Welcome to the 14th meeting in 2023 of the Local Government Housing and Planning Committee. We have received apologies from Mark Griffin for their meeting today. It may remind all members and witnesses theăm to ensure that their devices are on silent and that all other notifications are turned off during the meeting. The first item on our agenda today is to decide whether to take item three in private. Is that agreed member with none? We are all agreed. The next item on our agenda today Men bars that we see evidence on damp and mould in social and private rented housing from two separate panels of witnesses. On panel one we are joined by Rosemary Agnew Ombudsman from the Scottish Public Services Ombudsman, Calam Homeshoot, who is the national director of chartered Institute of Housing Scotland, Nicola Harcas, who is the assistant director of regulations Scottish Housing Regulator and Helen Shaw, who is the director of regulations Scottish Housing housing regulator. I welcome our witnesses to the meeting. I will begin with questions. This one is for everybody, but again you don't have to come in on everything and I think we've got some specific questions that relate to your specific work. I'd be interested to get your sense of the scale of the problem of dampness and mould in rented housing. For example, is it more prevalent in a particular housing type or a geographical area? Do you think that data in this area could be improved? Maybe I'll start with Calum. Thanks, convener. I think that the scale of the problem is quite hard to... I think you've heard this in previous sessions. I would also, however, stress that it is an absolute priority for the sector to focus on the instances of damp and mould that are appearing and are being presented to landlords across the sector. I think that what we've found over certainly the last recent months, but before that, is that landlords are doing more and more to try and measure the scale of the problem to understand the state of their housing stock across Scotland. We're seeing landlords reflecting more on previous customer complaints, looking at patterns of complaints to understand that there are instances of damp and mould. We're finding more systemising of data collection, so we're finding landlords trying to repeat more tense surveys to understand what instances of damp and mould not always requiring customers to come forward with instances, but to look at systematic ways to capture data, and looking at things such as digital monitoring and technology to try to capture that. We don't have a complete picture. The committee has heard that in previous weeks. We can say that we have confidence at the absolute scale of the prevailing, but we do say that the sector is taking steps to understand it much more deeply and respond to it appropriately, and I think that we'll probably get some of the responses to that later. That sounds like a good approach, a systematic approach. I've come across constituents who, I don't think that the challenge of the situation is so strong on their mental health that they're not necessarily going to come forward with the issue, so it sounds good that that is an approach. Rosemary, in your work, have you got a sense of the scale of the problem from people coming to you? I think that I'd echo what Callan said. The statistics on it are quite low, but there are some things that we can identify. We started recently logging complaints specifically as Mold or Damp, whereas up to last year they were generally within housing repairs. What we have gone back and looked at is that although the numbers are small, there were seven last year where we'd either logged them or we'd identify Mold and Damp as an issue. Compare that to this year, since April, where there have been 10 already. What we are not able to identify are specific themes, but echoing something that Callan said, there are some general points emerging in relation to complaints. These are often cases that are resolved rather than investigated. Bear in mind that I'm specifically looking at it with an RSL or a local authority focus, but they tend to get fixed—a phone call and it tends to get fixed or further monitoring taken—so they are less likely to appear in investigation statistics, which suggest to me that landlords are taking it seriously. Individual cases have varied, but there are occasions where it's tagged as a lifestyle issue. It might be the amount of washing, showering or whatever. Some of it is that, but there are cases where people have been moved from housing because the problem has just been intractable. It is being taken seriously and we are sensing a shift to giving this more priority. From the physical building point of view, there is probably more to be done. More interesting for us has been that we looked at our data on welfare fund applications. Those were where there were appeals to applications to the Scottish welfare fund. That was a little more tricky because we don't track those specifically. However, we have noticed that there were seven cases where there was the experience and impact of mould and damp on a family where they have poor financial resilience, so they are likely to be in specific demographic areas rather than geographic areas. I would say that they are not all registered social landlords and that, but what the claims to the fund have been about is that things like a one-off leak has caused mould as an ongoing thing. It might be mouldy bedding, mouldy clothing. When you have low financial resilience, you are probably struggling to pay your bills, the cost of living is going up, you are probably struggling to pay for food and you won't have your heating on all the time. It's that impact that I don't think particularly gets picked up in the same way. For me, there is definitely understand the structural things. Is it the type of building or is it what's been done to it? However, the people side of it probably needs more exploration. Helen, from your perspective, the same question, that do we have a sense of the scale and do you get a sense that it might be in a particular type of housing, a geographical area? I've even been thinking not necessarily even a geographical area, but even the ground the houses are built on or maybe the way in which they're built. I echo very much what Callum and Rosemary are saying. It is quite difficult to determine the scale of the problem because there isn't any national or direct measurement specifically of the instance of mould and damping properties and our role is in relation to social landlords, both local authorities and RSLs. The fundamental role of social landlords is to provide tenants with homes that are safe to live in. Our regulatory standards and requirements are also very much focused on ensuring that social landlords are delivering good outcomes for tenants. In terms of stock quality, our focus is on monitoring landlords' performance against the Scottish housing quality standard. There are references in there about properties meeting the tolerable standard, being free from serious disrepair, making sure that properties are energy efficient and have modern facilities and are healthy, safe and secure. It's quite hard to look at those and then think that it would be reasonable or acceptable for properties to be experiencing, moulding and damp. In terms of the statistics that we get from landlords, we know that at March last year, 75 per cent of all social landlords' homes met the Scottish housing quality standard. That was a dip in performance from the previous year. Part of the reason that landlords are telling us that they weren't compliant with SHQS was around other issues other than mould and damp to do with things such as the introduction of new requirements around the electrical installation certificate testing and the link smoke and heat detectors. We are just about to receive the next round of the annual return on the charter from landlords at the end of this month. We will have a clearer picture from that data about what progress landlords have made in terms of bringing their properties up to the SHQS. I'm just going to take another one on with Helen. I'll come back to you, Calum. You mentioned the Scottish housing quality standard, and then there's also the Scottish social housing charter. I'd be interested to know if you are considering any more specific monitoring about the prevalence of damp and mould in social housing. I think that we should be doing that. We're doing a number of things. We are required every five years to review a regulatory framework, so we have commenced this year a review of our regulatory framework. One of the things that we're looking at as part of that is that we've already identified that we felt that there was a potential gap in some of the data that we collect in relation to tenant and residence safety more generally. In light of some of the events over the last few months, we've been looking specifically at what potential indicators we could collect in relation to monitoring progress with mould and damp. We will be consulting with stakeholders on our proposals around that, and that will include opportunities for tenants and landlords to give us their views on what would be appropriate indicators. Our thinking is probably around how quickly landlords respond to issues of mould and damp and how quickly landlords rectify the problems that are being identified. That's our current thinking, but we will be consulting with the sector over the next few months. We'll be interested to hear tenants and landlords' views about what's the best way for us to do that. Speed seems to be quite an important one, but it's good to be consulting with everybody. Calum, you wanted to come back. I just wanted to add to Helen's point about the kind of prevalence. While obviously the last six months, eight months have had a lot of attention quite rightly on damp and mould, we've saw a number of media reports around FOIs conducted that can suggest a really increased prevalence. I don't think we can necessarily make that assumption. I think it's encouraging tenants to come forward perhaps in the way they weren't. I think that's back to my earlier point. I think that's why it's incredibly important that the sector can systemise its approach to ensure that we're capturing data and not waiting for customers and tenants to come forward. We'll find a way to collect that data and respond to it in a timely and preventive way. I think that some of the headlines can look quite alarming that we're seeing double digits increase in prevalence, but we shouldn't be seeing damp and mould. I think that the sector's committee wants to eliminate as far as practically possible, but I just don't think that necessarily the figures suggest that it's changed in a lot of ways. We need to get back and respond to the root cause of damp and mould, and that's what landlords are looking to do. Okay, great. Thanks very much for that. Maybe this question has been answered in what you just said. The housing ombudsman had a follow-up report on dampness in English social housing and noted that one clear area that landlords in England needed to improve in their knowledge is of their stock. How do social landlords currently monitor dampness problems in their properties in Scotland? Are you content that social landlords know their stock well enough to take proactive action to deal with the potential dampness? I think that that's what you're saying now. There's a move to systematise and be more proactive on that. There is, convener. We are taking a lot of steps across the sector, and we'll continue to do so. The steps that are taken will not be sufficient. We will need to adapt and respond to that as we go on. I do think that there are obviously more. That's just about measuring the stock quality in a lot of it. That's measuring the scale of the problem. I think that there's a second part that is about then addressing that fundamental problem. What are the root causes? Are we entering homes often enough? Are we using skilled consultants and contractors who are specialist in dampness and moulds? Are we ensuring that tenants are able to heat their homes properly to address them, since, for example, there's a lot more in the response that we can still continue to do as well? We are starting to make a headway, and we are monitoring the stock in a more thoughtful way. Rosemary or Helen, do you have any more thoughts to add? If I could just add out a couple of things to echo what Callum is saying. In light of the events down in Rochedale last year, we wrote to all social landlords before Christmas, and I think that we shared that letter with the committee. Part of that, the purpose of that letter, was to emphasise the importance of landlords looking at their systems and satisfying themselves that they had robust processes and systems in place for dealing with any complaints about problems with mould and damp, and to understand what processes and systems they have in place to make sure that they are fixed appropriately. We've asked all social landlords to tell us if they identified any issues with their systems and processes and where those landlords have spoken to us. We are engaging with them to get assurance about the steps that they are taking to improve those services. We have also published updated recommended practice and asset management for all social landlords earlier this year. That is very much focused, as Callum says, and emphasising to landlords that they have good quality, robust information about the condition of their stock, to help them to inform their planned maintenance and investment programmes, but also to set that alongside the information that they have about what their tenants need. Those are both quite important pieces of work. Thank you very much for that. Rosemary, do you want to come in? I was just going to add one other thing. It's about whether there is something like a one-off event or something that can be fixed. There probably needs to be clarity over what the landlord will do and pay for. I'm thinking, for example, of if you've had a damp problem because of a leak and, oh, we need dehumidifiers in here. They need to run for 24 hours a day for a while. If you're struggling to pay your electricity bill, then you're going to struggle to do that. So I think there does need to be clarity about what landlords will pay for when they do the fix as well. That's a very good point. Thanks very much for that. I'm now going to move to questions from Marie McNair. Thank you, convener, and good morning, panel. At a previous committee session on this topic, Shelter Scotland, Living Rent and Sitness Advice Scotland advised that some landlords still have the attitude to blame their tenants for dampness and mould in their homes, and that problem was likely caused by lifestyle issues. Do you agree that that attitude still exists among some landlords, and if so, how can such attitudes be changed? I'll pop that to Helen first, if that's okay. I would hope that that isn't the case. I think that one of the other things that we have done as a regulator is work with SFHA, the Chartered Institute of Housing and Elantral to produce some advice for landlords about how to deal with issues around a bit mould and damp, and I think that there's a very clear message in there that it's not reasonable to blame tenants for a lifestyle. I think that there's a range of reasons why properties have mould and damp. Some of it is caused by condensation, which results from normal day living. You should be able to use your shower to wash your clothes and dry your clothes in a home, so I think that certainly the emphasis that we would encourage landlords to take is to listen to their tenants and to understand the root causes of the problems for dampness and mould, and to work where appropriate with tenants to help support them, live in their house the best way that they can. I think that that would be our expectation and our requirement of social landlords. Unfortunately, there still is an issue with tenants being blamed, but hopefully that attitude is getting changed. Anyone else want to come in? I'm reflecting on a real-life experience of visiting a home of somebody who had mould and it wasn't damp, it was mould. It was caused by condensation and they'd had new double glazing fitted by their social housing landlord and they weren't opening the windows, it was the middle winter, it was cold, and they were drying the washing on the radiators and it was cold, so there was a lot of condensation in the air, but what that I think for me highlighted is those aren't problems that we should be looking to fix. I think those are issues that landlords should be encouraged to work with and support their tenants to help them understand and help support them through it because it can be quite insignificant maybe for us, but very significant if you're on a low income. Yeah, don't worry about the mould in the bathroom, you just need to clean it off with bleach every day. Well, if you're struggling to pay for food, you're not going to double your bleach bill, and I know that might sound minor, but these things are often big impacts. If you're having to work and juggle a couple of jobs, do you have time to do all of this? So I think this comes back to the support rather than fix, needs to be the attitude, and I think we're moving there. Yeah, and I absolutely agree, I don't think we can and we shouldn't be blaming tenants, it's not a lifestyle issue, the Ombusman England is 100% right, you're home, it's supposed to be habitable, and I think, and I also agree with Helen, I think it's disappointing where this does occur and it shouldn't occur, but I absolutely accept that it does occur from time to time, and I think a lot of this comes from, I think as Rosemary said, the tenants and landlords should be working together, it needs to be a kind of skill set amongst landlords to be able to support tenants, it's probably too easy at times to blame a tenant because it's seen as a solution because then that responsibility is passed to someone else. If practitioners and landlords were, had more knowledge and skills in some of the more challenging issues, to deal with maybe some of the structural issues that are in a home, then we wouldn't get to that point at 10 and blaming, so I think the more that we can increase the knowledge and skills and deal with some of the kind of complex structural issues that are driving damp and mould in people's homes, because they're not necessarily for a housing officer to come in and be able to make an assessment, it's a much more technical specialist understanding you need, but if we've got that deeper knowledge, then we'll work more closely with tenants to address that and we'll move hopefully far past the discussion of if there's been a lifestyle issue, because it's far from it. Thanks for that. Move on to the next question. Are tenants significantly aware of their rights in terms of the quality of housing they're entitled to and how to enforce their rights and how can landlords work with the tenants to promote their rights and ensure complaints, systems they're clear and easy to use, and I'll go to the Omsman, Rosemary, if you're okay with that. I think probably for people who tenants of RSLs tend to be aware in our experience of how to ask for repairs, maintenance, how to escalate things, and I think that probably reflects the relationship that tenants have because of things like the housing charter. Also RSLs are required to report on complaint numbers. We've seen ourselves press coverage that there's a sharp rise in complaints about mold and damp. I think I agree that it's not necessarily an indicator that the problem is getting bigger, but it's maybe people are more aware. Whether making complaints means you're aware of your rights, I think, is debatable because there's a point you raised earlier that however accessible a complaint route is, people don't necessarily, if they're in a vulnerable position, use that because they might feel disempowered. They don't want to be seen as a troublemaker. Their housing is important to them and they don't want to put a tenancy under threat or they've got limited time and resources, holding down several jobs or other caring responsibilities. There is sometimes an element, well, I went before and it didn't get fixed, so there's no point, but I do think that the understanding of rights is probably more related to the confidence that you have as a tenant and it's the point that you are making Callum about this joint skillset and working together. I do recall the Scottish Human Rights Commission worked closely with tenants in Leith. Now, this was some time ago, it was I think 2015 to 2019, and they saw an increased confidence in people raising issues and I think that's probably the question, not do you know you can do it, but do you have the confidence to do that and is their support to do that? Outside the RSL sector, I don't really have any data or views on that, sorry. So we, ahead of the session, we spoke to a number of our members and 10 members to try and get a kind of sense around what tenants' priorities are and I suppose I'd bracket them in the four pockets really. So the first one was around clear and accessible information exactly as you said, so actually clarity on what their rights are and how they can enforce them, what the kind of steps they have. Ensuring a third-party assurance, so the use of contractors, others who aren't necessarily don't have a vested interest in maybe a landlord or a tenant or somebody who can speak with authority around some of the causes and the solutions to the problem. Regular inspections that are home actually ensure that they aren't being addressed, people are coming forward with complaints, but actually it's part of proactive assessment process and ultimately most important one is an adequate response. You know also I think tenants are reasonable, pit tenants recognise sometimes the scaly problems, we can, they aren't going to be addressed necessarily quickly but what they want is responded to quickly and then to work in partnership with them to address that in the most reasonable time space. That's more broadly, there are the four things that I think tenants should stress, that was from social housing tenants rather than private rent tenants but I'd imagine the same way it's equal applicable. Thank you. The point I would make is that empowering tenants to hold their landlord's account is something that's very much at the heart of what we do as a regulator, our statutory objective is to protect the interest of tenants and we would certainly emphasise to landlords that it's really important that they listen to their tenants and take any complaints seriously. So while we don't have a role as an organisation to deal with individual complaints, we have worked closely with the SPSO to make sure that landlords make information available to their tenants about how to raise complaints when things do go wrong, which on occasion they do, and that the landlords learn from how they deal with those complaints. Tenants can also come to us with what is called significant performance failures, so where there's a significant number of tenants have identified a feeling in the part of their landlord and their landlord is not responding to that, they can approach us and that's something that we would look at in terms of a potential systemic failure within that landlord. In terms of the numbers of applications that we get for SPSOs, SPSOs, sorry, they are fairly small numbers, but we take all of these seriously and consider each of them in their own merits. I want to add a little bit. In terms of damp and mould issues, we've specifically started monitoring since last December in relation to damp and mould issues that come through to the regulator and in most of those instances they've been in relation to individual complaints that have come through, so we have signposted individuals to SPSOs or through their landlord, so previous to that we didn't monitor that, it was all part of the repairs element, so we're also keeping an eye on how that is being monitored now too. Thank you for that. Thank you, Mary. Now come to questions from Annie Wells. Thank you. We've been our good morning panel. This is really a specific question for Rosemary. We've spoken about complaints in the earlier part of this session, but what I was wondering is, can you give us an overview of the scale of complaints that you get about the social landlord services specifically relating to dampness and mould in the housing and what are the key problems and outcomes in any complaints that you have considered? On top of that, given that we've heard about the increased focus on dampness and mould, are you expecting to see an increase in the number of complaints? And what do you expect social landlords to be doing just now to address this situation? Right. In terms of the scale last year, we had 618 complaints about housing, so that's registered to social landlords and local authorities. Now about 40% of those, 245, were logged as repairs or maintenance, and at that point, mould and damp would have been embedded within that. So we did introduce this identifier, so we started logging. We also did a search, just a free text search, to look back over the cases. We identified last year seven, two were logged, seven came up in a search, and that's probably a slight under estimate. This year, we currently have five that are open cases that we're looking at. We've already logged for where we've given advice and referred it back to the landlord to make a complaint. So what we are not seeing and identifying is huge numbers, but I think they are likely to rise because awareness is rising. Now in terms of what I would expect the RSLs to be doing is being aware of what the issues are so that complaints don't arise in the first place, that's the ultimate aims, as my colleagues have said, but also if they do have a complaint, because it goes to them in the first instance, to fix it quickly and not to put somebody all the way through a complaints process to try and resolve it and fix it. Now, we have some examples of particular cases where when it's come to us, we've resolved it, they've fixed it, but ideally it shouldn't have come to us. So some examples of particular cases, so a poor state of repair over several years, broken heating, damp mould, complainers were decanted to another property and then they had heating issues in their new property. So there is something about where you move people to and what checks you do before tenants even go into a property. Now, at the point at which it was known about, they did act quickly and they sent engineers out, they fixed it in good time, replaced the boiler. So we've also come across examples where work that was urgently needed and there was a young child in the house didn't get done as quickly as it should in the first instance. Now, I think they're getting better at responding quickly, but underlying some of that complaint was also the communication letting the tenant know what was happening when, when things would be fixed by. So communication I think is just as important as the issue, but I'd also be expecting associations to learn from their complaints, not just monitoring the issue but monitoring how they respond and what they learn from complaints to see if there were things that could have been done in a more preventative way that might apply to others. The one other observation I would make is there is, we have observed a tendency where there is an underlying issue to bring in experts and to actually bring in consultants to try and identify the problem, but ideally they should be identifying it before it becomes a problem. Thank you very much for that and I've got a question probably for Helen to start off with. You mentioned you wrote to all social landlords last year about considering the systems that have been placed to ensure that the homes are not affected by molten damp and I was just wondering what is your view on whether the landlords have these systems in place now or how and how you'd be checking that landlords are doing this? We've, well I suppose there's probably two things that I would highlight. We asked and we wrote to landlords before Christmas and asked them to tell us if there was any problems. A small number of landlords have contacted us and told us that they could be, they could do more and they are looking at the systems and processes that they are putting in place so we've been engaging with those landlords to get that assurance and certainly from the information that we've had and the engagement that we've had with those landlords we've been encouraged. I think as Callum said at the beginning that the focus on issues around a bit damp and molten has certainly made landlords think quite carefully about the systems and processes that they had in place and how they're reporting on that so I think we've certainly got a sense that the landlords are taking it seriously. They might not all be quite there yet because sometimes introducing new systems and processes take a bit of time to work through but they're certainly encouraged by the direction of travel. Excellent thank you very much for that yes. I just wanted to add I think the events at Rochdale were probably unfortunately a wake-up call because what they changed I think was awareness of the risk and a more risk-based approach to tenants' needs not just individual people's needs as well I think is what this is probably leading to so it changed the perspective rather than changing or adding to an existing problem. Yeah no thanks very much for that and this is a question hopefully for Callum and Helen initially but along with Elacio and SFHA you produced a briefing note for social landlords on dampness how will you be ensuring that good practice is this and good practice is this briefing has been implemented so is it being implemented on a wider basis and is there any follow-up work planned? Yes there is actually we're almost done so that briefing was concluded I think published in early February for practitioners for social landlords and since then we've actually continued to do a lot of work we do master classes and events. We're invited to social landlords and all housing practitioners to attend round tables on damp and mould we've got a subsequent briefing that's aimed at governing board members so particularly looking at the governance of both local authority level and in housing associations about how they can address their concerns around assurance and that's kind of challenging questions around stock quality and the kind of what landlords will do and this will continue I think is our job as national representative organisations in the housing sector whether CIHS, SFHA, Elacio or others to continue to kind of challenge and provide advice and support and supports a big part of it as well and signpost people to the right training understand where good practice is going on how we disseminate that the the good practice guide that you talk about has a number of kind of instances of good practice in there draw out the drawn one particularly from Easton Bartshire where they use a kind of independent contractor that I think speaks my earlier point around giving that kind of confidence to landlord and tenant around actually what the the root cause of the problem is and addressing it so I think for the housing sector we recognize our responsibility to provide that kind of good practice and support and we will continue to do so perfect I don't think anything to to add him probably just a couple of things and in terms of some of the work we do with landlords we require all social landlords to give us each year an annual assurance statement and that sets out confirms that the landlords are complying with our regulatory standards and requirements as part of that we would expect landlords to be satisfying themselves that they meet all of their tenant and resident safety obligations including handling instances around mold and damp so we would be expecting landlords to tell us through the annual assurance statement if they weren't complying with that and what we have also started to restarted doing this year is a programme of what we call annual assurance visits where we go out and speak to a small number of landlords about the process that they've went through to to complete their annual assurance statement visits and their annual assurance statements and we've just started that programme of visits for 11 landlords this year that we're going out to speak to and one of the things that we're looking at as part of that process is how they've satisfied themselves around tenant and resident safety and we will publish our findings and lessons learned from that once we've concluded those visits and that will help landlords to think about how they complete their next annual assurance statements that they produced at the end of October and we will also as I say get the next round of the charter returns which will include SHQs compliance at the end of May perfect thank you thank you thank you convener thanks very much Annie I'm now moving to questions from Willie Coffey thank you very much convener and good morning everyone it's pretty appalling isn't it that we've had two eight for the inevitable tragedy to occur two we can never be up to this issue isn't it I've been a local councillor for oh since 1992 and I'm a member of the parliament now since 2007 and I would say that one of the most frequently occurring complaints I've had as an elected member has a bit dampness and mould in tenants houses it's greatly improved I'll say that right now it's greatly improved who you're I'm from but it's still there and I suppose the question I want to ask you do you think that it's now time that the statutory definition of what tolerable standard is should now include mould and condensation as a recognised hazard and I would appreciate your views on that direct question let me start with Rosemary please I don't think I have the technical answer to it but I forgive the human answer I wouldn't want to live in that so why would anybody else and I think this comes back to there needs to be a double understanding one is structural it's about property it's about root causes but the other is about people and what they have a right to life and good housing and if it is a major problem then putting it as a standard would be one way of addressing it because it's a way of holding people accountable yeah Ellen what would your views be and including it in the statutory definition yeah I mean as rosemary says it's it's hard to to look at some of the the pictures that and think that that's acceptable that people live in those those conditions I suppose the question is is about for us as a regulator our focus is on making sure that landlords have good information about the quality of their stock I suppose irrespective of whether there's a specific reference to mold and dampen the tolerable standard and that they are taken they've got appropriate investment plans in place maintenance plans they're keeping their properties in good condition so I think for us that would be the important part I suppose the question is if that brings an extra lever to focus that but I think certainly in terms of our approach to quality of stock you know we are very much focused on making sure that the properties are warm safe and dry and are in a reasonable condition for people to live in see just in your answer to an earlier question Helen you reminded us that 75 percent of homes meet the housing quality standard and that sounds great but it doesn't include this issue but condensation and mold are not included there so if they were included that percentage of houses that meet the standard would drop considerably wouldn't it well I mean I think that the housing quality standard talks about properties being free from serious disrepair and being warm safe and dry and I suppose that's my point if there's an issue there's a serious problem with condensation and mold and dampness and these problems arise for a complex set of reasons and issues it would be hard to see how landlords could report that those properties were meeting the housing quality standard would be my view on that thank you Callum should it be part of the formal definition now that mold and condensation should be in there as a key hazard I think there's a real case for it isn't I think the evidence the committee's heard of last few weeks can suggest that I think that my one concern is that we spend a lot of time looking at standards and definitions but we're actually then getting to the cause so I think there's at that point how does that help tenants today tomorrow even over the next few years to spend time what we need I think on any issues if we need kind of we talked earlier about tenants right so what are the right mechanisms for enforcement so how can tenants then to actually take remedy and force that do landlords have the funds then to address the kind of the the failings in the property and if they are not habitable of that standard are we then able to then build new homes and replace stock outside the existing targets they already have on building new homes and do we have said earlier do we have enough skills and knowledge in the sector so I'm absolutely I think that it's it's I think it's encouraging I think everybody wants to hire standards in the housing sector respects of the tenure and that's an aspiration that every everyone you hear excuse me it will share but I do think it has to be just be matched by the right levels of kind of enforcement mechanisms the right the right amount of money so that we can deliver on that and the right skills and knowledge so that practitioners can continue to meet the kind of needs tends have but in principle absolutely. I mean don't worry I'm going to ask the housing minister next when he joins us in the next session when he asks the same question but I wonder if I could just put to you another point that we've heard recently that the UK Government's thinking about proposing its own amendments to its own housing bill to require social landlords to both investigate and fix dump and mould in their properties and apply time limits to that is that a potential direction of travel for Scotland to to look at mean I'm going to ask the housing minister again when he comes in but what do you think yourself Callum? So I get it so back to my earlier answers I think there's an absolute timeliness in responding to a tenant would provide clarity I think that's one of the kind of a complaint that tenants will have about not feeling they responded to in a timely manner I think the complexity and issue would find it difficult to give a time frame for addressing it so until you've actually went and looked at the cause of it it's difficult to assess how long a kind of remedy may take it could take weeks it could take months so I think I think that aspect to me is difficult I think there's a there's more of a compelling case around a kind of timely response and actually ensuring that there's an engagement between the landlord and tenant but a satisfactory remedy I think would be difficult to put a kind of absolute time frame on that I think so long as the the tenant feels there's a satisfactory relationship there between themselves and landlords being addressed that's more of an outcome I think it's important to focus on. Do you think Callum that landlords should be permitted to let a house that have got clear signs of mould and condensation? I mean I don't think that'd be appropriate I think when I think back to Rosemary's point earlier as any individual any household actually we we wouldn't we wouldn't be seeking to kind of take on a kind of property we're kind of with serious kind of structural deficiencies or serious failings and I'd hope particularly I'd hope landlords aren't doing that at scale so the social landlords aren't looking at houses at turnover time at void time and then looking to kind of let them out again that's that's entirely inappropriate. I was going to make that very point about not moving people into a property that has an issue in the first place and not specifically about housing and timescales but a general observation about putting timescales on the face of statute once they're on the face of statute they become a lot more difficult to change and if they are too long or too short you are stuck with them for a while and an alternative approach might be to refer to timescales that's in secondary legislation or statutory guidelines so that they can be changed if needed. One of the issues I think with having a fixed time point is that it sort of is allowing you that amount of time whereas what we want to encourage is the behaviour of fixing it straight away because the housing stock is important and there isn't enough housing and we don't want it to be stuck in this limbo of not being fixed or oh it's all right I've got a few more weeks to do that all months so that's just a general observation. What would you say on the UK potential UK government approach to this and setting timescales? I would say that at the moment the social housing charter indicators do provide fairly strong indicators around about how quickly landlords deal with emergency repairs or getting repairs right first time and I think there's you know so there's already probably a bit of a mechanism there in a focus I think it's about understanding how landlords are treating specific concerns around a bit mold and damp and getting to the root cause of the problem and fixing it appropriately so one of the things that we will be consulting on as part of our framework review though is what we're keen to hear from the tenants and landlords about what a measure would look like about how quickly landlords should be dealing with them. I think we would be keen to get tenants and the landlords views about what the appropriate mechanisms would be for doing that and can I just pick up on your question about whether it is reasonable for landlords to let properties that have good problems with mold and damp and I would say probably no that's not the case and again I would point to the the charter which already sets out that landlords should be you know when they're allocating properties their home should be I think it says clean tidy and in a good state of repair meet SHQS and any other building quality standards in place so I think I you know I would hope that that's not happening and if it was happening then absolutely tenants need to be able to to have a mechanism for recent concerns about that but the absence of mold in that criteria allows them to allocate the house legally with mold in it I'm absolutely clear on that and I believe that that's the case do you think that needs to change to turn this around if that's happening then then I would argue that I would agree that that would probably need to change just just a final last point on it our colleagues from living rent who came the other week couple of weeks ago suggested a possible compensation element could be attached to this if the problem is not resolved and whatever timescale we think is appropriate is that something that you might see as being workable or supported I think that the risk of such a mechanism is that it's taking from tenants so ultimately who's paying for that it's the landlord and the landlord's income comes from tenants so I understand the kind of the principle behind that and that people should be compensated and the mechanism actually giving that compensation is difficult and I think that what we said earlier actually we've got challenges across the housing sector we've got improvements and supply challenges and affordability concerns and I I think establishing that principle would ensure that almost tenants are paying for repairs elsewhere I understand it's trying to create an incentive for landlords to respond more speedily but I'm probably a little bit uncomfortable with that Rose-Marie any view on that compensation element of it and as part of that process I think I probably echo what Kang has said but I would differentiate between compensation and reimbursement because reimbursement for the impact of something you know all your clothes go moldy your bedding goes moldy that is different I think to compensation and so the two probably need to be considered separately not much more to add to what other big helmet was made already said okay thanks very much for those contributions thanks canvina thank you thanks very much willy now we're going to move to questions from myles briggs thank you convener good morning thank you for joining us this morning at our previous evidence session citizens advice Scotland told the committee that some of their social housing clients have been told that there's not enough funding to resolve their problem and that they would have to wait until the next funding cycle to see whether it could be resolved in your experience is this a common occurrence and should in your view social landlords receive additional Scottish Government funding to help address these dampness problems I don't know who wants to start first Callum to you thanks so I'm not aware of the prevalence of this state of absolute health and defert is citizens advice Scotland on that but I think the broader point around a funding challenge is absolutely true I think the challenge that landlords are facing right now we've got essentially three competing priorities around affordability around new supply and around investment in new stock and really really challenging targets I think what we're finding right now is the sectors having to choose two out of three and occur and I think the priority has to be existing tenants and it has to be so that means keeping rents as affordable as possible and investing in new stock which I think will put at risk if the government's plans for and priorities around new supply I think that's inevitable I think we have to be realistic however I think if we're focused on improving stock further and we're going to identify new problems as we are for this inquiry in the discussion dampen mode and I think that absolutely could be the need for further investment so we can meet the ambition that we have for improving the stock in Scotland I say that not because I want to draw back on new supply programmes I don't I think it's an incredibly important but I do think there is a balance that landlords are facing and I don't think it's feasible for them to to move at the pace which is perhaps anticipated around affordability, new supply and retrofit thanks pick up just to see in terms of the the data that we collect from from rsl specifically and that doesn't cover local authorities we know that in 2021-22 rsl spent 680 million pounds on all their repairs and maintenance and that was a 44 increase on the previous 12 months probably not unexpected when you think about the impact of the the pandemic and the the restrictions that were were in place but I think what that does shows is a significant investment on the part of rsls in repairing and maintaining their stock having said that you know that there are a number of pressures on landlords and as Callum has talked about the pressures on building new homes as well as investing in their existing stock is a really particular challenge and certainly one in terms of the engagement that we have with landlords keen to understand how landlords are managing their business and ultimately managing their business in a way that allows them to maintain rents at a affordable level because I think that is very much at the heart of what tenants are trying to do yeah that's helpful in terms of that data um are you drilling down into that further to find out you know that specific point which was put to us whether or not that's you know it's not something I imagine is then recorded when people are told we don't have the resource for that and so it's a waiting time issue for any repairs um is it difficult one obviously this is someone's citizens advice Scotland have said to us I just wondered in terms of whether or not that's more common or if it's an issue in certain parts of the country um who for councils for example who maybe have funding challenges and whether or not you've captured anything it's very specific to local some local councils being in this situation we don't collect we don't get the data from councils on their their financial investment plans it's it's specifically around about rsls that we have information on we have certainly seen landlords looking at their their business plans and looking at how they cast their planned investment and maintenance programmes and you know that attached on some of the the challenges in terms of what landlords are looking to deliver in terms of new homes and investing in their existing homes there's also the broader economic climate um the pressure that the landlords are are under there they're seeing their their costs increasing um significantly and we're certainly hearing anecdotally um of significantly above inflation um increases in some particular building costs material costs um and pressures around labour so um we're actively working with all rsls to encourage them to look at their business plans and look at how they manage that but sometimes what we have seen is that to allow them to manage their business plans they are pushing out or having to push out their planned investment in maintenance programmes thank you and specifically in relation to private rented housing um this may be for yourself Calum um do you have any views about how effective the repairing standard is and the tribunal for enforcing that um as a way of ensuring that quality private rented housing is also free of um dampness and mould as well or any data around that in scotland as well i think that we nothing from the institute ourselves we certainly know there was a kind of report um rent better those published a number of years ago looked at the experience of tenants going through the tribunal system and found it to be wanting found it didn't necessarily um address the issues and actually tended to undermine that relationship between the kind of landlord and the tenant himself so the the pace in which he's going through the tribunal some of the satisfaction outcomes and the ultimately the relationship with the landlord could break down i think given the the lack of rented supply and certainly pockets of the country as well i think ultimately the tears a lot of tenants from taking forward issues i think tenants sort of feel lucky to have a property which means they don't want to create tension so i think there is there's absolutely something about how we can create a kind of process for responsiveness in the private renting sector um that allows landlords to um will allow tenants to raise issues but also allows landlords to address them i think the reality is that private landlords are different they don't have the the capital and the scale of social landlords when they're looking to address some of the kind of the challenges in their stock it's a it's very very different and can be difficult so it's about how do we find the mechanisms and the money to allow private landlords because ultimately we're looking about improving the housing condition for that tenant you know so is there a need for kind of grant funding to help support some element of repairs in the private renting sector which will ultimately to better housing outcomes for the tenant which i think ultimately is the priority for everyone yeah and just on that point again do you think there's i look at this as an Edinburgh MSP and see kind of the problems with the housing market at the minute here in the capital do you think Edinburgh's got a very specific problem with regards to quality of housing stock i undertook a FOI myself into dampness surveys um and the council responded saying from 2019 um they had 122 undertaken last year it was 1215 so there's i think issues specifically in Edinburgh which are building up and just wondered if you had anything from your experience you would say is it Edinburgh showing a sign of really going the wrong direction in this as well i certainly don't know from our evidence or information we can see there's anything unique about Edinburgh compared to in the other parts of the country i think back to the earlier questions around can the prevalence is yours we don't i don't have kind of geographical specific information i do you think the the greater attention there's been on damping mode is undoubtedly bringing more people forward and that's that's positive i think and the more that we understand that the prevalence of it the more we get responses the the sector will respond more thoughtfully specifically we have been engaging with Edinburgh particularly in relation to damp and mold within their properties in july last year we contacted edwara following media reports of damp and mold within their properties in particular in two areas within edwara specifically around murehouse and morden so we have been having regular engagement with edwara on a monthly basis around damp and mold to establish the scale of the problem with them they have got an improvement plan in place and we are monitoring that on a regular basis they are making improvements and they are putting in and recruiting additional resources to try and deal with some of the issues there so they've also told us that they're looking to invest in retrofit and energy efficiency improvements within those two particular areas so our engagement plan was updated to reflect that engagement and we'll seek to to review that on a regular basis with them thank you very much thanks thanks miles i'm just going to stick with that area of conversation for a bit more so hella and i think at the beginning you noted that 75 percent of stock met the scottish housing quality standard we understand though that some landlord stock will be consistently below average and are we interested to hear what action you would take around that as each year we carry out what we call our annual risk assessment and one of the key pieces of intelligence that we look at is landlord's compliance with the housing quality standard so where an organisation was showing significant levels of failure in terms of shqs compliance we would engage with those individual landlords we would publish, Nicola referred to the engagement plan for Edinburgh council but we would publish engagement plans for those landlords setting out the areas of risk that we had identified the failures and the assurances that we will be looking for from those organisations and we would work with them to make sure that they were able to deliver their improvements and their compliance levels we've seen a particular issue with compliance around the EICR requirements and the linked smoke and heat detectors they were new requirements that were introduced a couple of years ago for landlords and we've seen some landlords have difficulties in meeting their compliance levels with that but we've engaged with those landlords and seeking assurance about the plans that they've got in place to deliver that I think this year when we publish the outcomes from our annual risk assessment there are I think nine organisations that we're dealing with, areas that we're dealing with in terms of tenant and safety issues and five where we're seeking further assurance around stroke quality as well okay thanks for that now going to move on to questions from Ivan McKee thank you continue and I destroy the committee's attention to my register of interests for regard to rental properties I've got a few questions to cover off the first one was round about the cost of living situation and how that's impacting and this has already been mentioned I think Roseburn a can I mention the earlier on but clearly if tenants are expected to deal with some of those dampness and mould problems with regard to using heating more etc etc are you seeing the cost of living crisis having a direct impact on those challenges who wants to go first Helen I suppose that the simple answer is yes the cost of living crisis is absolutely having an impact and particularly the feedback that we get is that issues around the energy costs are particularly challenging and that obviously if people are struggling to pay their energy bills will increase the risk of them not turning on their heating and compounding problems around moulding and damp we had specifically done a piece of work with what we call our national panel of tenants and service users and that's a panel of just under 500 tenants and other service users we worked with them to do some research each year to ask a range of questions we published the most recent research on that in August last year and I think that highlighted then the extent of the financial difficulties that tenants were experiencing so I think a quarter of the people that responded said that they weren't currently managing well financially six out of ten said their financial circumstances were worse than they had been before the pandemic and seven out of ten were concerned about the future affordability of their rent and half experienced difficulty heating their homes what we have done is this year done we re-looked at those questions again and we also added some specific questions around about home safety including moulding and damp and linked to that issues we asked some questions about tenants' experience of heating their homes we literally have just received the first report the first draft of those findings and we intend to finalise and publish the report over the summer we can share that report with you but I from the very preliminary look at that I think the kind of findings that we've seen last year are only getting worse this year we don't have the same sort of data but certainly through applications for review of Scottish welfare fund what we are seeing is themes and the theme related to cost of living it's not just damp and mould it's financial resilience where where there is a one-off event like there is a leak in the property or you burst pipe or something is the resilience to be able to cope with that where people might have at one point the cost of living pressures now mean there is there is no way to react and put something right if it does go wrong in that way the other area that we've also picked up through some of that work is things like redecorating you the funding for this appears to be quite low so if there was a one-off event you don't have the financial resilience sometimes tenants have to live with the impact of this for quite a long time and I would say that's where the cost of living is probably having a significant impact okay thank you okay thank you second point I was going to ask was about the potential for a new common housing standard and your views on whether that could help to improve the quality of rental houses in relation to dampness and mould so I think irrespective of the tenure that anyone lives in whether it's private rent aid social rent aid or owner occupier I think there's a there's a case for a common housing standard I think that we have a certain expectation of the way kind of housing the quality should be and I think that's that's quite aspirational but I think that's something that we should look to developing I don't think that in the short term we will address some of the issues that we have here which I've mentioned already in my evidence I think we need to look at actually the kind of the skills that are in the sector if we're looking at a common housing standard we need to be honest about the kind of enforcement mechanisms and that may be a role for the new private rent aid sector regulator when that's that's developed but it is about it's about the funding to address what we are seeing is kind of deficiencies in the standard and having knowledge amongst the kind of the practitioners to address it and the tenants to be aware of their rights I think that's fundamental so really I think that is a really exciting debate looking at a common housing quality standard or something that's ambitious I would say no matter what it would be the floor of it would have to be the Scottish housing quality standard we cannot go below the highest level we've got that wouldn't make any sense so we'd have to have to start there but we know that would take a serious amount of investment I think that's a good debate to have but we have to be honest about how we're going to deliver on that okay anyone else okay the only thing I would say is that from our perspective you know our current our role is in relation to social housing and any changes to the quality standard I think we we would as a minimum expect it to reflect the the current housing quality standard okay that's fine thanks let's say I was going to question as question on was round about retrofit net zero retrofit and that the programmes are getting rolled out there and whether you think there's clarity on the technical standards and on how ensure contractors are up to scratch to be able to deliver that without negatively impacting on darkness and mould challenges taking in my current of course need for ventilation versus insulation and so on and so forth but you know any thoughts on that area I mean I can go first and try and answer I think my first answer is that there's a massive there's an awful lot there to unpack in terms of the the question I think in terms of social landlords and the work that they are doing to meet the zero carbon agenda I think it's probably fair to see that it's at very early stages in terms of the financial information that we get from landlords we are certainly encouraging landlords to start to consider how to factor in the funding to deliver that but I think there are still some significant questions around about how they achieve that and the Scottish Government was obviously taking forward work to review the energy efficiency standard and understand that that work has been progressed so but there's still there's not quite that clarity around what landlords are actually being asked to deliver at this point so it's quite difficult for landlords to have firm plans in place at this point in time and I think there's a lot of learning to be done in terms of some of the the technical solutions that are being considered and to understand what that means and what that means in terms of the tenant experience some of the things that we've heard back from from landlords who have tested some of the stuff which is perhaps seen as more innovative is that there's a journey for tenants and landlords about how you live in those properties moving forward in a way that suits the needs of tenants and is affordable for tenants I think there's some real challenges there. I agree with everything Helen has said but you know this is an incredibly emerging and new sector for everyone involved for tenants for landlords for the technical sector itself and I think we need to have a little bit of humility in understanding the different solutions for different types of housing in different geographical areas depending on the conditions and we don't have that knowledge yet and I don't think it's taking us at pace where we can understand what are the right heating solutions for that household in that locality that helps address their heating needs in an affordable way that addresses net zero. It's very complicated I don't think anyone has the answers to that we just have to approach this slowly but recognising the climate emergency at a pace we can afford but it's just we will learn lessons as we're applying different heat technologies to different archetypes of house hopefully learn lessons that can then roll that scale but we have to be humble enough to recognise that it's not like a gas central heating system it's not one size fit all. Okay thank you and last point I was going to ask about was in relation to the strategic role of councils with with regard to being proactive about the stock in their area private obviously as well as social and the resourcing that have in place to be able to address those challenges I don't know if there's any any comments on that I think maybe Calameth get any comments on that. We've talked already around the money available on the sector and I think we can make the point that's well recognised that there's not a lot of enforcement around the private revenue sector that comes from local authorities just because of the revenue consideration and I think that just that creates a real challenge for trying to enforce standards in the private revenue sector I think the social sector is different the role the regulator absolutely provides that kind of oversight and that support actually for the sector to improve standards but I think the budgetary concerns I think when we previously went to John Kerr spoke about this before I think ultimately because you've got the kind of general fund that will come from general taxpayers to focus on the private housing sector I think that makes it's hard choices for local authorities about where will they invest in enforcement in the housing sector, private housing sector or invest in social care or something else that's a hard choice. I'm just staying with that enforcement piece Calam I'm just I'm kind of interested if there was the funding if there was the resource available to do enforcement what would it look like what would we be seeing happening? I think back to maybe some of the principles we've talked about earlier would be working with landlords and working with letting agencies with kind of around visits and responding helping direct tenants to kind of the tribunal system. I think there's a lot more about actually the principles should be trying to work with landlords and letting agents to address that problem and actually having that capacity in the private in a housing team who can draw on perhaps somebody kind of better guidance that exists across the social sector to find some of the remedies I think would be incredibly effective and again this may be a role for the future private rent sector regulator. The other thing that you brought up was skills and workforce and I think that came up last week as well of two weeks ago as well and I think what do we need to be doing in that area? Do we have people that have the sufficient expertise to be really handling the damp and mould issues? I think it's patchy I don't think it's not comprehensive I think that's why landlords sometimes will use contractors because they don't have that in-house expertise. I don't think it is that it's comprehensive across the entire sector and certainly not the private rent sector as well. We need to make that more available, we need to make that more accessible, we need to make it more affordable for associations and local authorities and others to draw on that insight and then ensures part of their continuous improvement in training development programmes for their own staff that we're having investment in training for not just the customer service facing side but actually that technical expertise. I think there's a huge amount more we could do about ensuring that there's ongoing development and knowledge in that area. It's the same for many aspects of housing. We can't damp and mould, we can't just look in isolation and talk about technical retrofit of homes, look at any other issues but I absolutely think landlords that are demonstrably investing in the skills and training of their staff, investing in customer service are less likely to be dealing with problems later down the line. Do you think that in Scotland we've got the resource and the innovation around looking at things, I mean is there innovation that could be happening here? Do landlords have a place to go where they could get a greater understanding of what they could be doing? I think there's a number of places that my own organisation will provide that kind of support and training qualifications through the SFHA, a lateral, the regulator will undoubtedly signpost people to the right training as well. I think that that ecosystem does exist but back to perhaps that point I made earlier around what tenants looking for, all the right information in one place or something around that for landlords as well. Where can we go to access training? Where can we go to provide the access funding to pay for training? Where can we go to provide greater advice? Providing, you know as part of the briefing paper that we worked with the regulator a lateral and SFHA was trying to pull a lot of that together in one place for the social housing sector to give them that support. There's undoubtedly more we can and should be looking to add to that over time but that was, I think, from our perspective, a start. Great, thanks for that. Does anyone, that was a spontaneous question because of Callum saying some things early on but if anyone wants to come in on any of that, you're welcome to, you don't have to though. Great, well thank you so much. I think it's been really helpful to hear from all of you today with your evidence and your expertise and what's your perspective on the issue. I now suspend briefly to allow a change of witnesses. We're now joined by our second panel with Paul McClellan who's the Minister for Housing from the Scottish Government and Mr McClellan is joined today by Scottish Government officials, Naeem Batty, who's the head of fuel poverty and housing standards unit and Darren Knox, who is the fuel poverty and housing conditions analysis team. I welcome the witnesses to the meeting and I now invite Mr McClellan to make an opening statement. Thank you, convener, and it's good to be back. It's weird to sit at this side of the table this time I've been a member of the committee. Good morning and thank you for inviting me to speak about this important topic.  I watched most of the session this morning. The tragic death of Ewa Bishack in Rotschrail in 2020 has highlighted the issue of damp and mould and housing. No one should lose their life as a result of their home not being fit for purpose. It is right that we consider what further actions we can take together here in Scotland to ensure that this never happens again. The quality of housing has improved over a number of years due to the action of this Government. The Scottish Housing Condition Survey shows that it disappears to critical elements for the home reduced by 9 per cent between 2012 and 2019. It also found out that over 90 per cent of homes have no damp or condensation. The introduction of the Scottish housing quality standard and social housing in 2012 and strengthening of repairing standards for the private rental sector shows our commitment to making improvements. However, we recognise that there is much to do to make sure that we continue to eradicate the remaining poor quality housing in Scotland. I know that we will be talking about the scale of these issues later. We heard witnesses at the committee on 2 May talk about the impact of living with damp and mould, that it can inevitably affect all parts of people's lives, including physical and mental health, social connections, employment and education. We must keep this in mind as we move forward. The Scottish Government takes the safety of tenants very seriously and is committed to tackling disappearing housing and ensuring that good maintenance is given a high priority. Everyone should have a warm, safe and affordable home. Access to good quality housing is the focus of our housing 20 to 40 strategy and is a vital part of our drive to secure economic growth, promote social justice, strengthen communities and tackle inequality. I was therefore delighted to hear from national land robin representatives at the previous session talking about how seriously they take the issue of damp and mould in housing. This has been exemplified by the excellent guidance that was produced by the social sector in February of this year, which makes clear that it is born into damp and mould, primarily or initially as a lifetime problem that is an appropriate and effective. The strategy guidance for the private sector on the updated repairing standard issue by the Scottish Government March of this year sets out private landlord's responsibilities on dealing with damp and mould. The Scottish Government will continue to work with stakeholders to strengthen the guidance that is available for landlords and to ensure that tenants are able to escalate their concerns to first-year tribunals for housing when needed. As housing minister, I am determined to ensure that we continue to make progress in improving Scotland's housing, including eradicating the serious issue of damp and mould. Thank you again for inviting me along today and I look forward to your questions. Thanks very much for that opening statement. I'd be interested to hear at a national level if the Scottish Government has a good understanding. You mentioned your statement of the scale of the problem of dampness mould in Scotland's housing. We've been hearing from the evidence in previous sessions and earlier this morning that there really isn't enough data collection. Is there any improvement in data collection that the Government could be making? I think that we have a good understanding at the moment. Obviously, the Scottish House and Condition Survey is that main element just now, and that was up to 2019. I think that we heard this morning from witnesses that the next one is due in January 2024. Obviously, Covid impacted on the last number of years in terms of getting proper surveys done and there were external surveys that were carried out. The new one is due in January 2024. I think that some of the evidence that we took this morning, for example, from CIH, and obviously with the regulator here in the SPSO, I think that there's a real collaborative approach needed in terms of this. I know that the SHR mentioned it, CIH mentioned it around about more work that they're doing to try and gather information. I think that there's an element of well that the local authorities seem to be doing that in that regard as well. One of the things that I took from my evidence session again this morning was in terms of if there's more an understanding of the reporting systems and more of an understanding about where residents need to go, tenants need to go in regard to that. We've probably seen an increase in some of the figures that came through. I think that it was mentioned this morning. It's good that now the tenants have a greater understanding of that. I think that the new survey that comes through in January 2024, which is obviously just about six or seven months away, will give us a greater understanding in terms of that. Thanks for that. Certainly events of the last year have been quite a wake-up call for everybody and it's maybe also given a sense to tenants that this is something that they can raise. Shelter Scotland told the committee that there are structural issues that are important to addressing problems of dampness. In particular, not enough new social homes are being offered and that funding needs to be available for building social homes and upgrading current homes without one impacting the other. Do you agree that the structural issue of supply is a fundamental problem that might help tackle dampness and mould? On top of that, do social landlords need any further funding support to help them deal with specific problems of dampness and mould in their homes? I think that there are a number of issues. I think that it was again C I H. I mentioned Callum from C I H, talked to her in about probably the issues that are facing social landlords at the moment. I think that he mentioned about three elements. One was obviously looking at the retrofit and agenda, one was looking at existing repairs and obviously the most important element is looking through the affordable housing supply programme. For me, I think that one of the key things I've already met Edinburgh and Glasgow in terms of applying to meet as many local authorities as I can in the next number of months is trying to understand their own individual circumstances. I think that that's important and I think that obviously the affordable housing supply programme is an important part to delivering that because obviously they have to apply to new regulation, to the standards to make sure that there is no damp or mould in terms of that. As we know, there is a struggle in terms of trying to match the issues around the construction inflation which is in about 20 per cent and obviously interest rates as well are causing an issue around that. We have to increase what we're doing around the affordable housing supply programme. There's no doubt, but it's for me trying to get a greater understanding of all the local authorities and certainly the meetings that I've had with Edinburgh and Glasgow in the last week or so have given me a greater understanding of that. I think that that's really important in that regard. I think that in terms of looking at other schemes that are available, I think that we're obviously talking around about, there are other funds available, net zero heat fund I think, is there to try and look at how local authorities can use that as well. Again, it's trying to get the understanding of local authorities exactly where they can sit in that. The affordable housing supply programme is incredibly important, but I think that there are greater understanders where each local authority can sit and how we can try and measure the impact about what they are trying to do in their own individual circumstances. Okay, thanks for that. Yes, I think that I can imagine in your new role, it's just trying to, as you say, get the understanding of what's really going on and take that nuanced approach. The committee's heard that the cost of living crisis can cause or exacerbate dampness problems as tenants can't always afford to put their heat on, and SFHA welcomed the fuel insecurity fund but suggested it could be moved on to a long-term basis to help social landlords plan. What more can the Scottish Government do to help tenants with the cost of living crisis and their energy costs? I think that that's a good point that was made by the SFHA and I think the reason, obviously, that was picked up by the First Minister who tripled the fund to £30 million, I think, trying to understand that there is an issue out there in that regard. I think that the broader was always talking about heating costs, but there's also food costs are going up as well in terms of that, so that has that broader impact. Now, we will be undertaking the evaluation of the effectiveness of the fuel insecurity fund in terms of that. I think that one of the key things as well is that I've also got responsibility for debt and welfare advice, so I've had initial meetings with agencies around about that, so it's trying to ensure in terms of capacity that they have to deal with this issue. I think that that's an incredibly important thing. I've already raised with them at that stage to make sure that the advice is coming through as well as the fuel insecurity fund that's here, but we will be taking an evaluation of the scheme later on this year. It is having an impact, a positive impact, I think, so far in terms of that, but I think it's not going to go away this year. It's going to be an issue that will continue for a number of years, so we need to support the sector in dealing with that. The fuel insecurity fund, as I said, manages to do that, and I've talked before about the net zero energy fund. Again, it's trying to understand how can we accelerate that programme, if you like, because the more houses we can get through that are net zero and obviously more energy efficient, the better the housing stock becomes in each of those areas and across Scotland. So absolutely the case, that need for acceleration to improve our housing stock. I'm not going to move to questions from Annie Wells. Thank you, convener. Good morning, minister. Some witnesses in the previous session said that it was difficult for tenants to enforce their rights to live in good quality homes free from dampness. I've also heard that it's particularly difficult for private tenants to enforce their rights and that the tribunal process is not as accessible as it could be. I was just wondering if you would agree with that minister and if so, how can the Scottish Government help to improve this situation? I think there's a number of points to be raised. Again, I think it depends on where you are in the country. I think that's an important aspect and I think that's why it's important for me to get around as many of the local authorities. I said I had a chat with Glasgow just last week. Can you raise this issue as well as Edinburgh, but it's important to go to authorities, for example, in the Highlands, who might have a completely different context in terms of where they are? I think that one of the key things that might not be known under, and I suppose it's getting a message out there, is obviously that local authorities can make that representation under third party as well. So I think that it's trying to understand about local authorities, how they interact, I suppose, with the tenants and residents around that. I think that one of the other key things that I talked about as well was in terms of the organisations that are out there that can support these and other key ones. You may know on that. I mean, I was a Councillor for 15 years and interacted with Shelter on some of these issues going back a number of times and I think they helped, they gave, as well as the CAB and I think the other organisations as well as the Scots Association at law centres, I think they were very helpful in terms of that. I think it comes back maybe to the point that Callum made from CAH, I suppose there's more of an understanding around about the issue. I think there's, I think, one of the key challenges for both Scots Government through debt welfare agencies and also local authorities is to make sure that that information is out there for tenants in terms of that. So I think that that's one of the key things. I think the housing and property chamber, I think it was brought forward as probably less adversarial in terms of where it's there. I think even to say to somebody, you know, you're going to first hear tribunal would probably put off and it did in my circuit and I suppose examples previously that did put off people in that regard. So for me it's trying to ensure that there's that support mechanism for tenants because as soon as you see a tribunal people I think automatically just back off. So it's working with the debt and welfare agencies, it's working with local authorities themselves to make sure that they're getting that message out in that regard. I think that's incredibly important because, as I said, I know people who backed off in the 15 years I had as a councillor and examples around about that. So we are trying to work at that and that's part of the reason I'm trying to ground as many local authorities as possible as trying to understand where they sit and what we can do particularly in their own regard.  So we need to understand how we support the smaller local authorities and more remote authorities as well as your big Edinburgh Glasgow's Dundee Aberdeens and so on. Thanks very much, thanks, convener. Thank you. I'm going to now move to questions from Willie Coffey. Thanks very much, convener. Good morning, minister. Good to see you in that side of the table. So you're very welcome. Paul, you and I were local councillors for many years and one of the big issues that recurved year after year was dampness and mould within various housing stocks. Can I just go straight to what I think is an important question to ask you? Do you think it's now time that the Government included mould and condensation as recognised hazards as part of the statutory definition of what a tolerable standard is? Thanks, Mr Coffey. I knew this question was coming because I watched a session this morning and you were going to ask this later on. I think it was quite important when we seen some of the feedback that Kenny came through and I suppose when you look at damp and mould, there can be some complex issues around that. I think there's guidance that's already out there in terms of that. Now, there was, I think, the briefing that I said, I think it was a reference this morning that went out in the first of March and continues that. I think it's something that merits further discussion and I think we kind of heard that this morning from the witnesses that were there. So, you know, I've got a meeting with the CIH coming up, I've got a meeting with the regulator coming up also in terms of that. So it's something, you know, I've probably discussed it at the moment. I think that the tolerable standard does, Kenny, set out in terms of what the word housing should be. You know, it should be free from damp but it should be free from mould as part of that. Now, if we need specific, I suppose, definitions, I think that that can be quite complex and I said at the moment, now you might not know if you've got anything to add in terms of that. But I think that there are satisfactory guidance out there at the moment. It's something, as I said, I know the witnesses said this morning. I suppose there were tentative, I suppose, in their answers around about that, but now you might not know if you've got anything to add in that regard. Yeah, thank you for that. I think, as the minister says, the tolerable standard, which covers all homes, includes those in the rented sector. It requires homes to be substantially free from rising or penetrating damp and have satisfactory provisions for ventilation, heating and terminal insulation. So, even though the condensation damp is not specifically mentioned, the underlying causes or what causes that are adequately covered within the total of the standard in SHGS and the updated repairing standard also requires private landlords to have consideration of that. But, as the minister says, that's something that we can consider further. I mean, really, the consequence of this at the moment is that it's entirely possible, legitimate, legal and otherwise, for a landlord to allocate a house to a family that's got mould in it, and that could happen today, it can happen tomorrow. Isn't that something that we seriously want to have a look at and either clarify and embrace that as part of what the tolerable standard should be? I heard you ask that question this morning, obviously, saying, should we let out properties in that condition, and I think, obviously, the answer should be around a bit no. I think that one of the issues that I've taken away from that is legally where do we sit in that regard, and I can come back to the committee in that, because I think that we've heard the moral aspect of that, should we let it out, no. Again, that's something that I want to take away and check out in the legality of in that regard and where we sit and the powers that we have in that regard. Again, I don't know if Naeem is anything to add in that, but it's certainly a take away I had this morning and something I can come back to the committee about in that regard, but Naeem, I don't know if there's anything you want to add in that one. Yeah, I'll just kind of pick up on the points that you just kind of made by the regulator this morning around what the social charter requires for homes, for landlords, before they kind of rip them out. They have to be clean, tidy and free from serious disrepair, so landlords should not be letting out homes which are in a serious state of disrepair or any kind of disrepair. They have to kind of fix that before they do that, but as the minister said, and I think as the regulator said as well, I mean if there are cases then you know we will need to look into that and say what more can we do to do that. I think it's working a point towards the the guidance which has been issued by SHR and others around making it clear around we need to kind of look at damp and mould for social housing practitioners guidance and make sure that and also the repairing standard guidance makes it clear that homes should be fit for human habitation and as the minister said, we will look into that further, you know what more do we need to do to make it work, but I think as the minister said and others I've rightly recognised, landlords should not be renting out homes which are not fit for human habitation. I could just move on to our colleagues down south, the UK Government is currently proposing to amend its own housing bill, Paul, that will require social landlords to investigate and fix dump and mould in their properties and they're thinking about specifying time limits to achieve that. You could ask for your comments on whether that's a potential direction of travel that we might embrace in Scotland? Social landlords have to set out repair timelines in their repairs policy at the moment, so it's either emergency or routine. Now you would think that obviously talking about dump and mould, you would think that serious cases would be classed as emergency or certainly urgent around that. Tenants in the social sector already have a right to repair scheme and it can be obviously repairs carried out in that regard. Now as part of that they can pay compensation and I've mentioned the point this morning by the SPSO talking about compensation and reimbursement and again I think that's a key difference in terms of that because obviously if there's dump and mould in a house it can impact on carpets, it can impact on wallpaper and curtains and so on so I think that's an issue that's certainly need to be picked up in that regard. Again I watched the debate this morning talking about setting timelines, I think it was talking about timely response and again I'll probably investigate that further when I have the meeting with the regulator and the CIH in terms of that because I think that it probably needs a little bit more investigation into that but I think that setting out timelines is think that it was highlighted by CIH this morning, I think it could kind of hold things back in that regard so I think a timely response but I think there needs to be further discussion around about that and I think the CIH made that point today but it certainly something I'll be discussing in that regard. I think one of the key things already is that the sector is already trying to set out its own guidance and it did so in February so I think it's trying to get ahead of the game in terms of Scotland where that kind of sits and again one of the key things I think for me when I meet the regulator and CIH over the next months and so on and the other local authorities is to try and understand about that where they're sitting and I think when the key things is building up that relationship as a housing minister in terms of that and to see where that kind of goes but I think we're kind of ahead of the game when it comes to that already and I think obviously the regulator this morning mentioned an individuous well about their reviewing their guidelines and looking at that so I'd imagine that would be part of the discussions I have with them when it comes up later on this year. Thanks very much. Lastly from me Paul, a year or four open to reviewing what the social housing charter might look like in the broader context of these discussions. I think in terms of that, I mean I thought that the charter was just reviewed in last November and I know that was kind of picked up at that particular time. I think part of that discussion at the time was the stakeholder feedback we got that was going relatively well. I think the more prevalence we see of reports and so on coming forward and I think that that's an encouraging thing because I think more people will report it, you know, they're more aware of the prevalence of dampen mould. I think that that's an ongoing process and I think the charter would obviously be reviewed on an ongoing basis. Certainly the feedback we got from the consultation previous that it was going quite well in terms of that so and again I think it comes back to, you know, as about meeting the Scottish housing quality standard and that should be in place so I think that provides kind of flexibility as well within the charter but I think the charter would be reviewed on an ongoing basis in terms of that but certainly the feedback we got from stakeholders was it was going relatively well at that time and that was just in November last year so you're probably talking six to nine months ago so it's still relatively new feedback we got on that issue but again, you know, the charter will be reviewed on a regular basis. Just because of what you mentioned there, do authorities have to record that a tenant has made a complaint about mould and dampness and condensation? Is that a formal requirement to record that because that would seem to me that if you capture that kind of information that would influence what the charter might look like as we move forward so is that a formal part of what they have to gather about the condition? A last name to come back on that one I think they do but a last name to come back on that one and obviously I mean the charter is just coming back to the point but the charter is reviewed every five years but obviously there's on-going discussions and you look at that on an ongoing basis but a last name to come back on that and the reporting issue. I think as the minister said I mean the charter kind of sets out it doesn't it sets out the overall outcomes that the landlord should be achieving it does not replace any of the legal duties the landlords have. I think as a committee head from the earlier panel this morning especially the regulator that landlords have to report their repairs to and how well they can comply and I think as a landlord and sorry as I said earlier on this morning they're looking at you know how to kind of drill down into the various bits around you know what are those elements of the repairs which have been done so I mean is a regulatory matter and I think that's what and the regulator is kind of looking at that how how else can we enhance the reporting around that. Sorry this is a hard one but it's really important to feel for people that have suffered this poll over the years so the housing condition survey says that there's 192,000 homes in Scotland with condensation and I would argue that many of them have suffered from mold but the point is we don't know because we don't collect that information so how many of those houses those 192,000 houses in Scotland that have condensation have got mold present as well and we don't know that and if I'm just asking is that not something we would like to to begin to gather as well. Yeah I mean I think obviously the housing condition survey can you look that talks about condensation it talks about mold and obviously I mean I think the key thing to mention first of all is that the prevalence of that is coming down you know I think from condensation it's from 11% in 2011 to 8% in 2019 and I think that's that's you know you're talking around about that that's quite a difference in that regard mold obviously is the same I think mold dropped from 12% to 9% in that regard so I think you know that was from 290 to 230,000 now it did mention about 95% of these cases it was found to affect less than 2% now again that's just that that's from the survey I think one of the key things we talked about this morning again was talking around about I suppose the duty of local authorities to go out and try and do that themselves again there's more authorities for them to go out and do that and I think I can't recall who said it this morning but I was trying to do 10 surveys to try and find out more around about that and I know we'll come on to how we resource that later on and probably in some of the questions but in terms of that I think one of the issues for me is obviously we're working collaboratively and I see the CIH that's working with local authorities and Scottish Government in terms of how we try and establish exactly what the cause of the problem is and how I suppose to the extent of what the problem is as well in terms of 95% or less than 2% and I'm not saying that's not an issue but we have to focus on the most urgent cases first and foremost I think it's an element doing that hopefully the updated survey I'll give us a more accurate figure because obviously I mentioned before Covid before didn't allow us to go into people's properties and condition that so 2024 which has been the result that was carried out during 2022 so once we get that hopefully that'll give us a more accurate reflection of where that kind of sits rather than going back to where we were a couple years ago when it was just external investigations that were taking place okay thank you very much for all those answers thank you convener thanks willy we now move on to questions from miles briggs thank you community good morning minister good morning to your officials it's a further question which I wanted to ask with regards to powers and you've touched upon meetings you plan to have with the Scottish housing regulator but my question is specifically do you think that they have the powers currently to deal with landlords who are letting out poor quality homes with damp and mould issues or is that something you're going to look at I think of Mr the regulator you know it sits there on its own in regards that doesn't report to myself for example and I think that's one key point I think you heard the regulator this morning talking about indicators around about damp and mould I think at the moment they do have necessary powers but again I think in terms of what they're looking to do and review that and I think it was April 24 they said they would be bringing that out so again I'd be really keen I have a meeting coming up with them relatively shortly and I would imagine I would you know I would ask for a reporter around a bit when the indicator comes out around about 2024 as well and obviously anything that they bring forward I think would be it would be worth the meeting at that stage I think one of the key things that they mentioned was about consulting stakeholders and I think that's incredibly important if it has to take another month or two for them to review that I think it's really important that they review stakeholders and notice this morning obviously you were talking about Edinburgh as well so that is including I think it's important that they speak to the stakeholders it's local authorities but it's trying to look at the mix of local authorities it's not your Edinburgh's and your Glasgow's I mentioned before in Tanya Belser and about you know it's seen in the more remote local authorities and how does that can be so I think in terms of that it's not the one size fits all again when it comes to that and I think the regulator would obviously pick pick that but you know I'd imagine I would be meeting with the regulator as soon as you know it's soon after that report is published in that particular regard but obviously that's something for the regulators to take forward but I'll certainly be meeting with them as soon as that comes forward that's helpful and I know since you were appointed to this role I've been on at you about the Edinburgh situation quite extensively and I wondered if you believe there's specific council areas or specific housing associations where damper mould is more of a prevalence and the maintenance aspect of this or just the inspection regime and I'm not sure we've really got underneath a Scotland wide figure to whether or not there's some outliers and I personally as an Edinburgh MSP think post pandemic my mailbag around this is far greater and given the property market in Edinburgh people are maybe going into houses they shouldn't be as well so I just wondered whether or not you and your officials have done any work on on where this is maybe a real problem I certainly think in terms of the last house condition survey that Nick can you come through there was figures for for each local authorities and I'll be asked I'll bring Darren in any second in terms of that Edinburgh didn't come up highly in that at the moment that's not to say it's an issue just now because I think the last survey you talked about was 2019 and I think I'd say there was trying to get in as many local authorities as possible and you and I have already met to discuss housing issues in Edinburgh it's an issue that I'm going to be meeting Edinburgh every four to six weeks to talk about the broader issues they have this will be part of the discussions that we have and I think we mentioned this morning there was discussions this morning around about the engagement through the regulator with Edinburgh so again that would be an issue I would imagine a pickup with the regulator in that regard but I'll ask Darren to bring him maybe bring in if there's anything that he wants to come through in terms of that but in terms of Edinburgh I know you and I will be meeting on a regular basis in terms that I will be discussing with Edinburgh in that regard as well so more than happy to to keep up the discussion with you in that regard including including damp and mould but also on another issues as you know but I'll ask Darren to come in if there's anything that he wants to mention in regard to that yeah I mean as the minister says we do monitor levels of damp condensation and mould through the house condition survey and we provide local authority level estimates based on a three-year average so the latest data is for 20 the period 2017-19 there's nothing in that data to suggest that Edinburgh was any higher than the national average but there were some local authorities in respect to mould that were higher than the national average East Lothian, Dundee, Aberdein, East Renfrewshire, Angus, Perthyn, Cynros and Glasgow city but yeah as the minister said I think a key thing as well is obviously this data relates to the period 2017-19 the house condition survey was impacted by the Covid pandemic and the 2020 survey was unable to be completed the 2021 survey was undertaken using a different approach to previous years which meant that surveyors weren't able to enter property so weren't able to record presence of damp mould and condensation but we have returned to the usual approach for the house condition survey in April 2022 the field works being completed and will be publishing the key findings in January 2024 and I think one of the things that I would probably acknowledge is that we maybe haven't reported sufficient detail on damp mold and condensation in the past and I think given the clear user interest that's something we'll be looking to publish more information on okay thank you thanks for that thanks for me and I'm gonna bring in Marie McNair thank you computer good morning minister and your officials and minister the committee heard that there's some good practice around preventing and tackling dampness and mold but this needs to be more widespread and shared amongst the private landlords how can the Scottish Government help to facilitate the sharing of good practice I think that's a really important point because I think we talked about one of the key things coming through in terms of the prevalence in I suppose talking about private benefit sector social benefit is against when we're occupying private benefit for example was 12% social benefit was 12% so we talked about what we're doing in the social sector I think it's really important in terms of how we engage with the private sector in terms of that as well I mean I think there was a new Scottish Government issued a new repairing standard in March this year and obviously that was shared and mentioned and gave statutory guidance for for private landlords which I think was talking about the issues of damp and amongst other things as well in terms of that regard I know that the social sector's coming to come together in terms of that I mean I have got meets coming up with with the other stakeholders in the private sector to talk about that I would encourage them to try and work towards that as well so I think one of the key things having a meeting with them is to try and establish about what support they would need from from Scottish Government in that regard because I think the social sector took the lead in that regard we've heard from private sector about what they're doing but I think it's in terms of trying to work out specifically support they would need from that and I think a lot of it comes back for me down to you know the information that Nick can go out to to residents and tenants and about that and I think that's that's one of the key things is how they try and get that information out there sometimes it can be easier for a social sector to send it out to six seven thousand eight thousand tenants they might have private sectors probably different and probably more more diverse so it's trying to meet with them and trying to understand exactly what support they would need in terms of that I think they are working on it in terms of that but I think it's trying to understand exactly what they need but I think information where we can assist them with I think is a key aspect of that. Thank you minister. Just to follow up on that one actually at the end of our previous session Callum was suggesting that we need all the right information in one place not only for tenants but also for landlords do you think that's something that the government could help with? I think that's something that I picked up this morning again coming from the last session through Callum and previous sessions in terms of that and I think that's something that the officials and I can take away and consider in terms of that because obviously we're trying to you know we talked about private sector RSLs the council housing and so on so I think there's an element about how we can try and standardise that and trying to see how much we can get that out so again that's something that I've certainly taken away from the evidence that's coming and obviously I'll speak to officials about that and come back to the committee about that. Yeah I think also there's maybe something that's coming through around accessible language as well isn't there about how do you make the we've got the information but is it really accessible to people when they do find it and I think it comes back to the point convener that you mentioned before if people in certain circumstances don't feel there's any support out there they'll tend not to look for it so we need to try and see how we can be more proactive in that support in that regard so I think that that's an incredibly important part of looking at that. Thanks very much. I'm now going to bring in Ivan McKee. Thank you convener and morning minister and panel. Two issues I was going to touch on the first was on if you can give us any update on the work to progress housing to 2040 and the commitment to introduce a new housing quality standard and is that specific? We want to cover the issue of dampness in mould and I know you've touched on some of the issues of previous answers but just on that specifically. I think there was a strategic board set up housing 2040 and I think the present DfFM chaired that in the first meeting in March. I'll now be chairing that group going forward. We don't have a date as of yet but we're certainly planning to do that before the summer recess to consider about that what's going forward so it's very much setting out the strategic objectives at the moment so I think that that's not being discussed as such but I think some of the issues obviously came through today will be something that will be discussed by the board itself. That will obviously be feeding in through stakeholders as well so there's stakeholders feeding in to that. I'd imagine that that issue would be raised in terms of that. So we're hoping to report some progress in that later on back to committee and obviously to Parliament in terms of where that's going at this stage but the next strategic meeting I think we've just had the one meeting so far so the next meeting will be in June and I think that we've probably progressed the strategic objectives of where the board will be by that time and we're housing 24 a strategy board that looks at then but we're hoping as I said to get that before the summer recess there's plans to get that in the diary before the summer recess. Okay so look forward to getting an update. Yeah and again we can report back to committee on that particular issue. And the other issue was round about retrofits and the work that's going on there and various issues in relation to tenants understanding what that looks like, how to use new heating systems that interplay between retrofit from net to zero and insulation versus maintaining ventilation to ensure buildings are up to standard with regards to combat and dampness in mould and then standards round about contractors that are doing those retrofits with regard to some issues that have been raised on this recently so I don't know if you can kind of give us an overview of how that looks in your thinking. Yeah I think there's three issues and again I mentioned what the CH talked about obviously there's looking at the repairs and you know where does investment go for that, there obviously we talked about affordable housing supply programme, where does investment go towards that and obviously we talked about the retrofit and agenda as well which I think is incredibly important. So there's two or three key things I think and my own head in that regard, one obviously we've talked about the repairs and I think it's getting a greater understanding particularly around a bit damp in mould which I think is important. The affordable housing supply programme, again it's trying to speak to as many local authorities because there might be different perspectives from each of the local authorities. Edmmering Glasgow and having a chance to speak to them was really informative for myself in terms of where their balance kenny sits and the whole housing mix if you like that was including retrofitting and again you know I'm really keen to go out and speak to the rural authorities as well, do they have a different outlook and perspective on that and how can we bring forward a affordable housing supply programme and a larger scale in terms of that, so where does that fit in for example with retrofitting. Local authorities have to produce a real ease strategy by the end of this year so that will kind of set out where each local authority needs to look in terms of what's required at looking at retrofitting and that's across private sector, republic sector and so on and RSLs and so on so that I think will be quite informative in terms of that. There's discussions that the net zero committee had in terms of what local authorities need to do to try and deliver that programme and I think the considerations and recommendations that came through obviously were for probably more the energy minister but obviously very relevant to myself in terms of what do we need to do to try and support that in that regard so that's an important fact as well and how do we finance this. Local authority and the Scottish Government is putting £1.8 billion in this parliament towards that. I met last week with officials from the four nations home nations and this was discussed so you know no country can produce or have the funds to develop and support that programme over that period of time so there's a green finance report group that reports back in I think to Mr Harvey in terms of how do we finance those discussions as well as with the private sector and about how can they move towards retrofitting agenda so it's quite a mix at the moment I think we are making progress there'll be the heating buildings strategy that's getting developed at the moment in terms of that through Mr Harvey so but I think it's trying to understand where the mix is in terms of each local authority but it is looking at repairing standards it is looking at retrofitting and it is looking at the affordable housing supply programme and within that finance packet if you like how do we get that balance right in each local authority and across scotland. Right so in that specific question I'm you're comfortable that in terms of the technology we understand that what we're doing on net zero isn't potentially exacerbating problems on damson mould and there's a process for making sure contractors are up to the right standard to be able to implement the retrofit that's not going to cause any problems with regard to damson mould. Yeah I mean I think one of the key things obviously I don't have to refer to it before was each two and looking at the standards are in the bit that as well and I think one of the key things at the moment is coming back to where the local authorities can you do them through the local you know the LHE strategy I think that's incredibly important when you're looking at now the LHE strategy looks around about if I take it each line for more local authority you know we there's a lot of rural housing so how do we make sure there's a systems in there that don't exacerbate damson mould in terms of that so what do we bring in through the LHE strategy we'll be trying to say right what's technology that's relevant for each part so and that might be the same in tenements for example in in Glasgow so I think part of that work is going on in the bit the LHE strategy which is due out by the end of the year will be around about what's the relevant technology for the relevant part of the country and I mean I suppose you're looking at climate you're talking about how rural is is it you know we're talking about obviously tenements in Glasgow so it's the LHE strategy will be in a really incredibly important part of what each local authority is doing in that regard and obviously then how that would say what technology that they use. Okay that's good thank you. Thanks Ivan I'm just going to come back to the the housing standard you've talked about the new housing standard but um so obviously we have a housing standard now and I've been interested to hear how do we currently enforce that standard and if we bring a new one in how do we ensure that that's actually being met by housing companies. I think we obviously mentioned before around the meeting that the Scottish housing quality standard obviously is there at the moment we kind of discussed on around about how that's kind of measured and I suppose there is that onus on local authorities and private landlords and obviously in RSLs to look to look at that. I think part of the discussions that come in back about the new housing standard the board has met once the housing to 2040 board has met once the housing standards you know it was it was something that was going to be brought forward by the government in that regard so there is work being progressed at that stage and again that would be something that you know we would feed back to the committee on that particular regard. I think again it's engaging me stakeholders in terms of that and I think it would be one of the issues that would certainly be raised in June meeting that we're planning to have in that regard but I think we are progressing work around about um we talked about before around this Parliament looking at a non-tenure standing standard in terms of that and there's work being progressed at that at this moment but I think in terms of taking that forward and the standards below in terms of that I think would be worth something it would come back to the committee at that particular stage so it's an early progress at the moment but I think getting the feedback from stakeholders is incredibly important and how we develop that policy taking it forward. Can you talk about um stake raising stakeholder awareness around housing standards? What will you and you're going to have a meeting? What kinds of things do you think is important to raise with them or have them become more aware of? I think there are a number of things I think we talked about this morning around about one of it was about information and what's out there I think in terms of the reporting I think was another issue that Kenny came back and one of the key things that Kenny struck me this morning was around about the collaborative approach you know from the C I H from the regulator from what government is doing so you know it's trying to make sure that we're all working together on that one and that's joining the dots in that regard I think that's really important. What does an alternative standard look like as well I think is an important part of what we need to do going forward and I think as I said coming back to the housing to 2040 board I think there's a stakeholder involvement at an early stage I think is incredibly important as we develop that I mean we talked about this morning and it comes back to Mr Coffey's point around about the what you know time yes approached it and I think like that but that would be certainly something I think that stakeholders would discuss and you know and we talked around about that in the regulator talked around about what they would be doing around about their guidelines so I think as other bodies develop their thoughts you know we'll obviously be working very closely with them in that regard thanks very much for that I think that concludes our questions and I just want to say what I'm noting is that it is really great to have a minister for housing I think we've been missing that in the committee so thank you so much because I think we're able to we're able to get a depth you know deeper into the issues that we need to address here so very much appreciate you coming and giving us your evidence I know I'm a few weeks time so another important issue it's also very good to hear that you are actually proactive getting out and talking to all local authorities and really understand that housing issues in Scotland are different in different parts of scotland to do with climate geography all countless things so yeah tremendous to have you in this role okay thanks for coming in thank you pan as we previously agreed to take item three in private I now close the public part of the meeting