You know, for the last 206 years, all the books written in the... about the Gorkhaja were mostly written from outside. Grabbing from the... from the village, sent by the... even the prisoners, everybody then we grab them and put on the truck and then send them to war. To be a friend with the British activity by that time, even today, even today, to be a friend with the British guy. And we're both published by the same wonderful publisher, Blacksmith Books in Hong Kong. Shall we say hello to Pete? Yeah, hello Pete. Is he there? No, no, but Pete Spurrier should get a shout out because Pete's the proprietor of Blacksmith Books in Hong Kong and he's... He's brought many... he's given the chance to many authors such as myself who have wonderful stories to tell, mainly based in Asia, aren't they? And it's a difficult... I don't know if you found this, but the publishing world is quite difficult to get a contract. But Pete will just look at a story and if he thinks it's got merit, if he thinks people will enjoy it and if he thinks it brings a benefit to Hong Kong or Asian non-fiction, then he gives you a chance and... Isn't a nice guy. Yes, so hello Pete and thank you for all your authors. So, yes, is Hong Kong hot at the moment, Tim? Yeah, it's very hot. It's 33, but last two weeks was okay because that was rainy continuously. But now it's a part again, it's 33, 34 degrees, so you know how it is. Yeah, the rainy season in Hong Kong is just... it's insane, isn't it? It just doesn't stop raining. And yet it's still quite hot or at least for us Europeans, it's still really hot. Which part of Hong Kong do you live in? I live in Kowloon, Kowloon side. Mostly we live this side here. Do you know Mong Kok? Oh yeah, I've been in Hong Kong from 1980s. You know it all, yeah. I lived in Mong Kok for about eight months. Then I moved to Wan Chai, working in the nightclubs and that's another story. But we're here today to talk about a fascinating subject, particularly fascinating to anyone that's got an interest in the military and that is our wonderful Gurkhas. But I shouldn't say our wonderful Gurkhas because the Gurkhas serve the United Kingdom, the Indian army and also the Nepalese army. Am I correct in that, Tim? Yeah, Nepalese army is the original one. So both Indian army and the British army was of course started by the British. So they just separated after 1947 when India got independent and divided the Gurkhas between themselves. And the institution has been continuing as of today for over 266 years now. Yes, and a very proud history we should say. Your book, it's very comprehensive. Has it been well received? Yeah, the main reason I wrote this book was because, you know, for the last 206 years all the books written in the, about the Gurkhas were mostly written from outside. There wasn't even one single book. Of course there was one or two or three, few of them in Nepalese language but not in English. So when I realized that there was a need for that, then I started working on it. Because, you know, when you have the book written from only one side, you become one sided because it only tells one side of the story from the outside, not from the actual side of our side of the story. Then I realized that that was the most important part of the reason why I have written this book. And actually I did a lot of research. I worked almost three years on the book, visited many places like the UK, Burma, Singapore, Malaysia and Hong Kong, I know by heart. And I even went to Nepal for two times and visited from the east part of Nepal to the west part of Nepal. And went through all those areas where all those Gurkhas went and tried to get their story and put it into the book. Because I thought that it was imperative to put our side of the story that unfortunately hasn't been told until now. So that's what I thought then, that's what I did for the last three and a half years. Yes, and you've done a great job. Because traditionally the Gurkhas have had, let's just say talk about the British Gurkhas, they have a British officer. And whenever I see the Gurkhas talked about in the media, it tends to be the officer, the British officer who is speaking. So I guess your book is giving the voice to the actual rifleman themselves. Is that fair to say? I think it has been over one and a half years now since the book is published. Because my book is not only published by Pete, but also published by Penguin in Southeast Asia for those Malaysia, Singapore area. Also by Westland Book in Southeast Asia. And the Blacksmith book one is the third one. So this is the first one published by Penguin. And this is the second one published by the Southeast Asia market. And the Blacksmith one was the third one that we did for the international edition. And we're also having the Nepali edition is also coming very soon. So the book was well received from all over the world, especially now it's available everywhere. And mostly it was an eye opener for our people, the Gurkhas. Not only the Gurkhas, but also the Nepali people as a whole. Because until now there wasn't a book as I said before that covers the almost complete history of the Gurkhas. Already in brief, it's a long institution over 270 years old and it's almost impossible to combine in one book. So at least what I did was to give a brief detail from the start to 2018. So at least people have a general idea of the Gurkhas. Because until now, since the books are mostly written from outside, it's all about the bravery, how brave they are, how good they are, how loyal they are and that's all. But the Gurkha story is not only about bravery, it's also about our tragedy. So that's what I was trying to put in and it has been very well received all over the world. And I'm very happy that after 200 years I happened to be the first person who got to write that book and I'm honoured as well. So we're doing very well. Yes, you've done the Gurkha regiments proud, definitely.  No, I did 13 years. Actually, as you know, those who know about the Gurkhas, they're mostly before the World War II, all the Nepalese were allowed to join the British and British Gurkha in India. But after the World War II, mostly from the British side, they kind of selected, made a different, call it, there's only four tribes of peoples from Nepal. There were a lot to join in the army and they call it the Marshal races. And they were divided from two parts of Nepal, eastern part of Nepal and western part of Nepal. From western part, I will come in the Mughal and Guru like myself. And the eastern part come rise and remove. So after the World War II, most Gurkhas were from those tribes. So I came from, you know, I come from the middle western part of Nepal, which is the heart base of the Gurkha. So every village there is a Guru village. So you mean it's a Gurkha village, you can call it a Gurkha village.  So as a Gurkha, we grew up dreaming about becoming a Gurkha, because that was the only thing we saw. We were taught, you know. So even if we were very good at school, we still, because our last destination was always there. So like my grandfathers, my father, my uncles, I was no exception. So I joined the army in 17 in 1980, then came to Hong Kong. Then I retired in 1993 in the Army Corporal because there was a rundown coming on because Hong Kong was going back to China. At the same time, I also felt honestly that I wasn't cut out for the army. So I needed to find an alternative career for myself. So I went happily. So that's why I know, you know, what I mean is, I'm not only a Gurkha, I'm not only dissolved in the British Army, but I live as a Gurkha. So it's in me, it's in my society. So I know the inside out that that's why the book has become so authentic and real, because it tells the actual story of the Gurkha. It was very important and well received by everybody. And you were a corporal? Yeah, I was a corporal. I was a lance corporal. Okay. So now we have to call each other corporal, lance corporal. That's corporal. Tim, for our friends at home, can you tell us what is life like in Nepal? Obviously, it's very different depending on where you live. But what is a typical life for a young man who might be thinking of or might wish to join the Gurkhas? No, I think I cannot talk about the situation at the moment because I had came out of Nepal and I've been out of Nepal for a long time, you know, almost 40 years. I've been out of Nepal, but I can talk about is the time, you know, my time when I was in Nepal. At the time, I was in 1970s. As I said before, we had villages just from one or two hours from Pokhara. Pokhara was a small town where the British army came to situate it for the recommended purpose. And it is still there even today. And that time Pokhara was not very big and we lived in a village just a few hours from there, walking from there. But, you know, village, as I said, life was, everybody was farming. We were farmers and everybody, you know, we were a very closely needed family, you know, people, villages living in a village mostly, you know, descended from one couple. So we all share the same grandfather and one ancestor. So we're related like your father, uncle, sister, like that. So when you see your grandfather, father, uncles, everybody going during the army and coming back with nice clothes, little bit of nice clothes and some little bit more money.  So we actually didn't see anything at all other than joining the British army. Of course, we had twice, three choices at the time. The first was actually in our village, we just had two choices. The first was the British army was the priority. And second was if we fail in joining the British army, then we would choose for the Indian army. There's another choice for the Nepal army, but I don't know why people from our village almost never went there. So one of the things we saw was, you know, British army.  There was a 5.2 inches and you can, the weight was 50 kilos. And your chest, you know, you can, there was 30 and 32 inches.   That was the only thing, you know.  That was, that was, that was the reality in our time. And we had no other option. We thought no other option whatsoever at that time. So as you can see, I was, I was quite a bright student in my school and he still, I joined the army because of that. And I also had two reasons. One was I was the person of the family. So, you know, my father was in the army, in the Bokha army, Bokha. So we're in comparison, not that we're left in financial. So it was the honest, the responsibility was on me as a first son of the family to join the army. So that's the only thing we could see, nothing at all. Like a blinker, how a horse, you know, you just see it, nothing at all. So it wasn't like that, you know. But I think things have changed a lot now because now they, the Nepal has improved a bit.  And coming in most of them because of the mouse, mouse insurgency in 1980s, late 90s. People who had to flee, flee from the village and go to the town area to be safe. So people come to Bokha and all the other cities and they live here. So now I think that has changed a lot. Also, they have other options going to other countries. So at the same time, I don't think, and I had been out of Nepal for 40 years. So maybe I'm not qualified to talk in. Yes, I, Tim, I remember reading a long time ago. We're talking about 30 years ago now about the recruitment process in Nepal. And you had a British Army officer would walk, walk from village to village. Or, and I'm probably getting this a bit wrong. It was a long time ago, but these young men would come forward and their dream was to be a Gurkha. And they would have some criteria. So I think you mentioned it that chess would have to expand a certain amount of inches. Yes, they'd have to do the physical stuff and carry the carrier basket across a route march. And some of these young men, they would walk for days to get to the recruitment, the recruitment post. Does this sound about right? No, actually, at the early time, it wasn't the British officer. The British officer, they normally stay in the recruiting center, recruitment center. There was one in West Nepal, like Pokhara, my hometown. There is another one in Dharan, in Eastern Nepal. What they used to do normally was that there was those ex-Gurkhas who have served in the British Army, retired. And they're mostly a senior ranking officer, like a non-commissioned officer, not a commissioner, not an officer. But the non-commissioned officer, like Sergeant or a W2, or even a lefty like that. They used to call them Gullawal. Gullawal. So they are appointed by the British, the recruitment office in Pokhara in Nepal. And they went around for certain areas. They are located in certain areas. They go there and select the base one. And normally they will select all of them. Accordingly, to bring it to the final recruitment camp at Pokhara. We used to have a lot of days like all the fitness days, running days, medical days, education days, those kinds of normal things. They would mark the numbers and then select the base one. That was in our time. Later on nowadays, I think since the number of recruitment for the British Army has gone down significantly down. It's just 250 or 250 maximum a year before it was 200, even 1000 a year. But at the moment it's probably 200, I think it's 250 maximum like that. So what they do is normally they all come to Pokhara. They also have, in Dharan they have a very small one. They also bring from there. They come to Pokhara. Everybody go there. And the colleagues, like we say in the basket, they call it the dokoris. Dokoris. Dokoris is a kind of bamboo basket to carry things. And they put a weight or something like, I don't know, maybe 30, 60, I don't know, kilo or something like that. Then make them run for a certain period of distance. Then whoever are going up the hill and whoever comes first, they win. Because the competition is probably very tough. Probably 10,000, 20,000, even 30,000, 40,000 before. Now probably 10,000, 20,000 just for 200. So that's the case now. But before it was like you said, the Gullawala used to go all around the villages, collect his man, all the young guys and bring it to the recruitment center and do the test again and select the best one. That was the case. Is it in Nepal? I'm guessing it's a rural lifestyle, a lot of farming. There's a lot of hills or mountains. So the young men are probably quite strong anyway. It must mean that the guys that get through the recruitment process are really, really, really quite fit. They have to be fit, of course, because they have to win the doko race, carrying a basket race and come out of the hill. But at the same time, what has changed now? Because those Gurkhas also live in the UK now. They have to go to other countries like Afghanistan, Brunei, Singapore or whatever. They have to go, right? In that case, they have to be also well educated. So what they do now is, I think it's a combination of both. So they have to be well educated, also be fit. And so you become not only select from those from the hill, they might be strong, but they won't be able to survive in a civilized country, a society like this one. So I think it's a combination of both. That's why I saw in Nepal when I was going there visiting for my books, research for my books, they have created a lot of those training schools, physical schools, where those people will train those young youngsters for the British army. So they train there. They know what those requirements are. They train there. They already are well educated, most of them are university students. So they train there for a year or two, then they are educated. They train there physically fit and they go there. I think that's the only case now, because also most of the people in Nepal now live in those cities or some small towns. They don't live mostly in the village. Only those very poor and very old people live in the village nowadays. So that is the case now. What's it like, Tim, arriving in England or the United Kingdom for the first time? Nowadays or? Your experience, was it very different? No, for me it was not a big difference. Of course it was a big difference because everything was there. But my biggest problem, I lived there in Sanders for a year. I didn't live there much. I lived there for a year in Sanders, the British official training center. I lived there for a year. My biggest problem was the winter, the cold. The other one was the coldness. It was too cold for us. When we were deploying the jungle, there was always snow everywhere. It was too cold for us. That's the only problem. But nowadays, I think because of the internet, the people they know and the young generation, they know most of the things. But now the Nepali youth goes everywhere all over the world. So it shouldn't be that method. That must travel for them, I think. Yes, it's a changing world, of course. And also technology and the internet brings everything closer to home. Was it difficult to learn the language? I worked with the Gurkhas. I did two parachute courses. And on each course, there was about a third, if not 50%, were Gurkhas. And it's quite incredible because learning to parachute is difficult enough. It's a life or death situation. If you get it wrong, it's going to be death. But of course, we're learning English and we're English. English or British guys or Commonwealth guys. I say guys, there were no girls on either of the courses I did. But for these young men from Nepal, they're having to learn all these difficult drills. But in a foreign language, that maybe they've only had a year, two years to learn. Was that difficult to learn English so quickly? Does everybody learn it? No, I don't think so. Because especially during my time, most of the Gurkhas didn't speak very well English. They didn't speak good English because it was almost impossible. Because all the lessons we had to take was in Nepalese and Gurkhalese. And English was only for reading. So we always lived with our own people. And as you know, the British officers were well in the air for the show. They come and back the order and then disappear, you know, most of the time. So we had to live with our own people. So we speak in Nepalese. So for most of them, the English learning, there wasn't a chance or necessity to learn English at the moment. But at the moment now they live in the UK. I think they also have to be quite good at English. That's why when they regroup to Gurkhalese from Nepal, I think that's why they look for the university graduates. Some of them, they already go to the basic English school in Nepal. And some of them, they even study in other like Singapore or Hong Kong or even in the UK. So they shouldn't have a problem for English. I think now the modern one, all the new soldiers, they have no problem in English. Tim, what rank can a Gurkha get to? Because I saw there was a Gurkha colonel and I didn't know you could become a colonel as a Gurkha. I always thought that was the British officers job. I think when the Gurkhas moved from India to Malaysia and Singapore, instead of integrating the Gurkhas into the British army as stipulated in the treaty, they signed a treaty in 1947 called the Trivatized Treaty between the British and the Gurkhas in Nepal and India. They created a completely separate system for the Gurkhas. So because of that we had a different system, we had a different rule of law, we had different pay, different pension, everything was different. So even within our time, when I was still there, a Gurkha can only promote to a major, it's a Gurkha major. That's not even a permission officer, it's a Gurkha major. So you have to go through a lens coprol, coprol sergeant like that, you know, from the basic, from the ground, then climb up to the Gurkha major. So Gurkha major was the most senior officer in a battalion who was responsible for an administrative job, welfare of the Gurkha soldiers and their family, and also assistant to a colonel who was the commanding officer of the British army, who was of course always a British army. And during that time, there were just a few of the very highly educated Gurkhas were allowed to join the, attend the British commissioning corps. There were just four or five of them who eventually became a lieutenant colonel. Even they, you know, the highest rank they could do as a lieutenant colonel. But after the Gurkhas left Hong Kong in 1947 and become part of the British army, I think they have changed the rule now and the Gurkhas were also allowed to get promoted beyond colonel. That's why I think you have some of them. I think we have four or five of them now. That's the main reason. But before that, we had no, there was no, nothing at all.  That was the, you know, the disparity between the British and the Gurkha. And that is the reason why we are still having this discrimination and having this problem. I think you are aware of the Hungary start going on in London, Whitehall, you know, opposite of the British Prime Minister's office. That's the reason, you know, that's the main reason why this is still going on. And what I want to tell you is, you know, the Gurkhas, like I said at the beginning, Gurkhas had always been a good friend and loyal friend for the British, for over two years, institution that lasted for over 200 years cannot be, cannot survive on loyalty alone and bravery alone. There must be something more. And I think after my research and reading the book, you know, our country has given everything they had, everything, even today, everything. But in a, when you treated the British, I'm not saying the British people aged or not. British people love their Gurkhas. That's no doubt about it. It is the policy, the British government policy. That's disgusting. Okay. So for the last 200 years, we gave everything. We treated like our true friend. The Gurkhas, you know, they did their part. But in return, I think what the British government did or doing to us is disgusting. So I think those who read my book will understand what I'm saying this. But that is the reason, you know, because as you know, as I said, after 1947, they created a completely different separate system. Ten times less. Ten times less. Then the British counterpart doing the same job, carrying the same rifle and facing the same bullet. And you know how many Gurkhas have died. And the implication this institution has inflicted into the Nepal is actually massive. The problem is until now. I don't know why nobody has ever looked into it, researched into it and written into it. Nobody did until now. But the reason why Nepal is still one of the poorest countries in the world is because of the Gurkhas. That's the main reason.  They went home. And until in Malaysia, for ten years, the communist gorilla in Malaysia, then they fought the Indonesian in a war confrontation. And also they fought in Foglen, Kosovo, Bosnia, Iraq, Afghanistan, everywhere. But in return, what do we get? Nothing. I think everything was okay until when the Gurkhas were still in Nepal. They were still acceptable because the living in Nepal was low. The money, whatever we give, we can earn and we can get. From the British army was quite good when we were in Nepal. Then we could at least live a dignified and decent life with that principle. But when the campaign began, the Gurkhas, the city campaign began, and they moved to the UK in 2009. And then the real problem begins there because you are living in the UK as a British citizen. You have to pay the same for water, electricity and other bills and living standards. But you're still getting the Nepali pension. Then how can you expect them to survive? That was the biggest problem. And if the British were a little bit sensible and give them the equal pension, most of them would move back to Nepal and have a very comfortable and simple life. In a foreign country like those old guys who don't speak English, they don't know about the way of living there. They don't know about the culture there. And they don't speak English. How can you expect them to survive? It's very hard for them. And it is pretty simple that the British still treat our people like this. I feel very bad about that. And so I have to say this here. A10, the British government treat the British people like rubbish. You're not alone, brother. But I do understand. I spoke to the two Gurkhas and the Gurkha wife on hunger strike yesterday. And yes, what can we say? It's not just you guys. The British government hate veterans anyway. We're nothing to them. They work for other people. The Trillion Dollar Corporation controls our government. Our government are just puppets. But they believe that they're a bit special. So they hate the people. They think we're scum and that we won't rise up. Sorry to get political folks, but it has to be said. Life has become a joke in this country. And I don't care about me because I'm an old guy. But I care about the children and what their future is. And if we just keep allowing this disrespect, this segregation, this manipulation and control to happen. Well, it's not going to go to a good place because these guys play their own game. They don't care about us. But fortunately, through podcasts like this, people are slowly becoming aware of this team. And I hope it's all... Well, I'm going to do my best to make sure it goes to a better place. But I'm just... I'm one guy. Let's... Talk because was it... Sorry, let's talk about the Gherkes commitment because... Did I read in World War I, there was 200,000 Gherkes? And yet in Nepal, there's only five million people. And I don't know if that's the case. Gherkes? And yet in Nepal, there's only five million people. So that's... One intend didn't return home. Yes, one intend didn't return home. But of course, many return home injured. And so... They are mentally broken. Yeah, broken, damaged, blind, maybe lost their legs, arms. And yet they can't go back to work on their farms, their homeland. So the wife then has to look after them. And also, did I understand that people then would have hate for that family? Did I understand that? Or for the wife who lost her husband? I think that's a completely different thing. But at the same time, at that time, there were so many. So many of them and they were so overwhelmed by the... by the effect, by the war that... and sorrow and misery that they simply had no time to think. They hate or hatred or bitterly and think bitterness to other people. They were too engrossed, overwhelmed by their own problems. So they just tried to survive as a used up and thrown away. And you know how they are paid. There was one I also written in the book. It was in World War II. That time, Nepal had only 6 million people and 250,000 people grabbing from the village, sent by even the prisoners. Everybody then grabbed them, put on the truck and then sent them to war. Then over 33,000 died. And many of them were injured, like I said. But when they went back home, they were sent, given pocket money, a few hundred Indian rupees by then, and a white piece of cloth. There was one or two meter something like that. White piece of cloth. I don't know why they give it. Because in Nepal, white piece of cloth is actually an insult. Because it's a cloth that is used for the dead one. White piece of cloth is a cloth that is used for the dead people. So I don't know whose idea was or who's idea was that. But I just couldn't believe when I found it out. But one thing I have to say now here is that I know how the British did that because they wanted to pay as much as possible. But if the Nepal government and our rulers were not in collusion with the British, it would have never happened. Because I'm not here to blame anyone. I'm just here to tell the truth. So our Nepali leaders are also as blame, must be as guilty as the British policy. If they hadn't, they were not complicit with the kind. That would have never happened. Because they had a very weakness for the British to be a friend with the British actually by that time, even today, even today, to be a friend with the British guy, big guy with a lot of embellishment and star over his uniform and take a picture with them was an honor for them. Even today, and I think my research I found, whenever the British needed more people, they used to stand a general or some big guy with a lot of star all over his place and come with the Nepali leader and take a picture and the Nepali would just collapse and they would just say yes to everything even today. That's the case. And there's another thing is, you know, there's funny that I was so sad, but it's also funny that in return for that, in both World War I and World War II and also after the border confrontation in 1989 and also in 1969 and 1994, whenever the British needed the more people, they got it. Then they, after the incident is over, they send back to their home and what they did is in return for the favor, as a favor, they give all those, you know, the honorary ranks, you know, like night food, general colonel of the regime and all those things to Nepali leader because it cost them nothing. It cost them nothing. Yes. You're so funny about this. It's so horrible. Tim, from my experience, Gurk is incredibly loyal. I mean, incredibly friendly. They just love to learn and to talk. They love dancing.  But what is it that, how come they so fearless? Is that for the loyalty or is that something to do with Nepalese culture? I think there's a lot of things, but I'm not a psychologist, but I think it's a commitment to what you do, give your best because in our culture, whenever somebody gives you a job, you do your best because you respect the guy who gives you a job. That's one thing. And the other thing is the upbringing, you know, that you have to give your best, do your best to your master. And third is, I think it's also the Gurkha, they don't like serious stuff. They just want to play around and joke around and do their job and go home and drink party like that. And the other thing, the most important thing is, I think, the most important thing is, as I said, they don't like serious stuff. So they don't know how the world is.  And for interest people do anything and then they are very easy to, they also have perseverance, skill, they have tenacity, also adaptation. They have everything. But also, I think, is also the stupidity that also plays a part. I'm sorry to say that, but that also plays a part.   I think that's another thing. And they are also easily, easily manipulated. They can be easily manipulated. That's another reason. Yes, of course. Tim, tell us about the swimming because Nepal is a landlocked country. I obviously have many rivers, but I gather that many girls have to learn to swim. Yeah, I think that's the reason because Nepal is a landlocked country. There's not much river. There's no swimming pool, obviously, in the village. So in the river, because the place is so hilly, you know, mountainous. There's no point swimming place to learn swimming. So there's no river. Only rivers are, you know, just very, very steep. So most of them, they almost never swim, especially during our time. We didn't swim. We just walk on the river and never learn to swim. So we had to learn swimming when in the regular training. But nowadays, I think they have some swimming pool in those cities area. So they should be able to swim, I think. Nowadays, it should be a different story. And you know who is Nim Stuy? Yeah, I know another guy. Yeah, he was a girl who joined the SBS, so he had to swim really well. And then for Friends List, and Nim Stuy has been on the podcast. He climbed the world's 14 highest peaks in record time. The previous record was eight years and Nim Stuy and his... Yeah, with just his Sherpa team, so all Nepalese climbed in six months. I bet the country is very proud of them. Do you think so, Tim? Nepal is very proud of what Nim Stuy has done? Oh, yeah. I think a lot of people know them, but Nepal, like I said, Nepal has a lot of issues. Their way of thinking, way of life is a little bit different than what we do mostly in western countries. Because we have this caste system, we have these social problems, we have this political system, we have this religious system, we have a lot of problems. Because of this, people have rather narrow-minded and short-sightedness. As I said, I think they still have to grab the importance of being famous or brightening, making your name popular around the world. They still have to grab things. In the same time, we have a lot of fighting going on in Nepal mainly because of the religion and caste system. Because of that, people think that the thinking is a little bit different. They still have to come as a... They still have to unite as a national team. In that sense, I think it's still lacking. I think they still have a lot to learn before they start appreciating those kind of great work done by the people of Nepal. Yes, of course. In fighting, I always call it divide and conquer. You know, you get the people arguing with each other and then they don't see how they're being controlled. They are more busy on personal interests while missing the big picture. Yes, exactly. Tim, we should talk about battle owners, famous battles. I just don't want to finish the podcast without talking about the huge commitment that the Gurkhas have put in. On the back of your book, it says it all. I mean, First World War, Second World War, Malaya, Singapore, Borneo, East Timor, Hong Kong, Cyprus, Falklands, Iraq, Afghanistan, Kosovo. There's a massive commitment there. Can you give us some ideas of maybe some incidents that have taken place in some of these wars? Maybe some, I don't know, like honours that the Gurkhas have won? Yes, I think, as you know, the Gurkhas started joining the British Army in the middle of Anglo-Gurkha war. That did happen in two phases, in 1814 and 1816. When the British fought the Gurkhas in a small hill, on the first phase of the First World War, sorry, the Anglo-Gurkha War, there were just about 600 men, including wife and children. And the British had almost 22,000 people with advanced artillery weapons like that. And they were so impressed by the bravery and the tenacity of the Gurkhas. They decided right away on the spot that they should better be on my side and fight with me. That's why they started in 1815 with 5,000 men with three Gurkha battalions. And they played a significant role from 1815 to 1947 to establish the British Raji in India. And they fought all those main wars like the Maratha wars, the Jats war, the 26th war, Afghanistan war and Burmese war like that. But it was in the Sipoy, the Indian mutiny in 1857 and 1858 when the first, second battalion, the Gurkhas called the Sipoy battalion, 327 men died out of 490. They got surrounded by all the mobs and they still fought on and they won that from there on, only from there on the Gurkhas were given the rank of soldiers from that Sipoy mutiny. And during the Sipoy mutiny, not only the Gurkhas fought alongside the British but also the Nepal army sent around 9,000 to 15,000 Nepalese army from the hill down, coming down and taking down all the mutinies along the way then saved the British. Otherwise the British Raj would have been finished in 1857. It started from there. There was not even a single war since then. There wasn't the Gurkhas fighting alongside the British. As I said in the first world war, more than 200,000 people came down to fight for the British. They came to Europe in the 14 Middle East and Africa. And in the second world war they came to Europe also 14 Middle East and Africa. The German general was defeated in Africa by the Gurkhas. And they also fought in Burma which was the biggest war. They fought and there were so many people died. Then all together the British won 13 VCs, the Victoria Cross. 13 VCs. 13 VCs. Two in the first world war, 12 in the second world war, one in the Borneo Confrontation. And the living Vici in Kathmandu today is still alive today. He is the only living Vici in the colony. Because if the Vici was only allowed, permitted to be given to the Gurkhas in 1911, because before that it wasn't allowed. So you can imagine it was a lot before it could have been many more. So then as you know in Malaysia, Borneo Confrontation, in Foglen war, in Kosovo, in Afghanistan all together. In Afghanistan I think from 2001 to 2014 12 Gurkhas were killed and 16 were injured. And after that I don't know because I didn't find the result from then one. So for 206 years it's like and you should remember one thing is Nepal war. It wasn't even a colony of British. It's a separate sovereign country.   And you close it and come back. Every year go there, in somebody's country. Take the best cream of their youth and make them fight for your country. And in return you treat them like a class. Yes. We need to stop war. I don't like it. I like love. Love and friendship is the best way I think. What, Tim, in the Foglen's, were the Gurkhas angry? Am I correct? They didn't get to fight a battle? Not their fault but they weren't ordered into battle? I think it's all the British propaganda mission. I don't think that is the case because like as you say, before the Foglen war when the Gurkhas was to fight with the Argentine, the British propaganda mission used the propaganda paper and they keep distributing millenia propaganda paper saying that Gurkhas are like a beast, you know, blood sucking beast.  Things like that, you know, they were supposed to be your friend, your brother on arms, you know. You don't say those things, you don't even solve those things. And that's why the Argentinean went away and that's the reason they weren't that way. That's not the way to treat your own people, you know, your brother on arms. There are those who fear about the propaganda thing. So that was propaganda? Propaganda, there's nothing to do with the Gurkhas. They're talking like the Gurkhas are not like a machine, you know. Without blood filling or thinking mine or nothing, it's like a blood machine.  We are also human. Tim, we all understand that but I think it's a bit of maybe military folk tale that allegedly some of the Argentines believe if the Gurkhas get you, they're going to eat you, right? But it's actually not about... That's a fearsome reputation. So it's not... That's what the British had done from the beginning. It's only about privilege but never talk about their tragedy, never talk about their feeling, never talk about their warfare, never talk about their family, never talk about their life. That's the problem. Yes, of course. Of course. This is why so many people have been fighting for the Gurkhas' rights over the years. And yeah, Britain is... People won't like to hear this but historically we've been... Well, it goes both ways but we have been quite a racist nation. It still continues today and you see it... You see hints of it... I mean, I grew up in the 70s. It was incredibly racist time, much different to young people today. We were led to believe we were superior to other countries and other colours. And it's a horrible thing that I have to live with that. I have to live with that's how I was programmed when I was a kid by sort of cultural influences, by comedy and... Not comedy but by humour. We made fun of everybody but... Yeah, exactly. Even the Gurkha Bhatani looked British official and they had the same attitudes. They had the same activity. They did the same separately. There was a two different system. Yes, in irony, it's when I look at the world now and then I look at the way that tribes live. Nepal is a tribal country. Those guys have got it right. They have family, community, honour, simplicity.  They have it all right. The way that the West is going or the globe now... It's toxic. Everything is so wrong. All this nonsense. It's just so... I'd rather be in a Nepalese house drinking some whiskey, dancing around the fire, telling stories, than spending an evening just watching rubbish on my phone or pretending that people like me when they probably don't even care about me. Can we talk about the... Do I say it right, kukkuri? Kukkuri, yeah, kukkuri. Kukkuri, the legendary... In Nepal, we say it's kukkuri. Kukkuri. Yeah, kukkuri. And each one is handmade by a blacksmith, by a craftsman. Yeah, mostly it was the case. There was a craft of craftsmen around those Gurkhas area. Some of the Gurkha battalions during the World War II, they even produced by themselves. We found that here.  They're a special tool, I'm going to call it a tool, not a weapon, but I guess it's both. The famous knife, yeah? Yeah, the famous knife. Okay, I'm going to put some questions to you, Tim. Maybe some are silly. I don't know, but this is stuff I've grown up with, but hearing about the Gurkhas, every time you draw the kukkuri, you have to draw blood.  I knew it was. Is it true it's sharp enough that you can cut the head off a cow? I saw some photo years ago. Some of them, because they're a little bit bigger, because in Nepal they have this bigger and longer sacrificial knife. The kukkuri is bigger, so they use normally for their sacrificing the animals. Some of them can. And I've been seeing a story on the media. Gurkha, did he take out 30 Taliban in Afghanistan? Is this a true story or apparently they were surrounded and just picked up every weapon and emptied every magazine? I haven't really read too much about it. There was one guy who got the guy from the Gurkhas. He took out 17 Taliban with one machine gun. That's a real story. I think he won the G.C.B., you know, the gallantry out. Yes. That's true, but that is another story. That one Gurkha, that's an Indian Gurkha, he took out 30 bandits alone with a kukkuri. That happened in an Indian train when he was going home. There were some bandits trying to loot, trying to rob the passenger. The guy with the kukkuri who was going home on leave, then he single-handedly chased them all away. That's also true. Tim, I live in Plymouth. That's a normal day for us. Every time we go outside the front door. Tim, listen, this has been a fascinating chat. Thank you so much for coming on the show. I really hope we can meet in Hong Kong at some point. I don't know when I'm back in Hong Kong, but it would be nice to come over. Not only, my brother, and thank you very much for everything. Yes, and I wish you so much luck with the book. Friends at home with... Do I have a book? Yes. We're going to put links for the books, friends below the video on YouTube. Grab a copy. It's an incredible read. It's just so fascinating. There's so much stuff here that you're probably not going to hear in books that are maybe written by British officers. Yes, this is the other side of the story. If you were to step on above the book, we'll change after reading this book. It's a very nicely flowing read. You start reading and you can't put it down. Grab a copy. Tim, just stay there when I hit off the record button. I can thank you properly. Can I say Ayo Gurkali? Yes, Ayo Gurkali, yes. Thank you so much, Tim. Thank you so much. I know that honour is all of ours, and I wish you all the good cause and the people in the poor, all the best for the future. To our friends at home, I hope you enjoy this as much as I have. If you can like and subscribe and share this video, that will really help our channel. Much love to you all. Look after yourselves. Thank you.


All right. Well, thanks for coming at this late hour of the afternoon. My name is Armando Miyacho. I'm here speaking as a Neutron PTO and I'm handing over it to either of you guys. All right. We're going alphabetically. So my name is Christopher Price. I've been working in the OpenNV community. I've been a participant of the OpenStack community and Open Daylight for some years and here to talk about OpenNV networking and the role of Neutron. Hi everybody. I'm Rossellas Blanido. I am a Neutron core and I recently joined the Technical Steering Committee of OpenNV. Yeah, and I'm here to, you know, give this talk about the relationship between the two of them. Thanks. Very good. So more or less what we're going to do this is three parts. I'm going to talk a little bit about a little bit about OpenNV and then we'll talk a little bit about the features that are OpenNV related that are coming out through Neutron and then we'll talk a little bit about the history and futures and where Neutron's going I guess as a rough outline. So I can start very briefly to talk about OpenNV. I guess the first question is how many people actually know what OpenNV does and where it is and those sorts of things because we have maybe 20% of the room if we're lucky. Okay, so I will give a little brief introduction and I won't go too far through it. So OpenNV has a few key goals. One and primarily is to develop a platform, an integrated platform for carrier networks. A virtualization layer if you like, carrier networks. We don't want to build our own which is why we come to communities like OpenStack that provide the real, the foundation parts for carriers and how they're going to build these networks. So we work a lot with other communities and we spend our time trying to help communities collaborate together and find good solutions. We also strive to participate, strive to include the participation of end users. So we have a number of key operators who are actually on our governing board, AT&T, China Mobile, Telecom Italia and others. And we try and contribute. So if we have an idea, something we see as a need, we come to OpenStack and we say, hey, we need to solve this problem. Can we do this together? And then we of course try and contribute to these communities. Open Daylight, OpenStack, Linux, KVM. And trying to build at the end of the day an ecosystem for developing things. There's some statistics I won't go into because statistics are boring. But just to give an overview of OpenV then we build a cloud, right? That's what we do. We build a cloud. We build it for Telecom operators. So we try and look at what are the types of use cases that Telecom operators have. They have big clouds in the middle. They have medium sized clouds in different cities. Then they may have smaller clouds at the edge. And all of these things are serving different purposes and require different capabilities. So we look at all of those clouds. In a latest release, Colorado, we produced 47 different types of cloud. Just because there are that many different needs that we haven't been able to converge them into a common platform yet. But of course the purpose will be to do that eventually. And we do this through integration primarily. A lot of testing. We do a lot of testing of things that have already been tested. This is just what we do.  And we try and develop new features. And one of the key areas for us is the continuous integration, continuous deployment pipeline. We work very closely with the OpenStack team on this. And what we're trying to do is make it as easy as possible to build a cloud. We deploy I think over 10,000 clouds a year in our labs and infrastructure. And this is all based on this 47 different flavors that we have. And that's all through aggressive automation, I would say. So what we do, this is a map which is kind of hard to read. But at the framework level we have the CRC pipeline. That's all built around a set of infrastructures. Components, hardware types, different lab configurations and so on and so forth. And then on top of that we build in our infrastructure and tooling, analytics, orchestration, virtual infrastructure management, networking control, different types of networking approaches that we try out and we sort of integrate into these platforms. And then on top of it all you have the application layer, you have things that you may want to run like platform as a service type, execution environments, and all of this sort of sits over top what we do as an infrastructure as a service layer. As I mentioned, we did do a release recently in Colorado. Some key areas that came out in Colorado, we now have full IPv6 underlay overlay solutions in our platforms. We support multiple types of service function chaining. We can do VPM, BGP puring end to end. We have different hardware architecture. So we're not only deploying x86, we deploy it to native solution. So of our scenarios I think we have a dozen that have been ported to run both x86 and ARM. Because we see in smaller data centers at the edge of the network we may have ARM type architectures. So supporting multiple hardware is extremely important for us. And of course the DevOps in order to make this happen, extremely important. So we did a lot of work in that. And I think that's all I have as far as interaction is concerned. And I will pass it over. Thanks, Chris. So now let's move on and see a little bit what's the relationship between Neutron and OPNFV. Of course to understand that first we need to understand what NFV is. I don't know how many of you in the audience are familiar with the concept. I'm sure you heard the word. I'm not sure you know exactly what that means. So the idea is very simple. It's to virtualize physical appliances that are used by telcos to make sure that the traffic flows. So like radio equipment, router, firewalls. And you know it's more or less what happened at the beginning of the virtualization. Like we had lots of physical servers that were you know difficult to maintain. They were not scalable. So it's the same idea applied to network appliances. And you can imagine the benefits. Like you spare money. They are easier to maintain. It's easier to get orchestration. And so in order to do that, we need a reference architecture. So I'm taking it from Etsy. So let's try to understand what are these blocks. They can be a bit scary. So that's why I slightly modified it to make it a bit more human friendly. So we have the virtualize network function. So this is basically the virtualization of a network function. What's a network function? Could be anything. Could be firewalling. Could be DHCP. You name it. And this virtual network function, of course, they need an infrastructure. So we need to configure and manage this infrastructure. This is done by the management and orchestration. Maybe you heard the word manual. So that's what it does. So with an analogy, like we can think of this management of orchestration level like some kind of God. And then this virtual network function, they are animals, plants, and yeah, human being. And the infrastructure being the earth or any other planet you like where you can have life. I don't know if there are many. So let's have a look now at the opn of the architecture. You see it mirrors the diagram we've seen before. Just with some more information maybe. So they decided to use open stack as a VM. It's a virtual interface manager. And you can see there are three fields. There's the virtualization, the storage itself, and then there's the networking. So guess where Neutron is? Of course, the component that it's taking care of the networking. You can see that in the diagram. And as you can see, the most common configurations for opn of the are to use an SDN backend like open daylight, onus, or open contrary. So opn of the and Neutron. Neutron provides the API that the VNF manager can use to create and configure this network resources to be able to deliver the virtual network function. Of course, so there are two separate, so opn of the Neutron, they are separated project and community. And we started developing Neutron before opn of the existed. So there might be some friction. Like it always happens in good relationship. So you can have two kind of friction. One is tied to the models. Like in Neutron, of course, we have abstraction. We have models to be able to identify some network resources like port, network and so on. And so these models might not fit completely into the opn of the use cases. For example, in Neutron, a network is tied to an out to domain. And this doesn't work always well with opn of the use cases. For example, it doesn't work very well with BGP VPN. And then the other kind of friction that you can have is that maybe the API is missing some piece. Maybe you want to extend it. And this is already happening. For example, there is the networking SFC project that is inside the Neutron stadium. And what it basically does, it provides the API to configure service function chaining. And we try to collaborate. And one good example of this collaboration is the new feature that just landed in Neutron. It was really wanted by the NFV people. And it took quite some time to deliver it. But we made it. And I just want to explain a little bit what this feature is about. The idea is to be able to get target traffic to the VM. And also that the VM should be able to send tag traffic. This is very important for NFV because, as I was saying before, the goal is to virtualize appliances. And sometimes you might have a legacy application that uses target traffic to ensure isolation. And so you really need to get target traffic to the VM. And another good use case could be that you might need to connect a VM to several networks. And it's not very scalable to create new interfaces, one interface for every network if you can use the VLAN subinterface. And then, of course, this feature is also useful for containers because you can then use VLAN to isolate the traffic inside the VM to be able to handle several containers. And for this feature, we added two new entities. One is the trunk port that, as the name says, this is the concept of a trunk, so it's a port that can receive tag traffic. And then we have a support that it's associated with a trunk and is identified by a segmentation ID. So the traffic that flows through the support has only a specific VLAN ID. So I just wanted to quickly show you a little bit how it works in the OVS implementation. So here in the graph, we have a VM with a trunk port and a support with a segmentation ID 10. As you see, to be able to handle this target traffic, we introduced a new bridge, the trunk bridge that is the one in charge of the tag traffic. So now let's see what's the path of the packet when the VM is sending untagged traffic. So the untagged traffic will go through the trunk port. You see the square there, the white square. And the trunk port, it's on network two, so it's the red line. So the packet will go to the trunk bridge. And on the trunk bridge, we have a patch port, TPT. And we have the pair of this patch port that it's on the on BRI in TPI. So the untagged traffic will flow through this patch port and then to the pair TPI. In TPI, I put the red circle because that's a tagged port. It's tagged with a segmentation ID five because I assume that in this compute host, five is belanded, it's used internally by the obvious agent to separate the traffic between the networks. Now let's see what happens when VM one is sending traffic tagged with segmentation ID 10. So it will go through the support that it's the blue diamond. Then it will get to the trunk bridge there. We have this patch port SPT that it's tagged with segmentation ID 10, so it will flow there. Then it will get to the pair that it's SPI. As you see, it's tagged, but with a different tag. It's a triangle, so it's segmentation ID seven because seven is the local VLAN ID that the obvious agent uses for network one. And I can hand it over to Armando now. Right. So I won't go into deep dive and VLAN over VMs, but what I will do is to double click on some of the things that Rosella and Chris have touched on when it comes to Neutron and OPNFV. Some of you may actually wonder what Neutron is all about anyway. We've already seen this black box without really drilling down into the internals. I mean, to start off Neutron besides a code base, as some of you may wonder, is primarily a community of people who are gathering around a virtual round table called OpenStack and decide to collaborate and use the open stack way. And when the project was started, the major objective of the project was to devise abstractions for any networking constructs in a self-provision manner. And even though at the very beginning, one of the main tenets was providing overlay networking in the form of a logical layer 2 broadcast domain, the API and again the abstractions underpinning it were devised in such a way that we could strive to extend certain concepts, you know, alter certain concepts and make sure that these concepts again are the best of all, but it is technologically agnostic, so they can map on top of physical implementations, they may vary. So that meant that the API to some degree can be considered somewhat polymorphic and underneath the API you can plug different components. And I'm actually borrowing a picture, I couldn't even be bothered to change the name. Quantum is actually the former name of the quantum, quantum is how Newton was formerly known. We had to change the name for legal reasons. And I'm borrowing this picture from an old slide deck which exemplifies a little bit what I just described. And these compositions of services and components, it's something that we tend to refer to as stadium, which is again this fancy name for just describing a list of projects that are related to one another to deliver networking services on top of this core backbone that makes up like Neutron as a whole. And features and collaborations end up being managed and driven by what we call Neutron drivers, which is a set of people who have been around in the Neutron community and project for long enough to be blamed for all the mistakes and all the good things that have happened in the project.  The Neutron server, which is again one key component of the Neutron deployment is what makes up the part, you know, the bulk of the system.  The key piece here is the API abstraction. And the API abstraction is where the magic is. And it is fulfilled by what we call plugins. And we have plugins that span from core plugins that implement what we call like a very subset, a core subset of networking abstractions that are used by other projects in OpenStack like Nova or Heat, Solometer and so on, Magnum, the more, you know, the more you can come up with the better. And other services, they may consider like somewhat optional or appropriate or like suitable for addressing more niche needs, things like load balancing or firewall and so on. And all these components again can collaborate together in a loosely coupled fashion in order to deliver networking services. The fact that this is a very composable architecture means that two neutron deployments may not necessarily look alike. So you may have like a cloud that is meant to do something like AWS CC2 that is powered by a neutron deployment that has just, you know, a core plugin and an L3 plugin. And you can have another cloud that may be using a telco environment that's being configured to do something completely different that's very, you know, very, you know, telco driven where you may have like something like BGP VPN and service function chaining. And as I, you know, I have sort of like briefly skipped over, these plugins themselves can provide, do provide a pluggable framework for tapping into potentially like SDN controllers or built-in agents and then they map the logical API artifacts on top of like physical constructs. So obviously, you know, I would be naive to think that the platform would be ready and, you know, functionally complete from day one. There are gaps. The project has grown organically over time. But obviously, there are gaps, right? There is only so many people who are involved at any given time in the project and the project is still relatively young. So the question sometimes that we get asked is, is this feature ready or is this a gap that exists? I think that these questions are valid, but I think that the more crucial question is are these gaps, can these gaps be overcome? So is the platform and the project arranged in such a way that these gaps can be filled over time? So is the platform, A, like extensible or like modular enough that things can be composed in a way that not only a single person, well, many persons can understand at once what they're dealing with, not giving again the knowledge of the whole thing to a God type of person. And B, is the project adopting a set of processes and procedures to enable collaboration at scale. And I mean, looking back at the various releases that we've gone through and having been involved as core and BDL, I would think that we've established a set of procedures and architectural guidelines where things, again, these gap filling exercise, it's somewhat of a success. Obviously, you know, we make mistakes and we look back and try to iterate on our mistakes and fix them. And the reason why I bring this up, because I want to touch base on something known as a net rate in the OPNFV project, which as far as I understand, and obviously Chris, keep me honest here, is a project aimed at identifying, again, what are the gaps that Neutron as a platform has when it comes to fulfilling OPNFV requirements. And you can find like the whole set of requirements and gap identified and the link at the very bottom of the slide deck. And here I've sort of like summarized in this bullet list a number of them. And the one marked with the crosses are the ones that I somewhat disagree with. And the one with the dixies are the ones that acknowledge that it's something that the Neutron community has to work on. And I would be happy to drill down into those, but maybe we can do that in a question and answer type of fashion. I have no more slides and again I open up to questions. A round of applause, no? That's fine. So I think just to paraphrase, I mean so what Neutron provides and I think coming back to the point of this topic, Neutron provides us with a network control function that allows us to move natively from open stack into the network and start to manage that network. We see that for instance we've done studies in OPNFV which show that Neutron doesn't necessarily solve every problem in the world. That's kind of okay, Neutron doesn't need to solve every problem in the world. I think there are other architectures, other approaches. We know there's a bunch of SDN controllers out there that want to be able to and do integrate today. And as we move forward we explore how to solve some of these problems, some which are relevant to the Neutron community, some which may not be relevant to the Neutron community. And we try and find ways of establishing how we can realize these moving forwards and essentially coming to an understanding of how to make progress as a community. And I think from an OPNFV perspective, we see Neutron as a very stable and constantly improving network control function. And for us as you saw on the slides, it's one of many that we work with. So I think it's part of the ecosystem. It's from an open stack perspective, the primary networking focused ecosystem that we want to work with. And certainly we want to find ways of making sure that we can integrate those other solutions and other architectures into an open stack platform. And I would like to add also that Neutron, as I mentioned earlier, is a community, is a system that you can deploy and play with and blame or hate or love. But it is also the mean, the vehicle to getting access to your workloads. Ultimately, an open stack is about VMs, containers, bare metals, things that can crunch data. And if you think about Nova, you think about Ironic, Neutron is the key of the Basel that is used by these projects in order to provide networking services. So again, it's that interface that allows workloads to get access to the pipes. So that is also another thing that I would like to stress and highlight. And it is important to realize that, as Chris mentioned, we don't necessarily have to bloat the plumbing layer. We can figure out ways to cut it out, slice it in such a way that it doesn't fall under its own weight. But that has to be done in coordination and cooperation with the entire open stack ecosystem, ecosystem of projects, not just like looking and dealing with Neutron alone. So for instance, there have been initiatives that some of you may be familiar with, like Loon, that tend to look at how Nova and Neutron interface to one another. And in order to address certain issues with that, we will have to look at both projects in conjunction. Yeah. Yes. If you can go to the mic, I mean, that would be great. Otherwise, you can speak very loudly and we'll try to replay the question. Thank you. Okay, so given that there are gaps in Neutron that you mentioned, and Neutron has plugins to various SDN controllers, does it make sense? I guess when does it make sense to fill in the gaps in Neutron versus in the SDN controller themselves? Yeah, that's a good question. You end up, there is no hard and fast rule, really. You make a judgment call on a case-by-case basis. And ultimately, you see this question addressed by the needs of the persons and the people involved in certain initiatives. We tend to privilege access to open source technologies as far as Neutron goes. So, so long as there are technologies that we can access to in terms of SDN controllers or, again, we can consider open and accessible, then so long as we realize that we agree on a common abstraction that can be easily implemented, the map onto different implementations, you can go and chase, like an SDN controller-based implementation first, and then you can go and tap into other possible venues. Maybe you can go into proper areas then, controller path, or you can take a path where you end up building the entire stack yourself, like, for instance, we've done for some of the services and some of the plugins. So, again, it's somewhat like the answer is it varies. And I've seen examples in the past where we chose one or the other, depending on how fast you want to get to market, so to speak.  It's not that easy. Can I fit ICN into Neutron? That's something I probably wouldn't try and do because that's just going to cause more problem than it's worth. So, I'd find another way, and I'd find a way of integrating that into the solution if I wanted an ICN-based data center. I think it's practical. We have to think about how to do things. Neutron is an attractive venue to get work done where it fits in to what Neutron is doing because Neutron is native to open stack, right? It's the place, if you want everyone in open stack to be immediately accessible to technology, it's a great place to get stuff done. If you want to address things in a different way or take a completely different approach, then maybe there's other venues that are worth doing that. Yeah, I'd also like to add, it depends a lot on the kind of gap. If the gap is some new functionality that you want to add, then it might make sense to go to an SDN controller, but if the model doesn't really fit well, then I think the right solution is to discuss with the Neutron community and to see what you can do and try to find a common point. It doesn't really work simply to skip this step and just to use some custom SDN solution. Yeah, I mean, from a practical standpoint, asking the question, can you do it in Neutron ultimately boils down to choosing whether you want to Python and you want to expose a REST API that looks like the Neutron API and it boils down to, again, the layer, the API layer that the Neutron server provides to the other OpenStack services. And if you're uncomfortable with neither of those options, you want to use a different language or you want to expose the REST API in a different way, then obviously that effort cannot happen in the context of the Neutron as the software system, but, again, the Neutron community is still pretty inclusive and open to addressing any type of innovation required in order to address any of the needs so that if someone else wants to come along and want to do that in Neutron because they're not sort of because they really have no spare time on their ends, I mean, they have spare times on their ends, then by all means it's an OpenSource community. It means that anyone is welcome to step up and, you know, roll up their sleeves and do work. I mean, that's a lot of work. So, yeah. Good. Any other questions? Any hard questions? Well, it seems like we've either done a good job or a terrible job. Paul, thank you for joining us. Thank you very much.


So I did a video a few months ago about free NAS replication tasks. Free NAS replication, much like the name sounds will replicate data sets from one free NAS to another free NAS. This is an excellent way to use the power of ZFS to replicate data over to another ZFS system. Free NAS data makes this pretty easy to do with their interface. They have a really cool system for connecting it to another free NAS server. But I don't want people to mistake this for it's mirroring the server. It's mirroring the data sets you choose. Now I have, like I said, a more in-depth video that gets into how to set that up and showing how that works. But this mirroring process, in terms of mirroring a data set, not a server, works really, really well and is very efficient and can work over even a lower bandwidth connections. Because it uses the file level, the block level of ZFS to compare the two systems and get the data over to the other system. So any minor file changes you make, it can look at the binary differences between them, not just a file copy differences like other tools such as R-Sync, and then get that data moved over there. So it's looking at a differential between the data sets at the block level, which is one of the reasons it's so fast and efficient. Essentially it's referred to as like syncing the deltas. So the delta is the difference between one system and the other in terms of the files at the file level, block level. So this has been set up for quite a while. We've been using it for a long time and this is my LTS video work. So all the video files, because videos are big, we store them all on the free NAS. It makes it really easy to edit. My system has a 10 gig connection from the workstation I'm recording this on and it's dumping over a SMB share over to this free NAS box right here. It works really, really well. But of course, you know, I don't trust a single box because even though it's a RAID array, even though ZFS is very resilient, bad things happen sometimes and those bad things sometimes include entire server motherboard meltdown failure catastrophic. The other things that can happen are some weird corruption from some weird thing that happened as well. Like I said, there's all kinds of edge cases. You can't trust a single machine for backup ever. Just not a good idea.  Now these snapshots are also taken every day. So the replication is based on the snapshot frequency we snapshot daily, which means we replicate daily one day is fine for my videos. But for some scenarios for some clients when we put redundant servers in, they want snapshots done every hour because losing one hour of data has a cost associated with it. So maybe you want to set this more frequently. There is obviously a cost if I dumped a bunch of videos, I did them one day. Then the cash traffic failure happens before the replication task, but one day seems like a good enough risk for me for doing the data. Now keep snapshot for one week. I'm keeping snapshots for one week because that gives me seven days to figure out that I oops to file or deleted something. So for example, if I were to accidentally go in and purge something I needed, I have up to seven days from that snapshot was taken to roll back to it. And that's pretty easy to do. So we go to storage snapshots. And then you can choose a snapshot. Here's LTS video work from five nine, five four, you know, different dates here. And we could just clone or roll it back now rollback versus clone rollback means just reset it back to that state in that instance clone means create another copy of it so I can see something so I don't touch the main data. But I've made another folder essentially where I can look at what it looked like then and see the difference between them. These are, you know, features of snapshots. But what about the replication? Well, the replication goes over to another free NAS server. And we're still running the 11 one dash use seven train on this one because with this one we want it to because I have clients that still have questions about 11 one. This sometimes makes these rancher leaving a production but as those questions fall off I'll eventually swap this one 11 to but it works perfectly fine you can replicate between free NAS versions doesn't seem to be any compatibility problems that I found at all. But like I said eventually I will move this to 11 to now here's those same snapshots the replication test doesn't just replicate the last snapshot every replicates all the previous snapshots all the time so they also have one week retention. Now there's no snapshot task on here, doing this. So when you look at the periodic snapshot tasks. There's one for some other things we have on here but there's not one for there so with the replication test there's none on here because everything starts at the 3.8 and moves back over to this one. Well, I refer to this one as dozer and this one is tanks everything starts at dozer moves over to tank which is our 34 server. This data is being replicated between these. And way we go so we have a backup and the next part that people get a little bit confused about I'm going to show you what it looks like from a command prompt level is here is the dozer one at the bottom and here's all the video files and here's the tank one at the top and here's all the video files. I had just done this video for free NAS you for the other day and you can see it is there. Now this is where sometimes people get confused. Can you work off or edit from this other server. You'll mess things up if you do so there's not a way to do anything but read only all the files that are on the destination of the replication. So some people think that like there's an easy way just to push the data back. Free NAS doesn't have any automated one click push because the replication task takes a landing area that landing area being this particular free NAS server. And this is the source so this one pushes all the data over to this one but it's not a two way synchronization system this is not our sync this is not a mirroring system like a rate or a between two servers this is a it takes the data and moves over there. Now if you want to restore anything you have to go through either a create a replication task that sets the other server as a destination or our sync the files or copy the files via you know a share things like that. When it comes to restoring it's not like it's like oh there's a problem let me just hit a button and push it back the other way. Free NAS doesn't exactly work that way and this is a question it seems to come up quite a bit is can I just instantly mirror it back over there. That's not how this particular system works there are systems that do that for example I use syncing for some of our other data and by changing things in one syncing pool it will change it in the other syncing pools but that's a different tool and the same with our sync you can use our sync to our sync two folders that's another method you may want to use if you want that type of feature. So when you have it constantly are sinking between the two of them. When you do it in one it can push the changes back together and vice versa. So with this system here if there was a failure I would have to kind of manually do the data back this is not like fail over in NC but I want to make sure that's actually something I really want. So if anything does occur what I'm going to notice because while my video server be offline to I want to figure out what was the cause you know was it some type of destructive thing did someone get in there and hack something. Whatever the reason was over on this side I want to know before I start pushing the data I want to maintain this as a data integrity. Downside is with it automatically replicating if I you know had something in here that I deleted all the files and I waited seven days it would replicate away all that data so that's why you have to think about retention but I figure within seven days I'll notice something's wrong so I have seven days to catch up with fixing the problem. But it's actually pretty simple you can easily access all the data here I could just open up a share but once you do that do any type of read write on the replication it will stop replicating because it relies you tampered with the files and caused a lot of errors but not a big deal. The best way to do it would actually be because here's how it looks would be just to clone one of these snapshots for a read write and be able to pull the files out and create a share on it. The replicating data back is not that hard and that's what I wanted to cover there's not really a simple way to do it other than creating another replication task if you had to do it and let's walk through a catastrophic failure. If this server were to completely melt down destroy itself and be unrecoverable the drives through some type of why don't know lightning strike high powered surge that wrecks every drive simultaneously or it falls or something whatever something catastrophic or this drive is not recoverable. It wouldn't be that hard to simply build a new free NAS server. Go over here replication and replicate it back the other way that's actually completely possible once you've replicated it once that way you start the process over and replicate it back to this server if I needed to. So I just want to cover that kind of as a planning thinking about how you do these. Not that hard to do but there's not a one click backup for it's more or less what I would purpose this video because I've just every time someone asked well isn't there just a quick way to keep these in sync all the time and restore like a disaster recovery. There is but it's still kind of a manual process you just go through the replication process in reverse so it's not too hard to do it's just a simple process.  We've been using it for a long time I've never had a problem with it I've actually never had to restore because I'm reasonably careful with the exception of that one time he deleted a music folder when I was purging out old videos. But that's the one time I had to do the restore and I just had to go through a snapshot excited oh oops and had to roll back one day to put my music folder back other than that I've never had a problem. Doing it but you know it's important to have all these things on here and it's if you didn't have them Murphy's Law says if you didn't have any backups you definitely would oops a bunch of things and not be able to roll back. So hopefully this is a helpful kind of explainer this still works great I will link to the snapshot video and how you do the replication down below. But it's so all the reasons we love CFS we love the way it works for in freeing asked to you know maintain and manage all the data that we have on here. It definitely works straight for that you can use this for other things such as if I wanted to snapshot and replicate for example all the VMs I have stored on here. I could but I actually still use Zen Orchestra to manage all the backups for that because I think it handles them in a better way. Alright thanks. Thanks again for watching this video and see you next time.