Google? Okay, so the news on the net neutrality front today, you heard some of it obviously in the headlines, but also Comcast CEO Brian Roberts, while trying to unveil some features that make Xfinity TV service a little more like internet TV, obviously realize that everybody wanted to hear his opinion on net neutrality. So we met it ahead on. Among the things he said was, we've had 20 years of a set of rules that have built, I think, this wonderful world that we all enjoy. I mean, that's true. It's true. Well, yeah, here's the thing. And Robert's actually trying to be positive. He's saying, I agree with all of the principles that President Obama set out. I don't think you want to do it with Title II. And that's what all of these guys are saying is you don't want to think, we don't want to do it with Title II. Problem with all of this debate is that we're debating entirely the wrong things. But Molly, I'm going to let you go first. We're going to get to that. Yeah. How are you feeling about the way this debate is going? I mean, I think it's funny because it is easy in some ways to say, look, this is exactly the same debate that it's been for the 10 years that we've been talking about it, which is can you really trust the companies that stand to make all of the money and that have arguably monopolies in some areas of this country and that have not always been good actors when it comes to their stewardship of this increasingly invaluable resource that being the Internet. So I think from that perspective, the argument really hasn't changed that much, but now it's become much more complicated because the conversation is so much about access to over-the-top video, to TV, to Netflix, to CBS services, to streaming video, to Hulu. And then it's been further confused by all these conversations about interchanges and peering connections and Netflix paying Comcasts for guaranteed service. So it's gotten more confused and weirdly more political than ever, but at the end of the day, I think it still comes down to the simple question of having a really good broadband infrastructure and whether we can trust these guys to build it without all of their sort of like commercial desires getting in the way. Right. And I even would say commercial desires are fine. In fact, commercial desires can spur innovation. That's why we have Netflix. It's not because Reed Hastings had some kind of altruistic need to make House of Cards. It's because he wanted to make a company that would make money, right? And there's no reason that ISPs shouldn't be able to make money. I think that's one of the things that ends up being a problem on these sorts of debates is that you tend to want to break it down as for the people, for the business, right? And then it doesn't need to be broken down that way. In fact, that's not the way it works best on the internet. The way that, from my understanding, transit providers and backbone providers have worked is providing business motivation to interconnection. And I think where it has really broken down, and I've said this a million times, is that the ISPs have gotten too much leverage. The bigger ISPs, the Comcast, the Time Warner's of the world have gotten too much leverage. Now, what do you think of that? I mean, if we were to say like, let's break up the ISPs, I think that'd be going too far. But how do you fix that? Yeah. I mean, the only way that you're ever going to fix that is through competition. And I think we've seen over and over that we do not have a sufficiently competitive landscape. You didn't really even see these guys starting to invest seriously in their networks until pretty recently when they started to realize that they were having significant competition pressures from wireless, from high-speed wireless, and that they couldn't deliver Netflix. I mean, crazily enough, the push to upgrade their infrastructure came from companies like Netflix and from them streaming long-form video content, which they apparently just didn't see coming. But until then, they were busy sort of like creating fiefdoms. I mean, Comcast controls a huge part of the market and is trying to buy Time Warner. Like you just don't have enough legitimate choice in this country and enough legitimate competition. And I actually don't think that wireless is true competition to wired broadband at this point. So they haven't had the right incentive to build out their broadband networks. If they do, if the free market actually worked and they had plenty of competition, then I think we would have broadband networks we'd all be pretty happy with. Right. We had lots of competition in the dial-up era. And in the dial-up era, everybody could use the phone system because it was a common carrier to run their ISP. Then DSL came along and the DSL networks were under Common Carrier, under Title II, forced to unbundle and open up their networks to competitors. What happened was they delayed that. That is when the push for classification of ISPs as information services came. And they, without using regulation, essentially put in really difficult ways of putting in DSL. I remember trying to get DSL installed in 2000 in San Francisco. It was a nightmare because they said, well, if you're using, you can't use that kind of box. You can only use this kind of box. They put in incredible amounts of roadblocks to prevent competition. And since the regulatory agencies were swinging away from Common Carrier anyway, they didn't bother to follow up and try to change the situation. So now you have a situation where the ISPs were entrenched monopolies in their beginnings, right? All of these local telcos were monopolies at one time. All of the cable companies, for the most part, were given monopoly franchises at one time. And they have benefited from that. They also benefit from local regulations. A great article on Wired where it talks about how difficult it is for anyone to come in again, the incumbent.  You face all kinds of local fees.  And those polls are owned by us. Most of these are frivolous and get thrown out of court, but they cost you money. You take up time and money, exactly. Yeah. So essentially, we don't have enough competition. Some people are trying to, I've got five providers. Do you have five providers that provide you 10 megabits per second or more even? Do you definitely don't have five providers that give you gigabit? Most people feel like they don't have more than two choices, and that those two choices are basically not much of a choice. In a lot of places, it's cable, faster internet versus DSL, slow internet. And that's just not a reasonable option. So in my opinion, if you look at that and you say, okay, well, what can we do for competition? There's two ways it's worked elsewhere. In Europe, they unbundled the loop. They said, look, you can't own the infrastructure and be the ISP at the same time. And that has worked. That has worked fairly well. That is not the only way to do it, though. And when we did the special this summer, we found out that in Korea, they just made it easy for people to invest and roll out infrastructure. And so they had five at one time, fiber networks in Seoul, Korea, because the government actually worked the opposite of the way local governments work here. They said, yeah, we'll make it easy for you to run infrastructure. And it's not efficient. They all have their own lines and they all have their own boxes, but they have competition.  We let a monopoly build up all the infrastructure with a lot of government help, sometimes subsidized funds, sometimes just easements.  And they're like, well, we want our taxes. We're not going to make it easy. The incumbent telcos are like, that's right. Don't make it easy for them. Make it really hard. And nobody can break that log jam at the same time. Any kind of regulatory agency that would come in and suggest unbundling is just going to get fire bombed at the national level. Yes, they're going to get creamed. And then the results is that we're now having a conversation about reclassifying the internet as a Title II utility, which is the wrong law to apply. These are rules that were, as we've talked about, not designed for something like the internet. They're just not going to be efficient. They're not going to cover the interconnect and peering agreements that are already sort of the subject of so much controversy. And it's the wrong solution. And it is an over-regulation. I mean, I think you and I probably agree and have been saying for a decade that the worst thing that could happen was that these guys would behave in such a way and such an untrustworthy way that the government would come in and over-regulate the internet. I actually do not think that ideally we would foster enough competition, maybe through subsidies or some sort of specific incentive programs, that what we would get is faster broadband for all and that we would have like a rising tide floats all boats. I feel like there's a part of me that could be arguing for some kind of a trickle-down thing, and that makes me uncomfortable, but you know what I mean. Which is that ultimately we don't need, we don't want a bunch of government regulation that will not help the internet. It will not, I agree. Unless it is like a new law, a new set of rules that are crafted specifically for this very unique entity. And that what we really need is just faster broadband because we also don't need fast lanes if we just have faster broadband. That doesn't affect traffic shaping. Like traffic shaping and prioritizing video and prioritizing emergency channels, none of that has to be in violation of the spirit of net neutrality. It isn't, right? Net neutrality doesn't say that you have to treat every packet equally and that you have to deliver them equally. It says that you have to treat all the content equally and not favor one over the other and not charge smaller companies and essentially attacks to get on to the internet and make it prohibitive for them to do so in an unfair way. So all we want is faster broadband and then it will work fine for everybody. It will. Now a lot of people say, oh yeah, Brian Roberts was one of them. We've had 20 years of a set of rules that have built a wonderful world. The thing is, it's not a horrible world, right? And that's where the people have started to divide up into camps. You're wrong and you're wrong. It's a disaster. Well, it's not a disaster. So it's easy for the other side to say, no, it's not a disaster. We have, you know, 50 megabit per second internet available in lots of places. But there was the new America survey that came out in June that looked at all of the top 24 cities for broadband, some in the US, some not. And they determined that the United States pretty much pays more for slower internet than the rest of the world. Highest ranked city was Seoul with a private ISP. Number two are actually tied for number one, Hong Kong with a private ISP, Tokyo with a private ISP. You know who else was up there? Chattanooga with a municipal ISP, Kansas City, Google Fiber, Lafayette with a municipal ISP, then you get Zurich, then you get Bristol, Virginia with a municipal ISP. So why is it that the rest of the world, these so-called socialist countries are having private ISPs, give them the fastest broadband? We're here in the United States where we have open enterprise and we've had 20 years of wonderful rules. Only the government run stuff is giving you the good broadband at the right price. That's not right. That's not the way it's supposed to work. And then all the ISPs are going after all the municipal laws saying, well, we can't actually compete with them. So let's just pass laws to make them illegal. To make them illegal, to make municipal broadband illegal. Exactly. I mean, it's just a bizarre situation when you think about it and it is exactly what happens when you don't have competition. And so every conversation that this comes down to has to include the competition element. You have to make that a crucial part of the plan because otherwise you will just continue to regulate virtual monopolies. And I don't think that we are to the point yet where, like I said, where wireless can be considered that competition. And so to me, that's a straw man. They still charge so much for access that to use a wireless hot spot as your full-time data connection is absurd. Yeah. And you and I were talking on the phone yesterday and I don't want to try to pretend like this is a new idea. But we were both saying, really the solution is new legislation, right? Title two isn't right because it's meant for phone.  Title one is also right, not right, because the internet is more than just an information service. And it's, that was not meant for the internet either. Let's actually create a title that governs internet and let's do it right. That is politically impossible right now, unfortunately. It is. I mean, I don't necessarily, I have zero faith that such a law could be written in a way that would be palatable to anybody. I guess my question is, what would that law say? I mean, so what are the parts that need to be governed? Because realistically, I can't believe I'm going to argue this, but realistically, if we had sufficient competition, would there be a need for strong net neutrality regulation? Because in a scenario where companies and consumers can choose alternatives, except then do you get like balkanized internet service where some companies say, I'm not going to be available on Comcast because they want to charge too much for a fast lane prioritization? I don't know. I mean, would it obviate the need for a net neutrality regulation if we didn't have to worry about somebody messing with packet delivery? Here's where I think the ISPs are making a good argument. They keep saying, look, there haven't been any violations. And you can argue there have in a couple of specific cases. But for the most part, there haven't been. And on the backbone side, there haven't been. There have been like nasty business negotiations recently, because the ISPs are getting more leverage than they've ever had before. But I would argue that, yes, when we've actually had competition, no one was talking about net neutrality as anything of interest. So how do you get the competition is the thing I've been struggling with? And I haven't come up with an answer until today. And I'm not saying it's the answer. But the first thing that finally I looked at and said, wait, that could work is take away all of these local rules that make it difficult to roll out. You don't even have to use subsidies. If you want openness, go open the infrastructure, open the municipalities for anyone to be able to roll out. The city votes and decides it wants to build its own great, let that city do it. If a city wants to say, you know what, we're going to really lower the the bureaucratic barriers, we're going to lower the fees, which is a kind of a subsidy, but we're going to we're going to lower the fees and we're going to make it simple.  But open the access to the ground. That is I read over and over today when I was looking through this, that is what every person who has tried to build an open free enterprise ISP has run into is permits, construction crews, restrictions on equipment, purchasing capacity from transit providers. It's it's expensive, but it doesn't all have to be expensive. And if you can make it easier, say, you know what, we're going to open our municipality for people. Google has done us a favor by showing it can happen because what they did is they said, look, we're a 500 pound gorilla. So we're going to get the municipality to give us a break. And they did it in Kansas City and they did it in Austin. What happened in Austin when they got the municipality to ease the restrictions? All of a sudden AT&T and I think it's century link started rolling out gigabit five or two. Right, absolutely. I mean, that makes perfect sense. And it reminds me of this great Ted talk I watched that was about on the topic of the city state, right? It said, like, we need to stop talking about solutions at the national or E or certainly at the but even at the national level and start talking about solution building at the sort of city state level, like cities mayors are the people who have the power to actually make change that can kind of sweep across. And so it makes a lot of sense that if you say at the smaller because what you're talking about is a version of the last mile problem. Like, you can even build a pretty fast wireless network, but you still might have a last mile concern. And so it makes perfect sense that if you're a and if you're able to ease the base to competition on a city by city basis, that you could kind of dig the ground out from under these big telcos. Yeah, literally. What do we do here? How do we? Yeah, exactly. Literally. So how do we like write this up and like make everyone do that because I'm afraid they're going to screw it up. Like I am actually now kind of weirdly now I'm worried that they're going to classify it as a title to and it's going to be like it's going to be like a mess. Well, and thing is if they classified as title to it won't be more of a mess than it is now. It'll just be a different mess in lots of different ways. It's it's not going to solve the problem at all. I don't think it's going to be a disaster though. It's just it's just more muck. And I want to get us out of the muck. Right. Exactly. Like go the Google route, right? Just come around the back side with fiber. That's the next question. That's the perfect next question is how do you open up localities so that more people can build ISPs? What do you do? You can campaign on your local level and actually have a much better chance of swaying somebody, but it's still not guaranteed.  I don't know if that's a good idea. Maybe it's not. That's that's certainly the most expedient right and probably the most efficient in terms of a large scale because otherwise you'll just have those the entrenched monopolies dig in further in the places where they have all the control. Because I do think fundamentally the conversation about net neutrality comes down to trying to protect the internet from bad actors and behaviors that are so financially motivated, right? Like this is what would separate some monopoly from a good business is when the financially motivated behaviors start to be anti competitive. It's out of proportion. Yeah. It's out of proportion. Exactly. Nobody's saying that businesses shouldn't be able to make money. What we're saying is that there should be enough of you competing that we start to have that consumer, that fundamental consumer level trust that we know you're not going to try to screw us because you can't screw me because I can go to somebody else. Yeah. We do not have that on a broad scale now. And that's why we're worried about things like that's why we're worried about bad actors, bad behavior about about money grubby, basically, for lack of a and if you have sufficient competition, I think you could make an argument that you don't need net neutrality regulation. Yeah, I think you're right. I mean, I would be great. The only thing that I can think of that's an objection to this is people saying, Oh, but, you know, this is taking away the natural way business is gone. Comcast has has worked hard and invested to get where they are today. Why take that away from them? Why have the state take that away from them? And the lie is that, yeah, Comcast, AT&T, Verizon, none of them got where they are today with open competition. They all started with government intervention, giving them an advantage. Exactly. And even if that were the case, companies still become anti competitive monopolies and get in trouble for it when they overreach, see Microsoft, see the train, you know, the train companies like monopolies can still come into being. And that's why we have regulation in the first place and unregulated business, completely unregulated business hasn't always produced bad actors. Yeah. Like otherwise, we wouldn't have business regulation in the first place. So I think I think some light net neutrality guidelines are perfectly reasonable. I don't think section 706 gives you the right way to do it. I don't think title two gives you the right way to do it. But even if you can find the right way to do it there, it's not going to solve the problem. The lie that Netflix and the telcos and the ISPs want you to believe is that the government can fix this. What they want is that they continue to allow the status quo to happen so that no one can compete with them because they have these natural advantages that are almost unassailable. And then you make the, I mean, we need to make the point over and over that the reason they have those advantages is because we helped them pay for that with our money. They were given that step up. That was not, yeah. And we've come along, we have come a long way in some ways from the 10-year-old argument about conflict of interest. Like we, that did not materialize. Thank goodness that Comcast prioritized its own internet TV services over Netflix. And you have people getting into the online video delivery space every day, right? And they are all counting on this infrastructure to be able to deliver the product that they are investing heavily in. So they obviously believe that it's going to be okay on some level or that they're not going to be throttled in an unfair way. So I think ultimately all it comes down to is infrastructure and competition. And let me tell you, folks, as soon as you start to feel that any of these arguments are against your side, you've stopped thinking productively. This is not a one side or another issue unless you're a large company trying to protect your current profit margins. This is not a Republican issue. It's not a Democratic issue. It is an internet issue. It's about internet management.  Oh, you're the best, Tom. I love that you think that that could happen. Like people split into right and wrong over a friggin' teabags, dude. Like we can't work together. Do green tea or black tea? How about this? Don't argue with anybody about this on the internet and then maybe you can continue. That's the way about it.


Okay. I think we can start. So welcome, welcome everybody to this event celebrating science. It's organized jointly with the host, the organization of women in science for development and we have Tonya the coordinator of the program here with us, she will actually lead the event. I'm from the ICTP unfortunately the director of ICTP is not interested these days otherwise he will be here welcoming you. So the day international day of girls and women in science was established not so long ago was established in 2015 by the UN General Assembly to recognize the critical role of women and girls and the role they play in science and technology. We are part of UNESCO, and we are all part of UNESCO here also nice to be as well as with the UN women organization. It's a day. It's an opportunity to promote full and equal access to and participation in science for women and girls especially basic sciences here we are in theoretical physics Institute and basic science of course the problem is even more serious than in other branches of science. So of course, gender equality is a global priority also for ICTP. We would like to support women scientists and especially early career researchers female researchers, especially to make sure they have the full ability to make their ideas heard different levels, which we believe is crucial not only for science itself, but also for development and peace globally, of course. Now, statistic will I guess we'll hear a lot about statistics on regarding gender balance in in sciences but of course I guess you all know I mean we're talking about 30% of women in science worldwide. So even more of concern is the fact that this 30% is not an average across all the, the, the age levels, I mean the seniority levels of course students, there are more students probably close to 50% and at the top of the career normally percentage or even smaller. I think about 10% here at the ICTP for example I think we have a poor Erica, I think for senior scientists scientists permanent scientists women scientists out of about 40, 40 staff members. So we're talking also about leaky pipelines the fact that we miss I mean some of the women lead their career as scientists and this is really something that concerns all of us concerns all of us. So tackling some of the greatest challenges in, in especially in the basic sciences like physics and mathematics, really, you know requires harnessing all possible talent. Right. I mean, I guess if we, if we accept the fact that great matter is equally distributed among all of us I mean we're essentially practice exploiting only a little bit more than half of the potential we have in the world. Not just that of course diversity brings in new, you know fresh ideas, fresh concepts and new approaches new views to, to science including basic science I think, I think it was Abdul Salam who said once that if it wasn't for the invention of jazz by a small community of underrepresented community in the US that we will still probably be playing classical music we wouldn't have more than music as we have it today. Right. So, so these days really reminded that women and girls play a critical role in science technology communities and that participation should be, should be strengthened. I'm very glad to see many women in the audience. I don't really see too many men, I have to say, and I think this is a problem that this is a problem because it's, if it is true it is a sad truth that men, well, I'm sorry, I was looking at the it is true it's a sad truth that men hold the power, especially in science is also true that these power can be used to change things the status quo. So I would like I really wish that more men were aware of what needs to be done and what must be done to enhance and improve the participation of women in science. And with this, I'd like to leave the floor to Erica and Tonya. Thank you. Hello, I am Erica Coppola and I work here in ICTP I am a research scientist, but I also am the gender focal point for ICTP because under the UNESCO umbrella, each of the institute is required to have a gender focal point. That is that point that up to try to collect all the issue initiative, good and bad for gender equality and try to be a little bit. Yeah, the up of this institute. So as ICTP is an international center we fully mirror the international situation so we have few female in ICTP as Sandra said and as we observe in the rest of the words, the number are decreasing when we increase the seniority in the career. So we pay a lot of attention since 15, 20 years we started to pay a lot of attention to this and try to apply some unwritten rule in any of the program that we have. We try to improve the number of students, the female student also encourage the PhD, the postdoc, but what we see is that although the number are improving than the number of women that are after the PhD staying in science are decreasing as we go to the higher level, so the managerial level, the high level of research that is worse. As Sandra said before we are now for permanent staff, but we are forcing very recent because for many years we have been just one of two. And as you can imagine it's not easy to work in a only man environment. So this was the reason why we put a lot of action as an institute to improve this situation. So from this year we also have in place a gender equality plan in agreement with the UNESCO. We have a there is something officially written in which we give ourselves the guideline how to promote the gender equality in our institute. This is a very important stuff because the gender equality plan is required to access any for example funds for research at the European international level, but also at the national level. So we finally keep this result that is very important. And yeah, we try to organize events like this one like when the events dedicated to raise the awareness we collaborate with host in all the initiative they have around the world. But we also have a specific activity that is repeated a couple of years in a city but eventually also outside in the associated center of a city P. That is a work or workshop for women in science. This workshop was initiated. Now already 10 years ago 11 years ago, and the name of the workshop is really to bring together these different community from all around the world, specifically from developing country to discuss about the problem but also to act about this so we have some scientific session during the workshop in which we try to improve the way in which a woman present herself in the scientific, in the scientific arena, but also there are some part of the workshop in which we work together to try to come up with a common thought a common solution and also not to feel alone so the aim of the workers is also to show to everybody that the problem are the same almost everywhere and so that the common action is needed. And thank you for being here and I hope this will be useful for all of you this colloquium and the rest of the day. Thank you, Erica. Thank you, Sandra. So just want to say something about the audience because for those of us who are here at ICTP right now. It looks like there's lots of empty spaces but I can see that online we've got 91 participants so that's really fantastic. And maybe those of you who are online can write down where you're from and also maybe if you have a connection with those or with ICTP let us know why you're here. So if you're interested, I'd also like to say that I did a quick count and it's just under a third of the people here are men. It's true that four of them are technicians and however, that's not bad. That's not bad to given the overall percentage which is around about 33% of women globally are involved in science. And the other thing I wanted to say was in the audience I've already spotted people visiting from different institutes so can see from CSER from ICGB, from ELECTRA, SYNCHROTRONA. I think we have some diploma students here. We have some host staff come over here so yeah it's a great audience to talk about what women scientists, especially from developing countries need and also what to celebrate today which is the day before the International Day of Women and Girls in Science. I'm the coordinator of the Organization for Women in Science the Developing World and we've been working for 30 years, this is our 30th anniversary this year to try and bring more women from developing countries to the table if you like of science so that they can have more involvement in the decision making processes, the design of science, the use of science and the implementation of science. There are over 9000 OASED members throughout the world right now. Those members are based in the global south and they have postgraduate degrees in science and social science subjects. There are more than 20 members in any country they can establish what we call an OASED national chapter and for any of those of you who are interested in participating in a discussion after refreshments around about four o'clock. We're coming back in here, oops sorry, we're coming back in here to have a conversation about what the very first OASED national chapter in the global north might look like and what purpose it might serve and we would love especially the participation of diploma students to help us understand what that might look like. So please all of you are invited and very welcome. What does this next hour or so look like? We're going to start off with a couple of very short films. First one, both of these films have been created and filmed by Nicole Ligisa who is down there at the end of the table. And Nicole is Triestein Doc, or do you say Doc? I never know. Doc, Triestein Doc and she's been making the most amazing films for ICTP, for TOAS, for ICGB and for OASED for many years now and so we're going to show two films which really talk about the kinds of activities that ICGB and OASED have created to try and change the situation. And then after that, it's just over to you for a discussion really and we'll be talking to the panellists. Also, we have here Benaz, who is visiting from Iran and she's going to be telling us a little bit about her personal story as a woman in science and the challenges and the achievements that she has faced and made possible. Basically, that's basically an overview of the day. But before we do that, let me see if I've got this right, I don't know if you saw outside so there's been some activities happening in the few days leading up to today, and there's been a blackboard outside and there's posters up outside. So if you're looking for your contributions to write down your comments in response to some questions, no, no, no. It's the one with the PowerPoint. So these were the questions that we asked. And these posters are still up outside. And the idea is you just put your answer and put some comments on posters but we just photograph the ones that have already come in. Please feel free to add more afterwards. The first one was what advice would you give to a young girl interested in studying science. So might want to have a think about that one here is just one answer.  Second question was tell us about the biggest challenge that you have faced in your career as a scientist. And we have harassment and gender bias. Being a wife and mother in addition to a successful scientist. Struggling to form groups, and I'm struggling to read sorry. I just don't quite work for this. Oh, there we are. Something behavior condescending behavior of male colleagues. And that one unstable. unstable and frequent moving unstable job unstable job unstable job and frequent moving. So the first thing you remember that made you interested in science. Reading a popular physics book about the universe. A university professor who came to my high school to show the world of science and the physics course of the women scientists you know what has helped them participate in science. This is a passion number one opportunity for women, for instance, at ICTP scholarships for scientific women from developing countries and childcare. Okay, and why is gender balance important for science. This is really the crucial question I think to read male domination and bring equality in gender to encourage upcoming generations, and for a better society. And I think Sandra also addressed that really well in his introductory remarks about the need for diversity and participation, so that we know that the problems we're identifying are relevant to as broad a population as possible, and that the solutions can be implemented as Okay, so I think we'll go over now to the first film, which is a film about China, and then we will have a trailer, which is going to describe the host visions project which is a very special project which we hope you'll understand from the trailer. But you can ask questions of course afterwards and then straight after the trailer we'll see one of these host visions films which stars. Some of you may know she's a visitor to ICTP, she's worked with some of you here and her story. She's now a government advisor in Congo, Brazil. We're starting with this one. Xinjiang is an isolated area of northwest China, mainly inhabited by the Uighur population. During a visit in 1988, Abdul Salam, accompanied by Professor Jha as his interpreter, became aware of this, and ever since then, ICTP has fostered support for young talented Uighurs. It was the last year of primary school and one teacher came, a new teacher. Sorry, a little problem. Xinjiang is an isolated area of northwest China, mainly inhabited by the Uighur population. During a visit in 1988, Abdul Salam, accompanied by Professor Jha as his interpreter, became aware of this, and ever since then, ICTP has fostered support for young talented Uighurs. It was the last year of primary school and one teacher came, a new teacher. And she asked us to read the book, but nobody can read, and I was a monitor of the class, our class, and she asked me, please read, I can't read. She was surprised, why you can't read?  Yes, we are, but nobody taught us to read. It is hard for most young Uighurs to achieve higher education, but Professor Dulat succeeded. I am Saif Chamoudulat from Xinjiang University. I am doing both teaching and research works in theoretical physics. Also seen as 2012, I am doing collaborative research with the CDEC group in Michigan State University, mainly doing global data analysis, which is very important to understand quantum chromodynamics. There is a deep bond of mutual appreciation between Saif Jamal and Professor Jha, her first physics teacher at university. He is the first person who leads me into the physics, and I never talked to any hand teacher before, and we really surprised that because of him I and other students were able to go for further education. Last year of my graduate study, one of my colleagues asked me, do we go for PhD study? And I said, no, I don't, and he said, why? Because I found it difficult finding the articles, finding the textbooks, but after one year later, Professor Jha gave me the application form for studying at ISTP. Having a chance to study at ISTP is the most important part of my study life, and it is a really important turning point. It gave me confidence, it gave me a chance for going further education, for becoming a scientist, and becoming a good teacher and researcher at my university. This is the outcome of the ISTP diploma study. Today, Professor Doulat is the contact point between the Uighur students and ICTP. Even though it's not sure about me to go to ISTP this year or not, but I think it's a success for me. Every time I had faced any problems, and I can remember my teachers, I can remember my supervisor, Professor Doulat, and I can encourage me. It pushes me to study hard, work hard. We need to move toward renewable energy in order to stabilize our economy. Even the people, this knowledge, because in my project, I want to say it's a program that will blow up the... I should result in a new mission, in the smoking profession. It's really rich in energy resources. The most powerful river in Africa, Congo, is still lacking energy supply for all the population. We need to move toward renewable energy in order to stabilize our economy and, of course, impact the development of our country. I'm Dr. Marie-Sancroix from Congo, Brazzaville. I'm a lecturer in physics and lab manager to research laboratory. I'm an experimental physicist researcher. My PhD work was mostly based on surface characterization using advanced electronic microscopes. Today, I'm still working on this field, but when I decided to come back in Congo, I shifted a little bit my research interest, so now I'm still an experimental physicist but working in material science and in energy. We are working to develop hybrid systems from different renewable energy resources, like biomass and solar panels. We focus on two types of biomass, the one called algea and ledermagnol. And those kinds of biomass are found in the Congo river. The choice of those biomass is also based on the fact that they can easily be put into artificial culture and this will definitely solve the issue of algalapagoon from the Congo river. So, because we have this problem in our river and this is in order to provide affordable and clean energy distribution to Congolese community. It was really a struggle at the beginning because you know that if you would like to do practical work you need to have equipment. So, I knew that since I came back home, so I knew that I would have a problem of equipment but I wanted to have this challenge on me. The OWSD has really helped me a lot on my research career. While I was implementing the project, it has helped me on building a team because I was able to pay my student, I was able to pay my collaborator and also I was able to pay some time child care when it was needed. And also you get a kind of credibility to the international community. I believe in the place where in Congo we will be using research to develop ourselves. We will be using research to help our country grow. So, when we finish our project, we didn't stop there, okay, we found everything, we wrote paper and that's it. No, we use our design to bring it to Bamu Island because there the clinic does not have any electricity. So, we provide them with electricity. We provide them not only the clinic but also the school. We provide electricity to the police station and for me it was more than the joy to see people using affordable and clean energy electricity. Now they are sure they will not go across Brazzaville in order to have some vaccine or to have some medicine. Children could read during the night with the electricity and this is just a win-win for me. And this is where I always say to people that the research is not only for the laboratory but it's to be used also for the population and see people enjoying that. And this is why my team and I are really working very hard to let not only our government to understand the importance of research, how it could impact on the development of the country. But we will not stop there, we will collaborate not only back home but we collaborate with other African countries in order to understand that something could be done not only in Europe or in USA but something could be done also back home, back in our country, back in Africa, back in our land and it's possible. Until now I'm the only feminist lecturer in the Republic of Congo. I need to be a leader for other women and I need to be another leader for other young girls who would like to work on the field of STEM. So this is for me. I could not stop there. I always use my passion in order to do better and to continue to do better. Just to give you an idea of the challenges and some of the solutions. Now I'm going to ask Benaz if she would like to perhaps respond to the films and also tell us a bit about her own personal journey. Welcome. Thank you for giving me this chance and it's an honour for me to be here. I am Benaz Aposfoli. I am from Iran. I am a postdoc, ICTP Electra Tril Fellowship and now I am working in the Nano Innovation Lab under supervision of Professor Lerdana Kazalis. And first I want to speak about these two nice movies. Okay. It's really two things for me was I experienced these two things. One was when you want to establish your way it's important someone to believe you and to give you this chance to start. If people doesn't give you this chance and you cannot however you want, however you love your job, you cannot and depends on where are you living, depends on if you are living in developing countries it will be hard because the facilities are limited. And another thing is this that there is also, okay you establish your way but also as you see you need a man or so other people help you. It's not only you go ahead and this is something that we need some support from men for women. And I hope this will happen and we will see increasing the number of such brave women. Of course in both videos I saw also men beside these women so without them it's not possible. Coming to my story for me ICTP was exactly an institute that believe me and it's for this believing students are coming there to believe what they are bringing, what they are thinking then believe that they are creative they can create something and ICTP did for me exactly this and also my supervisor in ICTP and also at Eletra. My story comes back to 2019 and exactly at the beginning of the COVID situation and I was doing my last year of PhD and as all of you know this year is very important you are dealing with a lot of problems and I have to mention that my major is a little bit complicated because it's a mix of the physics and chemistry and also optics, mainly optics and in this field in Iran is very narrow and you have a lot of lack of facilities and when I was dealing with the problems I through a research gate I found papers published by ICTP by Prof. Dr. Cabrera and then I realised that ICTP in ICTP he's not only working for himself he's teaching students they came ICTP through a program and they are trained and it was really amazing for me that time unfortunately I couldn't apply because of the COVID but later I could manage finally my PhD thesis and through email with ICTP and Dr. Cabrera and I was successful to publish three papers and then after that I applied for the because I wanted to grow in this field I did a lot for this field and I had a lot of ideas but no one believed me and there was a lot of... if there is a lack of facility it's hard to believe you and then I applied for ICTP through a program and I came here exactly for three months including 14 days in quarantine because of the COVID still there was not a vaccine but really I was supported with ICTP and I worked... I mastered all theoretical all experimental parts of my field that I wanted to grow in it and I could also not only... okay, I trained but also I contributed to this optic program at ICTP and with Dr. Cabrera we were successful to implement with his expertise and with my idea that I couldn't do in my PhD a system we implemented this system and amazingly this is the same happened for me when you published the paper as I did during three months I published three papers but you published the paper but still you want to use this you want to see is work this method, this technique applied is applying and I had this chance to visit Eletra to visit in an innovation laboratory which is lead by Dr. Kazalis and also when I come back in Iran I had this wish to continue my work because I want to see how is work this method and then I applied again for this trial postdoc and now I am doing this non-innovation lab and exactly now I am in very good environment collaborative environment is like this program is like a bridge between Eletra and ICTP you are using some facilities from ICTP you are also under umbrella of ICTP and also you are taking advantage of different laboratories at Eletra and all of this exactly was something that I wanted and I can tell that this three months was something that changed whole my life I can tell during these three months that everybody because of COVID not only in Iran everybody didn't have hope these three months changed my life and I changed the way and I am not now here thank you for the group that I am working with them at Eletra and also thank you Dr. Cabrera, thank you Dr. Professor Niemella and this is my story I hope other women also can find this two important thing that a man can be with her and believe other people believe her and go ahead this was my thank you thank you so much Benaz so I see that we've got lots of messages coming in the chat and we've got 109 people online as well just to let people know do write your comments do write your questions I'm going to just quickly ask the panel members to introduce themselves and then we'll go straight to the audience for some comments and then we'll try and also include some questions and comments from the online participants who have introduced themselves Benaz has introduced herself Payal, would you like to just say a little bit about who you are and what's your involvement in women in science? Thank you Tonya Hello everyone, my name is Payal Patel and I am the Associate Program Officer at TWAS in the Capacity Building Unit I am not a scientist as per se but I work on designing or co-designing as I may say capacity building programs for scientists in the developing world TWAS is very much aware of we don't consider ourselves to be gender transformative we are very clear on that we have our colleagues that own who do a very good job about that we try to be gender empowering our programs tend to have a very strong lens on gender we recently created a program that pushes PIs, one male and one female to come together write a research proposal together and work together to ensure that there is not one above or below either of them they're both equally committed to the project and they work together on the project other elements of new programs we have are designing components that are specifically related to women scientists one of them that we call the scientist of the child scheme this is specifically for women scientists that allows them to request funding in the time where their child is either under two years of age or they are pregnant or during the time of the application and this is something that we have been taking very seriously but gender remains a problem yesterday we were meeting with our partners in Germany from the German ministry and they were very frank and honest about the fact that Germany is lagging behind when it comes to professors at their universities so this is something that is an issue worldwide and not just in the developing world so I hope to hear more questions and maybe be able to answer some of them thank you Tony Hello my name is Nicole I'm a filmmaker and director and I was very emotional looking at the video I did many years ago with Saïd Jamal in Xinjiang and I think I started to work for telling stories of the scientists from developing countries at the ICTP because I strongly wanted it and I proposed myself like a please I want to do this and I remember it was really like a dream for me to start and now I'm here in this panel and so gender is an issue also for filmmakers you wouldn't believe it but the number of women directors and women filmmakers is very low so I think it's important to stay in front of cameras but also to stay behind because of course women directors and filmmakers choose different subjects and also design characters in a different way maybe we can if you're curious we can go a little bit deeper into this subject after and so thank you for your attention thank you Nicole so I have three basic questions for the panelists before we go to the panel I think it would be great to see if any of you have any comments or questions on what you've heard so far anybody in the audience yes thank you very much for all of this I have a question to Benas so what are your future plans and particularly so I assume you want to continue in science and do you see yourself in Europe do you see yourself in the future maybe even in back in Iran and for all this future what do you think do you need to be able to do what you would like to do good question I don't know yes working okay for me it's like this but I don't know I don't want to tell this like this when you do you start a work in a laboratory in a field you want still to master and but there is a time that you see there is nothing more for you and you know everything and then you okay you plan for the next next step for me now okay that's three months I implement that method but now I am happy to try to see how it is work and how still I am dealing with this when now my plan is to master as much as possible this field and this at least this method and to improve this but when it comes the time I cannot master more I will at that time I have to decide of course I would like to help of course my people from my country and I am from Iran and of course is correct thank you Benaz any other questions from the audience or any comments from the panelists at this point okay we have some questions from the participants online that Julia is going to read out yes so Deborah Josey Tutu from Ghana is asking to the panelists what do you do when you have very little support from family to pursue your career in science and if any of the panelists would like to answer I've been told it's best if you can come and sit here because then it means that online participants can see you they're working in the studio upstairs that means they can't see the panelists online right now does anybody want to try and answer that question or anybody in the audience want to answer that question we don't have any responses to that question have you got another question Julia Yes Amanda Ezerim I don't know where she's from she didn't state that but she's asking a very interesting question how can one convince uneducated mothers in largely educated communities who are very reluctant to allow the yarn daughters of secondary school age to explore scientific careers can you say that again? how can we convince uneducated mothers who are very reluctant to allow the yarn daughters of secondary school age to explore scientific careers can I answer oh please do yes I am Vijay Akhagar from India see this is the biggest problem especially when you want to talk about the gender equality and improve the status of the woman especially in the society so the simpler way is how to really convince the mothers especially in the village level or the illiterate woman through sort of the simpler messages or giving some sort of the success stories to encourage their daughters to join in the science in earlier days especially the enrollment of the woman in the professional courses is really going on but only in the basic sciences it started reducing nothing but it's a sort of the communicating a sort of the simpler messages how it is going to be benefited in the future life of an anger that is what everybody's responsibility we have to really how to do it that is a big question mark of course it varies from place to place reason to reason and so this is what we have to because those far in the profession to convince the illiterate mother it is a sort of what are the different channels we have to use it mainly to communicate our message how it will be useful to the young girl in the future life that is the most important because we know very well when you talk about in India the situation is quite different because we have got the 30% of the reservation at every level even starting with the political education and the scientific research and everything we have got a sort of the 30% reservations for the woman so it is even then also we find it because when you use the word the female is coming up in the higher level ways it is very difficult you have to really cross over three steps and I am the dean of the faculty of home size from the University I have done a lot of work especially to improve the nutritional status of the vulnerable group of the population that is mainly the preschool children women and lactating mothers especially at the community level it takes a lot of effort to achieve any of the good unless you work with a holistic approach with commitment idea and it is an inter-collaborate work because you cannot work isolation it is very very important that is mainly lacking in our system I can easily say this is from my side I can just talk about it thank you very much for giving me this opportunity Thank you Thank you Vijay, thank you very much for your contribution and now just turn to the panellists so the title of this event is quite provocative in a way it is where are the women in science and for me it is an excellent question because it is both a geographical question as well as a data question so just hand that question over to the panellists and see if anybody would like to answer Good evening I think I am not one of the panellists I am Dr. Kim Vaipay right I think my video is not been allowed to be shown I am also from India I am based basically in Sandigarh that is the northern part I just retired as professor from a big teaching university I am a pathologist you know I was just thinking very I am going to think very loudly I have been in academic front for the last 40 years and are we dealing when just encouraging somebody at the higher level doing their PhD how much is going to help the whole society are we planning to work on like heavy bottom or top heavy so I think it would be better if we try and concentrate with the broader base like try to work at the family levels like encourage the mother to support their daughters that means they have to come down just not only in encouraging people to do their high level of study I myself am very educated I have been teaching post graduate students so I know what it is really like to be involved in a higher level education but on the whole if you want to really talk about a society or community to get improved we have to have something which is very broad base so I think the approach possibly I think we have been doing very fantastic work making many people to get acquired their higher education but I think we should also pay attention to the baseline to the family levels so that mothers the societies should encourage their daughters just not only daughters I think for to grow any community you have to educate everybody not selectively only the daughters even boys they have to be taught they have to be taught how to behave properly with the girls and the females and the ladies the others so I think we have to try and have very broader outlook just not only encouraging people to carry out their studies at the higher level definitely we should continue with that very very good fantastic program but also I think we should have very broader outlook should make you know kind of broader heavy thank you very much thank you so much for your contribution so I'm going to go back to the panel now and ask the question again does anybody like to answer that question where are the women in science Erica come up to the podium so I think this is a very supportive question but I think the answer can also be provocative because we are all here around you it's just you that don't see us we are somehow transparent and the reason why we are transparent is because we have this stereotype in mind and when we need to choose a woman we need really to chase this woman because it's not the statistic is not on our side we are obviously less of a way to look and find what we want so if we are like for example evaluating for any of the position and we have a panel in this panel very very likely there is very few time there is a woman that is acting and then if we don't change the way in which we evaluate and we score the candidate that of course this is never going to be changed so we really have to think on how can we adapt the way in which select the people if we can we take into account about the probability distribution of the candidate that we are in front of us just based on gender these things has to be taught and we have to agree that it's needed if we want to become visible to everybody thank you okay anybody else want to comment on that okay any more comments in the room on that question okay then a really important question putting out to everybody the panellists in particular what happens or what changes when women are included in science why should we be bothered about the lack of women in science why is women's contribution important so thank you yes I think this is this is a very important question I guess I provided some of the answers to my presentation at the beginning however I mean I think there is a fundamental problem which is the fact that seen from the eyes of society I think it's quite clear that we need more women top positions we need to empower women but seen from the eyes of a scientist this is I have to say less obvious because science is evaluated primarily in terms of scientific output results and sometimes we tend to forget that behind the scientific result there is a process that leads to that and we try to focus we tend to focus entirely on the results and to a large extent we forget that there is a process that is very complex behind it so when we also recognize I'm thinking of the Nobel Prize for example we're all aware of the fact that there are now three women four women who got the Nobel Prize in physics and the entire history of the Nobel Prize this is because we focus primarily on the results of the scientific research and we don't look at the process if we were able to look a little bit more into the details of how research is done is conducted I think we might be in a position to understand better and fortunately of course scientists are fully aware of the way this process is done and I personally believe for example that aspects like mentorship are extremely important to make sure we women are more visible I think it's a lot of responsibilities that we men have for example in encouraging we men have been encouraging women to do research well especially from ICTP I guess this is something we feel very strongly we also just say it's actually quite it's the first time I guess that I'm in a panel where all the members are the only men in the panel and there's a psychological aspect which I never realized and which must actually be very familiar to all of you women colleagues I mean when you are at the conference the probability that you're sitting in a panel with men all men is quite high and I'm actually realizing now what it means in practice so this is my own personal take on this so thank you thank you Sandra anybody want to comment on what Sandra said the process that's interesting and not the focus on the process rather than the product does that suggest though that what women scientists produce is not as excellent as male scientists I'm saying I mean precisely that I mean the result is a consequence of the process we shouldn't be looking at the process we should be looking at the result we should be looking at how this is produced for example if we have more women perhaps the results could be different as I mentioned before we wouldn't have jazz if it was for an underrepresented group of people it's a self fulfilling prophecy yeah it's also of course a question about the notion of scientific excellence in the first place how do we measure excellence and is that a kind of male dominated sphere of what excellence looks like and typically that looks like a chronological career it has done traditionally of course that's been changing now but you know obviously women tend to have lots of gaps in their careers they tend to have meandering journeys rather than straight journeys take time out and I think it's really important that we start seeing that as a contribution to science rather than a problem that we have to apologize for so instead of saying I'm really sorry I had to take six years out because I was looking after children I'm sorry I had to travel across the world to look after my aging mother or whatever the reasons are that becomes a contribution to your knowledge of how the world works and the contribution that you can therefore make to science right it's a different way of looking at how you understand excellence sorry somebody it's quite hard to manage the 101 participants online that's it I think especially we can only have one contribution from each person that I would say definitely but Joe you had to hand them can I say something hello Vijay sorry we have a response here I think I need to make the way so you don't hear me no I was just going to remark on what Sandra said I mean Sandra talked about encouraging they needed to encourage but I also think there's a need not to discourage I know when I was a graduate student some of my we all of us graduate students were always together men women but some of the women said well you know my advisor told me well I don't really believe a woman should be getting a woman should be actually in a PhD program but I'll take you anyway something like that and so that was not only not encouraging it was discouraging and because there was something a little bit wrong with that advisor so anyway I think that's also a problem I think you know approaching problems the other thing I was going to mention Sandra mentioned that in his opening remarks about not only using all the great matter by the way we only use 10% of our great matter as individuals we only use 5% if we exclude women but I think approaching a scientific problem is also I like to think about when I was in elementary school we had what we call story problems I guess it's called physics now but it was you know it wasn't the mathematics you had to actually put it in context of a society it had a problem and you tried to solve it so there's a way to approach a problem I think we need lots of diverse points of view different cultures I mean that actually affects how we can actually approach a problem because there's no there's no guarantee we know the mathematics we know the formula we know how to the mechanics of it but you have to approach a problem and try to find a better way to get it an answer so anyway I think we need all we need a lot of contributions from everybody around the world to do exactly that it's not just the mechanics it's how you think about it and conceptual okay thank you Joe I'm going to ask Rufina I can see with your hand Rufina from Senegal are you there I think you need to unmute yourself maybe or wait we can't hear you Rufina okay okay maybe you can write your comment Rufina sorry we can't hear you even though you're unmuted I can't see the other hands up here okay any other comments hello thanks I also just want to comment on your answer just now on whether we should only focus on the result of scientific production or also on the process of how it is being produced because I think even if we look at only the results of the scientific activities and even if we found that it just happens to be that there are more results coming from the men it doesn't mean even if we just use as a measure of scientific excellence it doesn't mean that men perform better than women in science because if the symmetry is broken as result we have to trace back where the symmetry has been broken perhaps there are already inequalities from the source or some unbalanced institution in the process of how science works that leads to this unbalanced result and leads to a broken symmetry so this is something we need to be careful of and to pay attention to because it means there might be some problem with the with the institution or with the society that leads to already an unbalanced source from the beginning and then from this we have an unbalanced result so yeah I think if if we are if we found a problem which stated that we are the women in science we need to ask on a different level that why this happens a priori in society so I think this leads to some deeper problems whether than just why it is important to have women in science so we have to ask why this is happening in the first place sounds like a project for ICTP researchers I think since we are on a schedule we could close now and go and have refreshments and then if anybody would like to come back into the room to consider what it might be to have a special national chapter based here in ICTP we can have that conversation afterwards just let me ask if there are final comments from the panelists or any final comments from the room hi Anna just a closing comment I can't help myself pick up on your question on where are all the women but really for me it's where are all the men right now and maybe online there is a better balance but I think structurally we have a very deep problem which the center is facing for example and I really support the words of the past speaker how we have to go to the root of these problems and also what we are seeing how you need mentorship and you need men and I think these activities on diversity and inclusion need to be compulsory actually somehow the message needs to go through either through compulsory activities or really emphasizing the relevance of these meetings and discussions for the men as much as the women and there are a context where a woman orientated forum is I'm sure you'll discuss it after the break but this kind of discussion is remarkable that it doesn't include men more than we think it should so Sandra you made a reflection on how it feels to be on that panel this is something that others should perhaps experience and really understand why we push to include women in selection panels why we push to have representation because even the psychological experience for women is a real challenge and if you have a character you need more support than others your scientific excellence has nothing to do with that but you're at a very very strong disadvantage so sorry I'll end because we have coffee now but really to emphasize the need for men to be as part of women as part of the women in this conversation absolutely thank you so much for that comment and also to say it goes hand in hand of course with the experience of developing world scientists as well that same kind of sense of exclusion from participation so what we're really talking about is diversity and inclusion they are big buzzwords but they really are important and I guess what we need to do in any single gathering any kind of meeting that you have ever at ICTP that meeting should always be considering you know are we having a diverse and inclusive meeting who have we not invited to be here why are they not here any kind of meeting not just what I find really difficult I have to say is that you know women scientists are continually being asked to talk about what does it mean to be a women scientist and the more of these kinds of conversations we have where we put women scientists on the panel the less they're talking about the science and the more they're talking about their lives and that's also a kind of self-fulfilling prophecy and we really want to move away from that we want to have the opportunities for women scientists to talk about their science and for them to be listened to and for that science to be really celebrated for its excellence and its contribution and maybe a final thought we could have a final brief dialogue here the film about Marisa from Congo that you saw which is part of this O's Vision series is a very interesting also in relation to the international year for basic science because I've had conversations with Sandra about this, I've had conversations with Marisa about this, I've had conversations with Laura Dana about this who they've each worked separately with Marisa who was visiting here at ICTP and expressed some disappointment that the film doesn't really show the sophistication of her scientific endeavours and so this is a conversation I find really interesting because the making of that film was handed over to Marisa you know what do you want to say about yourself and what do you want to say about your science and for her in that moment she wanted to communicate to you know her fellow potential scientist in Congo what she does and to explain the relevance but I don't know if Sandra you might want to say something about that I know you're dying too it was a difficult discussion I have to say because he was you know sorry sorry sorry sorry yeah no I mean my comment was the fact that we are I mean you've seen Marisa right you've seen Marisa in action but what you didn't see is the fact that Marisa graduated with a degree in theoretical physics she did experiments here in Trieste with Laura Dana on working with state-of-the-art equipment publishing top international journals and she went back to Congo to set up a lab that was trying to replicate this and she was actually doing that and so I was a little bit surprised to see but that the way she presented herself this documentary was talking about something which is of course relevant which is of course something that their community wants to hear and probably also discussing something that some communities also in the west want to hear you know solving replacing coal as a source of energy in their houses which of course is the problem but it's not something that Marisa was trained and she's expert of state-of-the-art research and in our countries I'm talking about the west we clearly make a distinction between these aspects because we need fundamental research we need advanced research and this is extremely important but we also of course need people who go and develop products and they talk to the society try to solve the basic problem of society but we also need an educated community that works on advanced problems for a number of reasons ICDP wouldn't exist if it wasn't for that in some sense so I was I mean my comment was a bit I was a bit surprised to see Marisa talking about you know constructed in such a way that she was sort of pleasing you know but I mean we can discuss well just before we do go to the break and discuss this very passionately I think I'm just wondering if there's anybody perhaps diploma students who really engaged with the films when we showed them in Trieste in November and particularly liked some of these aspects so if you have any comments in response to what Sandor just said no yes I think I like the fact he mentioned the state of the act I mean what women in developing countries do they do state of the act science not just to solve so I think actually we should move from this making it look like women in science are not doing state of the act solutions even if it's just one woman we want to showcase what she has done in sciences I think it's something we should improve on I was saying that I don't like the narrative that is always shown like the woman scientist anywhere in the world is suffering or has not really provided world solutions even if it's one showcase that woman and that way the younger woman sees that there was somebody who did it and then she can also pursue that for the illiterate woman she's not completely illiterate I'm talking now about my country Nigeria the illiterate woman is not completely illiterate because she does bleach she does soap for selling to take care of her family you just want to show her that this bleach this local soap that you're doing is what they sell to you in the supermarket as jik as you know the sophisticated soaps so your daughter can do these things you know so just show her that these things that you're doing things that the world needs so I think that will be my comment for the woman scientist like let's not really bring down that even if it's one woman that has done that it's the state of the art solution I mean blow her trumpets let's everybody here let's not continue that narrative of she's suffering she's suffering we don't have them we don't have them yes but we have them also I mean so we should celebrate those women too thank you and actually we really wanted Marisa to be online to discuss this aspect of the film but she couldn't be here today but I wonder what's anything about the making of that film or in that sense we had a discussion with Marisa about the result of the film and the purpose in South Africa because I of course it's a difficult way of doing films like a guide in someone else from a distance who is not a filmmaker or a communicator so of course it's a difficult to get what you want and in this case we agreed that it was important to show things because also Marisa needed the video to show to her minister what she could obtain for the people and so we had a discussion because I understand perfectly what she was saying and I agree that we should show the excellence of women in science not only the application for the communities at the same time I think that she really decided to do that because she wanted to show to the minister basically what could be achieved for the community but of course I'm not a scientist so I also think in terms of directors so we want to see things we want to have visuals and of course when you talk about impact and communities it's always easier to see something especially for physicists and mathematicians it's very very difficult to have something visual which could be interesting for the everyday people and somehow also people giving money and the governments are everyday people because maybe they are not mathematicians or physicists and in this case I think Marisa really wanted something simple to show this is what we discussed about it it was very interesting so this is my It's pragmatic in the end isn't it and now Marisa is advisor to the minister of science and technology and she's coming to present on a UN panel on least developed countries with her minister in Doha first week of March so she's making a massive impact and she still has of course she has all of that scientific highly sophisticated scientific background that she uses that she shares that she teaches and she's working really really hard to get money and resources for the people that she lives with and she works with I think when it's a choice that's fantastic but it is also true that women scientists are continually called upon to volunteer to work in their communities spend a much higher percentage of their time as mentors there's that sense of giving back to the community maybe it's a pressure maybe that's one of these elements that needs to be looked into in the breakdown of what's causing everything I think with that we should have some refreshments and then come back for discussion about the National Chapter so thank you so much everybody for coming here and being in the room and thank you all the participants online sorry that we couldn't it was too difficult to manage to have you all speaking but thank you so much those of you who did comment and there's many messages that we'll have a look at and think about how we can respond and carry on this conversation so thank you all very much and thank you ICTP