Hello everybody, my name is Jakob Hallgren. I am the Swedish ambassador to the Republic of Korea I would like to welcome you all to democracy in the times of corona this event is co-hosted by the Embassy of Sweden in Seoul and International idea the International Institute for democracy and electoral assistance I'm so incredibly glad that we could organize this important and I think very timely discussion and it takes place it takes place both virtually With global participation quite a few countries and also live with an exclusive audience here at the Swedish residence in In Seoul while we're only some 10 people here at the Swedish residence respecting social distancing We're almost 500 people joining so it's really great to to have you So today we're going to look into issues of how Democracy is coping with the existential challenge of COVID-19 and this with three prominent democracies in the spotlight It's Australia. It's the Republic of Korea and it's Sweden So we will look at how this pandemic has affected elections institutions trust in in government among other things And a key reason for us to organize this event today is the Swedish government's drive for democracy And it's that is a policy that stems from the conviction that we all have a duty to raise awareness of the fact that democracy is actually in decline in the world today and That we also have to mobilize all the support and good forces for the fundamental principles of of democracy Now I hope that today's discussion will both make us wiser and maybe give us hope And some good ideas of how to expand defend and expand democracy and democratic values and We have an amazing program today first We're honored to have a first high-level panel with no less than three foreign ministers the foreign ministers of Australia the Republic of Korea and Sweden and with that the secretary general of international idea, that's quite amazing I think and after that first panel we're going to have a short break and as a second part of today's event And I really encourage you to stay for that We will have a fascinating expert panel with three professors and an eminent expert from international idea and During this latter session you will all both you here at the in the live audience and all you out there We were able to put questions I really encourage you to start to think of questions that you can send in to us online Now I will soon give the floor to dr. Kevin Casa Samora who is the secretary general of international idea and who will be our moderator for this high-level session Dr. Casa Samora has more than 25 years experience in democratic governance as a researcher as an educator and also as a public official and I think he imbear embodies a rare combination of a distinguished academic career strongly focused on Electoral systems and democratic institutions with also practical experience as a high-level public official in his native in Costa Rica But also in international organizations. So with this and without further ado I would like to give the floor to dr. Casa Samora, please Ambassador Halgren And to the Swedish embassy in Seoul for organizing this event Alongside international idea In record time I should say and this is a part of the Sweden's drive for democracy, which is a key Priority of the Swedish government one which we had idea and to seastically support For those of you who are not so familiar with international idea We are an intergovernmental organization with 33 member states With the exclusive mandate to support and strengthen democratic institutions and processes around the world Our work has a dual nature on the one hand. We produce cutting-edge Comparative and policy friendly knowledge of matters related to electoral processes political parties and representation constitutional processes and democratic governance writ large and On the other hand We help to apply this knowledge on the ground through technical assistance Aim at policymakers civil society groups institutions political parties at the at the national and local levels This year we happen to be celebrating our 25th anniversary and for that reason as well We are particularly glad To co-organize this event Together with one of our founding member states and our host country, Sweden And to have another founding member state Australia taking part in this this event. We're truly grateful Both of you for the support That your countries have provided international idea for the past five years But we're also Very honored to have the foreign minister of the Republic of Korea joining us today Is specially through our Asia Pacific regional program We have been very grateful for the for the different collaboration opportunities with the Republic of Korea and The ability To draw on the important Democratic experience and expertise Of its institutions Now let me say a word about the topic of this of this web We have all witnessed in the past three months or so the That the coronavirus pandemic Is drastically changing the world causing Disruption of a magnitude probably not seen since the end of the second world war Aside from the global health crisis that has cost a Over 400 000 that's already the world most likely will be faced with a destabilizing Profound economic crisis it already is But also in our view There will be profound political implications that stem from this pandemic until now political leaders at all levels Have been responding to this crisis with an unprecedented set of measures aimed to curb the spread of the virus protect public health And keep the economy afloat Around the world authoritarian regimes Have started using the crisis to silence critics and tighten their political grip on power But even some democratically elected governments are fighting the pandemic by amassing emergency powers That in many cases restrict from the mental rights While the use of extraordinary measures and emergency powers Can be justified a To address the current health crisis Some measures such as silencing Critical media and arresting journalists harassing civil society groups or using minorities as scapegoats Are much harder to justify from the democratic standpoint In the upcoming discussion we're going to deliberate On what the current corona pandemic means for democracy and for democracy support in general But we'll do so through the lens Of the cases of australia the republic of korea and sweden as per The international idea global state of democracy report of 2019, which is one of our flagship products All three australia the republic of korea and sweden are among the highest performing democracies in the world But there are strategies and responses to the pandemic have varied Revealing the nuances and the importance of a national context So we hope that discussion will reveal some interesting insights on First how democracies can Balance mitigation of the outbreak while still respecting democratic principles such as accountability and transparency and full respect for civil and political rights second We expect the discussion to highlight the importance of robust institutions Of levels of societal trust and access to information when dealing with a pandemic without undermining democracy And and therefore I think the lessons learned from the from the experience of australia the republic korea and sweden Are very germane to this discussion and number three I Certainly hope the discussion will shed light on the medium and longer term implications of coven 19 for democracy So these are some of the of the issues that our speakers will be dealing with today Before we get to The questions and the dialogue that I I hope to to have with our very distinguished Guests, I am very honored to welcome the the three foreign affairs ministers That will take the floor for all too short five minutes a To do some introductory remarks And we'll start with her excellency senator mary spain minister of foreign affairs of australia senator pain has been A senator for the state of new south wales In her native country for more than 20 years And has served most recently as minister for defense between 2015 and 2018, but before that She was minister for human services and she held several shadow Ministry level positions so without further delay senator minister pain The floor is yours Thank you very much secretary general and good evening from from australia Thank you for inviting me to speak with you all tonight And it's very good to see my counterparts again Anna and kumwa wonderful to to join you virtually Again, we have been taking the opportunity in these times of cova 19 to Catch up virtually in some very valuable exchanges Secretary general, can I thank you? And international idea for hosting this webinar With his excellency the ambassador of sweden To the republic of korea. I think our discussion Today provides a good platform for democracies like ours to reiterate the importance of key values and principles of transparency of accountability The rule of law The international rules based order and human rights Importantly, we can't afford to let cova 19 distract us From the need to both protect and promote these principles and to call out instances where we see Them being undermined These are core values and principles which guide australia's engagement particularly as a member of the un human rights council As we do emerge from this crisis and look to recovery To this end, we warmly welcomed the world health assembly's consensus on the need for an independent impartial and comprehensive evaluation into cova 19 We called for such a review because as a democracy we know that openness and Transparency are essential to learning the lessons of the pandemic And we look to countries like sweden and korea to work with us to improve global pandemic prevention and to build the capability of key multilateral agencies like the world health organization So while democracies are dealing with the pandemic's impact and grappling with the challenges of recovery We have seen some actors use this as an opportunity to undermine democracy And to promote a much more authoritarian agenda and the secretary general made broad reference to some of those One in our own region here in the indopacific I is the decision by china's national peoples congress to pass new national security laws that will be imposed on hong kong With a number of international counterparts particularly from britain from canada of the united states We have expressed deep concern about this decision Which was taken importantly without the direct participation of the hong kong people There is genuine concern that the legislation will undermine one country two systems That it will erode human rights and individual freedoms that have been guaranteed by the basic law And by the 1984 syno-british joint declaration Further We see the particular importance of online information during the pandemic which has created space for disinformation And that disinformation is literally specifically purposefully designed to sow order and distrust and that has happened in multiple examples around the world So we are all being tested Australia will always support the right to peaceful protest But even peaceful gatherings like the black lives matter protests that took place in australia around In across the last weekend in support of the global movement Even they are as we see them forcing societies and governments to make difficult decisions decisions about the balance of respect for civil and political rights With the safety of communities indeed including the safety of protesters themselves and this is a matter of some Discussion and debate including here in australia at the moment But ultimately that's where democracies are able to show their strength Their true strength with openness with accountability and with respect for individual human rights democratic systems Can encourage the confidence of their populations even in the midst of a crisis I wanted to cite an example around a gender equality as well as one example of a human right Which is a strong feature of liberal democracies which empower women's leadership Which enhance their safety their security and their economic opportunity Gender equal policies enable us to lead to more prosperous and sustainable sustainable societies Without the disparities which are often common in authoritarian regimes Many would say that democracies may sometimes look imperfect And they like most things in life are really 100 percent perfect But with the airing of disagreements with the admission of mistakes where they're made They can be stronger for it Because self-governed people ultimately have the trust in a common mission That is being proven again through the covid-19 crisis and hopefully will support our process as individually And together we work towards recovery. Thank you very much Thank you very much Minister Payne, I'd now like to invite her Excellency Kan Kyun-Wa for a minister of the Republic of Korea Dr. Kyun-Wa Has been the senior advisor on policy to the united nation's secretary general And was previously the deputy high commissioner at the office of the un high commissioner for human rights And those are merely the highlights of a very long and distinguished career in the diplomacy of her country Please minister dr. The floor is yours Yes, thank you so much and thank you for Giving me this opportunity to join you for today's webinar I'm really grateful to the swedish ambassador here ambassador helgren and the international idea for hosting this very timely and important event and i It's wonderful to see my friends marisa and and and the other friends from australia and sweden And of course the other distinguished participants on an issue of such great importance At this critical time for the world As should we all say the impact of covid-19 pandemic has been overwhelming in all aspects of our lives And has exposed and deepened the existing social economic and political fault lines In our own countries as well as in the international community And some of the fundamental values that we are used to taking for granted such as democracy and human rights Have been threatened and come under doubt Indeed in the early stages of the pandemic There were questions over the effectiveness of democracies in the fight against this fast spreading virus While some of the authoritarian governments seem to be successfully flattening the curve And even in countries long committed to democratic values and human rights Concerns concerns were raised and still continue about the use of digital technology In the efforts to contain covid-19 Turning into tools of mass surveillance and control The detriment of fundamental human rights Korea as you know was one of the first countries to be hit by a huge surge in covid-19 cases And by necessity more than choice it we have been a few steps ahead In trying to curb the virus while also dealing with these and other tough questions And for a while as the surge kept climbing it seemed as if it could spiral out of control But thanks to the whole of government efforts and active engagement with citizens in Massive testing contact tracing and treatment. We managed to flatten the first big wave And it was during this time of a plateauing curve in mid april that we held our nationwide parliamentary elections on schedule But alarmingly the curve has turned upwards again recently Due to some cluster infections in the metropolitan's whole area Originating from nightclubs logistic centers Religious facilities and other places where large numbers of people gather in closed proximity Clearly there is no room for complacency against this virus Which travels very fast and very silently because people without symptoms can be infectious So we continue to adapt our measures to the changing pattern in the spread of the virus While sticking to our principles of full transparency and openness I think in the previous session of this webinar dr. Casas identified three areas of concern for any democratic regime In this time of global crisis namely freedom of movement freedom of information and elections and i'm very reassured to know that they are indeed The same elements that my government has worked hard to safeguard while fighting COVID-19 and indeed I think it is safe to say that because we have preserved the three Our fight against COVID-19 has been effective and sustainable On the freedom of movement this has been the key pillar of our principle of openness We have kept society open without a whole of wholesale lockdown or shutdown We have sought balance between the virus containment measures and sustained economic and everyday life activities Without closing the border. We have managed the inbound traffic of people both korean and foreign nationals without discrimination With measures that are proportionate to the changing risk of the virus coming in with the travelers We were able to do this because of our robust testing and tracing regime Which quickly identifies positive cases and their close contacts so that they may be quarantined And the rest of society can freely move about and without these I think keeping society open and preserving the freedom of movement for the general public Would have been much more difficult in one of the most densely populated countries in the world On freedom of information this has been served by the uncompromising transparency that has guided government action from the very beginning of the crisis Even when government measures were failing to meet public expectations For example over the issue of the facial mask supplies I can't tell you for how long we have struggled with this issue until we got the formula right But it took us nearly two months of much criticism from parliament from the media And we almost felt we couldn't do anything But we were patient and in the end with some help from the private sector We were able to come to a solution But full disclosure about what we know and don't know about the virus spread and government actions Through the twice daily public greetings and q&a's with the press Has required much work But this has also won the trust of the people that the government was doing our very best We may not be satisfactory, but at least we were trying our very best and this also prevented Panic buying and other mass behaviors that can be fueled by distrust in government And of course the clearest confirmation of that trust was the highest voter turnout In nearly three decades for the april 15 elections Furthermore, our disease control and prevention law stipulates the public's right to know about health risks that could affect them And this has been fulfilled by public service alerts delivered to smartphones About the anonymized trajectories of positive cases And I think the concern over the privacy of the patient is rather overblown Because what is shared Through the alerts is only the location and the time of the places along the trajectory of a patient Without indicating his or her name occupation or address And this public trust in government has translated into civic participation and cooperation In the stringent social distancing measures and other guidance is advised by the government It is also encouraged citizens to come up with creative solutions to complement the government actions And indeed our now famous drive-through testing was proposed by a young doctor The distribution of the facial mass has been greatly facilitated by applications developed by private citizens And there are such myriad of such applications and the government work has been then to scale up The useful solutions so that they can be made available country-wide On elections idea report on our nationwide elections of april 15 is very comprehensive thorough And I greatly appreciate it and I do concur with the conclusion that our experience may not be applicable in other countries But still our national election commission has been organizing webinars and online symposiums with election management authorities of various countries to share our Experiences and these have been very lightly productive and I'm told very very detailed Every country context is unique and ours may not be the best practice to consider for many We have a very advanced IT infrastructure, which has certainly been painful But more than the IT. It has really been the human power in tracing. It has really been the Epidemiological teams who investigate all the sites along the trajectory and interview the people around So as to identify the close contacts and no amount of technology can replace the leg work And the human touch of these teams of professionals and trained volunteers And I'm sure for the april 15 elections too. There were lots of data platforms and digital technology Mobilized in the run-up during and after the day But what mattered most for the people to feel safe in coming to exercise their constitutional rights Was the human face the workers the staff of the central election commission and the countless volunteers Who guided the voters through long queues? Look took their fever checks Helped them to use hand sanitizers and put on disposable gloves outside the voting stations Checked their identities against their residency registry and handed out the voting slips Made sure their slips went into the ballot box And then escorted them to the exit So in the end, I think technology is only as good or bad as how it is used And we have certainly endeavored to use it widely wisely with full accountability to the people We are a government about serving the people and I think the failures of the recent past Make us particularly keen on this point But in the end, this is the whole point of government Any government that is to serve the people and do our very best to keep them safe And secure and I am sure everybody can agree to that point. Thank you Thank you so much minister fascinating fascinating remarks Last but not least I'm pleased to invite Foreign minister and linda of sweden Minister linda has had a long and distinguished career in public service in her country Before she became minister of foreign affairs. She was minister for foreign trade Minister for you EU affairs and trade and state secretary and the ministry of justice Please minister the floor is yours. Thank you very much Excellencies dear guests friends Let me first extend my thanks to international idea and the swedish embassy in Seoul For hosting this important conversation on the implication of the covid-19 response for democracy and the rule of law I want to especially thank international idea and new secretary and royal kevin kasasamora For moderating this webinar And the work you're doing in idea and also my colleagues Foreign minister maris pain and foreign minister kankyong wa And I think it's fascinating how often we see each other and talk to each other In this pandemic Even though I long for some some personal meetings again But still it's not only bad Um, I look forward to to this discussion today And I also want to thank those of you who take part via the internet Uh today's webinar is the latest in a series of democracy talks held at the swedish missions around the world The themes has ranged over a number of topics violence against women during quarantine Women's and girls mental health during the pandemic media freedom safety for journalists and the protection of human rights defenders among other themes With the covid-19 pandemic the world faces a common difficulty Different strategies to deal with the spread of the virus have emerged In some countries Decisions have been taken to detainment of fundamental freedoms We need these restrictions to end as soon as the pandemic allows it To stop the spread of the virus effectively while staying true to democratic ideals can be a challenge Every opportunity to learn from each other's experience is a welcome one Fundamentally, we all share the same goal to save life and protect public health Sweden is dealing with the same challenges and we are using similar tools as most other countries promoting social distancing Protecting vulnerable risk groups and reinforcing our health system to cope with the pandemic In order to counter trends of backsliding democracy and weak and respect for human rights Our government is pursuing a global drive for democracy In the context of the covid-19 pandemic, we have seen that our drive for democracy is as relevant as ever We received reports of potential negative effects of measures to combat covid-19 on civil society actors human rights defenders and media workers Sweden is working hard to make sure that human rights democracy and the rule of law are put at the heart of the global response to the coronavirus In the short as well as in the long term We have therefore gathered the united nation the eu the osce and the council of europe To see how we can mobilize internationally I've held meetings with both national and international civil society actors about the effects of the corona on human rights Sweden priorities include supporting and strengthening the civil society Strengthen respect for freedom of expression and information and reducing inequalities We need to commit to creating and uphelding the public trust in democratic systems and institutions There are aspects to democracy which we need to uphold despite the pandemic such as labor rights It is crucial to ensure transparency and access to reliable information The right to health not only depends on accessible healthcare But also to the possibility of staying informed We must also effectively counter this information As there are those who are trying to make use of the pandemic to saw discord and weaken the public's trust in democratic institutions Any emergency responses and restrictions in response to covid-19 must be in full compliance with international law This of course applies to my own country sweden as a step does to any other country Now during the crisis as well as after we must remain vigilant Because when we come out of this crisis, we must ensure that our standards has not shifted In the aftermath of all this we will face a battle of narratives revolving around which form of government countered their outbreak most effectively Indeed All of us have an important task in promoting the advantage of democracy and arguing for democratic human rights-based approach to countering covid-19 We want to think together and consider how we can act together with multilateral actors like minded countries and civil society This pandemic has made it clearer than ever that international cooperation is key to overcoming this crisis I look forward to today's discussion on how covid-19 affects our democratic institution And to hear more of your thoughts on how we can safeguard them moving forward. Thank you very much Thank you very much minister linda A truly interesting Set of remarks we have and and I would like if you allow me to To ask a few questions trying to zero in on the on some of the distinctive features of the response That each country has attempted in the face of covid-19 And here I would like to start with uh minister pain a You know one of the things that sets Australia apart in this panel is that it is a federal country We're decision-making powers when it comes to covid-19 a including the lifting of restrictions is shared between the federal government and sub-national governments How have the federal and state governments come together? In in the midst of this of this crisis How do you deal with the inevitable? Frictions that emerge in the course of that interaction To uh to deal with the pandemic It's a very good question and in the over 30 years that I've spent in In and around politics in australia I have never seen an approach Like the one that has been taken by my prime minister and by the state and territory ministers so To start with it's worth understanding that my prime minister shares Political background with a number of the state and territory chief ministers and premiers but not all So in bringing together A group which has become known as the national cabinet So the prime minister and the premier of every state and the chief minister of each territory In bringing that together. It's a multi-party approach And australia has a robust party democracy split split very clearly Between two major parties and then a series of minor parties. So this is a very unusual endeavor Typically our states and territories run the service delivery entities the schools the hospitals They employ the frontline health workers So best to core the in the best way to coordinate that it was thought we should bring together this national cabinet And it was highly successful and continues to be so Sometimes at the height of the pandemic in the last few months. It has met more than once a week Dedicating hours and hours of leaders time to that process It's turned into a fortnightly meeting and the tempo has has slowed slightly But what is I think really important for this discussion Is that it has been so effective But the prime minister and the national cabinet have determined to continue with this arrangement As a national arrangement beyond the the pandemic Particularly as we take forward work on economic planning on jobs and on recovery And in terms of points of friction, uh as as has been raised One really significant issue is uh the difference that States and territories are making around the easing of restrictions in their in their social isolation requirements their Their social distancing. So the national cabinet agreed on a three-step framework And the plan is agreed But each state and territory will make their own decisions based on their individual circumstances Their local conditions as to timing of its implementation. So there are still internal Different approaches to to resolution and to timing, but the plan is agreed. So It is unique. Uh, and uh, I've been very interested as a long-term observer and practitioner of the Political process in australia to see it play out Thank you so much. It is fascinating. You know how this Enormous crisis is creating opportunities for democratic renewal, you know, and for For political actors to come together in more constructive ways um Now I would like to go to mr. Lind in sweden as we know The swedish approach To deal with the pandemic has attracted a lot of attention And I can tell you that my you know, even my friends in Costa Rica keep asking me about a What sweden is is doing because sweden has not implemented the the same strict A measures and shelter in place orders That other countries have have adopted It this quite clearly at least to me living in sweden one of the interesting things about this is that I have to say that it's a very the the defense that the government Has done this approach is a very articulate one. I mean, this is not something that was concocted out of thin air There's a there's an underlying philosophy behind Can you minister please explain us a little bit about the approach? and the underlying philosophy and Can you tell us a little bit about how this approach? is uh is resulting in in in A so far Yes, thank you. Yes, there is a very high degree of interest in many countries And not the least because the president trump now at least five times has referred to our strategy Sometimes it's good. Sometimes it's bad. Sometimes it's nothing that is absolutely is not So that of course creates A lot of of questions I had to answer New York time this morning, for example on on herd immunity and let me just state We don't have a strategy of herd immunity in in sweden actually We have more or less the same goals as every other country to to have the well-being of our citizens first and and the front to try to flatten the curve to Not get too high Pressure on our healthcare system, which has been also successful. We have all the time have between 20 and 30 percent capacity available on the intensive care places We also try to of course Mitigate the effects on on business and job, but the most important is of course to avoid death and the transmission of the virus and here we can see that It has been very regional In sweden is around the capital and over 90 percent of the infected are more than 70 years old and Middle Age to for for the death is 82 years old So what we have not succeeded in is to keep the virus out of the health the elderly care homes And that is where we have not Been successful But we differ on other countries roughly in two issues. One is that we have not shut down our child care center schools for Younger up to 16 years And now you can see in many countries that there is a discussion if it was actually necessary to closed on schools where they have done So And and we also have no regulation to force citizens to remain in their home But the recommendation the authorities giving to stay home in the slightest of symptoms to keep social distancing and to Um, wash their hand. It's followed to a very very high degree Still several months after more more than 80 percent follow these recommendations very strictly Um, and that is because our system that is different from other countries is since the 16th century where we have very small ministries and very big authorities And the authorities gives recommendations and that is understood that that is not kind of tipped that you could follow If you want to it's you should follow those recommendation because the public trust Between into personal relation between authorities and people and between people And authorities it goes all the ways it's very high and that is due to also international services Not just something that we think we we know for sure that's in in that That way, so I think that There are Not that big difference. Uh, we believe That it's good for the public health that people are outdoors We believe that people should do the training the promenades everything But And we have managed several part of the strategy But we have not managed to keep the transmission out of our, uh, uh, elderly care and since every death is a Strategy this is of course something that we are very sorry about. Thank you Thank you so much minister linda now. I would like to a to ask a minister Kyon-hwa in korea About the elections It is, you know by by all accounts the the Elections in korea came out very well. I mean there were You I would say the word a stunning success a You mentioned in your remarks that a perhaps the The ability of this experience to travel is is limited but Probably there are lessons for all the countries and I'm pretty sure that you've been asked Over the past few few weeks about what those lessons might be and one of the things I have to say that that I a in In analyzing the the korean experience with the with the election. I was particularly impressed with the the prowess Which with which the election management body communicated The options available to citizens and the measures that they were taking a I know from your background that you're an expert in communications So a can you tell us a little bit more about? a The lessons that Might be able to travel to other countries that emerge from the from the elections and and specifically comment on the issue of a Communications as a very important part of this of this successful strategy Well, thank you very much and and very happy to be part of this discussion, but just um In addition to what marisa is saying about this whole of government approach This has also been very successful in our country as well. We are not federal But our cities and and provincial mayors are directly elected the hospital resources the education resources are under their management So it has been extremely important to create a whole of government Approach under the prime minister and we have met every day In fact, uh, since it was it went into action in late february And we continued to meet the prime minister and will no longer chairs it every day perhaps twice a twice a Week, but it is still meeting every day and that Level at the highest level between the central government ministers and the local authorities To identify problems and blockages find solutions make sure that they are implemented has really been What's driven the whole of a government response on the elections? I think the communication bit is not something that Was just for the election. It was it was From the very beginning as I have said the transparency element, which is constantly providing information to the public and This the twice daily briefings once in the morning about this whole of government approach What comes out of that we briefed the public and then on the disease the center the that uh The uh director of our center for disease control does a daily briefing every day at two on on the On the evolving nature of this fire what we know what we don't we still don't know a lot about this virus Which is why uh, you know, even though we are You know looked at upon as having dealt with this Successfully in the first round who knows who's going to be judged as a success And a failure in the longer term when this is all over and we say, okay Let's take a look and see where things are. So we're not complacent We're not out of the woods and we remain very very vigilant the communication part What I would like to say is that it has to be there On a daily basis not just for the elections because you Need to have that trust for the public to Look at what is being prepared? What is being? Communicated in preparations for the election. So this you know the Communication the messaging and the and the transparency element all go in together And we work very hard on the messaging the message that needs to go out to the public Of course, we also preserve that independence of the electoral commission. They are an independent body aside from the any government interference or Or any legislative interference. So while preserving their independence making the Providing all the information that was going into the preparations to the public has been Part of our work. There were never any time That anybody entertained the idea that this might be postponed. I got some questions from foreign reporters You know, is this election going to happen and I I say Absolutely, there's there's you know, this is a constitutional right that we are determined to preserve And I think technically it was important also as you say to provide Many opportunities for voters to vote For the overseas voters For patients in hospital. We made online a mail-in voting Possible for those quarantine. We established a separate procedure where they can come and exercise their right So dispersing the voting public so that we can conduct this without people Coming in a crowded fashion to the to the voting booth I think it technically was an important move That we made and made available to the to the people. So yes, a lot of people turned out for the early voting days two days before the I think Week or two before the actual date. There were two days of early voting. You could walk into any any Pre-identified location in your neighbor and vote. You didn't necessarily have to go back to your district on election day Yes, you needed to go to your election district. So By by dispersing The voter turnout through a series of phased approaches I think was technically a very wise one and just Announcing what voters needed to do on that day as they come to the to the booth This was a constant messaging on a couple of our public Brosting broadcasting channels And I think by that time I think because you know, this was a time when we had now plateaued It was clear that we were going into a downturn By that time the government already had that trust from the public and and in addition to that Being assured that Every step was being taken So that the actual day All precautions were being taken for that actual day needed to in fact the greatest turnouts in in three decades and Knock on wood so far no positive cases that can be traced to any activities during that day so far Well, thank you so very much Thank you so very much minister. Well, we've gone a beyond the time that was allocated and since our Very distinguished guests are extraordinarily busy people a We won't keep them longer though There are so many interesting questions that emerge from this discussion. I mean questions about a What we can learn from this crisis, you know, and I guess the the next panel will Illuminate a will shed light on some of those questions questions about What to do about the economic crisis that is upon us a Questions about the geopolitical implications We could go on all day for the time being I want to a to thank you in a very sincere way for for making the time for this conversation You know, I think We are all in this together. There's a lot of perplexity about how to cope with this and this kind of discussion a Bringing together very practical examples from democracies that have successfully dealt in their own way with the pandemic. I think helps us all So I I want to thank you minister pain minister linde and and and minister Juan Juan for Your generosity and your and your clarity and with this I yield the floor Or I give it back to ambassador Holgren. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you for having us Thank you so much. And I really agree with dr. Casa samora and thank you to the three foreign ministers for this amazing discussion So we will now break a couple of minutes But please stay tuned because we will come back to this expert panel in a in a in a couple of minutes So, thank you so much and look really good. Looking forward to see you soon. Please stay tuned. Thank you So, hello, everybody and welcome back to the second session of democracy in the times of corona My name is jocke palgren. I'm the swedish ambassador to the republic of korea And I am really proud to moderate this session that we are co-hosting with international idea and Where I work, which is the embassy of sweden in soul I think we've just listened to a outright fascinating discussion among the three foreign ministers of australia the republic of korea and sweden moderated by the ably moderated, I would say by the secretary general of international idea And now we're turning to what I said at the beginning a Just eminent panel of professors and experts to drill a little further into the issues that we that were brought up in the in the first session And I urge all of you both the people here at the at the residence the swedish resident here in soul We have a a small but exclusive crowd respecting social distance and all of you who are out there to keep Sending in your questions. We've received quite a few questions And we're actually up to about 500 people following this live now in real time, which is I think quite amazing There is a form that you can use where you can put Write your questions on the on the live stream page So I look forward to hearing more from These real experts that I have here in the in the panel on how democracies and institutions are coping with the covet 19 outbreak both the risks, but maybe also the opportunities Will it actually result in a further retreat of of democracy and democratic Principles or will this be an opportunity to revitalize those democratic institutions and and democratic Principles and what can we all do to influence such such developments? So I'd like to without any further. I do turn to our first speaker Uh professor, sir Cheryl Saunders. You are professor emeritus even And professorial fellow at the university of melbourne You have more than 40 years experience as an academic and a practitioner With special interest and knowledge in comparative constitutional law You've published numerous books and articles in these and related fields and you've also provided expert advice To support constitutional processes across the world Including in me and mar in the philippines in syria among many other countries So I'd like to start with you and ask you what is your Take of the discussion so far comparing the three prominent democracies and the foreign ministers Speech together with the secretary general and and what would you like to add or where would you like to continue? Please professor Saunders Thank you ambassador and it's a great pleasure to be involved in this webinar You know unlike sweden and the republic of korea australia is a federation And this means that democracy works at two levels of government Each of which is accountable to its own parliament and its own group of citizens And so assessing the democratic impact of the pandemic requires both those levels to be taken into account Uh in australia the public powers needed to respond to the pandemic are divided between the levels of government Of for example central powers include quarantine and external borders State or regional powers include hospitals schools Transport and so on and each jurisdiction in australia declared an emergency under legislation of its own enacted in exercise of its own powers Uh and then the governments coordinated their efforts through a new institution rather misleadingly called the national cabinet Comprising the heads of all government Who come from different sides of politics The national cabinet was advised by our body comprising chief health officers from each jurisdiction It reached a common position on key matters But local difference between jurisdictions was accepted on other matters Reflecting different situations around the country. So some states closed internal borders while others didn't And restrictions were relaxed at different times in different places Some tensions emerged between the levels of government But no more than might have been expected in an exercise of this kind and and the the tensions were quite quickly patched up And at the height of the crisis all leaders gave daily press conferences Explaining quite clearly and straightforwardly what was being done The emergency legislation conferred extensive power on ministers Parliaments at both levels of government were truncated Both in respect of the number of members present and in the number and lengths of sittings But some sittings did occur to pass necessary enabling legislation And some use also was made of parliamentary committees for the scrutiny of what the governments were doing The courts continued but without juries and with a lesser case load conducting hearings online So in the end the australian response to the health crisis was highly effective Its success depended significantly on public trust in what governments were doing and despite A relatively stringent lockdown There was significant voluntary compliance Australian institutions were seen to be governing very effectively when an urgent need arose and that's something on which I think we can build in the future But for the future the big issue will be winding back the concentration of executive power Both within jurisdictions and between jurisdictions The response to the pandemic has enabled and encouraged this and it will be an issue to watch very closely But thank you. I hope that was helpful Yeah, thank you so much professor Saunders and this was of course mentioned by foreign minister Payne As well, it's it's quite amazing to to see how this crisis then in a sense Developed the australian democracy or you found new ways of how to say reinterpreting your constitutional arrangements in a way and and and I mean you mentioned that there were some points of friction you you said Different takes on when the restrictions would be eased that etc. And and you also mentioned Rolling this back. I mean if it was highly successful, will it be rolled back or will you maybe change? You know the constitutional arrangements of the country. What what do you predict? Well, I don't think it'll be a matter of changing constitutional arrangements Any federation has intergovernmental arrangements and Australia has always had those But the national cabinet was a new institution really just set up in the exercise of executive power that worked In a rather more Sort of meeting of equals style than had been previously the case with intergovernmental arrangements So there certainly is a proposal that the national cabinet be continued The relevant question I think is whether it worked because of the crisis because the crisis was so serious Whether that culture can be continued on into less critical times is something to watch I very much hope that it can be but there's no guarantees But I guess the key point is that the australians found a way to collaborate across Borders or across constituencies that you hadn't done before in this state of emergency in a way, right? Well, and and for the purposes of this webinar It's not just that they were collaborating across borders, which of course is necessary But that they were collaborating across political divides I mean that national cabinet brought together political leaders from very different sides of politics who in normal times Disagree on many things, but they completely subsumed political backbiting For the period of the health crisis, and I think australians responded to that and appreciated That's quite amazing. Maybe we'll come back to that. So thank you so much professor Saunders for those Initial remarks. I'd like to turn to our next speaker Professor so can Lee you are with us here at the Swedish residence in Seoul I'm I'm grateful that you you made it over here despite. It's actually 34 degrees Outside warm outside and almost the same here the inside of the residence. So so Professor Lee you are a professor of the graduate school of governance at the sun kyun kwan university and you direct the East Asia collaboration center there You have created the Asian democracy a research network in 2015 Where you're focusing on collaborative studies on nation democracy And I think your research interests include global governance democracy and joes citizen participation, etc You have also written numerous numerous articles and books Focusing among other things on populism in nation democracies Transforming global governance in middle power diplomacy Public diplomacy and soft power in east Asia Etc etc So yeah, we got some quite interesting insights from from the foreign minister It's true that you really have been applauded across the world for the the conduct of the of the fight against the virus and and the The elections which seems to have termed in or fallen in a very timely Period so so what are your assessment of of the reasons behind this success? Maybe we heard some from the minister for a minister, but maybe you can develop this a little bit Please Okay, ambassador. So you are asking what's the reason of a successful? election It depends on the what do you mean by success? If you mean just the normal implementation of election Yes, it can be success and also success means from the government perspective and ruling party That's also success because they got the lengthy slightly victory in our general election so Let me answer in this way For the implementation itself As our minister has talked already No Korean has ever doubted Because of this COVID-19 we may delay our election never they can't thought never go to us But if I am If I identify several factors I think first of all our election day was lucky because april 15 Is already by the time we flattened the COVID-19 outbreak From the late march so from the april people feel less threatened So let's say if our election happened in march Because our peak was the early march I'm I'm not sure maybe our boarding rate Could have been decreased it because our boarding rate was 66 percent. Okay It's a good timing because when we just fought the COVID-19 back second factor is the our you know very good the electoral system supporting The mass participation It's already discussed because from the 2014 local election We introduced it the early boarding So usually for the The friday saturday We allowed the early boarding and many salarymen can board So if you look at the compare the boarding rate This time the early election boarding rate was 27 percent That was twice more than the previous general election So you can see that kind of system has made more easier to board And also government was very clever To persuade many voters to come out With all this you know the guideline wearing mask and also Giving the plastic glove and and that kind of also, you know Taking the physical distance all these things were very clever And third if i'm saying well, you know by the time The world has praised it how South Korea has done a very excellent job So there was a kind of Increasing national pride So under this very good atmosphere I think people wanted to Support the the current incumbent government has done a good job And also that has led to the landslide victory of ruling party taking 176 seats out of 300 seats Well, thank you very much. I mean that's that's fascinating and I mean leaving politics aside I mean the fact that you decided to introduce Early voting and staggered voting over a number of days And postal voting that of course means that you can vote With more social distancing Purely purely physically Now one question to you maybe and that is about I mean this has been a holo government and an all out effort This fight against the the virus in korea. I've seen it. I live here But but what about some of these, you know, necessary political reforms, etc That had been in discussion, whether it's you know party laws on campaigning Accountability of of unelected institutions, etc Do you fear that some of that might suffer in the sense that some of that might be delayed as as a result of this With this kind of total focus on the fight against the the virus. What do you think? Um, I guess the our new national parliament is focusing on how to revive the economy and how to protect the people Who are you know damaged by this situation? So they are all talking about the basic The wages and how to support The less pleased with the class. So that would be the big debate However, I don't think This coveted 19 situation will discourage politicians to discuss the political reform law I saw the report from our parliament and they are already The research team has identified several laws to be Discuss and there's coming the session Well, thank you, professor Lee. That sounds encouraging. So I'd like to continue and Move to our next speaker today who is joining us from from sweden. Mr Stefan Lindbergh You are professor of political science at the university of Gothenburg my alma mater by the way You're also director and the founding principal investigator of the vedem institute Which stands for varieties of of democracy You are a valenberg academy fellow and you are also an author of of many articles on issues such as democracy Elections and democratization Accountability women's participation and and voting Behavior and and you also have quite an expense extensive experience as a a consultant and an advisor to international organization And I know that behind you stand a whole whole faculty of some what is it 15 researchers and and so on and So I'd like to ask you professor Lindbergh from rich your rich experience What what would you like to add and where would you like to pick up here on the in the discussion? Maybe partly on the swedish examples is that has kind of been in the focus But also wider because I know you have a truly global outlook as well. So professor Lindbergh, please Well, thank you and and thank you for inviting me to be part of this Important seminar as part of the democracy talks that the ministry of foreign affairs in sweden are are running around the globe and and I think I would like to start with Saying that I think that the discussion that's been had About south korea, australia and sweden three very strong democracies in the world about the potential effects on democracy Domestically is important to be had but I think democracies Like the three here and and others who are were strong and and and should we say consolidated democracies in the world Need to look outward. I think the the ministers Alluded to that at least in some of their comments So in our democracy report that came out in march Which then analyzes trends for democracy in the entire world Up till the end of 2019 shows that not only have we as the world been in a in a in a democratic decline A wave of autocratization For the past 10 years, but 2019 was a particularly bad year It was the worst year in the last decade And now autocracies non democracies if you like Are in a majority in the world for the first time in a very long while And one third of the population in the world live in countries where democracy is in decline where it's already failed EU has its first non democratic member. It's first autocracy among its ranks. It's hungry so 2019 at the end of 2019 and before we had COVID-19 the world was already in in a in a bad situation getting worse when it comes to democracy and the the many restrictions On freedom of movement freedom of assembly in some countries freedom of speech The concentration of executive power not only in Australia where I don't think it's going to be a long-term problem But in many other places it will be Um and COVID-19 is already being used by wannabe dictators Uh in many places in the world to further strengthen their rule and ensure their hold on power um so The the drive for democracy that sweden has decided as a as a priority for foreign policy I think must be a priority for foreign policy And international collaborations for all democracies in the world going forward Professor Lindbergh, thank you so very much and reminding us of that more global maybe duty Even and I of course fully agree of the of the importance of of of that still if I Just may I I think as you rightly highlighted the three democracies discussed today have obviously suffered under under this Under this the management of the crisis We've had to take extraordinary measures and I think the eyes will be on on our on on the three countries How did these prominent and strong democracies actually Fair and I think maybe some of the autocracies are also maybe scrutinizing extra and And I mean even more than than otherwise and and if I just may venture to ask One question which I I know has come up And that is you know in in sweden the the role of the expert has risen to an unprecedented prominence You know with the with the public health official the state Epidemiologist etc doing the daily press briefings whereas in many other countries It's maybe the president or the prime minister or a minister of public health Etc So so I'm we will come back to the global issues But if I may just ask your view do you think that that in any way Could be seen as a as a as a challenge in terms of accountability when we're talking about You know a crisis which is much wider than than public health etc if it's seen from the outside Not necessarily so as I think foreign minister linda said It builds on a very long tradition several hundred years tradition in sweden on how to organize the relationship between The government and its ministries and the state authorities. So the state authorities have much more independence in sweden So the way it works in sweden is the way it's supposed to work And and it's it's it's a slightly different sort of constitutional setup from from most other countries But we We we have constitutional differences We have a federal state here among us that work very different from a unitary state the presidential and parliamentary have to deal with situations like this within the confines of of their own configurations so to speak the the In the end the government is responsible in sweden Just like in any country the other country Then In in in our in our model so to speak Then in situations like this the state authorities The relevant state authorities have a very important and a sort of executive role in many ways That goes beyond what what other people are or people from other countries are perhaps used to but it but it's it's It has not been and it's I don't see it as a as a problem of democratic accountability In in in any serious way Well, that's a really useful clarification. I I as a swede I I know but I think for the benefit of the audience that's Quite interesting. So let me turn to our final Speaker in the in the in the panel miss lena rica latamang You are the director of the asian the pacific regional program at the international idea You joined idea in 2002 and you've been working in india vietnam me and mar among any countries among many countries and You've been teaching at the university or university of tamper in finland And you've also published as the other distinguished panelists about democracy At the global level on women's political participation on inclusive democratic processes And you are also the former secretary general of finland's advisory board for relations with the developing countries And you're a member and a former share of the network institute for global democracy now Lena as a person following this whole asia and and the pacific region from From idea and having listened to both the foreign ministers and the the your colleagues and experts share What what would you like to highlight from this discussion? Please? Yeah, thank you ambassador. It's been really fascinating to listen to all speakers so far As a disclaimer, I should maybe mentioned i'm based in cambera in australia where i have spent these past few months and originally i come from finland I have three quick observations to make and number one In many ways this pandemic has been a an x-ray exposing strengths and weaknesses of institutions and societies And the three results of these three countries have been largely positive World three are high performing democracy With many strengths to draw from also in times of corona Even though There are also issues to watch out for Speakers before me discussed the role of institutions some innovations successful elections So I call directly to aspects that we may need to worry about Before the pandemic Many democracy indicators as stuff and already mentioned Including the medium and also our global state of democracy in diocese owned about trend of democratic declines of the last five seven years And also in a status democracy In australia We can detect slight decline on media identity and free political parties since 2012 In sweden social group equality access to justice have been declining since 2012 Whereas korea Has made steady progress on all major aspects over the last five years However The existing levels of free political parties Gender equality independence of judiciary remain behind of any other high performing democracies My second point. I believe This pandemic is only going to accelerate ongoing global trends in good and in bad And we are already seeing in very painful way how this pandemic is revealing deep-rooted inequalities in many societies And we also know that after other pandemics Both stars and zika inequalities increased And other risks are enormous economic unrest increased surveillance Increased in narrow nationalism and and so on And my third point Is that while this pandemic may well have been an x-ray of democratic institutions It's also been a kind of a russia test, you know, the psychological ink test Many of us gone through when applying for jobs You kind of see what you want to see or what you have always seen. We have all read about the democratic dystopias or fantasies And while none of those may Not realize as such. I believe we are at the crossroads And at the same time including a great opportunity at hand to learn from from this crisis And some of those learnings are very practical and relate to working institutions organizing directions and so on and some are probably more systemic Related to very social contract We have had as societies and those would require more deliberations and reflections Thank you Thank you. Thank you so much I mean it what you say some good forces are reinforced and some good trends or some bad trends are also reinforced Could you maybe just expand a little bit on your last point there about the concrete institutional learnings? I mean, maybe there are easy and you know good takeaways that You as idea, I mean you of course have the benefit that you're You know by profession comparing many countries or all countries essentially at the at the same time So what what are the kind of good practices or good examples you'd like to highlight if you would Yeah, thank you. I think first of all, I think I should mention I should say that I think Learnings from previous crises were in fact applied Australia had the preceding boss fire emergency So a kind of crisis awareness by the leadership was there and I think that paved the way to many good decisions and similarly Korea was applying lessons learned from the SARS epidemic and understanding early on the importance of shift action and so on But in terms of practical democracy related learning, I think we have seen a lot of innovations parliaments discovered They there are alternative ways of working including remote voting remote committee work I'm confident that many of the special voting arrangements including absentee voting, early voting, postal voting, e-voting, we'll all get more prominence after this after this crisis Both minister Payne, professor Saunders mentioned the example of national confidence in coordinating decision making in the federal setup And we have witnessed the comeback of experts in Based and the kind of evidence-based Decision making and I hope that that practice is here to stay I think courts need to think through how to ensure access to justice even even at times of lockdown And many nations I believe are now examining some of the constitutional and legal frameworks Kind of see if whether those can truly pass the sort of stress test or or if amendments are needed I think in many ways it is you're looking at sort of act-to-basics strategies and Acknowledging that institutions matter Well, thanks a lot and I if I'm not Wrong, you're actually planning to to assemble some of the conclusions from this seminar Today and you've already got a good list there in in your writings It was actually by the way a an idea brief on the elections here in in in korea Which you know prompted this whole seminar from the very beginning So I can only recommend reading of your your papers now. I'd like to In a moment we will turn You know open up to the to the audience and and also to the online followers here, but I'd like to drill into to one question it was touched only slightly before and and this is the issues where the Necessities of fighting the pandemic and the quite intrusive sometimes legislation on rules or restrictions are colliding with issues of individual privacy or Or integrity and and for that matter the right of assembly and we we actually spoke before this seminar about the The Black Lives Matter Demonstration that has happened in many countries over the last weekend So I'd like to hear just yet very quickly from each of you for in the in the panel And I'll start with Professor Saunders and continue with Professor Lee and then Professor Lindbergh and then Mr Erika Lattamang So you can get your your snapshot thoughts about that Tension and how to deal with it. So Professor Saunders, what do you think about that? How should we? Yes, well, you're you're quite right, of course. There is a tension between Protecting people's health in these circumstances and rights of all kinds so rights to freedom of movement, for example in the Australian Context and in Australia that particular trade-off was accepted. I think without too much Quibble because people put such a deal of faith in the way the system was was handling the crisis And but as we said earlier today The real Conflict came just quite recently during the Black Lives Matter Demonstrations that took place right across Australia capital cities regional cities hundreds of thousands of people marching I mean the actual Size of gatherings varies a bit between states around Australia But on no view did they do they encompass a hundred thousand people In the CBD and so there was a real question Not only for people about whether they would go out in March and clearly in a way that was contrary to the health requirements, but A real question for governments, you know, how far hard would they clamp down on this? Would they let it go ahead and if they did would that complicate the Health protections going forward So I think the Australian experience on that deserves some Some further study to see how democratic governments reacted to that by and large. I think it wasn't too bad Well, thank you. I mean if it happens once and during a brief period of time I I guess you can find a way But if this is going to be there for the long haul and it actually challenges, right? So that might Professor Lee I mean in in in Korea you haven't had such big demonstrations, but there's been this discussion about Individuals integrity with you know camera surveillance cameras and mobile phone mapping of people's You know movements, etc. So what's your take on this? Or we have a problem with the microphone now. It's better. So the boys. Yes start again. Yeah I guess in this fighting against cobit 19 every country is struggling with this dilemma between the protection of individual privacy and also some in a government gathering of information to Share the information with the other public So that aspect is all shared our case is a little bit some people worry because We had the mars after 2003 SARS and then in 2015 we have mirrors and after experiencing mirrors our government Concealedated this center so they can all collect the data Not just the GPS and also a credit card and all this people's movement data So therefore Yes, it can be very efficient effective, but at the same time it can infiltrate it into a privacy space And of course after this one became an issue In the the contact tracing map the government Erases the information of tracing after 14 days So there is a kind of that kind of respond to this worry And also during this fight of this cobit 19 We had a kind of minority issues like In taegu the epicenter of korea's cobit 19 The majority of the infected cases were belonging to this exclusive christian girl called the shin chan ji So there is a very much public The criticism against against this sect and also After the the may outbreak in itaewon You know, there is also a very Antagonistic feelings revealed against the gay minority in korea. So all these issues You know Reminded the korean public, you know, we have to be very careful about the their Religious right even their minority and also the this sexual minority as well. No, no, I agree with you especially the issues of scapegoating or I mean stigmatizing Minorities, I I really see that professor linberg. I mean this brings us to the global issues immediately because this is A key issue, which I guess is a huge challenge in in in every country What what does your research tell us about these tensions and how that is dealt with In different democracies and not so democratic countries, maybe Yeah The tension between civil liberties and fundamental democratic and human rights in fact, uh, and strategies to fight A pandemic is obviously at the heart here and the key principle That's internationally agreed is that it has to be proportional There's been very little discussion about that proportionality I would say in in in even in most democracies And that worries me a lot people got afraid That fear was whipped out by governments themselves and by the media and then suddenly people across the world almost sort of accepted extreme restrictions On fundamental human rights without question questioning it and without questioning the Proportionality and and that worries me for the future. What about the next crisis and what? Governments will use what type of situation claim it's a crisis and further derail human rights and democratic rights And use further surveillance mechanisms to limit our freedoms and and to my south korean of Colleague and friend here. I would say well, they said they erased it. How do you know? All right, we will never know if the governments Actually erase those traces and the tech companies they use that they work with That typically preserve the right to sell that kind of information. So this is I I'm very worried that This is setting a precedent that can be used to derail democratic rights and human rights in the future Well, that brought us to a much bigger issue. I mean you said you talked about proportionality But essentially we're into to what extent democracy as such is is backsliding as a result of a an incremental increase in This type of measures, but I guess it's also up to to each country and a political tradition How you deal with that and the level of acceptance? Ms. Riccala, Taman, what what what do you make of this? I mean you as you watch the region here And and when you see this tension being handled in different ways Privacy against necessary and legitimate actions by by governments. Do you do you think it's a long-term threat to democracy? um Yes, I do believe it is it is it's the real risk as this increased survival surveillance relates to intrusion of privacy Relays to question of what type of data and how much of private information we want to submit out there Maybe downloading the covet 19 tracking app. It is a trade-off between public health and our private information The question is what is the what is the acceptable trade-off? It seems yes both in korea and in australia so far This app has been received Well received and of course the underlying worry is Whether the data is used towards our best interest and whether we know for sure That is the case um, I think in democracy what justification for obtaining Any data should always be there. There needs to be justification um demonstrating security justification for accountability But decision-making is robust and that the the whole system is open to some sort of independent Review, but it's also true. Of course that societies may value Privacy somewhat differently. It is it is also contextual, but I think I do agree with With stuff and that this is something we really need to keep a close eye on As as we move forward and the next crisis to come along These sort of mechanisms to easily get normalized all of a sudden it is it is perfectly normal to submit all this data and all this information, which just a couple of Years a month ago was was not something that we were ready to to do Oh, it's quite amazing how the acceptance and acceptance for some some measures has really, you know changed so quickly and so dramatically Uh, thank you for your comments. I we have about uh, a bit less than 20 minutes To go so I'd really like to to open up to the both to the our live audience here at the at the residence And then I know that the questions are ticking in on online So, uh, is there anyone here at the at the residence who would like to put a question? So please and why don't you just also introduce yourself and And put your question and then we'll see if you know who to direct these two in the panel. Just say otherwise i'll ask My name is bj kim. I teach at the korea development institute school of public policy Uh, I was very glad to see overall discussion towards the later part going into the issues of Human rights and privacy because fundamentally speaking. I think what we are trying to discuss here is liberal democracy Many of our speakers have spoken that democracy has been in decline But if you be precise about it, that's not exactly true If we come if we define democracy as a simple majoritarian rule In fact democracy is doing great Because simple majoritarian rule could lead our democracies to populism And populism is doing great in so many different countries around the world. So fundamentally speaking It's not the simple majoritarian rule that we are talking about here rather what we are talking about is the combination of two very important values that is uh, liberalism as a respect for human rights of the individuals and individual freedom On one hand and then democracy as a collective choice all together So in that regard, I think korea has been doing great on the second part of it ever since the end of 1980s And we have achieved considerable progress Considerable progress on the first part the the the liberalism as well In fact, in my own belief korea has been doing really good job within the region of age I think within the age and region korea may be a leader in terms of producing progress in strengthening Liberalism, but still I think we have far, you know, a long way to go In comparison with our perhaps friends in europe or elsewhere When I saw different aspects of Coronavirus crisis here in korea as professor lee mentioned in the cases of religious minority case And also lgbt community relating to the part of town here called itaewon here. I was nervous Because I was seeing korean success being produced up to that point as a part of aspect of collective action the community acting together to deal with the crisis which is Which is something that korea is well known for very good at but when we saw the issues of minorities religious minority And also lgbt community. I was quite nervous. I don't think we actually went off the clip I think we stopped at the right point and we didn't go too far So indeed, I think we succeeded in managing those very Delicate points. So I was happy to see that but however at the end of may Just one week left Before actual implementation Ministry of justice announced Their decision to require All foreigners here residents and immigrants Non-citizens foreigners who have lived here for 30 40 years To receive reentry permit when they leave this country And this was the ministry of justice not ministry of health ministry of justice That was going to make a decision about whether this particular person who spent several decades in this country could come back To their families or not And I was abhorred by this decision And I was angered with my Foreign friends here as well who spent four or five decades here in this country who love this country all together And so when when I saw that aspect I saw the vulnerability The fragility Of this nation in terms of in its efforts to respect human rights individual freedom And so on within the global scale even though we have come a long way so far But good news is to conclude my remark So I think there was one case where we realized that korea has a long way to go on that front But good news is that since then the implementation date was june 1st But since then in the face of much criticism, I think ministry of justice has taken its steps back Creating a lot of different kind of exceptions and so on so I think the that decision has become almost Meaningless by now, which is a good thing. So that was a positive wrap up I guess I like to share about the story That highlighted the fact that this country still has a long way to go on the liberalism side of this important value liberal democracy Well, I guess the capacity and the capability to change decision is a is Is something that is typical for for democracies I don't know if there is someone in the panel who would like to comment on this Professor lee, you know the the korean Circumstances may be most in detail or I don't know about professor saunders or professor linberg would Would like to say something about this particular example or what it represents Who would like? Yeah, professor lee, please If I may I think Compared to the national citizens In this the korean 19 situation One of the most vulnerable people are migrant workers And the temporary state foreign nationals and also illegal workers Because they are not documented So They are sort of in limbo Okay, so In that aspect South korea is no exception In Failing and in taking good care of these migrant workers and the Non-document the foreign workers here Maybe we should move on unless anyone else in the panel would like to comment on that Do we have another question? Yeah, please sir And please introduce yourself as well All right Hello, my name is jason lee. I'm Professor and drama the chair at korea university and first of all, thank you very much for your very insightful comments And today we are talking about democracy in the times of corona, but actually we also We should be ready for the democracy in the aftermath of corona And during past few weeks and few months We have seen a quite a universal phenomena Of the return of big state with a very strong quarantine control and actually the the huge temptation for the The ultimate unlimited budget spending the physical spending So the the government is getting bigger and at the same time The protectionism nationalism are growing and that is actually feeding the populist and The extreme side actually the both extreme side. So the nowadays the democracy is Facing a big challenge in the in times of corona then Then we have we may have two choices The one is in the aftermath of corona one option is going back to pre-corona era and be well and and have to emphasize the liberalism and and Personal individual freedom just as before or Do we have to be ready for a new types Of democracy and do we have to accept a new reality? And we may not be able to go back to the other pre-corona years. So What would be the likely the past we would take and I am I am raising This question to any of the panels. I think that's a fascinating question Is the is democrat democracy going to be fatally fatally wounded by the corona crisis or or not Professor Lindbergh seems eager to to take on that one. So why don't you start? Yeah, I think it's an important point to look forward and We then know that already before corona We had a wave a cost of world that's associated with this ox lighting of democracy that different forms of should I say ugly nationalism And and polarization of society whether it's sort of a muslim nationalist in turkey or a hinder nationalist in india or christian Strange kind of nationalist behind trump or bolsternaro in brazil And so on and of course in hongary as well and that has been Emphasizing a very reactionary view on society and leading to us Yeah an increase in polarization a toxic polarization of societies and I think the corona pandemic has The potential also long term to feed into this and further strengthening it. So that's another aspect I am grateful my colleague from korea university brought it up. That's another aspect We need to keep track of and counteract as democracies in the world Thank you professor linberg. I think that miss ricula tamang wanted to come in on that one as well. So please Yeah, no, thank you for thank you for that question And I think in the post corona time what is definitely needed and already should start now Are the are the public debate? The public scrutiny, but also debate and discussions at all levels of society People will remember What is the story that we are going to tell about this time? Is it the war to be won? Was it the sickness to recover from? Is this even a moment of of some great transformation as the head of imf for people has has suggested Will people remember that they were looked after or left alone? Uh, where people treated equally or where some people more privileged than than others And I think those are going to be some of the critical questions to be Post corona debate and we certainly seen examples of where the social contract Is being broken. We have seen the plight of migrant workers walking thousands of kilometers in many south asian countries Back to the villages and we have witnessed and perhaps we participated some of the black lives matter Demonstrations recognizing that the social contract There was broken as well that we are suffering from systemic racism in in many of our In many of our societies Um, surprisingly on what it comes to populism and populist leaders, you know in many places the kind of airtime of the populist leaders seem to be They haven't been able to to get that I just noticed that at least in sweden the it is the social democratic party had the highest ever support in the polls Same same happened in finland and these were both our countries where the sort of right wing populist leaders Have been lurking in the sidelines. So much depends For sure how this how the post corona time is going to be managed How the economic recovery is to be managed? And what what is the what is the the the kind of a feeling that many citizens will Will have after the after the pandemic? Thank you so much for that reply. We still have some five ten minutes to go and I really would like to honor my my Promise from the beginning and that is to turn to all of those All of you who are following us online and as I said, we've received quite a few questions So here's one which I think is quite pertinent. It comes from indonesia Where the simple question is during a pandemic. How is it possible to go ahead with elections? Isn't it better to let the Government focus on combating corona combating corona rather than to risk an increase spread by the virus So what is the panel's advice to this? Who would like to start? I like to start Mr. Professor Mayberg I think it's contextual Yes It it has to be judged from country to country. So in in south korea We saw a very successful Conduct of elections Elections were postponed in poland I think for good reasons Going ahead with the elections would have been a mistake there It depends on where you are in the pandemic cycle. It depends on what Technologies you can offer in a safe way to to guarantee the integrity of the vote It's clear that Canceling or postponing elections already have been used to further sort of insulate incumbents from challengers but Elections should not go ahead in any kind of circumstances. So I don't think there's one Answer that fits every situation Thank you professor linberg anyone else who would like to Professor Lee, please I guess it depends on country. I agree The indonesia is a huge country divided by so many islands So even under the new covid-19 situation it took so many days weeks to collect and to Implement election and and to collect the votes. So it's quite understandable However, if you are properly Guide yourself maybe with the mask and or kinds of things if it's technological innovation can be done that are fascinating So with all due efforts, I think it's much better not to postpone election and for the previous question by my fellow Professor Lee, I guess we have to distinguish between populism and also the post covid-19 economy recovery All responsible countries are preparing right to To pour the money From their concern was helping people out of work Now they are moving to pouring money to create demand To normalize the economy. So I don't think it's a populism So It depends on how much the government can absorb right if it's Italy Italy's debt is already so huge right but South korea We are like a low 40s our politicians and public opinions are divided over these issues Because we have been running very our finance in a conservative way So people worry about rapid speed of In increasing our debt ratio But at the same time there must be a kind of wise cap We can expand to create the demand at the same time We have to very careful to spend the money allocate the money to the necessary area to Really the people who Need that kind of assistance rather than just you know giving all the money to everyone. Yeah Thank you so much. Professor Lee. I have another question. This one is from Iran How can we face authoritarian regimes that hide the truth about covid-19 and its impact? Under democratic systems. It's easy to follow up. But in certain countries without democracy People suffer from the lack of transparency. How should we respond to them? So who would like to take on that one? Yeah, so well Professor Limberg Yeah, there's nobody else says anything. Uh I mean, this is a general problem with authoritarian regimes Uh, they can hide and cheat with numbers much more than democracies can although it's not impossible for democracies to do And this regards covid-19 and it regards gdp gdp per capita growth. I mean everything So The the the I guess the only thing democracies in the world can do is is keep on pounding them as much as you can in terms of being honest and and Uh And Behave better, but I'm not sure that's going to make much of a difference Thank you. Professor Limberg. I saw that miss circular telang. What did you respond to this as well, please? Yeah, simply to add what uh, what stuff and said, uh As with any any other any authoritarian regimes you can try find the ways to support Uh media inside the country you can try to support regional actors regional media to try to investigate you can support low national civil society actors uh academia independent researchers in in trying to produce a bit more Objective uh information and uh get that information uh out there Otherwise it is the what you would try to do otherwise either through calling out such bad practices or Through through the kind of different strategies of nudging trying to find the entry points wherever you can Uh, maybe sometimes through regional Corporation collaboration you make to some headways but uh, and I think the the support to media organizations regional media academia To support the the counterparts in those countries would be perhaps the one possible way To to get more information out Thank you so much time is yeah, professor Saunders, please Yeah, I was just going to add to that. I don't disagree with anything that has been said, but um I mean the the odd thing about this pandemic is it's the one thing that an authoritarian government can't cover up Terribly well, I mean they can cover up the numbers, but the fact that there is a big problem Uh is evidence to everybody and ought to be Uh a reality that puts some pressure Uh on the regime because as people sort of struggle to get through life Thank you so much. I I think we're Already a little bit in the over time, so I'll I'll I'll take uh just the last question And I would like to take this one because I think it provides a little bit of a positive spin It's a question that we've received from sweden So in what way can we take advantage of the pandemic to strengthen the democracy in the world? So I'd like to have some quick responses from each of the panelists Your best tips for strengthening democracy in the midst of this pandemic, so Professor Saunders, are you ready to start? Yes, I am uh professor Lindbergh said a couple of questions ago that uh He was sketching the trajectory of democracy in the world and saying that Countries like the ones we're talking about here are not really the major problem that there is Backsliding uh in a very serious way elsewhere Of course, that's true The countries that pride themselves on being democratic role models actually should be democratic role models and the reality is as he was saying They have been sliding too So I think that uh As of us who are in that fairly fortunate position should seize the moment of the pandemic not just slide into the future but use it Not just to wind back the covet 19 measures But to think very hard about the other ways in which our democracy was not performing And to use the chance where we have us of institutions having regained public trust To build on that to build what lina described as a As a new social contract and I think we need to do that very deliberately not just to let it all New social contract from professor saunders. So professor lee. What's your what's your tip? I guess we can get some Good point from the coveted 19 upon democracy is that This pandemic I guess every pandemic puts The politically and economically weak populations Into a very very difficult situation. They are most vulnerable people, right and through that awareness I think we can be again look at the situation like in the usa With this pandemic hitting The the african america It's not just the police brutality. There is uh, you know, as you know The african america takes about only 14 percent of american population But they are taking 40 percent of you know, people who are dead of coveted 19 So that the kindle racial issue again And then the the world is supporting this black lives matter protest movement Likewise in korea too after this itaewan the the gay community The the infection cases I think there are more voices from the the minority groups to demand the the right of this The minority groups. So I think there are chance. We are you know become more conscious about the the very shady issues The society hasn't talked in public. So we can make this into you know more positive way That's great. If it ends up Support, you know creating more giving more support or for for the victimized groups. Professor Limburg. What's your tip? Yes, so let me pick it up from there. Um, first, let me apologize I'm going to give you my 30 seconds take on this and then I have to leave this because I'm I have to give a talk in another webinar So we are wrapping up very soon Yeah, so, um I think 2019 was not only Uh, back the year of backsliding for democracy, but it was also the year of protest 44 percent of countries in the world had pro-democratic protests in 2019 It wasn't only Hong Kong and Sudan. It was very widespread And I think the hope is that that pro-democratic wave of pro-democratic mobilization bounces back once the Worst phase of the pandemic is over That's hope for that. Perfect. And on that, let me say sure see you Let's continue the discussion. Mr. Rika. That's long. What's your Come on. What's your what's your tip or what's your recommendation? Well, my tip is uh, bring back the experts to support decision-making political decision-making and uh, not only epidemiologists, but also sociologists Psychologists educators and I have to say democracy experts Many of us want to make sure democracies come out of this crisis stronger not weaker And there is much the democracy experts and organizations and we can advise leaders about And at the same time, obviously It is the political leaders who need to bear the responsibility and The ones who have the accountability Thank you. Thank you so much and actually you all disappeared here on on the screen when Professor Lindberg Left the meeting which means that it's time to to wrap up and and time really did fly I think we had a fascinating discussion this afternoon and there's this expert panel I really like to to thank you for your contribution. I think contributions. I think It was both broad and and very rich. We learned about challenges and they are indeed many but But there are there is also hope as as we saw at at the end here and and You know the conversation continues and But before we we wrap up I'd really also like apart from you the foreign ministers the secretary general of idea and you panel panelists here I'd really like to thank everybody who made this this event possible and I'm thinking of the the great Contacts that we have had with the foreign ministries in in Canberra in Seoul and in Stockholm to make this to make this possible the great collaboration with international idea Who is our co-host and co-sponsor and our best friends in in making this This all all all possible and and last but not least I'd really like to thank the colleagues here at the embassy in in Seoul and the whole production team That made it made this possible. It's been led very very Competently by miss victoria rodin sanström and I really I really thank you all for for making this possible Thank you so much and with this I think we should Wrap up and close this meeting. Bye. Bye