We've been dominated by narrative control since the dawn of civilization. The science of modern propaganda arguably got its start over a century ago during World War I, when a young Edward Bernays was recruited to help sell the conflict to a reluctant American populace. After which he took what he'd learned on that front and folded it into a lifetime of work on the study of mass-scale psychological manipulation. That was when propaganda, as we know it today, came into being, with the scientific method applied to the task of refining techniques for manipulating large-scale human behavior using modern media distribution. Those methods have been in research and development this entire time, and have advanced at least as much as our other instruments of warfare have advanced since World War I. But that wasn't the beginning of mass-scale psychological manipulation by the powerful. That has been going on since the dawn of civilization. Back when humans were a nomadic hunter-gatherer species, there was no need for tribal leaders to impose mental narratives over their tribe in order to keep them moving and behaving in the way they wanted. The animal needs of food, drink, and safety were enough to keep those small societies moving, hunting, foraging, reproducing, and fighting wherever it was necessary. They would have done those things even without the existence of language, and our evolutionary ancestors probably did exactly that for millions of years before the behavior of speech first emerged in humans. That all changed with the invention of agriculture some 10,000 years ago. Once humans began learning to trick the earth's biosphere into making the food appear next to them, they became capable of sticking around in one place without starving, and civilizations began to emerge. Whereas hunter-gatherers, humans were only organizing in groups of a few dozen. With the ability to settle and build things, we began congregating in villages and cities of hundreds, or thousands. Once you're dealing with human groups of that size, with sustenance coming from farmlands and livestock, the animal impulses of hunger, thirst, and safety are no longer complex enough to determine the way those humans are going to be behaving from day to day. Copious amounts of language will now be needed. Agreements, protocols, rules, etiquette, how is the civilization planned out, how are decisions made, who does the work, how are resources allocated, how are children conceived and raised. From here you can already see how the possibility of abuse is opening up. Someone's going to be doing the work, someone's going to be making the decisions, someone's going to be deciding where the resources go, and potentially assigning a lot more to themselves than to others, someone's going to be deciding who gets to have sex, and potentially assigning that responsibility entirely to themselves and their supporters, and potentially not leaving any say in the matter to the women. Once humans moved from organizing in villages and cities to moving in kingdoms and empires, the potential for abuses increased exponentially. Then you've got the matter of wars and who should fight them, you've got money and the capacity for vast wealth, you've got laws and the ability to determine what they are and whom they benefit, and you've got someone holding an immense amount of power over a very large number of people. You can't rely on instinctual animal impulses to organize people into civilizations of that kind of complexity. To get people moving in accordance with your will, you've got to use narrative. You need to overlay your civilization with a conceptual world of mental stories that people believe in and move in alignment with. And that's what has happened from every civilization that has ever existed. Until the last few generations, religions played a major role in this. Getting the public valuing meekness, obedience, poverty, and rendering unto Caesar what is Caesar's, paying taxes, while teaching them that it would be sinful to murder their rulers and take their treasure was an essential component in subjugating the masses and keeping them moving in alignment with your will. Other religions of Christianity and Islam look quite different from the belief system like Confucianism, but all three are narrative overlays spread on top of giant civilizations which kept the rank and file public marching in accordance with the will of the powerful. And of course it wasn't entirely bad. Civilization would have been impossible if everyone was robbing and killing everyone else all the time, and narratives about sin and eternal punishment were one way of keeping that from happening. The narratives of religion, law, government, and culture preserved a given order where there would otherwise have been disorder. It may have been a tyrannical, exploitative, and unjust order most of the time, but it was order. In modern western society, religion plays a less dominant role in the organizing narratives. But there's still the same amount of thick narrative overlay as we had in ancient times. In place of the priesthood we've got the pundits, news reporters, politicians, and thought leaders. In place of heretics we've got tankies and conspiracy theorists. And in place of the old scriptures and doctrines we've got the current mainstream worldview. Before the mainstream worldview involved Jesus and God. Now the mainstream worldview involves capitalism and an entirely faith-based belief in democracy. Just as before, it's not all bad. It's probably a good thing that the mainstream worldview values freedom and justice, even if our freedoms are largely illusory and our judicial systems are profoundly unfair. It's probably a good thing that the mainstream worldview now officially opposes racism, even if that is partly because of race wars and vigilante justice are inconvenient for our rulers. It's probably a good thing that the mainstream worldview values getting children vaccinated against diseases, which used to kill a lot of people. Even if the pharmaceutical industry does have way too much power and diseases are now used as a pretext to roll out authoritarian agendas. It's not all bad, but it is bad. The status quo systems we're manipulated into accepting by the narrative overlay on our civilization are creating terrible injustices and are imperiling our entire species. Ecosidal capitalism is killing our biosphere. Imperialism is threatening our planet with nuclear armageddon. People are being starved, impoverished, abused and exploited by the socio-political status quo we are manipulated into consenting to by the science of modern propaganda. And it's all for the benefit of the same types of people who took control of the dominant narratives of the ancient civilizations lived in by our ancestors. From the dawn of civilization we have been ruled by manipulators. Those who rise to the top of our current civilization have the same qualities as those who rose to the top of the kingdoms and empires of old. People who are just a little bit more clever than the rest, and just unprincipled enough to use that to their advantage. The next stage in our development as a species, if we get to the next stage, will be to transcend this model. To transcend the model in which our lives are dominated by mental narrative, in which manipulators are able to use the fact that humans are storytelling creatures, to rise to levels of power over the rest of us, in which we are forced to trade peace, justice, sanity, and a healthy ecosystem for the order and stability of our ruling systems. This will mean becoming a conscious species. It will mean casting aside our primitive psychological delusions to such an extent that we no longer need the narrative overlay of a mainstream worldview to move in harmony with each other. That we no longer need the narrative overlay of law and government to treat each other with kindness and keep things moving in an orderly way. That we no longer need the narrative overlay of money and economy to move resources where they are needed. If we can achieve this one day, it will be a kind of return to Eden, a return to the narrative-free innocence of the hunter-gatherer days of our ancestors. But it will be the conscious, mature manifestation of that way of life, just as spiritual enlightenment is the conscious, mature manifestation of the same non-dual experience lived accidentally by babies. We won't hunt in tribes as our species did in its infancy. We will live in civilizations. But we will live in harmony with each other and with our ecosystem, because we transcended our unwholesome relationship with mental narrative, and replaced it with a wide-awake direct encounter with reality. And I suspect that if we ever get there, it will feel very familiar. Very old and very familiar.


Bruce Lee had a way of making everybody feel kind of okay about their mistakes, and I can appreciate that. I think we could all use a little bit more Lee way. I've been traveling more than I usually do recently, and I've noticed that when it comes to flying, there are two general categories of people. There are those who get to the airport super early, meander smugly through the security checkpoint and proceed to twiddle their thumbs while they wait for their flight to board, sometimes sitting around for hours in the mind-numbing tedium of an airplane terminal. In contrast, some people prefer to breathlessly sprint to their gate, carrying their belt and passport awkwardly in one hand as they run, in the desperate hope that they'll make their flight. I fall pretty squarely into the first group, mostly because I'm an exceptionally boring person and think of airport time as an opportunity to catch up on my reading, but also because of a printable which has some curious philosophical and practical implications. We've talked in previous episodes about two central concepts for engineering, tolerance and safety factors, both of which seem to share a deep connection to the same idea, something like wiggle room or slack. Tolerance is the carefully calculated maximum amount of slop that engineers build into their designs, allowing the widest possible margin of error in the production of parts. It's much more expensive to make every single feature, every hole and plate, conform precisely to a set of exacting specifications. They prefer to just calculate how bad a part can be made before it absolutely won't work. Just reject any parts that are worse than that and you've got a much cheaper functional device. Safety factors are arbitrary multipliers that engineers throw onto their rigorous calculations to provide some margin for error. You might calculate that your bungee cord needs to withstand exactly 867.3 newtons, but end up quadrupling that number, a safety factor of four just to be on the safe side. Never be sure if a sudden gust of wind or a slight manufacturing defect might screw up the ideal conditions necessary for your original number to hold, so an engineer will invest in some technically extraneous beefiness to make sure that nothing unacceptably bad happens. Both tolerance and safety factors are intimately related to the idea that there should be some sort of allowance made for the variations between what's expected or hoped for in a perfect predictable world and what will probably end up happening. That is to say, something a bit worse than that. That's a good idea for all sorts of reasons, but I want to focus on one in particular. What you get in return for a little bit of extra margin. If you were of a reductionist bent, you might view these allowances as nothing more than a linear increase in the capacity of these systems.  A larger safety factor on your bungee cord lets you deal with that much more load. But we're actually getting a great deal more than that. A part designed with much wider tolerances can sometimes be manufactured using categorically different techniques than one that needs to be tightly controlled. Other than carefully machining something using expensive CNC equipment, it might be possible to cast it in a rough mold, or even replace it with some easily purchased mass-produced item. A high safety factor doesn't just allow a structure to withstand higher loads without failing, it makes it better able to resist sudden impacts. It increases its longevity and can even allow it to be used in conditions that it wasn't explicitly designed for. The opposites of these observations are also true. Reducing the margins on these quantities can cause adverse consequences beyond simply reducing rated capacity. One way to think about the effects of a little extra wiggle room is the concept of degrees of freedom, the number of possible arrangements of a given set of items in a finite space. If you've ever seen one of these little sliding square puzzles, you can probably appreciate how only having one space to push squares into severely limits how many options the player has to manipulate the order of the squares. A puzzle with two spaces is much easier to solve, and with enough spaces it becomes totally trivial. The difference between just barely enough and a comfortable margin can be huge. Degrees of freedom increase combinatorially with the number of available spaces, and as we've discussed before, that function gets insanely big insanely fast. In that vein, an engineering design with slim margins isn't just more exacting in its requirements, it vastly constrains options for manufacturing, material, usage, all sorts of things. Sometimes that sacrifices necessary to achieve some other goal, but for an engineer it can be tempting to design down to the wire just to feel accomplished. There are clear corollaries of this idea for areas outside engineering. For example, in their 2012 paper titled Some Consequences of Having Too Little, Shaw and colleagues offer some observations about the psychology of poverty, how people who are struggling to make ends meet actually have different mental responses to certain stimuli than people who have more than enough resources. In one of their experiments, participants played a variant of Wheel of Fortune. Some test subjects were given an abundance of guesses to get the right word, while others only had a few. One might expect the total cognitive burden on a player to increase with their budget of guesses.  But the opposite turns out to be true, having only a few tries to get the right answer created greater mental fatigue faster, leaving poor players much more cognitively exhausted than their rich counterparts. In a different experiment, they found that players in a poverty condition were also more likely to overborrow, taking punishingly high-interest loans for short-term gain and ultimately shooting their score in the foot. These results might seem counterintuitive as they undermine a player's ability to succeed if dealt a bad hand from the start, but they can be partially explained by this idea of the advantages of wiggle room. As the authors of the paper point out, the poverty condition limits options.  Poor players were also powerless to avoid taking brutal loans that eventually tank their score. As the only other option was an immediate loss. Another example of the importance of wide margins can be found in Black Swan theory, a concept popularized vehemently by Nossum Nicholas-Taleb in numerous books and other works. Taleb notes that we generally expect the magnitude of new instances of any phenomenon to lie somewhere between its highest and lowest values that have been recorded to date, but that this approach discounts the existence of extreme values that simply haven't occurred yet, so-called Black Swan events. Black Swan events are unprecedented, sent new boundaries for what we can expect, and can't be predicted with any real certainty. If a levy is built to withstand the highest ocean levels ever recorded in an area for the past 100 years, one might very well expect it to hold against the vast majority of floods, but one might also expect it to fail in a flood the likes of which have never been seen. Such an event would be surprising, but Taleb argues it really shouldn't be. Why should we expect that the largest flood ever seen would necessarily be in the past? Shouldn't we assume that our position in history isn't privileged and place equal odds on it being in the future? With the potential for Black Swan events setting new limits for what's possible, the idea of a just barely enough approach seems obviously and woefully inadequate. It's always a gamble whether your business will have record profits or record losses any given year, whether your building will see the worst storm that has ever happened in that part of the world, or whether you'll have the best or worst day that you've had yet. You can't really say for certain just how good or bad these scenarios will be. You can only try to build enough of a buffer into the systems designed to deal with them that Black Swan events won't immediately result in disaster. It's hard to appreciate the value of a little bit extra. Without a perfect description of all the myriad situations we might subject a particular system to, it might seem that the only result of such allowances is waste. Engineers are especially prone to scoffing at overbuilt designs that exceed their specified requirements many times over, but a little bit of wiggle room can allow space for a huge number of options, while warding off dangerous pitfalls of both psychology and the impacts of the unprecedented. At least, that's what I tell myself while I wait for hours in the airport coffee shop for my plane to arrive. What instances can you think of where a little bit of wiggle room can result in huge advantages? Please leave a comment below and let me know what you think. Thank you very much for watching. Don't forget to subscribe while I share. And don't stop dunking.


The final item of business is a member's business debate on motion 5778, in the name of Elena Whitham, on challenge poverty week 2022. This debate will be concluded without any questions being put, and I would ask those members who would wish to speak in the debate to please press the request-to-speak buttons now. I call on Elena Whitham to open the debate up to seven minutes, please. Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer. May I thank you for pronouncing my name correctly? Every time it's done in this chamber, it gets me very excited. First, I thank all members across most parties who signed my motion to allow us to debate the important year of the event that has challenged poverty week. I must sincere thanks to the Poverty Alliance that we've got a couple of staff members up in the gallery today, and all organisations across all sectors who work so hard to challenge the insidious, pernicious, anxiety-provoking and hugely damaging social and economic construct that is poverty. Since 2013, challenge poverty week has acted as a platform for sharing ideas about how we, as a country across all spheres of government, sectors and civic society, can turn our shared values of justice and compassion into concrete action to release people from the grips of poverty. Since its inception in challenge poverty week has grown year upon year and the 2021 had over 350 organisations taken part and over 900 separate activities. This year, there's a clear focus on the current cost of living crisis and the threat that this poses to people living on low incomes. It is hoped that this week brings attention to the support that exists for solving poverty, including support for policies posed to ensure that no one in Scotland has to live in the grips of poverty. Having worked in the third sector directly with people experiencing the worst of multiple disadvantage, I have seen the most extreme poverty up close in all of its horrific technicolour. I helped women and children fleeing domestic abuse with only what they stood in. I supported people in the grips of trauma-induced addiction as they tried to navigate a hostile benefit system that was often all too ready to fling a punishing punitive sanction at their feet and a criminal justice system that all too often neglected to look at the underlying trauma that precipitated offending behaviour and how incarceration caused an exacerbated homelessness and family breakdown further entrenching poverty in whole communities. That was always made worse by systems that just don't speak to each other, leaving folk to try and join up the pieces themselves when their resilience is at its lowest. As a child in Canada for a time, my family relied on food banks and voluntary agencies when my dad was paid off and we had no support network around us to help us pick up the pieces that sudden poverty brings. My relationship with food has been coloured by that experience to this day. What a different, something like the Scottish child payment would have made to the little eight-year-old me and my wee brother. Perhaps my mum would not have had to forgo food herself to try and eek out the sustenance available for her kids. As an adult here in Scotland, I have had several points being in receipt of social security and found myself to quote the recent title of our social justice and social security committees inquiry report, Robin Peter to pay Paul. I have even head down the back of the sofa lest the door-to-door loan operative from Provident saw that I was at home with now bit coppers in my purse and no way to cover the week's instalment. When my son was small, I used charity shops and clothing banks to ensure he was kitted out and my money was stretched. I know from my lived and worked experience that those in entrenched poverty at this time and those just tipped into poverty will be facing sleepless nights and their wellbeing, mental and physical, will be suffering exponentially. Challenge poverty this week this year has a theme, Turn the Tide, and a range of asks, namely one, that we redesign the economy to make jobs work for people through flexible, secure, environmentally minded and paying at least the real living wage, affording everyone enough to live a dignified life. Two, that we ensure our social security system provides a strong and adequate lifeline for all of us when we need it. We need to upgrade benefits in line with inflation. We need to scrap the cap, including the hated rape clause. We need to scrap the five-week wait and the dreaded sanctions regime. Three, we need to accelerate actions to tackle both the climate crisis and poverty. The recent cap on energy prices is not a cap felt equally by all. I watched a wee video today of Caroline Hunter, who is an unpaid intensive career for her daughter Freia. A family who has lived with fuel poverty for years due to Freia's needs, which are reliant on the use of a lot of energy. Despite additional measures in place from Social Security Scotland, this family is experiencing unrelenting and crushing fuel poverty, and more must be done to protect those in this situation. Four, we need to ensure that our communities, most affected by poverty in Scotland, have more power and resources to bring about real and lasting change. Mainstreaming participatory budgeting and providing communities with support to realise their own goal is vital, as is rolling out the principles of community wealth building. Five, the lengths between poverty and poor health are profound and significant. We need to ensure that all of us have access to good quality timely healthcare and health and care services that meet our physical and mental needs. We should strive to embed community link workers and mental health workers across the whole of Scotland and our health centres. Six, we need to redesign our public services so that they are affordable, accessible and work for everyone. Services such as transport, childcare and digital inclusion are vital for our successful participation in society and are crucial in supporting us all to live decent lives. This ask also extends to ensuring that our housing system is affordable and warm for all and that homelessness is eradicated and rents are at a level that does not entrench poverty. We must also recognise the gendered nature of poverty and structural inequality and purposefully act to address it. Free school meal provisions should be increased and rolled out at pace and school meal debt should be written off as is the case in increasing numbers of council areas across the country. Wains need to eat. The last week has rocked the very foundations of our economy and we must work together to ensure that those with the least do not bear the brunt of decisions made by those with the most. Let's all challenge poverty and work to turn the tide. I now call David Torrance to be followed by Jeremy Baill for up to four minutes please, Mr Torrance. I thank my colleague Elena Whitham for securing this important debate in Parliament this evening. This year, and rather unsurprisingly, Challenge Poverty Week has a clear focus on the current cost of living crisis and the threat it poses to people living with low incomes and shines a light on the support that exists for solving poverty, including support for policies posed to ensure that no one in Scotland has to live in the grip of poverty. Poverty is widely considered to be not having enough money to meet basic needs, including food, clothing and shelter, with a household considered to be in poverty, with the income is less than 60 per cent of the average income for household types. However, it is also much more about than just having enough money. It is a lack of choices and a lack of options. It is uncertainty. It is insecurity. It is exclusion from society. It is living one day at a time. It has been completely consumed by hardship but it affects every single decision that you make. It is a lack of resilience and it is fearing for the future. In modern day Scotland, no one should have to experience poverty, but a stark reality is that it impacts daily lives of more than one million people in Scotland and one in five people across the UK, with many families only one wage, one disaster or one missed bill away from crisis. We all know that there is no cause, no one solution, but the results are different in every case. This is why Awareness Week and the opportunities it presents to champion the work that is being undertaken by organisations and communities across Scotland to alleviate hardship continues to be so important. In addition to many national groups, local organisations and volunteers do amazing work to mitigate the very worst effects of hardship. We are fortunate to have a Government that cares about community and families and is committed to tackling the root causes of poverty and child poverty. With a particular focus on three main drivers of poverty reduction. Work and earnings and social security and household costs, Scotland has seen a record investment of almost £8.5 billion committed to support low-income households between 2018 and 2022, with almost £3.3 billion benefiting children. Measures such as the introduction of a Scottish child payment, an increase in the number of real living wage accredited employers, more fund the dollars for early learning and childcare, the delivery of 35,000 affordable homes and expansion of universal free school meals have all helped to support families both immediately and in long term. In total, the Scottish Government's package of five family benefits for low-income families will be worth over 10,000 by the time the family's first child turns six and 9,700 per second in subsequent children. This compares to less than 1,800 for an eligible family's first child in England and less than 1,300 for a second in subsequent children. It was recognised by a Joseph Rowntree Foundation and its 2022 UK report that the benefit system in Scotland is increasingly different from the rest of the UK, with mitigation against some of the most poverty-increasing UK Government wealthy reforms of the last decade. The child limit and income-related benefits, the benefit cap, the five-week wait for the first universal credit payments are just some of the elements that have caused untold damage to families. The figures show that if the UK Government were to reverse reforms, it would put an estimated £780 million in the pockets of Scottish households in 2023-24 and help lift 70,000 people out of poverty, including 30,000 children. Those numbers and figures are astounding, but for me it is a real-life experience that will make reality at home. Before I conclude this evening, I would like to highlight a conversation with a constituent that took place last month. I had an elderly woman visit my constituent's office to discuss her anxiety about the current cost of living crisis. While we are discussing the impossible task of balancing her pension with exorbitant energy prices and rocket and food costs, she told me that when she is at home, she would normally have the television on for most of the day in the background as she lives alone and it is company for her, but not now. Now she is looking ahead and planning which programme she really wants to watch and will only turn it on then for the fear of being unable to afford to live out as it will. This elderly woman is sitting every day at home with no heating, no lights and no company. How many more of her older people are sitting at home in the cold, dark and lonely homes as they are desperate to try to avoid being dragged into poverty or because of the actions and policies of a callous and caring UK Government? This is not acceptable. We all have a duty to work together to make sure that no one is left behind and right now this just isn't going to happen. UK Government must act now to address the crisis that is quickly in the entire company before even more people find themselves in financial distress. Thank you Mr Torrance. I now call Jeremy Balfour to be followed by Pam Duncan-Glancy up to four minutes please Mr Balfour. Thank you Deputy Presiding Officer. I would first of all like to congratulate Eleanor Putham on securing his time for his debate. I know she is deeply passionate about this subject and keeps us focused on the committee that she convenes. It is essential that we have a conversation about how we elevate or get rid of poverty and it needs to be an on-going debate where everyone is involved in it. I would like to thank the different organisations that have pretend submissions before this debate. I would like to particularly highlight the one that was sent to me by CARE, which was a fairer share of how rethinking income tax can be free families from poverty. I want to pay tribute to the amazing work that is done by the third sector. Having worked in this area for part of my life, I know that they are on the front line of the issue doing important work to lift people out of poverty. Organisations such as Christians Against Poverty who work tirelessly to help people to organise their finances and get their debt under control. Government, we in this Parliament must never forget that one of their primary responsibilities is to support those heroes in their work. I was slightly concerned a couple of weeks ago that during one of the evidence sessions in our committee, SCVO reported that there would be no conversation between them and Scottish Government in regard to the agreement that there should be a three-year funding proposal. I would urge the cabinet secretary to commit for her and for the finance team within Scottish Government to arrange those meetings so that we can see progress going forward. I am still concerned that, particularly within local authorities, there is a silo attitude in regard to dealing with those issues. Education does not speak to transport. Transport does not speak to health and social care. We need to work to make sure that these things do not happen. In the time that I have left, I would like to talk about the impact of poverty on the disabled community. I appreciate the motion that we are debating tonight that references the fact that a disabled community is disproportionately more likely to experience poverty. They are among the most vulnerable within our society. They experience poverty to a higher degree than other people in our society. They are affected by the economic crisis that is gripping our world more than other people in our society. Therefore, both the Westminster Government and the Scottish Government need to seek to provide aid for those in need. There should be special consideration for those who are disabled. I hope that the Westminster Government will commit to raising all benefits by inflation when it brings forward its proposals, but the Scottish Government have a responsibility as well, Yssym. I thank the member for taking the intervention. There was a press release this morning from Inclusion Scotland that said that a lot of disabled Scots are worried about dying this winter because of the cost of living crisis. In fact, 75% are not eating or heating their homes at the moment. Does the member acknowledge that his party's policies, Brexit and the recent chaos down at Westminster, are to blame for this broken UK? I do not recognise that. If you look at what is happening across the whole of Western Europe, you will see that the inflation costs are going through in every country. I do not accept the premise that she has made. I have said that because of what is happening that the UK Government does need to commit to see benefits rising above inflation, we should all welcome what is happening in regard to the fuel interventions by the Government over the past two weeks. All of that will make a difference, but there are things that can be done here as well. We had an announcement last year that people within P7s would all get free school meals. That was delayed, and that is causing people within my area and across Scotland problems. The number of ways in which the Government's response needs to step up. Covid has left disabled people behind. Many people will be concerned with the response to the cost of living crisis. The £95 million cut from the budget for disabled employment is deeply regrettable. I know that the cabinet secretary often says that we have to make decisions as politicians, and they have gone for perhaps one of the most vulnerable groups within our society. At a time when vulnerable people are struggling, we should not be cutting budgets. We should be showing that we have easy access as possible to work opportunities rather than taking them further away. On the subject of cutting budgets, does the member share my deep concern about the prospect of £18 billion worth of public expenditure cuts in order to fund the tax cuts? That is the level of cut that his Government is suggesting may happen, which will have a direct impact on Scottish budgets. Does he share my deep concern about that? We do not know in regard to what is going to be announced by the SNP in the near future, but we know that your Government has cut £55 million. That is in black and white. That is clear. Let us see what happens in the UK Government over the next few months. Mr Balford, you are over your time a wee bit. Could you bring your remarks to close? You are starting off with the issue of poverty of course, it is all groups. As with many things it is felt disproportionately by the disabled community, I implore this Government not to make them once again a pay a disproportionate price simply because they are disabled. Thank you. I now call Pam Duncan-Glancy to be followed by Marie McNair up to four minutes please. I too would like to share my thanks with Eleanor Whitham for bringing this debate to the Parliament today. I hope that I pronounced your name correctly, but if I didn't you can correct me in committee on Thursday and I won't get it wrong the next time.  It is bad for our health and it is bad for the economy. Today I want to pay tribute to the poverty alliance for fighting that every day and for once again pulling together a challenge poverty week that really demonstrates not just the problems but also highlights the solutions. They are an organisation that are often at the forefront of the fight against poverty here in Scotland. They work hard to bring lived experience to the heart of their work and in doing so make recommendations based on what people living in poverty themselves say they need. So far we have seen a failure from both Governments to properly act on that expert advice and value the lived experience. As the costs of fruit and vegetables and all other weekly groceries continue to skyrocket even more families are struggling to afford the resources they need to eat a balanced healthy diet. They are scared to put the heating on because it might mean they can't afford to put food on the table at all, risking both ill health and lack of nutrition. People are hungry and freezing and it's only going to get worse over the winter. Families in the Winford are told to hug their dugs to stay warm, meanwhile the Tories are taking a reckon ball to the economy. The cost of living crisis we are experiencing now will have longer term impacts. It's well proven that those who come from poorer backgrounds are more likely to have shorter life expectancy and suffer from more health problems. They're more likely to have to turn to the NHS and that comes at a price too. Quite simply, failing to tackle poverty is bad economics too. There's a longer term impact on social security spending as well. The deeper people fall, the harder it is and the longer it takes to pull them back above water. The welfare system must be a safety net but it cannot be used as the only weapon we have in this fight against poverty. It is one lever and it has to be used alongside all others available to us. That's why I share colleagues' concerns about cuts to employability in Scotland. If the system is having to pay out to hardworking people, it is not working properly. The reality is that poor conditions, precarious work and low wages mean that that's exactly what it is having to do. The social security system cannot be expected to keep filling a gap created by an absence of progressive policy choices. The economically viable thing to do would be to begin to reduce poverty and in doing so to re-divert spending from battling the longer-term consequences of inequality. To do so, we must tackle the causes of poverty at the root. The Themes of this week's campaign to turn the tide on poverty illustrates some of those causes clearly. Beyond just steering us through the current rocky economic climate and tackling the rising energy bills that are leaving more and more people battling fuel poverty, there needs to be strong action on healthcare, housing, transport and employability too. People must be supported to enjoy their right to good work, including by taking real tangible actions to close the disability employment gap, ensuring that everyone who can work has the opportunity to do so and in turn to grow the economy for the future. Ending all non-residential care charges, reforming carers allowance and paying care workers £15 an hour would ensure that those who require care and are able to receive it and those who provide it are valued and encouraged to stay in the profession. When the going gets tough on the economy and in other areas, support for disabled people, women, poor people, black and minority ethnic people and for the third sector, it usually goes overboard. We know that these groups lose their jobs because they're more likely to be in precarious work in the first place and it's these groups that are going to be disproportionately impact if both Governments don't move quickly. Money advisers are going to bed with the same money worries they spend their days advising their clients about. Third sector support that many are forced to rely on is being cut and in some cases has been pulled almost overnight. These services provide a lifeline but they too are dealing with rising bills as well as an increasing demand. It's unsustainable. That's why a Labour-led Government would increase funding for money advice services and commit to long-term multi-year funding models for third sector organisations, giving them the certainty and allow them to focus their resources on service delivery. I'd echo my colleague Jeremy Balfour's ask to the Cabinet Secretary to set out if she will meet SCVO to discuss this in detail. The situation could not be more urgent. All layers of government must act. Labour is ready to step up and do so at UK level and here in Scotland. We would overhaul and replace universal credit for a start and ensure a truly fair and dignified system. In Scotland, we use all the powers that we have on social security to ensure that everyone has a guaranteed minimum income that they will not fall below. That will mean reassessing the rate of disability and carers benefits and making sure that the system is automated where possible. We'd cancel school meal debt, as the Labour-led partnership in South Lanarkshire have already done, and we'd top up the welfare fund to make sure that anyone who falls through the cracks of targeted support can be identified by local authorities and access critical funding would have the cost of rail fares and cab bus fares. I stress colleagues that delivering these policies cannot wait. We must not stop or waste any time. I urge both Governments to listen to all organisations and even those of us in opposition too and work relentlessly to use every lever we have, ring it dry and turn the tide on poverty. I thank my colleague Elena Whitten for securing this debate. It's much needed, and I congratulate the poverty lines and all anti-poverty campaigners across the country for promoting the event. I also take this opportunity to thank the many support groups, food banks and advice agencies in my constituency. I praise them all, including the Damure, Community Food Pantry, The Recycle Room, Okoparticle food parcels, Faithly Food Share, East and Bartonshire Food Bank, West and Bartonshire Community Food Share, Clive Bank Asbestos Group, The Big Disability Group, The East and West and Bartonshire Citizens Advice Bureaus and both councils' advice staff. As a constituency MSP, I see what they do to provide much-neasy help and support, and I'm firmly on their side. The debate is timely, given the scale of the challenge facing many of our constituents. Just yesterday, the Joseph Rowntree Foundation in Scotland published its report, Poverty in Scotland 2022. The report states that nearly one in five households on low incomes in Scotland have gone hungry and cold this year, even before we entered the winter months. The report says that this is about the UK Government. The will for abandonment of low-income households in the last month's budget is outrageous, meaning that without further intervention by them, the situation described in this report will be worsened from an already terrible position by the oncoming winter. The Joseph Rowntree Foundation correctly asserts that this cost of living crisis is not just caused by increasing costs. The incomes of low-income households have been intentionally reduced by a decade of reductions in social security support. Surely it's always to all that this needs to change, but also yesterday, we instead got a speech from the chancellor that shows he's no shame. A speech with little reference to the straight and new turn, not a hint of an apology. I'm glad to remember. Would she then, at the same time as condemning the UK Government, also condemn her Government for cutting 55 million for disabled people at a time when they are, apart from, most vulnerable? Take on a border point, we consider everything. Maybe we'll look at the members should be first-hand, maybe looking at carers allowance, really, when you can have upgraded that, but you never. So anyway, we'll take no lessons from the Tory party, okay? This cost of living crisis is not just caused by increasing costs. It's obviously intentionally reduced the decade of reductions in social security support. Surely it's always to all this needs to change.  This is a budget plan that chooses to instate bankers' bonuses, but not reinstate a £20 uplift to universal credit, and it continues austerity and welfare cuts that are leaving so many behind. There's no commitment to increase the benefits by inflation, and I hope what you said earlier on will happen, but we'll see. Or scrap the five-week waiting time in universal credit. Or abolish the two-child policy, which is a born rate clause, absolutely disgusting. Or you turn on plans to increase benefit sanctions instead of filling bankers' pockets. It's a missed opportunity to provide the help that people need to get through this crisis, and that won't be forgotten. In Scotland, our focus is different. Although control to 85% of social security budget remains Westminster, we're working to maximise our interventions. We're building a system led by dignity, fairness and respect. No unjust action resumes, and no pointless private sector assessments. The Scottish Child payment is being increased to £25 a week, and eligibility extended to under 16s. The Scottish Government's five family payments taken together are worth over £10,000 with the time the first child reaches six, and around £9,700 for subsequent children. No restrictive two-child policy here. We continue to mitigate the bedroom tax and now the benefit cap resources that we could be investing elsewhere in our social security budget. We have introduced the Scottish Carrier supplement right in the wrong that was continued by Tories, Labour and Liberal Governments at Westminster, and we move on at pace to roll out disability benefits and further support to carers. These interventions in the rent freeze, evictions monitoring and other support like the Scottish Welfare Fund are essential from a Government that gets the priorities right. We should continue to see what else can be done with our budgets and powers. Absolutely always, Presiding Officer, this Parliament needs the full powers of independence to cut the cause of this crisis at its core.  I thank Elena Witham for bringing this debate to the chamber. This year's challenge poverty week has a clear focus on the current devastating cost of living crisis and the threat that poses to people living on low and because of the brutal nature of the crisis's average incomes. It is hoped that this week brings attention to the strategy and resource that we have for eradicating poverty, including support for policies that are posed to ensure that no one in Scotland must live in the grip of poverty. I have made it clear before, and I make it clear once again, that I deplore the Tory Government's attack on working-class people. They are friends of the rich and show no interest in redistributing wealth to those most in need. The absolute opposite of what people are crying out for right now. Little interest is given to working people as the Tories fight among themselves, acting only in the interests of the rich. The impacts of their action are felt across the UK, including here in Scotland. I ask Elena Witham and her colleagues to work progressively with Scottish Labour to ensure that we rid the entire United Kingdom of the policies of this UK Government. Grashrut campaigners, trade genius and socialists, are organising right across the UK and here in Scotland fighting those injustices. Myself and the Scottish Labour colleagues are out day in, day out in solidarity with the trade unions, striking workers, with the SUTUC and with campaign groups, and we are now collectively saying enough is enough. Can I thank the Poverty Alliance for its briefing, which reminded us again of the need for immediate action from both our Governments in Scotland today. 24 per cent of children live in poverty, and I am going to say that again. 24 per cent of children in Scotland live in poverty. And if you have a disability or come from an ethnic minority, these figures are even worse. It is a disgrace. There is need for urgency in our approach to fighting poverty here in Scotland, and it demands that we here in the Scottish Parliament accept that this is an emergency and that to save lives we must do all that we can. I am grateful to my colleague Carol Malkin. If I had the chance to intervene on Marie McNair, I was about to say that I am really pleased that SNP activists have tabled a motion for their conference to do all that we can around ending child hunger and introducing universal free school meals for secondary school pupils. Is that a measure that Carol Malkin agrees that the Government needs to get on and deliver ASAP? I thank my colleague Monica Lennon for that intervention, who has worked tirelessly to support the intervention around food and food hunger for children, including the access to universal free school meals, which is part of the Government's intent, and we would like to see that come forward with much urgency. The poverty alliance has set out key asks of the Scottish Government, and I ask the backbenchers here tonight to push the front bench to deliver. I want in particular to mention the Scottish child payment. Increase the Scottish child payment to £40 per week. I applaud the Scottish Government for what it has done so far, but we know that it needs to go further. Amidst a cost of living crisis with a Tory Government, like one that we have never seen so brutal, it is absolutely pivotal that those most in need are supported financially to put food on the table and to ensure that the targets set out by the Scottish Government in relation to child poverty are met. Indeed, we know that the Scottish child payment contributes massively towards the tackling of child poverty and that it does alleviate pressure on family and receipt of it. I once again commend the Scottish Government for the progress that it has made, but now is no time for complacency. We must speed up the roll-out of this payment and constantly look at ways of increasing it. Many organisations believe that failure to deliver this will likely lead to failure of the Scottish Government to meet its own interim targets for child poverty, and I do not believe the Government or its backbenchers want that. There is no chance that the Scottish Government should do that willingly, and I do not believe that they would. Tackling child poverty is the best hope that we have of changing the trajectory of this country. I thank the member again for bringing that to the chamber, and I reach out to her and her colleagues to join us with grass-roots campaigners on the streets of Scotland to make our voices heard in communities. When we are here in the chamber, make sure that we save lives by demanding the Parliament that this Government do absolutely everything that it can to prioritise the eradication of poverty. We can do it, thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Thank you, Ms Walkhan. I now call Natalie Donne, who will be followed by Stuart McMillan, who will be the last speaker in the open debate, and up to four minutes, please, Ms Donne. Thank you, Presiding Officer. I thank Elena Whitham for bringing this important debate to the chamber. We can all talk about poverty in this chamber, but the most important voices are those who are experiencing it right now. Honestly, some of their testimonies are heart-breaking. One woman told the Joseph Rowntree Foundation, I'm scared to wean my baby when I look at the cost of food. I know I should be introducing food, but I am delaying that as long as possible. The Scottish Women's Budget Group quoted one woman stating, I feel forgotten about. I cut my own hair, I skip meals, I scrimp on heating so I can pay the mortgage. There is no support for us from anyone. An inclusion Scotland quoted someone stating, not being able to afford heating, part of my condition means I struggle to regulate my body temperature and I can be prone to hypothermia. I also rely on hot showers and hot water bottles to manage pain and I'm worried about how to afford that. I could die. This is the reality of life in 21st century Britain. We talk about poverty a lot in this chamber and rightly so, but what strikes me is that during every debate we have Tory members gaslighting, giving speeches about how they are the ones that want to solve child poverty, that the SNP need to do more. A point I find quite hard to believe when only one Tory member has chosen to take part in this debate. However, let's take a step back. I'm just interested in whether you make the same criticism of your green colleague partners who have got nobody in the chamber tonight. Well, if the member was listening to my speech, the main reasons for poverty fall are at the hands of the UK Tory Government, which is why I have decided to pick the Conservatives out. Let's take a step back. The Scottish Government has, and it continues to do what it can with the limited powers that it has. Members have already given a rundown of many of the steps that the Scottish Government is taking to eradicate poverty and work towards our poverty targets. However, how can we possibly hope to eradicate poverty in this country when we are dependent on the Tories down south and their mad spending decisions? The Tories have been in power for 12 years now and what has improved? They're destroying the economy, tax cuts for the rich, bankers' bonuses—it's not good enough. This week, we've seen the U-turn and the top rate of tax, but the damage has already been done. The markets are already in chaos. We've had Douglas Ross and the Tories stand here for the last two weeks and actually defend this policy. Now they want you to believe that they're reversing it because they care about people. No, they're doing it because they can see the absolute chaos that they created and couldn't find a way to defend it anymore. As important as this week is, we should not need to challenge poverty weeks in Scotland or in the UK. Poverty should be getting challenged each and every day of the year because there should not be a child in this country who is going to bed hungry or cold. I visited a toy bank in Renfrewshire a few months back. The energy prices were rising but it was still early days. Looking around at the toys that were sitting there ready to get packed up for birthdays or waiting on Christmas Day, I was thinking of the joy that will strike across some kids' faces when they get these toys, but coupled with that, it was a wave of sadness that it was under these circumstances. It should not be a case of prioritising gas over a child's toy this Christmas, but this is the hard reality. People must be sick of it, working to be in debt. For so many people right now, being in employment is not benefiting them. People are only just surviving and every day is a struggle to figure out what is going to get prioritised.  Be happy and thrive as opposed to scraping by, waiting for the trickle down that never comes. A country where children have opportunities where young people are positive about the future and where parents can strike a proper work-life balance and get to spend time enjoying life with their kids, where people are not thinking at every single turn how they are going to get through the next day. We can have a better future as an independent country. I have highlighted in this chamber before how we can use all the levers at our disposal to eradicate poverty in this country as a Scottish Government. We do tremendous work in this place to help those who need it the most, but while powers remain reserved to Westminster, I fear that we will never see poverty in Scotland come to an end. Just to finish off, we always use this term, heat in a written, like it's a nifty we rhyme to say, a sound bite or a punchline from the establishment now and again, but can I just highlight that it's not? It's reality for many, many people. People have to choose between having a warm meal and a warm house, and it's disgusting in 2022. I only fear that it's going to get worse if the unionist parties continue to play trickle-down economics that do nothing to improve the lives of my constituents and harms those who are living in poverty across Scotland. Thank you very much for playing us. First, I'd like to congratulate Elena Whitham on securing the debate. Challenging poverty is a decades-long fight, but it became more acute in the early 1980s, after the election of the Margaret Thatcher Government and also certainly in recent years. I will agree with Jeremy Balfour on one point. Jeremy Balfour spoke about the third sector and the huge important role that they play, and they do. I do agree with you on that, Mr Balfour. I am a board member of a... I thank the member for taking the intervention. Will he join Jeremy Balfour and I and Paul Bradley from SCVO in asking the cabinet secretary to meet them to talk to them about the potential of multi-year funding and look at the realities of what that could be so that they can deliver it in Scotland? I have said in this chamber before that I personally think that multi-year funding is the right way forward, but when you have a chaotic situation of budgets from Westminster to this Parliament, it makes it difficult for any Scottish Government in this Parliament to produce longer-term budgets. I do generally believe that longer-term budgets will be better for Scotland, but if we do not have to rely on Westminster to get the money here, then, if we are an independent country, we will not have that particular problem. Jeremy Balfour? I understand where the member is coming from, but would he recognise that you and I will be paid for in the next three years, that the civil service in Scotland will be paid for in the next three years, that lots of people in excess staff will be paid for three years, why have the voluntary sector the exception to the rule? Stuart McMillan? Once again, as I said a few moments ago, if we actually did not have to rely on that particular funding, Mr Balfour knows that it is a fact. If we had all the powers of independence here, then we would have that particular situation. I was touching upon me being a board member of a local organisation, because it is something that I have heard from people within that organisation about the issues of poverty that they have faced. Undoubtedly, the cost of living crisis and political decisions from Westminster are not helping the two-child limit, the universal credit five-week delay, the removal of the universal credit £20 uplift last year, and the bedroom tax. To name just four examples, austerity measures from Westminster are not something anyone can be proud of, whether it is Tory cuts or the beginning of austerity cuts under the last Labour UK Government. It is clear that Westminster does not work for the working class and working class communities. One of the most important aspects of the cost of living crisis is that of energy. No one in energy rich Scotland should be worried about putting on heating in their house. The regulation of energy in Britain is broken and it does not work for Scotland. Scotland pays to generate the energy to put on to the grid, but in the south of England it is paid to generate it. That patently is unfair. In reality, we have got the energy, but not the power. Pam Duncan Glancy spoke of her party and their political ambitions. We have heard those claims before. Nothing will change under Labour if they are elected to the UK Government. They are joined at the top of the Tories, as many local authorities in Scotland will prove. I have already given way. David Torrance spoke about a constituent. Yesterday, I heard a joint heating surgery with my local MP, Ronny Cymyn. I want to thank co-manager Scotland and the Open Wall Shopping Centre in Greenock for their assistance. One constituent came to speak to me. There was a number of them, but one in particular and she indicated to me that she spends most of her time in one room in her house. When she leaves that room and goes through the rest of the house, she does not put the light on in the house. She uses a torch to go through the house. She does not want to put on the lights because she is worried about the cost of energy. She is very careful about what she does. The member will be concluding as he marks her. She is very careful about what she does and about the amount of energy that she uses. No one resident in Scotland—whether it is in my constituency or elsewhere—should be living like that. If we want to tackle poverty, we need to have the powers over energy regulation, the financial powers, but ultimately independence to help our constituents and our communities. Once again, I want to thank Elena Whitham for securing this debate. I now call the minister, cabinet secretary, Shona Robison, to respond to the debate up to seven minutes, please, cabinet secretary. Okay, thanks, Presiding Officer. I'm very grateful to Elena Whitham for tabling this important debate and to those who have spoken so passionately about challenge poverty week, a week that is being recognised across the Scottish Government with ministers meeting grassroots organisations and local authorities, taking innovative action to tackle poverty. Attending the launch of the poverty in Scotland report yesterday, I was struck by the strength of commitment that we have as a country to tackling poverty and, as ever, the importance of listening to those with real-life experience of living on a low income. Making this country fairer and more equal is at the heart of the work that we do every day to help those who are struggling today, as well as investing in the changes that will prevent poverty in the future. This year's challenge poverty week could not be more important, given the cost of living crisis and the decisions that the UK Government has made that are reducing choices that each and every household can make. I stood before this Parliament in March and presented best start-right futures, our second tackling child poverty delivery plan. I was clear then, as I'm clear now, that tackling poverty is a collective effort that is required across society, public, private and third sectors to work together to tackle child poverty and deliver the change needed. On the point about multi-year budgets, two weeks ago I asked officials to begin to make more rapid progress with third sector organisations around moving forward with multi-year budgets. I recognise very much, particularly when finances are tight, that having that certainty of knowing what budgets are going forward is really important to the third sector, so I'm happy to be able to update Parliament as progress is made on that matter. Thank you, cabinet secretary, for taking the intervention. Would the cabinet secretary be prepared to meet with SCVO as requested to discuss this in more detail? The third sector, SCVO and other organisations, on a regular basis, that officials do, and I've met them fairly recently. We discussed a number of issues, including multi-year budgets, so that's already under way. The UK is facing the most severe economic upheaval in a generation, and families are feeling the strain of alarming rises in costs. We can all see it in our energy bills and in the supermarket aisles. Over the past two weeks, since the UK Government's so-called mini-budget, we have seen another economic wave that will hit everyone. The challenges being faced by so many can feel utterly overwhelming. While reversing the scrapping of the 45p tax rate for the highest earners was finally the right thing to do, the UK Government should never have made that decision in the first place. I think that it was more down to parliamentary arithmetic than a change in values that led to that decision. It shows how absolutely not in touch with the everyday challenges that households are facing right now, particularly those in poverty, that they are. Just illustrating that point, the idea that they would focus and potentially sanction people who are on universal credit and who are working if they don't secure more hours or a better-paid job shows how out of touch they are and how they don't understand the power relationship between someone in a low-paid job and their employer. It is not like someone in a high-paid job who negotiates their salary in a promoted post. People are literally hanging on to jobs with their fingernails and do not have the power to ask for more hours or ask for more money. It is just so out of touch and to sanction people who are working poor is just unbelievable at this current time. They should absolutely think again. Elena Witter made some important points about the need for flexible working and being able to have jobs that at least pay the living wage, but also that flexibility to take account of childcare requirements, for example. Of course, she was quite right to call for the scrapping of the universal credit five-week wait, the rate clause, the two-child limit. There were a number of other points made by a number of people. Just one issue that I want to come back to is that Jeremy Balfour made a point about the employability budget. It is wrong to represent a misrepresentation of the facts to say that £53 million has been cut from disabled people. That is just not the case. Although the Deputy First Minister said that he would look to see what could be done in terms of protecting employability support, I can confirm that the £24 million that is in the budget for 2022-23 from Fair Start Scotland provides intensive and personalised support to unemployed disabled people and those with health conditions or other barriers to getting into work. I would not want it to be presented as if there is no employability support for people with disabilities, because that is far from the case. I go back to the point that £18 billion worth of cuts potentially coming down the line will put this Parliament and this Government into unchartered waters that we have never seen before. On that point, I will take Jeremy Balfour. I am grateful to the cabinet secretary. I absolutely recognise her point, but what the Deputy First Minister said at the committee last week is that those who are not part of the disability employment scheme at this moment will probably not be able to benefit from that scheme in the next six months. Those who are in it will benefit, but he made clear that if somebody today wants to join one of those schemes, they may not get in it because of that cut that was made by her Government. We will continue to do what we can, particularly for the most vulnerable and the employability support that we have has been pivoted to the most vulnerable, particularly to parents, to make sure that we can support them and the six priority families. We will continue to do that, but Jeremy Balfour cannot escape responsibility for the value of this Scottish Government's budget going down by £1.7 billion because of inflation and the tsunami of £18 billion potentially worth of cuts of which would impact severely on the Scottish budget, and he cannot evade responsibility for that. The Scottish Government has—I will need to make some progress, because I do not have to believe— A brief intervention would probably be in order if the cabinet secretary wishes. I thank the cabinet secretary for taking the intervention. Is the cabinet secretary content that a proper equality impact assessment of the cuts to employability support holds up the assertions that people will still get the support that they need? Deputy First Minister made clear that that is not something that we would want to do, but if budgets are reduced to the Scottish Government and the value of our budget goes down, difficult decisions will have to be made. However, what we have been clear about is that we are going to pivot employability resources towards those who need it most, particularly to make sure that those commitments that are made in the child poverty delivery plan are going to go ahead with the parental transitions fund because we need to make sure that people get into work. We have laid out on a number of occasions the support that we have provided—almost £3 billion this year—to support those who are on low incomes and households that are under pressure. Almost a third of that, over £1 billion, is only available in Scotland with the remainder being more generous than that provided elsewhere in the UK. On a fixed and pressured budget, that has required us to take hard decisions, but it is important that those decisions are focused on supporting those who need it most. Of course, as I think it was David Torrance outlined, by the end of 2022, our package of five family payments will be worth more than £10,000 for eligible families on the lowest incomes by the time their first child turns six. In excess of anything else, anywhere in the UK, Carol Mawkin asked about the Scottish child payment, and we have brought it forward. We have brought it forward to the 14 November, so next month everyone who is eligible with a child under 16 will be able to apply for the Scottish child payment. It will be backdated to the point of application. That is a huge support for families at a time that they need it most. We will continue, of course, through our emergency budget review, to look at what more we can do to add to the budgetary tax and benefit cap mitigation, £129 million through the Scottish welfare fund and discretionary housing payments, helping people to stay in their homes. Of course, there is always more we need to do, and we will continue to look at what more we can do. People and businesses have been deeply impacted by the cost of living crisis. The Government has vowed to do everything we can to mitigate as far as possible, while meeting the increased costs of public sector pay and, of course, balancing our budget as we are required to do. We will continue to work closely with partners and local government, the third sector, businesses, communities and, of course, people with direct experience to ensure that we are making every effort possible to make sure that every household in Scotland is able to weather the storm and turn the tide together. Thank you, cabinet secretary. That concludes the debate. I close this meeting.


Good morning. Good afternoon. Good evening. Wherever you may be hailing from this is the fedora podcast episode number 37 I know this is not our usual time slots. No, I didn't click the go live button by accident We have a very special edition. We teased it last episode. We have a very special edition of the fedora podcast We changed the date and time Partly because when the the announcement was made but also due to some time zone challenges So no, eric has not lost his mind This was planned and i'm really really excited i'm really really excited to introduce our guests because Fedora and slim book actually made a huge announcement just a few days ago So with that said, let me bring on our guests and and introduce them to you all Gentlemen, thank you so much for joining me. I know it's late in the evening where you are Where you all are at. So thank you so much for joining me Hi, hello. Hello. Thank you for having us. It's a pleasure to be here. Yes Awesome. Yeah, I'm really excited. I'm watching our viewer count and there's people trickling in like wait We don't we don't have fedora podcast episodes at 9am central time in the us. What's going on? So if you have any questions for for our guests today, make sure you put them in chat Or if you're catching this after the fact throw them in the comments But with that said you guys are from from slim book. So why don't we introduce yourselves and then we'll we'll introduce What was announced? So vaja, why don't you kick us off? Uh, hello, my name is vaja. I'm from georgia I was born born there. So I came came here in spain and And since six years old I have been living here. So um I work at slim books and six months now And it's a I'm like a guy to work here with alejandro. Yes And well, I am alejandro from from spain. I I am the CEO of the of the company. I founded a slim book eight years ago And well, it's a a pleasure for for me Have a have better in in the team. It's a a great person and They are making big big things with with us Well, I like For for more more information about us. I like a Playing games In a tour and Well and play with with my daughter She she has three years old and I like I love linux and nothing more Three three is a really really fun age. Uh, I've got uh four kids in a blended family And my youngest is about to turn five and There are days where I miss when she couldn't talk because now she calls me out when dad says something that doesn't make sense. So But such a such a fun age and and uh, I trust that her dad will uh, will teach her all the linux things and uh, Um, and hopefully her first laptop is is a slim book Yeah, that would be perfect I know that the kids they need to learn at an early age The the linux community and the part of this beautiful community we have For sure. Yeah, I I am a huge fan of our community. Uh, that's part of the reason why uh, why I Work with the fedora podcast. It gives me a chance to meet and talk with uh, with people like yourselves From all over the globe from all different walks of life. It's it's a lot of fun Um, so why don't we kick this off with what was announced? We we uh, we I found out about this about a week ago and was was really excited. I've followed slim book Pretty much since since you founded the company. So what what was announced from from slim books perspective? Well, we are now we announced the fedora slim book edition laptop It's an ultra book laptop with Nvidia graphics card and 12 gen intel i7 processor And well, it's very sleek very unique design that blends with the stylish and modern laptops And just check check it out guys. It's very good product. We have so it comes with fedora pre-stand It's right right here. Oh good. We I didn't even think about show and tell That is beautiful the slim book logo right next to the fedora logo. I love it Yes, and that is super thin Oh my gosh, that looks amazing. I need to get my hands on one It comes with up to 64 gigabytes of ram et cetera et cetera. You can check it out the Detail set of our webpage fedora slim book.com. That's yes. Sorry And well, it's a collaboration between slim book and fedora and this couple of weeks It's been wonderful to collaborate with the fedora team and Well, it's here on the fedora slim book Yeah, so I'll throw that that link in the in the show notes and it's in the chat as well If you're catching the audio version, we are live on youtube and You should jump to the chapter marker About what was announced because what what a la hondro held up was very very sleek Laptop it very very much I my other life I have a macbook and And just the construction just the appearance gives that that refined Look that we've come to expect from from say an apple product But one of one of my favorite things about that about what you what you showed the audience was That where the super key goes or or from from other folks may notice the windows key Was not was not uh was not the windows logo. It was the fedora logo So when you go to hit the super key, it says fedora and I I Love the fact that we have such a good-looking laptop with the fedora branding on it and obviously it's it's got to run It's got to run linux out of the box so well This has been a really exciting partnership to kind of get to know So how how has uh, how has fedora and slim book kind of collaborated on this project? How did that how did that come to be? Sorry first of the The question 10 years ago, we in in the in the linux conferences All people have a apel laptops. No, it's it's It's it's good, but 10 years ago, we we thinking why all people have Apel laptops with with linux. We not other brands top level a high level high end for for this laptop and It's why we start this this adventure Yes, the There was a need for a good-looking modern and powerful laptop that comes with pre-installed linux and with 100% compatibility compatibility with linux systems like fedora this case There wasn't any much options in the market. So Alejandro come with the with this slim book option that we Until today we are offering a good product that comes with 100% linux compatibility laptops So this is why federal linux is one of the best in the market Love that and you you're you absolutely hit it that for years If you were a linux enthusiast you had to take take somebody else's branded laptop and and try and shove linux on top of it Like one of the best systems I ever had was a macbook 2013 edition and it ran arch like a champ Um, I mean those were back in the days when I didn't have kids and So I could run arch now now i'm now i'm all bought in on fedora But I mean a great looking laptop something that's performant that runs linux out of the box I love what you all are doing So I know the question that everybody's going to be asking is Where can I go to get it? Is it just is it just at the uh, is it at your all's? Digital storefront the the link that we provided or is it available through through third party vendors? Where else can we get our hands on this? and yes for now And that depends in the future, but for now you can access our Access and buy from our web page web page fedora That's slimbook.es and it's our online web store You can customize the What preference of ram and ssd you want and about a week you will have at home What about what about shipping?  Yes global anywhere in the world Awesome. So I'm I'm in Kansas City, Missouri in the United States. So if you could get one, you know on the truck that'd be great Perfect sounds good in a week or maybe less depends on the How much we have right now the Shipping process you will have the The new laptop in about a week That's awesome So I also heard rumors That you had a discount program for fedora contributors, is that right? yes, yes Alejandro decided that the discount as for fedora or red hat contributors should have a more Access to this laptop because they are contributing fedora also and it's Why we Came up with this idea for them to have and this fedora laptop Okay, so we've had we've that's that's awesome. Um as as a red hatter and as a fedora contributor. I Even more compelling reason to go and check this out. My wife is not going to be thrilled with this episode So we we've had a couple of questions come in over chat about about some of the hardware The first question was about How how is this laptop with thermal efficiency?  So how how is thermal efficiency with with the laptop like this? well As you can expect it's intel and nvidia in the same chassis. So Our slim book fedora laptop it comes with double Ventilation double hit sync and It handles quite well. So depends of the user workload And in the bios we have also a setting that Changes depending on what you choose the silence mode or performance mode and if you want that The laptop should run quietly. You can enable the silent mode and it has a thermal limit that it can No longer exceed the temperatures And it also is quiet. So Also, you can enable the performance mode and it doesn't restrict anything Hmm And so As a follow-up to that you mentioned that it's intel and nvidia And so the question that came in was How does the nvidia card work out of the box? We know that nvidia drivers require a few extra steps to enable under fedora and under a lot of different linux distributions So does the image does the system come pre imaged or are there easy steps that maybe Maybe a handout in the box or something that helps a new user enable the nvidia card Worship our fedora slim book laptop with vanilla settings. So once the for example, you You receive the new fedora slim book laptop You've opened it and the first thing that tells you is enter your username and after that it asks you if you want novel drivers or proprietary drivers, so Depends of the user entirely So no modifications only the fedora you expect Guess so after the episode I may go and see if I can track down a recent blog post on on how to enable both the no view No, I Difficult to pronounce that Or or the proprietary drivers. So that that'll be good to to have in our show notes One of the other questions that came in was I mean it it is a good-looking laptop, but how how's the battery life? And well also that depends of the user it has 82 watt hour battery and also it has 16 inch screen with three care resolution So depends of the brightness the workload Everything depends, but we don't like to give the users area I'm a regular office user most of the time i'm working in slide decks. I'm attending virtual meetings Uh, a lot of times my laptops are not heavily taxed. So if i'm just doing regular office type work What what kind of uh if I take it to a coffee shop or something could I expect to get an eight hour charge out of it? Six to eight hours. Perfectly That's Yeah, that's that's always a loaded question of How great's the battery? Well, I mean if you're running six different very Resource intensive applications all at once and you're doing video editing then probably not that much, but yeah That's true of any any battery. But uh, yeah, I should have given you a scenario to work off of I kind of set you up for that one. Sorry about that It's okay Okay, so let's see we we've kind of got caught up on chat. We've got some we've got some future looking questions here But we'll circle back to those um So shifting gears a little bit because I know we've got a few uh frequent viewers on the show that uh that are big fans of spins And uh, so you mentioned that it's it's just fedora workstation out of the box very vanilla not not anything customized not anything specifically tailored Pretty much because fedora does pretty much all of its work upstream anyway So anything that gets introduced into the upstream kernel would would find its way into the fedora kernel Uh, so what about spins? Uh, would there be options for preloaded spins in the future? Maybe something like uh fedora kde or uh, I know we've got a lot of folks that are big fans of the upcoming, uh, budgie spin Hmm Well, the user the user can can install another distributions, but um The the flower of fedora is chosen by by fedora For this laptop, please. Yes The The decision the decision comes from fedora itself. So, uh, we are not Uh Telling the user to not to pre-install anything The user is free to install anything they want But the fedora slim book laptop Comes with pre-installed vanilla out of the box With genome, of course So And i'm pretty sure I know who submitted that question Uh, so it'd be very easy to just go up go out to get fedora.org Grab any of the spins isos whether it's whether it's uh, Whether it's onyx, which I think is coming up here fairly soon Whether it's the kde spin any of these anything that that is fedora-based and Throw it on usb stick plug it into the laptop re-image the laptop and you'd get You'd get a reasonable performance from from any of the spins no matter what they are. Yes The user is the main The owner of the machine so doesn't void any warranty or Anything like that. So the user user Can download the any Fedora flavor they want installing the usb and run it The same day if they want And so another pre-submitted question we had along the same lines was Fedora is listed among a number of distros that can be pre-installed on a lot of your different devices What is the what is the Testing process look like how do you validate that that a distribution works well on top of slim book? Well, we first install like any other laptop or user We just the performance what we could expect versus what we are getting so We test webcam Keyboard the trackpad touchpad. I mean we tested everything that could be Some if something goes wrong the user should not expect anything like that. We can detect it before the user detects so We tried also the next version of fedora and Works just as Issued so no problem for that um, so it does look like uh, the model i'm looking at does have usb c which was uh, one of the one of the questions We had in chat There's more geared towards thunderbolt, but uh Yes, it's thunderbolt 4 thunderbolt 4 with 40 gigabytes of and bandwidth It's support. Oh, wow Yes, it supports Display port and hdmi and power supply power supply. Yes, you can charge your laptop also and up to 14 cores 20 threads. I mean, yes, this is this is an amazing amazing device i7 12 1700 yes h and It runs very well, so check it out guys Oh, let's see All right, sorry. We we had a barrage of questions come in and i'm i'm kind of uh, I see you So one of the themes in the questions that we've been getting is Did did fedora really get any any special treatment? But and and whether you're deciding on what addition of fedora to run whether you're talking about What hardware to select but looking at at your main site? It looks like fedora was just able to To just be shipped with a slim book. It didn't look like anything specific went into this. Is that correct? uh, well our standard choices Works with linux And then work with with fedora, no Just the Fedora and slim book has the same idea. So it's uh, why not? and uh And and there's there's a question in chat here that uh, I want to bring up and and this was on my list as well So the million dollar question Are there plans in the future for amd addition whether that cpu gpu both? Because I know that that I I'm most of my hardware in the house now is is amd based. So is is amd in the future Well, uh, maybe it might be in the in the future. Uh, this would still have another questions because uh, for example a Thunderbolt 4 is uh Intel property and uh, no No, many laptops have no, no many amd laptops have thunderbolt 4 it's uh licensed it's uh licensed only for intel. Yes, and some Other laptops but not all laptops. Yes some amd laptops has thunderbolt, but you have to license it That's I think what wants to mean well The amd version of fedora's limbo laptop depends entirely of the success of the this edition so Why not we are not closing any doors in the in the future if The community wants amd fedora's limbo laptop We would like to do that but for now only intel Yeah, that's depends also for the community Also sounds like slingbook fedora and the linux community at large has work to do on on some of the bigger corporations to To get some more freedom as as far as what hardware options are available Yes, we are working with several models of slingbooks right now, but the most uh How do I say that we are thinking of Another laptop the same ones but in 14 inch that depends of the success of this version but of course the community has to speak if they want to The same one without the nvidia graphics card the same processor the same Chassis the same touch pad but in the 14 inch version and with the same tax key the fedora tax key and the fedora logo and the chasis Yeah, and I would uh, I would throw my vote in for for a 14 inch Most of my workloads are cloud focused now A lot of my demos that I I do for work are built on one cloud or another So I don't really need a lot of compute power with me I spend a lot of time at airports and in conference centers. So Small light weights and and portable are usually things I look for in a laptop So I don't know if the the it guy word is it carries a lot of weight with slim book, but uh, there's my vote Why not For the Powerfulness, it's the same i7. So there should be any differences, but the graphics card Yeah Letting letting go of the the graphics card Where it would be a huge boost in both weight and and battery life So and and I see a few a few of votes for 14 inch in in the chat as well. So One thing I love about the fedora community is we we are very open and very welcoming But also also slightly opinionated So So I noticed this question a little bit earlier It looks like you've got desktops laptops and some peripherals There's there's a question about any thoughts about producing a slim phone That runs fedora Well I don't know The smartphones is a it's a another market It's a it's a different market a very very competitive with very competitors Yeah, it's a completely different market Yes, some other brands of spanish brands try to do that and I mean the people choose iphone samsung and Not many Yes, it's a it's a difficult way I think that you you remember a purisma. I think that the the people are asking for it and It's a very big advantage for for purism and they have They had a many problems with it With a final success, but it's a long long adventure Long way Well, maybe maybe slim book will make such a fortune off of selling fedora slim books that That you just You know, you've got so much money to throw at this idea that that the slim phone will will be the future Yeah, why not we hope so All right any any closing thoughts any anything you want to anything you want to mention anything we didn't cover We kind of blew through the through the agenda really quick Well Nothing else Any Questions for us from the community. I see a lot of questions right there in the comment section, but Nothing else from our side. We have to collaborate to make linux better every day. So This is why also the collaboration between fedora and slim book Yes, it's important for us to collaborate with linux entities with fedora with you know And make linux a better place for for all So during during the pre pre show we were talking about why we do this live versus prerecorded And I think I think the the folks that showed up today Are a prime example of why I prefer to do this live Just because they like tripled the list of questions that I had to bring up on today's episode so thank you very much to the fedora community that that That jumped up here and and you know, we had a different different time of day in fact, we did back to back episodes usually the shows every other week, but Because of the timing of the announcement we we managed to squeeze in an extra episode, but Really really Excited that the fedora community hung out with us and and had some questions for you all they they really make the content Even even better. I can I can only do so much and and having folks show up and ask questions really appreciate that and and I'm very appreciative that the two of you were willing to jump on and Really excited that you all were agreed to jump on and Be pounded with questions for 30 minutes. So really appreciate that So as we as we wrap up fedora slim book just announced Brand new hardware platform beautiful laptop has the fedora logo anywhere. We could find to put it. It's on it's on the top It's it's on the super key. Yeah. Yeah bring that bring that beautiful laptop back up on the on the screen So if you're if you're watching the the audio edition definitely go to Go to Was it fedora dot slim book dot es that link will be in the show notes whether it's the live Whether it's youtube or wherever you get your podcast that will be in the show notes after the episode goes live And that is available right now So you can go out you can spec it out you can buy it And then in case you missed it earlier want to bring up the the the fact that if you're red hat if you're a red hat Or fedora contributor. There's actually a discount and I don't think we covered this before but What what kind of discount are we talking like? like one percent fifty percent free About a hundred dollars hundred and five dollars and with the conversion it's hundreds euros. So Just email us with your fedora account And we'll take care of the discount The carbon discount.  That's that's nothing to nothing to scoff at these days So that's awesome. So if you're a part of the community, definitely go and get a get a slim book I'm hoping in in the 2024 linux fest uh circuit that I see a bunch of these all over the place We can we can start to push maybe some some macbooks out of the out of the conference now that we've got a really good Look in a slim book to to compete with it With that said, thank you all very much for joining us Really excited, whether you caught it live whether you're catching it after the fact The audio edition usually goes out about 24 hours after the the live edition It takes some time to get the the audio synced up to get everything cleaned up But uh really excited and if you didn't notice we had our new bumpers in It was really excited that uh that we got that done We've got to fix up the the transition a little bit But I mean the music the the animation you have to see it here first So our special edition slim book episode also included the uh the intro bumper that we've been working on really I'm excited. I started doing fedora podcast episodes about six seven months ago and uh Our our audience has grown the the community of participation has grown And I say that not in part to thank the audience but also because next week Yes, we're doing three episodes in three weeks. It's craziness, but here in three weeks We're going to have neil gapa on he is a longtime fedora contributor He he works on just about everything. I see him in the sento s world. I see him in fedora world Um There's a little bit of everything everywhere. Uh, so I don't think the guy sleeps He's also uh, he also took over my seat on the pseudo show is one of the hosts there So there's just the guy does stuff everywhere. So we're actually going to have an ongoing like Story arc if you will about uh, how do you fedora? And so we're going to have neil on He's going to talk about his experiences with the fedora community how he got involved And what he's doing today in the fedora community. So Definitely looking forward to having more of those episodes. Definitely looking forward to catching up with neil He and I haven't talked much Work's been crazy and and so So really looking forward to catching up with neil with that said Definitely check us out on the fedora discussion board. There's usually an episode Thread so you can keep the conversation going Make sure to subscribe hit that like button That way we know what content resonates with you Uh on on behalf of the fedora community alhandro and vaja. Thank you guys for joining us And uh, I have been eric the it guy hindricks. So thank you all for joining us and we will see you next time Thank you