Live from Las Vegas, Nevada, it's the Cube at HP Discover 2014, brought to you by HP. Good morning from Las Vegas everybody, this is Dave Vellante and this is the Cube. The Cube is Silicon Angles flagship production, we're here live at HP Discover. We go out to events like HP Discover and many others, we extract the signal from the noise. We've been passing a lot on the server business last night, we saw Antonio Neary unveil a new system from HP, a new water cooled system that we're going to talk about a little bit. I'm very excited because I've seen water cooled go full circle from the, well predated even my entrance into the computer industry but now it's back and what you're going to see is very interesting. Alan Andreoli is here, he's the Vice President and General Manager of the Density Optimized and Service Provider and HPC Business at HP and John Gromala, John we were talking off camera I think it's the 7th time, maybe 8th time you've been on the Cube, so welcome gentlemen. Thanks, good to see you guys. So Alan I want to start with you, talk a little bit about this group that you run, it's the Hyper Scale Group essentially, talk about its mission and how you're going after that market. There is a revolution taking place in the world of computing, it's Hyper Scale, so you are moving from traditional enterprise applications to more and more service providers, enterprise high performance computing and then the private cloud in the enterprise, this is driving a new generation of data centers, so the organization that we have created concentrates around the key aspects of this transformation. We have a product line that is density optimized computing that really tackles with the needed higher density for the compute and then we have two vertical markets, one which is service providers for the cloud, for the web and one which is high performance computing and these two segments are the fastest growing ones in the whole market and they are together moving from one side of the market today to over half of the market in the next two to three years and this is what our group is leading for HP servers. So Hyper Scale, we talk a lot about Hyper Scale on the cube, we've noticed that a lot of the Hyper Scale trends are starting to bleed into the enterprise, in fact some folks have said if you want to know what's going to happen to the enterprise, look what's happening inside of these giant Hyper Scale companies if you can peek inside and parts of it will seep into that enterprise, do you buy that premise? It's a kind of a circle if you wish, we're talking about a circle for water cooling, we can talk about water cooling later on, but it's the same for the Hyper Scale momentum. It started with the largest providers of the cloud, all who provide very very optimized and unique monolithic workloads, the Google's, the Amazon, the Facebook, the Microsoft and then the ones a little smaller, what we call the tier two service providers are looking at what they are doing and then the tier three's are looking at the tier twos and then the enterprises who are also building Hyper Scale clusters are looking at what the service providers are doing. So you have this kind of pervasion in the market of the Hyper Scale happening that starts from the largest Hyper Scale providers, the service providers. Yeah, so that's a good way to look at it. So the tier one guys, a lot of people say it's a race to zero, I personally don't think it is, it's massive volumes, huge innovation and then the tier two and the tier three service providers in Hyper Scale are competing with the Amazons and the Googles by specializing in areas where they may not and then enterprises, some of the enterprises, particularly financial services, are looking at what's going on in that Hyper Scale site, saying maybe we can drive similar efficiencies. It's a very interesting market dynamic. Specifically you've got a situation where the true, the large scale Hyper Scale guys, they'll spend a lot of PhD time to save money over the long term, whereas the average enterprise doesn't have that capability, they'll spend money to save time. So there are clearly differences, but one of the things that we notice, maybe let's say five or six or seven years ago, conventional wisdom said that the Hyper Scale guys will just use commodity components and have the software defined, what's now called software defined, on top of it, high degrees of automation and now you're seeing that change a little bit. They're going highly customized. So what will happen in the enterprise? Will the enterprise go in that similar cycle? Commodity, software defined, that's what you're hearing now. A lot of talk about it, and then eventually come back to highly customized. HP knows a lot about customization. What are your thoughts on that? It's all about segmentation. The answer is yes and yes. So I think that we are really cracking the code here at HP of what the market needs to be successful in this transformation. On one hand you have the people who want to go to customization and ultra commoditization of the architecture around their workload. And that's why we have done this disruptive John Venture with Foxconn. What we're going to be able to provide is bare metal, customized to the needs of the biggest service providers on the planet and beyond. So for the people who go for customization of the hardware for massive workloads, we will be the vendor with no way, how scale can be matched end to end. The HP brand and the power of Foxconn behind in terms of supply chain and chip engineering. For the enterprise side, there is a need for innovation. Some of them want to use bare metal, but some of them want some unique solutions to do. Compute solution with ultra performance, high density, and this is the Apollo product line. So we are going on the two fronts with a very differentiated approach and basically enterprises can choose which way they want to go, depending on the level of capabilities that they want to build for the future. We talk about it in terms of workload optimized and there are differences in those workloads between enterprise and those largest tier one, tier two customers. So especially the enterprises, they want the benefits of those scale out systems that hyper scale. But they still have some different requirements and manageability and the enablement of things like OpenStack and where that's going, are key enablers that will take place over the next few years as well. Well, that's a great point because the average age of the enterprise application is probably 15 to 20 years. Absolutely. The average, whereas a Google or a Facebook, I mean a lot of people say they have one app, maybe one main app and a lot of little apps around it, but a whole different paradigm, isn't it? So how do you, what parts of the hyper scale service that enterprise sort of application portfolio? And what parts are new maybe around the edge that maybe they're developing mobile apps? I wonder if you could talk about that dynamic a little bit. Well, it's even a case, let's take HPC as an example. HPC used to be something that was more government and academic in terms of where it was prominent. And it has really started expanding where it's a key tool for enterprises now. And that has all those same hyper scale characteristics. It's a key piece of how you deal with those things. So we can take all of those benefits and apply it to how engineering, technical folks do their core work and what they're doing with a lot of the new platforms that we've built. And a lot of the big data stuff in HPC are kind of colliding as well. Correct, exactly. Both of those are benefits. So let's talk about some exciting stuff. I talked about water cool before. Dust off your thermodynamics, 101 engineers out there. You'll love this segment. So talk about inside of what you announced last night or unveiled last night. You've got a new system that's water cool. But we think water cool, we think chillers, right? We think frost on the outside of the pipes. Talk about the innovation that you guys have developed inside of Apollo. Go ahead, Johan. Yeah, well, so it's been four years in the making. We've been looking at the HPC market coming for potential explosion, like a second life for HPC. As John was saying, it used to be pretty specialized in academia and research and so on, government. And now it's going mainstream. So we said if this is going mainstream, it's got to be really disruptive in terms of technology and innovation. And the more power you put, the hotter it gets. So cooling is actually the first problem we've been trying to address. And you can see here our dry disconnect technology, which is unique. And I can maybe briefly explain the issue with water cooling is that you have risk of leakages on the electronics. With this technology, the water is going in the bus in the chassis, totally separated from electronics. And then you have a liquid here, which goes into vapor with the heats, get cooled down back into liquid here on the bus, and then back into vapor, it gets into the heat. And we have achieved an extreme efficiency with a ratio of 1.06 of energy utilization, which is totally unmatched. So that's the first innovation. Yeah, 1.0 is nirvana. 1.0 is possible to achieve, but it's perfect. One watt in, one watt out, impossible. So 1.06 means extreme efficiency. That's what we have achieved. Unless you're including the reuse though, you could actually go with PUs that are lower by having the reuse of the technology of the waste heat as well. So you get even greater efficiencies when you reuse a lot of the heat from that liquid cooling as well. Now, we were talking last night, this is not chilled water. How did you achieve that innovation? Yeah, again, it's about a warm water cooling. So you take air temperature water and actually put that in the system. Since the actual chips are running at a much higher temperature, you could use that difference in that temperature alone to go ahead and cool the system. And that is adequate to deliver the reliability and availability that you need. Absolutely, and different customers and vendors will actually decide whether they want to do just strict cooling of that or whether they want to reuse that heat. There's so many benefits in taking that warm water and reusing it to heat facilities or actually doing a lot of offsetting of energy that's used for other purposes. Where did this innovation come from? Was it inside of the server division R&D? Was it a collaboration with HP Labs? Can you talk about that a little bit? Both. It started from HP Labs who invented this kind of Dry Disconnect methodology. Yes, please. Okay.  Okay, so the ambient water comes in here and it's cool enough relative to the electronics. Yes, absolutely. And this liquid is kind of magic. You can kind of simulate, imagine that you have, and you can see these on the booth, imagine that you have an ice with glass and heat. You put one of these tubes, imagine these tubes would be straight. You put one of these tubes in the ice, immediately you feel the ice on your finger. You put a normal piece of metal, it will take a few seconds to go up and you will have a lot of dissipation of the cold. If you do it in a hot pot of water, you will have the same result very, very quickly. This is really breakthrough. And the material here is what? This is copper. It's copper, okay. But it's got a vacuum internal to it with the liquid, so you'll actually get to the point where that liquid will boil. You want to call it that change to vapor? And by changing from liquid to vapor, that actually uses a lot of energy and transfers it very effectively across that system. I want to ask you guys, short on time, but the OCP initiative out of Facebook, is that something that you guys are looking at, something that you're actually actively investing in, Yes, we are participating in the OCP movement. We have discussions and meetings and products available. We work with Rackspace, we work with Facebook, and we are trying to find ways where some segments of the market, probably in particular financial services, we find benefits in working with this type of architecture. Customers need to look at the overall cost of energy, total cost of energy, not individually the price of the product, but our John Venture with Foxconn will be supporting this type of generic services architecture. That's an OCP like architecture. OCP, WCS, and this type of. Yeah, yeah, okay, great. I think it's pure of a bigger trend towards overall open design principles. And we even have a session here at the event on OCP and those open design principles. Last question is how big, so if the enterprise market is X, I don't know, let's say X is 100 billion, what percent of that market is your, do your solutions, do you think attack? Is it a? 36 percent. That's your number. This year. That's your TAM. This year, yes. Okay, that's a TAM figure. Or the total market. 36 percent, that's a TAM. Your total available market is 36 percent of the overall enterprise market. That's a today statement though, isn't it a lot of work? That's a today statement. Today. So over time it's obviously going to increase quite dramatically. We believe it will pass 50 percent in 2017. So this is the future. You believe? I believe it too, by the way. I think these, I have one of the people who said, you want to know what's going to happen in the enterprise, look what's happening in hyperscale. And we will continue to have a very nice business and in the enterprise because traditional applications will continue and then there is a SME market which is not going to go hyperscale. Right. So you have SME, then you have traditional apps in the large enterprise, then you have HPC and these are different segments that you have to segment by workloads to understand where this is all going. But where the SMB market will go hyperscale is through the tier two, tier three cloud service providers, right, that will hop on this technology. Eventually, but not totally. Not tomorrow. Not totally and not everywhere. Excellent, that's a great segment. Thank you guys so much for coming on. We got to leave it there. Thank you Dave. Thank you very much. Thank you. All right, keep it right there. We'll be right back with our next guest. This is theCUBE, we're live from Las Vegas. Right back.


Matt is with me, Jay Fiedel, and Rabbi Itzhov Kresemchansky of Chabad, Hawaii. Welcome back, Rabbi! It's always nice to see you. It's spiritual uplifting for me. Thank you, Jay. Hopefully you won't disappoint you today. Let's talk about one thing before we get to the holiday theme we've been working on, and that is a movie called The Dibble Next Door. It's about John Demionnik, which is, I guess, a Polish name, I'm not sure. And Demionnik was living in Cleveland. He had married. He had a couple of kids. He went to church, Catholic.  And the United States was not going to try him, just deport him. And he wound up being deported to Israel, where they tried him, as Ivan the Terrible. Ivan the Terrible was famous in Treblinka, the prison camp. And he was really an awful human being. And he tortured people. He did horrible things to them. I don't even want to repeat on the air the kinds of things he did to them on the way to the crematorium. In other words, they would arrive on the train. And within a very short time, they were marched into the crematorium. And I guess some of them realized that this was not really a shower. It was the gas and cyclone too, was it? And they realized that they were going to their deaths. And they struggled. They complained. They tried to resist. And Ivan the Terrible was there with a bayonet. And he would bayonet them. He would cut them, cut their flesh off, cut people, do terrible things to them. In order to make it clear, they had to go in there now. So he was really awful. And a lot of the survivors, there was 77 survivors from Treblinka. A lot of survivors knew that the fight. He was Ivan the Terrible. So they brought this guy, Demianiek, who had lived in peace and tranquility in Cleveland since the war.  And they had a pretty aggressive defense counsel, Israeli defense counsel. They had an American, also defense counsel. Demianiek fired him in the middle of the trial. And they had a prosecutor who I thought was a very decent guy. And there were troubling issues about some of the documents and the testimony by the Israeli survivors. It was a very famous trial in Israel. Everybody was watching it. All the survivors were watching it on television. It was a televised trial. It was like Eichmann, but it was 20 years after Eichmann. 25 years after Eichmann. And it caught everybody's attention. So he was convicted and he was sentenced to hang, which is what the Israeli law said about war criminals of this nature. But at the last minute, there was additional evidence found that added on to reasonable doubt that he was not Ivan the Terrible. He always Ivan the Terrible, I think. And this was in addition to other evidence that caused you to have a little doubt about whether he was, in fact, this monster man. And there were photographs. There was descriptions in some of the writings and found in Germany. And it led to more doubt. And it went to the Supreme Court of Israel. And the Supreme Court of Israel said there was enough doubt to be reasonable doubt. And they reversed it. And they exonerated him. They exonerated him. He was found like guilty. Well, essentially, yeah. They found him not guilty, even though there was evidence that he had been a guard, a really nasty guard, in the nearby Sobibor in Poland, both of these camps from Poland. And so because of that, the courts in Israel decided, well, they took him on a deportation over the one charge, Ivan the Monster. It was really interesting. I mean, it's from a legal point of view, because there was evidence pointing both ways. But they acquitted him in the Supreme Court. And they reversed the deportation, sent him back to the US where he joined his family. And he was living there for, I don't know, a while, years. When the US attorney for Cleveland found other evidence, suggest that he was also a really bad guard in Sobibor. So although he wasn't Ivan in Treblinka, he was Ivan or a bad guard. His name was, middle name was Ivan. So they did another deportation to Israel. Yeah, second deportation. And this was, I guess, later on, a few years later, maybe the 90s. And successfully deported him this time to Germany to stand trial in Germany. And Germany convicted him of being a monster guard in Sobibor. But he appealed that. And while the appeal was pending, it tended for a long time. And he was in jail in Germany. He died.  So he died an unconvicted man. By the way, the Israeli survivors were just wild about this.  Really upset the country. And that's the end of the story. This is a documentary called The Devil Next Door. And it's about this. It's five episodes on Netflix. It is a very well done documentary. I saw it last night. All five? Yeah. All five? Yeah, I binged on it. Somebody advised me about this. I pinched on it. Well, in the morning, in the paper, just so happens. Today, today, Rabbi, there was an article. I think it was at times, or the post, or maybe the Guardian. And it's about Poland, the prime minister of Poland. Now, you know there's a law in Poland that says anybody who claims that Poland was involved in the killing of the Jews is guilty of a crime. So if you say that the Polish people were responsible in any way for the, you know. And this is anti-Semitic law. Sure, just because the reality is that the Poles were as vicious. Many Poles were as vicious as the Nazis. Yeah, yeah. Anyway, so the prime minister sees this thing on Netflix. I guess they get Netflix there. And he's making a global statement against Netflix for making the movie. Because, and I have to read it again, but because the movie includes the fact that there were at least these two camps in Poland, Treblinka and Sobibor. It's really all about those two death camps. And he says, you can't say that.  We didn't have that. And he's like denying the whole Holocaust. He's denying these death camps existed in Poland. Incredible. Today, right now, the prime minister of Poland, I can't tell you how I feel about Poland.  Truth helps. And we need to have truth all around us. And he's saying that, oh, no, this wasn't true. And it's a violation of Polish law. So you're going to see more about this. You're going to see controversy about this. And if you have a chance, and I'm telling everybody, if you have a chance, take a look at this really well done documentary about their life. And fortune, misfortune. John Demioniuk. Auschwitz, was that in Poland? Auschwitz. I think that was in Germany. I think so, yeah, yeah. So anyway, you know, these controversies are alive. And one of the reasons they're alive is that there's plenty of anti-Semitism in Europe. And it becomes very, and in the US, I might add. And it becomes, you know, newsworthy. It becomes, it generates controversy. Good for Netflix for covering this. Not to say, you know, that Netflix did not, was just reporting the news. This was, and hard to say, balanced. But this was just the facts, man, about what happened to him. And it raised all kinds of interesting questions about how did he get in the country? How did he slip through after 1945? Was he the only one? He worked at the Ford Motor Company. And there was a suggestion that Ford had allowed others like him to participate, lead quiet lives, making cars, in Cleveland in this case. Maybe other cities, too. So we have a serious anti-Semitic problem that existed in the 1930s, in the 1940s, after the war, after it was clear what they had done. And I suggest that hasn't really stopped. And it goes to a discussion I always want to have with you about the status of anti-Semitism. You know, we put these videos up there on YouTube.  I sent one to you this week.  You know, we said never again, because 6 million people perished in an awful holocaust. And still, it's not never again. It's again. Well, you don't have to go further than what's happening to Israel today, the BDS movement and the whole anti-Israel is really another form of anti-Semitism. The UN is riddled with anti-Semitism. Alice, can you explain all of those actions taken against the one single country, Israel? I think there's more resolutions against Israel than against all other countries in the world combined, including all the horrible countries that we know, like Iran and North Korea and the people from BDS. And that's a whole new story. You and I had a show about that a couple of years ago. They don't complain against those other countries, just against Israel. The one civilized country in the area, the one country that doesn't involve itself in hate, violence, all that. What are we going to do, Rabbi? This is very disturbing, because when I was a kid, it was all about never again. It was about making the desert bloom in Israel in the Kibbutzim. It was about making a safe haven for Jews about never again. And so much literature, so many movies have been made. And yet, there were those people today, 2019, who deny it happened. Anti-Semitism is a very, very fascinating phenomena. It's been around forever. It has, the motivation for anti-Semitism has been everything under the sun, user to rich, poor, to smart, to communist, to capitalist. It's really a very inexplicable hatred that's hard to be explained. You're right, we have to fight it. And for us Jewish people, what's equally important is that we as Jews need to learn to define ourselves, not by the fact that they hate us, the fact that we have to cling together, but by embracing the positive elements of Judaism, the teachings of the Torah, and what we learn about our unique relationship with God, the love of God to the Jewish people, the people in general. And that has to be the bedrock of our identity, not the fact that they hate us, and how do we deal with it? We become victims now. And I mean, from time to time, there have been responses by Jewish people that think of the Warsaw ghetto and other places and situations where the Jews have rebelled, retaliated, rebelled. Well, for sure we have to retaliate and do everything we can to stop it wherever it rears its ugly head. But at the same time, what I'm saying is that that cannot become our whole identity, our response to that hatred. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So much value in Judaism and being Jewish and the Jewish community and the Jewish traditions, so much value. We have to hold on to that, not only perpetuate it, but enjoy it. And I know you're into that. So let's stop talking about that movie. The movie is The Devil Next Door. You can find it on Netflix. I would urge you to take a look at it. Because in this movie, there's footage that will put to rest any possible denial of the Holocaust. Footage I have not seen yet until this movie. Netflix found it. And there are gross things in this movie that show you what the Germans were doing and the Poles were doing in these camps, the Jews. OK, let's talk about holidays. We have a sort of a vacation from holidays lately. A low in the holidays, yes. We had just come off the month of Tishrei, which is the month packed with holidays, beginning with the high holy days, Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur, and the Jewish Festival of Sukkis, the east of the Tabernacle, which culminated with Simcha's Torah, dancing and rejoicing with the Torah. And that was one of my favorite ones, Simcha's Torah. In my neighborhood, they did it in the street. They walked in the street with the Torahs, too.  Yes, yes, still happening today. And then we enter into a quiet period, which in the Hebrew calendar this month is called Cheshvin. And it's unique from all the other Jewish months in the calendar in that there's no holiday throughout the entire month. Almost every other, actually every other Jewish month in the calendar has one special day. Either it's a holiday or a national day of mourning, like Tish above, or another fast day. But the month of Cheshvin has no holidays at all. So you go from this high to this very extreme low. It's a holiday from holidays. Maybe they were leaving room for a Veterans Day in the US. But actually what's interesting is that in the Jewish tradition, the holidays are singular days within the calendar. But they're meant to infuse all the other days of the year with its special holiday holy day, the special holiness with the message of that holy day. And our task is to take that message into the regular days and to imbue the regular days with meaning and purpose and holiness. So we serve God in the synagogue, the Sabbath, prayer and Torah study or the holiday. We also can and should serve God on the regular day when we work, when we go through our daily activities. If they're motivated by a higher purpose, then it all becomes service to God. If they're motivated by ego and greed and whatever else, then it's nothing more than something passing. But it's an opportunity to integrate the lessons of the faith in the Jewish New Year. That is, as you say, those are the high holidays. And now maybe we just think about that a little bit. Let it soak in. That's true. These days, the holidays are days that are charged with different holidays with different spiritual energies. For example, the holiday of Simcha Torah. We just mentioned your favorite holiday. And Sukkis in general is referred to as a time for rejoicing. So where do we draw happiness every day of the year? We draw it from this holiday. And if we don't take from the holiday and apply it to every day, we're missing the point of the holiday. Yeah, yeah. So much to learn from holidays.  You can't forget the origin and the meaning of the holiday. That's the value of having holidays in any culture that you have this repeating experience every year. And you are reminded of why it was made a holiday in the first place. Correct. Always a reason. Correct. And what's so part and parcel of the Jewish religion is mentioned time and time again in the Torah. And it's related to what you just said is all of these, many of these holidays the Torah says is just so that the generation shall remember. That we have to remember what happened in the past in order for us to appreciate the present and work towards the future. It's all about remembering. It's about being global too. And for example, I'm reminded of another movie about black Jews in Ethiopia, that the Mossad spirited out of Ethiopia back in the Monaco, actually. And they were conducting the same holidays. They were celebrating the same holidays that any Jew anywhere else does, even though they were black and even though there were variations on the theme. But it's of some comfort to know when you're celebrating Simchastora that Jews around the world are celebrating Simchastora. It brings us together. Right. And there's a saying from one of the famous rabbis who lived in the 12th century. It's named Rapsadje Gohan. And he writes, this famous saying is that more than the Jewish people have kept the Shabbos, Shabbos has kept the Jewish people. The fact that, especially in our day and age, when people travel all the time, the fact that you can travel to anywhere in the world, if you're there on a Friday or on a Shabbos, you just plug in. And it's the same as it is all over the world. It's a global thing. The aspera has separated us, but it also keeps us together. So let's talk about Hanukkah, because it's coming up. It's not too far away. Thanksgiving in the European and Western culture. And then bingo, you have Hanukkah, which is my second favorite holiday, because my parents gave me things on Hanukkah. Can you talk about it? Hanukkah is this year, I'm not sure exactly, but it's coming up in December. And it is a holiday that commemorates a great miracle that happened to the Jewish people during the time of the second temple in Jerusalem. The Jews were under the rule of the first temple in Jerusalem. Excuse me, let me just orient myself. This is the first temple in Jerusalem when the Greek-Syrian were in charge at that time. And the Greek, I'm confused, is the second or first temple? I think it's the second temple. OK, second temple. So they tried to, there's two holidays that commemorate miracles of survival. One is the Festival of Purim, which is later on in the year. And one is the Festival of Hanukkah. A Purim happened right after the first temple was destroyed, and Hanukkah happened during the second temple period. And at the time of Purim, there arose a leader, Haman, who wanted to annihilate all the Jewish people, man, woman, and child. Like in our generation, Germany, the Nazis, Hitler, as we were talking about before, they were seeking to annihilate the Jewish people. The Greeks were different. Their problem was not the Jewish people. Their problem was the Jewish way of life, Judaism. And they were seeking to snuff out Judaism. They issued decrees that made it forbidden the Jews to practice the Sabbath, to practice circumcision. They wanted to Hellenize the Jewish people, that the Jewish people should buy into the Greek culture. The problem is that the Greek culture and the Jewish culture are a clash of culture. Because the Greek culture deifies man and man and the intellect, philosophy. And in Judaism, it's all about God, which is higher than reason. And there was this clash. Their inability to accept what the Jewish Torah teaches, that we surrender to a higher authority. To them, that was very wrong. There was this clash of these two cultures. And they issued all these decrees. And they eventually conquered Jerusalem and went into the temple and contaminated. They brought in idol worship at the temple. There was a small group of Jewish people led by an elderly high priest. They were called the Maccabees. Maccabee in Hebrew is an abbreviations for the word mika mehob elimashem, which is a phrase from the Torah, which means who, like you, who is as strong as Hashem, as God, God being the strongest. They rallied many Jewish people. And they led an uprising against a powerful, mighty Greek Syrian army. And the miracle of Hanukkah is that they were victorious.  But their faith in God and their willingness and readiness to sacrifice everything. It's one of those pushback examples, isn't it? Yeah. Like what you mentioned earlier, before we went on air, the war saw uprising, even though that the Jews were outnumbered and outgunned. But they kept them at bay for a long, long time. This Hanukkah is a festival of lights. Correct. Has a lot to do with light. Right. And I'm sorry I didn't mention that. So what happened was after the Jews were victorious in the military front, they entered into the temple and they cleaned it out. And they rededicated the temple. And one of the things that was done in the Jewish temple was they would light the candelabra, the menorah. But the menorah required to have oil. And it had to be pure. It couldn't be defiled. But all the oil that was left in the temple was not pure. Until they found one jug of oil that was only enough to last for one night. And it would take them another seven days to replenish it with pure oil. They nevertheless went ahead and they lit the menorah. And the miracle of Hanukkah is that the oil that was only enough to last for one night burned for eight nights. And that's why we have eight days of Hanukkah. And we celebrate this as a very joyous time. And what's fascinating is that the emphasis of this holiday is not the military victory, but the miracle of the lights. The miracle of the lights. Even though one would think that the miracle of the lights is like an incidental side story to the big miracle of the military victory. So we meet next time, Rabbi. I want to go into greater detail on how Hanukkah is celebrated here at the Renean. What it means, the timing, because it's not the same thing as Christmas. And how it has changed, if at all, over the years. In the Christmas season in the US, Christmas affects everything. And so we need to explore how Hanukkah and Christmas get along. And what actually is funny, because this is something which is the Rebbe, the Babach Rebbe, brought to the world. And that is the Talmud says that the Hanukkah lights are different than the Shabbos candles that are lit Friday night. Friday night, we are also instructed to light the candles. The women are instructed to light the candles. That's done in the house. Hanukkah, you're meant to publicize the miracle. So you light the menorah at the window or at the door in front of the house. You're supposed to go out to public to publicize God's miracle to the public. Rebbe came out about 40 years ago less to bring the menorahs to public squares and to the outside. And that's why you have all these menorah lightings all around the world. Oh, sure. I know you do that. So I wish this show was like the miracle of the lights. But unfortunately, it only lasts so long. OK. We'll continue next time. We're going to have to explore more about Hanukkah the next time, because I think there's plenty to discuss. With pleasure. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Have a good show. Crescent. Thank you. Come out of Hawaii. Thank you. Aloha. Bye.


For ailments, chronic ailments like diabetes, hypertension, cardiac ailments, asthma, allergies, obesity, eating disorders and many of these kinds which are all essentially generated from within, all these things can be quelled from within if only we are willing to pay a certain level of attention to the innermost dimension of who we are. If only you found access to that, health is not even something that you have to struggle with. The inner engineering process is just about this, that you find access to this deepest dimension of intelligence and competence within ourselves and this is definitely a way to create a healthful life.


Well, thank you for inviting me, Dion. This talk isn't very long. I gave it once, so I know it should be only about 10, 15 minutes. So if any of you wants to stand up and deliver a five minute harangue about the finetti, like the guy at my last talk, then you'll have plenty of time. The talk wasn't for a networks conference, so I have this slide explaining about networks. I'm just dealing with undirected networks here. That's all I want to say about that. The problem that I got was we have a network, and each node in it has an attitude score, which is given to us between 0 and 10. But we don't know the attitude scores for most of the nodes. So one of the problems is that I don't know what the data represents, but I assume you could think of it as being a network of criminals and the attitudes how bad they are, something like that. And what we want to do, we don't know the attitude score to many of the nodes, so I want to guess what those should be, and that's called imputation. So there are various reasons why this is difficult. In this particular case, so as I said, I'm not too sure what the data is supposed to represent because it's secret. Now, I don't know what a typical data set looks like because I only had one example data set that was declassified enough to play with. And for that data set, we only have 395 nodes and 272 of the attitude scores are missing. So that's quite a lot of missing attitude scores in this network. And most importantly, the client wants to know for some reason what the attitude score should be for missing nodes, but I don't know why they want to know. And obviously, if you don't have the final thing that you're trying to find out in mind when you're doing it, it's not clear how you should proceed. It makes it more challenging. So welcome to the floak and dagger world of international tax. Very exciting. So my approach, rather than using the data because I didn't have very much, was to do a model based on general theory and then give it to the client and see whether it was useful. So certainly, because we have a network here, it must be expected that your attitude is somehow related to the attitude of the people to whom you're connected. So we want to use that in some way. Now, there's this standard model for how an epidemic spreads on a network, which is that it goes through time. At each particular time step, the nodes in your network is either infected or not infected. So it's just a 0-1 thing. And then the probability for you of being infected in the next time step is given by the number of your neighbors who are infected if you're not infected already. So that's an idea for how an epidemic spreads on a network. I think it's quite a standard model. And hopefully, you could treat these attitude scores as maybe the probability that you're infected, something like that. So the attitude scores are in the range from 0 to 10. So we could think of them as normalized on the interval from 0 to 1. And maybe we could use a model like this in some way to try and find out what the missing attitude score should be. You can't directly use this model because it doesn't make sense in the context of the problem. But what I did was just use it as inspiration. So I thought maybe if we knew the probabilities of everyone being infected, or which were the infected individuals, we could think of our attitude scores as coming from that when it was advanced by one time step into the future. So that was the idea behind this. So what we do is we assume we have some measure of degree of infection with values in the interval from 0 to 1 for each of the nodes in our network.  So that's what this is saying. And those have been normalized. They lie in the range from 0 to 10, which is what we wanted. So the idea is you find these RIs, which are sort of latent information, and then reconstruct the attitude score from those. And this will give you an attitude score for every node, not just the ones which you already had. So you choose the RIs in such a way that they generate the attitude scores that you have. And then from the same RIs, you try and reconstruct the attitude scores of the missing, the nodes for which the attitude is missing. This is a very simple model, because you can express the attitude scores just as a matrix times the RIs. So the idea is we find the RIs. And then this matrix is known because it's just given by part of the adjacency matrix that I graph. And then once we find the RIs, we can use the equation from the previous slide to get the attitude scores from the missing nodes. So to find the RIs, we have to solve this problem. We want a matrix B times R is equal to A, with the constraint that the RIs have to be between 0 and 1. It's quite easy to solve. I didn't realize, but it's a convex problem. So you just need to find a local minimum, and it will be a global minimum. So you can do that numerically. There's probably a better way of doing it, but I haven't found out about that yet. And then you impute your missing attitude scores like that. And what's good about it is if you start it from a random choice of RIs and then find the minimizer, then, for example, if you had a node that was completely separate from the rest of the network, its RI would never be affected. So by starting with random starting points, you can get a feel for how uncertain the results are. For example, if you're completely uncertain, then you'll find if you do it maybe 100 or 1,000 times, you'll get a uniform distribution for the attitude scores for that particular node. So that's quite convenient. Here's an example. It's not real data. It's just a simulated network where I've randomly put in some attitude scores. So here the red ones are the ones with high attitude scores, and the very green ones are the ones with low attitude scores. And then I've left out a bunch of attitude scores, and this is what the result is of the imputation. So if you look at it, you should see that most of them look reasonably sensible. Like for example, this one here is quite brown here. The one next to it is sort of reddish-browns. That's probably OK. It doesn't perfectly reconstruct the original attitude scores, but it's pretty close. And anyway, we don't really want to measure it using in-sample performance, but obviously we like it to match the ones we've already seen. So that's basically how it works. And the real problem was how to evaluate the results, because as I said, we only had one data set. So all I could really do was give it to the client and ask if it was OK. Now, one thing is we're actually fitting all these RIs. So there are n of those, one for each node in the network. So that is going to be a massively overfitted model. So just looking at how well it fits the known attitude scores is not going to be very useful because it will probably fit them quite well. Usually, we measure the performance of the algorithm using cross-validation in some way. But so for example, we take a network, give it some attitude scores, delete some of them, and then see if we could recover the deleted ones, or how well we could recover the deleted ones. But in this case, that's going to be quite tough, because there's only one example. I'm not too sure how you should do this with network data, what you should actually be deleting. So I was a bit confused about that, so I didn't really do that. And then importantly, we also want to think about how we should evaluate the performance of our imputation method anyway. Like, is it as good as a 7 or not? Sum of squared errors isn't very useful as a measure of how well it performs, because if you square the error, everything is going to come out to be a 5, basically, because you're only looking at values between 0 and 10. And sum of absolute errors is problematic for other reasons. And also, maybe the end user doesn't even care. They might just categorize things as small, medium, or big. They might not care where it is on a scale from 0 to 10. So you have to think about that as well. But all that being said, it was OK. As far as I know, the feedback I got was it will be a real practical use straight away. So I was quite happy that it turned out to be useful, which was the main thing. Yeah, so that's all I wanted to say. Thanks. Well, I think it's a social-looking network, sort of scale-free with a core of highly connected individuals and then some preferential attachment type things. So I'm expecting that it will be applied to similar networks. And the one I tried to simulate here was sort of like that. I just started by simulating a network with preferential attachment, and it didn't look very good. So I started sticking edges in the middle there, and then it became a bit of a mess. So I stopped before. I wanted to make sure it had some of these tendrils sticking out. I think that's the kind of network that it might be applied to. Attitudes and extricent agents, whether you thought of using information about the connections between your neighbors, so me knowing five bad guys may not take my attitude as much as me knowing a group of five guys who are all of a gang. Yeah, that's a great idea. And the original version, I think, that the guy was doing was using network statistics. And I certainly think we could probably incorporate that as well and use more than one model. So that's what he was originally doing. But I don't know if it was quite the same as yours, but he was using all these things like clustering coefficients and things to try and do the imputation. You can imagine that there's two very different explanations probably both going on for the attitude. One is that the connections are formed between the other would be that they're actually emulating. And both your model seems to allow both interpretations. But if you thought about which way you might, whether you would want to adjust the model in different directions, if you thought of this as more of the connections are useful just because their individuals are likely to have core data characteristics typically form that work in that way or because they're actually influencing each other? Well, it's very hard to tell not knowing what kind of data it's going to be applied to. That's the big problem. Certainly if we knew, I'm sure whatever data set it will be applied to will be coming from somebody who knows a lot about the subject area. So they might be able to choose a model based on that kind of knowledge. But the way I was presented with the problem, it might not even be about tax. In fact, I think the networks come from the police, but I'm not totally sure. So yeah, the lack of the main knowledge is a big problem. I'm sure if we had some more of that available then we could find a better model. Yeah, I mean if you were actually using it to catch criminals. There was a tuning parameter in the formula, but I just said it to be one. Yeah? One is a nice number. Sorry? Well, I think if it was zero then it would just be a free for all, right? So that sort of measures the amount, the extent to which you're influenced by your neighbors. If you made this beta very large, then the influence of the neighbors is, well, I did try it with beta being infinity, actually, because I left out this RI term. That model wasn't so good. I got feedback about both of those. So the beta equals infinity and beta equals one versions I actually presented to the client. And we preferred the one with this extra term here. We could look at large values of beta that were bigger than one, maybe, and think about increasing the influence of the neighbors. There's a huge number of pieces of information that are missing from the beta model that if you're able to ask for one more, would you go and ask for something in general, like what is this network describing? So that's not actually giving you that map of information that's telling you maybe about the process. And all you'd be asking is if it's in there. No, I think probably the main knowledge is the most important thing in any statistical problem. So that would be the one thing. It's pretty extreme, isn't it? It's hard enough in social network research to get beta. There's a lot of proprietary stuff from the manual company when we get the problem straight. I don't know. That would be more effective, though. If you finish with a crash, we'll thank Richard again.


Greetings from the National Archives flagship building in Washington, D.C., which sits on the ancestral grounds of the Nacoch tank peoples. I'm David Ferriero, Archivist of the United States, and it's my pleasure to welcome you to today's virtual author lecture with Annette Gordon-Reed, author of On Juneteenth. Before we begin, I'd like to tell you about two upcoming programs you can view on our YouTube channel. On Tuesday, June 8th at 7 p.m., former President George H.W. Bush's chief of staff, Jean Becker, will tell us about her book on the Bush post-presidency, The Man I Knew. Joining Jean in conversation is Warren Finch, director of the George Bush Presidential Library. And on Wednesday, June 9th at 1 p.m., we'll present a program in partnership with the U.S. Association of Former Members of Congress entitled Can Congress Reform Itself Again? Our moderator will be Librarian of Congress Carla Hayden, and panelists will include current and former members of Congress. The celebration of Juneteenth for long a solely Texas event has spread across the country in recent years. The name, a combination of June and 19th, derives from the June 19, 1865 military order that declared an end to slavery in Texas. U.S. Major General Gordon Granger issued General Order No. 3, which unambiguously declared, the people of Texas are informed that in accordance with the proclamation from the executive of the United States, all slaves are free. Juneteenth is the oldest known celebration commemorating the end of slavery in the United States, but until last year no one had thought to ask about its documentary origin. It had long been available and consulted in its printed form, but last summer a NARA employee's question led us to the original handwritten order. This landmark document of freedom was digitized and is now available on the National Archives catalog. And that Gordon Reed's new book on Juneteenth tells the sweeping story of Juneteenth's integral importance to American history. In a recent review in the Washington Post, Dana Raimi Berry wrote, Gordon Reed offers a timely history lesson. She does so with beautiful prose, breathtaking stories, and painful memories. And that Gordon Reed is the Carl M. Loeb University professor at Harvard. She has won 16 book prizes including the Pulitzer Prize in History and the National Book Award for the Hemmingses of Monticello. Professor Gordon Reed was the Vivian Harmsworth visiting professor of American history at the University of Oxford in 2014 to 2015. Between 2010 and 2015 she was the Carol K. Fortzheimer professor at the Radcliffe Institute for Advanced Study at Harvard University. She has been president of the Society of Historians of the Early American Republic and is the current president of the Ames Foundation. A selected list of her honors include a fellowship from the Dorothy and Louis B. Cullman Center for Scholars and Writers at the New York Public Library, a Guggenheim Fellowship in the Humanities, a MacArthur Fellowship, the National Humanities Medal, the National Book Award, the Frederick Douglass Book Prize, and the George Washington Book Prize. She was elected fellow of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences in 2011 and was a member of the Academy's Commission on the Humanities and Social Sciences. In 2019 she was elected as a member of the American Philosophical Society. Joining Professor Gordon Reed in conversation tonight is Roy Young, the president and chief executive of the Montpelier Foundation, which operates James Madison's Historic Home in Virginia. He most recently served as a business consultant to Winterthur Museum, Garden and Library in Delaware and currently co-chairs the Historic House and Sites Network at the American Alliance of Museums. Prior to that he was vice president for guest experience at George Washington's Mount Vernon and has held leadership positions at Fallingwater Western Pennsylvania Conservancy and at the University of Arizona Museum of Art and Visual Archives. Now let's hear from Annette Gordon Reed and Roy Young. Thank you for joining us today. Thank you very much and welcome. It's a pleasure to see you all this evening. Thanks for joining us. I'm Roy Young and that and I are joined tonight by Elizabeth Chew, the executive vice president and chief curator at Montpelier. We're also joined by Reverend Brown from the Orange County African American Historical Society and Mary Minkoff, the curator of archaeological collections at Montpelier. It is a pleasure to partner with the National Archives and Professor Gordon Reed to present this program this evening. You may ask yourself, why is James Madison's Montpelier involved? We are, we believe, the only presidential home of plantation and former site of enslavement that hosts an annual Juneteenth celebration, which we have done for the past six years in partnership with the Orange County African American Historical Society. We are also a place that deals in the whole truth of American history in the way that Professor Gordon Reed stresses so eloquently in her book On Juneteenth. This evening, Elizabeth Chew and I will pose some questions about the book to Professor Gordon Reed for about 25 minutes. Then we'll open up for a small panel discussion to include Reverend Brown and Mary Minkoff to discuss Juneteenth, ways that it is commemorated and celebrated currently, and the future of Juneteenth as a national holiday. Then if time allows, we'll move to questions and answers from the audience. Once again, thank you so much for joining us, and we'll start with a question from Elizabeth. Elizabeth? Roy, and good evening, Professor Gordon Reed. It is such a pleasure to be here with you this evening. Your book is just a wonderful weaving together of the history of Texas and of the celebration of Juneteenth and the history of Juneteenth in Texas with the story of your family and your personal story. I'm wondering if you could tell us a little bit about why you wrote the book and what prompted you to write it. Well, thank you, Elizabeth. My kind words about the book. I've thought about writing a book about Texas for a very long time. My editor, Bob Wild at LiveWrite, has been after me to write a big book about Texas, a big book of Texas history. I write about Virginia and slavery and all of that, and why not write about my home state. This past year, during the midst of the pandemic, I was thinking about an article that I had written for The New Yorker about Juneteenth, about the holiday itself, and I talked a little bit about how we celebrated it when I was growing up. The year before that, I had written a review of five books about Texas for the New York review of books and the combination of writing those two things. And I think being in the pandemic, thinking about the possibility, I mean, what it meant to, you know, thinking about my family and how my parents who are no longer living, how they would have responded to the crisis, the pandemic. It made me think a lot about my past, and I thought that we thought this would be a good time for me to write something shorter than we originally thought about doing. But some essays that would allow me to explore Texas history and my family all together, a book of essays, something that would be accessible to large numbers of people that would still give history, but also give me a chance to do the kind of writing that I've always wanted to do. More essays, more personal kinds of things, which historians don't typically get a chance to do. For people who may not know this, could you talk a little bit about the history of Juneteenth itself, how you as a child in Texas celebrated Juneteenth? Well, Juneteenth commemorates the day that General Gordon Granger came to Galveston after the Army of the Trans-Mississippi had finally surrendered. Lee surrendered, the Army of Northern Virginia surrendered in April, but they kept fighting in the Southwest. They finally give up at the beginning of June, which gave Granger the opportunity to go to Galveston and make this declaration. And ever since that year, there have been celebrations in Texas of that. In the 1870s, four black men pulled their resources and bought land in Houston to celebrate this, a park, specifically for the purpose of celebrating Juneteenth. And then people celebrated in their homes. It's sort of like the Fourth of July in a way, but for black people until it became a state holiday in Texas. And then lots of people, people of all races celebrated it. But it was a day of commemoration, a day of picnicking, those kinds of things. Firecrackers, I remember we had those. It's hard for me to imagine that I played with firecrackers when I was below 10 years old. It's something I would never let my kids do, but those were different times. So it was a day of celebration. And I think the older people in my family reflected probably more than I did as a kid on the meaning of it. Because my great-grandmother was alive until I was about 11 years old.  And so my great-grandmother knew someone who had been enslaved and probably knew a good number of people who were. So that day meant something to them. For us, it was more for kids. It was a day of fun and eating and drinking soda, what we call soda water down in the south, drinking too much of that when I was a kid. So it was a serious day, a serious thing happened, but it became for me at least as a child, it was more a day of fun and recreation. One thing that really intrigued me was the red soda water. Why was it red? Well, you know, I don't know. I have since learned that there was also strawberry pie. And what people say is that it reflected the blood that was shed in slavery. I don't know if that's true or not. You know, as well as I do with all these various holidays and commemorations, things get added on to this. You know, that's the thing that is said that red was supposed to be about the blood of people lost during slavery, but that was it. And goat, we didn't eat goat, but that was another one of the dishes that was thrown into it. And in high Texas fashion, as I mentioned in the book, my grandmother who made tamales would take orders from people. It was a holiday food and for Juneteenth, so it was barbecue and soda and tamales and other kind of southern cuisine as well thrown into it. So it was food. Food was a big part of all of it. That's such a magical weaving together of African American food in Texas. Yes, exactly. I mean, it's a strange thing to think of the melding cultures in Texas. One of the things I talk about in the book is how there's a conception of Texas as a white man, essentially, because you think of cowboys. And even though we know cowboys, many of the cowboys were black, but the Hollywood version of cowboys and oil men, that kind of thing. But Texas is black culture, white culture, Anglo culture, Latino culture, Indians all mixed together there. And they were from the very, very beginning. This is not some multiculturalism, it's not some new phenomenon to Texas. It's been there from the very, very beginning. I have a question that is far more from the perspective of family. And so I as well had my great-grandmother with me until I was almost 30 years old. And it seems as if grandparents and parents have an amazing way of creating a world for you to be in. And so much of what we learn, we learn through them. And so I'm curious, in the book, I thought describing your life in Texas, your family in Texas, your upbringing in Texas, I thought that was really compelling. But one of the things that I thought might be interesting to explore is your ideas maybe at that age later in life now. What do you think with the factors that led to your parents being so idealistic about your education? When in that time period as well as now, there are so many barriers in terms of equal education for women and for blacks. Well, my parent is referring to the fact, referring to the fact that my parents decided to send me to a white school. I integrated the schools in our town and they were, and I discussed the fact that I think that by the time as the years were on, they were somewhat disillusioned with that process and they changed the reason they sent me to something more pragmatic. But I actually believe that they were idealistic. And they were idealistic because we were in the middle, this is the mid-60s, we're in the middle of, well, the end, the final culmination of all of the work that had been done. I wanted to say the 50s, but this whole process, the civil rights movement started long before then. The architecture of that was the 20s and the 30s and the 40s, but Brown versus Board of Education in 1954 and then later on the Civil Rights Act 64 and the Voting Rights Act. So this, I would have been going to school just at that particular time. They saw themselves, this was a generation of people who saw themselves as on the move. You know that this was a part of a journey that African-American people were on and they wanted to be a part of that and they wanted me to be a part of that. So that's how they decided to do it. It was against the backdrop of stuff that's going on all over the country at that time. Other people were integrating schools. As I said, the end of de jure segregation and public accommodations, all those kinds of things and they wanted to be a part of that. It's sort of an interesting thing to think of, but they were just moved by the spirit of the time. You mentioned finding out later that they had made sort of a quiet deal with the principal of the school. Yeah, and they basically said that this was going to proceed in a normal way, a low-key way. I wouldn't be escorted by any police officers or anything like that. No big deal would be made about it.  And I just started school seemingly in a normal way, not normal, totally, because I talk about the fact that there would be delegations of people, groups of people who would come and stand in the doorway to watch, to see and talk about how things were proceeding. And I knew that I was on display. I knew that this was a big deal. So, yeah, but nothing in the papers. I mean, I learned later there had been some threats against my family, but nothing serious, nothing came of any of that. And it was not an easy time, not an easy thing to do, but I did it. Looking back in hindsight, sort of like Ruby Bridges and Little Rock, how do you see your own experience? Well, it must have been like that. It was like that in my particular area. There was hostility towards the whole process, but I think it wasn't as dramatic, obviously, as the very first person who's doing this. But it was tough. My mother said that I broke out in hives at one point. I don't remember that. It's like everything, human beings, we sort of look back at our lives and we focus on the good things.  I had some friends. And my teachers, I would have to say my Mrs. Daughtry and my first great teacher, Mrs. Gilliland, my second great teacher, those were the real, you know, the formative moments time. They were just fantastic to me. And I don't wonder, and I didn't think of this until after the book. The book was written. I wondered if the fact that my mother was a teacher influenced the way they went about what they did. Maybe there was some sort of sisterly, some sort of camaraderie thing going on there, but they were wonderful to me. I never got a sense that they were treating me any differently than anybody else. They were enormously supportive of me. Some of the kids were great and some of the kids were not. But the teachers at the school and the principal uniformly couldn't have handled things better, I don't think. I love the idea, though, that your parents in creating this moment for you, for your family, that how brave they were to take on their world in that way. They convey to you that this was the way life was. This was how it was going to happen. I just think they were, as I said before, I think that they were buoyed by knowing that these kinds of things and other strides, other efforts were being made all over the country at that time. That was sort of the spirit of the moment. Well, you mentioned in the book how your hometown has changed. I wonder what you see as being the next critical change that needs to take place either in your hometown or places like your hometown to assist in our world continuing to evolve in the way that you emphasize it evolving when you and your parents were there. Well, I think the problems are tougher to solve at this point, I think, because the jury segregation, you know, their laws and you get rid of the laws. And that's one thing. What we're dealing with now is something a bit more amorphous. In a way, there's a tremendous problem with, I think, incarceration, over incarceration of African American people, particularly African American males. I know that countrywide, I mean nationwide, that's slowing down a bit. But alternatives to incarceration, something about the educational system, there has to be efforts to really bring people into society in a way and not see them as expendable. And one of the things that's happened in the town and in all those little towns in the south is with the problems with drugs. And these are not just blacks, but white people as well, depending upon what state is either meth or crack or other kinds of things or something. There's a sense of futility that many people have because of the system that we're in now that doesn't seem to have a place for people. That's a harder problem to solve than just getting rid of laws. So in some things, when I go back there, when I've gone back over the years, certainly socially it's easier to go places. I could go to the movie and I don't have to sit in the balcony. If I were to go to the doctor, I wouldn't go to a separate waiting room. Social relations are easier, but fundamentally the sort of fundamental racial hierarchy and the fundamental economic, the problem of economic inequality is there. And maybe even exacerbated compared to the past because there's not as much for people to do. You know, people worked in the sawmill before or people did those kinds, but there's no more sawmill on their service jobs and they're not jobs that people that allow people to feed a family or take care of their family. So we've got a lot to do in the country, not just on the on the racial front, certainly, but just in general. I'm hoping it involves all of us this time as opposed to just some of us. I have three beautiful grandchildren that are African and European descent. And they live in a very small town, which the school, the local school reports that they're they're brand new they just moved. But the local school reports that there is 0% diversity in the elementary school. And so these small towns really are very isolated still in many ways in terms of who lives there and who feels comfortable in living there. So I think I think books like yours help people realize that that this has been true for a long time and change can can happen. Yeah. Thank you. I certainly hope so. So just one more question for me. Both the Declaration of Independence and the Emancipation Proclamation state that all men are created equal. This phrase still is not always interpreted or referenced as all individuals. And I'm curious how you think should the change. I'm curious how we can change language in order to be more specific and to state our commitment to equality for every individual as an author as a lawyer curious to hear your thoughts on that on equality. Well, it's interesting because this relates to Juneteenth in that general order talks about equality. You know that that now these the former enslaved people would be, you know, equal should be considered equal to the people who enslaved them and of course, that raised a number of people who had come to count on this idea of ownership of people and a racial hierarchy. I just think we have to keep coming back to those words. I think one of the Du Bois said about this that African Americans have been the people of the foremost people who proponents of this because we were obviously left out of that. And we wanted to make the case for and make it sort of reiterate not to make the case for because it's obvious it's self evident, but to remind people that that we are human beings as well. You know, I think what we have to do is to keep working on this problem. We have to sort of reassert sort of reinsert these notions of equality into the way we deal with one another and to sort of reaffirm it is what I what I meant to say reaffirm it. I think it's, I think it holds up pretty well if people would live by it. And it's, you know, there are lots of reasons that people don't want to do that. I think, certainly, the legacy of slavery, which created and maintained a racial hierarchy that some people still want to live by makes that difficult. We have to keep hammering the point home. I mean, those words are considered to be America's creed. That's what we say in our more idealistic moments. And we just have to hold people's, you know, feet to the fire on this question and not give up on the importance of equality. Absolutely. Thank you. We have one more question for you before we move to the panel. So this line from the coda of your book really jumped out at me and you wrote love does not require taking an uncritical stance towards the objects of one's affections. In truth, it often requires the opposite. I'm someone and we at Montpelier are people who care very deeply about telling the public the whole truth about American history. And we want to tell the truth because we love this country, not because we hate it. It's related in your book, so much love and beauty in your family stories, including the celebration of Juneteenth, and so much pride in your community in Conroe, Texas. But you did not let us forget that Conroe was also a place where white men lynched, burned and shot black men without repercussion, and where your parents had to make a quiet deal for you to attend the school of your choice. So what I want to ask you is, how do you think we can move on from the place we are today, where looking critically and truthfully at American history is considered hating America, and where lawmakers are attempting to bar school systems from teaching the 1619 project. Well, you just have to push back on that question. I think mature people understand that, as I said, love doesn't mean pretending that every single thing that someone that you love or something or some place that you love is perfect. People who have children and claim to love them, but never correct them. Or their children are always right. The teacher is wrong. The kids are always right. That's not love. That's something else. It's ego. It's narcissism. It's self-regard that the only thing that matters is you and how you're responding to something. You have to be tough enough to be critical. I mean, as I say in that passage as well, how you do it matters. I mean, we correct our friends or we correct ourselves and we try to do that in a balanced way in a way that is respectful and not dismissive of people, but you have to do it. And I think it's just about being an adult. You know, you grow up and you find out that your parents don't have all the answers. They're not perfect. They didn't know what they were doing. Especially when you get your own kids, you realize you don't know what they're doing. But they didn't know what they were doing. And you have to approach it in a way that is respectful but firm. There's no way to hide the fact that the Texas Republic protected slavery. It's in the Constitution. You can't read the founding documents of the Republic without coming to grips with that. And how you respond to that, it's a matter. I think it's personality.  That was wrong. But we're going to go forward. You know, and that's the purpose of, I mean, that's to me the message of Juneteenth. These are people who were celebrating the end of slavery knowing that tough roads were ahead. That that hadn't solved anything. But they were moving forward with optimism and a sense that, you know, we're going to leave the past behind. We'll remember and commemorate. We don't live in the past. We'll remember it, but we're going forward. And that's what I think we have to reiterate to people. You can't move forward lying. And you just have to tell the truth. And the good things that the person did, you'll take that into account. But you also have to take into account the flaws. That's the only way you get the total picture. And you need the total picture. I would say that's exactly what we endeavor to do every day at Montpelier is exactly that. Tell the truth to tell the whole history. And to tell, you know, all sides of that person, all sides of that situation. Well, Annette, is there anything else that you would like to share with us before we move to the panel discussion? These were questions that Elizabeth and I prepared. But, you know, tonight is an acknowledgement of a glorious book that you have written and shared with us. And I just wonder if there's anything you'd like us to know above and beyond the questions that we've asked. No, it's just that I'm glad that this I'm thrilled at the reception of the book. I'm happy that people think it's it's accessible and that is something that they want to read. And I'm excited about even though there are things that are going on in Texas now that are not that are cause for concern. I think I'm optimistic. I think people are standing up and people want to know the truth. And I think the reception of the book so far is indicative of that. And that we can have a respectful and passionate, but respectful discussion about history and the truths of our past. So I'm ready to have that conversation. Well, thank you. Thank you. You're going to join us as well as part of the panel. But I think what we'll do now is we'll introduce our two other panelists. Our first panelist is Reverend Halyard Brown and he's associate pastor at Little Zion Baptist Church in Orange, Virginia. And a member of the board of the Orange County African American Historical Society and being somewhat new to Orange County. I'll have you know, this is my preferred Orange County, not that other OC place they did on the other coast. The Orange County African American Historical Society is co hosting Juneteenth with Montpelier and has done so for the past six years. But the holiday is commemorated in other ways in our community as well. And I would just like to note so it doesn't get lost in the conversation that the Orange County African American Historical Society actually came to Montpelier with this opportunity to be able to host Juneteenth at our site. And we are forever grateful to be able to do that. So Reverend Halyard, you're behind my little cheat sheet here. Have you joined us? There you are. That's great. I have the first question for you before Elizabeth introduces Mary. And that is, how are churches in the Orange County area celebrating Juneteenth? Let's say good evening to all the Roy and throughout distinguished guests, Professor Annette Gordon Reed. A wonderful question. How churches approach Juneteenth. I surveyed pastors from various predominantly black churches in the Orange and surrounding counties. And as a former vice moderator, one of the area Baptist Association, I had a connection with many of the pastors that I spoke with. Also, I passed to the church in the neighboring county for 14 years. I will share what I know about honoring this great date in history in respect to churches and how they approach the holiday here in Virginia. Now, Juneteenth being a relatively new holiday for the Commonwealth of Virginia being established by Governor Norton's signature as a holiday in October 2020. You can understand that most churches do not schedule programs for the holiday as of yet. I have found, however, that many plan to include the holiday in their 2021 schedules going forward, although many remain closed because of the pandemic that we are experiencing right now. Although the majority do not have programs in their schedules, they do support community organizations hosting Juneteenth programs in other ways. Churches will support these organizations monetarily by providing their choirs and members, participating in them. Most of the participation in 2020 and to date, as you know, is virtual due to the pandemic, but yet it goes on. Orange County has been a front-runner in the Juneteenth celebration since around 2006 due to the efforts of the Orange County African American Historical Society and its supporters. The Arts Center and the Town of Orange and Mount Pilio, of course, co-host in the events. Therefore, the churches of Orange and Orange County are really a much farther along in their support of Juneteenth than many of the churches in the surrounding counties. And we can really pat ourselves on the back just a little bit for that. Every pastor that I spoke with, they were extremely excited to be able to support another historically meaningful cultural event. Many were glad to give the youth in the church an opportunity to participate in and learn of this part of their history. As we were so eloquently spoke of in the book, the majority of this celebration took place foremost in Texas. And now it is pretty much all over the country. So I want to personally thank Professor Reed for your book. And Professor Reed, it has been certainly a pleasure reading your book as well as meeting you in person. And I pray all the best for you. Thank you. Now, I also know that this book will be an inspiration for generations to come, young and old. God bless you and I thank you. Thank you. I'd like to introduce my Montpelier colleague, Mary Furlong Minkoff. Mary is the curator of archaeological collections at Montpelier. And she's also the Montpelier coordinator for Juneteenth, in which she organizes a huge number of details to make a wonderful event, which has been mostly virtual this year and last year, but we anticipate a low out celebration in 2022. So, Mary, the question I have for you is, what do you see as the role of cultural institutions like Montpelier and our sister historical sites in the recognition of Juneteenth and the discussion surrounding it? Thank you, Elizabeth, for the question and also thank you to everyone for letting me take part in this panel. I think the role of an institution like Montpelier is first and foremost is to listen and to ask questions. As Reverend Brown said, the Orange County African American Historical Society has been way ahead of the curve celebrating since 2006 and in the state of Virginia, the original emancipation day that was celebrated in Virginia was April 3 to celebrate the fall of Richmond. So there is a tradition of celebrating emancipation in Virginia that goes all the way back until the 1800s, until the 1860s. So we're really late to the party in the grand scheme of things as an institution, while being a leader amongst plantation museums, and I think the reason we have been able to be successful is instead of it being Montpelier's Juneteenth, it is the Orange County African American Historical Society's Juneteenth. And we use our resources, our national platform, our funding, our visitor base to support the efforts of our community. The Orange Virginia, much like the town Annette Grepin, is a small town. Montpelier in a lot of ways is kind of the big dog in town. We're a big employer, we're a big property. We're a center of a lot of things and so putting our efforts behind the local community and not just looking to some of the bigger cities that are about an hour away, but looking in our own backyard and supporting efforts here, I think is a really good model that other institutions with these large platforms, with these large networks of donors, of visitors can get behind. And I think the result is a better event, a more fun event, a more well attended event, and certainly what we have seen at Montpelier is on the actual celebrations of Juneteenth on property, we have people that have never stuck foot on our property before come specifically for Juneteenth, come to experience a place and then come back year after year. And then moving into this virtual space using the resources we have at Montpelier to support the effort to create websites to create videos to create virtual content. We already have had over 2000 people participate in our virtual Juneteenth celebration for this year. This June 2nd, we have already had over 2000 people log on just for this year and that is out of this world for any of us. And so I think really kind of working together, supporting the local initiatives and using the resources that our larger culture institutions have to support the work that's already being done. Don't reinvent the wheel, take the really great wheel that's there and give it a bigger platform. Thank you, Mary. I would just highlight that we have not just celebration and programming on Juneteenth this year, but Mary and Reverend Brown and the Orange County of African American Historical Society has created moments throughout the month that culminate on the 18th. And that sort of leads me to the next question for the full panel in terms of how we view the celebration or the observation of Juneteenth. And I'm curious what each of you might share as your vision for what does Juneteenth look like five years from now, 20 years from now. And whether or not you think there's impetus to make it a national holiday, or perhaps just ideas or inspirations each of you have for how you would like to see Juneteenth continue to evolve. I would like to see it evolve. I would like to see days where they do the kinds of things that you're talking about where it's not just a celebration but there would be educational things for for young people to find out to be encouraged to learn about the history of that time of what happened leading up to it and afterwards. I'd like to see it a fun day but an educational day as well. And that would be my greatest hope and there's so many since I've written this book and I've seen that there's so many books for children about on Juneteenth that I think the younger generation of people is going to come up with this as something that is more as a matter of course as it was for me but that's going to happen all over the country. So I would like to see, and this is already taking place but I would like to see it continue to be a day not just for celebration, but a time for thinking about the serious issues that were involved here with the institution of slavery and the problem of racial discrimination all of that is tied up in this in this day. In a sense in sense you sort of the two memories that you have of the importance of the day or the observation for the older people in your family in your community as opposed to for the kids in the family of the community. Reverend Brown any thoughts on five years out or 20 years out. Yeah, I hope I'll be around that long. Yes, I do. I'm in concurrence with Professor Reed has said but my concern is that we do not, we may lose our history upon young folk. And I'm concerned really of us making history very much available to them in such a way that is a fun time for them yet serious time for them to learn the history of our people. Not only of that but what is happening in the schools in that area. We have to stand up and make sure that the history is taught and the truth of the history is told. So, my, my hopes are that will continue this, not only in the present but for very much in the future that this celebration will become nationwide, and that all the churches will be involved. And they will, you know, include those type of celebrations in their scheduling in the near future. Thank you and Mary, any thoughts. One of the things I'm struck by is in Dr Gordon Reed's book, how she talked about Juneteenth and and the fourth of July Independence Day is sort of these sort of two peak points of summer and a celebrating freedom and celebrating independence and, you know, what I would say is that connection between that entire time between June 19 and July 4 be really a time where we as a country, not only celebrate these freedoms but are reminded that not everyone got their freedom in 1776. A lot of us were left out of the original draft of the Constitution. A lot of us were not included in the definition of citizenship for all the way into the 20th century and and that there's still a lot of room to go. So what I see is sort of these peers is Independence Day but Juneteenth is sort of the reminder of we're still working towards freedoms that it's a process and embracing that process and I, from my experience, working with Juneteenth for the past six years is to see that every year I have to explain to less people what the holiday is. More people are coming asking about it wanting to know what are we doing, what can I learn, what can I celebrate, and that has doubled and tripled every single year and so if we keep going at this rate, I don't think it's going to have to be a time where we say we're celebrating Juneteenth and this is what it's about. Everybody's going to go what are we doing for Juneteenth and how can we take the spirit of Juneteenth and connect it all summer long, all year long. And so 20 years from now I see it as an entire summer celebration rather than a one day peace. What do you think Annette about the future of Juneteenth as a national holiday? Well, you know, it almost I gather from Miss Opalee who has been made this a crusade, a Texan who's made this a crusade for a number of years. It almost became a national holiday. They're going to try again. And I wouldn't be surprised at all if it did become a national holiday. I read somewhere that there are only a handful of states who don't have some kind of commemoration, maybe three or four. And at that level, you've got almost a saturation point for it. It's all fall intents and purposes it is. I think if that were to happen, I think it would be a good thing. It's a good thing to have someday where you commemorate the end of slavery. Obviously, we know that slavery ends legally with the 13th Amendment is ratified, but nobody knows that and that comes at the end of December when people are doing other stuff. Some people say how about January 1 is the emancipation, you know, emancipation proclamation tying into that. Well, we already have a holiday there. And, you know, I think we definitely need someday to think about how to sort of commemorate how the how those people felt when their status changed. And when they learned that their status changed and, you know, it's not the end of slavery in all the country, but it's it's the end of the Confederate war effort. It came after they finally gave up the, you know, the armed conflict, which is an important thing to, I think, to reiterate. And, you know, I think it's possible that it will become a national holiday and it would be a good thing because all the things that we're talking about now will not that they wouldn't go forward anyway, but now they can go forward under the the aegis of the the imprimatur of of a national a national effort. If I could let's switch for a few minutes. I think what do we have you yeah we have time for a couple of questions. And so I'll remind the audience to please put your questions in the Q&A, or in the chat. And first question for the panel. Why has it taken so long for the rest of the country to learn about this holiday. Well, I think because largely I if I may take a stab at that it's because it was localized it was in Texas. I think it spread across the country because when Texas when people left Texas and moved to California and other places they began to celebrate it there as well. But it's like this country is 50, 50 separate little unit units here, and it was very, very insular for a time, and it's only been recently that it's come out so it's just, I think people just didn't know this for lack of knowledge about it and we've just started. They're talking about slavery on in a national in the sort of in a public way. We've always done it but it's been accelerated I would say in the last 20 or 30 years certainly I'm even at Montpelier Monticello, those kinds of places, you know even even in slave plantations people didn't speak about it in an earnest way. It's not surprising to me that it's not something that's generally no. Just to sort of tack on to that is that I think we alluded this to before there were so many different emancipation days celebrated locally just like Juneteenth so you know fall of Richmond in Virginia but many different areas celebrated. January 1, as Dr. Gordon we've mentioned, so you have all these different celebrations that are very localized and those celebrations kind of many of them suffered as people left or grew up but also with segregation and with the structures that were in place to limit gatherings and celebrations and sort of outward expressions so there was a time in our country where celebrating the emancipation day was pretty widespread across the nation. And then kind of that got pushed down, and it was later on into later in the 20th century where the word sort of started to spread again and I think one of the things that's so amazing is sort of the survival of Juneteenth and I. I think to credit those men who bought land to really have a physical claim into the holiday. I think is one of the reasons the Juneteenth celebration itself has been able to survive for so long because you when you can stuff on the ground and touch it physically you can't deny it in the way that you can if you didn't see the holiday that day or if you you know prevented an outward celebration. Mm hmm. And Juneteenth is a cool word. Yeah, April 3 doesn't have it. Yeah, you had the April 3. We're laughing but branding I mean they're people who have their whole careers are spent around trying to find the right word to describe something to sell and it works, you know, it works that way. It's absolutely a different date on the camp on the calendar, and it's the lack of knowledge of that date that really spawn, you know, it's not being as popular in this region as it was in Texas. It's been about 18 years off and on in El Paso, Texas. And it was celebrated like a block party when I was there and we kind of bought a little bit of it to the east when we came back here. And I was surprised that no one knew of it. Absolutely a lack of knowledge but that knowledge came with us as you said in your book, you know, the folk that lived there when they migrated to other areas, they brought the celebration with them. And so it was great to see how it spawned from that area, expanded from that area where we are now. But it was definitely a lack of knowledge why it wasn't so well so spread as it should have been. And I think a lot of it on this point of moving from one place to the next. It goes dovetails with the with the theme that I talked about in the book how Texans are have this kind of chauvinistic attitude. I mean you move to another state, and then say, hey, I'm from Texas and now we're going to celebrate this holiday from Texas.  But that's the made sense to them. You're supposed to do because, you know, everybody's gone ho about that about the state. And so they, when they went out to California and Arizona and all those places, they kept it, they kept it alive. I think your Texan ambition has been very good for Juneteenth. Yes, it definitely has. And I would say that we still do live in a world that has regional holidays that are acknowledged, you know, the individual regions or individual states. Is April 3rd a state holiday? Not in Virginia that I know of. No, see, and I think that's another thing by Juneteenth became a state holiday 79 officially in 1980. And when a state recognizes it, I think that that that's further momentum. You know, these other things people celebrate but to have the state recognize it as a day. Probably I think means a lot to the to the legitimacy of it and makes people even more chauvinistic about it, I think. Well, let me let me just ask if any of the panelists have anything they would like to discuss before we wrap work just a few minutes before eight. We promise to be close to time. We've had a lovely discussion and that with you on your book and I think some very inspirational discussions of where Juneteenth goes. But if there was a message to leave this group, which is in hundreds right now with us. What might you like to leave them with? Well message for my book generally is that we're all part of history. Now that was the fun thing about doing this is to be able to talk about to tell the story of Texas history and relate it to things that connected to my family. And everybody on this panel, everybody out in the audience could do that as well with their lives is history is not just about famous people who had big houses on mountains and things like that. History is about we were all a part of history and that's one of the things that and and because we're a part of it, we have to be truthful about it. We have to tell the truth to ourselves. We can't lie to ourselves about who we are and where we came from and how we got to be where we are. So that's, I mean, I think that's what on Juneteenth is is about and that would be a message that I would leave with people. Well, thank you. Thank you, Reverend Brown or Mary anything you'd like to leave the group before I wrap. I would just like to encourage anyone who's watching this to look up what's happening in your local area and see how you can get involved. Yeah, you can always go to the ocaahsjuneteenth.org, which is the website little plug we've created for our virtual Juneteenth celebration. But there are so many amazing things that are happening in local communities, whether it's at churches, whether it's at art centers, community centers, schools, whatever it is, look up to see what's happening in your area, how you can get involved, how you can support it because one of the things that I think has been really amazing about being involved with the celebration here is how much local history that I have learned from the community, how many new businesses I've been introduced to through the vendors that we work with and local black owned businesses, but really just different ways that you can support your own backyard, whether it's, you know, shopping at one of these businesses, going to a museum, watching a special program doing it online doing it in person. I just think there's so much that we can do in our own neighborhoods in our own states to really, you know, recognize freedom and celebrate it and also think about how much more work we have left to do. Thank you, Mary and Reverend Brown. Yes, I would like for this message of families to not forget their history, and not only not forget their history, but to share that history, it goes down through the generations. It's very important that the truth be told that they understand the part that each family had in the making of that history, and also to know that history is being made right now, that each family members should be engaged in a positive way to understand and to move forward into this building of this generation that we are striving to have right now, making this America the way that it should be. Thank you, Reverend Brown. And thank you, Mary. And thank you, Annette. I would say that I reflect as you each were closing on the importance of the work that we do with each of you and that we do with each other at Montpelier. And it's, for me, for us, it's not just about the fact that we're all part of history, but it's helping people find their place in the history. And thank you for helping us do that this evening. Very welcome. And a great hour. I always wish, you know, leading up, I think they're going to be long and then you get into it and you think, like, ah, we're over already. But here we are at the end. So thanks to each of you. And thank you, Elizabeth, for joining me in the interview and the panel discussion. And a very big thanks to our colleagues at the National Archive who listened to a plea that we really wanted to begin Juneteenth this year in a big way. And we wanted to include the Orange County African American Historical Society in the conversation because they were so, so fortunate to bring this opportunity to us originally. And so, Annette, thanks for writing this book and giving us the opportunity to spend this time. Oh, thank you for having me. Well, take care, everyone. Please join us again at the National Archive Talk and our book talks at Montpelier. Thank you. Thank you.