We're going to talk about a guy named Jalen Fleer. Greg Runch tells us about the videos we're going to watch. Yes, Jalen Fleer worked for the county sheriff's jail and court services and worked specifically in the San Diego jail. He played guilty to 20 felony and misdemeanor charges for some inappropriate behavior with underage girls. This interview is not graphic specifically, so don't worry about that. The acts took place between March and April of 2020 and he was sentenced to 12 years in prison with no probation. So, as far as like the pictures, so this photo came up in connection with some allegations about you communicating with a younger female on Snapchat. Okay. Have you ever communicated with any females that, we have already recognized that yes, you have with your recruit from the past. Is there anyone else you've communicate with on Snapchat? I mean, back then, no, just close friends and coworkers and stuff like that. All right, Chase, what do you got? Right here in this clip, we talk about it all the time. There's a wonderful example of shifting from abdominal breathing, which is a relaxed human to chest breathing. And you can watch it happen in the clip with the chest rises and falls instead of the abdomen. So that's a high stress indicator. And during this part, is there anybody else that you communicated with on Snapchat? There's lip licking, lip retraction, which communicates either a need for reassurance or withheld opinions. So we're seeing similar behavior there.  I mean, back then, coworkers and stuff like that. This is a subconscious desire to deny everything. He says no, but the answer isn't no. So he's communicated with lots of people, but still accidentally lets this denial come out, which is indicative of guilt, in my opinion. This whole thing is our opinion. His denial isn't about who, it's about context. Listen again. I mean, back then, close friends and coworkers and stuff like that. It's not a denial about who, just context. Close friends, coworkers, and stuff like that. The word stuff here is about the behavior and context, not people. That's very important here moving forward because we're starting to see him lay out what I like to call a denial strategy, which typically reveals itself. And we'll see more of that in a second. Scott, what do you have? All right, well, this guy does a great job of staying calm because his demeanor doesn't change much at all throughout the whole thing, except toward the end, just a little bit. There are spots where he keeps it together, but there are spots where it leaks. Now, this is gonna look fairly boring to most people who don't know what to look for.  So you go, oh, and these are the things you'll look for from now on. Now, I want you to think about that as we go through this. And one thing I want you to pay attention to are his folded arms. So let's pay attention to where they start and where they end. And what we're seeing, are we seeing his hands or are we not seeing his hands? We're not seeing his hands. So as we go through this, pay attention to that because we're gonna talk about that later on. At first we see a quick lip compression. That's an adapter that he's using. We'll see that over and over as well. And this indicates stress. When we get upset or stress starts to build, we try to get rid of that by using these past spying behaviors. And in his case, that thing where he goes, that's one of his. So let's pay attention to that as well. Not a whole lot of fidgeting at first, but he was seeing him swaying back and forth in that chair a little bit. Having a chair like that is perfect for this kind of situation because when a person gets nervous, they try to relax a little bit. They'll swing around back and forth a little bit. If you can get a chair on wheels, if you can get the person you're talking to into a chair on wheels, when you're talking to him that goes back and forth like that, man, it's hard to beat. You can hardly beat that. His blink rate's fairly low because his brain wants to keep an eye on what's going on with the person asking the questions with the interviewer.  And he knows what it is he's done and he wants to find out how much information they have. He doesn't know how much they have, but as we go along, it's gonna dawn on him how much they actually have. His breathing rate's a little bit high. And like Chase was saying, you can see that change from the stomach area on up into the chest. And you can see it get a little bit faster as he goes through there. That shallow breathing is what gives him a little bit of not a head buzz, but it adds to the nervousness as you go through it. Definitely doesn't help calm you down. And what we're seeing here is the guy who's on alert. Greg, what do you got? Yeah, I think we're gonna cover a lot of the same things. So I'll try to keep it abbreviated. However, this is gonna be a great example of baseline. I always say the organism does what made the organism successful. He's a jail guard, working in jail. You're pretty stoic when you work around prisoners. It's a good attribute to have Chase. You've done the same as I have. You don't wanna believe information to them. And he was a pitcher. Both of those businesses need to have stoic expression and not bleed a lot of information. So he does a good job in the beginning. The other thing I want you to watch here, we talk about eye accessing and I always tell you eye accessing is powerful. This is a great one because he is so locked down. He guards those hands. He's got everything stacked and locked together. I'll talk about that in the next one. But we're gonna watch this eye accessing change because when they ask him who he talked to and his eyes go over here to his right, he's not using where he's going to go for baseline when they ask him questions where he's recalling and they get it in reverse order. It doesn't matter which order you get it in. They ask him questions about people he should be able to answer the question. And he goes to a right eye visual accessing and later when they ask him about facts that they know and they're covering, he goes to his left consistently to talk to him about his house and that. So we'll pay attention to this eye movement but it goes to eye lock. When she brings these pictures out, I don't know what pictures she had. Those eye locks look at him. He locks on the threat immediately.  I'll talk about all three of those, all four of those. And as she addresses the pictures and said they came from a younger female on Snapchat his eyes narrow, his blink rate increases just rapidly for a short period of time it doesn't stay that way just about the threat. His breathing increases, chase your point, rises into his chest. All that is stress preparing for a fight or to run. Whether he plans to run or fight doesn't matter his body is taking over. And that's what's happening that amygdala has identified the threat and is now creating an opportunity for him to get away. Watch how his neck becomes rigid. That's a good indicator in humans. All those muscles are tightening up to protect all of those arteries and sinews and all of those things. And then finally, when she says have you ever a couple of things after this and not maybe finally have you ever, we already recognized you have that is an artful term with an interrogator to shoot across the bowel to put him on notice and then lead him to admission and start to add some texture to it. You see him swiveling the chair at that. He does mouth grooming and so he's trapped you can start to see it. What they're doing right here is getting a really good baseline for a start. That's what I got. Mark, how about you? So as is often the case, I must have been living in a cave in the Sahara when this was all going on because I've never seen this guy before. You've maybe seen this guy before. Some of us here may have may not. We don't talk about these cases beforehand. We don't compare notes after it. I don't know who I'm watching and how this case ends up. But strangely enough, I have all the same points here as have been mentioned there. So something's going on that for separate people who have an understanding of these indicators are arriving at some of the same points. I'm already suggesting he's under massive stress and pressure more than I would expect if he had a level of innocence in whatever might be going on. And at this particular moment, I suspect what might have happened. But I don't know exactly, but he's under stress and pressure. Now, I love that the breathing has been mentioned. I love that Scott has talked about the crossing of the arms because what I want you to notice is if you watch his crossed arm, you'll be able to see it moving up and down with his chest breathing. So you can look at the breathing rate by watching his arm going up and down. My guess is one of the reasons he's crossed his arms is he wants to kind of button this one down. He doesn't want to give too much away. He wants to suppress what he knows his body may well do, but he's not gonna be able to because his breathing is so high, so big and so rapid that we can already see the stress and pressure as his arm moves there. We saw it in Amber Heard as well with her jewelry moving at the top of her chest there. Another way to read people's breathing rate. So as usual, watch his arm breathe along with that and get a sense of how you start to feel. It's gonna be very similar to how he's feeling because breath and levels of oxygen and carbon dioxide tend to have the same effect on our endocrine system and the neurochemicals that get launched into the brain and the feelings that come with that. So breathe along, how you're feeling, stress, pressure, maybe even a little bit of panic already. That's maybe how he's feeling. So as far as like the picture, so this photo came up in connection with some allegations about you communicating with a younger female on Snapchat. Okay. Have you ever communicated with any females that, we've already recognized that yes, you have with your recruit from the past. Is there anyone else you've communicated with on Snapchat? I mean, back then, no, just close friends and coworkers and stuff like that. All right. So of course we've spoken to obviously the other parties involved and kind of gotten some of the information. And so the reason why this particular photo was kind of brought up is because this photo was sent to this female, which is why I wonder if this photo would be in anyone else's hands.  So this photo was sent within the last three weeks. Have you sent this photo? No, definitely not. Not to anyone within the last three weeks. Okay. And you've only shared it with a select few people. Yeah, it was a long time ago, so. Okay. So I want to make sure to get all the people you have shared with just to make sure they wouldn't try to send it. Yeah, no, I mean, I know there's like screenshots and stuff, I don't remember that one being screenshot. It was Snapchat, so. Yeah, because Snapchat lets you know when you're screenshotting. Yeah, it'll tell you, so that was a long time ago. So I don't know. Okay. So you don't know who I might be able to connect with this photo as far as I know. Not one? No, that was a long time ago. You said you've only shared it a couple times? Yeah, I mean, that just is a basic photo. I want to save that one or anything like that. Okay. So it was either your wife or whoever the other person you might have shared it with that might have shared the photo again? My question is is. I don't know if my wife would have done that. Yeah. We've been together, I guess after so long. Well, so you dated this girl for three years and when you were 20, that's 23.  Yeah, it was about a month apart from my ex. The other one. So you've been with her for three years? Yeah, so you like the long term relationships? I've always been in the long term. Three to three, all right. All right, Greg, what do you got? Yeah, so we're gonna see stress starting to build in him. And you could say, if you just watch this and don't know what we're talking about, you wouldn't even notice the stress. A lot of people would go, yeah, I know he looks pretty relaxed, but he doesn't. His hands have now, I always talk about people trapping their hands don't feel as threatened. Those hands come out so they can use them. That's a good indicator they're being threatened. We're gonna watch him use those hands to illustrate what he's thinking over time. But for now, he doesn't use his hands. What we see in the first 10 seconds, the very first 10 seconds, there's stress mouth wetting, some lip compression, and then he swivels in his chair. And you see concern run through his brow as these muscles all gather up here.  And he even does a thing here that's even more powerful. He goes to internal focus.  His eyes are just disengaged and staring through the table. And then his blink rate goes up and he makes hard eye contact. Scott and I call that hard eye contact a romance where they're trying to figure out what you know or don't know. And then he starts to throw filler words out that make no sense. I mean, there's just some words in there where he's finding space and he swallows his words or what you would call fading facts when he says it wasn't me. He avoids the question with that was a long time ago and we're gonna see a pattern. He's gonna start saying not recently, long time ago. Ooh, those are gonna be his redirects. He's trying here with a minor attempt. It didn't work. So you see a nervous smile with no involvement.  And he is illustrating, however, and there's a really good example of an illustrator without using anything except his head because his arms are trapped. He does, Chase, he does your left to right timeline with his head, boom, boom, boom, boom. It's a great example of that. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, lovely. So sent to this female and there's a rise in the breathing rate. So he's already pretty high and pretty rapid, but when this idea of something being sent to a female is mentioned, you're gonna see a gear change and escalation, okay? So watch out for that. Again, breathe along, see how you're feeling around that. The swinging increases as well. It's almost a baseline through this, but it is interesting to see how certain questions are asked and the swinging increases or starts again. When does it stop? When does it start? Take a look out for that. No, definitely not. No would have been good enough. No would be okay. That would be a good enough denial. Definitely not. Okay, well, still pretty good, but we maybe don't need the definitely or the not. And then as Greg was saying that fading fact of it wasn't me, it's a little bit too much, protesting a little bit too much. Make sure you haven't seen it, says the person doing the inquiry there and he rocks back. It's minor, but in terms of his baseline, it's sufficient enough to know that something has hit him there.  Yeah, no, I mean, he says, well, that doesn't really make sense for anybody British out there who knows Vicki Pollard, he's new, but yeah, but new, but yeah, but. So we know that there's some squirming going on here. Scott, what do you got? All right, we see lip licking and nostril flare and together those are great indicators of stress.  And we see that little back and forth wiggle in the chair, that's getting faster as well and getting more of those sways back and forth. Again, these are all cues and indications of building stress and keep in mind. The chair is just one of the ways it's getting rid of that built up stress and tension. It's an adapter, of course we know adapters or anything you use to get rid of that built up stress and tension from pushing on your face to biting on your lip to doing your lips like that or licking your lips, whatever it's gonna be or a repetitive behavior. That's what gets rid of that tension. Now we can see a difference in his folded arms starting right here. So what's the difference? We can see both his hands now. So it looks like it's kind of odd because on one end it looks like his stress level's rising, on the other end it looks like it's going down. So it's this really odd juxtaposition of looking like he should look or looking like he should look and then looking stressed. So this is starting to be, I think a battle go on in his brain right now with between stress and being relaxed. Like you were saying, we hear fading facts and that's when a person's vocal volume starts to go down as they give you an answer.  It doesn't mean that every time you hear it there are no absolutes. But when somebody, if you ask them a question and the answer starts going down like this, a lot of times it could be something deceptive because quite often they'll move back a little bit as they're answering that as well but we don't see that here. Keep in mind as we're looking at this, you have to take every cue you see, all these cues we're talking about and put them into context with what's going on in real time. So his cadence is sped up, his cadence is when he's speaking how fast he talks. That's sped up a little bit and he's back to a stronger vocal tone toward the end as well. So far we're seeing cues of stress and deception but at the same time, we're seeing a few things that say he's settled down a little bit. So it's just really odd. Chase, what do you got? Yep, you guys cover a lot. If you just watched in the beginning when she says we spoke to these other parties, the blink rate goes up above 70 per minute and our average blink rate in conversation is 13, 15. Blink rate's over 70 here. In this position that he's in with these arms crossed over here, I think could mean two things. Number one, I think police usually sit in a way that uses the belt as an arm rest. In many cases you'll see this even with like resting the arm on the gun, I was on deployment, I would rest my hands on my body armor like this and just find ways to do that a lot. I don't think he's doing that. This is a bit more telling here than an arm cross. This behavior is what you'll hear Mark talk about in his TED talk. If you haven't seen it, I recommend it. This soft belly down here is more vulnerable than the chest and he's protecting the most vulnerable part that's facing this potential threat that's in front of him. And he says, I mean, for someone being younger, I wasn't one that I sent to somebody that was younger. It was an incoherent thing there. I don't think younger was mentioned by the interrogator. There's a lack of denial is a reduction of confidence. So we see confidence, if it's trotting along here and there's a dip in confidence, that's another indicator. There's a reduction of fluency. That's another great indicator. Fluencies trotting along and fluency starts going away. The words stop making as much sense as they used to the chair swiveling. You guys covered that. But right here on who shared the photo, he says, I doubt my wife would do that. So it was either your wife or whoever the other person you might have shared it with that might have shared the photo again. My question is- I doubt my wife would do that. Yeah. And I just want you to process that. What kind of person would ever say this? I doubt my wife would do that. So this is a vanishing perpetrator. The guilty people will almost always behave in ways that tend to keep ambiguity at the highest level possible. And truthful people will behave in the opposite way. And in lots of cases, suspects are gonna try to keep the suspect pool as large as possible. And they're gonna avoid answering one of the critical interview questions. Who could have done this or who might have done this? And as a quick note, the way this detective is talking here might sound a little cringy, like she's rehearsed something. But trust me, she's doing a really good job and she leaps and bounds ahead of most interviewers, which is less common. These skills that you're seeing here are far less common than you might think. All right. So of course we've spoken to, obviously the other parties involved and kind of gotten some of the information. And so the reason why this particular photo was kind of brought up is because this photo was sent to this female, which is why I wonder if this photo would be in anyone else's hands.  So this photo was sent within the last three weeks. Have you sent this photo? No, definitely not. Not to anyone within the last three weeks. Okay. And you've only shared it with a select few people. Yeah, it was, I mean, that was a long time ago, so. Okay. So I wanna make sure to get all the people you have shared it with just to make sure they wouldn't try to send it. Yeah, no, I mean, I know there's like screenshots and stuff. I don't remember that one being screenshoted on Snapchat. Yeah, because Snapchat lets you know when you're screenshotting. Yeah, it'll tell you. So that was a long time ago. So I don't know. Okay. So you don't know who I might be able to connect with this photo as far as I know. On that one? No, that was a long time ago. You said you've only shared it a couple times? Yeah, I mean, that just is a basic photo. I wanna save that one or anything like that. So it was either your wife or whoever the other person you might have shared it with that might have shared the photo again? My question is- I found my wife when she did that. Yeah. We've been together since after so long. So you dated this girl for three years and when you were 20, that's 23.  Like literally like, yeah, it was about a month apart from my ex. That's the one. So you've been with her for three years, so. You like the long-term relationships. I've always been in the long-term. Three to three, all right. You know, this, like I said, this photo was sent to this person, so they were in possession of it and we can't find any connection or reason why this photo would end up with this particular person if it wasn't shared by someone you may know or yourself. I agree, yeah. My wife and I have done it. So I don't know why she would share that. So a long time ago, my ex, I was about to break up with my ex, but she wouldn't have saved something like that either.  Yes, I'm safe stuff. I don't know if we would save a picture like that. And you'd maybe, yeah, you would save, not that one. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, so it feels to me that it starts to become a bit of a standoff as to who's gonna talk and who isn't gonna talk, but you can see who's doing all the talking here. Though he does go quiet. He does, you know, try and lock down. He does try and gain strong eye contact in order to say, yeah, I'm not gonna fill the space. He ends up filling the space. And if you're in this kind of position in terms of being the questioner and you're trying to get information from people, just say nothing and just think to yourself, yeah, you'll break first.  On the whole, they won't be able to stand the silence and they'll start to fill it. So what does he start to fill it with? Well, he's still got this squirrely baseline going on. His new baseline for me is just a consistent sense of stress and pressure now, I think. He keeps eliciting more, but some of it is undistinguishable to me. I tried to listen really carefully and I can't work out what he's saying, which is a bad thing. So I mean, I met girls on Tinder and stuff back and some safe stuff, but I don't know who would save a picture like that. That's a really bad thing. If he's not making, it's not even that he's not making sense. I can't work out the words that he's saying to even work out what sense he might be making. Maybe you can, but here's what I'd make out of all of this. What are we with three videos in here and he's already starting to decay and the decay is being caused by the interviewer here. I agree, the interviewer is doing a great job. It may look to you like, you know, she's there saying nothing. Well, that's the skill. That's the skill because most people will try and fill the space. Most people will go, oh, hang on, it's not answering the question. Think of a better question. Maybe my questions are terrible. Maybe I need to be a better interrogator, a better interviewer. No, you need to be no better. You just need to be way quieter. Greg, what do you got on this one? Yeah, Mark, great cover. I mean, there's a thing in interrogation and Sharthian interrogation called the silent approach where we sit silently in the room and pay attention to the person. It works wonderfully. The biggest mistake that questioners make is not knowing when to shut up. Number one, hands down. You can tell a senior interrogator from a junior interrogator often by that very mistake. So he's down to barely audible at this point. He's barely spitting words out because he knows he's in a bind. Now he goes back to this photo defense. Well, it was a long time ago. Now, here's an interesting piece.  They all do. I've never met one that doesn't.  It's who would have done that. This is a long time ago. That's his defense. I don't know where the picture came from. This is a long time ago. I didn't do it. I didn't talk to anybody recently. He's gonna keep playing that and she knows it. So she allows him that silence so that he has to fill in some gaps. She gives him room. So you can hear it. And then as she goes into this, you see him shifting. When he talks about a bad breakup with an ex, there's a pronounced shift in all of his body language. And he does a hard emotional eye accessing down to his right, a lot more than normal and swivels. And then he purses his lips as he says, I don't know who would have disapproval. We always wanna look at that because now this is outside of deviation. The two other things come up that are outside of deviation. The only time I see him in the entire video or raise a single finger is when he says tender.  That picture could have come from Tinder. It probably did. And he sent it to somebody inappropriate a later day. And then he raises his hand when he says who, I don't know who, and he raises his hand. Who would save a picture like that? We're gonna see that a few times in here. Now, here's the thing I'm gonna tell you. While body language is about seeing a deviation in pattern, interrogation is about finding patterns and exploiting those patterns, taking them apart until you know there is either significance or there is no significance. She's doing an artful job here because she's pushing him, letting him do his thing, letting him talk. Chase, what do you got? Yeah. Well, let's talk about this defense strategy, revelation or whatever you wanna call it. He's saying it's a long time ago, which I think could be one of two things here. Either A, this was very recent. He's directing attention away from that fact. So I can just push your focus away from anything recent. Or two, you'll see some suspects that they view it as the passing of time as a cleansing agent for both him in terms of memory and his innocence, like the guilt starts going away. And I think we're stuck in the first option here. I think something happened very recently. And when he says, I don't know who would have done that. Innocent people won't be trying to assist like this. They'll be making denials. Why is trying to find who sent this? My job, you might hear that from an innocent person.  I'm not sitting here trying, well, maybe my roommate in college or something. You won't hear that. But when he says who would save a picture like that, he's saying it's not a nude. Why would it be valuable to anyone? So I think there's some psychology being revealed here about how he views media in general. And here's one more question to layer onto your skills here. I talked a lot about asking yourself what is being concealed in some of these things? What's being hidden in the story? But this time, pay attention to what's being left out. A desire to find out who did it. Who was it sent to? What did they say? All questions that we would ask or any person who didn't do this would ask. What's being left out? Scott, what do you got? All right. I agree with you guys that the interviewer at this point, she's keeping her voice high and not playful, but it's not the regular, she got the bag cop coming in a few minutes, but she's playing that good old nice, I'm open, let's talk and everything sounds really like there's nothing wrong. That's great. She's doing a great job with that. What we see with him, we see lip licking right out of the gate on this one. And he's got a lot going on up in his head. That's why we're, again, we're seeing that push and pull from being relaxed and being all stressed. He's pretty still at first, but then he begins that swaying back and forth as he answers. So that's becoming more predominant in his behavior so far. Then he hits fading facts again, when he's talking about his wife and his past relationships and his ex-girlfriend and why she wouldn't have saved a photo like that, even though they had a bad breakup. So he knows she probably did. But the interviewer is adding what I call these bricks to her wall of logic. So hopefully she'll be able to take all these things, build a little wall that he's not gonna be able to jump over and work his way out of. That's, and I think she's doing a fantastic job of that at this point. All right, we good? Yeah. All right, that's very nice. You know, this, like I said, this photo was sent to this person. So they were in possession of it and we can't find any connection or reason why this photo would end up with this particular person if it wasn't shared by someone you may know or yourself. I agree, yeah, but my wife would have done it. So I don't know why she would share that. So a long time ago, my ex, it was a bad breakup with my ex, but she wouldn't have saved something like that either.  And yes, I'm safe stuff, but I don't know who would save a picture like that. And you'd maybe, yeah, you would save, not that one. There were also some conversations that were exchanged between you and this person. Me? Okay. Not on Snapchat? No. Not recently? Not recently, no. Now you said all of your social media accounts are private, right? Yeah.    So you're still driving the Ford Fusion. Yeah. And is it black or gray? It's gray. And you got tinted windows on it still? Yeah. And so when it comes to the photo, I really kind of just, I really want to understand why this person would be in possession of the photo, but the only one who could really help me with that is you. Yeah, I can tell you that, I don't know. Okay. Well, along with the photo came some additional information about your personal life. Okay. And based on some of the information you shared with me today, it seems to add up. Okay. So is there any reason why the person would see their view and share your information? It sounds like it'd be someone that knows me then, obviously. I don't know who, I don't have any enemies that would be doing something like that. What information was shared? What did they know?  Yeah, I mean a lot of people know that. Yeah. So that information was kind of shared. Okay. Your work schedule? Here's that work, work here. Specifically the transition to seven days on, seven days off. All right. All right, Greg, what do you got? Yeah, so here we're gonna see him go back into this internal focus and emotional eye-accessing. We say internal focus is just a thousand-yard stare. Everything is internal. So his eyes are looking somewhere, but he's not necessarily looking at where his eyes are focused. He's looking down into his right and we associate that with emotional eye-accessing. So something's going on ahead that's emotional. His respiration is up and he's wetting his lips. That's likely tied to adrenaline. Now, his adrenaline may not show the same way somebody who has not been a pitcher, not been a prison guard would be. So we just look at it. Then when they say, my favorite part of the whole thing is when she says, you and, dot, dot, dot, dot, this person. You see the stress rise in him. And he locks his eyes at her and his brows go up at me. This person. And that is feigned shock. We all know what shock looks like, so we all know how to do it. But what shock does that this does not do to him as it creates a lower blank face, your lower face goes blank as your brows go up and your brows remain longer, not up and down. This is the same thing we talk about with Amber Herb with all the rifling through emotions. And you don't follow it with fading facts. Okay, once they put you on notice. So here we go, Scott, they got your fading facts and they got a really bad job. Then he goes back to internal again. He cast his eyes down right for emotional. And then he says, I don't talk to anyone younger though. I don't talk to anybody younger though. My immediate thing would be, did I say this was a younger person? Hold on, hold on. Where'd you get that piece of data? Then he says recently, no, I haven't. Well, recently isn't, shouldn't matter. It shouldn't ever be talking to somebody on that. Who's a young person. Here he gets his eye accessing cue for social media accounts and he just goes back to wrote memory. When he says, well, yeah, I secured those. He goes to wrote memory and we associate. Anytime you recall something over and over and over in your head, it goes to wrote and or digital. And it kind of stays on, right about where your auditory memory is. I'm not going to take all these because there's a whole lot in here. His blink rate stops and he makes good eye contact back with her. As she starts talking about locking his vehicle down. And then there's a couple of last things I want to point out here. Once she gets him and she has the first real piece of evidence where she talks about work schedule, he goes from, okay, okay to, or okay, okay, okay to mm, mm. There's a deviation in baseline. Why? I'm gonna leave it there. There's other stuff guys, but I think you guys will cover some of that. So Scott, I'll hand it to you next. All right. Well, right out of the gate again, we're seeing that his adapter of licking his lips. So, and he does that almost every time. I think he may do it every time at this point. And we see that we know the stress is building, but his facial expressions and of that blank expression of and of non-concerned sort of help hiding that as we go through. Now, when he says, sounds like someone that knows me. See their view and share your information.  We see that single shoulder shrug on the left and then his chin sort of points over there, doesn't sort of it does. His chin goes over there a little bit as well. There are no absolutes in all time saying that, but I've, it's seldom have I seen someone do that and have their shoulder come up and point toward their, their chin point toward their, that single shoulder and that not be deceptive. Again, there are no absolutes, but for me that's, that's one that I usually, I usually count on. It looks like he's relaxing, but it looks like he's getting tense, but his arms are coming down a little bit more and they're starting to come apart a little bit. That's a, that's a big red flag for me. All right, Mark, what do you got? Yeah, so lots of great stuff in here. I love that me at the start as if there might be a lineup of persons of interest in the room like, no, clearly you, because you're the only person of interest in the room right now. That is bizarre. And then he goes, I didn't. And then we see a slight upturn of the mouth there. Now, is that Jupiter's delight? It looks a little bit like it. I don't know. What I wonder is, because I think he's cornered now. I think he knows that it's really coming in on him. I wonder whether there's an element of the delight of being caught. You know, I'm intrigued. I'm intrigued by that, but I don't think it's Jupiter's, but there's something going, there's an asymmetry here. And we'll see it again later on. You know, we see his breathing settle when he's asked about the data about the car. So I want you to look at when his breathing goes up and when he's asked data questions about the car and we'll start to see him settle. Now are those questions about the car baseline questions or is there some photographs with some elements of that, those vehicles in that need to, I don't know which one it is, because I just don't know this case, but we're gonna see later on data questions put towards him, which I've obviously very much to do with the case. But I do want you to notice what happens on those data questions about the car. He calms down. And then other questions come and up goes his breathing rate again. So simple data questions can be used to get a baseline, but also to get somebody used to the idea that you're gonna ask data questions later on. Still a great job by the interrogator here. Chase, what do you think? Yep, you guys got a lot of this. Right when he says me, okay. He's just assuming that, yeah, that's probably something that I would do. But that's probably something I did. He accepted it. There's no denial there. And when you hear him say, I didn't talk to anybody younger though, this is severity softening at its finest.  A whole nother conversation for that though. But let's go into vanishing perpetrator here. Anyone that you probably know in your life would be really pissed off if someone framed them in something like this. There's no anger at someone who did this. The focus is on denial. And this is permissive questioning. We see a spike in politeness or permissive questioning to the interrogator. This is a baseline deviation where he's like, can I ask what they said? Am I allowed to ask what they said? Instead of just asking what they said, a big difference there. There's no anger at the person who did this to him or set him up. And this is discovery versus denial. We can put this maybe on a pendulum. Maybe there's a cool graphic I can create for this, but innocent people don't wanna discover details about the case. They want details about the perpetrators and what the prep did. Guilty people want information about the case and what data was gathered. Innocent people will vacillate between discovery about the perpetrator and denials. And we're not seeing any of that whatsoever here. A couple of points, Mark, what you're calling data in the interrogation world, we typically call non pertinent information and it's a way to get people to feel comfortable with you collecting data. Exactly. A couple of things that I didn't mention here that I don't want us to miss. His hand rises again at who? There's the problem. We're seeing he is illustrating for some reason at who and then he withdraws his mouth at not recently again. Those words, we're starting to see a pattern that feeds through here. Data. I'll come back to that. There were also some conversations that were exchanged between you and this person. Me? No, no Snapchat? No. Not recently? Not recently, no. Now, you said all of your social media accounts are private, right? Yeah. And I know you're a law enforcement officer so I know that you've also taken the time to make your plates confidential.   So you're still driving the Ford Fusion? Yeah. And is it black or gray? It's gray. Okay. And you got tinted windows on it still? Yeah. And so when it comes to the photo, I really kind of just, I really want to understand why this person would be in possession of the photo, but the only one who could really help me with that is you. Yeah, I couldn't tell you that, I don't know. Okay. Well, along with the photo came some additional information about your personal life. Okay. And based on some of the information you share with me today, it seems to add up. Okay. So is there any reason why the person would see their view and share your information? Sounds like it'd be someone that knows me then, obviously. I don't know who, I don't have any enemies that would be doing something like that. That's why information was shared? What did they know?  Yeah, I mean a lot of people know that. Yeah. So that information was kind of shared. Okay. Your work schedule? Five years, I haven't worked here. Specifically the transition to seven days on, seven days off. Really? Yeah. That recently, I couldn't tell you who that would be. Do you guys have a master bedroom? We do, yeah. All right. Can you tell me about your master bedroom? It's, I mean, there's nothing really special too. Just because it gives me kind of some insight of like, you know, what your home life is like. Do you guys still sleep in the same room? That's a good marriage. I say that because people have been married a long time. Obviously we come into contact with a lot of them. Do you guys have a TV room? We do, yeah. Okay. What kind of a TV? Just a Samsung TV. Okay. Is it like a large room that has like one of those double door entries, because I know where this house is happening? No, no, it's a single door. It's a single door? Yeah. Okay. Any dressers or? Yeah, we have one dresser. Actually, we have three, two nice stands in the dresser. Okay. Can you describe the dresser to me? Yeah, it's like a tannish brown, I guess. Okay. Is it newer? Someway, yeah, yeah, probably. Because you never know, like sometimes when people move in, they have like that chic style look or like the modern look. So it just helps me to get an idea of what home life is like.  I mean, we still see each other at the end of the day. All right, Greg, what do you got? Yeah, we always talk about eye movement on this show. And I'm gonna show you a great example of eye movement and why it matters.  But if I ask you, hey, what color are the dots on the wallpaper in your grandmother's living room? That's a different question. Now you have to access and you have to go look for information. They start off by doing some questions that are non pertinent or appear to be non pertinent. And then she locks down the aren't. But he goes to internal voice when she's saying, hey, tell me about your master bedroom. He's looking down like, what should I say? That's internal voice down into the left. Then he starts to navigate the answer and his hands come up to illustrate it's a white room. It's just a white room. His hand does, not all his hands. Then she starts to explain away why this is non pertinent. She's saying, look, this is about your lifestyle at home. It really isn't. This is about getting to a distinctive feature that may show up in a photo or that someone has seen either on video or that. So what she's doing is fishing. He doesn't realize that yet, but he does see his hands are freed up and they're out and stacked. We just hit the I stuff. When she asked him what kind of TV, he goes to what we typically associate with auditory memory. But if you right now, remember the words to your favorite poem, your favorite lyrics to a song, your eyes are gonna go there. If I ask you to tell me about, what your grades were in seventh grade, you're gonna go there. Cause they're just memorized things. They're not things that you need to think about. And the way we memorize is repeat our own words over and over and over in their hand full of us who can't hear our own voice, but they locked down. So we get to wrote memory between our brow ridge and cheekbone. When he goes, wait, wait, wait. Really I have three.  And now he's recalling memory. They got a good baseline on this guy. You have to ask single sensory channel questions and then you get it locked down. Now when you ask him next time and his eyes go somewhere else, you're like, hold on, hold on just a minute. Let's talk about that. Chase, what do you got? This is great. I'm gonna kick this off with a pro tip. Maybe we can get a big slamming pro tip graphic up here.  As an interrogator, you don't need to explain why you're asking weird questions to guilty people.  Guilty people won't. They're gonna be excited to talk about something they think is irrelevant. And they will stay on that topic as long as you want them to. He shifts to internal dialogue when we're calling what I would think would be visual data. Greg, you hit it right on them. I'm gonna skip over that actually. Right when she asked about sleeping in the same bed and having a good marriage, you can see it on the face. There's fear and almost what I would describe as not being a facial movement expert, I would describe it as facial nausea on the face. And you'll see something called target scanning here where a suspect will squint to bring something that's potentially threatening to them into focus. And the interrogator interviewer makes a shift here at the end of this clip to elicitation. This is a good time to do it and she does it pretty well. Because you never know, like sometimes if people move in, they have like that cheek style look or like the modern look. So it just helps me to get an idea of what home life is like.  We still see each other at the end of the day. And in situations where an interior is high on training and low on experience, you'll hear stuff like what you're hearing in this video which sounds kind of scripted. If your ears probably picked up on that already that these things sound like memorized scripts. And it probably is. It's still very, very effective but the smoothness of delivery is not something you really get in training. It comes with experience over time. And I think it's probably just a young interrogator but has some really good training. Scott, what do you got? Right. Now, even though this has nothing confrontational in it, nothing changes in his body language much, not much at all. His breathing slowed down a little bit more and the same for his blink rates, pretty much the same. But now let's take a look at his left hand. That thing is open now. There's space between his fingers and it isn't gripping his elbow anymore. So what does that tell us? That tells us he's relaxed. When you see someone, when you're speaking with someone and their hand looks like this and they're talking or it's laid on the table and you don't see space between the fingers, that's one thing. But when you see space between the fingers, that suggests, that indicates, that denotes that they're a little more relaxed, a little more confident with what's going on. You see space between the fingers, that lets you know that they feel okay about things. However, we know he can't possibly feel okay about things because of the way he's sitting in the middle of all this. And even though this doesn't sound confrontational, she's just asking him questions about his home and things like that. He still knows there's something wrong there and they're on to him and he's not showing any of that. Thinking I'm headed with this, but he seems more relaxed the deeper they go. So that worries me a little bit. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, so I think you're right. He's a little bit wise that these, as Greg was saying, non-pertinent questions are very, very pertinent because one of the ways that serial offenders are tracked down is through the backgrounds in photographs and AI can do a lot of that right now. So he may understand, from my understanding right now is that he's in, works with offenders and he may be part of a community of regular offenders. And so might well know that the background to photographs is absolutely key to an arrest and to a prosecution or partly key. Now, so we're seeing asymmetrical face again. So I think he thinks he has some knowledge here and he knows he's under stress at the same time. So he does avoid being specific about the bedroom. It's just white. We know that no bedroom is just white. There's other stuff as we find out that's going on. So she asks questions about the TV which just feel like data questions, as I would say, but here's the pattern that she's taking him through which is a day-to-day pattern for me when I'm working with people to take them to a more relaxed place is you're going from data to an evaluation of that data because she asks about those specifics and then she goes, well, you know, what's the style? Is it chic? Is it modern? That's turning data into an evaluation of the data. It's giving value to that data. Well, that gets the brain to think in a whole different way and we start to see his body relax and free up a little bit around that. Now she's gonna shift him to the next moment which is emotional because she says must be hard and the voice changes and his voice changes because she shifted him very quickly from a data state to an emotional state in three moves. Do you guys have a master bedroom? We do, yeah. All right. Can you tell me about your master bedroom? So. Just because it gives me kind of some insight of like, you know, what your home life is like. Do you guys still sleep in the same room? That's a good marriage. I say that because people have been married a long time. Obviously, we come into contact with a lot of them. Do you guys have a TV room? We do, yeah. Okay. What kind of a TV? Just a Samsung TV. Okay. Is it like a large room that has like one of those double door entries for the house that's happening? No, no, it's a single door. It's a single door? Yeah. Okay. Any dressers or? Yeah, we have a lot of dresser. Actually, we have three, two nice stands in the dresser. Okay. Can you just show us the dresser, too? Yeah, it's like a tannish brown, I guess. Okay. Is it newer? Somewhat, yeah, yeah, probably. Because you never know, like sometimes when people move in, they have like that chic style look or like the modern look. So it just helps me to get an idea of what home life is like. It must be hard for you guys though because your schedules are complete, I'll say. I mean, we still see each other at the end of the day. When it comes to the crime stopper that we're investigating and the Snapchat account and of course your phone number and everything in connection with it and some of the combinations of numbers and everything there, you can understand why, obviously, we have a growing concern. And of course, your picture is attached to it, right? Which is even more like either someone's. Can I ask what you said you got new ones, too? There were images that were shared, yes, and I asked anyone, I'm sure you got them here, can I ask to see what they are? You want to see the picture? Yeah, so I can get an idea of them. Do you have anything else to say? Okay, yeah. So, I don't actually have a clear shot of one. Yeah, so I can't, I did not print out those pictures. I'm a lawyer, because this is kind of, this is uncomfortable with this, this is weird, so. Of course, like you definitely have the ability to do that and of course, this is completely voluntary. Okay. And so. I just don't want to get caught up on something, I'm working this career, I don't want to get caught up on something. I fully understand, yeah. So, you can, yes, 100% elect not to speak with us, you are not under arrest at this time. Yeah, I understand. Obviously, given the fact that we're here and the fact that we're speaking to you, I know that your bosses are gonna want to speak with you afterwards, yeah. So, we'll go ahead and allow them to speak with you after. Okay. Obviously, since you don't want to talk to us anymore, my partner here may have some. Well, I just wanted to clarify, I have a couple of questions, but you don't want to answer or can I ask you the questions? Because you can choose to answer or not answer. So, if I ask you a question and you're like, I don't want to answer that, you can tell me that, just so that. All right, I'll go first on this one. He seems pretty calm, there's lots of direct eye contact and his crossed arms don't change much at all here, but they're still in that relaxed position. His vocal tone is still strong, his cadence is a little bit faster and his breathing rate's up just a little bit. And as the questions get more sensitive, his stress level, you can tell it starts to rise. We know that by his breath, breathing rate increases a little bit. And like Greg was saying earlier, that stiff neck situation happens where he's spinning his head back and forth. When he lets him know he wants a lawyer, this interviewer was just beautiful at that. She just talks about how, yeah, he can have a lawyer, he doesn't need to say anything else all that and just keeps talking. And I just scooped right by it. He should have said, hang on a minute, I'm not saying anything, he should have said this when he first came in.  But he didn't, thank goodness. And these two work together so well, these two interviewers, they do such a great job. And this girl, this woman has done such a fine job of just getting right past that, of him wanting to shut everything down with an attorney. And he just keeps answering questions. Now, Greg, what do you got? Yeah, so let's talk about why a police officer might go in and talk without an attorney.  And remember, they'll have the police benevolent guys or rep and all that kind of stuff. But what they're afraid of doing is tainting their career. Have a good friend, just talked to him the other day, who's a police officer who has been through this, not over the same kind of stuff, put over shooting and that kind of thing. And he says, it's always awkward for you to say, I want an attorney. As a matter of fact, what the bad cop does very effectively is say, we know your department.  Go right ahead and get an attorney. That's code. That's what she's doing. And she talks them right back into it. You're right, what you should do, now you, if you're not a cop, when you say I want an attorney, that's that, I'm done.  That's it, that would be my approach. And if you're innocent, especially if you're innocent, if you're guilty, no, go ahead and tell him you did it because we want you to go to jail. But if you didn't, then you should look for somebody. So I just wanna give you that piece. There are a couple of things here. When she says, when he says, can I ask about the photo? There's grief muscle there. You see that grief muscle? It's pronounced when he talks about can I talk to a lawyer? Of course you can, she knows that. But I like the fact she pedaled past it. I'll just leave it at that and one last thing. Now his hand is coming up at do you want to answer? Or his hand moves up? This is likely some kind of a sign of helplessness in this case or perceived helplessness. The same way who was before. In who I think he was doing it intentionally. And now I think he's signaling, look, I got nothing to, I got nothing to, I got nothing to. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, I mean, it's an extraordinary situation from the point of view of somebody who's innocent. Where I am in that situation, well, I wouldn't be in it in the first place. Somebody's got some questions for me about a crime that I have nothing to do with. It's trot on and go and find yourself someone who has something to do with it. And until that point, if I'm not detained, I'm going my way, you're going your way. What do you got? Let's do a quick pro tip here. Guilty people are more fearful of breaking rapport with an interrogator. So you see that here and asking these tiny permissions for things he probably shouldn't even do. See if you can see that in here. When we talk about lip retraction a lot where the lip actually goes into the mouth. This typically indicates a need for reassurance. The interrogator I think knows that here and offers the reassurance you can watch it in the video at the precise moment of concern for him. And guess what? He keeps talking. You see this lip retraction, right as he's explaining why he needs a lawyer, yet another behavior he does not need to explain himself for. I don't want to get caught up with something is some statement that he says right towards the end. And right there, you see his hand go up here and you'll see Mark's famous joint protection that we hear about in so many of our other videos here. And right at this moment, this is where an interrogator can tell a suspect you're free to ask any question you want about this case. And if they have demanded a lawyer and are innocent, you'll hear very different questions versus an innocent person. Guilty people are gonna focus on facts against them and ask about that stuff and innocent people, if they ask any questions are gonna focus on questions about the perp or the alleged victim. Huge difference. And that's one surefire way to get a guilty person to keep on talking. You know, if you have any questions, whatsoever about this entire case, you're more than welcome to ask those questions right now. Cause he's in there in data collection mode. And that's the time to do it. When it comes to the crime stopper that we're investigating and the Snapchat account and of course your phone number and everything in connection with it and some of the combinations of numbers and everything there you can understand why obviously we have a growing concern. And of course your picture is attached to it, right? Which is even more like either someone's... Can I ask what you said you got new ones to? There were images that were shared, yes. Can I ask anyone? I'm sure you got them here. Can I ask to see what they are? You want to see the picture? Yeah, so I can get an idea. Do you have anything else to say? Yeah. So I don't actually have a clear shot of one. Yeah, so I can't... I did not print out I might not be lawyer because this is kind of... This is uncomfortable with this, this is weird. Of course, you definitely have the ability to do that and of course this is completely voluntary. And so... I just don't want to get caught up on something I'm working this career, I don't want to get caught up on something. I fully understand, yeah. So you can, yes, 100% elect not to speak with us, you are not under arrest at this time. Obviously given the fact that we're here and the fact that we're speaking to you, I know that your bosses are going to want to speak with you afterwards, yeah. So we'll go ahead and allow them to speak with you after. Obviously, since you don't want to talk to us anymore, my partner here may have some... Well, I just wanted to clarify. I have a couple of questions that you don't want to answer or can I ask you the questions? Because you can choose to answer or not answer. So if I ask you a question and you're like, I don't want to answer that, you can tell me that. I just want to make sure that we all understand each other when my partner says a younger female, understand that we mean someone under the age of 18. Yeah, that's obviously why you're here. You understand that? Yeah. Okay. Do you have any siblings? I have a younger sister, yeah, she's 19 right now. 20, sorry. Oh, okay. And then my last question was you were asking me about the house and the decorations of your house. In any of your rooms in your house, do you have that new look where they have the barn door, outer rail type thing? It's like a country, I don't know what you would call it. I see it a lot on those DIY shows. Yes. Do you have those in your house? I do have one there. Okay. That was the extent of my questions. Okay. So, do you have any other questions? I mean, can we still ask you questions or do you want to start? No, I want to wait because I'm uncomfortable with this. Okay. Okay. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, look, a little more of the same there in that she's putting now forward very clear pieces about the architecture of the house. It may sound like it's some kind of renovation show going on here, but it's really, really specific around, you know, my expectation is there's something in a photograph that would absolutely place him as very likely an offender in this situation. If he was innocent, he needs to get up and walk away right now is what should be happening. He should not be in this room right now. But for some strange reason, he's waiting for permission almost to be taken out of the inquiry. I don't know what he's waiting for here, but it's rather like he's going to say, let me just wait and see whether they just strike me out for no reason. So it's very, very odd behavior for anybody who would have any innocence here. And we've got some extreme clenching of the jaw now as well, way out of his baseline. So I think though you might be seeing nothing much happen in the rest of the body. Maybe somebody else has got something more extreme happening in the rest of the body. I do see some stuff out of baseline in the clenching of the jaw here. It's very odd behavior for anybody who has any innocence in this. Scott, what do you think? All right. Yeah, I agree. It's odd, but at the same time, that's a tight little path he's walking there because if something gets all indignant and leaves, they're going to go, and everybody there is going to know. So because there's a, I'm sure there's a way you got to handle that at that point, but I see what you're saying. I agree with you. If it's a normal person, yeah, man, shut up and get out of there, especially if you're not in the rest. But in that case, man, that's a tight little ropey on a walk right there. They're letting to put him on notice that they've got more than they've said so far, that they've got pictures of him in his home that he sent somewhere because he's calling out stuff that he'll recognize, like the DIY stuff, like you were saying, Mark. So they've got stuff on them and they're letting him know. So that's putting him on notice. There's one thing I want to talk to you about real quick because as we wrap up here, I'm going to hit on something and I think we know where I'm going. There's a guy named Dr. Now he's not a doctor, but Robert Hare, he's like the godfather of modern psychopathy, I guess you'd say the study of it anyway. And he did a study a while back and it was called the fear arousal and anticipated pain of a psychopath. But I'll put the link on that below. And what it is, is it's a study that focuses on what happens when a psychopath knows that something unpleasant is coming and how they act and how they react, how the brain reacts to that. And I'm not going to go through it because it takes too long. It's really, it's horrifically boring. But I'll put the link to it down below and so if you click that link, once we're finished watching this, they'll take you to that study and you can read about it. It's fascinating if you like that kind of thing. All right, Chase, what do you got? You all covered most everything. I'll just say one thing here and this will be a challenge for the panelists, which we call our subscribers or panelists. And just remember the old vanishing perpetrator here watching this clip and think of the outrage that you would personally feel here and the anger of being set up in this horrifying thought of a little child being seduced by an adult. You will not see that in this clip, but you will see vanishing perpetrator. Let me know in the comments down here if you saw it and where you spotted it. Greg? Yeah, I'm going to tell you that if I asked each of you how you resist interrogation and you've not been taught and never learned, your first tell or your first thing is going to be over-friendly. Almost everybody thinks that's the right answer because if I appear to be somebody that knows something, then you're going to tear me apart. So most people, that will be their first failure.   I get use elicitation techniques. I get to manipulate the conversation. I get to get you to write stuff down.  So that's failure number one. The thing here that we all do see is that when we're being investigated about police officers, if you get pulled up or by a cop today, you're going to do all of those things. So it doesn't matter where he's guilty or not, but she pushes him back into the game and gets him to talk. And she paints this threat about this is underage. He goes, oh, obviously, or you wouldn't be here. She goes at non-pertenant mark. You're right. But it's not non-pertenant. And what she's doing here, she's going to do all of those things. She's going to do all of those things. She's going to do all of those things. And what she's doing here, interrogators only as good as their brain working under stress. And most interrogators can't be Colombo. They can't go slam, slam, slam, slam, and then tie it together at the last second with just one more thing. What most interrogators do is concentric circles. That's how their brains work. You can see her's working. She's locking it down and locking it down and locking it down and locking it down. And what she's doing is she's alluding to the fact they have something damaging. And I always say the power of a slap is in the draw. Because the minute I make contact with your face, you know how hard I can slap. But before I slap you, you're going to go, oh, how hard is this going to be? To your point, you've just tipped, Scott. Letting that brain, letting a person's brain fill in all of those gaps is more powerful than anything physical you can ever do. That's why I say good interrogators don't use physical violence. Because once they do that, they've used any tool and they've lost all the effectiveness of whatever that that therapy is. I just want to make sure that we all understand each other when my partner says a younger female understand that we mean someone under the age of 18. Yeah, that's obviously why you're here. You understand that? Yeah. Okay. Do you have any siblings? I have a younger sister. Yeah, she's 19 right now. 20, sorry. Oh, okay. And then my last question was she was asking me about the house and the decorations of your house. In any of your rooms in your house, do you have that new look where they have like the barn door, outer rail type thing? It's like a country, I don't know what you would call it. I see it a lot on like those DIY shows. Yes. You have those in your house? I do have one too. Okay. That was the extent of my questions. Okay. So, do you have any other questions? I mean, can we still ask you questions or do you want to stop? No, I want to wait because I'm uncomfortable with this. Okay. So, then, you know, I want to thank you for even taking the time to speak with me for this long. I can imagine that obviously being confronted with any level of questions can be uncomfortable. So, I do appreciate that you've allowed us to speak with you even for this long. Okay. So, with the next step, however, I'm going to go ahead and pull some documents here for you. So, there are a few steps that we're going to be taking after this. Again, you are not being detained by us or anything, but we are acting on behalf of the court moving forward. Okay. Okay. So, I will give you a chance to read through this. This is a search warrant that was granted this afternoon by a judge. Okay. The warrant does allow us to grab some DNA swabs from you. Okay. As well as any mobile devices that might be in your possession or potentially in your locker. Do you have your personal phone with you here? I do have one. Okay. Is it inside your locker? It's on the first right now. Okay. So, we'll... If you want to go ahead and hand it to us, we definitely don't need to go in and grab it from you. Okay. But the search warrant does require that we take it from you. Okay. Okay. Additionally, it does allow us to have access to your vehicle. Okay. Is your vehicle parked here? It's parked a few blocks away. Okay. Do you remember exactly where you were? It's over across from Cap's Pizza over there. Cap's Pizza? Yeah. Is it like in a parking lot? It's a parking lot. Okay. Is it like one of those paid parking lots? Yeah. Okay. So, Cap's Pizza. I'll put a note on that. So, the warrant does allow for us to also process your vehicle.  No. We're going to process it here. Okay. So, that we actually have someone here that's going to help us take some pictures and just go ahead and do what needs to be done so we don't have to. Okay.  Yeah. So, that's why we actually brought our technician with us here because it is obviously, we obviously want to take your DNA with the least effort possible. So, that's why we're using the swabs. And the same goes for, of course, your phone which you stay with on your person. We don't want to put hands on if we don't have to. Yeah, no, I understand. We'll give it up. Like you said, as a law enforcement officer, you're willing to comply. With that being said, after that, we will also have access to your locker. Are your vehicle keys inside your locker? My vehicle keys are in my vehicle right now. They're in your vehicle? Yeah. So, you have a code? I have a code. Okay. Would you mind sharing that code with us? Um, I'll have a lawyer say no to that. Well, the warrant allows for us to have access to your vehicle. Okay. Yeah, so you'll break it. Yeah, that's fine. I'll give it up to you. Okay. I'll jot it down. Okay. I don't know the number. I know the yellow. Would it help if you drew the keypad? Yeah. Do you want to draw the keypad? Yeah. I'm the same way, so. This is... All right, Greg, what do you got? Yeah, I'm going to talk about interrogation process more than body language at this point. But what we do see is a non-threaten body language show up his baseline. He starts now to open up and move around and talk, which he should have been doing all along. In the interrogation, we have a step called termination. Termination can be the end of an interrogation or it can be a break in an interrogation. What we do is we reinforce what's worked up to now. So for example, I know that you might have done some things wrong, but let's get to the bottom of this. Then I'll tell you what's next. Hey, here's what we're going to do next. You'll be talked to again. And everything you've said to me, we're going to check out.  And I've actually put prisoners back in their cell and said, tomorrow when I talk to you, I want to know these three things. It's called termination. And we may, even if we're talking to you and we're interrogating you and we find a piece of data we didn't know, we may terminate to a small termination, walk out, get more information and come back in. We don't leave you wondering because it's a process and it keeps your brain conditioned to respond. So this is what we're seeing. She has him down in the business. We call this file and dossier where you have a file. You may call it a BS file, whatever you call it, people who learn on their own are going to have a different term than people who learn from this process. And she puts it on the folder and she's got all his attention. Now, when that happens, he opens up any means for it because he's trying to get the information. That's a process. And then I, here's one great piece of body language. When she asked him where his vehicle is parked, do you want to know what his eye accessing for audit, for visual cue is up left high.  Can you tell me what you're wearing? They got no reason to lie. So boom, boom, boom, my baseline and while I'm looking through their clothes, here's real shock. When he says you're going to take my vehicle, brows go up longer. His face is blank. Compare this back to video four when he feigns shock at a conversation between him and an underage girl. She is feeling apprehension, meaning investigator now. How you can tell is that rapid speed up in conversation, poor choice of words or sentences start to fall apart. She says obviously, obviously back to back. I've interrogate. I've taught enough interrogators and sat through the interrogation booth and watched them so many times. I can always tell you when their brains are hitting the squirrel in the road moment. And that's where she's at. She knows that she still needs to keep him talking. So she has to keep him cooperating. And I think she's feeling some stress because she knows that lawyer can come in. That's what I got mostly around interrogation process. Chase, what do you got? I'm just giving you another interrogation tip. The bond languages is pretty apparent here. But in the interrogations, thanking people and saying thank you to every act of compliance is very important. And you're seeing that here, even giving you that person's name, getting their name and their home address and just writing that down, thanking them for every act of compliance. That's a very important thing that it becomes a process. If they're wanting rapport with you, they're starting to earn it and they're getting rapport by being compliant and you start rewarding that from the first vocal interaction of the interrogation. Scott? All right. Well, at the beginning, this is the lowest we see his hands and arms at rest. And it seems he's getting more and more relaxed as things move forward. And even though the questions are becoming more personal and they're digging deeper into what's going on into his personal stuff and his behavior that's in question, he still seems relaxed at this point. And the interviewer asks him or she thanks him and we see that adapter of licking one more time. It's a lot bigger than it's been up to this point. And then the swaying engages again and he's falling right back into that pocket we've seen the whole time. He doesn't relax into it, but he gets back into that pocket of it. His voice tone is strong. His diction is clean. His breathing rate is about the same as it has been. He makes good solid eye contact and no expressions of worry or anything else, really. Not much happened there expression-wise. We see his eyes widen as soon as she pulls the information seats out and then he moves his elbows forward and his elbows on the table to get a closer look. He's trying to be relaxed at that point, but you can see at that point you can see that worry just skim over his face really, really quickly. And when she asks about Cap's pizza some are going to think they see this expression of contempt because part of his mouth goes up a little bit there. But I think what we're seeing there is part of his swallowing protocol.  So if you saw that good call, good find, but that's not a micro expression. That's Tim Swung. He took me a couple minutes to figure out what was going on and to make sure I could say that. So I watched it a few times to make sure. Then now she tells him about all the processing they're going to do. We see that lip licking again. And this time it's much larger than we saw the last time that he was doing it. So the stress is building in at this point. He's stressed, but he's got it under control, but he's leaking all kinds of cues of that stress. Let us know what's really going on up there in his brain as he's fighting to relax while he's getting stressed. He's doing a great job. And I think that that interviewer again, she just, I think she's great. I know we say it's about a lot of interviews we see on here and interrogators as well. And I'm sure she's an interrogator as well. She sure does a great job at this of just making it sound like nothing's wrong. She's telling them all this heavy stuff they're getting ready to do. They're going to swab him, do all this stuff. And she just makes it sound like they're, you know, they're talking about something from, you know, that happened earlier in the day before they go eat lunch. I think that's brilliant the way she handles that. Brilliant. All right, Mark, what do you got? Yeah, so here's what I see. I see fingers interlaced, but in a mixed manner, there's a lot of tension in there. So I agree there is stress. He's doing his best to act casual, doing a good job. Like, are you going to search for DNA? Yeah, sure, no problem. He's doing his best, but I can see a lot of tension there. The hand trembles as he pulls the document in towards him. Again, stress and pressure. The face has become lifeless and waxy, which I would say he's started into the faint response now. I think he knows that this is really coming down on top of him. His hands retract under the table. We haven't seen that before. So he pulls in the document, tremble, hands retract under the table and fig leaf slightly. He then has to support his upper body on one of his arms because he's become concave now. We haven't seen him concave before. You'll see that concave as Chase was saying before because he's trying to protect this softer area here. You'll see this predominantly in adolescent females as a good generalization will become concave, often as a baseline in that area because of being, as their body changes, unsure about how to manage that and what that might mean and how other people view that. When he becomes concave, his breathing almost stops. So you might look at him and go, hey, I think he's relaxed, but he's not breathing, I think at some points. You'd want to say, hey, take a breath. It's going to be okay. She is not, you know, I agree, Greg, that her structures have fallen apart a little bit, but she is relentless. She's not letting him read the document. Not letting him read the document. My understanding though could have got this wrong is that's a search warrant and he's not getting to read that search warrant. It's the thing that says they can search his car, they can take DNA from him. That's a proper legal document. Wherever it may, I'd be going, hold back, stop your questions. You can ask me something when I've read this document and not until I've read this document. I'll take all the time I need and actually get me a lawyer or am I detained? Because if I'm not detained, I'm taking this document and I'm showing it to somebody else, okay?  So I don't know what he's up to there. I think he's overloaded to the extent that he gives the code to his car in the air. Put down below what the code to his car is. It's four numbers. It's very easy to see. He draws it out in the air for you. So Ben, I want to thank you for even taking the time to speak with me for this long. I can imagine that obviously being confronted with any level of questions can be uncomfortable. So I do appreciate that you've allowed us to speak with you even for this long. Okay. So with the next step, however, I'm going to go ahead and pull some documents here. Oh, yeah. So there are a few steps that we're going to be taking after this. Again, you are not being detained by us or anything, but we are acting on behalf of the court moving forward. Okay. So I will give you a chance to read through this. This is a search warrant that was granted this afternoon by a judge. The warrant does allow us to grab some DNA swabs from you. Okay. As well as any mobile devices that might be in your possession or potentially in your locker. Do you have your personal phone with you here? I do have one. Okay. Is it inside your locker? It's on the first right now. Okay. So if you want to go ahead and hand it to us, we definitely don't need to go in and grab it from you. Okay. But the search warrant does require that we take it from you. Okay. Additionally, it does allow us to have access to your vehicle. Okay. Is your vehicle parked here? It's parked a few blocks away. Okay. Do you remember exactly where you were? It's over across from Cap's Pizza over there. Cap's Pizza? Yeah. Is it like in a parking lot? It's a parking lot. Okay. Is it like one of those paid parking lots? Yeah. Okay. So Cap's Pizza. I'll put a note on that. So the warrant does allow for us to also process your vehicle. Can I take my vehicle? No, we're going to process it here. So that we actually have someone here that's going to help us take some pictures and just go ahead and do what needs to be done so we don't have to. Okay.  Yeah. So that's why we actually brought our technician with us here because it is obviously, we obviously want to take your DNA with the least effort possible. So that's why we're using the swabs.  We don't want to put hands on if we don't have to. Yeah. Obviously. Like you said, as a law enforcement officer, you're willing to comply. With that being said, after, after that, we will also have access to your locker. Are your vehicle keys inside your locker? My vehicle keys are in my vehicle right now. They're in your vehicle? Yeah. So you have a code? I have a code. Okay. Would you mind sharing that code with us? Um, I'll have a lawyer say no to that. Well, the warrant allows for us to have access to your vehicle. Okay. Yeah. So you're breaking it. Yeah. That's fine. I'll give it up to you. Um, I'll drive it down. Um. Thank you. I know the number. I know the number. Would it help if you drew the keypad? Yeah. Do you want to draw the keypad? Yeah. I'm the same way. So. As you see here, it does state here that we have premises as well to enter your home at 8621 Chaparral Way. Okay. So we are going to attempt to do this in the quickest way possible. And the way that it's obviously going to, this can't be an easy process. We recognize that. Um, and we don't. Yes. Okay. Um, is your mom at your house right now? She's not. Okay. Um, your wife, she is at home? She is at home. Okay. Um, is it just your wife at home? Just my wife, you know. Okay. Um, and her name is. Okay. You won't be sending any black and whites over to the house? No. Okay. Um, so we're going to do this kind of systematically. Um, the very first thing that we will do is of course, this fog and the phone. Yeah. Um, do you have any other USB drives? Anything like that on your person? I know sometimes for work, we carry them around with us. I might have a USB in my locker, but that's just a work locker USB. Okay. Um, so we'll get that started. Okay. And then after that, we know that your employers want to speak with you again. We are infested. Okay. So they recognize that.  We can't speak to that. Um, but of course, um, they obviously want the opportunity to speak with you. Um, then of course we'll, um, process the locker and then process your vehicle. Okay. Um, and again, we'll do it systematically and as quickly as we can, um, to alleviate any additional stresses that this already is causing. Um, and then we'll go ahead and go to your home and we hope to be in and out fairly quickly. Okay. Okay. And by, um, I guess I'm staying here. I'm not going to go with you guys or anything like that. Um, so no, you are, you are not in custody. You are not under arrest. You are not even being detained. And that's why you had the right to stop speaking with us at any time. Um, there's no locks on the door. You had the opportunity to leave if you choose to. Um, and like I said, thank you for speaking to us as long as you didn't. Um, so if you have any questions, we are here. If it's okay with you, I'm just going to grab my lab technician to start that. Okay. Um, and where is your cell phone on you? It's on my personal right now. Are you guys going to keep my phone? Yes. Uh, chase. What do you got? There is a progressive buildup of some fight or flight. No doubt. Uh, Greg's going to be talking about this. But all of our wet stuff of our body just gets really dry. Very quickly. Uh, but one thing I want you to pay attention to do here when you watch this again is this rapid responsive movement.  This is programmed in all of us. All of us have this.  We're, we're looking at it. We're target locking with our eyes, but we're also pointing these. Little ears that are made to reflect sound. Right at that thing. So we see a huge spike in hyper compliant behavior. And I think the interrogator here could have done just a bit better separating herself from the authority figures involved in the investigation using the word they instead of we is very important to how the suspect relates to and then identifies the relationship with the interrogator. I know it's over, but she may have to interview her. Again in the future. That's all I'm going to say with that one. Greg, what do you got? Yeah, I could hear again. I could hear her rushing her speech and those kinds of things. So I think she knows she's got a little bit of a relationship problem there. You can look guys. This is only the first investigation and you're right.  So we'll leave it at that on her. But cool as a cucumber has gone in this guy and flyer flight is through the roof. And so chase you. You're dead on the two systems that we use in our normal life. Our reproductive system is we're scanning for potential mates and our digestive systems. We think about food. Two of our biggest drives in life. Throughout the window. When we get into fire flight. Once an amygdala decides that, hey, this is a threat. We don't suddenly need our digestive and reproductive systems anymore. So it turns off. We're pretty primitive. It turns off all that. All those mucous membranes that are tied up in those two systems. And we get blink rate increases. We get. Licking our lips. We get gas. Strict noises as the parasympathetic and sympathetic systems argue about who's in charge. You'll hear gastric noises in the person and you'll see all that. But one of the first things that the body does is take blood away from the skin. Away from mucous membranes and pump it to muscles and then start to try to get more air.  Now if you go all the way back to the beginning to hear his lips are drawn. He's thin. This is a great example. A beautiful example. Of fight or flight. One of the best we've ever had. He does some increased face touching here. But more importantly, this is the place where people feel stressed the most and he touches it. He telegraphs it. You can't ask for a better telegraph than face touching that way. And then I see disdain. As I think it's about what he's created for himself. I can't tell that but I do see disdain. Mark, what do you. Yeah. So I agree. Fire and flight is really kicking off for him. He blocked it. He sells soothes. We haven't seen that from him before. On my wife's going to freak out right now. Yeah. She that's not all that's going to happen. It's going to be tonight right now. He says and we see a very primal response, which is the alkaloid response, which is the bitter taste in the mouth. And we have that from being a kid. When you're a kid. And you're eating herbs. You need to know the ones that would be medicine for an adult, but poison for an adult. You need to know the ones that would be medicine for an adult, but poison for a kid or poison for everybody. And it's instantly detected in the mouth that it gives you that weird feeling at the back here. He's getting that weird bitter taste without it.  There may be some vomit coming up as well, which will do the same, the same thing. But we tend to see that alkaloid response a lot when people are tasting something bitter in the environment for them. So a really primal response going on there. Great to see because it's a great example. I think we see it a couple of times there. Scott, what do you got on this one? All right. His cadence is a little bit fast and his sentences are these short four and five word sentences, which makes sense because he's trying to get through this while being able to think at the same time. His breathing rate shallow, his level was a little bit odd. And his facial expressions when they're not blank and the expressions that it changes to slightly, they don't last very long. Doesn't say they're very long because he goes back to that blank thing as he's trying to focus on what's happening. When he says my wife is going to freak out, he does that chin rubbing and that's a classic adapter. But quite often, depending on what you do, like I'm doing it right now, people will do that when they're thinking. I always do it when I'm thinking about something like that. If you're an entrepreneur and you're pitching to investors, you're caught off and you'll see them do this as well because they're thinking about the future or the numbers you're telling us going to work in five years, six years, 10 years, what's going to happen with that? How are things looking? And they're doing numbers and stuff in their head. So they'll do this to think and that's totally fine. But here I think he's using as an adapter and he's beginning to think through those, the protocols of this process that's going to happen when they go through his stuff and his car and his house and get his DNA. He's starting to think about all that and that weight starting to build up on him at this point, I think. As you see here, it does state here that we have premises as well to enter your home at 8621 Chaparral Way. So we are going to attempt to do this in the quickest way possible and the way that it's obviously going to, this can't be an easy process. We recognize that and we don't. Yes.  She's not. Okay. Your wife, she is at home? She is at home. Okay. Is it just your wife at home? Just my wife, you know. Okay. And her name is... Okay. You won't be sending any black and whites over to the house? No. Okay. Just so that... Is it going to be tonight right now? Yeah. Okay. Yes. So we're going to do this kind of systematically. The very first thing that we will do is of course this fog and the foam. Yeah. Do you have any other USB drives? I don't. Anything like that on your person? I know sometimes for work we carry them around with us. Yeah. I might have a USB in my locker but that's just a work locker USB. Okay. So we'll get that started. Okay. And then after that we know that your employers want to speak with you. Again, we are infestigating allegations. Yes.  We can't speak to that. But of course they obviously want the opportunity to speak with you. Yeah. Then of course we'll process the locker and then process your vehicle. Okay. And again, we'll do it systematically and as quickly as we can. Okay. To alleviate any additional stresses that this already is causing. And then we'll go ahead and go to your home and we hope to be in and out fairly quickly. Okay. And by, I guess I'm staying here. I'm not coming with you guys or anything like that. So no, you are not in custody. You are not under arrest. You are not even being detained. That's why you had the right to stop speaking with us at any time. There's no locks on the door. You had the opportunity to leave if you choose to. And like I said, thank you for speaking to us as long as you did. Yeah, no problem. So if you have any questions we are here. If it's okay with you, I'm just going to grab my lab technician to start that. Okay. And where is your cell phone on you? It's on my purse right now. Can we go ahead and press that something? Do you have... So you guys are going to keep my phone? Yes. Do you have any other... As far as your phone, yes, we airplane mode. Yes, for sure. I don't want to break your phone and sometimes when we access it without your code it could... I mean, who knows. So is it possible for us to get your... You guys would break my phone? No, I'm just saying they will get into it like hard-wise and I don't want to cause any damage to the phone if it's unnecessary.  I'd rather say no to that. No. I'm a lawyer for this. Okay. Okay, swipe down so you can put an airplane mode. Okay. Yeah. Greg, what do you got? Yeah. I'm not even going to talk a lot about bioengineering this one. I'm going to talk to you about stress psychology. Now, I worked in the most significant stress psychology lab on earth when I worked in the resistance training laboratory because we captured people. We held them captive for days. We did physical things to them. We put them under so much to rest that we studied what happened to them. And I remember when you first started there we had a stress psychology class, psychology of capture. I'm not going to run through all the details because that's hours of training.  You start running for this, then that, then this, and that glitchy movement you see is an indicator. But what we know more importantly is what it does to the psyche. So for example, when I was standing in formation, it was predictable that if there are 20 of us and a guy came toward the formation, who do you think that person is coming to injure when you're under this kind of stress? You're not worried about this guy or that guy. In fact, if they come and grab that guy as sad as it is, you feel some relief because everything becomes personal when you're under this kind of stress. Everything becomes personal and you see it in him because he's, it's all about self at the moment. I won't go into why or all that, but just know that under that kind of dress, it all becomes about self. The second part of the process is things become black and white when you're under that kind of dress because the human is looking for a binary decision and A or B and we pair their options and pairing options is a good part of interrogation by making them believe they only have one option. In fact, they have millions of options. It's just that we're not letting them see all of those. So it becomes personal. It becomes black and white. And then finally, the person tries to control whatever they have any control over. Let me give you a great example of that. If you've ever seen the assassination of John F. Kennedy and you saw part of his head disappear and go in the back trunk of the car behind him and Jacqueline on NASA's climbs out on the trunk. People believe either one or two things. She's either going to reach for the part of his body that was dislodged or she's trying to get out of the vehicle. Either one of those is irrational. Either one of those is irrational. But that's what she could control. And that's what we see here. What we're seeing here is it all becomes all about self at the moment. And then he hears break his phone.  He just hears break his phone. And then he tries to grasp and control and say, I'm going to use an attorney to stop this. That's all stress psychology 101. We know it. I will guarantee you that when you have persons under this kind of duress, you can smell them. I have had my hands on prisoners most of my life. When a person's under this kind of stress, you can smell their body odor change. It's a very distinct metallic smell. You can't mistake it. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, I agree. So it's his brainstem functioning there. The brainstem is in it for you. My brainstem is in it for me. Your brainstem is in it for you. Doesn't care about me. My brainstem and it does black and white thinking. It has no gradations of gray whatsoever. And he definitely is in that state right now. He's lost all he's lost all language capacity to read. You'll see it there. He's not reading that document. He's just staring at it. He should be reading that document because that's a court order. You'd want to know if they made any mistakes here. Have they because that'd be beautiful if they've made some mistakes and you're guilty. Most of the evidence that they find won't be admissible because there's something wrong in the court order. He needs a lawyer to be looking through that document right now. He has I would say almost utterly compliant at this point just handing over his phone. You know it's a great it's actually I think a great example of compliance because he's in the rollover and play dead situation.  No, not with that skin tone and I've accounted for the lighting keeps changing. So if you go yeah, yeah, but the lighting keeps changing. I've accounted for that. Blood has drained away from his brain. He can't read anymore.  They have got him in a very, very compliant state and look how quickly that happened and he's guilty which is a which is a good thing but you'd want to watch out if you weren't guilty because you would not want to be in that room because you can be into those kind of states as well. So if you've done nothing wrong you don't want to be there because you might end up in that kind of state and have done nothing wrong. Chase, what do you got? Let's just talk about his decline really quick. Just take me a few minutes. If you imagine the Maslow's pyramid he walks in there potentially maybe at the top of the pyramid which is where we have self-actualization and right in that self-actualization part you know he's achieved some individual potential. He's got the job that he always wanted he's got the badge on the uniform that he's always wanted to do X, Y, Z for a living. Then that goes away because he gets called into an interrogation. The next level down is self-esteem and we get that from self we also get from other people. Self-esteem starts going down the moment the accusation starts coming up evidence starts coming up then he starts worrying how are people going to react to this. Then we move down one level to belonging. This is where we get our feeling of belonging from the people around us and then he's saying oh crap I might be put in jail at this point. So then we get down into the safety part and there's only one level left and then he's starting to think of what could potentially happen to a police officer who has also committed the crimes that are committed while in jail and now we're on the bottom of physiological we have health food and sleep survival. So we're all the way down we started at the top and we've walked our way to the bottom of the Maslow's pyramid he's not worried about safety belonging esteem or actualization just survival at this point making sure that his body stays alive and your spinal cord like Mark said is absolutely in charge if you want to prove it to yourself try to hold your breath until you die you can't because your spinal cord will take over and take charge that's all I got all right then I'll go next all right so I'm sorry do I not I have my head it looks awesome I didn't know yeah it's been one of those as we've gone along so up until the last two clips his mouth has been closed the whole time you might notice that and for these last two that mouth is open and we seem breathing a little bit heavier because now fight or flight if freeze fight or flight is kicked in man and it's all starting to make him unravel as far as he's going to unravel which isn't going to be much but once you know now what to look for you can see all these things we've been talking about so now his mouth is open usually when he's been at rest at this point just zipped just zipped up and this lets us know he's feeling stressed I can go on there's like 45 minutes of this stuff I'm going to go on with that if we had seen all these early on then this would have been an entirely different interview I think because they could have gone down so many things but I think he did a dang good job of holding it together up until the end here any other as far as your phone is airplane mode yes for sure I don't want to break your phone and sometimes when we access it without your code it could I don't know who knows so is it possible for us to get your code you guys would break my phone no I'm just saying it like hard eyes and I don't want to cause any damage to the phone if it's unnecessary I mean you don't have my phone I'd rather say no to that I'm an all in the lawyer for this okay okay swipe down so you can put it in airplane mode okay don't let's start around the room one time and talk 30 seconds or less about what we think we've seen and sort of wrap it up Mark why don't you go first yeah I think it's a very quick police officer with some status in there to absolutely not knowing what's going on anymore and you can't even read a document by the end of it chase yep I totally agree this entire thing was just and a devolution I think that's a word throughout the entire process the body language gets worse progressively worse the cool thing I think here is that the interrogator maintained her cool and maintained almost a maternal slash paternal position where it was calm confident demeanor that was almost transferable so as an interrogator I want to transfer confidence not lower my confidence over somebody else Greg yeah this is a great example of how a good interrogation works even without a confession remember confession is admissible the interrogation stuff may or may not be but they get information as they go what we see is a guy the organism does what made the organism successful he's a prison guard and a pitcher he's got pretty good control of his body language until he doesn't remember we say body language is not about absolutes it's about finding deviations and interrogation is about finding patterns and exploiting them until there is no meaning we see a really good example and he does a really denial-based approach trying to placate the interrogator to capture takes over Scott, what do you got? yeah that's great and I think it's a great example of seeing someone who is like totally trying to keep together and keeping it together and not looking stressed but showing all cues of stress while not looking stressed in the face while not showing the expressions I just think that was really great it's going to be one of my favorites all right I think this is a good one fellas and we'll see you next time Bill