We're delighted I'm going to do the introduction even as our guest speaker joins us and I don't even have an opportunity. I'll dispense with the opportunity that I would otherwise have to say hello and shake hands so I'll do that afterwards, but we're delighted to be joined today by former member of MP and chair of the UK government's energy digitalization task force Laura sand CBE and Laura's very professional experience includes time spent in journalism, public relations and advocacy, but obviously very well known as for her service as a member of parliament in the constituency between 2010 and 2015. You know there's loads of stuff written down here about Laura that I could tell you, but I'm going to just cut that if that's all right, we can come back to it afterwards. And she has a huge amount of offer on the agenda that we're interested in. I'm going to dispense with any further introductions I know she won't mind that. And you can check her out on LinkedIn anyway and all over the place so delighted to welcome straight to the podium from the airport, not her fault that she was delayed. You're so welcome, Laura sounds. Thank you. Thank you all so much and many apologies for a plane two hours sitting at Gatwick and, but just wonderful to be here in Dublin so thank you very much. And thank you to Mary, who was the star of the show so I'm nearly here as the follow up. It's lovely to see John we work together on the Northern Irish advisory group for that for their energy strategy. Thank you all very much. And so I think I have been asked to do a little tour of what possibly what I think probably the energy sector is going to look like in the future. As a recovering politician I am. I have just about re entered the human race. When I left politics I decided instead of being one of these sort of broad political people I've become a plumber. Ultimately, it's the plumbing of the energy system and how we look at it that really needs to change. Not that I'm very good when the system goes wrong or the boiler, but when it comes to energy I have a few contestable ideas and I hope that you will contest them. I've done quite a lot of work with Imperial College with lots of other collaborators and ESP was one of the funders of one of my reports on regulation. But this was really this report that we did and it will be this is a bit of a synthesis was about the recosting how we've got to look at this system quite differently, and how the system changes are going to absolutely help us to have different business models and so ESP this is an interesting proposition possibly from your perspective, but also digitalization and modernization. Now you can start throwing tomatoes at this particular moment but you know something, the energy sector, pretty old fashioned, not quite there, you know, at the forefront of how the system works. So here we are. This is a politician sitting here, Dr do little, looking at the past and looking at the future we've got in the past, big is beautiful. This is great thing by Ari Sargent designed and built by engineers, bastardized by economists and marketers, the power industry continues to deliver one of the most successful consumer confusion programs of all time. And he is an energy supplier in New Zealand so there you get he does know our biggest beautiful we've got blind man's bluff. We have, you know, an energy system operator in the UK. They think they know what the system looks like and then suddenly the lights went out in 2019, and suddenly we find out they didn't know what the assets were on the system. The big is beautiful we're moving to a very new world, and it's a really difficult psychological change. I have to have something Monty Python on it. Blessed of the cheese makers, because actually what we're talking about now is distributed system design, much, much more. Many more capital assets rather than commodities transportation you're in the network business other people are in transmission. The networks cost is going to start to become a very very different thing. So what does this really mean is, we have got a new cost a new value, and a new price for energy going forward. So we currently live in a world of the commodity, wonderful electron, but actually the commodity is going to go down in value. The capital costs that again have to fit everywhere within the system in your driveway on your roof in the IRC on your transmission, the capital is what is going to be the core cost of the system. And not a zero marginal cost of an electron, but a much much lower one. And just think about this 1990 a terabyte of data was a million dollars. Today, it's five cents. Now I'm not saying the electrons going to go there, but we have got this very, very different system very capital intensive. So at the consumer side, the consumer is going to have to access these assets. And so what are we going to have to do. They're never going to be able to do that off the back of a commodity. We're going to have to look at financial service products we're going to have to look at different business propositions. And the great thing that's going on in Spain at the moment which is an even in villages, the network company is actually saying to the, to everybody they've all got solar right that to everybody electricity is going to cost you absolutely nothing. Absolutely nothing. So what we're going to do is buy a subscription to our storage capacity. So we become a very, very similar to cloud storage. And that's also where we're going to get different business models that are going to be weirdly, although I know centralized and biggest beautiful people don't believe this but actually the more distributed system we have potentially. And I think in reality is more resilient. If we set it up properly, but where is the value and the value doesn't sit in those silos the value sits in the optimization which is the middle. And that is what, in many ways the sector has not been always able to pick up. It hasn't been the most digitally savvy it hasn't been the most aggressive when it comes to new technologies. So demand and supply will become equal, equal value, not necessary scale, but value within the system. So how can we pick that up. Now I used to show this to Ofgem our regulator, and Ofgem was in the middle, looking very confused, and they all got a little bit upset about this, but this is the new in many ways paradigm of if you're running an energy sector, whether you're a regulator, whether you're a large company is how are you going to manage all these different variants. And it's a very new set of requirements for the energy sector. And we've got a lot of different dynamics all being shown here. But in the UK, we have 400 people who run the energy sector. It's weird. They all know each other golf handicaps. And they are moving to 100 million actions and assets on the system. So if you think every EV car can do three things, export, import and store. If you think that the number of EVs on the system by 2035 are energy system operators says will be the equivalent of three nuclear power stations. We have got a very different system, and either we can ignore the 100 million and have to build absolutely extortionate amount of infrastructure, or we have to bring it into the system. So what have we got, we've got a new system where whether I find it fascinating. I know everybody in energy needs to understand the weather. But you know what's fascinating is, it doesn't take price signals it doesn't follow legislation. It's got no we have no agency over weather. We have a lot more agency over demand. If we don't sense as sensitively capital is king blending assets so I've come back to my cheese makers. There are a lot of people in the energy sector who are commodity makers and I would call them milk farmers. I'm not sure it's the same in Ireland, but certainly the same in the UK. Milk farmers get screwed. They get absolutely pushed right to the edge. If you become a cheese maker you start to add value. And how do we create blended products and assets balancing costs are absolutely rocketing, rocketing, and to be frank, between balancing costs constraints, etc. If the UK consumer really knew that. I think we would have a lot more problems but our ESO says by six by 2035 60% will be done by demand. That is a massive increase distributed asset values as I said EV cars and value of demand will be the new creator. And you could say that there is a new competitive pressure between those who deliver optimized demand and those who are looking at optimized supply and where that tension lies. So, the risks and opportunities, we've got the big stuff or you will know about the big stuff. We've got the clever stuff which I think the energy sector is embarking on and starting and I'm sure Mary told you will have a lot of good ideas about how the ESB is doing the space, etc. The new things is really the small. So how do we create distributed asset models. The difficult which is my old life which I refuse to now talk about so that's something that your public affairs people and all of that will have to deal with but planning being absolutely the most delightful challenge I think for everybody. So there is the different and the different is customers, different forms of fuel biodiversity and communications and I don't know whether Mary talked about this. But if we are to have a digitalized system, communications systems are going to have to be co planned. They're going to have to be as resilient as the energy system and I will come on to a little example of that. I think things could have gone a bit pear shaped. And these are the three drivers of change new market player. That is demand. Suddenly this customer who's been pretty. I don't know whether it's the same in in in our but in the UK we have divided 60 million people into six archetypes. Right. Amazon divides the UK into 150,000 different archetypes. So do we really think that six is is going to be adequate do we really understand our customer, and do we really understand what our customer is prepared to do, and how we should serve that. The second is about digitalization fundamentally but it's about different business models blending results optimization. And the third, which is probably one of the most important and I only skip on this at the end, but I do, you know you've got fabulous talents in Ireland, but just start to think beyond the energy sector for that talent because that is what we're going to need when we're needing logistics people all sorts of different talents that need to come in to deliver a very different system. So I'm going to just start start with demand. So I believe, and I'd love to hear other view but anyway I would believe that going forward, demand is equal to supply. And physics tells us that markets should be designed around it, but currently, actually, the demand is seen as sort of a little bit the victim, the energy sector is a bit like a hose pipe and it just sort of comes and sprays you with energy. And there isn't really that that thing. The, these are the costs that 10% under 10% in the UK went to demand side assets in out of the so called the UK government funding. I did some metrics, and I won't go into this in too much detail, but if you want to look at these metrics, this is apparently I've been told the first time ever has ever been done, and that is, we have compared demand and supply assets, according to whole system costs, not according to the levelized cost of electricity. But as these other costs such as networks, balancing costs, etc come up if you look at the whole system costs. Then, and you start to compare demand and supply. What do you get every time you put a demand asset on the system, you lower whole system costs. That's really, really interesting. And that is something that I'm working with World Economic Forum with the base modeling team, our departments modeling team did this with me in frontier economics. And we're trying to get the treasury to start to understand that these demand assets actually lower whole system costs. And we're trying to find around customers now it's quite interesting because again, and again you can all shoot me but I do think that we're quite far behind on turn in terms of understanding customers really designing our products and propositions. I do a lot of work in the food sector. The food is really, really interesting when I was little, we had something called the milk marketing board, the beef marketing board, the marketing board, right and they set prices. And you go to your little shop around the corner, and you would be a price taker and a choice taker and actually very grotty stuff was there. And you couldn't say supermarkets are good or bad and there are lots of issues around that. But they sort of broke that up. But they then captured me totally. But now, actually, the patterns in food are starting to become dispersed so I go for my base load. And then I will have a bit of self supply right like growth and carrots. You don't want to eat them, but I grow them. And then I have some special supply which is, you know, maybe a veg box or something delivered to me specifically and I can go to the farmers market. This is all designed around choice. And there's one interesting thing about storage here as well is the food sector. Before we had refrigeration food, we lost about 60% of food. And what is refrigeration and energy storage, but just bear with me on my crazy analogy. Food storage, what's that frozen food? Grid scale batteries, refrigerated warehousing. EV cars, flash freezing. The most important component of the food system in terms of refrigeration is a fridge in your home, because if you didn't have a fridge in your home, supermarkets would have to be four times the size they are today. So I think in other sectors what has happened, how we how systems have been optimized, you only have two week crops a year, you eat bread every day. So actually the food system is more intermittent than the energy system, but these storage vectors have absolutely reduced an optimized system design. So I think it's a really interesting analogy. The second is from mainframe to PC. I remember, huh, you've not got a big IBM churning out in the back right. And everything was designed around these big, in many ways, again, bit like hose pipe type analogy. You start to get the PC, which of course everyone said was going to be never worked never nobody was ever going to take it up. And you've now got a system that's quite differently designed. It's not to say that you don't have large centralized supply of data. But what you have is you do is all designed around my utilization. It is not designed. I am not having to design myself around the mainframe. So these demand models have all been we've other people have gone through the model. And then we have this other challenge coming up which is this, the world of the customer is going to want more than energy, they are going to want assets to, and we were proposing. And I think some of it might happen in the capacity market. I don't know if I'm becoming very geeky here, so do. But the capacity market and other markets. How are we going to unlock these assets for hard pressed customers and the just transition is a really, really important component of this. And we're not going to be able to do it if we're expecting people to write out checks. So service agreements financial service products, capacity market payments, etc. That would be really important. And I don't know whether it's the same here in Ireland, but it's really, really, really difficult to get policymakers to really understand that this has to be a consumer led system. And so there's a recent consultation. Sorry, there's a recent consultations coming out on retail reform. And the satisfaction or joy or pleasure or control or anything about customers is actually invisible it's all about structures and what the industry is going to do rather than customer centric. And so just to illustrate this. I have a dream. And the dream is that we open up the supplier world to lots of different types of propositions so it comes back to my specialist supply. So I would like, let's say the car leasing company is Nissan car leasing with 10,000 cars in Dublin. Okay, so they've got 10,000 cars. They are selling me. They're leasing me a car with 300 miles embedded in it every week. Right. So I don't really know I'm buying I'm certainly don't know I'm buying electricity that's for sure. I don't know really that I'm buying energy, because fundamentally it's just come with a package so I get my 300 miles. So let's just chop up that the different matter and more expensive right, but anyway, that is what Mr Nissan has got his 10,000 cars. So what is he doing he's adding capacity to the system so there is a micro capacity market payment. He also then sells, not the 10,000 but 4,000 because to be frank, 8,000 are going to be static all the time as we know. So they will sell it to, and they'll sell the flexibility to ESB networks in Dublin. Right. And there will be that that relationship, but also Nissan rather than me because I don't know how to access the best time the best tariff, etc. It's absolutely determined and focused on getting the cheapest commodity price possible, because the incentive for them is to do that. Because in some ways we now got an incentive with suppliers, who their incentive is to supply you more energy. So this model actually means that Nissan is really incentivized to get you the very, very cheapest in the best way possible. So the incentives are aligned. I get a little bit of a cheaper car. And I also get much, much cheaper miles. And I have no agro. I don't have to be engaged.  It means that they that the energy world want them to become heating engineers and I don't think that despite me saying that I like being a plumber. I'm just not sure that we're wanting to turn people into energy gigs. The second theme was about digitalization and I'll be really, really quick on this but from the 400 to the 100 million of actions and assets. I really think they're going to be able to do this with the system design that we've got today. They're going to have a big shock, right. This is multiple changing consumer preferences. Lots of interactions between different asset classes with different characteristics, different personalities. You've then got issues around cascade. If you are the system operator, you're going to be saying, oh my God, I've got storage. I've got demand side. I've got different assets coming in at different times of the of the day. This has to be absolutely deeply digitalized. And with all the protections to go with it, but it's going to need require a much more dynamic and bidirectional scheme interacting and dynamic markets. So, when people think that digitalization of the energy system is some form of. When we started the digitalization task force, it was quite funny because we got all the networks in the room and one of them said, oh, God, fabulous person, absolutely brilliant on digitalization. You must meet him. He rolled off. He rolled out Microsoft Word really, really well within the organization. Okay, fine. So I think we've got to really go back here and start working out what your understanding of digitalization and data and all the rest of it. It is not the IT department in that sense. It is much much deeper. And to be frank, also when we look at it, it's going to have to be structural digitalization, not it's not an add on it's not a nice little halo that you know one can get awards for. It is actually part of the structure of the system. And these are the key components, which gives you whole system visibility interoperability and automation. Absolutely crucial is this customer control and consent. If you don't have that you don't have flexibility assets. Actually, you get very, very clear rejection. Automated asset registration so this is being developed at the moment in the UK. So that is quite far down the line. We also propose the digital spine, which is a very, very, very thin layer of interoperability across the whole system. I would call it the HTML of energy. And I'm also working with the IEA to look at this as a global asset. So there's some really interesting stuff going on there and talk about that at some point. Share, share data. It's always an interesting one all these companies thinking, oh my God, my data is incredibly valuable. It's so exciting. What are you doing with it? Well, I don't know, but we've got it and it's really, really exciting and I'm sure one day it will be really valuable and they haven't even got data on this to understand what really they're sitting on. The value of it is actually by sharing it and system operated visibility. So that is the digital journey that we've been proposing. It's very, very last, but really the problem, ultimately, and it's not the problem with the energy sector. It's the problem with so many different sectors. And that is that we need to change our culture and our skills. And everything is not about silos. It's about connectivity and interaction. We've got to be looking at greater diversity in all senses. And actually, there's a there's a very good, bad lesson. Apparently, VW was one of the very last companies to become to really embrace the EV change and how they did it. And his friend of mine who used to work for VW said, Well, it's not really surprising. Have you looked at the board? Very diverse. Fantastic in terms of superficially. They were all mechanical engineers. There you go. He could not believe that anybody would want to get into a horrible EV car. The other thing that's quite funny is, I don't know if you know, but Henry Ford's wife, Mrs Ford in the 20s. She loved her EV car much, much more than she did her petrol car. Ultimately, she got ridden by the market, not by Henry, because he was actually quite keen on EVs as well. So I'm going to suggest I would love to see the system operator in whichever country, the first country that does this, I will send them a bunch of flowers. I would love a chief executive of DHL to be running a system operation. If you think about the system, it is absolutely extraordinary. So I've got a pair of trainers in China. They go through about seven different transport vectors. Actually, human beings are in the middle of it. You don't have human beings in the system in that sense, you're not the people picking things up and putting them on something. So let's say seven different transport vectors, all of them interrelated, all of them run by different people, right? So, you know, the shipper is not the same as the trucker. And I, the customer, can see where at any moment, right the way through the whole process, where that package is, and if there's a problem or whatever. This is both customer centric and I wouldn't have thought a logistics company to be seen as being customer centric, they have. And the logistics of dealing with all the variabilities, it is all done through real deep digitalization algorithms, etc. But they can preempt, and they can predict, and then they can reshape their routines. But it's a really, they're really, really sophisticated. It's not DHL, it's all of those guys, right? The telco sector, really, really important. How that works, particularly with the digitalized sort of, you know, multi fasted system, I think it's really important consumer marketing. So, please come, oh, sorry, please can we get consumer marketing people in to the energy sector, exciting propositions, and Amazon that again gives me a lot of visibility and control. So losers and winners.  If what you're doing is just selling a commodity, you're going to lose out to people who are actually designing and selling optimization services. If you take the victim approach to a customer, you will lose them to more innovative companies. And I'd love to see more data turned into product and services. This is a little tour of, you could say, you know, crazy vision. But I think that all the dynamics in terms of what decarbonization means, what the new cost base is what we've got to deliver consumers, and how quickly we've got to do that. I think we can learn from others. We can really start to understand what this system could look like. And I think we would also then give, in many ways, the customer and society, a decarbonization dividend, rather than in many ways, giving them the bill. Thank you very much. I found that absolutely fascinating. And as you said, a tour like right across such an expanse, I can just, I really marvel at your ability and skill to bring all of this to life in the room to take on relatively complex elements of this whole agenda and explain it.  And this is not, let's be honest, a general audience this is a an expert audience but I'm sure it's fascinated people in this room, and indeed online because I should have mentioned earlier. Welcome to those of you who have joined us online and are still with us. I know there's upwards of 70 of you. So I know most of you still be with us and we still have a nice group of people in the room. And I'm sure you all have questions. And I'm open to questions and I'm sure Laura is as well, at least for a few minutes. So who would like to offer. John. John Fitzgerald, say who you are. We probably know who you are, but tell us on your John Fitzgerald Trinity College Dublin and two questions security and a digitized system. My nightmare when I was on the board central bank was the payment system, and somebody, the Russians interfering with it, that you could collapse. And the payment system, you could collapse the economy for a few days, but collapsing the energy system is worse so how can you deal with that risk. And the second, I found very striking at two nuclear power stations that's the equivalent storage of all the power stations. And to what extent can you use that you gave the example of Spain, distributed storage. But if you have a couple who are expecting a baby imminently. And you, you that battery is drained through the night to provide storage. And do you do people have to say actually, I'm going to need the car in the next hour, where normally they don't so how do you deal with that issue. I'm starting with the security thing so we had a lot of pushback from the sector when we talked about open data for the energy system. Right, when we're talking for talking about Russians and we're talking about interference. And they said well you know then people are going to be able to manipulate it and all the rest of it and I said well it's really quite interesting when you look at the infrastructure in the energy sector. If you go to the little substation around the corner from where I live. It's got a little padlock on right. If you go to the really important one, you've got security guards, guns, dogs, etc. It's quite easy to know where the vulnerabilities are in the energy sector. It's not to say that digitalization doesn't create in some ways a different routine and a different system design. But if you think the banking sector hasn't been bad. I mean it hasn't really has been pretty robust. All sorts of other systems that are really important have got the systems in place. We got GCHQ involved we got everybody, or what I call the secret squirrels, they all came out and visited us. And there are some very, very clear protocols. It's not to say that it isn't vulnerable, but to be frank it's vulnerable today and it is being encroached on today. You might find that just because things, my feeling is just because things aren't open or closed doesn't actually make them any safer. So I think there is lots and lots of system design that needs to be put in place there. Absolutely. But I don't think it makes it less resilient. Security in security of supply. I actually think it makes it more resilient. And I think it gives you greater visibility. And one of the things I think is going to happen as we get much more distributed assets is we are going to have more failures. But they're going to be quite limited failures. They're going to be so we're going to have to be a little bit more relaxed about the UK, and I don't know about the Irish, but the UK gold platedness of the system is beyond any other country.  And so we can, we can lose a little bit. But if I've got PV or an EV or a heat pump or something with flexibility, I have got more resilience. And so I think it's going to be the useful that on the EVs, everything is about consumer concern, and everything would have to be done pretty slowly. So when I was talking about the Nissan racing company, I was saying 4000 cars, right would be available out of the 10,000. As I also said, I think it's actually 8000 that will be static. You will have to start to learn and understand. And you can always say, on your charging and I'm with a very successful Irish company that tomorrow, which is an easy charging company, and you can put absolutely on your consent. I always want 20 miles in my tank, whatever, right, or I always want 60 miles. Or I don't want to participate. Everything has to be driven by customers. And that's where in some ways the energy sector is going to find itself up against lots of different preferences and it's not really used to that. So it's a new world. Laura, wonderful lecture, really top provoking and sorry, Peter Oshie ESP. Really top provoking. I thought some of the analogies were wonderful. And as an electricity professional for more years than I remember now, you know, the structure of the industry is very much generation, which is becoming smaller, you know, smaller bite sizes. Networks which are becoming bigger, but smarter. And suppliers who are becoming more engaged in the service party industry and then of course the customers. But we are locked into that sort of structure right that's the structure we've sort of inherited through liberalization and before that through engineeringization, if you like. So that's the structure of the industry and what I'm seeing from your, from your talk is something I think sort of transcends all of that. And I just want to give any thoughts to whether that sort of industry can develop organically, or whether it really needs a really big push from government, if we're to go in that direction. You're absolutely right. I probably don't remember right the very, very first slide I had a child screaming in the corner. Okay. And this is me being rude about our regulator. And I say to them that they've infantilized the sector. Actually, I mean, they haven't, but it's one of my analogies. In the sense that they certainly in the UK, they will tell a network what color socks to wear on a Tuesday and what time the first day right and everything is is process regulated, rather than outcome regulated. And so, and if you think about it and I don't know if it's the same here but I'm sure it is. Nothing really fundamental has changed since what for 40 years. I mean, has the consumer changed in 40 years in everything else that it's doing. And it's a totally different animal, it's got totally different needs. If you look at the system, the system needs something very, very different. And so the regulation hasn't. And the problem is, is that politicians are very frightened to think with it. I personally think the place to start is with the retail side because that is the way that you can unlock the rest of it and it is actually, in my view, where it should start. We've got in the UK price cap. And the government is never going to be able to come off this price cap ever unless it changes the whole experience. So it can't say, right, we're just going to take the price cap away. Right, everyone's going to go tonto. If what they say is actually we have reengineered and reshaped how you will be getting energy. And this is exciting and this will be much more tailored around you. They've got to create a better landing place and then they will come off the price then they can migrate off the price cap. So at this moment, there is an opportunity, but on the whole is so heavily regulated that, you know, your bill has to look the same as everybody else to be frank, a customer today in the retail market is really just choosing between different coloured logos. And that is it. Right. I mean, and a marginal change with customer service, but as nobody wants to ring their energy company because they shouldn't want to ring their energy company. It's that's a negative rather than a positive. But so we need to start with the politics of energy and it's all the worst reasons it is very political at the moment. Then you redesign into the system. The other thing, of course, which is always fantastic with any politician is to say, ah minister, well that would be very brave because the lights might go out. And that is always and it's absolutely it's a cliche beyond cliche below beyond cliche. And you know it works every single time. It worked on me. Go for it. I good. Sorry. Yeah, I realize the time. Sorry for I've got two offerings here. I'm going to take two together if that's okay. So one question each of you don't mind. And is there anybody else just really burning with a question I'm sure there are but unfortunately time is against us. So I think I'll just take those two, and then we'll close if that's okay. Thank you all very much. Thank you very much, Alex. And thank you very much for the talk and coming out of the car and going straight on the stage. Well done. I'm Fergal MacDabara. I'm Fergal MacDabara. I'm the co-chair of the energy group here at the Institute and yeah. And I was really struck by the slide that you put up which was the new way of looking at the levelized cost of energy the whole of system costs. So let's definitely turn the table mats upside down because some of the conventional wisdom that we would have assumed about the cost of certain technologies is totally different as I just glance at your slide. And you said you wanted to do something with that and that's what I wanted to explore with you you said, maybe in the capacity market you could use it for evaluations or treasury or you're trying to impress treasury with it and get them to do something. Thank you. I'll take my mind. Please, please. You have to remember that. Yes. My question is very simple. You're basically called for major transformation of the electricity system. What is the precondition of that? Do you think that it is absolutely necessary to separate the transmission and distribution businesses from the generation businesses. So here in Ireland, they're controlled the ESB controls both and owns both. And I just ask you, is it a precondition for innovation that this separation should take place and I just don't mean a separation, nominally separation of financing separation of management separation of ownership. And I don't mean privatization. I'm against privatization of the networks and the wires. I'll just start with that and I think everyone will have a, in some ways, a different view. The way we've cut the sector up is pretty arbitrary. I mean, it's, I don't know to what extent I mean I'm on the board of SSC transmission, which is very separate from SSC's distribution network right and these are. I don't really know what the logic was and I think the logic was because how the energy system when it was all nationalized was structured. Right. So I think it's a totally arbitrary thing. I think you could make a case for either way for it to be much more integrated for one to look at new solutions. I mean, I would like to see a lot more micro grids and a lot more innovation in that field. But frankly, on one level, I would say to you, we are at such a difficult moment where certainly in the UK and I think it's exactly the same in Ireland, we have not got enough infrastructure to actually bring all this fantastic resource that we both benefit from. I would just get on with it and not worry about those structures, particularly I would really look at planning. I would really.  I would do a bit of over build to just keep the costs, I mean reduce the cost over the longer period of time, get it done. And we've got I mean we what we're doing in the UK we're building farms in the middle of the North Sea and forgetting to build the roads to the farms. Right. Fabulous. I mean, who thought of that. And it's just ludicrous. So, I'm less interested in the structures of the distribution. What I would say is the distribution networks are very varied in the UK we've got lots of different organizations and some of them are really, really good and really exciting, and others are just still hose pipes not thinking about the future. And there does need to be a lot more tension there. On your whole I love that you like these those metrics. Right, so what's very weird about and I'm sure it's, it is the same in every government you can tell me whether it is or not. Essentially, this whole system design has been used for the last eight years in, in the UK for policy planning, not with the demand bit, but just on the supply bit right. It's been used for policy planning. But it never really gets into policy. It's really, really interesting, and it doesn't go beyond the modelers in the department. Right. And the Treasury don't even, I mean, so I've been doing quite a lot of workshops with them on whole system costs, and for them to start to understand to use them as metrics. It's been the last two 18 months I would say they're starting to understand it and they're starting to appreciate it. But God the levelized cost of electricity so simple that's why we love it a silver bullet. It's easy. No variables, etc, etc. Oh, this woman comes along and she wants everything to be a bit more complicated.  But we are getting quite a lot of traction in parts of the Treasury. We are doing as I say quite a lot of work with the IEA and the World Economic Forum. We're doing a big piece of work for this cop coming up, which will be really trying to bottom this out. The other thing that's interesting about it is, once you've got those metrics, I've been talking to some of the pension funds and saying, are you interested in doing mini CFDs for heat pumps, for example. Right. They said, yeah, sure. Well, we did smart meters. We can do as long as we've got some form of contractual underpinning, we can really lean into distributed assets. So do these metrics help value those assets within a whole system thing. Anyway, I dream, I dream a lot. Okay. So I hope, but they'll start to realize that certainly network costs and balancing costs are too big just to put as an extra in their calculations. Thank you so much. I'm just conscious of the time. And I'm sure people have things to do. And but it's a real testament to the quality of our speaker and the interest that people have shown that there's so many people still here to 30. And I know still online. I just want to thank. To be sincere, Laura, as particularly as as Virgil said for just stepping down the steps and onto the stage without sort of missing a beat. So, but it just shows the professional from political arena advocacy all the things that you've done, which I would normally go through and introduce a speaker at great length but we just decided not to do that and have you straight on but I think you've demonstrated how good a communicate you are these issues as I said, I mean I'm worth crying out at the world is crying out for people who can actually communicate these complex questions to the broad audience and I will say that, you know, in fairness to the it that has been part of the ESP's business is not simply just to function as an energy, you know, in the energy sector, by the way, if the such a thing as an energy sector in a discrete sense anymore and I think you've kind of made that point that you can't read all of the old lines and you're all kind of breaking that, but I think that that's the business you know ESP is obviously got its own business to attend to what wants to ensure that it's not just part of the debate but fostering and facilitating these opportunities to disseminate information and to help people analyze how things are changing so fast. It's also the business that we're in, and in the Institute, the IEA, and so it's been my great pleasure to chair this session. We've three, four more to go in this, in this series, and I want to thank you all for your attendance here today both in person and those of you who joined online. And thanks to Bevan Cody, in particular, and her team in the ESP, thanks to my own team in the IEA, and we look forward to seeing you all again but most importantly a big round of applause for our terrific speaker Laura Sam.