Good afternoon everybody. I think we're now ready to start the DDRC meeting Welcome members staff and guests. We ask for your patience during this meeting Multiple staff members are behind the scenes to make sure that meeting runs smoothly and all participants and citizens are able to communicate With the Commission at the appropriate times If you are watching virtually you may see images of anyone present at the meeting However, images of anyone participating virtually will not be visible in addition to watching the meeting virtually the public will be able to participate via these methods You can participate via email Logging into the web session are participating in person when participating. Please provide your name for documentation purposes If you're watching you can stream the meetings through city TV accessed at www.youtube.com Backslash user backslash Columbia SC government If you're emailing you can submit letters and statements to CoC board meeting at Columbia SC gov Leading up to and or during the meeting as this account will be monitored during the proceedings Emails or letters sent during the meeting will be read into the record Emails or letters received prior to the meeting have been forwarded to the Commission If you're phoning in you can call<PHONE_NUMBER> When prompted please enter the meeting code 4020 Those participating by phone will receive three options on how to participate Star one will allow you to listen star two will allow you to record a voicemail message that will be read into the record Star three will allow a participant to be placed in a queue so they may speak live when prompted Please make sure your computer audio is muted muted if calling in live via your phone You can stream via the web at public input calm backslash CoC ddrc-bog AUG 2021 If you're here in person And you want to speak about a case today you must speak up when the chairperson calls for public comment I'll call the roll Amy just and before you do. I'll just note since this is our kind of first In-person slash hybrid public meeting so just remind all commissioners when you speak with the mask on to be loud clear and slow That's right, and just remember to you have to push your button on your mic in order for it to work It looks like it's lit until you actually push it and then you realize the brighter light indicates it's lit Just in case that's helpful Mr. Baker present miss Branham present mr. Brim present Miss jaco present miss Johnson present mr. Wolf Present we have quorum in order to avoid ex parte communications ddrc members are under strict instructions not to discuss cases under consideration with the public or with each other outside of the public forum The meeting typically starts with staff calling the case giving a summary of the project and then calling on the applicant to present if they wish Decisions are typically made in one evening Decisions may be appealed within 30 days to a court of competent jurisdiction Oaths will be administered individually as we hear either from applicants or from live speakers Applicants with requests before the ddrc are allotted a presentation time of 10 minutes This time should include but is not limited to an overview of the project case history and any pertinent meetings held regarding the request This time also includes all persons presenting information on behalf of the applicant such as attorneys engineers and architects This time limit does not include any questions asked by the ddrc or staff regarding request Members of the general public are given the opportunity to address their concerns and intervals of two minutes Applicants may have five minutes to respond Staff has a timer and will make presenters aware of when their time has expired Are there any changes to the agenda? There are not The ddrc uses the consent agenda to approve non controversial or routine matters by a single motion and vote If a member of the ddrc or the general public wants to discuss an item on the consent agenda They must speak up immediately After the consent agenda is read and asked a project been removed from the agenda and considered as part of the regular agenda during the meeting The ddrc then approves the remaining consent agenda items. Will staff please read the consent agenda? Certainly the first item on the consent agenda is 1731 Hayward Street a request for design approval for an addition in the wales garden architectural conservation district The next case is 3101 Amherst Avenue a request for design approval for exterior changes and in addition as well as for preliminary Certification for the Bailey bill. This is in the oakwood court architectural conservation district The final case on the consent agenda is 12 25 to 12 29 Lincoln Street It's a request for design approval for exterior changes and for preliminary Certification for the Bailey bill. This is in the Westervay historic commercial district Is there anyone from the ddrc that would like any item removed from the consent agenda? Is there anyone from the public either here today in person or is participating virtually that would like to have an item removed from the consent agenda? When participating, please provide your name for the minutes Please communicate by sending an email to coc board meeting at Columbia as seen I go Or please communicate via phone by pressing star 2 to leave a voicemail or star 3 to speak in person We'll pause a moment to allow any communication from the public We don't currently have any emails regarding the consent agenda Madam chair, we're just waiting sometimes. There's a little lag time So we're waiting to allow for any comment We've received no communication from the public Do I have a motion in a second to accept the consent agenda and also the July minutes so moved So we had a motion in a second mr. Bram Yeah, miss Brannum. Yes Miss Fuller-Wilt. Yes, miss Jacob. Yes, miss Johnson Mr. Wolf. Yes, and mr. Baker. Yes, the motion passes now move on to the regular agenda Staff can present the first case. Sure So the first case on the regular agenda is 22 22 Main Street This is a request for certificate of design approval for a new construction in the north main corridor overlay This proposal is for a mixed-use development on the site of the former Jim or Cadillac dealership between Maine Sumter streets of between Franklin and Scott streets The development proposes 248 residential units and a few live-work units The development utilizes primarily structured parking with some surface parking the project was before the Commission for an informational presentation in May The Commission generally Commended the site plan with a few suggestions about addressing the visibility of the parking garage for North Main Street Architecturally the Commission recommended a simplified materials palette with a more commercial appearance along the primary corridors Emphasizing the importance of the percentage of illustration as well as the depth of openings to provide articulation to the facade staff comments reference the design guidelines For the North Main Corridor design district within your packets The building is primarily cited appropriately Addressing the street frontages with narrow setbacks and placing surface parking to the interior of the parcel and or screened from the right-of-way The one exception which is a change from the informational presentation is the garage frontage on Sumter Street Previously previously there were residential units Along the Sumter Street side of the parking garage providing active frontage along the sidewalk Due to some great challenges The units have been moved to the west rear side of the garage leaving the garage frontage exposed along the sidewalk While landscaping is proposed to soften and screen the facade It is far less effective than addressing the public realm with residential units particularly on this neighborhood facing frontage The building provides straightforward commercial space with large door front windows that would easily accommodate various uses over time The applicant has responded to the comments at the May meeting effectively by providing additional brick on the facades Increasing their percentage of openings and scaling back some of the more stylized details to respond to the simpler context of the North Main Corridor The building floor plan utilizes recesses and projections to effectively break up the long street frontage into architectural bays balconies and stoups are used successfully to break up the massing of the facade and add articulation and activation to the street With each floor Within each floor of each bay rather than stepping down the brick at the recess as proposed While the Sumter and Franklin intersection had previously shown a restaurant space This has been modified to live workspace for logistical reasons The live workspace provides storefront opportunities that will provide a nice transition from commercial to residential along this part of Sumter Street The residential frontages along the street have stoups and direct access to the sidewalk as recommended The brick is brought up to the second floor to emphasize the corners of the buildings The Scott Street elevation will need to be reviewed. The staff recommendation Is for deferral of the request primarily to address the Sumter Street garage frontage as well Staff recommends addressing the following prior to approval That the brick be expanded on the Main Street facade bays as recommended in the staff markup a Complete elevation for Scott Street be provided Venetration calculations for street-facing elevations be provided Windows window details and sections and material details and cut sheets be provided Roof mounted utility equipment screening be provided if applicable More information about Main Street entrances be provided and retaining wall sections be provided To better understand how the grade change will affect the pedestrian realm And just for reference, this is a site plan from The May informational presentation for those of you who may not have been here for that This just shows the site plan with the units along the Sumter Street frontage of the parking garage And then this is just a quick diagram where staff is recommending the additional brick on the Main Street Facade and also just where it turns the corner onto the parking lot on the north the north elevation And the applicant is present and actually brought some diagrams for or some some an additional rendering Are you ready for the applicant to come up? That's yeah, that's the conclusion of the staff presentation. Thank you Good afternoon. If you get settled if you could please state your name Yes, my name is Steven Middleton And do you swear to tell the truth in these proceedings? I do And mr. Middleton if you just want if you want to tell me which slides to reference as you're speaking Just let me know if you want the plan or the elevations, etc. I don't want any slides to distract I'm Steve Middleton. I am the president of commonwealth properties commonwealth properties as a developer of this project We're no strangers to the columbia area. We're located in richmond, but we developed four other projects In columbia In the city in the city of columbia. We've developed the vista commons back about 20 years ago, which we still own is down on Jervais street It It still I think gets some of the highest rents in that part of town We recently spent about Three and a half million dollars renovating the interiors and we're working on the clubhouse. So I would encourage any of you to To go by and take a look at it in about a month once the clubhouse is finished if you're interested We We are a development company and also an acquisition company, but we primarily Just one We primarily develop multi luxury multi-family projects throughout the southeast so that's what we specialize in This project as lucinda said is of 250 luxury apartment units i'll reiterate as I said earlier During the informational presentation that this is not a student housing project We specifically design our leasing criteria both here and down at vista commons To exclude undergraduate students. We would embrace any graduate students that they want to come but our typical demographic mix for Our residents is anywhere from recent graduates to graduate students if we're near a university Young professionals older professionals Um divorced folks Empty nesters retirees. So it's really the whole gambit of of folks that you might find who who are I guess A now known as renters by choice um We would expect this project. I think to to be One of the nicest if not the nicest one in the columbia area and get uh rents I hope not on wood that um that would reflect that Uh We started work on the project about uh a year ago And spent the first several months just trying to understand what the development hurdles might be And they are numerous on this site. Um, which is something that we've Embraced We spent quite a bit of time working through a variety of site plans and different Building designs until we came up with um What we would call a preliminary vision concept We then set out to meet with the folks at Cotton town Umwood park and the downtown coalition. So we sent those plans out to them Had zoom meetings or in-person meetings either with the neighborhood whoever was interested in the in tuning in Or or the neighborhood representatives. Um, and I think those meetings went generally well I will um Gladly the lack of protest signs behind me. Um We then uh took that information and gave an informal presentation to y'all. I think it was a couple months ago distilled all that uh feedback that we got um and uh And Attempted to refine our design to address those questions and comments and they really kind of at that point in time I think very good I came down to three main issues one was traffic one was parking And the third was um, just the architectural style of the buildings So I think we the architectural style has changed. It's still kind of in keeping with the craftsman style of the surrounding historic neighborhoods To the extent of the three-story building can be we've increased the I guess fenestration storefront look on the corners They're particularly at franklin and sumpter to give it more of a Commercial feel there and in fact those units along right there. Yeah Along that face franklin Or what we call live work units so they can serve Either a commercial function or a residential function or a combination of the two where someone might have a Real estate office up front and live in the back so they're sort of a residential commercial flex space if you will We also commissioned the traffic and parking study We got that back probably a month ago gave it to South Carolina dot and to the city traffic engineer From a parking standpoint it shows that our parking which Meets the current zoning Guidelines and exceeds the new zoning ordinance guidelines Exceeds what we need according to the urban landness to in the parking study by about 20% So and based upon our experience it's it's more than adequate for what we would believe the parking needs to be of our residents Last thing we want to do is to build apartments where people You know can park their vehicle because they will not be long-term residents From a traffic standpoint We got comments back from the DOT Who objected to our two entrances onto main street? So we had to change that to one entrance which Wiped out a little bit of parking caused us to redesign some of the parking up front and also requested that we Repave and restrike the two northbound lanes of main street From Elmwood to river In in order to get access to main street So we're still talking to DT DOT about that requirement, but I suspect they'll win So then we I think we our current efforts Really addressed most of the feedback that we got from the neighborhood and With little that we got back from y'all from our informational presentation And some of the some of the concerns that we got back from the city during our meetings with them and be happy to kind of walk through The staff recommendations and address those we had a little bit of a misunderstanding on my part relative to what was necessary To make a complete submission. So we were a little tardy in getting all of this information in But but with respect to brick being expanded on the main street facade we have now As of today done that and submitted that To the staff that is that's not an issue for us to do that I think we have now provided a complete elevation for scott street. It is similar to the other elevations Finistration calculations for the street facing elevations. I believe are being done if they have not already been done As have windowed details and sections roof mounted utility equipment All of our hvc units will be located on the roof They're located in the middle of the building and will be invisible from the street level So they'll be they'll be hidden either by parapets or just by virtue of their location in the middle of the buildings We we typically locate those over top of the corridor that runs down the middle of the building so that the top four unit doesn't have Hvc units buzzing away over top of them More information about main street entrances. I think what staff is referring to there is entrances into the leasing office and the co-working space the bike shop and the pet spot Along main street we would provide a main entrance into The leasing office right at the corner of the building there next to the surface parking And then we would have two or three other entrances along main street from the sidewalk Into the buildings to those spaces, although They are not commercial spaces that are generally open to the public So most of the entry most of the use of those spaces would be from folks who live there In the project But we'll say too. I'll back up a little bit. I skipped over maybe in my In my rush to describe more of the amenity package So along main street there we have a leasing office and a co-working space. We've started including a co-working space into our Into our amenity package where folks from Um From the project it's like a gather or a we workspace can come in this sort of a communal area They can meet with folks from the outside as a conference room a coffee bar that sort of thing There is about a 3 000 square foot fitness center that we spend about 120 000 on Fitness equipment on so it's quite quite well decked out We have a pet spa for people who want to groom their pets We have a bike shop a bike repair shop area that has Bike storage as well as an area to repair bicycles Then up on the top floor. We have a rooftop club room. That's about 1500 square feet with a Similarly sized rooftop deck that would look over top the pool courtyard as well as have views of the downtown central business district the courtyard on the Right side of the screen is the pool courtyard. We call it the active courtyard. It has a swimming pool Which also features a swimming heated swimming place spot area We have an outdoor kitchen area there. We have cabanas An in-water lounge area lounge chairs sun deck hammocks And then on the left hand side is what we call the chill courtyard Which would feature an outdoor yoga exercise area Maybe a putting green bachi ball a corn hole Some grills generally a little more relaxed and quieter area there for our residents The one area that I think we we have difficulty accommodating Staffs requests is with is probably the one that they're most concerned about is the location of the parking garage there along sumpter and you can see in this in this site plan The big rectangular box in the middle, which is the parking deck and Going towards main street towards the bottom of the screen are units that line the parking deck Those used to be on the top side lining sumpter There's about a 16 foot grade change from one end of that parking deck to the other There's about a 30 foot grade change from the southwest corner at Scott and Main street to the northeast corner at Sumpter and Franklin. So there's quite a bit of topo there to deal with And we're forced because of the street grades there to deal with that 16 feet as it sits on On sumpter we you know, we can Internally we can manipulate the grades but along the street here. We're unable to So to the extent we have units that face sumpter They also have to meet handicap accessibility requirements and that grade exceeds what we can do Internally in the building to to meet the handicap accessibility. So that's The primary reason not the only but the primary reason why we flopped those units over to the south side of the garage where we can The bottom side of the garage where we can actually deal with the With the grades there on site the The package that you have that you saw was embarrassingly just sort of the Naked end of the garage and We fully intended and intend to do to do more with that to make it a little more present a little more presentable You know there it is and And pedestrian friendly so our idea is to create us a linear park along that face of the garage That would have a series of little pocket parks That would capture people walking up and down Sumpter there adults we would brick the bottom part of it Put some landscaping benches sidewalks paver areas along there to invite folks to use that area as A spot to relax and enjoy the street level Interaction on sumpter street there If you have those the little handout, maybe yeah Single sheet of paper hand out there. I think is a better representation of what we are attempting to do there You know, we're trying to dress up what is a garage and make it look a little more like a building But certainly not offensive as a as a parking garage might be And invite folks in two or three areas or three or four areas to To use that space to relax as I said Um The architect said if we have to move the garage, it's like throwing a hand grenade into the site plan In the project at this point and um, and I don't say that as an excuse But we have been working on it for quite some time and we have gotten quite a bit of feedback from the neighborhoods And the staff that we've attempted to incorporate so It's not something I would relish is restarting. I'm starting over on at this at this point in time. So I'm out. That's all the talking I got Madam chair, could I make a comment? Yes. Um, I was going to ask to just If staff had any comment for us before we start for some of the information that was provided since materials were received I know you kind of he's going through this bulleted list of things that have either been provided Since then so can you give us some feedback on that? I mean the only thing I guess that uh, I would say is that typically Most of the bulleted items on the recommendations would be Fine with deferring to staff But since there was the big issue about the units on Sumter street, that was the primary reason for the recommend to defer Um, so the other things could you know could be handled by staff But that one issue was something that was considered significant enough to Um to warrant the recommendation to defer I mean for our part, we're certainly comfortable working with staff to get the you know the the first Six or seven issues resolved. I think You know and what happens along the face of the parking deck, I'd be happy to work with staff as well moving the parking deck is I'm not drawing a line in the sand or anything. Don't misunderstand me, but that's a that's a much bigger deal Okay, I'm open it up to the drc commissioners So first of all, thank you so much for your hard work in meeting Some of the original comments that you got I was not part of that But I think obviously I can see that you've put a lot of work into it I think the part that's missing a bit for me and not that I don't trust staff to handle it is There's not a lot of definition at least in what I have about what the materials are There's not a lot of there's nothing called out about what these materials are I understand that the previous submission was a little more Detailed more a little more complicated and that y'all simplified that which I think is is good Um, but I think that we definitely need a little bit more detail I think context is particularly important when when submitting this type of information. So Um, the site plan is not even shown like on the aerial to know the What the impact of the garage for instance is on the Areas across the street So I did some of that research myself and I've walked, you know, up and down center along those wonderful new things that we have along center But I think it's real important that it's not just about how this garage looks But how it impacts that pedestrian experience And thank you so much for bringing this new rendering because that helps a lot in terms of some of the comments that I was going to make about having no articulation whatsoever and And and that you looks like you're providing some of that but again, I think it goes back to and and I appreciate that moving it At this juncture and understanding parking garages and understanding this the grade change I understand it has to go somewhere and it's better that it's behind main street instead of on main street But I do think more thorough Investigation needs to be done about how do these pocket parks? I appreciate that. We've got these pocket parks I'm I'm just not sure that I see enough of the information about The the the materials in the context to make me as Um, it's comfortable But that's that's not to say that staff couldn't work with you on those But I think the submission is lacking in terms of the information provided to the ddrc is what I would So in terms of building materials if we're talking specifically about those those would be brick as well as Hardy some sort of cementitious hearty typically known as hearty plank hearty panel We usually sometimes mix the two a hearty panel with board and batten strips and the hearty Plank, but otherwise would be masonry So there's no vinyl on there You know, it's a it's a project that we built to be low maintenance We do use vinyl windows So I can't say there's no vinyl but there's no vinyl siding or no No aluminum wrapped trim or anything like that I guess what I'm saying is and I appreciate some more Comment on that. I just feel like maybe there needs to be more information About the context of this garage and the new detailing that you've put into it And the materials on the garage facade as it also pertains to the materials on the Building the garage facade just so you know, I'm happy to provide you know provide more detail But while we're talking about it is we would use thin brick on that. So it's you know the stuff that kind of I don't want to say glues, but you mortar to the side of the precast garage Concrete that's there and then though the white elements the white columns that you see there would be similar limestone Precast material so it looks very much like limestone and brick right Um the uh plan of the parking garage You have shown elevators each corner. Yeah, correct. That's right. It's not I don't see any positions for elevators likewise for the units themselves Are you planning for elevators in those two? Well, there are three-story buildings And typically in three-story buildings you would not do that but these elevators service those buildings. So Most of the times, you know, you would drive in you if you lived on the third floor you would park on the third floor walk over and You know go right into the hallway direct access from the from the garage into the building on the third floor From the parking garage from the parking garage, right? So the parking garage is connected low appliances from the parking garage into the units pardon I can unload appliances from the parking garage into the top floor of the units Refrigerators Our maintenance we on the appliances so we if you know if if somebody needed a new refrigerator our maintenance guy would Would supply that but yes The easy way for him to do it would be to Pull into the garage take the take the refrigerator put it on the elevator go up to the third floor second floor Go directly from the garage Into the building and wheel it down the hall and into the unit Or if you were bringing your groceries in which would be a more usual thing You could park on the second floor get on the elevator go up to your unit on the fourth floor Whatever it is walk directly into the building at that level. All right one other thing is trash Trash collection. How's that going to work? We have one main trash collection area We hire a group called trash valets different places Different names in different places, but you would take your trash It's in a special trash can that they deliver put it outside your door at eight o'clock at night They come by in the middle of the night pick it up Take it to the trash collection room stick it in the thing it drops down into the Compactor that's down on the bottom floor the compactor packs it And then two or three times a week the maintenance car rolls the compactor Out of the building to the trash pickup area the trash truck comes takes it and dumps it and puts it back So you don't have to ever use the trash room But you can use the trash room if you want to And it isn't basically located right at the corner of the garage Would be the south The south west corner of the garage there Did that did you understand what I did I'm doing adding explanation of that seems like it's going to work The trash rooms stack on top of each other So there's a trash room on each floor and you would just walk to that trash room open them I'm very familiar with it. Yes One last thing um on your elevation you show Steps coming off the unit Um you got separate and you got a little gap between the two um the front steps Uh Right there I I'm not in favor of that idea Um, you know with that gap in between the two but it looks like it's just uh I'm gonna collect trash Unless you got a shrubbery going in there I don't see how that's gonna work It's a minor thing That's something that needs to be addressed You would you would want them to be connected there? Well I'm not suggesting what to do. I'm just saying that It looks awkward It looks like Yeah, too much going on there. We've got that sort of structural column in the middle there So I'm thinking what the architect was attempting to do is keep people from if there were one big wide stoop walking up and Slamming into that because they're looking at their feet. Um we could Be afraid if we planted a bush in there a shrub in there that it wouldn't grow just because it's kind of wedged in there so we could perhaps um separate the The stairs a little Little further and that's two sets of stairs because one goes to the unit on the Right-hand side and one goes to the unit on the left-hand side there And you know in the past we have separated those two units with um a railing Sometimes so that everybody has their own little private front front ports there You know the railing could tie into that but You're not another thing you're missing railings Yeah So we could I mean we could spread we could certainly spread those farther apart that would be They might not line up with the doors. I'm not sure they line up with the doors Right now, but we we can look at that how means And one last thing I notice on the site plan you've got under This area right here is occupied And then in the corner here is occupied Is there going to be a future development uh phase two? I don't know Somebody asked that question. I didn't know the answer. I can't speak for those folks. So it's not part of our plan There is a there is a grassed lot 2314 Where where there's a rectangle there that we have attempted to buy but have been unsuccessful That we designated as a future commercial spot maybe for a little wine and cheese or bodega or some sort of little commercial area but So far we've been unsuccessful in acquiring that I have met with um two of the other property owners just to discuss what we were doing They were Delighted that something was going to happen there So, okay Just asking Thank you Any other commissioners have any comments? I just have a quick question for staff in light of the movement during that We just received and now that we kind of have an opportunity to hear you kind of talk about the project You express concerns with 88 compliance if the residential units were facing some through street So i'm curious in light of that kind of development because I didn't recognize that that's one of the potential issues for the staff You recommended deferral to address the parking garage for facade Short of moving the residential units back to where they were originally is there Another alternative that y'all have discussed at this juncture because i'm just curious what that would be because these are kind of Extreme two extremes. Is there something in the middle that would permit the garage to stay where it is? But kind of fall within the design guidelines at the same time Are you are you asking staff? Yes the alternative. Yeah, I mean I I guess I mean certainly there are probably a number of alternatives. I mean, I think that having certainly screening along a blank parking garage frontage is Sort of You know the last resort right for a blank wall along the street edge. I mean that's that's better than not having the screening Um having units is ideal So I think if there are any alternatives in between there that would certainly be for the applicant to propose To the ddrc. Um if there is a way to get some units or a unit or I don't know. I mean that's that's definitely not something that That we're going to recommend how they solve but I think there's just still concerns that that's just a long stretch of no active frontage So maybe there is another solution between the two that have been presented you know if it wasn't It's just on such a steep grade one of the things we thought about was to use that area as sort of a food truck area Where people you know, we could have a little event pulling the food truck there and people could gather and But it's you know, it's It's it's just not a comfortable grade to Have a park and have a facility at I have a comment. Can you hear me all right? I don't have a button on here. Um Just more of a comment not necessarily a design Comment or anything like that, but just from a market knowledge standpoint the uh the live work units You know, I'd probably like to see more just kind of like traditional retail Live work and the city of columbia just hasn't been extremely successful There are a few very few examples, but the few few examples have not done tremendously well here But I know what you're trying to accomplish there you're moving the units that were originally designed with parking garage Is now facing something up there And just trading them off over there, but just something to consider But then maybe from also a static standpoint on the garage Just consider some sort of a living wall, you know, like a big vine or something like that that's At a height that's manageable, you know, that that may block some of the brick But you know could give a a different appearance than Just parking garage Any other commissioners any other comments? I mean, I just want to say I think this is a very exciting project. I think Of for me, I see I think we've got some information lacking just to have confidence of how things are going to move forward that You know, that's probably a little bit of my concern but Does anybody else have any other follow-up or questions? At this point, okay We encourage those that would like to communicate via email to begin sending in letters and emails You may email coc board meeting at columbia sc.gov or go on the web At public input comm slash coc dvrc dash aug 2021 For those wanting to leave a voicemail or speak live call<PHONE_NUMBER> When prompted, please enter the meeting code 4020 Then press star two to begin leaving a voicemail. If you would like to speak live press star three We will now hear any comments from anyone who is here in person We have one Good afternoon. Hello, please state your name John Scheer Director of cultural resources for historic columbia. Um, I realized and let me just add do you swear to tell the truth? Just like always Mr. Middleton, thank you for you and we applaud the investment in in main street and in columbia And I realized today probably the best thing that I can offer Is probably an epitaph For a building that actually has kind of a remarkable history in columbia's evolution Incidentally during the pandemic historic columbia is responsible for about six months with the work research on this site In preparation for national register nomination that would have or could have yielded significant tax credits Which would have pushed both historic preservation as well as informed new development So what I offer you today really is probably an epitaph for property that for most of you Is the jim war catalac old dealership? but what it really was was The brainchild of charles v both Who was one of columbia's high near? automobile dealers and a moving force in The capital city in the post world war two period he had plenty of experience prior to service in world war two But it was after world war two he came back to columbia and chose to invest in this section of main street He located 22 22 main street his company called mutual motors If you go back on the sumptuous street side today, and you look where it says jim war all of those letters once spelled mutual motors More is very frugal in that when he redid that you can actually see where it said mutual motors This building is a hybrid depression modern mid-century modern masonry structure consisting of a 1949 parts and service garage in a 1951 Plate glass and aluminum frame showroom and company office. It's about 40,000 square feet The preeminent architectural firm of lefay lefay and fair designed it Stands on about a five-acre property as you know This section of main street during the mid 1940s through 1970s evolved from essentially a residential neighborhood into a mixed-use commercial corridor Dominated by automobile sales and service related industries The structure is among the largest dealerships of its time in south canada state capital the mutual motors embodied post world war two era columbians interests in The mainstays of atomic age modernity privately owned transportation and streamlined commercial architectural designs Incorporating contemporary building materials Including of course large expanses of plate glass glass lock and sheet metal I won't go on into any more details other than to say that we were on the cusp of something that I felt Was going to be a remarkable opportunity for redevelopment of this property Through the harnessing of potential tax credits Bailey bill and so forth and we have been Working with the state sort preservation office in this endeavor So I offer you I suppose What it could have been And I wish that historic one we could have been part of this conversation when it was going on We are obviously very excited about revitalizing Our our city in all aspects But we just weren't part of that conversation and so any time we can be we would like to be And incidentally I don't really have much more to say I don't think there is much more to say The design is something that's impressive. You put a lot of work into it But I just wanted to make sure that the record indicated what we are losing in the process Thank you very much for your time Not sure if there's any follow-up to that. Is there any other public who wishes to speak? Who signed any comments received in writing? At this time we have one email and I'll go ahead and read that now It says good afternoon question Are these apartments going to be more for normal working people like myself or students? We have way too many apartments that we as working adults cannot access Will these apartments be reasonably priced or section 8 housing or similar housing programs such as that? I ask this because columbia has become a city just catering to college students an apartment so outrageous in price and constant rent increases You either have a nice place to live but can't afford it or a slum apartment with needles on the ground Thank you. Wanda M. Shearer And that is the only comment we have in writing at this time any voicemails received No, we do not have any voicemails Give me a refresher staff. Do we give anybody a chance to comment on what's been received or Where are we at? Oh, here we go. Thank you. Right on cue The applicant can have five minutes if you like to respond to any of the comments, which would be I think the email received If you so desire well, yes, uh with respect to this Historic nature of the jim war cadillac building we did look at attempting to Incorporate that into the design when we first got started on this and It's situated right in the middle of the site So it's it's just very difficult to work with in terms of incorporating it into the overall project Obviously, we could have we'd love to take advantage of the of the tax credits that are available for that But we were unable to figure out a way to do that With respect to section 8 housing, that's not what we're about I mean, there's a place for that. There's a need for that. That's not what we do Likewise with student housing. There's a place for that and a need for that, but that's not what we do That's a special design of special niche of the multifamily market and We would not as I said earlier We would not reach out to students and specifically design our leasing criteria to try to exclude them to the extent we can in accordance with fair housing Thank you Any follow-up questions from any of the commissioners? All right at this point I'll open the floor for a motion I'm sorry with someone else speaking Okay All right, so based upon the testimony provided the email comments from the community the exhibits presented today A move to defer the provision of a certificate of design approval for new construction to allow for further consideration of the further design Following design elements and I recognize that some of this was conceded to earlier but just for the sake of completeness The items to be addressed during this defer would include The break expansion on main on the main street facade The consideration and analysis of a complete elevation for scott street, which was provided An evaluation of the fenestration calculations for street facing elevations Consideration of the window details and sections materials and cut sheets, which will be provided The roof mounted utility equipment to be provided As well as the consideration of more information regarding the main street entrances as well as information pertaining to the retaining wall sections To be provided and this also takes into consideration the guidelines for the northman quarter design district All right, we have a second And did everybody clearly hear the motion I just moved forward but staff did y'all clearly hear that Was pretty much a motion to just defer until all these items were addressed with listing listing all those Yes, and I think uh, mr. Johnson tried to note when sun items had been provided and what was still Waiting for receipt If that helps, thank you, you're welcome All right, so we have a motion in a second I'm sorry quick question does do we need to also mention The bull did primarily to address the thumpster sumter street garage facade is one of the Okay, and I was that was that part of the motion I couldn't hear the first part I think I did skip that so let me slightly amend the motion to also consider Addressing the sumter street barrage facade as well. Is that sufficient? Just restating to make sure all the points here have been included Mr. Broom, do you still second the amended motion? Mr. Broom. Yes Ms. Brannum. Yes. Ms. Fuller-Wilt. Yes. Ms. Jacob. Yes. Ms. Johnson. Yes. Mr. Wolff. Yes And mr. Baker. Yes the motion passes This is 1808 kataba street It's a request for a certificate of design approval for exterior changes And for preliminary certification for the Bailey bill within the Wales garden architectural conservation district The applicant came before the dvrc in august 2020 with a number of proposed changes to the house including alterations to the side additions The addition of a second driveway and carport at the left side of the house The removal of a non-original bay on the front of the house And painting the non-original brick veneer The requests were approved by ddrc and work related to that initial application has since begun The current application is for wholesale window replacement and replacement of the front door and surround The applicant has also submitted an application for the Bailey bill Most of the scope proposed for the property as listed on the Bailey bill application Is in keeping with district and Bailey bill guidelines However, the request to replace all windows and the door surround is not in keeping with either the district or Bailey bill standards Looking a little bit at the history of the house itself 1808 kataba street is one of the earliest homes Built within the neighborhood with a 1916 construction date It was designed by jay caroll johnson and during his partnership with urkhart They have the firm of urkhart and johnson Both architects were prominent local architects in their own right And together designed a number of buildings throughout south carolina Including the number of school buildings jay caroll johnson himself Became the university of south carolina's resident architect in 1944 Was also responsible for the design of many buildings on that campus from the 1920s into the 1950s Johnson was also known for his residential architecture designing over 120 houses during his career And based on research done by historic columbia We can confirm that at least six houses were designed within will's garden That were either done by jay caroll johnson himself or with partnership with urkhart This particular house has similarities with other johnson design homes Such as the form towering chimneys Use of six of our one windows the door surround detailed and classically detailed covered entry Intact historic features include windows chimneys front door surrounds covered entry the front dormer The overall historic form is also discernible And the brick veneer was added likely in the 1940s And interestingly the wood siding that was the original cladding on the house is still intact Beneath that veneer um looking at precedent for allowing for Wholesale window replacement staff researched files for requests for wholesale window replacement and wales garden And found no cases where it was allowed for contributing structure There are two instances that staff found Where a wholesale replacement of historic windows was requested One was at 144 saluta, which was denied by the ddrc Another was at 203 saluta Where wholesale replacement was denied, but specific windows were allowed for replacement Or where they were found to be non-original or minimally visible Also want to note that highly deteriorated Or non repairable windows and not original or non historic windows are always permitted for replacement And many of these instances are handled at staff level rather than requiring ddrc review as part of our process Looking at the guidelines for doors They state retain and repair historic door openings doors screen doors Trim and details such as transoms side lights Pediments and hoods where they contribute to the architectural character of the building The current door itself appears to be a replacement However, the surround including the transom and side lights are original and contribute to the architectural character of the house The side lights and transom include diamond patterned leaded glass tracery Which can be found in other johnson designed homes As well as other colonial revival style homes within this district While some glass and lead cane does need repair Staff has found that the surround is in repairable condition and per the guidelines should be retained and repaired Looking at windows the guidelines state when technically and economically feasible repair of deteriorated or damaged windows Shall be preferred over replacement As well as if wholesale replacement is found to be necessary either match the original unit or substitute a unit appropriate to the period of significance for the home Staff has found Based on their evaluation that all windows are in repairable condition and thus replacement is not found to be necessary While the windows likely need repairs to make them operable The windows staff evaluated were intact Without rot and with weights still in place Staff didn't note any deterioration that would require replacement. It's always happy to reevaluate Deterioration is found over the course of renovations As stated in the principles for windows windows are a significant character defining feature of any structure Original windows were constructed so that individual components could be repaired instead of requiring wholesale replacement If one piece rots or breaks included in your packets staff provided photos of repaired historic windows that were In fairly poor condition much worse than seen in this home That shows that repair of historic windows is possible and can be done to a high level Looking at the bailey bill standards Standard four states distinctive features finishes and construction techniques Or examples of craft craftsmanship that characterize a property should be preserved The windows and door surround are distinctive historic features that are in keeping with the character architectural style of the house And consistent with features found in other johnson designed homes Removal of these features is not in keeping with the standard Standard five also states that deteriorated historic features shall be repaired rather than replaced And where severity of deterioration requires replacement the new should match the old As previously noted staff has not seen any deterioration in the windows or the door surround that would necessitate replacement Repairing sorry replacing them rather than repairing is not in keeping with this standard The front door itself as stated previously is a replacement And the door chosen to replace it should correspond to design with the side lights and surround To be architecturally appropriate Um also to note preservation is about much more than aesthetics or how things look Is about protecting historic character including features and materials These features and materials were made to be repaired and as such last decades longer than modern materials The windows on this house have lasted a hundred years and could easily last another hundred with a little care and minor repairs So for staff recommendation staff finds that the request for wholesale window replacement and replacement of the front door surround is not in keeping with section 17 698 of the city ordinance or section seven of the will's garden architectural conservation district design guidelines and recommends denial of the request for a certificate of design approval Um and related to the bailey bill staff finds that the project as proposed at 1808 katawa does not comply with section 17 698 of the city ordinance staff can only recommend granting preliminary Certification for the bailey bill if the request to replace the windows and doors around is withdrawn or denied as listed in the following conditions The request To replace the windows or doors around be withdrawn or denied The replacement front door be reviewed and approved by staff prior to purchase The project meeting are exceeding 20 investment threshold requirements All work meeting the standards for work as outlined in 17 698 and all other details deferred staff any questions for staff I have one question Is is the office area off to the left of the front of the house Part of the original structure as well. It is not okay, so that Those windows would not be under the same. They are not and those were already approved for replacement. Okay, great Any other commissioners any questions for staff at this point? Uh, is the applicant present or someone want to speak on the behalf?  Hey, um, my name is tim hance. I'm a local architect here in colombia Okay, and do you swear to tell the truth in this receding? I do. Thank you. So, um We started this project last year Great couple moving here from charlotte the carry sellers and ellen sarah seller And so nice young couple Two small babies twins And they're just transferring here to colombia very jobs or his job House is a great house and I really agree with almost all of everything That rachel has been talking about because we've had lots of conversation back and forth and everything The uh when we came before When I first started looking at the house and just kind of getting a feel for it and everything I noticed that Something was interesting about the brick on the house the offsets were different I couldn't figure out why at first. I couldn't figure out why at first and after a little bit of study and thought I thought I think this house was veneered It was a wood-sided house But it was veneered at some point and I've been doing it for 25 almost 30 years and this is the first one I've seen in Wells garden chanded around town that's actually had a veneer put on So I called Rachel And we talked about it and she said uh, I said if it is that way Would we have the opportunity to paint the brick As a choice because that was one of them the quest from the owner when they were looking at the house And so uh, she said I have to get back so she did And and she called me later and she said We agree. We looked at the sandborn maps and 1916 date and what was on the house and And so yes, we agree that the brick was added We will let you paint it. We've never done that before town in the city of columbia We're not allowed that so I would like to present it. Amy wants me to present it So we don't really mind confused and all the other people we've told we can't paint the brick So I said that's great. I don't like to cause any problems. Let's go So we did And that was our first approval back in last august that we got approval for the What the office on the left and the windows We wanted to tear off the old looking bay that somebody had added probably in the 50s or 60s that didn't go with the house I wanted to kind of take the house back To what it kind of originally was So we talked through that got through all the approval process and things like that. Everybody said okay, let's go So a contractor filed his permit Took a while to get everything in order and everything that got the permit issue started the renovation And then it was like we got to get a baby Certification So we stopped and said rachel why didn't we do that before I don't know why we didn't do that before but let's get that going So we started and got the certification And in the meantime ellen asked me she's like Tim if we Got the approval to paint the brick Would we have an option to start the discussion with them about the windows? Because I would like to have all the windows on my house would be the same So when people look at them It's not a seven old windows or six old windows and I said we certainly could have the conversation. I said let me propose it to them We've got to go in for the recertification the first preliminary part of the daily bill And that will make that a part of it And she said well while we're asking for that and we asked for the front door too I said, okay. We'll ask for the front door too I said, let me think about that a minute and all and so that's the communication that rachel and i've had What's what's interesting about this house to me is and I added these photos of richard's what she's got up there now So the house was a Wood-sided house At some point somebody came to mr. Mrs. So-and-so and said rick it's the world's greatest thing cover over your siding and I guess you won't have any more maintenance or anything like that The house originally and this the two photos are what we peel back on the back of the house And that's just where we've been doing our addition work and things like that See there's about a six and a half to seven inch band that went around the original windows And they did something which I thought was a little clever When you've been near a house in new construction, we offset an inch and a half from the framing We have an airspace gap in there and then we put the the brick on which is about three and a half inches To fill that gap.  We put it around the frame of the window That's what they did They came into this if you look at the little trance on one of the top there you'll see a little rolled edge That rolled edge is the brick mold that they added to the units To conceal the gap of where they added the brick veneer on the house So that brought the question in my mind. Well, if the one has been modified enough, they're not original The sash is original but the the brick mold is not original And it's varied and it's changed from what the original intent was Now in architects we look at this house and we call this a three-bay house The reason we call it a three-bay house is because you have the three windows So the facade is being divided by five or seven. It's three That's still intact with the one that's in the doors and things like that So the question for us was Would we have an opportunity to have a conversation of whether it's feasible or not to discuss Replacing the windows with new units that are insulated And things like that While we're doing what we're doing to the house, I want to back up just a second to tell you Since I've been doing this for so long everybody probably at some point has renovated something Whether it's just painting the room or tearing down something or adding on to something So my opinion of renovation has changed a little bit And luckily I found a client that said I love this So on this house because you have small children We decided to take we decided to take the inside all the way down to the frame I don't know the house that I've worked on in 25 years But we've taken the entire inside down to the entire frame Reason for that is the owners wanted to remove all of the knob and tube wiring All of the lead babes paint all of the Plumbing All of the electrical system that has been patched on and a lot of people don't realize when we renovate houses It may not be a total renovation. It may be attached to what's there So not a tube wiring is still valid and the electrician will come in and he'll update the wiring for the addition But he connects back to it Almost every one of these houses has an old federal specific panel of almost a hundred percent of the time federal pacific went out of business because their Breakers quit working. They look at what the word is spongy And so they they went into bankruptcy So usually you find a house with a federal pacific panel under down in a closet You can't do them in closets anymore. And then maybe there's some sort of sub panel off of that That they've upgraded it to a 200 ounce service This house had that Plumbing on a house starts out anywhere from galvanized, which is what you see when you have reduced water pressure It fills in with corrosion on the inside Copper which pits after about 30 years Cpvc was a product we used Didn't see any polybutylene. That was a temporary product And then um and now we use a pex topping all of this stuff is being stripped out of the house And it's being taken down to the end of the inside to the frame Um Coincidentally, you know the house is in great shape old houses of this era actually had a type of framing system called balloon framing Today when we construct we use a system called platform framing The reason they use balloon framing back then is the 2x4 goes from the first floor all the way to the top of the second floor It's almost 20 feet long The reason it's done that way is because that's back with wood was drawn straighter and it's more solid And so you could actually buy a piece of wood that would go 20 feet long Today we do nine foot 10 foot we split we kind of splice it as it goes up So i'm kind of giving you the background of this kind of what they wanted to do to make the house safe and just have it Totally renovated on the inside These houses don't have any insulation if they have any at all us a little bit of the attic space But you have a 4,000 square foot house with no insulation in the wall No insulation in the floors and a little bit in there We've improved dramatically on spray foam installations And so we can take a 4,000 square foot house today spray foam it and come away with a hundred and thirty five dollar a month power A 4,000 square foot with no insulation like this You could easily have an 800 dollar a month power though. That's money will spin We've got good luck with sealing crawl spaces here that helps people with allergies and things like that. You tell me if i'm talking to you The staff will tell us i'm sure I keep going And so that's how invasive they are with taking this down to making it correct There's a mom and a little kids and things like that You know, she just wants everything she wants the inside to be a new house But he wants it a little old on the outside so um That was kind of the the path we took to asking Do we have to have or or because of the addition of the veneer And the cause of the addition of the brick molding which is not original to the house Is there enough there that we still have to go by that requirement of reusing the windows that are existing Amy and I have had this conversation a thousand times probably Through the years we always have this conversation usually with what they call because I want to replace one as I always say the same thing We can't why because of Amy. Who's Amy? Amy Moore Would you like Amy Moore's number? That's usually the way the conversation goes And they knew this when they when they called the house anything too So there's not anything that's hidden or anything like that But she wanted me to bring the questions y'all and have a back and forth discussion based on what we've discovered as we've been feeling this back The probably the one thing that I disagree with um with a lot of old houses is um with racial and Amy is You can Go in and renovate any window. You can go and strip it down. You can do all the paint peeling I don't have a lot of guys that do that anymore. So it's pretty expensive. That's a real specialized market. There's just not 25 people that want to go out there and we have a window The last one I did was on water read around the corner from this house And we figured it cost as much to we have that window that would buy a nice marvin or pellar Anderson And we actually ended up because somebody had in that particular project because old units have been used in one area from the 90s that were falling apart the original ones so Amy and them let me and Rachel them let me We rebuild the ones up top and add the new ones down below And so you just have to be real careful with that because you want it to when you get through with spending this amount of money and everything you want it all to look right So um, so that is, you know the option that but it is expensive to rehab this unit and then the I'm sorry, and then the one thing that goes over for that is um Actually spend all this money to rehab this unit and it's looking great Then you have two options at that point if you want any sort of thermal bag You can add a interior storm one of what not many people do Um, I I've yet to have somebody do an interior storm one or the guy goes and buys a $50 Metal storm one and he slaps it up on the new one that's just been renovated. So you can't see it All right. Well, unfortunately, I think your time is up in a moment. Um, it is the beaver has gone off There are many people I will open it up to any questions from commissioners Well, first of all Tim, thank you so much for the lesson in architectural construction because I really appreciated that um, no, I really did um And and I I think that I really appreciate um the attempt to Um uncover the of what the the history of this building and how it came to be What what I don't see is a correlation between How it evolved and how it has in any way Taking the window in a different direction other than its original historic condition, right? It may have added to it, but it didn't really change the window so, um I feel like it sounds to me like and I guess it's a question to staff that even if even if we were to approve it The bailey bill would not allow it and so thereby there would be no bailey bill credits Available to this client. So the argument about the money being spent may be Determined, I don't know. I'm not certainly not gonna But you did bring up the value of the cost of the windows and that sort of thing. So I don't know that there was a question in there, but that's Before we go further Madam chair, I'm not sure that I heard that that tim was sworn in Was thank you. I missed it. I just wanted to double check that Thank you You mean we have to start over? I think um, I mean I I'm not Feeling like I'm finding any evidence to support why these windows need to be replaced Other than correlating it to other initiatives going on in the building. So I'm I'm struggling with that But I will open it up to other commissioners. Um, I'm not struggling with it It's kind of clear to me that they and I appreciate your attempt to Do, you know To ask and have a conversation But to me it's clear that that the windows need to stay in their historic form You know despite what you mentioned about the brick molding And certainly the the lights around the front door Absolutely, if you took those out, it would be Irreplaceable so And I think you and the owners understand that but so that's just my she said So can I ask a quick question really quick a question really quickly? So we talked about the windows. We talked about The surround for the door. Are you also looking to replace the door though as well? Yes, so, uh, when I the terms surround, we're not placing the columns in the cutlery So we're actually talking about the actual door and the side lights and trans Okay, so that's the side lights and the transom of what we were asking And I didn't get into that yet, but I was just gonna ask and I can do it real quickly Can I just ask clarification? Did staff say earlier that that had been replaced before? The front door itself appears to be replaced. All right. Sorry. Yeah So you want to ask a quick question first? No, absolutely So I'm gonna come back to the ones that say But on the front door I agree right with Rachel about the the sizing of the side lights and the transom of the two in the square And each one that she mentioned in the report I went by and looked at them and took photographs of them So you see the you know, the little squares on the top corner the transom is the piece at the top You know the side lights on the side what I what I question in my mind is I couldn't find one that had to letting class Everyone that they have done that was noted in the report has wooden mullions And wooden patterns So I thought well, which came first this Did somebody like this door with with let it glass? I said, oh, I gotta go and take out but you can pop out the side lights and the transom And was it would there at one point? Which one came first the door that we know is not original or the shape we I agree with her that it is the same shape What I'm questioning is the let it glass. I haven't found anything at this age yet where they've used the let it glass The other side of that is As a mom with small kids the word the lead doesn't mean need to come up Because of the lead-based paint the lead-based came in all the stuff is done where you can Get up there and pick on and stuff like that can be just potential hazard to the kid So I'm not questioning the actual shape of them I'm questioning the let it part The let it part then makes me wonder well if it was done after the fact just the letting Because the other four or five that were listed around town that he did have very similar for porticoes Have almost the same type Divisions of stuff, but they're not let it. They're all wooden Well, maybe this one was just very special and they went with the letter Maybe unless you have proof that it wasn't and that's what I don't know I mean, I don't I don't know if that's original to it or not Rachel I do agree that the door Itself is not original. So that's what kind of brought that up For the door and then hence Her question to me was well, can I take the unit out and do a door That is in keeping with the style of the home But have more glass in it so that you don't have the little tiny four inch side lights on the sides And you end up with a glass door that looks more like into the house And I would just note the the lead came on the Side lights and transom is different than what you see on the door itself I can't it's It seems the door itself seems Like the lead is not it's not a true Let it last window cheaper version. Yes Yeah, whereas the the um the lead came on the the side lights and transom is is clearly older So the door was likely replaced to match the lead and the glass that's original I believe so and and it and that could have been that direction. I just can't find one more It's very consistent about pattern It's very consistent about the shaping, but they're all wooden Everyone on this So that was my question. That's why that's the only thing we just Commissioner johnson did that help clarify your question. Um, I think so. So basically we're looking at three different part It sounds like it that way. So I just wanted to make sure I know there's some opinions on whether the transom inside lights are original not original, but Are leaded but I just wanted to make sure that we were talking about three different things because we didn't discuss the door during the presentation So I wanted to make that clear And I have one other thing Amy What if we don't take the What if we don't what if we don't go for the later bill we qualify the further beta bill because we're an overlay district And so next there's some there That if you don't And what if we choose not to choose the beta bill as a part of it? How does that affect? I didn't know how to answer that question. Well, I'm sure we have an answer So that about staff response right so based on staff's evaluation You know I related the window changes and the door changes to both the guidelines themselves And the baili bill standards right and found that it met neither one It I come at it that changing out the windows and the door did not meet either the design guidelines or the baili bill standards But what if we didn't do The the design guidelines for the neighborhood would still apply Right, you still have to be in compliance with the design guidelines Whether you take the baili bill funding or not, but doesn't that go through a different process when you read the guidelines you still come to the same committee here. No, no, no, no But you go through kind of a different way process when you start looking at the guidelines In the guidelines you do allow You need to do the replacement you have to go to a number count and say how many there You know you replace is it more than 50% of the value or more to more than 50% of the units in the house Oh staff can respond to that. Yeah, that's listed in the evaluation. Okay. Thank you Yeah, so there's to me there's and what I've always understood is you have the baili bill You automatically qualify for the process of going through the baili bill because you're in a landmark or overlay district like that I didn't know how to answer the question of what if you don't go for the baili bill Then I'm gathering you have to submit whatever materials are required for the design guidelines Then you go to just the the guideline side of the thing versus the baili bill side of the requirements Correct. So when you're applying for the baili bill as as I have in the evaluation You look at the design guidelines for the district if it's in a district and you look at the standards for the baili bill So both apply to a project If you're not applying for the baili bill, you look at the design guidelines So it's it's all in the evaluation I have listed out the windows and the in the door of the guidelines that are specific To this project because there are exterior changes, right? So I have one other thing We have a permit that says we can replace the windows We were issued a building permit for that I think that was done in error correct Yes, yes, I was told by the contractor But our permit says we can replace the windows and have Yes, a certificate of design approval would have to be written to allow for window replacement and it was not so That's why I'm here. I want to have a I want to have a conversation on the dialogue Can I ask that for questions? Just and I'm sorry. I'm just like carpet on this, but I just want to make sure that I truly understand So for purposes of fashioning emotions that aren't used to do so later Can you I'm sorry. Can you hear me? I can't. Yeah. Can you hear me? Yeah, okay. I apologize. I'm not used to masking and using microphones at the same time um, so hypothetically if I Personally believe that the windows don't meet the design guidelines The transom and the sidelines don't meet the guidelines But the door could be replaced because it was not original to begin with Could I parcel out those three different things and could I potentially fashion a vote in that manner to permit and replace the door? But excluding the other two pieces Yes, yes, I think I mentioned those in my recommendation. I think they are all listed there She does. Okay. I was just making sure because the recommendations didn't say it said doors around But to me there was the door and the turn the transom was different. So I was just making sure I understood that Okay, thank you and just to clarify today today's conversation that we're having with you is about this specific item so the question specifically is Is the Baileyville request And so I'm declaring that five commissioners because I know you've kind of gone down a lot of different avenues But I want to get well, we're doing one. We're going to do the one that's here with the three Kind of facets to it. So I just want to clarify that Right. The request is for the exterior changes being the wholesale replacement of the windows The replacement of the door and the door surround and then also applying for the Baileyville. Okay I'm sorry. I don't I'm not I'm not trying to be defensive, but I'm trying to be here To answer some questions. Oh, no, definitely. I was going to make sure we know what we're answering. I agree with you on the one Okay, one has some subcategories. Sure. I said that's what I'm now. Okay. I'm not trying to You know, I want to have a dialogue about it because it does come up a lot with the projects It's it's one of the biggest ones. That's why we have some conversations about it Right. Oh, I know these are hot topics And so, you know, uh, I didn't actually realize that we did till the contract was told me That his permit said the replacement of the windows What do we do there? So there are some things that's why we have a good relationship of going back and forth and communicating and talking And things like that because we've been doing it for 20 years Um, but if something keeps coming up and somebody says, well, we were granted to paint it and that's never happened before And and come on paint the brick because it's not original facade Then You know, it's it's that's different than the windows But that the facade is different than the windows the windows were original when you look at the window that you start You know, there's a window. There's a surround. There's a jam. There's a sale And all that stuff and I really appreciate you defending the the concept and but I but I do agree that these are two separate items It's it's the Bailey bill is a separate consideration from actually meeting the design guidelines and the way to design Audio What I didn't understand and what I didn't realize is what what triggers what And and so The Bailey bill section is in the city. Yeah, so it's in the city And the guidelines are over here. I understand What I didn't know and what I was trying to figure out There's one piggyback off the other Or is one related to the tax credit deductions Which the Bailey bill is related to the tax credit deductions What it sounds like to me is that if a person opts not to do the Bailey bill Then they still have to meet the guidelines of the wells garden section Correct, correct. And I like that. I don't know that it says it that clearly from reading them But that's what I'm interpreting now from what I'm hearing you say Any other questions from commissioners before we move on to any public comment? Are you good? okay We encourage those that would like to communicate via email to begin sending in letters and emails to coc board meeting at Columbia sc.gov or on the web at public input.com slash coc dvrc Hyphen a u g 2021 For those wanting to leave a voicemail or speak live call<PHONE_NUMBER> When prompted please enter the meeting code 4020 Then press star two to begin leaving the voicemail if you would like to speak live press star three So we'll now hear any comments from anyone here in person How about any comments received in writing? You could ask them if they would like to speak they're on Oh, do we well is there somebody on the phone or yeah? So yeah, the applicants would need to unmute themselves so that the audio can come through if they'd like to speak There we go I think bakari wanted to speak on our behalf Okay, if this is the applicant first can you please state your name? This is bakari sellers I we're just very thankful and grateful for And hold on just a second sir. Let me just finish. That's good state your name And do you swear to tell the truth in this proceeding? Bakari sellers and yes, okay. Thank you. I do No, we just we want to thank you guys for your time. We want to thank simp for his presentation today We would remark that There still are a great deal of incans. He's not just for myself, but for other homeowners who may be coming into the neighborhood Regarding what is allowed Regarding the coupling or decoupling of the baili bill Versus the guidelines that hasn't been clear us throughout the process and Even after today, it's not clear. So regardless of the ruling one makes on our home We hope for the future of the neighborhood and people coming before the board that the rules rules and guidelines become clearer a home Like ours that has gone through So many iterations and changes For one to say you want to maintain a historical facade on one hand But not on the next Reaks of inconsistency But we understand that that's precedent in the way that it's been going We just hope going forward As we put a great deal of value into this home. This is our forever home That for individuals coming before the board next time maybe not for us Maybe we do a better job of educating constituents about the process We add clarity and consistency in the process And we just make sure it's pleasant. I can't say that it has been the most pleasant process But we just want to say thank you Tim. You've done an outstanding job We respect the committee and your decision and we look forward to it. We look forward to being productive and tax paying good citizens of The wells garden area since It appears that there was some confusion leading up to this presentation today I mean, is there anything that we need to defer to consider before Making the final ruling because I don't want to render a decision if the applicants don't feel as though that they've had a chance to Fully suss out the rules and the guidelines. So I'm just curious if that would be something that we would consider in this instance So that you can go back. We're to be clear. We're we're fine We we have I mean, it's not for us. I mean, I you know, we we can remark about The process at a later date. Hopefully becoming more pleasant and efficient But we feel as if our cards have been played as perfectly as they can by tim The board is ready to make a decision. I know you guys have been busy today But just for the sake of going forward consistency It matters in processes like this and I can say Uh that this process has been decently and the rules that applied have been decently inconsistent And so we're just hopeful going forward that we clarify that for others. Thank you any other comments received any other comments and closing No, I think I think the car summed it up and and like I said, I think the Consistency part again for me, you've been working with some for 25 years. How long has it been? I think we've had the 2008 was when we we enacted the for the well started And I still couldn't forget what governs what what what what path what dictates what? Is it the baili bill that direction or is it the well started in that direction? And then what if somebody Doesn't take the baili bill to go to that opportunity then what happens at that point? So that was kind of my That I could not answer it even had to work even had to work with it for years What sure was the Path for that No, I'm a dangerous. Yeah Your point. Yeah All right Unless there's any follow-up comments all open the floor to emotion So, um, I would like to do this like a little differently than what was recommended So commissioner johnson just try to get a little closer. Oh, you don't hear me Okay, so I'm going to vote I think there's certain aspects of this that that should be granted and maybe other aspects that don't fit within the guidelines and In that um spirit or vein I moved to grant in part the certificate of design approval at 18 await kataba street subject to the following conditions The front door can be replaced Subject to the selection being reviewed by staff However, I moved to deny the request for the wholesale replacement of the windows and the surround around the door and this takes into consideration section seven of the Of the design guidelines the testimony provided in the exhibits that were also provided today I'm sorry. Could you could y'all hear that last part? And I was just saying that that my motion takes into consideration the design guidelines As well as the testimony the comments and the exhibits provided today Did staff clearly capture the essence there? Okay What about the window she will clearly, um Give the summary again of the motion. Okay, johnson. I got it, but I'll let you do it Okay, so I moved to grant in part the certificate of design approval At 18 await kataba street subject to the following conditions The first condition being that the front door can be replaced with the selection to be reviewed by staff Prior to purchase However, I moved to deny the request for the wholesale replacement of the windows And surround and that's based upon the design guidelines of section seven And that would also include a denial of the surround in changing that out. Let me have a second Second Mr. Bram Yes Ms. Branham. Yes Ms. Fuller will yeah, miss jaco. Yes, miss johnson. Yes Mr. Wolff No Mr. Baker. Yes Motion passes Thank you I mean, did you did y'all want to Do the Bailey bill still because she didn't make a motion again. I'm just again. I've been doing this a long time. No, no No, I'm asking I'm asking Right you're saying is the motion that was just said was not saying to pass passing it for the Bailey bill That the motion that we just passed did not also include it getting preliminary approval for the Bailey bill And then Not I think that's what we're rec staff is recommending. Yeah, that's that's the part I'm talking about So you tell us what what are we still missing we need a motion now on so yes, you would need a separate motion to approve the Bailey bill Okay With the same caveats that were just pretty much stated in the first Right. Yes. I elicited You got to leave the horse to water here All right We need a motion in regards to the Bailey bill component I'm happy to make the motion Thank you for preliminary granting preliminary a certification for the Bailey bill With the following conditions that it be That the door may be replaced with staff um approval However, the windows Original windows throughout the rest of the house as well as the surround around the door Will remain intact and not be removed But just replaced other renovated Original ones that can be seen from the street Okay I don't think that was the request was it Yeah, that's what we talked about Ddrc and staff only have purview of what can be seen from the street so it doesn't need to be specified I got you Yeah, what you said, I'm sorry. I deviated a little bit from the statement. I probably never should deviate We're all learning lots of Can you just add at the end of your motion all details And yes refer all the rest of the details to staff All right may have a second. I think we need to mention the fourth and fifth Bullet for as well You're right. Yeah, if you don't mind me. I'm sorry misserson. Just read the third and the fourth bullet as well too into the motion just for clarity That all work meetings All work meeting the standards of the work is outlined in section 17 dash six six nine eight And all details were deferred to staff in the one right above that but one right in the middle The project meeting or exceeding the 20 investment threshold requirements for qualified rehabilitation expenses All right, thank you. So, okay second second Mr. Brunham Yes, miss Brannum. Yes Miss Fuller-Wilt Yes Miss jaco. Yes miss johnson. Yes, mr. Wolff No And mr. Baker. Yes Motion passes All right. Thank you Hey, is there any other business this evening? The only other business we have is that miss Fuller-Wilt is rotating off the commission So this is her last meeting And just wanted to thank her for her service and wish her well Well, we will be missed Any other items? How about the continuing education? Are we doing? I think we're we're I think we're all good on that sky All right Thumbs up thumbs up. All right, that's good All right, if there's no other business can we have a motion to adjourn? All right Second. All right. Thank you adjourned.  Yes