and a lot of insights that are coming through there and based on your extensive experience in terms of the scoring and the grading of these buildings and the energy consumption thereof, what are some of those solutions that property investors can implement you know in order for them to maintain a favorable rating and for them to get to having a very good rating in terms of their APC. Don't have an APC? You could face 5 million grand fine or even worse jail time. Are you worried whether your building is green enough or you should be? In this episode our expert guest will help you understand the ins and outs of the energy performance certificates from the expert's mouth to your ears. These are property insights you don't want to miss. This is the Private Property Podcast. I'm Dummi. Welcome. Join the conversation tonight on Facebook by dropping your comments below and you could stand a chance to win 500 grand cash. See competition details in the description. All this without wearing a cape. That's quite a task there, Freaky. Viewers at home, help me give a warm welcome to the head of sustainability at Remote Metering Solutions, Freaky Malan. Freaky, good evening and thank you so much for joining us. Timmy, thank you for inviting me to participate in the show. I'm really looking forward to tonight and to discuss the latest or one of the trending topics in the energy space energy performance certification for buildings. Thank you so much. You know, really, really appreciate it. Jumping straight in. Is it true that without an APC one could face 5 million grand fine or even jail time? To me, there is sort of some, how can I say, validity in that statement, but we've got to unpack it a little bit. The first thing to understand is that not all buildings need an APC. In terms of the regulations that were published in December 2020, only four occupancy classes of buildings need APCs. So these are your G1 offices. A1, the A1 occupancy class, which is places of entertainment and public assembly. A2, which is theatrical and indoor sports. So it's places where people would gather to watch indoor sports or theatrical performances. And A3, which is places of instruction like colleges and schools and universities. So for instance, home owners don't belong to any of those occupancy classes and they don't need to have an APC on their houses. If you're a property owner and you own a shopping center, a shopping center is also not one of those four listed occupancy classes. So unless your building belongs to one of those four occupancy classes, that's one of the criteria to decide whether you need an APC. And the other one is the building size. So if your building is owned by a private owner, then the building must be larger than 2000 square meters. If it's owned or occupied or operated by what is referred to as an organ of state, then that size threshold is 1000 square meters. So it's interesting that in a government owned buildings, the size threshold is actually smaller than private owned buildings. So generally speaking, by all accounts, estimates, sort of general consensus in the market, there's between 200,000 and 300,000 buildings in South Africa that do need an APC. And it's worth mentioning that the deadline for achieving your compliance with the APC regulations is actually this December, December 2022. So there's not a lot of time left to get your APC if you don't have one yet. And if you obviously belong, if your building belongs to those occupancy classes and if it's larger than the 2000 square meters. Sure. Someone is already watching us tonight and maybe as a property investor or even belongs to that category that you mentioned, but is still wondering what is an APC and how do I obtain it? You know, let's just delve into what it is and what it entails and how does one obtain it if they already have a building that sits in one of those categories. Okay, so I'm going to just go back to my one of my opening remarks where I said it, where I mentioned that there were regulations published in 2020 that effectively brought APCs into law. So it is legislated and in a non-compliance with the regulations means that you are transgressing the National Energy Act, which then could lead to the fines, which was your first question. So effectively, what is an APC? It is a piece of paper. It's a simple answer with a writing on it from A to G, where A is a very efficient building and G is a building that's not terribly efficient. I think the closest analogy is if you look at these days if you buy a fridge or a washing machine or whatever, most of them have these stickers on the side that also has this rating that is an indication of the energy efficiency of that appliance. Now an APC is pretty much that same kind of sticker if you want that is applied to a building. So an A, like I said, denotes a building that is very energy efficient and a G would be a building that's not efficient. The middle range is more or less a D. So what that means is an APC is calculated by determining the total energy consumption of a building over a 12-month period. That is typically called the year of assessment and that is that total kilowatt-hour energy consumption is then normalized by the building size. So in other words, you just divide the total energy consumption by the building size. Obviously larger buildings will consume more energy than smaller buildings and that answer that you get is compared to a national standard. It sounds 10, 400 XA. There's a 2011 version and a more recent 2021 version and depending on how your building stacks up against that reference consumption gives you the A or the B or the C or the D or whatever rating your building gets. It's also useful maybe to mention that an APC is valid for a period of five years. So once you have an APC for your building you only need to revisit that building's performance and the APC of the five years. Thank you so much for that and a lot of insights that are coming through there and based on your extensive experience in terms of the scoring and the grading of these buildings and the energy consumption thereof what are some of those solutions that property investors can implement in order for them to maintain a favorable rating and for them to get to having a very good rating in terms of their APC. So I'm going to try not to get too technical because it's easy to go into something to add an engineering rabbit hole to but I think you know let's start at the type of buildings that qualify for APCs and I think you know in our experience at least in the market that we're targeting most of the buildings that we have done APCs for are the office type building near your commercial buildings and in those buildings your major energy consumers are typically your lighting and your air conditioning systems. So if you want to improve the performance of your building from an APC point of view you have to look at how can you reduce the energy consumption that is associated with either your lighting or your air conditioning systems in the building and there's a host of called energy efficiency interventions that a property owner can consider. I think the key is what do you do to improve the building's performance that still gives you a good return on investment and that's not always simple and you know I think any property owner who wishes to improve the portfolio or the performance of his building or his portfolio would do well to appoint a call it an energy efficiency subject matter expert to help him on this journey. One thing that I do want to mention is sort of a common assumption in the market that if you put solar PV on a building which most people are doing these days for for many reasons not just efficiency I think with load shedding being what it is most people are looking at some kind of solution that will give them electricity when well when when ESCOM is when we're in a state of load shedding. So the common misconception is that if I put solar PV on my building my APC rating will improve but that's not correct because an APC looks at the total energy consumption of a building it does not really from an APC point of view matter where the energy comes from whether it's from ESCOM whether it's from a diesel generator or whether it's from a solar PV plant it's still kilowatt hours so you know you can even take a building off grid it will still have the same APC rating that it would have received if it was still connected to the grid if the total amount of kilowatt hours were not reduced I hope that makes sense. No thank you so much for that yes and and it totally does in terms of what it is and how one can prepare for it so let's let's talk about let's talk more about the role that you are currently playing as the head of sustainability at the remote metering solution can you tell us a little bit more about that and what exactly you do. Yeah Timmy thank you so we're a new business unit within remote metering solutions and you know our mission is to help our clients to reduce their government footprint improve the efficiency of their facilities whether that's commercial or industrial but you know I think I used the word journey earlier and this kind of approach to really implement changes in a portfolio of buildings that are sustainable is a journey it's not a one-shot sort of silver bullet that can solve all your problems and and one of the most important steps in this journey is to understand where am I starting from what is my current situation and I think this is where EPC is also playing an important role because an EPC is really a benchmark of a building's performance and you know the question isn't really or it's not important whether a building is A or a B or a C whatever the rating is but the question to ask is rather how do you improve the rating what do you do to reduce the energy consumption of that building and this is where we help our clients to develop call it energy efficiency and renewable energy and sustainable sustainability plans that span more than one year it's not just about doing something this year and then you know your job is done it's what you do this year what you do the year thereafter and how do you put this program together in such a way that the return on investment on the one end and the environmental impact on the other end is is maximum no thank you so much for that freaky and let's let's jump into the factors that are considered when as a specialist comes into your building you are one of the people whose building is in the categories the four categories that you mentioned you're either school or college or even a sports facility a specialist is walking into my building what are the four factors that he or she is looking at in order for them to grade the to grade my energy consumption and which level of my EEPC's or how my APC is going to look rather okay so so when we determine the energy performance certification rating of a building there's a number of factors that we take into account the first is the total energy consumption of the building and I have to emphasize the word total so we look at all the energy sources that are being used in the building that would be your grid electricity and I think most people still rely on the grid your solar PV consumption if you have a solar PV plant on your roof we have to take into account how much diesel was consumed during that bold month year of assessment and again you know most buildings these days do have some form of diesel backup so that is quite an important energy source some buildings use gas and even though that's not usually a significant contributor to the total energy consumption we do have to take that into account the standards also make provisions for solid fuels so I'm glad to say that so far we haven't found any buildings that use coal and I hope we don't but that is always a possibility and then we also look at any we also have to take into account any energy that might leave the building so that's sort of a bit of a technical case but what I'm trying to say is the first factor is what is the net energy consumption of that building so it's all the energy that's been used in the building minus the energy that could for some reason or another leave the building then I think I mentioned that the energy consumption is normalized for the size of the building so there the standards referred to the net floor area which is a very specific definition of the size of a building so what we need to do that what we need from a property owner to determine the net floor area is his building plans which we then analyze and we determine the net floor area and then we also take into account things like what was the level of occupancy for the building now that's quite relevant given COVID and building occupancy rates were definitely down especially in the commercial sector so if you're yet of assessment power over the lockdown period then it's something that we that we do take into account and then you know just to sort of cross the T's and dot the I's we also look at the operating hours of the building you know the assumption for an office building for example is that the offices run 12 hours a day five days a week but let's say you have something like a call center that is operated 24 by 7 it is a factor that is going to influence the energy consumption and therefore the rating of the building and we do need to take that into account so I guess that that's sort of the big picture there's a lot of nitty gritty that I'm not getting into but in short we need to take into account all the energy consumption all the energy consumers in the building or sources of energy the net floor area and the building occupancy and then the operating hours and the operating conditions of the building sure if you just joined us we are talking e-pc certification and how you can ensure if you fall part of the categories that make that that require e-pc certificates to ensure that you don't get fined or even face jail time so if you have questions or comments do remember to send those to us so that freaky can deal with them before we let him go tonight freaky before before we start taking the questions on social media I just want to ask a question quickly in terms of how can we quantify the saving or we the the goal is to save energy and we we may we may know how much energy we have saved but can we then quantify it in terms of the the environment or how much carbon or carbon monoxide or even pollution that we are saving in a year or even in a couple of years will we be able to know or is this something that has been done in the industry to say we know how much how much we have saved and how much damage we have saved or prevented from doing these exercises yes yes indeed to me I think the notion of carbon footprinting for buildings well many types of buildings is quite well established and a lot of people are helping property owners understand their carbon footprint number one and also what if they take any measures to improve with that carbon to reduce the carbon footprint you know the the mechanisms and methods to report on that as well established and yeah so so the relationship between let's say the kilowatt hours that the building consumes the energy that the building consumes and this depends on the the source of energy and the carbon emissions associated with those kilowatt hours oh no so you know if a building's energy mix consists of you know grid electricity and diesel and solar PV the carbon footprint can be can be determined I think this is I mean I mentioned that solar PV and having sort of renewable energy mix doesn't effectively be seen but it would obviously have a massive impact on our carbon footprint because all the kilowatt hours coming from a solar PV plant really has zero carbon footprint so you know a building that has let's say 30 percent of its power coming through its electricity coming from so PV would have a lower carbon footprint and the same building that uses the same amount of kilowatt hours but it's all coming from the grid so these two buildings would have the same EPC rating but the building would have a much lower carbon footprint. Thank you so much for that Tricky and folks there you have it thank you so much for joining us tonight it was a really informative session and we really really co-appreciate you coming through and fielding those questions for us if anybody is in those category of of buildings or owns one I believe I bet you they are going to be implementing one of those EPCs thank you so much for joining us and have a good night. Thank you. Good night. So we are going to be taking a quick feature which is something new that I am sure you are absolutely going to love we are talking everything and everything energy we come to you bringing you fast facts about energy so tonight we are looking at these these particular fast facts energy efficient buildings have cleaner combustion and better ventilation than traditional buildings and energy efficient buildings reduce indoor air pollution they also minimize outdoor pollution by reducing the fossil fuel pollution caused by power generation because of because they use less energy our second five fast facts for tonight is that reducing indoor and outdoor air pollutants can reduce the occurrence of illnesses like asthma lung cancer as well as the rate of premature deaths our third fun fact building efficiency provides the most return on the investment in terms of reducing climate change and causing emissions in addition to lowering infrastructure costs and household expenses number four building efficiency improves regularly regularly have a low cost or provide return on investment in the form of energy cost savings in as little as six six months to a year this is an indirect contrast to emission cutting investments in other sectors such as agriculture transportation which are either pretty expensive or result in decreased emission reductions and number five building cons buildings consume 40 percent of global energy and emits 33 percent of greenhouse gas emissions making new builders making new buildings sustainable and energy efficient will be critical to our efforts to combat climate change employees bottom lines and investors can all benefit from green buildings that was our new fun fact hopefully hopefully you guys enjoyed that segment and i am going to be now telling you who won the most engagement for tonight's episode ladies and gentlemen put your hands together as we welcome glad shirinda who is the winner of tonight's 500 grand cash prize congratulations to you glad shirinda hopefully you'll tell us in the comments what you're going to do with your prize and that brings us to the end of our episode tonight thank you so much for joining us we were talking EPC tonight and if you are if you are in this this space and you are part of those categories hopefully you now know what you need to do to ensure that your buildings are efficient so the next time we see you right here on the private property podcast 7 p.m every weekday have a great night


Everybody forced here ripping 22 23 revolution basketball hobby 8 box case number 22 This is a pick your team style break Adam W with the Bulls Anthony B Clippers heat and sons bow with the Mavericks Bexod with the Raptors Brian G Pacers Bryce D Celtics Erica Jazz Hunter R Spurs Jeff M Pelican 76ers Blazers Curt D. Lakers Long J T Wolves Manuel with the Cavs Mike Y Grizzlies Paul G Has the Pistons Kings in the Rockets Raquel Thunder Ryan C Nuggets Ryan P Nets Scott T Warriors Bucks Sloan Magic Saul Knicks Woon C Hawks and Zachary has the Hornets and the Wizards best of luck everybody. Give me one second here. We do We'll be doing awesome other Bruins penalty Okay, again eminence is on sale eminence is on sale. We've got astro to buy us Harris for the Sixers It's got eight to go Williams rookie astro rookie Jabari Walker Blazers It's a shockwave tri-young rookie grew Vittari East in Rockets in the morning Benedict Mather and rookie for the Pacers got fractal shockwave Keegan Murray Kings I'm not doing something tomorrow 11 lift off LeBron James Lakers Astro Clippers Paul George That's Vortex Galactic Yanis onto the Combo That's disgusting congrats of the Bucks SSP parallel Galactic Yanis Chet Holmgren rookie, we've got a Zion Williamson future frame pelicans 60 of 60 Astro Brandon Ingram for the pelicans She had bodgy group Keldon Johnson spurs First box with the bang Lift off Zach Levine rookie group Lake Wesley spurs Manny's back. Oh geez man. Hey can't shake this guy dude The abate rookie astro is a mobility Cavaliers Manny would you eat the moon if they were made of cheese Halliburton got astro RJ Barrett for the Knicks Ravia we got fractal shockwave tri-young Hawks Dylan Terry a rookie revolution and Astro Devon Booker Sons and a Jeremy Sohan spurs rookie base auto Nice so on for the spurs Caloco lava Keldon Johnson spurs Number eight out of ten nice card spurs great box for you awesome.  Come on There's a trash right now. Oh Got astro rookie Malachi random for these spurs It's got you bars. You got groove rookie Johnny Davis for the wizards Duran rookie fractal shockwave tri-young Hawks Halibun caro supernova rookie for the magic got astro Ben Simmons Nets and rookie auto jazz. Oh shag Bajie Nice card jazz I said Daniels Hey, Paul George 35 out of 60 future frame for the Clippers James Harden. We've got an astro oji on nobie for the Raptors Mcgowen's rookie groove Devin Booker Sons rookie revolution Tari Easton Rockets rookie fractal Trevor Keele's nicks Williams. We've got a rookie astro Malachi random spurs King and Murray Kings rookie revolution got fractal LeBron James Lakers Mathor and rookie Pacers with a fractal shockwave Devin Booker Sons.  What are you talking about, Manny? Grew Clay Thompson Warriors.  Hello. Hey, what's up Apollo? Rants, you got astro Russell Westbrook for the Lakers. I don't know. It was a commercial The head of the Red Sox plan tonight Zeno's a guardian. I didn't even know that Who's the pitching matchup? Oh Bieber on gang it do Red Sox or Red Sox anyone Bruins Red Sox both play like trash tonight. What a night E. G. Lidell. We've got Trey man Thunder future frame number 55 out of 60. I don't know that one man. Yeah, I don't I don't have a cable We spawn Jang fractal John Marant Grizzlies Yeah, I'm sorry Apollo. I'm watching the Bruins play like absolute garbage of the Panthers So I'm not quite on your level but almost there groove John Marant Grizzlies Jayla Williams Ricky revolution for the Thunder. Yeah, I guess so Hunter. I guess so astro Garland kevs Kiehl's I think I think Leafs are gonna win rookie astro. Take the radio Grizzlies. I think Leafs got it Dude, I'm that's what I'm saying Vaughn. We don't play a team Like every time we play a team we face their best possible pitching matchup. We like we always do Shockwave Keegan Murray. I don't understand how rookie groove Jabari Smith jr. Rockets the fractal vortex Shaggy others Alexander for the Thunder Liftoff John Marant astro siacum for the Raptors. They don't have to win for in a row Shockwave Sohan astro drew holiday for the Bucks Deans coming to rub it into Tite tight Washington astro Ricky Liddell for the Pelicans fractal Marcus smart Celtics Williams fractal Shockwave J. Nivea pistons Key revolution Jabari Smith jr. Rockets got astro Dylan Brooks and a Jason kid Mavericks fractal auto 820 100 There you go Mavs. This that's a sweet one The curse of rich Hill Matthew and rookie Marcus smart impact Celtics to 149 got groove rookie Brandon Spurs Dude, I will be I Will be I'll be so depressed at the Bruins lose you rookie chat Holmgren Got a groove Jalen Brown Celtics. This is game six, right? Yes game six. I mean if they lose the series Like you'd I won't answer phone calls. I won't respond to texts or anything. You guys ain't gonna yeah You guys probably ain't gonna see me again Griffin got fractal vortex Trey young Hawks Scotty Pippin jr. Rookie cosmic 12 out of 99 Lakers got liftoff J. Nivea pistons astro Rudy go bear for the T Wolves You'll be cheat rookie groove Mike Conley for the jazz Johnny Davis got a rookie fractal Dyson Daniels pelicans Palomane carol base rookie rookie asher who's monjeng for the Thunder. That's kind of weird, right Apollo Brandon rookie revolution for the Spurs astro comminga Warriors Shockwave Johnny Davis rookie groove Josh Minot T Wolves And a extra peril her rookie revolution Cosmic 18 to 99 bowls Dale and Terry extra killer Kiehl's you've got a dwelling bead cubic for the Sixers Number nine out of 50. There you go Sixers Keegan Murray vortex rookie groove Caleb Houston magic and I'm got a groove Devin Booker Sons Hey, that's fair to feel that way though Apollo. They're gonna have to go out there and do it, right? Liftoff Jalen Green astro Gandra Aiden Sons Jane Hardy rookie for the Mabs rookie astro who's Monjeng Thunder Jalen Green Shockwave Astro McCollum pelicans Houston we've got a fractal rookie revolution who's Monjeng Thunder astro John Wall That'll do it Still late to go on eminence everybody and is on sale still late to go I've got impact of Marcus smarts Kyle kuzma a Cosmic of Scotty Pippin jr in Dale and Terry Future frame Paul George Trey man Zion Williamson cubic dwelling bead lava Kelvin Johnson Autos of Sohan Agbaji Jason Kidd and we also had a Galactic vortex you honest on to the Kumpo that'll do it. Thanks again everybody. We're on to elite core contenders mixer


And here we have our new baby girl, she is fresh out of mommy's tummy and already sleeping. This is her weight, 2900, I think 20 grams, and this is baby Daenerys. Hello baby Daenerys. Can I touch her? Yeah. Okay. This is daddy. Oh, here is baby Daenerys with her clothes off. As you can see it's a healthy baby girl and she's moving around and she can already grip daddy's finger. That's her normal reaction to hold on to anything that they want that you give them. There we go. Hi baby Daenerys.  You have to take you back. It's cold outside. There we go.  See there's a little bit of Mongolia spot. Okay. Well that's normal. That's normal. Okay. Wow. We consider that as a birthmark. Thank you. And I'm sure the other three girls will be very happy to see you. Oh, you've got four girls. Wow. We keep joking. Not more for a basketball team. But mommy said no more. That's it. This is the last baby. All right. Thank you Daenerys. We will put you back and see you soon.


All right, hey everybody, glad y'all can make it and excited to talk to y'all, let's get started. So yeah, my name is Scott Massey. I'm the head of product and marketing for Morft. I joined the team in January prior to that. I was with Pantheon for about a decade from the very beginning, ran support, customer success, Docs, Deverell, everything sort of after the signature for a while and then I moved to before the signature and helped marketing and sales and my last role was running our global go-to-market. And yeah, so I'm super excited to be on the Morft team working on cool stuff and personalization and some of the sessions you might have seen earlier about AI and that sort of thing. Naveen is also a colleague and a coworker, just due to logistics, he couldn't make it but he's an awesome developer on our team that builds awesome websites and as far as Drupal goes, really knows his onions as the British people say. Maybe Kiwi say that too, I don't know. I know Americans don't say it. But this American, he said something pretty famous like years ago, this guy's John Wanamaker and he's sort of the forefather of marketing and he had this quote that like, half the money I spend on advertising is wasted, the trouble is I don't know which half and that's why he has his hand to his temple and he's glaring it because he's trying to figure this out and even though technology has advanced rapidly and there's all sorts of new tech out there, modern site owners and marketers still struggle with these questions that are kind of phrased in a different way about like kind of like, at a high level, like is this site working or is my marketing working? What messaging is resonating? Like where are we losing users and customers and where could we improve our marketing? And I think it's difficult, it's made more difficult in today's world because of this like this Omnichannel, marketing structure that we work in where there's not just a website but maybe a portfolio of websites and there's devices and then there's iOS apps and Android apps and all these sort of things that kind of each have their own like visibility into the customer journey. So measuring them is hard. It's almost like sometimes there's a, almost too much to measure and it's hard to tell like what's really correlated with like customer happiness or for a value. And I think like segmentation and things like that, there's all these cool tools and there's this whole MarTech industry that's out there but a lot of this requires the resources that really only put, really are only accessible to enterprise level companies and that's kind of why I wanted to talk about this because I think there's a couple of things with a couple of advancements in Google's products that sort of allow us to make use of analytics in a different way and actually sort of get the same benefit that maybe a company that has millions of dollars of budget to spend on data science and advanced kind of MarTech stuff.  I meant to come to the other room so why do I have to listen to analytics the last session of the last day like why are you subjecting me to this? And so I at least want to posit to you that these three things are true that Looker and GA4 together, whether you like them or not can help you understand your users better that you can kind of think of it in a different way now you can actually do your marketing and your customer journeys and your domain knowledge first and plug that into analytics and be able to not just look at a bunch of canned reports but you can sort of analyze like real sort of action and actual sort of work that you're doing and seeing what the results are and paired with like face-to-face and customer development and like developing hypotheses you can kind of test them and create this virtual lifecycle where they feed into each other and the data you get gives you more hypotheses to test and you can test them on real people and sort of just gradually get better and hopefully fight above your weight class and compete with the big shots. And I think this is kind of happening like this is happening with Google not necessarily because like having worked with GCP and Google for a long time like I have the I always have the sense that like they don't build anything for you they build it for themselves and if it works for you that's kind of like a happy coincidence for them. And so I think that like this is something that matters to them like they need to kind of understand like where users are for their own sort of survival. And so in this one sense we're kind of aligned on this like website owners and agencies that are involved and marketing teams and Sundar Pichai from Google are all kind of looking at the same kind of things and have the same goals here for this talk. So I wanna talk about GA4 looker and how to put it all together with Drupal. I don't have anything to say about AI I just wanted to be cool so I put it up there. So yeah, so GA4 like as I was preparing this it resonated like how much GA4 is kind of like the Drupal 7 to 8 conversion. It's a pretty big C change for Google. And so if you've logged into your analytics you've probably seen this countdown to when they're gonna lift and shift it for you if you don't do it yourself just because the kind of the under the architecture of what was called well universal analytics or I think officially it was like called like web plus app or something like that is changing significantly enough to where it's a lift and shift and they'll do it for you but if you have custom stuff in there it may break. So I wanted to just kind of describe kind of the meaningful like what I think are kind of the important and relevant things that are changing here. One is the tracking like Google Analytics originally had this concept of users that had sessions these sessions were a bunch of page views and that's kind of the main sort of nouns that were involved here in this kind of process. And like since then obviously the aforementioned channels and applications and multiple sites and devices and things like that. And plus that content itself is much more dynamic and personalized and a lot of stuff going on. So like they had to kind of update the antiquated model for how stuff works. So now they have this concept of data streams and a data stream is sort of a place to ship data to Google Analytics or wherever you needed to go but you set up these data streams and then you can aggregate them and analyze them. And so they also have this concept of mixed reporting identity where they're attempting to be able to track one user across those different data streams across devices and things like that. So you can measure like a single user as they switch between mobile and desktop or whatnot. A lot of this stuff is still like in the works and sort of black boxy at this point but that's some of what's going on that I think is relevant to us. The user interface is also changed significantly which I'll get into because whereas GA used to kind of come with a bunch of standard kind of canned reports. It's much more looker-ish like you don't get those same reports but you're sort of encouraged at this point to use the kind of looker user interface to build your own reports and it's pretty powerful but it's not necessarily what people who've used GA before are used to. It's kind of a new paradigm for reporting but it does give a non-technical marketer a lot more power to do all sorts of stuff to have these events, you know, things that happen on the website that they want to track that's relevant to their domain or whatever and be able to ship them to Google Analytics or Looker or kind of wherever you want to. And yeah, so the data model is kind of built up of these events. Like a page load is an event now whereas it used to be kind of like a page load so now it's one of many events like one of hundreds of events that exist now in GA4 but can also be kind of you can create your own and have them in there. So it's very much open-ended to be a cool tracking tool. And then finally, like Google is committed by 2024 to not use cookies anymore. So that's also kind of a black box as to what's gonna happen but it seems to be centering around this consent mode kind of thing. So like there were updates kind of required to move forward with that initiative. So the reception across the board has been pretty solid and stable. This poor woman I think is hyperventilating. I don't think she's throwing up but I think it's taking her breath away and hopefully she'll adapt and be okay there. I think like in the words of kind of tech evangelist Kelsey Hightower, like tech is less about learning a specific tool as it is like the willingness to learn a different tool when that time comes. And I think if especially we Drupal people if we embrace end of life as a way of life like these sort of changes we can kind of look at the benefits of them. And I think like in general moving forward with GA4 is a good thing for us. That being said, like it's a means to an end. I have no particular affinity for Google Analytics and I'm not like a SEM guy or anything like that. But on the other hand, Looker I do like. I've been a fan of Looker forever. I've used it a lot over the last 10 years. My prior company, hundreds of users depended on it. Hundreds of my fellow coworkers depended on it from accounting to operations to support to sales and marketing. It's a super tool. It existed on its own for a while then it was acquired by Google and has been through some branding iterations. But now it's kind of pretty well integrated into their marketing suite. And it's kind of like built on, it's almost like an MVC sort of format but it has these models and views and it's very kind of DevOps friendly in the large scheme of things. You can, it's versionable and you can commit files and create the initial database views. And from there, you can expose those to the Looker users and they can build all kinds of reports and visualizations and stuff. I also think like dashboards are kind of good for agencies and for stakeholders. Like I recommend dashboards. Like I think you'll always make more money if the guy signing the check or the woman signing the check has a dashboard as opposed to a CLI. So I think like dashboards are a positive thing and Looker makes them very customizable and editable Yeah, and so like it does BI really well and it scales. You can aggregate across multiple sites, across a portfolio. It hooks into a big query if you want to do data warehousing or data warehousing or machine learning kind of stuff. But that being said, like it's not an ETL, like you kind of have to get it into a format that Looker can read stuff either in a MySQL database or one of their projects. And I think like it probably requires someone with at least like the willingness to be like mid-level, like MySQL competent. Like it uses its own Look ML kind of modeling language and you kind of have to learn that. But again, I think Drupal people are kind of used to like the abstracting of the database connection in code. So it's not super complicated. So I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. So it's not super complicated. You get all these connectors with it. You can hook into Google Analytics and that kind of stuff off the bat. So you don't really need to have a whole lot of code to do that. That's pretty much out of the box. And then there's partner connectors and custom stuff that you can build. And the reports obviously, it has all the stuff that you kind of expect. But again, since you're kind of embedded with Google on this, you get access to their intelligence around building maps and time series and stuff like that. So it's out of the box, it's pretty powerful. The Drupal side of things is pretty straightforward. Like you can, Google Tag Manager may get you 100% of the way there. If you have that module installed, you can install the container ID and start creating events and placing events and start your own kind of analytics. But you can take it further. You could pipe data through the data layer, which is kind of a good way to take stuff out of Chrome and ship it wherever you want. And we use it for personalization. We use a lot of these tools for personalization because we can sort of grab what's going on behavioral data and create actions based on that and show people content that we think that they want to see. So there's some other links there that might be kind of helpful for for you to look at and get a feel for it. So let's put it all together and I'll show you a couple examples that I have here. So like marketers have these funnels and funnels are ways of gauging user interest and at the top of the funnel you have people that may be interested in a product but have no idea what it really does and at the bottom of the funnel there may be comparing pricing of one your competitor to you. So where people are in the funnel matters to marketers and creating content that's relevant to each stage in the funnel is important and like one of the cool things you can do is you can sort of expose content taxonomies as meta tags put that in the page and then when someone opens that page or opens something related to that stage in the funnel you can track that and you can ship that to Looker and then you can run reports that can show like in this case obviously we're mainly maybe a little bit too focused on the top of the funnel like in Discovery and maybe we want to get more in deep because there's users that are possibly falling off because they need to see you know more comparative stuff or more in the consideration phase before moving on there and this is something that like once it's set up it's pretty easy to build you can add all sorts of dimensions to see like by region and that sort of stuff as well same thing with whatever taxonomies you can expose like if it's if you're selling merchandise or something like that or if your content has its own kind of taxonomies you can expose those as well and be able to see see where users are at or what their interests are in or what writers are more effective than others and that sort of thing and so like I also wanted to sort of explain demonstrate the simplicity of this like it is something that really a marketer just has to kind of maybe have it explained to them in one sort of slow session but after that it's pretty easy to pick up on and I wanted to sort of pretend like have a thought experiment that we are selling bicycles and we're running the sale on bikes and so we're going to create this marketing email and we're going to send it to some customers and then we want them to click on a landing page it's going to show them a bunch of bikes they're going to pick one, they're going to add it to the cart and they're going to buy it so it's pretty simple the marketer prepares the email they get ready to send it and now they want to create a funnel report to be able to track that so what they can do is they can set up the page the way they want it to like focus on the right side where they're actually doing the navigation on the left side there's some debugging stuff that's showing the tags and the events that are happening and we'll get into what to do with that in a second but so they're going to navigate and duplicate the desired ideal customer journey there they're going to go to this bike and maybe it's on sale and they're going to click on it they're going to load the product detail page and they're going to say yeah I want to buy that stupid bike and then they're going to go to check out they're going to add it to the cart that's the purchase journey they're going to do the sign in and go through the transaction there and you'll see on the left what we end up with is we end up with those four URLs and those four URLs duplicate they replicate exactly what we went through they'll view the page, view the bike, give me the bike pay for the bike so now all the marketer really has to do is to figure out how to codify those into reporting and you can do that by debugging you can do this by kind of common sense you're looking at the URL but if we look at each stage we see there's a page view event because that's what GA4 is built on and it has those words in there it's that URL so we remember that we go to the next one and then there's another event that's a page view for the product detail page with that item in there so maybe we grab that item instead and we save that and then we have two more events that are basically the add to cart and the checkout page so we take that information that we've copied and pasted somewhere and we build a report we build a funnel exploration report and we go down here to the steps and we just basically recreate those in steps in Looker or in Google Analytics one being the landing page you'll see on the right hand side that we go from 100% like all users we're using one of Google's demo sites because there's real traffic being simulated on there so we'll add that first page in there and we'll see that it begins to get filtered we add the second step in there that shows the product detail page and we see that it gets further filtered down as it's actually running the report on you know existing data we add the rest of it in there we're adding the shopping cart and then we go to the checkout which is the final stage there hopefully at this point we've replicated the entire desired transaction that we go through here we'll plug in that last filter there to the sign in .html page and that's basically it we apply that and we end up with this funnel report that shows like where people fell off at each stage in the step where carts were abandoned to begin to optimize and like literally it's like a 5 or 10 minute report that can be run for every campaign to kind of see what's going on beyond that you can add dimensions if you want to I'll add campaign here to see like maybe what happened organically to filter out that to see how effective really the marketing really was so I can go in there and I can see like what's direct versus organic versus referral if I'm using a particular URL I could filter like that according to that as well I can also add in these segments like customer segmentation is hard it's an art slash science but this uses some common models of like recency and frequency or you can create your own based on purchase amount or existing users versus new users and that's built in and so you can do that kind of segmentation and modeling and see how your campaigns perform against in those situations as well so in summary you see now he's elated because we've actually made a dent in the omnichannel complexities the marketing, the measurement obstacles and the audiences and segmentations and he's happy now and you're happy now too because you realized you were wrong I'm a stupid idiot talking about analytics analytics or fire like the American kids say I don't know if you say that but Americans do so yeah getting back to the point the hypotheses that I made I think that they can help GA is at a very usable point for teams at this point you just have to kind of get a sense of how Google does things and sort of what their mindset is how they build their products and once it clicks it makes sense I think that like the tracking and marketing like if you're doing it in real life it's now much easier to bring that into your analytics and get reports the way that marketers want them that are effective and usable and I think for those teams that are fighting for budget that are trying to do more with less or trying to build out their web portfolio or their marketing portfolio the more successful they'll be and this is I think a good way to do it that's it folks thank you I I love using Looker I've used it for years and the stuff that I did for this was pretty simple but you can do a lot of cool stuff and back in the day at one point Pantheon was using it's a way to get out of Excel like the millions of Excel files and views like we used all of those and we sort of had a corporate initiative to unify on Looker and when everyone's using the same tool then it's great like there's no you know data issues and like you become almost like organizationally committed to data validity and keeping it up I think that they like I think with with Google with acquisitions that I know about you stand a fair chance of it going nowhere and I think that in this case they've really adopted it so I think it's going to be how visualization works for Google like it's going to be their default status and you know I think I don't know if I would expect it to change like it hasn't changed a whole lot for me like it's basically look the way it was when it was its own thing but I think running custom reporting and things like that like you know they're pretty agnostic about customers you know like they're sort of like we're going to do it our way it's going to be more difficult but we think it's better and I sort of agree with them in this case it's not like learning a new mark you know mark up line or modeling language is tricky and some won't be able to do it but I think like if you at least get it started there's a lot you can do with Looker is that a double negative? I'm thumbs down on the sucks I think you know like I said analytics are like the way that it's done is getting better I think there's increasing value I think for me and it's like okay now that it's not just looking at page views and it's been that way for a while but has it's gotten easier to sort of like wrap my head around like oh these key value pairs can be kind of placed anywhere now and now I can just you know I don't need to look at any other values other than the ones that matter for me and just start tracking that like I think the average marketing department can get pretty far with this yeah I've been terrible repeating the question so do I see any big gaps in being able to visualize and analyze what I want to I would say it's pretty fair to say there's not much that I think I couldn't get into there at this point like if you go if you look at my deck and you look at the links to all of the existing dimensions that are in there it's hundreds like it's like looking at api.drupal.org like there's a ton of stuff in there and then being able to do custom stuff I think it's still like my concern is that it's still like kind of not super user friendly and you do need someone that's going to like marketing teams are like a moving train and to stop and say I'm going to learn a modeling language so I can do analytics like a lot of times it's like eh page user fine and get back to business but I do think that like with all this like there are companies that are very successful with this there's actually oddly enough there was one one of the inspirations for me getting interested in this at all was Tableau Tableau has a web team that's running all sorts of like tests on their landing pages and stuff like that and they do it all with Drupal like they have some great Drupal case studies and they were just marketers that dedicated the time to learning this and so I think it probably existed before like the ability to report on whatever you want but it required a lot of hand coding now I would say it's close to zero what you could do it's just the initial time to put into it


From Mountain View, California, it's theCUBE, covering the 15th Annual Grow Awards. Brought to you by ACGSV. Hi, Lisa Martin on the ground with theCUBE at the 15th Annual ACGSV Grow Awards at the Computer History Museum at Mountain View. Can you hear the buzz of 230 plus attendees behind me? I'm very pleased to welcome one of the ACGSV board members, Dr. Shampa Banerjee, Technology Executive and Chief Product Officer at Aeroz Digital. Shampa, thank you so much for giving us some of your time this evening. Thank you, it's a pleasure. So lots of great innovative and inspiring conversations, no doubt going on behind us. I'm trying to listen to it. Yes, so talk to us a little bit about Aeroz Digital, who you are, what you do. So Aeroz International is the largest studio in India. It produces or distributes around 60 to 70% of the films made in India, Bollywood films. So I run this streaming platform, the Netflix for Bollywood, that's what I call it. The Netflix for Bollywood, I love that, tell us more about that. So it's a streaming platform, it's a lot of the titles are from what we produce, a lot of the titles we lease from other production houses and that is the entire technology platform. And then how do you get to the, we connect the consumers rather to the entertainment, right? So the way I like to be help them discover, we help them have indulge in the whole experience. And then as they keep coming to us more and more, we've personalized the experience for them. So that's really what we give them. You know, personalization is so key. We expect it right in our lives in whatever it is that we're doing, if we're engaging with an Amazon or a Netflix or an Eros for example, we kind of now expect them, we're sort of demanding consumers, right?  So is that one of the things that you've seen maybe surprising in your career is this increasing demand for personalization? Absolutely, because you know, there's so much content out there, so much information. And unless there's a filtering mechanism that makes sense for you, people don't want to, you know, it's very hard for them. You know, so they want you to do the work for them. It's entertainment, right? So absolutely, everyone kind of expects it. It's not said, you know, it's not explicit, but that's the expectation. And obviously with the goal of delighting and retaining those customers, you as the Chief Product Officer have to listen and react to that.  I spent once a month going through all the customer comments in different platforms, right? And one of the stories I read was the 17-year-old French gal in Paris. She loves watching Bollywood because she was suffering from Lycomia and after she gets a treatment, you know, and she comes home, she wants to watch something that makes her happy. And we had some issues with our subtitles and she was having a problem watching our movies and she begged, please bring them back. And I, you know, ran out of my office, went to my team and I said, guys, this is who we wake up for every day. This is, you know, we give her joy. We give her pleasure, you know? So to me, you know, that's how, so listening to the customers to me is primary. To me, they're my biggest stakeholder. And I've told the CEO and founder that, look, at the end of the day, I leave and argue with you if it doesn't serve my customers. So that's what I believe, you know, listening to them, understanding. Of course, we do a lot of data collection and we look at what they're doing and the patterns and based on that, we make modifications.  Well, that must make you feel really good seeing and hearing and feeling the impacts that you're making and speaking of impact, you have been in the last minute or so that we have, you've been on the board at ACGSV for about the last five years. We're here tonight to honor Arista as the Outstanding Growth Award winner and Adesto Technologies as the Emerging Growth Winner, but really quickly, Shampa, what makes ACGSV worth your time? So ACG honestly is a fantastic organization and, you know, living in the Bay Area, there are many organizations, there are many events that are always going on, you know, ACG has been a place where I've seen it's a very, very, very diverse organization. Of course, I still wish there were more females, you know, but it's a very diverse organization, people of all ages, people from different walks of life, different kinds of companies, you know, and people are very, very collaborative. They help each other, you know, to do business. I've become personal friends with many of them, but, you know, the main thing is, you know, you're coming here if you're new to the Valley, especially. Whether as a company or as an individual, this is one of the best places to come to because it's not too large, it's not too small, it has the right, you know, the right number of people, and it helps you quickly on board. They'll introduce you to people, introduce you to events, and they give you what you need to kind of get started in Silicon Valley. So to me, it's like, when I joined, I joined before I was on the board, almost, I don't know, seven or eight years ago, and I've seen this whole thing transform. It's just an excellent, supportive, you know, people are very open-minded, great ideas, you know, and it's just an excellent organization, love it. So it's worth my time, you know, to take the extra hours and kind of, I would love to see this get even bigger and more diverse and more interesting. Well, it sounds like, I love how you kind of described ACGSB as the Goldilocks type of organization, not too big, not too small, just right, but we thank you so much. I wish we had more time to talk as a female in technology, but we'll have to have you back in the studio on theCUBE. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for your time. For theCUBE, I'm Lisa Martin. Thanks for watching.


Those are medieval robots. Hello, this is Sedgwick, Sedgwick Williamsburg. I'm the international translator of the ARG files and a good friend of Thomas Arkford. In the international ARG files, we look at rather international ARGs or ARGs with international languages. Today, Thomas asked me when looking into the ARG from SpongeBob SquarePants, the secret box. The ARG, made by Cyclone Stoveven or Owen Wayne, the original ARG creator, was a psychological analog horror series detailing the question from SpongeBob. What would have happened if the box from the secret box was something more secretly sinister? It was answered when a series of VHS tapes were discovered and delivered in outer facility. The tapes were marked with quotes from the episode. No SpongeBob. It's for me to know and for you to never find out. You may be an open book SpongeBob, but I will get more complicated than that. The inner machinations of my mind are an enigma. Listen up SpongeBob secret stealer pants. If you ever come near my secret box again, we won't be friends anymore. That's it SpongeBob. You have crossed the line. As of right now, this friendship is over. The quotes were from the episode, the secret box, which fit the theme of the ARG. But why did he put the quotes in? Why was the tape made, and did the creator purposefully make it multiple tapes? I had to learn more. I had to dig deeper into this cesspool of the ARG rabbit hole. Had to find out more, connect the pieces and find out more. It seemed risky, but I was bound to find out more about the ARG. Even if it means tech issues. Yeah, my VCR has been experiencing tech issues because the goddamn composite RCA cables were rusted due to a leak from a recent storm. 210 bucks and a new VCR and RCA cables later. One more attempt, and the tape loaded in. The first one started with the first clip. One of the quotes was from the first tape. No, SpongeBob. It's for me to know, and for you to never find out. You may be an open book, SpongeBob, but I'm a bit more complicated than that. The inner machinations of my mind are an enigma. Oh yeah? Well, I got plenty of secret stuff, too. Uh, I've got my secret socks on. And my secret Gary's bull my secret TV and my secret TV channel. The colored bars on the screen flipped to a black screen, and then immediately to a message. It was in an alien language. Great. Luckily, Thomas linked me some generators and IMDb for the information. The translation is, don't look inside the secret box. There's a reason why some secrets deserve to be hidden. Don't say I warned you. Then another message in the same alien language appears with the sound of static. I didn't bother translating the second one. The episode continued as normal until it showed a frame of Patrick and SpongeBob with no faces. It kept flashing a frame of Patrick with a spiral on his body moving. The screen flashed the words run and save yourself. Then the frame explodes in static with Patrick screaming in a shrill high pitched tone mixed in with flickering static. It reminds me of when Thomas looked at that other ARG that had SpongeBob do the exact same as Patrick's doing.  Everyone in the facility came out and inspected the generator. I could faintly hear my British boss, Maximus Winston, say to the people. It looks like someone electrocuted the generator. It'll take weeks for the studio to get power back. Well, this is gonna be split in parts due to the internet being off. I'll catch back when the internet comes back and look at the second, third, fourth, and possibly fifth tape. We are just getting started.


Hello, Anat, Nicolay. Good morning. Good afternoon. Hello. We're just going to wait for us to join. Well, for more than all Taylor is traveling, so I don't know if he's going to join. Oh, that's right. He said something about like the conference, right? Big 5G or something? Yeah, okay. Big 5G event. Okay, let's see. Hi, Victor, how are you? Good. All my windows were on top of each other. I was trying to locate myself here. Sorry. No worries, like the first hour of the day.  Yeah, you're earlier. I should be better. I've had a couple cups of coffee already, but I'm still, it's probably more Monday. Yeah, I couldn't attend the last meeting because I was attending the open source summit. So probably I will have a little bit disconnect what happened last week, but yeah, I'm just looking for the meeting notes here just to kind of jog my memory as well. I can stick it in there for anyone just to quick access. I know it's in the, it's in the meeting invitation, but just make it handy for everyone. CSPs for the KubeCon, okay. CFP for KubeCon, yeah. Do you want to submit a CFP proposal for CNF Working Group? Well, actually I can start sharing like that. I was thinking the way a little bit more, but yeah, probably. I don't know if more people are going to join to the meeting. Yeah. I can actually, and I mean, I guess I guess I want to add, I can add something to the agenda. Please. I'll add it here in a second. Let me just give me a second. Okay. I just added an item there. I just I can, if we want to talk about that. I can do that. Okay. It is six after the hour and apparently also Tom can also join. Okay. I guess that we can start. So, well, apparently Taylor and others are attending the, the, by G event. So hopefully they can share something after the event. The next thing is like, I don't know if you have plans to to submit some papers for, for the elephant developer testing forum. This virtual events obviously. It's a great opportunity to share ideas or best practices in this case. Do you have plans to submit something? Is that to me or to just everyone? I think for everyone, like, yeah. When's that close? Oh my gosh. Yeah, that's very soon. Yeah, actually, if someone wants to submit it something, yeah, we can maybe submit together or like. Yeah, I mean, I would be interested. Victor, if you were interested, I mean, I, if you want to set like, I would be happy to just maybe shut up a short call and just discuss a little bit more. I'm working in an elephant in the, in the anecdote assured program and we've had long had conversations about, you know, CNF, you know, there's sort of, there's work going on and sort of CNS over on this in the CNCF and there's a very course infrastructure that should support CNS and there's some requirements for those within LFN. I've been working in the past with Taylor, of course, trying to get, you know, strengthen the collaboration between both organizations so that there's a less fragmentation, if you will. And so, you know, I don't have the answer. I think that's one of the things I'm thinking and I'd be happy to maybe discuss it a little bit more. Maybe not on this call here but, you know, if you if you're interested I could, I can reach out to you and maybe we can have a first class and then see if there's anything that we might want to bring up to the, to the group. No, that's awesome. Actually, very interesting. So, well, you have been also in the nephew discussions. Yeah. You're so aware like that now we are like considering like, I don't know if that is the first or third pillar of the provisioning like to consider like not only the workloads also deploying through nephew like the whole infrastructure. I guess if we can. I think that we can combine all these areas like, as you said, like to unify and try to make all these things like online. So, yeah, but yeah, definitely quite interesting to do that. Yeah, I mean I have, you know that I'll just throw it out as another example I mean that you know we for those for those of you aware with Silva, you know, it's a, I believe that there are plans at some point to offer, you know to do CNF sort of validations there and using the test suite from CNF and I, you know, I, it's great. I just my, my concern is always about these slightly variation variations and different views and sort of how to be. I use the term, align where we can and only diverge where you have to, because otherwise it's just, you know, creates so many different views of what it what are the best practices at you know specifically for CNF. Yeah, you get different, you get different answers if you go to different places and I think that's a that is of course a little bit of a challenge. So the more we can do to collaborate I think is is my main, the main thing that I be interested in trying to form some kind of session around you know how do you how do you bring how do you bring those closer into alignment while still allowing the flexibility to have different opinions, you know, have an opinion at a view in different places. If you look at LFN, for example within aniquette I mean we've managed with some of the work we've been doing to align on the first sort of essential, and I know I'm mixing between the CNF test suite and the working group here but I think some of the work we do here is just translate into tests in the test suite. And there today exists, I think it's around 15 essential tests. We've managed on aniquette to align on on 14 out of the 15, which I think is actually, you know, those very encouraging. That's those small steps I think we can do to help, you know, to contribute if we have new ideas to bring them back and sort of say are these applicable for everyone or are they really an opinionated view that it should be only in one place. I don't know if that makes sense if it doesn't sorry guys. It's still Monday. No that's fine I mean, so trying to understand like your ideas to more like an open discussion or like a co-fraction or. Maybe something like a call for action. An open discussion. Yeah, let's let me do this. I can I'll reach out to you and see if we can maybe just set aside 30 minutes and just discuss some ideas and see if we can come up with something that would make sense. Because I don't have a clear view on it right now and I can probably share why if we meet. Okay. I didn't make like once say something or. Yeah. Oh, no. Okay, no, no worries. Also Taylor is here. Hi. Thank you. Hi, I'm not sure if it's already discussed. I would also like to have a discussion on between horizontal and vertical cloud. These vendors bringing their own cloud solutions versus building one big cloud, where all these can be on board as different than it's not sure if it's already discussed in this working group. I mean, yeah, this is a, I mean, I guess it's like with CNFs and I guess it's a valid topic to discuss here as well. So, yeah, I don't know, like, do you want to discuss right now like as part of the agenda items or like, what is your. If there is interest, yeah. Okay. So, I don't have to, we don't have too much items in the agenda so let's put it like, what is here in the agenda and maybe what do you think like. I mean, the rest of the topics that we have is not too much. I don't think that we're going to take us so much time. And definitely we can save some time for discussing this particular topic. All right. So the next quite events is like the open round summit. If I understand this is your virtual event. So, and after that we have the open source summit. So, yeah, also I guess like there's going to be a one. The regional summit as we had in Vancouver. And the other two events are like MWC and KubeCon. So, Taylor, did you mention something about like a KubeCon or like the cloud native telco day as a collocated event or like you don't have information yet. We're not confirmed. We're wanting to get sponsors for the event. And you're going to try to make it happen. I mean it seems like it's been well received every time so I think we need to keep doing it. And if we don't have, if we have enough sponsorship then we'll probably end up with potentially a full day. And if we get a half day only then we'll probably do the community gathering like we did and keep kind of you. Okay. Okay, nice to know. Is the sponsorship prospectus valid. This is the new one or it's I would just use it as a, I don't, I don't know that it's covers in a, I'd have to look. But you can use it just kind of as a gentle idea basis and we'll scan and get a new one. Okay. All right. Those are the old events that we have. So there's any anyone missing. Please feel free to add it as part of the list. Even. No. So, okay. Just a quick. Yeah. You probably are connecting from a phone or something. I have opened the prospectus it's just a relevant information for any for the North America. So, yeah, it's, it's okay. Yeah, okay. Thanks. Thanks. Okay, so that give us time. I don't know if we have PR to review like, or something, but I guess, much better to start like checking the items that we have here in the agenda. So, I'm not, this is the topic that you want to discuss about this or like. I think that the topic I proposed comes under this year's. But, but mostly on the infrastructure side. Okay. So basically the point that you want to discuss is like, having a CNF which is applied among multiple data centers like how can, what is the best practices to deploy that. Do we deploy that CNF is vendors incorrectly or like. No, mostly infrastructure perspective.  That's a, that is a vendor who is providing by the solution that is a vendor who's providing ran. So they all have their own Kubernetes distribution. It's a cloud network function versus the operator having a unified cloud. Let's say from open shift or be aware or range. This will create silos, right? I mean, as a operator, each of these products have its own lifecycle management. It'll be difficult to manage again. So how is the industry addressing this? Let's say the same CNF can be, might be certified on both open shift and VMS instead of having their own cloud solution from each of the vendors. Isn't it possible to or consider it as a good practice to have one unified cloud where all these CNFs can be on boarded instead of having so many different deployments or different versions. Okay. I guess that's reminding a little bit the, the topic which was discussed during the, the guiding event. So we're like. It was presented that were. Let's take it the case for, for 55 or five deployments like where you have like a multiple CNFs. And every single CNF is using different vendors which has different infrastructure requirements. So, I don't think that I don't know that maybe I'm lacking lacking of knowledge but I guess like I just assuming that mostly like the industry has been using a single infrastructure vendor, maybe I could be grown like someone who has better expertise on that can chime here. So, so, so I think it's like, we haven't, that's that's why we have a lot of initiatives, especially around like where we're trying to desegregate these and establish certain open standards and interfaces where like components can interact. So I can explain maybe in terms like I'm in from nephew perspective because it's the, the last thing that I have been involved. So we are trying to define infrastructure as a, as part of the, the, the, the CNF requirements. So, so when you express your desire, like what is your, your 5G deployment desire. So you consider like the infrastructure as part of the requirements. So eventually in this case nephew is going to take the decisions and he's going to try to make the deployments. One of the, the key tools that we are considering for, for that particular exercise is cluster API. So the idea is to consider as part of the package, the certain custom resources of cluster API and deploy the application, try to solving the requirements of the CNF in this particular case. It is something that we're like still experimenting and certain things that we haven't reached that point. Obviously, this is very new and haven't explored yet, but I don't know like someone has another experiences or like some of the ways that the industry has been mitigating this particular case. If I understood what you just said, as long as the Kubernetes cluster can be orchestrated using cluster API. So it hardly matters if the Kubernetes distributions are from different vendors as long as it meets the requirements. Yes, exactly. So basically cluster API has different providers. So and in that way you can express those requirements based on the application. But yeah, I mean, now we have like a, I mean cluster API has been there for a while. So now the major difference that we are trying to do is like we are trying to integrate like that particular tool with the nephew ecosystem. Similarly, we can express the 5G deployment like as any other like Kubernetes resource like where you express your intent. I don't know if that makes sense, but for now we're working on that and it's showing like a good results. The only problem that we have is like right now cluster API only focus on deploying Kubernetes clusters. So, and there are some cases where we need to interconnect those clusters like so, for now I don't know if we have like a tool which can help us to interconnect those clusters using the same model that we use like a, what is the name? Kariam, Kubernetes resource model. So it's something that probably we have to face it in next common releases. Okay, I think nephew would try to address the current challenges because I heard from different operators that we have one from Ericsson, the one from Nokia, and they also have their own based on OpenShift. And it's really hard to convince let's say Ericsson or other players to move from their own Kubernetes distribution to OpenShift. They'll come up with so many saying that it's not good for that's not tested or these things that would come up with. So hopefully with nephew and with standardized cluster API, I mean with cluster API it can be addressed. Yeah, exactly. And also now like a Kubernetes has this LTS concept so not only you depends on the cluster vendor, like you also depends on the cycles that they have. So if for some reason they don't want to move forward, they haven't applied all the patches because they are like Kubernetes distribution. So you have to heavily depend on them like on their own cycles. So, yeah, it's a good point like that. One more question if you're okay. On nephew. So, so we have nephew, we have VNFM from vendors. So is nephew trying to get into the VNFM space, you know, directly orchestrating the CNFs instead of letting the SVNFM orchestrate the components. I'm not really sure because I'm afraid that at some stage there is nephew beside slightly overlapping the domain orchestrator or VNFM. I think if I have to define nephew in few words. I could say like a nephew is. So it's like the tool which is bringing the, the GitOps best practices like for for CNFs. So, I mean, obviously I'm trying to put a lot of so so in that way like it's not pretending to be like a replacement like like probably is trying to connect a lot of the things that they are there. I mean, there are people who are like connecting with on app. So with all our existing ecosystem in open source ecosystem. So, yeah, but obviously the way that for example in on app was managing the life cycle of the VNFs was like a very manual thing so it's like a lot of interaction between different operators. In these cases, the interaction is more like a get up using GitOps best practices like. And the Git Hooper or Git Hooper or any Git server as a source of true. Okay, okay, got it. There, there are some parts that they're looking at orchestrating deployment of kubernetes. It's at least in the future part of nephew. They're focusing on onboarding and management of the CNF life cycle, including any type of capabilities needed for the networking and anything. That may require the CNF and attributes and needs in the cluster. So that could be expanding a cluster with certain things. And that's where they're looking at operators and other parts that may do it more administrative things on the cluster than just deploying a CNF. So they're getting into that they're at least writing up things and the documentation for potential future management around orchestration of clusters and multiple clusters. I don't know if if that'll ever come to be something that they focus on but it's it's definitely talked about in some of the calls and it's in the documentation. But management of the environment and and stuff is as part of it, the CNF onboarding would be the main thing. Yeah, so that's true like also about nephew. In two weeks, I guess we're going to have the first release. So that is a long, a long things to do a lot of a lot of things to implement in that particular project. So, also move a lot of moving parts. It's promising a lot of things. But yeah, it's also a good place where we can like bring these kind of concerns and say like, well, what if our, what is what about this case like are we are others in this particular this current issue, like are you addressing all these things. Okay. Well, Taylor, I couldn't attend the previous meeting so I don't know if you have something, or I don't know if you discuss something from the previous meeting that you want to bring in this particular Nothing really from the previous ones that Nikolai did you put forward any of the stuff around best practices that might apply to Kubernetes extensions and plugins like CNIs and other things. Yeah. No, not yet. Not yet. Right. So that this would be some relation to thinking about like what is nephio covering and other projects that are dealing with when you're looking at GitOps, how to use the patterns and stuff with GitOps for doing deployments. So you're going to start thinking of things that are not just deploy the application onto Kubernetes with without thinking about the platform. So there's some parts that end up thinking about what is, what are you configuring on the platform and stuff like that. Then you start looking at things like extensions to Kubernetes and everything else. So there's Nikolai had brought up CNI plugins like Cillium and there's other ones that I think would come in. So how do we talk about projects like that and best practices that we think would be good for the community to adopt in general. So we kind of and Victor a few months ago but we were talking about maybe highlighting best practices from nephio. So that could be some areas. Things related to maybe that the boundary between ran and and then core core components, and how do we, what, what would we think would be practices and maybe technology to look at that are some of those edges. And even we could even think about like Stefan run ran because now there's more and more adoption of running Kubernetes on the edge and everything well how are you going to do it on radio oh ran is digging into that. But I think that would be something to explore. A lot of the practices we've been focused on are general practices that would be for any type of workload, not even specific to CNS. So we could look at what are some specific needs of CNS that aren't as common for other applications. And then how would we. What are some patterns and practices that we would recommend. If you're running in a Kubernetes environment, then how do you best take advantage of those. Yeah. And I think Nikolai the stuff around. What would be one of the areas that gets in a more important networking applications and networking environments. But that that might get into workloads taking advantage of those and then what should that be expecting. Yep. And if we're going to have projects like psyllium that are going to go through and say hey we're following best practices. And that could community agrees on running in a Kubernetes environment. And what are those so that you know that they could be written up and maybe they become part of the CNF certification so that potentially profiles so maybe we have workload that are important like profiles and then something that would cover projects like psyllium that would maybe wouldn't be considered workloads but are important part of the environment and we want to have it where they can say hey we're following best practices. So the core topic that I was thinking around like maybe it's not related with little more CNFs and all these things. It's just about the how to manage the. I mean, a few years ago, we didn't have configuration tools like Ansible, Pop, HF all of these things. So that's why those things work really well because we have to manage all the operation tasks. So, so it were those were great and and and we have a great progress on them. But now that assuming that most of the deployments are using Kubernetes as a as a standard like the new cloud operating operating system. So, I just think about it like she still is still making sense to to do certain operations with Ansible and all of these configuration tools or makes more sense to take advantage of Kubernetes. Talking about, for example, you can, if you need like a to to install like a kernel module, for example. So there are ways to do it the same task using Ansible or you can take advantage of Kubernetes and do the same operation. Same thing for installing things on the host. I know that definitely that somehow violates the principle that we are saying I'm not trying to use privilege containers but it's possible to do it. So, I don't know if you want to talk about this particular topic where it could be a good practice or bad practice to use Kubernetes as a as a configuration tool, or keep using the same tools like traditional tools like Ansible. What do you think maybe Taylor or someone need one to mention something about this topic. And I, I think folks can get to caught up on the technology and tools like Ansible. For example, and versus the reason why you're using them and the patterns that I think can be applied with different tools. So GitOps doesn't require flex CD, for instance, get the patterns behind GitOps are older than the term GitOps. So you could see people using the same type of principles that you're saying with those type of deployments and management for the configuration and all of that. For a long time before probably before Kubernetes I would say, and I think those are more important to really understand. Then looking at the technology or tools or whatever has to do with does, does the tool let you follow the patterns and practices that you want to utilize that you think are going to be good. I guess stepping back what is the problem that you're going to solve. And then do these, this is technology help you or is it going to be harder because there's definitely some technology where you could say you can use it will following any pattern but it may fight you or it may. It may not be designed to follow those patterns so when we talk about Kubernetes and cloud native. This is an implementation of the principles and practices that existed before Kubernetes, but they're baked in so it means when you look at Kubernetes as a framework, and you want to follow cloud native practices. It's going to just help you along. So when you're looking at configuration management, deployments, whatever else will then, you know, Ansible would just be one tool, and you can go. How does it follow those. So Ansible and and many of similar ones can be potentially simple enough and they allow you to have a domain has a domain. You can create your own domain language, where you could build Ansible playbooks and stuff using its terms to do things in a way that are following best practices and patterns that that you're wanting to follow. I'm not against using Ansible and you can see some of these configuration management tools starting to come back again. They seem to be pushed to the side by some other tools are coming forward and now they seem to be coming back and maybe being better integrated.  But for example, like, I think the naming was the puppet agent. If you compare some of the functionality that this particular agent is doing in the servers. It's quite similar like the what cubelet does in in the worker notes like I mean it's constantly checking if there is something new to do and once received instruction applies the application. Obviously more things to do it like a cubelet in this is connecting containers and doing a lot of stuff. And Pope agent definitely manage files and self packages and things like that but I guess I guess in a sense that the functionality that's his particular these two things are like doing is, is pretty much a similar in a lot of things. So, yeah, so maybe the the major difference is like the level of adoption that Kubernetes has so so probably not probably few years ago. There were just few people using Kubernetes in their own deployments, but now that the massive massive of the deployments are using Kubernetes probably is not the case like most of them has Kubernetes on it so it's not a problem doesn't have that particular agent or behavior in the server. But yeah probably yeah the is it better to have like a choices and tools I'm not saying that we don't have to stop using answer or any configuration tool, of course, there is their own use cases. But I guess, I don't know if we we should start like relying more in in having the fact that maybe we have Kubernetes as a deployment. And take advantage of those tools there and try to minimize the, the, the, the corner cases. Like, I don't know, like, probably is this is all depends on the use case every single use case and probably has different scenarios. We'll have any other topic in the agenda. I don't know if someone wants to bring something. I had, I did actually have a, I think it's, it feels like the timing is kind of good. I have a there's a discussion item at the bottom which I just had put into the agenda. Yeah. Yeah. So, basically what I shared this with Taylor a week or so ago just, and I don't know if anyone else has, if this is just me or if there's others who might think this could be a good idea so this is really just a discussion item. Having participated here in the CNF working group. Great for that matter. One of the things, you know, I feel like I have a pretty good view on what we're what our, what our goal is of course identifying best practices, and I think I ran into. I was looking in our repo today and I just found a nice little reminder, if I would almost. In fact, I'll do this I'll just take a picture and share it in this in the chat so I don't have to screen share my screen. It was a little bit along the topic of what we what you were just discussing now. Give me a second here, I'm going to put this in the chat. I can give you access to chair. Okay, yeah, if I'll do that that's fine. Bear with me for a second. So, yeah, so I just, I was just noting when you were talking, I think maybe there's some relevance to this as well. This is from our, this is from our repo here this is some documentation we have on sort of how we work with communities and off to the scope, right. And so I think we were talking a little bit about infrastructure and we're talking about, you know what this group is focusing on how do I build CNS how do I run CNS deploy manage lifecycle. We've been talking a little bit about nephew. What I wrote in the notes or an agenda today was really just question about, would it make sense or would it be a value to this group to somehow try and build a view of what we, you know, we have categories and I'm just going to go to that for a second here so bear with me. I think it's here to yeah so we have these different categories. We are, we've been working with identifying best best practices. And I'm wondering if it would make sense to somehow try to summarize. What are the areas where we feel that, you know, if we were to sort of put a judgment call on this area is fairly well understood, it's green, there are best practices. There are versus other areas that may be underdeveloped. And we're just a tool to try to help us understand where our best practices needed because I think sometimes for at least for myself it feels like we're looking for best practices. And I just like to have an organized way of seeing where are the challenging areas. And I think you were touching on a little bit Victor about life cycle management there are new tools that are being that are coming. And I know that we're not less so looking at the tools but we're looking at the patterns and the best practices. So it's just a, just a thought, if someone would be interested to think that would create some value to identify the, you know, what are the areas in terms of CNS that are underdeveloped needs more work needs more best practices to address some issues and that. If someone else feels the same way very curious to hear your thoughts. To be honest, I never think about it but now that you present this. So, so what could be from your opinion like what could be the best way to the criteria that we can use like a number of best practices or the quality of the best practice or. Yeah, that's a good, that's a good point. I don't have the full view, but I think maybe starting with simply. It's fairly simple to identify what we have and what you know we we have categorized things already so I think just having a reflection on that and then certainly maybe looking at, you know from a community. We can just sort of rely on ourselves to say so what are the areas where we feel, you know, there's only two but let's just use an example hypothetical this category only has two best practices. Is there a reason is it because we're not having a, is there new challenges there or other challenges that remain and even if we don't have the best practice we can identify some of those challenges that just, I can't help but I think this might help us, you know, identify areas where we need to solicit, you know, and whether that's from CSPs or vendors, you know, trying to understand what are the challenges, or that you're having how do we, you know, so that we can reflect on on on possible best practices for that. It's just, it's just an idea otherwise it feels like it's does anyone have any best practices, you know, it's a, it's great and I think we have identified them. We've identified some. I think from a more maybe structured approach to, you know, where, where are the biggest challenges that remain and maybe identify out new new categories that we haven't really touched on. I have some, some kind of quick comment here my mean earlier earlier in this, in this call. I remember who brought up the topic of, okay, but vendor X is delivering their CNS only certified against their own Kubernetes. And this clearly is a sign of not following any best practices right because essentially this means that their distribution is fine tuned and the CNF is fine tuned for. Much between the Kubernetes distribution with whatever plugins and whatever it comes there and the CNF so I mean I'm not saying that we shouldn't invest into the best practices. I just somehow feel that. I mean, the real world is not really following them and then the question is, I mean, is anyone practicing these practices I guess that's, that's the question. I would, I would love to have all of these, you know, being followed and so on and so forth. And we have examples of CNS being certified which obviously are following best practices. I mean, you cannot pass the certification. But, yeah, I mean, this is more like a observation not not not that it adds anything. Yeah, no, I, I, I, well, for myself at least I, I think I agree with what you're saying. And I think in some ways this was again backed for at least in my thinking was that we, you know, it's almost like you can see this is another way to think about what I was was kind of suggesting there are trying to discuss is almost a maturity, maybe model right and somehow trying to come to because if why aren't they following those those best practices then. And I'm sure there's many different reasons. Yeah, exactly. I agree. Is there, is there any disconnect between like whoever has to implement them and what we, what we think because I mean, I haven't been to each and every discussion here but more or less know and understand what we mean when we're doing the best practices, and it's somehow kind of I don't know, ideal world where, you know, we have stateless services and everything according to the theory, but that then in the end, maybe in reality is just not feasible I don't know, I mean, I don't know. Yeah, something that probably we have to somehow try to go and listen to a real world vendors of the CNA side. Yeah. Ideally we're solving someone's we're helping to solve problems or pains when someone's saying I'm having a hard time with this. I'm trying to help with that. So, a lot of problems in the past. Well, relating to what is Kubernetes doing or what is cloud computing, one of the main topics is interoperability between multiple clouds at the start of this call talking about different clouds, and then how do you ensure that things are going to work between them. If someone's providing their own environment, whatever, so that the interoperability there is part of it, interoperability between the different applications or CNS that are going to work together. I mean, we have it split in different ways this these actors. And the interoperability I think can be applied at different layers, including the how the CNF in for operator, how do I run the in for a deploy and manage. Well, my in for actually has extensions and stuff because the workloads. Well, then how are you doing in different environments because most of the service providers are running multi cloud. You know, maybe their own and then running somewhere else. Interoperability, but if we'll start with who's the actor, having a problem, and then where are they having the problem then we could probably dig in there versus the even like this section is just talking about right now it's just CNS developers there's a another document that's best practices for CNF developers so. This is only one actor, and then some CNF developers, they actually care about how to run and operate it because they're the ones building it and they need to know how is it working so they actually start thinking of this. So in some some ways they could be the actor is also a CNF operator. And then how do I consume it okay well, you may have CNF developers that are also thinking about that. And so these areas. This, this is kind of to split and think about the practices that may overlap, you may have a microservice that also needs to think. Okay, what is a configuration life cycle, or upgrade ability of a microservice why don't we have these. Just an area to really think about the best practice, but the best practice may actually be in multiple areas. The more important thing is, who is it applying to whenever you're talking with someone, and they're saying hey I'm having a problem. And we're going to go. Well, let's think about best practices that we know. Are any of the best practices that we know do they apply. I think if we have a, a actor that's putting forward some pain or problem that they're having. It may be easier than just talking about what best practices have we written up or not written up. Yeah, no. Yeah, I agree with you. And that's the categories is great I mean that's just you know it's categorization but I think to your point it comes back to so what are the.  The challenges that if we were to sit in a room and just start to say so what are the challenges well the challenges someone already mentioned that there's many different opinionated versions of Kubernetes. So every time we're going to show that we're actually you know it can can be deployed there and and and it works. You know there's a lot of certification work that has to go on. Some of its overlap and very similar some of it's different. What about orchestration so is the end customer looking to orchestrate the CNF using own app or using nephew or using something else. That's that those are so there I think my point is trying to understand what some of those categories in terms of the areas of a CNF that not as not only the CNF vendor who's creating it they're creating it for the purpose of to be used by someone. And so what are the, what are the challenges of those different environments you're going into and I guess I was trying to think about what are those areas if we can sort of massage out some of those areas and try to understand where are the challenges. Because then you could start to look at what you know what best practices do we have what do we not have an effort to get a list of challenges probably be a good place. I'm actually headed towards the big five G event today so I'll try to listen and and write some up. Some of the stuff that I've been hearing are from the consumer side, the service providers themselves, and looking at how are they managing so some of those are going to be overlapping down here, but writing up the challenges. So if we can have wherever they are. I'm not really worried at what layer just who's having a challenge if you're in a Kubernetes environment. What type of challenges are you having. And if you're a vendor, and you're having challenges deploying or you're having a challenges integrating and working with another vendor or running on Kubernetes is problematic with some other requirements that you have somewhere else. Those are the what we need to write up right we made it to the top of our. Thanks folks. Yeah yeah thank you. See you next week. Yeah.