Well, it's 11 o'clock, so I suppose we should start and I can introduce myself first so that we can get some track that's coming in. So my name is David King. I work for Red Hat in the desktop group, mostly doing GNOME stuff. But also a few other bits, like helping out with some debug stuff. And now I've started looking into using OS3 for the Fedora Workstation. So I'm talking to you about that. So what's the Fedora Workstation? Well, Christian actually gave a talk about what it is and what it's going to be just an hour ago. So if you missed that, you can probably find out more from him and he'll be around. But basically it's now a developer workstation. So it's a traditional desktop environment but targeted at developers. So it's got a bit of a developer slide in terms of the available applications, in terms of how leading edge the components are, that sort of thing. We're using GNOME quite heavily, although there is a KD spin or other installer that you can use. We use lots of stuff from 3ds up to old, so GNOME isn't just the visual stuff that you see. You've also got all the bits underneath, like debus. We depend on system D for all sorts of things like suspending a lot of power management stuff, new power. So not just the graphical environment that you see, we depend on a lot of other things. There are a lot of other applications in the workstation. Leave Rockets is probably the biggest one. But there are a few others, some sort of Fedora. You could say Fedora-specific things like abort and stuff like that. And some other bits and pieces here and there. But mostly it's a pretty stock GNOME installation with some other things. So what do we want to do next? A lot of what we're doing in the workstation right now is potentially changing the way that we distribute applications. A big thing that's been developed by one of the guys in the desktop group predominantly, Alex Larson. He's been working on XCG app, which became Flatpak. It's part of a rebranding exercise. It's mainly a way to distribute applications. You can also think of a way to sandbox applications from the point of view of not allowing an application to do as much on the host system as it could, or as an account at this moment. The sandboxing stuff isn't quite there yet. It isn't fully fledged. It depends on a lot of things that are still moving. It depends on Wayland. And also it depends on kernel features that haven't really completely been fully shaken out, like user namespaces and C groups, which are all changing at the moment. So we don't want to hype the sandboxing too much and say it's all amazing and you should use these things and it's the best thing ever. Because right now that's not the case. It will be eventually the best thing ever. But the sandboxing stuff is kind of secondary to the distribution side at the moment. So it has a concept of runtimes, which is basically roughly slashed user on a traditional Linux system. So something like a collection of libraries and other dependencies that an application would need to run. So you can imagine that you'd have a GNOME runtime, which would be something like GTK, Cairo, GStreamer, maybe, or maybe you'd put that in a free desktop runtime. Basically everything that an application targeting that platform would expect to have available. So you want that to be as useful as possible to people developing against that runtime. You envidges that there'll be stacked runtimes. So you have a free desktop runtime, which contains maybe some more lower level stuff. You have a GNOME runtime on top. Maybe you have something else. But we also don't have to say that too many runtimes are going to be out there because that just makes it harder. It basically means that users have to download more stuff. You also have applications, which can include some of those components that you would traditionally have in a runtime. So say that your application wants to bundle, I don't know, a particular GStreamer codec that, say, your distribution doesn't ship for patent reasons. You could do that inside an application bundle if you wanted to. And that works pretty well at this stage. It depends on things being plug-ins or there being some kind of extension point that you can pick into. But that's very possible. In terms of actually installing and using these flat pack bundles, there's actually graphical support right now. Richard Hughes has been working on this. Caller has been working on this as well in GNOME software. He's going to give a talk tomorrow about that. So I definitely recommend that you go and see it. It's pretty cool. He's been doing a lot of work with Alex on the flat pack library side to make this useful for GNOME software. So that's been like, there's been some really, really rapid development there. And already, even in Fedora 24, I think a lot of the stuff has been backborded. So it's already pretty usable at this stage. I talked briefly about the sandboxing. And what that generally means is that right now, if you run an application on a desktop machine, then that application can do anything that the user permissions would allow it to do. So it can trash files in your home directory. It can write anywhere that you have permission to write to. It can do quite a lot of stuff actually. Maybe it can print something. You know, you can do all sorts of things. You can probably change the application volume through Pulse Audio. There are a lot of things it can do. And a lot of things it's actually very difficult to prevent with the way that applications have run at the moment. So what Flatback does is it uses user namespaces, POD namespaces, cgroups, and a few other technologies as well. And it bind mounts a pretty empty system and gives the application access to that and nothing else. This is primarily for desktop applications. So it's not like Docker in the sense that it's not really for a sort of traditional serve application where you run a binary and that probably needs access to a particular port. It's not really set up for that. You could probably run serve applications inside Flatback, but it's really not the use case that we're envisaging. So you're probably not going to have a good time when you do that. It's really for desktop applications. So we have special features perfecting into debuts so that if your application needs to access a particular debut service in the user session, you can open a hole in the sandbox. There's a debut property that's included with Flatback. And that means that you can control access much more fine-grained access to the system in the session bus with debuts. As I say, the sandboxing isn't quite fully fledged yet. It's coming along. There are problems at the moment with things like accessing decon, so what you'd store your user settings in using G settings. That's a really tough problem to solve completely. There's some really good work on it. I mean, Albert is nodding his head because I know he deals with this quite a lot in the fleet command. It's tough to solve this completely. There are some cool ideas going on. Alison has some really great ideas about how to solve this, but I think the code doesn't exist in the usable form yet. So that's going to take some time to solve. There are lots of things like that that are going to take time to solve. I'll talk later a little bit about portals, which are the way that we envisage users will interact with the system and get access to things on the system that this handbox would normally prevent. There's some really good work going on about that. So I'll talk about that later. Of course, it sounds great if a developer can quite easily produce an application bundle. They can put all of the software they want inside that bundle, and then they can ship that directly to users. It sounds fantastic, except if you're used to a distribution model where actually a lot of the control over what packages get to users is under the distributions control. I mentioned pattern encumbered codecs as an example of something where with Fedora this is a problem at this stage with, say, MP3, where we don't ship any MP3 codecs, because currently there are still a few patterns that are relevant to it. That becomes a bit more difficult because then you say, well, who's liable if someone tries to enforce this in some way? Is the person distributing the bundle, like what if that's linked to from something that Fedora has? It's a complicated question. There are a few other complicated questions around that, but mostly they're not really technical questions from the development side, then more sort of legal issues and things like that. Security updates is quite an interesting one. Haven't really been solved yet, but on the other hand, if you think about what a runtime is, it's like the GNOME stack. You've got all your libraries that would say loads of image formats so that you'd expect there to be probably some vulnerabilities in those image loading libraries. It depends on who ships that runtime as to who's responsible for the security updates. If the distribution ships it, then that's something that's under the distribution's control, and if they update that library, let's say libpng or something, and there's a security fix, you'd expect the runtime to be updated at the same time. If someone's bundled that, like Firefox would probably do that, for instance, because they have their impact, it's the libpng for animatedpng support and things like that, they'd probably have to update that pretty quickly as well. I don't know how that's going to work, but it's going to be a problem that's going to have to be solved at some point, and this is going to be a social problem really, as well as a technical problem. Also, I mentioned that you can, as an application developer, put pretty much anything you want into the runtime if you need some extra support. That also kind of implies that you can override what is on the system. So if there's a version of a library on the system that you don't like because it's got some patch there or is more recent and caused problems because you're not used to that and you haven't developed against that or tested against that, you can override that by putting into your application bundle whatever you want. So it remains to be seen what's an acceptable level of overlap there and what amount of overriding you can get away with and users can tolerate. So we'll see how that goes. And of course that does somewhat lessen the impact of a distribution as a whole because if you look at the workstation right now, you've got a very large amount of software there in terms of the number of packages and things involved. You've got over a thousand packages. If your flatpack runtime takes out, say, 500 of those packages in the middle and says, well, that's the runtime, that's what you can depend against there, where does that leave a distribution for those 500 packages? Obviously flatpack is not going to take over the world overnight and you're not going to completely switch to it in one smooth transition, but it does going to make you wonder where the lines are going to be drawn. Also you start to think about the sandbox applications and you can run from flatpack and think, well, you're saying that these current applications that you run in your system are insecure from the point of view that they can have access to anything that your user can have access to. So that means that your flatpack applications suddenly sound like maybe a safer option than what the distribution is shipping. It's just kind of interesting. I mean at this stage maybe that's not the case, but there's certainly the potential for those applications to be more secure. Also, I guess the kind of reason for having the runtime as this kind of single blob is to kind of remove the problem that you have with a distribution where you have many, many packages where just one of those packages, if it's updated on a different schedule to something else, if someone doesn't realise it in the compatibility, can cause all sorts of problems when someone updates that maybe in a way that the person who was offering a package update didn't expect. And with an application runtime you can update the runtime one piece and test the whole thing against a version. It's less because of that. Again, this is more a question of how the runtime do get updated in the end. Do you have one runtime that gets updated when there's a GNOME release and then maybe when there's the next stable GNOME release and that's the only time you update it? Do you update it a lot into the future, like with Fedora where you have a one-year lifecycle for each release and you have stuff pushed out right until the end of that lifecycle, you have kernel updates, all sorts of low-level updates that can break things. Will we do the same with runtimes or will they be more stable? We're hoping they're more stable, but it's not quite clear. So initially when I talked about this and submitted the talk pros I'll use the word in atomic workstation. That's, I guess, slightly confusing because atomic, when people talk about Fedora, probably they have an idea that this is for cloud instances or servers or something and they maybe have an idea in their mind of what atomic is. And although OS tree, which is what I'm now sort of using in my descriptions of it, is the underlying technology in atomic. It's probably nice to maybe not stomp on the atomic name. It's kind of a brand that's a little bit far to remove from what the desktop's doing. So an OS tree workstation is going to use OS tree for versioning file system. If you're not familiar with OS tree at all it's basically a bit like Git for file systems. Specifically bootable file system trees. So you can imagine that you would have a commit per package update. So one of the packages that's in that that OS tree repository, which is what you call that would get updated and you'd have a new commit. Or you could push load and load this up into it and have a new commit as well. It would be some much bigger, more all-encompassing update. Something that's useful from the Fedora side is RPM OS tree. RPM slurps all the content out of those and commits those to an OS tree repository. It does those not on the client system but on the server. So it's a server-side composed process basically. That's kind of nice. It means that you're not actually running any RPM stuff on the host system. So you're probably familiar with the fact that when you saw an RPM you have that you can run a post install or uninstall all the various other stages during the install process. They run with root privileges. They can do pretty much anything. Obviously there are some restrictions. But and directly for stuff that's in Fedora they have to package and guidelines and things like that. But it's kind of difficult to enforce a lot of that. RPM OS tree enforces it from the point of view of they're not run on the client system at all. They're only run on the composed process and some of them are not run depending on if you're using package layering. Like the postscripts, they're just not run. There's going to be some changes there because the certain things like vagrant installs to something like slash, slash, slash, vagrant and some other stuff. That's done in the postscript. That just doesn't work because you have to do all that yourself. So we need to close the gap there to make that actually work. The other thing is that most of the host system is actually read-only. Pretty much everything got moved into slash user and that is actually mounted read-only. And that means that certain things got moved around so they're not there. It also means that things like the RPM database is read-only. There are some hacks that you can do around that which is this package layering that has recently been implemented. That means that you can take a repository that exists such as say the workstation repository which has the workstation package set and you can say, well, I want to install Enax for him or like my favourite text editor or something and I want that to be on the host and available. You can use package layering to inject that RPM or whatever RPMs you want into your system locally not on the server side. Very, very cool. Not quite finished yet the support but as a sort of early test it's a really impressive bit of technology. A lot of things still especially in Fedora land kind of expect that there to be an RPM database there and also I think that Colin moved it there and made it read-only just so that things could query it and say like, which version of this do I have so that you can say, oh well, I've got this bug fix or I haven't. I think you can still get the change logs I think you can still pull those out if you've actually changed in this update you can get that sort of thing out. Beyond that being able to query that is very important so for a movie it would be great. Right, we even have a very small manifesto of this version of the OS 3 much as this one does today. Right, but that's changing the API. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Tradition. Well, it's less tradition and more it doesn't cost too much. Depends how you want to call it. So that means that for the base OS for what you provide as the workstation it's going to be using OS 3 and RPM OS 3 to actually make that image in terms of composing that on the status site. We think that you're going to be using flat pack for the applications in the future. You can already do it now and there are a lot of projects that are jumping on the flat pack bandwagon and creating these bundles. A lot of the free software projects things like GIM and Firefox and a few other things are really jumping into this because it's quite cool from their point of view. It's traditionally even really difficult for them to ship development releases out to people because they have to make packages for each distribution they have to test that it works on all the different versions that are available it's kind of a drag and if they can use one tool to make a package that works most places, maybe not all places but most places that's kind of a compelling argument for them and it's also good for the users because they get to test out the software in a way that won't affect the rest of their system won't impact it in the slices so good for both sides there. It's kind of seamless for users as well because GIM software supports it already I think the .flat pack except file extension or there's definitely a live type so if you download one of these bundles right now in Fedora in 24 I think it will actually work and install it directly which is very cool and also that you can actually have it set up so that will then update that it depends on the person who bundled it as to whether they've set up the repository correctly but you can download a single file bundle and then that will be updateable in the future the current package says I'm sorry I want to say that it doesn't actually work in Dora 24 now but we are planning on backporting it that's cool excellent I'm sure Richard will talk more about it tomorrow so the current package set is taken from the current Fedora workstation package set there are some problems there like the fact that the groups that's taken from cons isn't actually supported by the current tooling I'll talk a bit more about that later there is kind of an argument then that maybe we need to change the current package set maybe it doesn't make quite as much sense for a workstation product that's using OS3 but that's a good discussion that we can have later as well so how does this improve things for users and developers compared to a current system one of the cool things is that you can do an atomic upgrade of the whole file system so what does that mean it means that if you're doing say a distribution upgrade and you have however many thousand packages that you're installing all of those packages like post-in scripts everything there has to succeed say you're updating something like the SELINX policy and that changes halfway through in a way that cause problems I know there's been discussion about this recently where what happens if you update the policy and it forbids something that you're doing as part of the upgrade process you can run into problems there the idea with an atomic upgrade is that this is all done on the server side at once in one single transaction that either succeeds or fails cleanly it's cool and it does actually work pretty well you can still run into problems and it does also mean that if you have one package that blocks the compose like Librofus is doing at the moment in Rohide and has been doing for a week or two then you can't easily get around that it's just frustrating but I'll give you that it's kind of nice to separate these two processes the server composing and the actual update process on the client side what you basically do is you set up a load of RPMOs and it sets up a load of hard links and then on the next reboot it switches over to that new system again this means that it's a bit different from the way the current system works so currently you can just upgrade one package using dnf oh I really want to do this now you can just change a few things there if you're not running that package at the time it'll probably work and you might get away with it known software recently I guess since it's been in existence has mostly forced you to do reboots for package upgrades and this is the same like it will force you to do reboots from the point of view of that you won't get a new system until you reboot there's no halfway has there at the moment a mostly read-only root file system there are going to be a lot of pieces of software and a lot of users who are very used to doing things in a certain way and you are going to maybe find out that those things don't work or at least they're going to have to modify the way that they work if they want to use them on something that's using OS tree for the base OS that's going to be fun so that's kind of from a level perspective how much of an improvement is it in terms of actually deploying applications I think it's really good from a developer's point of view because depending on what sort of software you maintain if you're maintaining an application that normal users want to use you're kind of constrained by distributions and their update processes and their life cycles in terms of getting an application out to users so if you're targeting an enterprise distribution or some long term support distribution then you might have to wait several years in order to get an application update to all those kinds of users even if it fixes a bug or has some really important new feature that those users need sure you can have things like copper or PPAs and things to get that out there but you've then got to do that packaging work yourself in multiple places and those users have to trust all of those places it's difficult, you can GPG sign packages and things but it's kind of a fragmented way of doing things because distributions fragmented way of doing things also that's just like getting fixes out there if you want to let users test your development version that's something that distributions are going to be even less likely to want to put in there unless maybe you're running raw hide and you expect that in the next life cycle that application is going to be updated you don't generally put something that's like equivocally unstable into raw hide that's what you shouldn't be doing because that's not what it's for but if you have flat pack application, someone can always basically stay on that development channel and always be testing latest version and reporting bugs to you if that's what they want to do give the user a bit more choice, a bit more power there to actually get what they want if you ever used flat pack to actually bundle an application it's pretty easy actually if your application is kind of a relatively standard thing it's mostly configure make install or see make equivalence or various other equivalence in doing this there are some changes that are required but from the application build point of view it's really very little, it's generally renaming maybe a desktop file and some prefixes, there's not much complication there there'll be a workshop at Gwadech which is next week about this where I'll be helping Alex to talk people through bundling an application for the first time so be very welcome to come along and find out on the material on the website afterwards there's actually a trust model as well flat pack uses GPG signatures of repositories and the individual who actually commits I think so it's actually kind of easier to place trust in those binaries whether that will work once things get a bit bigger is a bit difficult to know because obviously something like GPG is really kind of a way of trust model so it's very easy for the user to say okay this thing signed by this GPG this thing but then if that uses a runtime from somewhere else that uses a different GPG key do they trust that thing as well do they implicitly trust a known runtime because that's what we want to provide as a default we'll see another fun question to figure out on this one it's also nice from the developers point of view because a lot of distributions will either intentionally or just to make it work they will patch things downstream and those patches maybe will never make their way upstream it used to be a problem because I'm distributed to more than others and obviously I know like one example where this was a problem was on Ubuntu with the scroll bars that they used for GTK this was a problem for a long time and there had to be this huge like black list and white list of applications that wouldn't work with this if you as an application developer want to know that your application is going to work then you would try to reduce your testing matrix as much as possible you want to test with a known configuration and know that it's going to work for other people on that configuration you can do that with something like Flatback because you have your runtime and you can be sure that if someone else is using the same version of runtime they're going to have the same experience that's got to be helpful for testing and QA it's got to be good for the users because they're getting what they expect to see based on the screensets you're providing obviously there are some slight holes there because the runtime depends on the host system and there can be differences in the host system again, we'll see how that goes so if you want to do this yourself then how would you go about it I'm just going to throw some random commands on the screen that you can either copy down or you can completely ignore that's fine it's a pretty simple process basically you initialise an I'm an OX tree repository just like a git repository really and you use RPMOX tree with a package manifest and a few other configuration directives and you say slurp all of these packages and put them into this OX tree repository please that link to the bottom is a configuration that I've put up it currently uses the workstation package set as a base it's really too much else it's very very basic at this time but I'm running a VM on my system using that and it works in the way that the workstation works it's the same package set basically it's very very similar pretty much everything works with caveats of having mostly a read-only file system and things like that you could go into great depths about all the configuration directives that you have in this package manifest and there are a lot of them but it's not so interesting for users and hopefully this sort of thing is hidden from so this is something that really it should basically take the package list from comps and the user shouldn't really have to think about it too much you can actually convert an existing system to use this so that there are a few different ways that you can actually test this stuff out you can basically initialise your current re-file system as something that you can then pull all this OX tree repository into and again there are some commands there that will help you do that that's what you want to do it's pretty ugly at this stage in terms of competing an existing system to do it again it works but it's pretty low level at the moment we don't envision that people are actually going to be doing this we hope that they're going to be using an installer in the future and it has been some work on that which I'll talk about next there are quite a few different ways to create an installer the way it's done encode you at the moment it uses Lorax which is a tool that Anaconda uses to bundle everything up and put that on an ISO image there's another tool that goes on top of RPMOS tree so you've got OS tree, RPMOS tree and then RPMOS tree toolbox and that's another set of scripts on top and you can do various things with that so one of the things that you can do is you can create ISO images from your OS tree repository you've got exactly the same package information you've got exactly the same file system you've additionally got that on the installer, I say it's not a vertsing RPMOS tree toolbox I don't think is what Koji uses to make the Fedoro atomic images look at the file ones but it does use Lorax so there's going to be some fun there trying to get those things all to squash together and actually working he's done most of the preliminary work there he's got some working installer ISO images that he's doing on a sort of continuous integration basis you can download them from that link there he's also got a fork of the OS tree configuration for the workstation that I linked to earlier so this link at the bottom here if you go there you'll find that there's a fork that he's got where he's been working on doing the continuous integration with that and working on the installer with that so I'd definitely encourage if you're interested in contributing to look at those and see whether you find anything interesting there and whether you want to help it's not really clear what message we're definitely going to use we want to keep Anaconda as an installer because we don't particularly want to maintain our own installer around Anaconda and does what we want maybe does some stuff we don't want as well but that's not the point in this case so I don't know maybe there will be some different way to install but we think that's how it's going to work so I bet this is going to be great and it's going to be the future but how is it right now well if you were to use it right now then what you'll quickly find is that some applications are available as flat-pack bundles most are not and that isn't actually too surprising because really as a full-fledged project it's only been released in the federal 24 timeframe so you wouldn't expect it to have taken over the world quite yet but there is going to be more support and as more people install later the later versions of Fedora and other distributions more people are going to be exposed to it and more people are going to be able to use it so I think the number of bundles is going to increase definitely GNOME is running a continuous integration project where they're producing bundles for all the applications that are in the GNOME desktop and that's very easy because we use this build API concept that Convolters came up with which is basically configure, make install as a standard that your application is expected to do from the source title so that's something that should be pretty easy for others to jump on as well because that's what most applications already do if you went to Christian's talk you'll have heard a little bit about portals so those are the the bits that sit in between the sandbox and the host system where you can essentially poke holes in the sandbox and make it easier for an application to do certain things like for instance if it wants to access some hardware like a webcam normally it wouldn't be able to have more access to the device node because as soon as you give an application more access to a device node it can basically do whatever it wants for that device and webcams and joysticks and things you can do some pretty scary things to those if given the chance so we don't really want to give applications access so we want to have something in between that can proxy that access and their interfaces are being written now and those interfaces of APIs to actually access various bits of the system there's a lot of development there they are most definitely nowhere near finished it's coming along quite quickly we already have basic things like file chooses I think there's a printing proxy that sits in the middle as well I think there's an audio one like access to the microphone access to the sound I think probably we'll have people to put out wherever the sound they want but they can't use the microphone because the microphone is something that you can eavesdrop on users if you do that but if you have just outputting sounds you kind of expect an application to want to do that so a lot of that isn't even necessarily just the API or the interface for that it's actually figuring out what is a sensible default luckily other distributions and operating systems that really blaze that trail for us so you're kind of used to mobile platforms you know you install an application that says it needs these permissions we're not doing that we're doing sensible defaults so that the user can run something for the first time hopefully not have a permissions dialogue unless it's something like a webcam or something potentially where the application can eavesdrop on the user but a lot of that is still to be final the kind of sound boxing features that it uses like user namespaces they are not heavily tested from the point of view of they haven't necessarily been used in this way before so I think only recently like a month or two ago there was some vulnerability found in user namespaces that was critical I anticipate there will be lots more of those vulnerabilities found and lots more of things where people say this doesn't work in a way that it would advertise of course the only way we can actually improve these things is by getting more people to use them and at this stage we're not hyping a sandboxing capability to say it's going to solve all your problems overnight it's not making sure that it gets there also it depends on a system of user sessions if therefore you want to run flat packs on rail 7 you will find that you can't do that at this stage I'm going to be working on that support soon because basically all it does is it depends on setting up C groups in a certain way so that you put your running application inside a C group that's really all it needs to the system of user session for just to find the application inside a C group so that will also be applicable to other systems where they're not using system of user sessions but it's coming we know about it and it's being worked on the sandboxing doesn't rely on user namespaces that has a security capability I mean user namespaces and POD namespaces are one of the things that it's doing but also it's using POD namespaces so it's whatever bubblewrap is doing as well I can't remember which bits it's using for POD namespaces it's just one of the array of things that it's doing and eventually we're going to add SE Linux some form SE Linux support I don't think there's anything there at the moment it's like a scaler to a level of support there so I don't know what's happening with that right yet which is what I didn't mention there are probably plenty of other things that are problems that we haven't thought of yet but going back to the problems with an OSG workstation where you might not be expecting these things so you don't have a writable slash user that means things like alternatives don't work so if you want to switch between VI and VM or like Emax and Xemax and stuff like that I think it's normally done with basically a simlink that you change that doesn't work and a lot of those things suddenly aren't going to work in the same way so we either need to come up with new ways to do those things or say inclusively no they're not going to work, they're not going to be supported currently the package layering is very very rough but that's just because the support has just been added so if you want to add extra packages that are currently RPMs and not flat packs to your system things like the RPMs postscripts don't run I know that Beigwyn is an example of this what he already mentioned some people probably won't like the fact that you have to reboot switch into a new system I don't see that as a massive problem because it means that the package upgrade process is so much quicker and so much more reducible that you can also roll back to the previous version if the new version doesn't work very very easily but I mean some people will say well I want to be able to do it live I don't think that's going to be supportive but the policy Colin really likes to complain about the eti-learns policy breaking things and I mean I guess it does because inevitably you get some package updated that doesn't have an updated eti-learns policy change available it's not like eti-learns as a problem it's just that you know you're constantly playing catch up with the policy it's not really no estri problem let's say it's more just a problem that it exposes there are going to be plenty more surprises and we just need to get more users and more testers and more people contributing to really sort of reduce those numbers but it's already definitely usable I mean Patrick is going to be giving a talk tomorrow I think where he's using it on his home system so he'll be sort of more concerned about the implications the problem with actually integrating these things into the Fedora processes is that currently Koji's really really good at spitting out RPMs and surprise surprise with this new technology it's not really very good at spitting out flat pack bundles that's not again not a fault of Koji it's just that no one's actually written the support yet to do that and also we're not quite clear on what Koji's spitting out flat pack bundles is going to mean and do we want to also spit out run time we're not really sure yet as I said there isn't an easy way to produce an installer right now the stuff that Colin's worked on is a crazy amount of different configuration files to massage a lot of the stuff to actually produce an installer it's only complicated because that's just the way it is at the moment we're not really sure how that's going to turn out but there is an installer that does work for the coming time of I guess for the year 26 because we're going to miss the 25 I think again I talked about RPMO actually not taking cons so not taking our existing way that we define packages as input for the package manifest that needs I think some lipid support or something and I think Patrick has a workaround for that that he's going to talk about during his talk there are undoubtedly other things where the current floor and protractor doesn't do what we want it's not because the floor and protractor sucks it's just because we haven't written a support for it yet so there are some resources there for the bits that we're using there isn't really any definitive resource for like the RSV workstation effort but the desktop made in this is probably the best place to go I hang out in the Fedora workstation channel on FreeNode as well as the Flaphack channel and GameOS on GimpNet so you can come and ping me there I'm Amiga Dave on IFC and everywhere else Colin Walters has been doing a lot of the underlying OS3 work obviously it's kind of his creation and he also okays me to do some workstation work when he has time but he's doing a million other things so I don't know whether he'll be like heavily involved in the future or whether it's just another thing that he'll do a little bit of work on here and there so I'm open to the floor what about infrastructure infrastructure to build the Flaphacks and also distributing them because it's kind of crude actually and also how to integrate this in distribution like there we want to be able maybe in Flora to be able to build the Flaphacks and distribute them and for instance we can use our spec files and translate them to actual Flaphacks and it's technically possible so right now RPM OS3 that's basically what it does you take some RPM some bind me up that you've got from the spec file and your table and you create a commit in an OS3 repository containing that information in terms of Flaphack bundles it's not quite clear whether an application will actually provide this so whether an application in its source code is not clear whether it's going to as standard provide these are what you need this is the Flaphack manifest basically it might be for game applications we have a repository of these things that's separate from the applications themselves so we're not really sure what other upstreams are going to do and also then you have this problem with the run times where those are something that's like at the moment quite separate and off to the side and there isn't a standard way of building those Flaphack does have a tool called Flaphack Builder and it's a lot easier which is why you have this manifest format and various other bits of metadata that are sort of standardised but yeah it's not clear like on the server side how this is all going to fit together yet and we do need to figure that out there are various bits that it also pulls together like I think it pulls together some app stream stuff which is also done mostly server side at the moment in Fedora I think but then that's all separate that's all just like inside the bundle and everything is separate from the rest of the district there are plans to write a traditional thing we're creating platform models out of RPMs spec files and just what we're doing this year and still very much under discussion about how we're going to do it but we certainly know that not every upstream is going to immediately try the Flaphack specification spec files and definitions of a whole lot of applications in Fedora to really get the content that we're going to need to have mostly small applications that we can write in Fedora available on Flaphack so the idea which is still under discussion is to have a co-g to be able to take a spec file and rebuild it as a Flaphack and have a process of Flaphack that we're creating out of the Fedora and we stand by this enough that we adapt it to work in a special way with Flaphack so it will give you the same optionality you have now there seems to be a lot of crossover there between that and the same docket languages which we're also supporting in Flora and the infrastructure and stuff like that and the ability to basically take a manifest of a list of RPMs and generate a different artifact from Composer and so from an infrastructure and a release engineering and a process point of view there can be overlap with a lot of that because it's a container with a bunch of binaries in it whether it's like wrapped in a docker thing or a Flaphack thing or any of the other dozen different formats that are out there the process isn't really that different in the creation of the artifact and there's already made a huge amount of work to integrate that in the diskit and coergy and various other built systems so that it would be if you could go down that route you would save yourself vast amounts of time and vast amounts of other people's infrastructure and release engineering time to be able to produce the same output it's pretty clear that we can't gain real engineering if we don't think there's much costal control of the animals there there are some differences with Flaphack that's one of the main things that actually are going to have to be rebuilt to make the Flaphack out of them because where instead of having user bin things to do at the bin things to be able to save that picture and build it back you can just do that so that's an experience you can relocate the files but they may not work when they're relocated and they give the most impact on the whole world that they should just move from user app bin things to do with it for you to share or escape so it's a lot of engineering to make that that's the correct location so it's going to be built in the easiest way so being able to take the talk here it's going to discuss this more how we can really leverage it so that's it so we're not going to what we're trying to find the way to do is to move at least up to the list of areas involved in the name if you have any other questions thank you very much


What's up everybody? I'm so excited today. Today's the day that I believe I'm gonna hit 20,000 subscribers. I'm about a hundred away right this second. So I wanted to go live. I wanted to hopefully hit this while I'm live. I'm gonna give away some of my books. I'm gonna let you guys put your number in so I can call you. I wanna get some people on the phone and answer some questions. I wanna tell you about a lot of the future events I'm gonna be at different places I'm gonna be and all this stuff. I'm just so excited right now with the direction of everything. I also, let's see, let me make sure I got everything, everything the way it's supposed to be. Give me a thumbs up if you can hear me right this second. Make sure my audio is working right. And put your number in if you want me to give you a ring right now. Cause I'm just gonna be seeing here answering questions from the next hour or so. Let's see. I'm also gonna be, like I said, I'm gonna give away several of my books. I'm gonna sign them and mail them to you. So yeah, so I've also started to do the Zero to Diamond show. Okay, I've already had Parker Gray chasing Jay Miles on. Some future guests I have. Monday, I'm gonna have coach Michael Burt. Okay, this guy spoke at the 10X conference. He's a big time player in the coaching world. I'm not just real estate agents, but he's a very high energy guy. So I'm excited about that interview. That's gonna be Monday. In two days I'm gonna have him. Caleb Maddox, the self-made millionaire by 16. He's only 17 years old right now doing incredible things. He just came out with the Apex for Kids, which is a self-development program for kids, right? There's not a self-development program out there for kids. And he has developed one that is incredible. It helps kids in the way to help them understand, like later they need to get up and make their bed first thing. But he does it in a way that's almost kind of like a levels and like a video game kind of deal where it's really easy for him to understand. And he's just a really high energy guy, you know? So really excited to have him on. I just confirmed Brian Casella is gonna come on to the show. I got Joshua Smith coming. I got Danny Morrell, I've confirmed all of these. So I'm really excited. And if there's anybody that you wanna see me interview or bring on my channel, just put it in the comments and I'll bring them on. I'll work on it, I'll get them here. I'm working on several other pretty big names. So I just wanna bring big names on my channel. Moving forward. I wanna do really incredible videos. I just filmed six videos right now today that are be coming out over the next couple of weeks that were straight, fire, super high energy, really incredible information. I'm really getting better at articulating what's going on in my head with the camera so that you guys can get more value out of it. So I'm really working hard to bring you guys more and more value and to figure out what's working, what's not working, what you like, what you don't like, so on and so forth. So let's see events I'm gonna be at soon. And you guys that are watching put in your phone number and I'll call you. I wanna get some people on the phone here and get some conversations going about how I can help you, whatever problems, specific issues that you're having. I'm gonna be giving away some of my books. I'm gonna give away three or four, five or 10 books today just depending on how this thing goes. Events I'm gonna be at El Paso. I'll be at the Explode Conference at El Paso, Charleston, South Carolina, Minneapolis. I'll be at those three events. For sure there's some more Explode Conferences after that that I'm sure I'll be at as well but I haven't locked anything in. Also the big event in Dallas, the huge event in Dallas. It's gonna be Danny Morel, Joshua Smith, Brian Casela, Colton Lindsey, Nick Good. It's gonna be really chasing Jay Miles. It's gonna be really one for the ages. I'm really looking forward. I think this is gonna be one of the best real estate events in a really long time. It's something the industry needs is to hear from the up-and-coming coaches that are building their coaching businesses through social media as opposed to a lot of the older coaches. So that's a very exciting thing coming up soon. Let's see, okay, we got a phone number. Let's get this, let's get this going. And if you guys would please hit subscribe, tell all your friends, share this video, trying to get to 20,000 today. I'm about a 20, I'm about 100 subscribers away from that. So I figured I may hit it today. Let's see, let's get somebody on the phone here and see what we can do to help them. Dora! Hey Dora. Yes. Ricky Careuth. This is Ricky Careuth. I'm doing good. Can you turn the video on mute for me? The video on mute. Yeah, that you're watching? Hold on, let me turn it on. Hey Dora. Yes. Yes. Ricky Careuth. What's this? Hey Dora. Can you turn that on mute? Okay, I turned, yes, I want to hold it down, it's mute. Okay, cool, cool, how are you? Great, it's just awesome to see that you're calling me. Yeah, yeah, for sure. So like how long, where did you find me? How long have you been following? Tell me all about it. Well, you know what? I didn't even know from you, but my son has been, he watches a lot of coaches and he said one day, mom, you know what? You're struggling so much, but this guy, he is doing awesome. He is doing great. And you have to start watching him. So every day he gives me more information, more information.  Are you doing that? He said the army. Oh, okay. So basically what I did, I the other day drove to where you were at Naples. I even got there late because it was the wrong time. I thought it was later than the time that I was there. But anyway, the thing is that all the things that you're teaching, all the things that you're seeing are making sense. It's just putting your body on the computer, getting the people talking to them. I have been doing some of that. I'm not doing whole nine parts because I have, I'm a pastor's wife and I'm involved in other things, but I know that following what you're saying, I'm going to reach and get to do this with all your coaching. It is awesome. Absolutely.  And then it offers a situation where you can't lose. It doesn't matter if you lose deals, it doesn't matter if this happens or that happens and the market crashes, like you cannot lose. See what I'm saying? Yes, you know what? The most amazing thing is there's something that it looks, it's for some people, it's not simple, but it's not that difficult. When you said this is a business of talking to people, doesn't matter what they say, it doesn't matter what they think, it's just talking to people, talking to people. Sometimes you use some other kind of strategies. Sometimes they don't work, it's talking to people. Like you have to create the relationship, send the emails, keep talking to them, keep talking to them, you get the deal and it's like a relationship forever. Exactly, exactly. So is there like a problem or question or anything that I can specifically help you with? Well, actually at this point in my life, the problem has been how to get the listing and it's not that I don't know how to get it but I don't know if it's not the market because you can be successful anytime but how do I move myself much faster to focus on the listing side? Okay, so the first thing is, is you should be really happy with where you are right now and not tie your happiness to how fast can I get to this next level because then you're gonna be unhappy until you get there and then you're gonna get there and realize, well, this isn't what I thought it was. Now I'm not gonna be happy until I get to the next level and the next level and you're never gonna be happy. See what I'm saying? Yes. Okay, so that's the first thing is you gotta just be happy with where you are. Now the second thing is, is you're happy with where you are because you're putting in the work to get to the next level, okay? And you know where the next level is so it makes you happy that you're gonna be there one day but you gotta be happy where you are right now. Okay, so that's like step one is it sounds like you just want it too fast, right? So that's the first thing. The second thing is the way to get listings and I can still hear myself, is it on mute or not? No, it's on mute. It's completely on mute. That's weird. So the way to get listings, how do we get listings, okay? We get listings like who has the listings? You know, where are all these listings at that we can have access to? Well, their property owners give us the listings. They own the property, they decide they want us to be their agent and they give the listing to us. That's the process, right? And so the only way to get more listings is to create more relationships with more property owners who would give us the listing when it comes time to sell the property. See what I'm saying?  Whoever has the relationship in place with the property owner, when they decide they want to sell the property is who is gonna get that listing. I mean, that's just the bottom line. We have to create more relationships with more property owners so that when they decide it's time to sell, we're the one that they call the list of property. Yes, that's correct. I wanted to ask you something. The other day you wrote to me and said, just go to where it says I'm from zero to diamond. But if you could tell me very briefly about the emails that you send in a, I guess it's in a weekly basis. It's basically talking about the market and how do you keep yourself every week sending different stuff, different stuff, nonstop. Well, because every single day there's new listings, there's new closings, there's new pendings, there's new market information, every day there's new stuff. You can send out an email every day and say, here's the new listings today, here's the closed sales today. See what I'm saying? There's more, there's new information by the minute, you know?  Well, heck, every minute there's something new to say. Right, right. Okay. So you need to go to the website, thezerotodiamond.com. There's an online course. There's a lesson in the course that's called Ricky's Weekly Email. And if you- Oh, right. Yeah, if you click there, there's a video tutorial of me. It's about an hour long of me building the email, talking about it, screen sharing my computer, going through the whole process of me building that email and why I do it, what information I share with my clients in the whole nine yards. Okay, great. I'm going to do that. That's going to help me a lot. Yeah. It really is. Okay. And one thing, how do you follow up with people that they want to start from the 90 day process? How do you call? I forgot, you have a word for it. How do I call? Who? Agents? No, no, no. Oh, clients? You know that the challenge, the 90 day challenge that we have. Yeah.  This is what I achieve. Yeah, exactly. No, when you achieve, when you complete the 90 day action plan, then you're going to send me an email and say, I completed it. Let's set up a call. Okay. And then, yeah. And then I set up a call and then I talked to you about what has happened over the last 90 days and see if you're really on track. See if you really believe in this zero to diamond philosophy. See if you really want to become a diamond and make a million dollars. I want to see what you really are about at that point.  And then I'll put you in a different Facebook group that's just gems and above people that have completed the 90 day action planning up. And then that gives me permission to spend more time with you to help you get to diamond. Wow. That is very exciting. It's a privilege to have somebody like you that started like from, you said, Sparrow and that's all the market crash. And that went through so many things and helping other people with interests of seeing us succeed. And when you see us succeed, I think you're going to succeed more. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm doing it for free. Like I don't, I'm not charging you anything for this. That is correct. That is correct. Thank you so much for all your work. And I'm here, I'm trying my best to watch your videos to play when you see Ring the Bell and all that stuff. Yeah. But I know I could do it and I believe in myself. That's all it takes from there. Now you got to follow the program, put the work in and be happy with where you are right now. Don't base your happiness on what could happen in the future. That's right. Got it. That is correct. Got it. Thank you so much for your time and calling me. Absolutely. Thank you so, so much and I'll keep following you. Okay. Thank you. Have a good day. You too, sir. Bye-bye. What do you guys think about that? Let me know in the comments. Put your phone number in.  I have another phone number I'm going to call right now. Also, if you haven't clicked subscribe and trying to get to 20,000, tell your friends, tell them to come here. Tell them to subscribe. And I'm just trying to provide value. Let's see what this, this is Shauna from Montreal, Canada. Hello. Hello. This is Ricky. Hello. Hi, Ricky. Hey, hey. How are you? I'm doing good. How about you? I'm great. Thank you. Thank you very much for calling me. Yeah, absolutely. I'm happy to get you live. I'm a big fan of yours. Yeah. Awesome. Awesome. You're following. Where'd you find me? Well, I found you looking at a few of your competitors kind of. I was following Brian Tracy. I was following all kinds of competitors. And then I found your Alabama access really particularly. Yeah. So let me listen to this guy that works for Relax. Yeah. I work for Relax too. Oh, cool. And then I became a real big fan of yours. Oh, that's awesome. That's awesome. How long, so how long have you been selling? Probably before you were born. Oh, Lord. That would be 81. No, so then I started in 86, 86. I was a very young girl starting in the Yellow State business. Okay. I was five years old. I could have been your assistant or something. So now that I've got you live, I was just like I had a few questions concerning why you decided to go for circle prospecting. Like instead of what all the others that say go for expired, go for set by owners. Why did you go for a circle prospecting? Well, because it's more efficient number one, right? That's just the short answer. The long answer is all the other coaches are coaching to go after expires and for self-owners. I'm not against that. I also coach that. I'm just more focused around circle prospecting. And the reason is this, expireds, there's five or 10 agents calling those people. There's five or 10 agents calling them for sub-owners. No one's calling circle prospecting. So I can go backdoor on the market. That's just one thing, which I'm not worried about the fact that other people are calling them. That's fine. I can still win them out. But however, I like to go more efficient. I like to have better chances, right? And so when I'm circle prospecting, I feel like it's unlimited. I can't call all the property owners. With the expires, there's only so many a day. Now, I can go back in time and do old expires, and that opens up an unlimited opportunity. I'm not against expires or for self-owners. I have a lot of strategies that I coach around helping for self-owners for free, not going after the listing so hard on the expires, finding out why they want to sell, going deeper with that. But circle prospecting to me is how I built my business. And it's just my favorite. It's not that I don't like the other ones, it's just my favorite out of all the different ways. Another thing is, coaches think that the for sale owners expired to the low-hanging fruit. That's the low-hanging fruit. You need to go after the low-hanging fruit. Well, the thing is, is that that expire might want to wait six months. They want to take a break. The first sale owner might not want to list it for six months. Now you've got a babysitter. That's not low-hanging fruit. It could be low-hanging fruit. You could run into people that want to relist it today, convert from a for sale owner to a real estate agent today. But however, circle prospecting, you can find people that want to buy and sell right now as well. And so everything is now business and everything is future business. Every situation is different.  For sale owners, the way you get now business. Circle prospecting is future business. Not true. I have agents in my program that get listings and deals the first week that they circle prospect. It's all perception and how you're seeing things, right? If you aren't looking for the opportunities, you may talk to owner circle prospecting that want to do stuff now, but you're not capitalizing on that because you're thinking it's futuristic and you're not seeing the hints that they're giving you that they want to buy or sell. So you're not trying to go down that road with them because you're automatically thinking it's a long-term play when it's not. And so everything's short-term. Everything's long-term. Do it all. Figure out what works best for you. And, but that's why I like circle prospecting. So you do do a bit of both of the other ones also. A little bit. I like them now looking back. See, now I've already built my business. Now I have a monster business. I don't have to do as much prospecting as I used to. Back when I was prospecting, if I knew what I knew, what I know now, yes, I would have done a lot more expires and for sale by owners because now I have a relationships over transactions mentality, which I didn't have in the beginning of my career. And so if I would have approached it from a relationships over transactions mentality and I would have approached it the way that I coached my agents to do for sale by owners and expires now, then yes, I would have killed it and I would have loved it and I would have done more of it. But however, I wasn't in that kind of mind frame. So I ended up going the circle prospecting route, which ended up being a really lucrative route for me. That's it. Because at the beginning, you weren't in the diamond situation. Right, right. Yeah, far from it. Didn't even know. I mean, it was so far away. Diamond was like some unachievable massive, like that wasn't even, you know, that was like a dream. A dream. And also, I noticed in one of your videos, you mentioned that you're in the lucky ones that have both worlds, which is the new world of technology and the old world also. Yes. My career has been much of the old world where there wasn't even really, when I started in real estate, we had the sheets and the books and we didn't have any type of computer pictures and no internet. And so it's a bit difficult to adjust to both worlds, even if I'm getting there. But what can you recommend to hang around maybe with some of your old friends? No, no, no, not necessarily. I think just have an Instagram account, have a Facebook account, post once a day on those platforms, you know, just post once a day and just start to be open-minded about the possibilities there and look for opportunities, you know? Try to learn, you know, how to connect with people on these platforms and don't be closed-minded to the fact that there's so many people on these platforms and it's gonna get worse and worse. There's gonna be so many more people to come and we have to embrace it and use it to our benefit. So realize that voice to voice is the key to all closings, but a lot of times social media can be the door that opens that conversation, you know? When you say post, you mean post things that are related to real estate? No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Do personal stuff, do some business stuff. I just filmed a video right now today about how to use Facebook to build your business. And so when it comes out in a couple of weeks, you really need to watch it. It's really incredible strategy. But at the end of the video, I talk about posting twice a day, one business-related, one personal-related. But what you could do is you could do once a day, today do a business-related post, tomorrow do a personal-related post and kind of flip-flop back and forth if you wanna start out that way, you know? But it's good for your followers to see that personal side of you and the business side of you.   That's great, that's great. Thank you very much for calling me. I really appreciate it. I'm gonna continue following you kind of every day, kind of. Yeah, thank you very much. Thank you so much and just reach out if there's anything I can do for you. Thank you, Ricky. Absolutely. Have a great day. You too, bye-bye. Congratulations for the new baby. Yes, thank you so much. We're so excited. Bye-bye. What do you guys think about that call? I'm gonna give away three of my list of last books at the end of this live session. Please tell your friends to come here, subscribe. Let's see where we are right this second and then I have another call I'm going to make. Let's see where we are right this second. Okay, we're still, we're about 108 subscribers away. So if you haven't subscribed, hit subscribe. I'm gonna call somebody else and I'm just calling people, providing value today. Gonna give away three books at the end of this. Here we go. This is Tanya. Tanya? This is Ricky. This is Ricky. It's funny, my feed is on a time delay. Oh, okay. Talk with your, well, in Montreal. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Normally when you're live, whatever's happened alive, it is delayed a little bit for sure. Yeah, I know, I've experienced that myself and why we've been doing it in your five seconds or 10 seconds going. So where are you and how long you've been selling? So I am in, I'm a Canadian, living in Southern California. Okay. I'm in Los Angeles about five years ago and then moved to an area. So kind of, if you take a triangle between San Diego, Palm Springs and Los Angeles, it's right in the middle called Temecula, California. Okay, yeah, I heard of that place. Yeah, we just remained, we remain enthusiast as one of the top 10 wine destinations in the world. Wow. This year. Wow, that's incredible. So this is a fun place to be. Yeah. If you like wine. If you like wine, how about if you just like living somewhere really pretty? Oh yeah, is it nice? It is beautiful. It's like the South of France from, I haven't actually been to the South of France, but everyone who has is like, oh, it's here. Right. So how long did you say you've been selling? Four and a half, five years. Okay, cool, cool. So what? I started investing in real estate when I was 21. Okay. So it's kind of been a long term. My grandpa, there was a senior VP of Century 21 growing up, took them to 10,000 offices, broke seven or 10, something like that. I don't know. Okay, so how long have you been following me? Where'd you find me? And all that good stuff. I found you on a Facebook group. Somebody was looking for coaching. Yeah. And I had been, you know, so I just saw the post and thought, well, let's do what people say. Yeah. And your name came up a couple of places. I don't know if that's a new name. I haven't heard of all, a lot of these other people. Yeah. So I just went and checked you out, followed all your places. Yeah. Chatted with you on Instagram. And that wasn't actually that long ago. It was just like maybe two weeks ago. Right. So I am a new follower. Okay, cool. But I was literally from a thread in a post-bake. Can you hear me? I can hear you. Okay, yeah, I can hear you in my first second. Cool. So what, do you have any specific questions or anything I can help you with there? Let me think. I don't know that I do. You're just, I sent my email and said, jump on, I'm trying to get to 20,000. Yeah. Construction. And then I heard your caller from a trill and I'm like, gosh, if he's gonna call, I better have a question. But I don't, and then you called before she was even done. Right, right. Will, are you? I love what you're doing. I think that you've got some great program and I kind of think it's a cool approach to coaching and trying to build your speaking business. Yeah. What do you, what would you say your biggest takeaway is from everything you've, all my content that you've seen and heard, what is the biggest takeaway? I think with a lot of, you know, yours and others, consistency. And then one of the things that resonates a lot with me is relationship building and focusing on that. My biggest challenge is, like many people, is getting on the phone. I'm in a new, a new community coming from L.A. And so that's definitely something that I'm not as comfortable with, like I can do it. I can jump on the phone. I can do it and do it relatively well, but it still doesn't fit that well with me because I hate getting phone calls. I try not to do things in my business that I don't like receiving and I despise receiving those calls. So I'm always trying to come up with creative ways to do the things that I know are good for my business, but do them in a way that I'm not, I don't object. Do them in a way that what? That I wouldn't object to it if I received follow. Yeah. Well. That's always the challenge. And I mean, I may be getting closer to getting through that challenge, finally. Yeah. Well, I think that the biggest thing is, is that that's complete, like in other words, kind of like, that's almost an excuse, right? Right. Like it's an excuse? No, it isn't an excuse in the context of, I despise getting those phone calls myself. Right, right, right, but you know that it works though. But I do exactly. Right, so you're using the excuse, you're using the excuse that you don't like to get calls for as an excuse not to make calls. And see the thing is, is you don't like the calls. So what you have to do is you don't like the calls because they're trying to sell you something or it's a robo call or it's the way that they approach you. It's the conversation that they have. It's the way that they're communicating. They are there for a reason and that's to sell you a product or get you to do something, right? Yep. And I don't know how deep you've actually went into my content, but my calls are about, hey, how are you doing? I'm enjoying the day, isn't it gorgeous? I don't want to take it too much of your time, but a house around the corner from you sold didn't know if there's anything in the world I could do for you today. And so it's not like what you need to do is build your confidence around what your intent is. Is your intent to try to sell them or is your intent to try to help them?  You feel like you're bothering them. And so that makes a little bit of twang in your tone. You'll have a little bit of different tone. You won't even notice it, but it'll be a little bit different. It's enough for them to realize they're nervous about something. This real estate agent, something's going on here and that's a red flag.  And then you're gonna say phone calls don't work. When in reality, it's your belief in your intent enough to have a comfortable phone call. See, our job is to make people feel comfortable with us. And the way we do that is by being comfortable with them. And so if we're comfortable in that situation with them, they're gonna be comfortable with us back and now we have a working relationship. And it's all based on intent that we're not there to try to sell and we're there to try to help them. 100%, yes. A million percent. I think that that is the key is that that relationship focus, like you said, and whether you're selling in six months or a year or you're never leaving your house and just I have a lady who just called me and I sent her over to the MA because they wanna do a reverse mortgage. They might be 15 years before they ever wanna sell their house. And I'm like, of course I'll do that. She's like, well, what will you charge me? And I said, I'm not gonna charge you. Yeah. It's just something that I do. Exactly. Exactly. I can send her that part of my job to help you with your real estate. Yeah. Wow, thank you so much. Yeah, and on that front, I think that's another reason why I resonate with what you do is because I do resonate with the relationship side. Yeah. And once I get through that hurdle, it's an area where I do well. Yeah. And I have so much to offer in that in-term time, in that relationship that is value for people. Right. I definitely, I'm feeling better about it, which has been a process. Yeah, it's just something you have to move through really quick because they're stages in success and the top producers, they move from stage to stage to stage really quickly. They don't sit there at one stage and kind of like contemplate and hesitate and try to, well, what about this? What about that? They move really quickly to the next stage. They go to that stage and they say, okay, where's the next one? Okay, I go here. I go there. And see, you're kind of stuck in this stage of being hesitant to get on the phone and you need to blow right through that stage, get right to the next stage. Okay, now I'm making the calls. Now what do I need to be saying? What's the tone? Okay, cool. It's not as bad as I thought. I'm getting a lot of business out of this. Okay, now I'm gonna keep going. Where's the next stage? Next stage. Don't, please do not get stuck in a stage. Because the quicker you move through those stages, the quicker you're gonna get to the top.   They need you to be on top. So this hesitation part of what you're doing is holding you back so much every day that goes by. And if you just will be numb to whatever the problem is and just bust through it and go from stage to stage to stage, you're gonna get where you wanna be so fast.  I like it. Straight up. I think you hit some nails on the head in there. Very much so. Okay, cool. So go do it. I will. Got to make calls right now. My... I'm running out the door to a workout class. I'll do it after my class though, okay? Five calls. For sure, yeah, make five calls. That's it, five calls. I will do that and I will DM you on Instagram that I've done it. Cool, deal. Okay, deal. We'll talk again. I'm looking for it, bye. Okay, bye-bye. Cool, another good call. Let me know what you think. Stay to the end. I'm gonna pick three people to give these books to. Let's see who my next caller's gonna be. If you want me to call you, just put your phone number in. Let's see, let's see, let's see phone number. Where are you at phone number? I saw one, here we go. Probably gonna call one more person after this. Hey, Sue. Yeah. Ricky Caruth. Hi, Ricky. How are you? I'm good, how are you? Doing good. Doing good. Good. Yeah, so how long have you been following me? Where'd you find me? Well, I found you through. Actually, I was following Cheyenne Lake. Are you familiar with Cheyenne? Cheyenne, I believe so. I remember the name. Yeah, she's out of South Carolina, I believe. Anyhow, she had mentioned you and then I started kinda watching your videos and I just- Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, no, no, Cheyenne Lake. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, now I remember. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And so I started watching your videos and I signed up, I'm just starting the Zero to Diamond program. Okay. So I just kinda need to get re-inspired. Okay, what's the problem? Well, I've been selling real estate for probably about 20 years. You know, I pretty much had a referral-based business. Yeah. Okay. Okay. I live up in like a resort community and so I sell a lot of lake shore, is what I do. And it's just not, you know, I need to do more than what I'm doing other than just referrals. Okay. And I've never been on the phones, I've never done that really, other than maybe some expires and stuff like that, you know. So I guess one question that I have for you is I'm really big on the relationship end of it. But how can you, you sell, you do 100 deals a year. Yeah. How can you have a personal relationship, not a personal, but a, you know, a relationship with your clients and have like 40 clients at a time? Well, I think the best answer is by doing it. Right? By doing it. Yeah. And like you just take it day by day, you know. You just do all you can do to be, to do the best job you can do. And that's all you can do. You can't do anymore. You do as much as you can, you help as many people as you can. And then what comes out the other side is whatever comes out the other side. I think it comes down to your cup. How much can you personally handle? How much business can you handle at one time? Right. See what I'm saying? And so like everybody has a different size cup. You can only handle so much. People can handle a lot less than me. People can handle a lot more than me. And so like, where do you stand in that? And so you have to figure out how big your cup is and then keep your cup full at all times. Maybe you can only handle 10 clients at a time or maybe you can handle 50, right? So wherever that is, it's just where you stay. You just kind of stay right where as much as you can handle where you're pushing it as hard as you can to handle as much as you can at all times. I think that it sounds like your business is more referral based, which is a plateauing business. Whenever you get to where you're just reliving off past clients and referrals, now you're plateauing. You're not adding anything new into your business, right? And this is the way I see it. So like you have to find that balance between past clients and new clients. When you're just focusing on past clients, you're dead. When you're just focusing on new clients, but not the past clients, you're dead. So you got to find the balance to find the exponential growth between handling past clients and new clients and having time for both of those. You have to time block. You have to say, okay, all this stuff is my past client stuff. This is referrals. This is people that need stuff. I'm following up with people that wanna do stuff this and that. They're calling me. They did deals to me last year. They're sending me referrals, all that stuff. But then you get a time block two or three hours, three days a week to prospect for new business. And if you're not doing it, if you're not doing both, if you're not doing old clients and past clients, and then I keep everybody in tune with me and build my personal brand through my weekly email, so that keeps everybody, that's the glue that holds my business together, then I'm able to afford the time to time block to go after new clients and to follow up with all my past clients and so on and so forth. See what I'm saying? So that's your problem is you're not balancing new clients and old clients. Oh, I agree. A hundred percent.  And I'm gonna start doing this circle prospecting. I'm gonna do the 90 day plan because I really like that. The time blocking and all the stuff that you have in this 90 day plan. So I am gonna stick to it. I'm gonna do it because I think it's a good plan. And I think I just need to be more aggressive with phone calls and spend more time doing it because in the past, I never had to be honest with you and I wanna step up my business and I wanna get more done. I think you just need to do three hours, three days a week. That's it. That's nine hours a week. Now you have another 31 hours if you work a 40 hour a week. You have another 31 hours to dedicate towards past clients referrals, weekly email, all the other stuff that you do in your business. You have 75% of your time is spent on that. I'm only asking for 25% of a 40 hour work week to make your calls, to grow your business. Right, exactly, exactly. Well, I wanna tell you about you inspire me and I love watching your videos. I'm excited about the 90 day program and I like to read your books sometimes soon. But just, I just wanna say thank you for everything that you're doing. Absolutely, no, glad to do it. Glad it's helping. Just keep pushing through it. Let me know, shoot me an email whenever you get done with the 90 day action plan so we can get on a one-on-one call and I can really kinda see where you are after the dust settles from the 90 day action plan and that kinda tells me after you go through that and you've been through all that, the trenches of that, then based on your feedback there, I can help you get to the next level, you know what I'm saying? But until somebody goes through the 90 day action plan, it's really hard for me to really figure out where you stand, what you need to be doing, you know what I mean? Until I see somebody go through that, see how they feel about it, see what business they got out of it, see what their long-term vision is for their self. It's hard to coach people that haven't went through the, that's why I'm doing this levels thing so that I can let people go through it and then have the one-on-one calls and see where they really stand, not just talking about it, but actually doing it, you know, and then I can help them get to the next level. Right, right, exactly. Well, I'm excited about it and I will definitely email you after I get to the program and just thank you so much for everything you're doing, rookie. Absolutely, so glad to do it and just reach out anytime and let me know, like I said, when you get through that action plan. I will do that, I will do that. You have a great day.  Okay, one more person, I'm gonna have a phone call, then I'm gonna give away three of these bad boys. I'm gonna sign them and send them to you, so I'll pick three people in the comments after this call. Also, if you guys are just tuning in, Monday I'm gonna have Coach Michael Burke live right here. He spoke at the 10X conference. He's a big-time coach, a lot of energy. It's gonna be really exciting. Also, I have Caleb Maddox, Brian Casella, Joshua Smith, Danny Morrell coming onto the program over the next two or three months, so a lot of cool stuff coming there. Let's find us our last caller here. I have found Matt Armstrong and I am dialing your number, Matt. Boom. Boom. Matt. Yeah, for sure, man. How you doing, brother? I'm gonna be on the air at three o'clock on a Saturday. It's wild, isn't it? It's a little late today. You were talking about fizzbos and expires. I think you've talked before about fizzbos and expires. Yeah, yeah. Full-time job during the day. Yeah. My question is, are you saying like, took a prospect maybe 80% of the time? I think everybody's different, bro. I think if you follow the 98 Action Plan, it hasn't laid out in there. I think there's a pie chart that shows you kind of how I want you to structure that as far as percentages and time spent on the different things. This is what I would say for you. Are you on Red X? What does it give you? What is the one you have give you? Does it give you like geographical leads of a subdivision? Yeah, it's a goal. Got it, got it. Okay, and you're pretty happy with the data? Yes. Okay, good. So what you need to do is, this is what I would do if I were you. I would do one four-hour call session, four five-hour call session once a week. Okay. So are you off on Saturdays? Got a seasonal job going right now. Okay, so you're working today. Are you, when's your day off? Sunday. So you work six days a week on this job? Absolutely. Well, all I'm saying is, man, is you need to get whatever your day off that you have.  Okay. And now one week, we're gonna circle prospect the neighborhood. And within four or five hours, we might have to do two or three neighborhoods. I don't know. Okay, gotcha. Then the next week, I want you to get all the old expires. I want you to get the new expires.  I don't know how far you got to go back. I don't know your market, but you want to get as many of those expires, no matter how old they are. And the next week, I want you to go through all those. And then the next week, I want you to, huh? I need expires. Do you check on the MLS before you call on the JPA? No, no, I can't. I can't, like that holds me back. That clogs up the system.  I'm just here trying to help people. And for me, it's volume. At some point, it has to be about volume. It can't always be quality. It's got to be quantity at some point. If we really want to get ahead, we need volume now.  I'm going to just call and see what I can do to help people. If they're already listed, great. That sounds good. Good luck with it. You got a good agent. I hope you guys crush it, talk to you later. Boom, I'm on to the next one. If I talk to somebody that already sold, they re-listed it and sold. It's been such an old expire that they've already re-listed it and sold to somebody else.  You know, what else can I do for you? What's your plans now? What can I do for you? You know what I mean? Exactly. So I'm not going to worry about all that stuff, man. I'm not going to overthink it. I'm going to get on the phone. I'm going to make stuff happen. So I want you to do circle one week, expires one week for sale owners the next week. Go back to circle and maybe just stick with circle for like five weeks in a row because now we called all the for sale owners. We called all the expires. We don't have any more. Maybe you'll call and maybe one week you're calling circle prospecting and you get through it in three hours. You got through that subdivision. So you know, you got like an hour or two left over that you were going to call for. Let's call the expires that happened this week because we called all of them up to that week last week. But now we got new ones this week. Maybe we call them for an hour. Stay on the phone, man, for like three to five hours once a week and do it on your day off so you can totally focus. And then that way you're not doing it after work when you're tired and all that stuff. Do all your other stuff then.   You can follow up with buyers and sellers during that time, make those kind of phone calls. But for your prospecting time, let's do it on your day off three to five hours. Gotcha, that's a doable plan for sure. And that's the main purpose of it is to be doable. It's to not set ourselves up for failure by saying we want to make calls every day or three days a week when we have a full-time job. We want to do something that is actually doable, realistic and is going to get us to that next level where we can quit our job and do real estate full-time. Okay, dude, I think you know everything you need to know. Yep, I really appreciate the call. Thanks for the advice. I'll be hitting you up on Instagram, so. Let me know, I want to hear about it. All right, thanks for working. Later bud. That's it guys, that was the last call, fixing to give away three books. Had a lot of fun, a lot of really good calls there. A lot of really good nuggets were thrown out from the agents calling me and me to them, them to me and all that good stuff. Let's see, let's see. All right, we're fixing to pick out three people to win these books. I'm gonna sign them and mail them to you, so just stand by for that. And also, if you have certain videos you want me to make, when this, after this video is done, going live, comment under the replay for me. Comment if there's any kind of video ideas that you guys want me to do and I'll do them. Okay, our three winners for the book. Let's see, it looks like Jill Abrams.  But I got Jill Abrams. Congratulations Jill, you just want a book. Let's see who else is gonna be here. Dora, Dora, Dora just want a book. Congratulations, email me your address. Let's see, let's see. Looking for another one, one more, one more. Let's see, Shauna, you win a book. Email me your address. So I got Jill, Dora, Shauna.  Thank you guys so much. Let me know if there's anything I can do for you.  Can't think of anything else.  I've got future guests coming on the program. I'm gonna be in El Paso, Charleston, Minneapolis and Dallas coming up and more cities are coming on the list soon. So stay tuned for that. If you guys aren't part of the free coaching program, go to zero to diamond.com right now and sign up. There's a free course 90 day action plan. You'll start getting my emails with my videos and podcasts and so on and so forth. And if you're getting any value out of anything that I'm doing, please share it with everybody you know. That's how I'm gonna grow. The best is word of mouth and the successes that you guys are having posted on all the Facebook groups. You know, share it with everybody and anything it could do for you, please let me know. Love you guys so much. Talk to you soon.