Welcome back to Plus Politics. The president of the Senate, Ahmed Lawan, has stated that Nigeria is a poor nation and that has no option but to borrow to fund infrastructure development. Lawan, however, showed that the legislature will not be frivolous in granting executive requests for loans. He said such requests would be subjected to thorough scrutiny by the parliament before approval to ensure the use of the loan is monitored via an oversight arrangement. Joining us to discuss this is Gospel O'Billy, an economist. Thank you for joining us, Mr. O'Billy. Thank you for having me. Good evening. All right, so there's been, you know, arguments for many, a couple of years now actually. Back and forth, there's people who agree that Nigeria is completely broke. There's those who say, no, Nigeria is not broke. It is just poorly managed. I'm going to share, you know, something from Kingsley Mogalu, who posted on social media a couple of hours, I believe, maybe days ago. It says Nigeria is in poor. It is impoverished. We don't need to borrow. We do because we are lazy to think, generate revenue locally and too corrupt to let go of government funding inflated infrastructure contracts that can be done by private capital under PPP. So once again, I'm going to ask the question, do you think or do you agree with the Senate president or with Kingsley Mogalu? Is Nigeria broke? I don't think Nigeria is, I would say a mix of both, first of all. Nigeria has been poorly mismanaged and the way it stands right now. Technically speaking, Nigeria is broke. But if you look at it in terms of potentials, they are available for us to explore and maximize for infrastructure financing and all of that. Nigeria is not broke. So it's a figurative meaning when people say Nigeria is not broke. But technically within the scheme of things as it's where right now in economic management, that's the case. Okay, so let me understand better. Is it that we're not making enough from taxation, from a sale of oil, from agriculture, whatever else? Is it that the country isn't making enough or we're just not using our money well? It's actually a mix of everything. So first of all, the monies you're getting from the oil receipts are not being properly used for the right developmental causes. So it's either you are servicing a debt or you are funding government waste or from all kinds of recurrents or the other. So you have that there. Secondly, Nigeria is not making enough. Not making enough not because it doesn't have the potential to make enough. But not making enough because it hasn't properly diversified the non-oil revenue base and enabled critical economic agents in that space like SMEs or access markets beyond the nation. So yes, you have that document. You have the argument of not making enough in that regard. And also you have the argument of poorly mismanaging what it has currently in terms of wire receipts. Okay, well we're going to get into the perspective of making enough and how we can maybe even make more or maximize all the potentials we have as a nation to make a whole lot more money. But let's look into something that of course the Senate President also mentioned and that is borrowing to fund infrastructure. We currently are in about 33 trillionaire debt. We of course have borrowed and are still borrowing to fund infrastructure. Do you think that there are ways that we can look internally and fund our infrastructure by ourselves without continuing to borrow? The debt servicing figures currently are really, really shocking. Okay, so let me first state that technically there's no nation in the world that has reached a level of development that did not borrow. Budget deficits are normal to a very large extent. You'll hardly find a station where economists have budget surplus or a balanced budget. So it's largely budget deficit. Then the question now becomes that how do you finance those deficits? So you can either finance those deficits. One of the ways to finance those deficits is through debts. All right, so the big question is not really on the debts. It's actually on how those monies are channeled and what are the priorities for the public leadership or the government of the day. So technically we've not used those funds very well over the years. We once had a debt relief on the Paris Club in 2000 and people fall. But right now we find ourselves in the probably worst situation that we were then. That's one. On the second, and we understand infrastructure financing or infrastructure projects in a sense are very, very cubed by some projects. And right now in terms of revenue mobilization and developmental financing, Nigeria cannot afford to finance its infrastructure by itself at the moment. At the moment. Now, are there potentials to be able to unlock that? Yes. But if you look at it from a time lag and the urgency of infrastructure, being the fact also we've had a long history of fiscal and discipline, made that all the monies we made, all the monies we borrowed, nobody. At the moment are still largely being wasted and they've been properly appropriated or used. If you look at all that the fiscal and discipline and the poor revenue mobilization, then you know that there's a potential for us to finance our development ourselves. But because you have those two problems on board and infrastructure is a bit of an immediate item on the table, then the country has to look for critical ways to finance infrastructure. All right. So the focus largely is what are these monies being used for and the level of how they be channeled in terms of mainstream financing on projects and speeding up on projects and all of that to ensure that infrastructure is being delivered to Nigerian people. Well, it's also the responsibility of the government in power to figure these things out. For too long now, we've instead had persons in positions of power who have been appointed given speeches instead of actually going to work, given reasons, blaming one factor or the other instead of actually going to work. And it's going to be sad for Nigerians that after 80 years a set of people leave government or leave office and all they've done in those 80 years are talk about the reasons why things aren't working instead of actually being there and making sure that things work. So there is that. Another responsibility I believe the government should have is, as it currently stands, we have a problem with leakages of government funds. We have not been able to successfully create systems that block leakages. Ministries, department and agencies, contracts, the National Assembly, there's so much and so many ways through which Nigeria loses money every day without being able to account for any of these billions and billions of Naira. So let's talk about where the current administration may still be failing to block leakages with regards to government funds. Just to be in this context, failure to block funds and all of that and show that they're being used correctly. But leakages can also mean that the inaction that comes from government when SMEs do business across the shores and they make a lot of money without no checks and balance in that case. So leakage is also very, very related. It bothers everybody on your actions and your inactions. So yes, I agree that being the structural deficits we have in the Nigerian economy, leakages are a major issue that we have. One way to block these leakages would have been the use of technology in the sense, and also maximizing the Nigerian business ecosystem. But the truth is that you cannot do so much in the ecosystem until you've provided an enabling environment. All right? Part of providing an enabling environment is that the environment is so efficient that there are no room for leakages. All right? Because when you don't have an enabling environment, it automatically means that by your actions or inactions, there are rooms for leakages. So, and other economic agents are equally as smart or if not smarter. We have identified these leakages and tried to gain the system on those grounds. So yes, you can't blame them for that, but I think to a large extent the government has to build an efficient system around blocking leakages, particularly through the use of technology. All right? And whilst doing all of these things is showing that there is an enabling environment for people to thrive, so until the system is working, we cannot correctly block leakages to a large extent. Well, you know, you said you can't blame them. I'm guessing a lot of people would disagree because, you know, it's still part of their responsibility. I say you can't blame the SMEs for trying to optimize leakages. Oh, okay. Not the government. Well, I'm referring to government and being able to set up systems and you said, you know, technology. They should be able to set up systems to ensure that every single penny that is meant for the government gets into government accounts and we're able to increase the amount of earnings by the Nigerian government. We should be able to do better with auditing. We have a billion Naira contracts every other week and we still are not able to audit properly where all these funds go into.  We still don't do proper auditing to, you know, where all these funds go. Customs, immigration, there's so much that money can come from. Let me introduce Narmeka Obieriri, who is an investment banking executive. Thanks for joining us. If you can hear us, Mr. Narmeka, can you quickly say hello? Thanks for having me. All right, welcome. Thanks for joining us. So I want you to start up your conversation with regards blocking the leakages in government. Nigeria should be making a whole lot more. Should be having a lot more finances, you know, to fix infrastructure, but we don't seem to be finding this money anywhere. That's one question. I think one would be on how you think Nigeria can make more money. In what directions do you think our investment should be now? Should it be in agriculture, in information technology, in tourism anywhere? Okay, first of all, when we talk about leakages in the system, it's deliberate. It's a deliberate opaque system that will have been created by the 1999 Constitution, which a class of people that are classified as gangsters, people that are classified as political bandits across the nation, you know, deliberate created leakages that they know can easily be blocked. I'll give you a clear example. Nigeria is one country that is so blessed, one country that can actually live beyond the tag as the extreme property capital of the world if we are very sincere and honest. We talked about burrowing. Nigeria has no business burrowing if we have put our acts together. If you look at the records and the MPS reports, even the reports on the GMO, based on the second quarter reports, first quarter reports, 2021, Nigeria is spending about one trillion naira to service existing debts. One trillion naira used to pay interest component of over 22 trillion naira that has been accumulated over the last six years. One trillion naira that is used to service the interest component of over $22 billion that has been borrowed over the last six years that cannot be explained. And I will explain to you this. If you look at the 2021 budget, you will see clearly that that budget is predicated upon a deficit of about 5.2 trillion. 5.2 trillion that has been borrowed either by way of means from Central and Nigeria or through external burrowing. I've never seen a country, if Nigeria is a corporation, far long it would have been liquidated, and I will explain why. If you look at the 2021 budgets, the recurrent expenditure, both the wages and non-wages expenditure, is more than the revenue that we expected to incur, both from the oil and the non-oil sector. I've never seen a country anywhere in the whole world where the budget is planned and predicated on burrowing to pay for consumption. It is never done anywhere in Nigeria. And everything which this country is built in 1999 constitution, a constitution that provided for a China arrangement where people gather in a poachers to sell crude oil, share the revenues. Nobody within the 20 years of government is thinking about how they can create wealth. If you look at the 1960 constitution, those constitution were built upon a fiscal framework that allows for productivity, for resource control, where every constituent unit will go back to their base, create up revenue based on activities unique to those constituencies, contribute 50% to the sector and give it to themselves. These constituent units, both at the local government and the state level, do not bother one bit of how they can raise and create wealth and bring bread to the table. Everybody is waiting for the crude oil from our delta to be shared and distributed among the state. Nigeria is resource poor, and that is why we are burrowing. If we will go back to the 1960 constitution framework that are allowed for resource control, that are allowed for regional autonomy, that are allowed for the constitution needs to relook inward and grow their economies based on what is complicated but they have within those units and they contribute 50% to the sector and give it to themselves. Most states in Nigeria, most government elected political officials, we sit down and drill down on the assets and resources within their localities, build on those states and contribute to the sector. So what we are having today, what we are burrowing is because we have refused at all levels to tap into the resources available to us, but natural and human capital to build wealth that will be shared among the component units and nationalities within Nigeria. If you look at Nigeria from 1960 to 1966, look at our contemporaries in Dolesia, Malaysia, Singapore, you will discover that we have been left behind. We had a constitutional framework from 1966 that allowed each of the constituent units to drill down their assets, create value, give 50% to themselves and contribute to the sector. Today, we have a Barbara economy, a physical framework that intrudes laziness, that intrudes indolency, that intrudes corruption, that intrudes the worst of us, ruling over the best of us, and that is where we are today. Alright, Mr. Nemeke. If you look at it, I'm not sure if you can see or hear us. Mr. Nemeke, I think your response basically answered the two questions that I had asked you, and it's time for us to now wrap up the conversation on Plus Politics this evening, talking about Nigeria's finances and the need for restructuring and how we can do better if we make the right decisions. It's a conversation that can last for days or weeks. But I thank you both, Gospelo Bili, an economist and Nemeke, Ohi, Obeiriri, for both joining us and for sharing your views with us this evening. Looking forward to having another conversation with you. Thank you for having us. Alright, thank you for staying with us so far. It's been pretty interesting. We'll take a short break and when I return, I'll be giving my take. Still is Plus Politics, and now my take. Part of the job of the media is giving everyone a voice, the ability to hear different views on issues. We strive to make this happen for fairness, but also for traction and for views on our individual platforms. Media organizations want to interview pastors, government officials, boss drivers, criminal suspects, ex-convicts, basically everyone who brings a perspective to issues or brings controversy and viewership to our platforms is part of what we do as a media. But there's a problem when we allow the need for clicks on our platforms to drive our decisions on who gets that platform. Sometimes we may be doing more harm than good. Sometimes, constantly giving your platform to characters to have their say allows for the spread of toxic, dangerous views, almost even legitimizing views that could create more damage to the journey forward. It gives more boldness to characters who normally should hide their heads in shame. It destroys the moral compass with which we should live as a people. We should all fight to kill or change certain narratives and not give them platforms to grow. We should protect our society from destructive elements and not instead give them a megaphone of boldness. And that's my take. Thank you for joining us. I am Osao Gie, Ogmoa.


I want to let you in on a little secret. Have you noticed that when workers get better wages, the media blames them for rising prices? Wages are running well above what would be consistent with 2% inflation. But when corporations rake in record profits, they're silence. That's because corporate profits aren't tracked nearly as closely as worker wages. And the reason why comes down to power. Let me explain. Every month, we get measurements of prices, jobs and wages. These are the three economic variables we hear repeatedly because they're released each month like clockwork. They're viewed as the core criteria for how the economy is doing and drive the national economic conversation. But what's missing from this conversation? Corporate profits. Without a regular monthly report on profits, it's been easy for much of the media and the economic establishment to conveniently ignore them, along with the power that massive corporations wield when it comes to driving up prices. We do get reports on quarterly earnings from corporations, but those estimates are guesswork at best because corporations often use every accounting gimmick imaginable to hide their true value and reduce their taxes like Apple stashing profits overseas and Google depreciating assets like crazy. If we measured corporate profits more often and more reliably, Americans might start to get the full picture about what's driving inflation to historic highs, the power of big corporations to raise their prices higher than their costs arising. We could see profit price inflation, profits pushing up prices and not pin the blame on so-called wage price inflation. Workers getting raises, which by the way have actually been wage cuts when you account for rising prices. Instead, the corporate media repeat data about jobs, wages and prices, analyzing them and framing stories around them. They're used by policymakers at the Federal Reserve and in Congress and the White House. The conversation drives a continuous cycle. If you look at the jobs report, you actually see signs of inflation because wages are going up. People will stop job hopping once they start fearing that they won't be able to find a new job to hop to. He needs companies to lay off the workers or even go under to cool down the labor market. Corporations prefer it this way because their role in driving inflation isn't even considered. They're given cover to exploit very real supply chain issues while padding their profit margins. The less up-to-date and accurate information we have about their profits, the harder it is to respond with policies that will combat their pricing power. Not to mention that they cut major checks for political campaigns, so there's little incentive on behalf of many politicians to change this. The way we try to fix the economy, particularly inflation, is skewed in favor of big corporations and against regular workers because the way we measure the problem disregards the role of corporations. If we had timely and accurate information about corporate profits, rather than assuming by default that the Fed must hike interest rates to cool the economy by weakening workers' purchasing power, we would weaken corporations' pricing power through, for example, a windfall profits tax, selective price controls, and tougher antitrust enforcement. Ultimately, we must build an economy that values workers at least as much as profits. Doing this starts with measuring the right things.


I had to let him out because I had to administer an ampio-nut stick. If someone was going to do something about this, it had to be me. So, we figured out there is another dash 3. I was right. Listen, I really want to help you all figure out what happened because I really thought we were a family before all of this because I love you guys, okay? So, I want to protect you all from getting hurt and because I love you, Sloan. So, maybe we can figure out who did it so that nobody has to get hurt anymore. I'm sorry, I don't recognize whoever it was. I don't remember everything. Do you remember what your sister voice sounded like? Like if we, if we blind everybody up, there could be a suspect with you, maybe. I don't. That sounds dangerous. I don't think so. I received everything. Have you figured anything out there? No, I haven't. I told this meeting right now because it's nighttime and you can hear the dash 3's outside. I don't think we have much more time. Every time we sign, we have to figure this out right now. And we have to figure out how we're getting out of here. Do we respect or do we reject? Reject. Reject. Reject. Reject. Reject. Okay, even if we're going to get out of here, whatever this prophecy thing is or whatever, we have to figure out who the mole is and if we don't figure out who the accomplice is, they will sabotage us getting out of here. So we have to figure that out first. So can we just come in the middle here? Yeah, I think we'll get out of here. All right. I need to point fingers, but around, you see, a lot of karma. Yeah. Before the lights went out, you were constantly on edge, almost switching at all times. I give her a lot of pain. Yeah, I give her a lot of pain. Like six pieces. I give her a lot of pain. Right? You give her a lot of pain. You give her a lot of pain. Wow. I think everyone has their own suspicions about this, but we've tried scanning. We've tried candy. We've tried everything. I think we just need to go over the real facts, which is where everybody was last night, from 3 to 4 a.m., which is when the body was moved. I think that's going to be actually how we figure this out, regardless of all these other suspicions. All right. Does anybody want to share? If anybody found out, anyone else? Alibis? Yeah. Everybody? Specific alibis, but, I mean, two things. One, only security has access to the anesthetics. Things to consider. Number two, we asked all of the people that were here previously about the praise, the store's clothes, please exit the premises, and so on and so forth. And Cam, when he was under the influence of the anomaly, was like, maybe you feel fear, maybe you feel apprehension. It was this whole thing, right? Yeah. Yeah. We asked everybody, and everyone was like annoyed. They say that because it's annoying. One person acted in fear. I read you acted in a little bit. It was a little suspicious, I have to say. I also noticed the only other person who helped you move his body, which I just remembered, was Ren. You were the one that helped you move the body. Because in security, that's sort of funny. Also, then you're the only other person who has access to anesthetics. I have to ask Edward to get anesthetics. I haven't carried him anesthetics in a month. It's true. Edward really holds on to anesthetics. But, one of them happened to Edward. I know. It's just, I want to figure this out by seeing where everyone was last night. You just, you don't exist on that, right? Exactly. All right. Let's do it. Go around Robin asking, where are they from? You know, just out of everything. The only person when we were talking about who was awake last night, right? Sloane, stuff like that. Joe couldn't say that Sloane was there. Not even on his chair or room. He was saying it was because he was asleep. Yeah, there was, there was something. Or, were you doing something? Maybe, were you up? Let's see. Cam claimed that Sloane was talking to him all through the morning. All through the morning. Long time. Sloane was not moving the body. Yeah. So then, but Joe... I... I was worried that if I told the people where I actually was that it would raise a very sufficient on me and I'm kind of glad I didn't because otherwise I would have ended up like Edgar. I mean, this was fairly helpless. Yes. Well, I think I talked to, I believe I talked to you in a couple of minutes about this, but essentially, yeah, Clay, I think I talked to you about a little bit. Essentially, I went to inspect Carter's things because I had thought that he had motive to try and confront Cam last night and then I heard people coming in and it turned out to be Iris and Dr. Wondertainment. And, understandably, the two of you were grieving and consoling each other and being very vulnerable and honest.  They opened it up and saw me in there. Thankfully, you guys didn't knock me out or, you know, wrap me out to the group, but you allowed me to reach with you and that took us basically the whole morning as well. Yeah. Um, yeah. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Let's... I'd say... What about you two? I actually have a question about you two. You claimed that he was consoling you the entire... for almost an hour while this was happening. I... He doesn't remember a word, I believe. Okay. I did say that and it was because, as Joe mentioned, we were all talking together last night and one of the things I discussed with the two of them as I was grieving was that I was having second doubts of the marriage. And I didn't... I didn't want to tell anyone because I knew that I knew that if I said something about... Focus here, focus here.  It's like, but I didn't do it. And I was with Oz and Joe all night last night, but I knew if I said that with all the chaos going on, nobody would listen to me and just automatically think it's me, so I didn't want to see you. Yeah. And that's why I said I was with him. Is he... But I don't know about... Is he saying he doesn't remember anything? He doesn't remember anything. Well, I wasn't with him last night. Yeah. Now that makes more sense. Yeah, but now... So is he with... Where were you last night? I was, uh... With Edgar. With Edgar? He said you were... You? He said you were... No, you were, uh, three-dish awake and... Edgar, uh, he got me with some amnestics last night. It's funny that, uh, Izzy claimed the side effect of the amnestics was an extremely, extremely, extremely dry mouth, which Edgar repeatedly claimed was not one of the side effects. But then we know that you were not amnesticized last night. That's the point. I was amnesticized last night, and I was pretending that it worked. Why? Well, why are you saying it now? Can we help this time? I have dirt on Edgar, all right? And I can't say that I have dirt on Edgar when he thinks I don't remember I got dirt on Edgar. Wait, hold up. So why would Edgar feel the need to administer amnestics to you last night? Because I saw him trying to kill Tam. What? No! What? What? Oh, no, that's fair. I killed somebody. No, that's not fair! I tried to kill Cam. I thought Cam was put locked away right after the murder of Carter. When did he take... When? Around, uh, maybe like 3 30-ish? I woke up, I couldn't sleep, and I went around checking all the barricades, and I saw Edgar swinging around this table leg saying, I'm gonna kill that son of a bitch, Cam, and he left his post watching the body and went over to the bathroom, and that is why I intervened, and I just could not in good consciousness let that happen. You say he left his post? Does that mean he was on watch right then? He was, yeah. But Cam ran said that she was on watch at that time. I don't even say anything. No one even asked me about watch. Okay, so, so far with everything that we've gone through, everyone was with each other, at least for a little bit, but right, nobody was with you the whole night. I'm serious more about that. I know Edgar's gone, but he was saying that they were together, but you weren't with anybody last night, so your alibi is the only one that's not gonna count it. Why, I saw song going to the bathroom. Exactly, you saw me going to the bathroom, which means you were out of bed. Well, yeah, I went to bed after that. And why were you trying to go into the bathroom? I just wanted to check on Cam. Why would you do that? Because I know from personal experience when it takes me long to shower. Do you also know what it's like to murder? No. Yeah, did you have to hide with everything about him? Oh yeah, so that is it. I'm sure you didn't kill him. I didn't mean to kill him.  He was an expert. He was an expert. What's the truth? I'm not saying that you did anything, right? It's just not... Everyone else was accounted for when the body was moved. It was impossible for any of us to do it. And you're the only person that no one can corroborate. So just because of that, you really think it's me? We don't have anything else to go off about. It's not like I don't think you have any way to do it. We don't have any other option. You guys literally know me. I could not do this. I couldn't do anything like this. I just want to know where you are. I was in my room just so that no one saw me sleeping. That means that I moved up. Nobody mentioned the body. You're... The entire conversation! The conversation was about how you were watching Cam go in the bathroom. The original one. And you mentioned the body just now. No, the original conversation was where I was when the body was moved. Yeah. I'm friends with all of you. You guys actually think that it can be me? It's just that no one can see where you were.  Wait a minute. I cannot believe that you think that... I cannot believe that you are the one that figured it out! Fuck! You have two researchers. You have security, but no one... Nobody knew that there'd be more cameras here. It's just that this was fake. Honestly. You should be ashamed of yourself.  You don't want to get me started. Yeah, okay, okay. It was me. Congratulations. I'm going to let that move the body, but it does not matter.    It's awesome.   You're not only denying me, you're denying our entire nature!  But then, no, you got cold feet.   What could you possibly say for yourself? Friend, this is great all this time. You've been there, you understood me. We understood each other. Yeah, and I thought we did, Cam! We're like siblings and that's amazing because that means we can help each other. These people, they're our family. You're having real feelings now. You're feeling rage and that's human. Feelings are human. We can, we can make this right without killing anybody. We can help them leave the idea. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Maybe you're right. Yeah. Except we are not even close to siblings. We cannot be farther apart from Cam. I am far superior to you in every sense of the way. And that's why I was able to do every little manipulation that I did. I mean, we really, we were really getting somewhere over here. You wanted me to see my memory from the SCP, but you had the wrong... myself talk you into murdering Carter again. Again. I don't understand where I went wrong, Cam. I mean, I tell you time and time again, when will you learn? This place, there's not what it needs. It needs healing. This place has been trying to tell us this whole time.  This place, it's been trying to communicate with us. It's been trying to help us out of here. And it told us from sickness that begins to sprout grows out, violent precedence. Freedom is found in slipping out. You must respect the red moustache. You did it to me! It's true. It's poem, it's prophecy.  Yeah, I did. I mean, I had a good reason, but... I had to fight for my life every day for the past ten years. I have not had anything to eat except meatballs. The one thing I have learned is that you cannot fight the idea, okay? You have to work with it. You have to to learn its patterns and then this place. I don't want to fight you anymore, Ren. It's time to begin menuing.  Uh... Wait, wait, everybody, listen, listen. I can feel it with those words that I can feel when you spared Ren. I may be human now, but it's... the idea is still in my DNA. I can feel that when you spared Ren something changed. You completed the prophecy. I think that's the exit. That's the exit. Nice. I think I can open this door and we can all leave this place for good. Yeah, yeah, yeah! Yeah, no, I mean, we follow... We can't leave this body here. She doesn't deserve this. He made it. He made it. His body will be able to restore balance to this broken toy of his. The spirit will bind with the broken parts and finally make it the true dream and vision that he had for so much time. Make your way, make your way! Make your way around. One candy for the doctor. Two candies for the doctor. Is everyone ready? Yeah! Let's get some candy! We got a spare! I got a punch! Sharks punched one. We achieved. It's more than zero. A novelist? He'll come back eventually. He always comes back. I gotta go, I gotta go. My phone died. Phone died. So two casualties. Look at that. We made it out alive. We only lost a phone, doctor entertainment, and one angry neighbor. So I think we did okay. Thank you all for the stream. Thank you so much for following all the stream, everyone. We did it. The away team survived. We will see you guys in the episode edits. See you at the outlets. Bye guys!