started I think. Welcome. I'm Cliff Lynch. I'm the director of the Coalition for Network Information and you're here with us for one of the project briefing sessions on the second day of week two of the CNI 2020 fall virtual member meeting. And just to remind you of a couple of things, this week is themed around the transformation of organizations and professions. We are recording the session and we'll make it available after. We do have closed captioning available if you'd like to avail yourself of that. There is a chat and feel free to use that to comment, to introduce yourself as needed. We also have a Q&A tool on the bottom of the screen. I invite you to queue up questions at any time. We'll take all the questions at the end of the presentation and Diane Goldenberg Hart from CNI will moderate that Q&A session. But as I say, feel free to queue up questions at any point during the presentation as they occur to you. Finally, I'll just remind you that starting with week two of this virtual fall meeting, we are making available not just synchronous sessions but also a few pre-recorded videos. So please have a look at those when you have time. And I think with that, it's time to introduce our speakers. We have two speakers in the session, Katie O'Neill and Matthew Trexin. Both of them are with Loyola Notre Dame Library. And the session is going to focus on what really is sort of a classical CNA partnership between academic libraries and IT but infused with a new dimension which is deep engagement with academic affairs around an agenda tied to student success. And I think with that frame, I will just welcome you all. Thank Katie and Matthew for agreeing to do this presentation and pass it over to Katie. Thanks so much, Cliff. We appreciate the opportunity to be with you all today. And I look forward to talking with you all about this topic. As Cliff mentioned, my name is Katie O'Neill. I'm the associate director of the Loyola Notre Dame Library. I'm here with my colleague Matthew Trescon, the library's technology librarian. Today, we'd like to share with you our library's journey to infuse technology with pedagogy, leveraging campus partnerships with IT and academic affairs to support student success. I'll be sharing context about the work that we've done to build the foundation for success. And Matthew will then talk about the programs and user experiences he and his technology services unit have co-created with colleagues across the library and the campuses. Next. Yes, at L&DL, we like to say it takes two. L&DL is a little different. We're one of only two independent academic libraries in the United States. That means we're a separate 501c3 nonprofit and don't report directly into either of the two schools that we support. Under the leadership of our library director, Barbara Priest, since 2012, the library has been aligning its purpose with the educational missions of the two universities. We support Loyola University, Maryland and Notre Dame of Maryland University in northwest Baltimore. As Barbara likes to say, to succeed in our work, we really, she has to work with two provosts, two CIOs and two CFOs to make things happen. And we do that throughout the organization with the partnerships that we have. The library aligned with the strategic plans for both institution and has been transitioning to an innovative center of learning that adapts to users changing needs for space, both physical and virtual, information and technology to support the research teaching and learning of students and faculty. Dr. Bram Rgani, the associate dean of Applied and Natural Sciences for Loyola's College of Arts and Sciences was actually an early partner and supporter of the development of a campus makerspace in the library after winning a Pathways to Innovation grant through the National Science Foundation in 2015. In 2017, he was dubbed an honorary librarian for his work with us when the innovation station makerspace officially opened. The partnership has expanded with the use of the library space for program support and funding for new technology by Wendy Bolger. She's Loyola's inaugural director of their new center of innovation and entrepreneurship. Next. Early in 2015, our director and Loyola's chief information officer sponsored a technology audit for the library. I was partnered with the library's acting head of digital services at the time, Daniel Renn Johnson and David Arnett, who was the associate director of servers and storage at Loyola's technology services department. We get all of our technology infrastructure from the bigger school, which is Loyola. We developed a plan to demonstrate how technology could best support student success in a 21st century academic library. This plan was approved by the library's board of directors, as were an independent organization, and it also had to be reviewed and approved by the board of directors for both schools. At the end of the full implementation of this plan in 2019, the following results were achieved. Funding for library technology was increased annually on average by 52.5% until the pandemic. This level of funding was sustained. We are in a pause this year, as imagine, you all are feeling, you know, pinches on budget, but the commitment remains strong around educational technology for the library. All 23 recommendations were fully recommended and implemented building the digital infrastructure that's allowed us to upgrade and maintain building technology, optimize library's operations, and the customer experience, while also building partnerships with faculty to integrate educational technology into the curriculum. This slide really illustrates our transition of the main level of the library with the introduction of the Copyright Information Center in 2016, the Innovation Station Maker Space, as I mentioned before, in 2017, the Digital Learning Commons in 2018, and a virtual reality classroom and a recording studio in 2019. Despite the pandemic in the fall of 2020, with our partners in the CINE, the Innovation and Entrepreneurship Center, we introduced a new laser cutter for our Maker Space. Next slide. Additionally, the library has expanded our institutional capacity to reposition our services by focusing on user needs. L and DL has 26 full-time employees with a headcount of 42 employees when part-time employees are included. Early on, the library reframed roles to meet current and anticipated needs as staff changes occurred over time. Matthew's position of technology librarian is a good example of this. This position was redefined as an outcome of the technology report. Key communication and collaboration infrastructure was added to provide formal and informal means for creative problem-solving. In 2012, managers used to meet bimonthly in a manager's meeting, and unit meetings across departments occurred really based on department head preferences. Today, decision-making happens at a director's advisory group, which meets bimonthly and includes senior library administrators to make sure that there's awareness of programs across the board that are happening. Regular department unit, as well as liaison meetings with academic units, now also occur regularly. Charges for standing committees and use of task forces to innovate programs and engage users has remained really critical to our ongoing success to facilitate change. This approach has been particularly important for staffing and sustainably growing the library's digital scholarship program, which Matthew will talk about a little bit later. New consortium memberships in East and USMAI, our Maryland state consortium here, has provided opportunities for networking and professional development for librarians and staff. Finally, as this slide illustrates, as the work evolves, so did our organization structure. In 2018, with the technology infrastructure in place, the library reorganized, shifting away from a traditional public services and technical services model, and created two different departments, collections and access services and research and technology services. This placed our technology services unit with our research and instruction librarians to really maximize the breadth of programming that we could allow to partner with academic affairs. It has allowed us to optimize collection development, access services, building use, and really helped us expand our instruction consultation and outreach programming. Specifically, this reorganization really facilitated a reframing of our library instruction program so that we could support and promote information, digital, and data fluencies. You can see we used our information literacy, which has had a strong background in active and engaged learning to build a basis to build upon to add in our instruction program in the technology, digital scholarship, copyright, and we just launched a data management consultation this fall as well. Next slide. When we look at specifically at the digital fluency aspects of the expanded instruction program, we have really focused on the following model and competencies to help us kind of frame that program. I'm going to turn the presentation over to Matthew at this point because he can share with you examples of how we're going about doing this work together with our partners in academic affairs. The Loyal Notre Dame Library has provided a digital scholarship support in some capacity for several years. However, until recently, the support was generally ad hoc. In FY20, the library completed a digital scholarship program review and this we evaluated the current state of digital scholarship at the library, benchmarked against peer institutions, and developed a set of best practices, and also established procedures and website language. Key to this work was formalizing the life cycle assessment of our digital scholarship program. This included an intake interview slash form and a three-year review process. In this way, we set help set expectations and manage our capacity. Skills include collections and development, project management, web technology and programming, online training, and we work with existing staff members, myself included, to find ideas and interests and skills that leverage our interest level and excitement and partner with the university's faculty members in ways that are standard traditional things like Omega versus other things like working with APIs to analyze and analyze new analysis. These projects range from a work that is limited to classroom exercise to those that are developed with the broader academic community in mind. One such product has been the women's literary club of Baltimore, which was a multi-year project that includes several semesters of classroom scholarship. Clara Love, now a member of our digital scholarship team, worked in this project as a student. In 2018, she and I presented at the Bucknell Digital Scholarship Conference. In the following year, the digital scholarship team worked with an education professor for a project that involved both web work and creative making, and on the right hand side, Holy Comics Batman. This was a classroom exercise and is a good example of what classes can do, although the scope is limited to the interests of developing the students' understanding of the curriculum. Later that year, the professor and I presented at the Bucknell Digital Scholarship Conference. We continue to partner with academics and academic affairs, faculty, and other units across both campuses that support the research teaching and learning of the two universities. One area we do this, as mentioned before, are these hands-on technology of popular classes that were really the brainchild of the associate dean of applied natural sciences at Loyola. The library continues to develop. We believe that the ability to create and navigate technology is in alignment with expanded scope of the information literacy as described in the Association and College Research Library's information literacy, and works towards answering the need for digital fluency, which the Horizon Report considers a significant challenge. By positioning students as makers, libraries can engage them in critically thinking about choices that influence the development and application of media and technology. And second, the information creation is a process just as information or knowledge just doesn't exist, the world of technology doesn't just exist. It evolves. Today and the library has developed this pop-up class series, as well as launched a successful makerspace. Starting in 2017, the library organized a series of classes each semester on emerging technology such as Arduino's, Raspberry Pi's, virtual reality, audio video editing, the ancient technology such as the biology of breadmaking and knitting. This initiative started, oh, sorry. And in addition, regarding the innovation station, which was launched at the beginning of 2017, branded the innovation station, we started with 3D printing, 3D scanning, computerized sewing embroidery, a large one printer, one button recording studio, and the music creation editing computer. And later, the following year, we expanded to include the old-flage recording studio, a digital paper cutting machine, laminator, button maker, virtual reality classroom, and Arduino's and Raspberry's available for checkout. Integral to our success has been our partnerships with faculty and integration with their curriculum. One particular notebook example is with our recording studio, which was developed in partnership with a faculty member at the Lowe University of Maryland communicates department, who is also the TV radio manager. He helped with his expertise. He let us know what equipment was necessary to get it working, what people would be expecting, and how to do our best to isolate the sound of a speaker with the proper microphones. He also helps teach pop-up classes on various video editing software and has helped develop library staff members with our expertise so that we can help him help his students. Our VR classroom, launched a bit later, has been focused on providing experiential learning opportunities pertaining to psychology with apps from Guardian VR on various psychological experiences, nursing with a schizophrenia app, which we got specific to the professor's need, and historical reference points like religious studies and medieval Europe. Our one button studio has been used extensively by the English Language Institute at Notre Dame for the purposes of practicing learning, practicing speaking English. This program brings students from all around the world to Baltimore to learn how to be immersed in the English language, and this technology, which if you're not familiar with it, is a simple way of you put your thumb drive in, press the button to start recording, and then where you're done recording, press a button, and then it's automatically saved to your thumb drive. This simple technology, at least simple for the end user's experience, makes it really easy for them to practice speaking, either putting together a really simple play or speaking in a monologue, explaining about where they're from or what type of food they'd like to eat. And one other point that we'd like to bring up is that we also are heavily integrated with the first-year experience at both universities. At Loyola, it is the Messina program, which pairs generally two very different disciplines together and has some kind of overarching theme, and also at Notre Dame, which has a first-year experience as well. We provide many class tours, and we also have had the opportunity to engage them with American Space and having creative exercises that produce artifacts that use the technology, but in ways that further the point of the exercise. The library has also brought on the reach of the innovation station beyond these academic departments to other areas that support the education mission, such as Center for Entrepreneurship Innovation. Our Viswell and Consultation Spaces have been integral in with their multi-preneurs program, which provides potential business startups with the opportunity to meet with experts in areas of how to do business research, how to set up the financials and things like that, and also the DENT summer program, which provided the opportunity for high school students in the Baltimore area to learn about various making technologies and ways that they can potentially leverage those things for potential careers in business and making. And one more thing I'd like to mention is our book bank, which in partnership with Copyright Librarian and her expertise in copyright, we're leveraging our streaming video service to host story time videos for Baltimore City public school teachers to use with their students. And oh, just went right ahead. Anyways, so we, in three years we've seen dramatic increase in use of our makerspace, both in terms of equipment use and check what we call Check Out, because we use our library catalog to determine the chocolate of kids and such, and also in seeing dozens of class tours and exercises with departments all across campus. We've, however, then in, as we all know, COVID-19 hit, and we had to shut down the building and plan for what we figure out what we can do in the interim while we're all virtual, we're also virtual, and how we can, what we would need to do to open up back safely. The Technology Services Department modified its services in order to follow University guidelines from Loyola and Notre Dame, and best practices that are derived from ALA, our consortium, and peer institutions. These modifications limit the need for face-to-face interaction, encourage social distancing, promote virtual services, and facilitate the cleaning of touchpoints. While we're working virtually, we figured out what we can do remotely, and one of the things we, one of the things we did was to mail packets to a Masina class, a couple Masina classes, the first-year class at Loyola, and where we provided them with the equipment necessary to experiment with paper circuits, with conductive tape, LED, and such. And we have also taught classes that, that help students remotely, but the virtual makerspace, such as things that can be installed on their computer, like open source, podcasting technology, or video, audio editing, like audacity, and also mapping technology, such as story maps. And an important note is that when we're planning for the, how to open it back up, both in the fall and possibly the spring, we're thinking about how to work from not just get through this and provide educational services and media, but how we can do those things in ways that improve the experience of the university's students and faculty over in the future. Some of these things include developing a virtual tour of the makerspace, virtual tour of the library, provide virtual training, and also provide virtual support. And with the virtual support, we have two levels. One is that we've worked to, we've partnered with the Research Instruction Librarians Library Chat Service to be a, to be able to answer questions pertaining to technology. And the second level is that we are available for video training at a distance using our Zoom card, the station, the makerspace. So this way, with the Zoom card, we can provide in detail support at a distance over an extended period of time without having to worry about contact tracing and potential infection. But also, this is something that we could leverage in the future for after-hour supports. That way, we can provide this kind of training at a distance, say at eight o'clock at night, when we're generally not working, but we can flex our time and figure out how to do that. In addition, we're also having, we also have the opportunity to discuss the faculty members in higher level classes about how to design classes that leverage our technology, such as 3D design and development for the communications department, and also VR and XR development for nursing. Another way that the library has supported, oh, we're running on time. Wow. Has been to produce PPE for the universities. We've partnered with OpenWorks to produce 540 face shields for them to deliver to healthcare workers. And we've also shifted towards production for the university to make completed face shields. And this work was featured in EdTech Magazine, a local business journal, and also the student newspaper. And finally, we support student success through creative partnerships, working with the student clubs, such as robotics, providing space for them, and also providing opportunity for them to teach pop-up classes on how to work adorinos. And they develop their own curriculum, they develop their own training procedures, and also the Society of Women Engineers. We also work with the departments, computer science, data science, and engineering on their senior capstone project, where we provide them with the opportunity to, where we serve as client for them to think through these creative problems that we pose, such as like, how do you do a dry erase word, use a system, or meeting room availability, and also artificial intelligence, where we provided them with privacy restricted search library chats to analyze how the submit, to identify sentiment and clustering for a data science. And these students have gone on to be partners in the university to do well in higher, I've received some feedback from them, they're doing well in the various software development companies, defense, and such too. And they are able to think through the challenges of writing, writing through the procedures and describing things in such a way that they're, they can do the stuff, but they can also work with people to get the problems understood and defined. Okay. Thanks, Matthew. So none of this happens without a creative staff and a culture of assessment, as you all can well imagine. And that's been, as Matthew said, very critical for us as we've worked through our reopening. Matthew, if you can switch to the next slide. We also realize that all of this happens and you need to make sure we're understanding the impact that this is happening. In addition to a library impact dashboard, we're currently working with colleagues in academic affairs to define and demonstrate each student's success for the overall new instruction program that I mentioned earlier. We've crosswalked the ACRL information literacy framework with the AACU values rubric that's used by both of our schools for accreditation purposes. This slide shows you where our instruction program and the work Matthew described earlier supports the rubric by learning outcome and discipline. And this fall, we're actually piloting a common assessment tool across all programs. Next slide. And finally, a common question we often get is, how do you get started? Allendale has learned that it's about starting the conversation and keeping it going while remaining open to new ideas and partnership as they emerge. At Allendale, outreach was prioritized early on from all areas of the library. The library's liaison program was redesigned quite early on. Our social media and social events committees and a communication and collaboration task force have been charged over time to really engage people in virtual settings and spotlight high visibility in new programs. And in 2018, a staff member was promoted to a reframed outreach and engagement librarian position to expand our reach. Last slide, Matthew. And so ultimately, we are still working to find the best ways to connect with both campuses to share how the library can best support faculty and students. This work is, I imagine, is true in all of your organizations, is never done. Matthew and I want to thank you for your time this afternoon and we'd be happy to take any questions now or any follow-up after the session via email. Thank you all. Thank you, Katie and Matthew, for that wonderful presentation. It's great to hear of all the interesting things that you are doing there in Baltimore and really interesting stuff going on. The floor is now open for questions so please feel free to type your questions into the Q&A box and our speakers will field them now. While we're waiting for people to think about that, I did want to follow up, Katie, on the transition in the library to this new alignment. You mentioned, you did talk about the staff adjustments, some of the realignment of the staffing. I was wondering if you could talk a little bit more about that. I'm sure that was a big undertaking. What was involved? How did it go? What were some of your takeaways from that? Sure. Interestingly enough, I think the reorganization we did in the middle, where I described moving us to that halfway point, was probably the larger adjustment than the shift to combining the research and technology units together and that cause. I think that's because we were still in the phase where we had a number of new positions that as people retired primarily, you would take the opportunity to reframe positions but also at that point in time, partnerships were still in early development across the campuses so understanding how to connect and how that work drove things. I think that was a larger adjustment. For example, in that phase, we combined our reference desk with our circulation desk into that integrated desk. That was a big cultural change. That was part of that mid reorganization. I think we really used a task force from both units to explore it, define it, and they owned that transition. Again, back to using those short-term task force with clear charges to help and make sure there's collaborative involved teams in those processes to help us define the work so that there was more buy-in as we made those changes. The other piece that we're still working on is communication and collaboration. It's one of those things you're never done. Like I said in the past year, we did a culture survey for our organization last year. We scored very high and very well. But an area of ongoing improvement, even though the scores were very high with communication and collaboration. We have a task force now that's looking at additional ways for us to continue to grow in that area. But I think because we took an incremental starting small to work big is the way we like to think about it. I think Anne made sure that we weren't too far ahead of the campus, but it was very much tied to customer service, which was a strong ethos and value for all of the organization in the library. I can't say it wasn't without some pain and some disagreement, obviously along the way, but it allowed us to evolve our organization over time. Sure. Okay, that's very helpful and really interesting. Thank you for elaborating on that. Cliff has got a question or a comment here. He's asking if you could talk a little bit more about the virtual maker space after COVID and what kind of reception this got and also whether the user community changed when the space went virtual. Any comments on that? Sure. I can speak to that. Our virtual maker space, our pop-ups this past semester were all aligned previously. They're all in person, but there have been benefits with that. There have been more opportunities being able to record that, share that after the fact with people who may have missed it, and it's also provided them with opportunity to just check in and check out or when they're available and when they have need, as opposed to walking to the campus, walking back to their dorm and things like that. The pop-up class series went pretty well. It went well this semester. Similar use, maybe a bit more. I have to add the total numbers. Regarding the support of the maker technology, our equipment is generally still available for use, although there are very few people on campus, so it hasn't been used that much. We're focusing on how to provide these virtual trainings. The students that have gotten through the training, when they walk into the library and we set up the Zoom cart and they can work with one of my colleagues to be trained in the sewing machine and such. That has gone just as well as in person. It's really quite nice. It's one of those budget tech meet-up cameras with nice Zoom. It's really with good microphone, and it really does just as good a job as being there in person. We've also had the opportunity to, what else is there, and then provide support for some software that is not some open-source software like Audacity and Storymaps and ArcGIS, not open-source, but we have some limited licenses with that. We can provide them with support for these technologies in ways that are starting to merge the boundaries between what is makerspace and what is digital scholarship. Interesting. Well, thank you. Thank you so much for that elaboration. Thanks, Cliff, for the question. I see that we are a little past time here, so I'm going to go ahead and close down the public portion of the presentation by stopping the recording, but I invite any attendees who have time and wish to stay and chat with our speakers. Please feel free to hang out a bit, raise your hand. I'll be happy to unmute you and give you an opportunity to engage with our speakers. With that, I just want to thank all of our attendees, both of our speakers. Thank you so much for coming to CNI, and we hope to see everyone back at CNI's fall meeting here again soon. Take care, everyone.


This is a very exciting show. This is history is here to help every couple of Thursdays at 11, like that 12. And this one is special because we've been lining up for this for a long time. The title today is Classical Origins of Democracy in the West. Because we seem to live in a time where everybody's focused on what happened today. We don't necessarily connect the boss to last week, much less to last millennia. And that's what we need to do. We need to see how humankind has evolved and how democracy has evolved over the life of humankind, especially back to the classics. So what could be more appropriate than talk to a classist? When you talk about history, do the broad sweep, right? As Sandy Schwartz, as a classist at UH Manoa, and she is going to help us understand the grand sweep of democracy in Western life and in global life for that matter, because it all started in Europe. Sandy, thank you so much for coming on the show. OK, my pleasure. I love talking about this topic. So what I'd like to do today is to talk about the foundations of what we know as democracy. The etymology, Deimos, means a is a village. And Kratos, which is where we get crassie, democracy, is the Kratos means power, power of the people. Oh, I love it. Yeah. So democracy began in very humble places where people around the Aegean Sea and also in the Mediterranean, they settled in areas where they could make a go of building a community and a town. There are many archaeologists have found hundreds of different towns in this area. In the Mediterranean Sea, the Mediterranean Sea was a connective network. And so we have parallels and comparisons that help us understand the real cultural phenomena that people had developed around the 7th century BCE. The 7th century BCE was a period of time when new tools were being developed, particularly the tools of iron. And that enabled people in the Mediterranean basin to be able to use agricultural tools and develop an ability to grow your population. So that's the foundational part, that agriculture is the foundation. And as these cities began to grow and families could support more children, many of the polis would become larger and larger. And that's just the simple way of understanding how these polis developed. Now, they could have been here in the East just as easily. They could have been brutal dictatorships just as easily. OK. Something happened in Greece. Something happened in Greece. Yes, something happened in Greece. When these cities started to become larger, there would be more specialization. And that would enable more wealth to come into the city. And these communities, the polis, were mostly egalitarian in the early periods. People would have the same size houses. They would probably have the same homogeneity. Families would be coming together. But once in the 6th century, as the boom in development of cities, there was a really important phenomenon. And that was there had to be some sort of coordination in the management of the city. So at first, we have this homogeneous system. But then what happened afterwards was a group of people, typically the people who surrounded usually a big man and a physically big man. Not necessarily a physically big man. But there were individuals who could amass a coterie of supporters around this big man, which we call a tyrant. Now, the word tyrant actually doesn't come from the Greek or Latin words. That would be later on. A tyrant was a name for a Phoenician leader. And the Greeks had no experience of that. And so they picked the name from the Phoenicians, which was called a tyrant. And from there, that became the tyrant. So the Phoenicians were earlier in the city building phase than the Greeks were. Of course, the Phoenicians and the Greeks had communication across the Mediterranean. So what typically happened in these poles is that there was typically an aristocracy. The people who surrounded the tyrant, we'll call them the tyrant now. And I won't say it's a tyrant. It's the aristocracy. Aristocracies are very competitive. And what happened was that when the city became very large and prosperous, the people, the farmers, the artisans, the tradesmen, they then turned to the tyrant. And they turned to the aristocracy. And an aristocrat would typically break from the aristocracy and ally himself to the workers of the polis, the tradesmen, the craftsmen, and agricultural workers. And so what happened was that the tradesmen, the workers, lifted one of the members of the aristocracy would take the workers into their own union. I guess it's kind of like a union. So what happened was that over the 6th century, more and more towns began to throw off the aristocracy and to bring in a singular individual who would take control of leading the workers that up until then, the aristocracy just didn't even pay attention to them. So with this new individual, he could then amass power and he could amass power from the workers and he could then create a new system. So there was this process of having a new kind of system. It was kind of like a revolution in a way. And the tyrant was the hero. But it was participatory, right? It was democracy, it was the voice of the people. I mean, was it a utopian world we're talking about? Or maybe a tyrannical one? No, not at all. It was not at all utopian, not at all. They had all of their political dynamics in each of the cities, in many of the cities. Some of them differed in different ways. But there was a sense that there could be a strong man who would help raise the workers and to break the aristocracy. OK, so the first thing you have to know is that tyrants aren't necessarily bad in ancient Greece. It was a way of breaking the aristocracy. So there was a wave of these kinds of new settlements, new kinds of settlements. And so these polis came to dominate the community, the members of the city. So the most familiar story about the tyranny in ancient Greece came about when there was a tyrant in Athens. His name was Pisistratus. And he had overseas contacts that could prop him up and bring him to the nascent city of Athens. Pisistratus was good for Athens. He had those kinds of connections in foreign places. And he settled in Athens. Now, it goes back and forth. The story of how these cities grow goes back and forth, of course.  And the city that had some influence or even domination over other polices and the country, if you want to call it a country, of Greece at the time. Right. So there were many cities in Greece that were vying to grow in their area. And that then created a significant military battle. And Greece is very rocky. There aren't a lot of large plains. And so in the 6th century, there were more and more people trying to get land grabs. So when Pisistratus came into Athens, he found that there were different communities in the hilly areas of Attica. Attica is the province where Athens is. Pisistratus made a grand plan to impress the citizens of Athens by finding a very tall woman. He dressed her up as the goddess Athena. And he took a chariot and brought her to Athens. And this was like a great PR coup for Pisistratus. But the problem with Athens was that there were different areas of Athens. And the people who lived in those areas had different ideas. So for example, there was one third of Attica was divided into areas around the Aegean. Then there was another area where the hilly areas were. And people populated this whole area. And it was until Pisistratus came with his coup to bring this dressed up Athena to Athens. This became his program of uniting all of Attica. So earlier he had to make deals. He had to make deals with all the people on the hills there. And he had to offer them an opportunity to participate against the origins of democracy in Greece. Right, right. So Pisistratus was the first tyrant. Of course, tyrants don't last long, especially when there are people or the sons of tyrants end up becoming the new tyrants. So Pisistratus' sons had kind of broken down what Pisistratus had built. And so Pisistratus' sons came to the Panathenaic procession in Athens, which was one of the great parades in Athens. And at the head of the parade, one of the sons of Pisistratus was assassinated. And so then all bets were off. And the people of Athens, who had been subjected to the depredations of the sons of Pisistratus, they then decided that the Athenian citizens themselves decided that they needed to organize a new kind of political system. And so the Spartans, the Spartans were the enemies of Athens. And many people in Athens were pro-Spartan because Spartan had a very well-run system. It was a very military, militaristic city. And so there was a faction in Athens that wanted to have a military dictatorship like Spartan had. And then other people in Athens decided that they would make a new kind of organization, a new kind of political organization. And from that came to a figure in Athens. There are always these amazing leaders in Athens. And the Athenian people really had an extraordinary sense of their responsibilities to their deems, to the town, to their they they had the Pan-Athenaic festival was part of this way of getting the people of Athens to understand what Athens was. So it was a perfect storm. Because all the pieces were in place. It didn't have to happen. Almost like a mutation that you have all these pieces in place. And then one day some magical thing happens, some twist of history, some personalities in contradiction to each other, in contention with each other, and then bingo, magic. And it lights up. And it is democracy. It's the finest thing. My right, it is the finest thing that has happened up to that point in human history, right there, almost by accident in Athens. Wow. And then there was a period of time in which it developed and it became even more refined. Am I right? Yes. And it still went back and forth. But then in the fifth century, the Athenian citizens really took it upon themselves to make their city. Theater was an important aspect of Athens. Athenian playwrights wrote hundreds of plays that really brought a mirror to the Athenian citizens so that they could see themselves and they could understand what the values were of Athens. What a lovely thought. So it wasn't just entertainment. It was actually a forerunner of the First Amendment. They were speaking honestly about what was happening to them as a political organization. Right. And they took it seriously. They took the theater very seriously because it had the most profound values to be supported throughout the Athenian citizenship. Of course, some women went to the theater. Some didn't. There's a lot of interesting plays that have to do with gender and sexuality and the family and how things worked. All these great classical drama that we have is really a kind of way of teaching the masses about what Athens was. And again, if you're a classicist, there's no better way to find out the way the Greeks lived than reading their plays. Right. Right. Absolutely. And I mean, there's amazing archaeology that around the foothill of the Acropolis, the Acropolis was the topmost hill in Athens, archaeologists have excavated the areas around the Acropolis. And you can see in Athens today, they have plexiglass where you can see into the houses of Athens. And the interesting thing about the houses of Athens was that they were all the same size. It was egalitarian. And their work. Would that mean that there was a value, a point of limitation? In other words, if I was a wise guy and I was a trader using those forts in Greece to make money on selling things and importing, exporting, and I made money. And I wanted to build a house three times the size of my neighbor. There had to be a limitation, a cultural limitation, where people would stop me from doing that somehow. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, the Athenians, they had courts. They had elections. They tried to randomize people who would go into the courts. It's an amazing story about how the Athenians were able to figure out a system that would be fair to everyone. What about brutality? What about unfairness? What about the dark side? Was there a dark side? There was slavery, of course. Then in the ancient world, slavery was endemic. Most houses had a slave. Many slaves had to work in the fields. So we have this utopia on the hill, but it wasn't really a utopia on the hill. There were also political problems, factionalism. There were traitors. One of the most famous of the traitors was Al-Sabaides. He convinced the Athenian navy to go to Sicily. And he really botched that job. That is in Thucydides' history of the Peloponnesian War. So there were always people who, like the early tyrants, they wanted to try to get the golden ring, I guess you could say, and try to get all the power of Athens. Because when you have this egalitarian system, there's always a threat that a tyrant can come in again. In this system, Sunday, was there a formalized rotation, a change of management, a transfer of power? Or was it power as long as you could hold on to it? During the period of classical Athens, the citizens really took, as I said before, they took responsibility for their actions. In Athens, there was a name for someone who didn't want to participate in the government. And the name of that person, or the type of person it was, they called him an idiotace, which means someone who does not go with the community, an idiotace. And it was frowned upon. It was absolutely frowned upon. In Athens, again, you must go to Athens at some time in your life. What you can see is that the citizens in Athens spent the day outside all the time. There were stoas. There were lanais, as we would call it. And when I first came here to Hawaii, I remember going to the Fort Street Mall. And there were all these Filipino men. And they would sit there on the benches by rosses. And all day long, they would sit and they would talk. They would gossip. And that, to me, when I first came to Honolulu, it really made me feel that I was in Athens because people were walking around. You'd see people face to face. You'd bump into each other. And so, in a way, the Athenians were very gregarious. But if anyone didn't want to be part of that, people would be suspicious of that. What about public spaces? Public spaces, I have looked at materials covering public spaces in Rome, which you and I will have to talk about next time. But public spaces found to me very important in a community, in a country, in a culture like this, because you have that gregarious, face-to-face kind of experience, very healthy, very collaborative. And so, did they understand the value? I really appreciate they understood the value of plays. But what about public spaces as a place to gather and exchange ideas? Well, there was the agorah, the marketplace. And there would be fresh markets all over the agorah. And that's what people did. They just hung out in the agorah. Men, mostly, women, less so. Women were expected to stay at home. But there were other market women who would be able to practice their trade and so forth. So the agorah would have been a real, I think the agorah, when you think about it, when I think of Aloha Stadium, when you have the swap meet, that's what it would be, and that's what it would have been like. So here we are, we're at the top of the world, right? Am I right to say that there's really no place in Europe that is this socially advanced and these people are having, subject to a few problems that maybe they didn't see it as problems, but a few issues that we would see as issues now, they were leading a pretty good life. And person to person, it wasn't a bad time. And at least in substantial part, that was because they had a system in which they all participated or could participate. And we're gonna have to get off soon, but I wonder if you could sort of set the stage for us about how this healthy in moment in Greek history declined and how the ideas and to the extent the ideas passed to Rome, possibly through trade or through facilities and the Peloponnesian wars, what have you, how these ideas passed around the Mediterranean and wound up in Rome from Greece. And how long that took? Well, I think that I, how, let me see how I can answer this quickly. So Athens had developed a major empire in the Aegean Sea and around the Mediterranean. The Athenians had two wars against the Persians. And that then enabled the Athenians to build a massive fleet. I don't think I can do justice in such a short time. You just set the stage for us, that's all. Okay, so Athens grew because they had to build ships. And eventually the Athenians created an empire within the Aegean. Now the Aegean Sea has lots of islands, coastal areas on what's Turkey today. And so there were many polis on the eastern coast of the Aegean Sea as well. And so Athens created a fleet of ships called triremes. And with that, the Athenians were able to go shake down the smaller polis around the Aegean Sea. And so Athens became a major producer throughout the Aegean. And then when the Persians came in to try to take over Greece, those were the Persian wars. So Athens always looked to the sea to get what they needed.  So Athens had become the premier city around the Aegean Sea. And it stayed that way. In 432 BCE, one of the most amazing orders came to the Athenian assembly. And he, his name was Pericles, and he was the leader of Athens.  He wasn't a tyrant, he was the mouthpiece of Athens. And so that really became a hallmark of Athens. Athens came to be the place where the ideas were, where the ideas of whatever, what does Pericles say, he said, we are the school of Helos. And the school of Greece, and that came to be in later generations the memory of Athens. Pericles was the author of the beautiful Parthenon, or the, he didn't build the Parthenon, but he marshaled all the resources of Athens to build the temple of Athena on the Acropolis. And he also was the architect of building the fleets that enabled Athens to thrive. So- Why don't we leave it there, Sandy? Why don't we leave it there? Okay. That's a great place to leave it, because we have this sort of the top of the world moment for Greece under Pericles. And we're gonna address two questions. We're gonna address the question of how all of this was transferred to and to extent, accepted by Rome over a period of time. And also a bigger question for our next discussion, really important is some of these names are familiar. Which of these concepts, which of these social constructs that they somehow came together during the time of Greece and the time of Rome do we have in our society today? Wow. Okay, so let's schedule another show soon. I didn't want to try to cover too much today. I think we covered a lot of good stuff. Next time we'll go forward and cover more. Okay. Thank you so much. I'm in sports. Thank you so much. Aloha. Thank you.


With the peace officer program ended at 30 April, authorities confirmed that alternative options are under consideration for its wardens. For instance, the Commissioner of Police is considering appointing select wardens as reserves after special police constables in the service are upgraded to constables. In a Senate sitting 7 May 2021, Minister for National Security and Home Affairs Senator Honourable Herman Gill-Francis acknowledged the successes of the program since its operations began in December. He expressed hope that the remaining wardens can be incorporated into other relevant state services based on their performance in the COVID-19 response. This project was a several month project and because it was so successful that we had to be getting funds to be able to do it, Presidency has come to an end but the government is actively looking for the finances in ways of savings because there are positions where the police has to employ more police officers, more fire officers and so on. But we have recognized the importance of the COVID wardens and so we are making the relevant allocations available so that they can be paid. We don't want our persons employed on two, three months down the line, we are not paying them. We want to make sure that we pay them every month like any other civil servant. So this is the reason why the project has been shelved for a little while but we intend to continue. Thank you. Senator Honourable Herman Gill-Francis, Minister for National Security and Home Affairs. The senator returns to official duty after recovering from an asymptomatic bout of COVID-19 infection. He encourages the public to get vaccinated. Unfortunately, I give it to my dear wife and she suffered but I'm saying that because apparently we have taken the first dose of the vaccine, I think that helped her tremendously. And so I want to encourage all solutions to go and get vaccinated. This COVID thing is real. It is real. And so all of us, opposition and government and independent senators and everybody else, we have to make a considered effort of speaking to our people and telling the dangers of this COVID. We cannot force or we do not want to force. We do not want to take the way in which St. Vincent, Antigua and Trinidad is going as to be able to force people to go and get the vaccination. We don't want to do that.


Welcome to another episode of In the Zone. I'm your host, Chris Broussard. We've got another tremendous show for you as the NBA playoffs heat up. We've got Tim Hardaway, should be Hall of Famer from the 1990s, one of the best point guards of his era. He'll be joining me for my interview. But before that, we're going to start off, as always, with the top five postseason player power rankings. And at number five, a surprise, Kyle Corvert. That's right. I'm going to give the role player, the great shooter, some love after struggling in Boston. He was the Cavaliers second best player in the two games they won in Cleveland and even up the series. Average 14 points a game, shot nine of 12 from the field, including six of nine from three. And more than that, he played great defense. That's right. 37-year-old, slow-footed, athletically challenged. Kyle Corvert deed up. And that was critical to Cleveland getting back in the series. He blocked three shots in game four, including two on the ultra-athletic Jalen Brown. At number four, Jalen Brown. I know he got his shot blocked a couple of times by Kyle Corvert. I know Boston looked bad in Cleveland losing two games. I know Brown only had 10 points in game three, but he had 25 in game four. And the way he played in the second half, including the 15 points he had in the fourth quarter to get Boston back within striking distance, I think that may have given the Celtics momentum and hope as they head back to Boston for game five. So give it up to the young Jalen Brown, just 21 years of old, taking it by the reins and saying, look, I'm going to play with some grit. I'm going to get going in this second half to get my team ready for game five. And at number three, Chris Paul, CP3. CP3 has been maligned throughout his career for struggling at times in the clutch, but he came up big in one of the biggest moments of his career in game four in Oakland as the Rockets beat Golden State. Chris Paul was outstanding 27 points, including eight in the fourth quarter. James Harden looked winded, didn't really have it going offensively in the fourth, so Chris Paul stepped up and was absolutely tremendous and he did it all on a sore foot. Notice, you haven't heard about the foot. With Steph Curry, who I love, struggles, everybody blames it on his injuries, everybody blames it on the knee, but Chris Paul is playing on a bad wheel and he went out there and played tremendously to give the Rockets a chance to get back to the NBA finals. At number two, his teammate, James Harden. That's right, 30 points in game four. I know he struggled offensively down the stretch, but Harden has been great. Harden's reached a level where we're criticizing him for scoring 27 points and doing things like that. He's averaging 29 and a half points in this Western Conference final and people think he's struggling. He's doing it on 45 and a half percent shooting from the field. That's his most accurate, his best field goal percentage of any of his series in the playoffs this season. So Harden is getting it done and not only offensively, surprise, surprise, but in game four, he was outstanding defensively. That's right, he set the bar higher now. Nobody's gonna let him get away with those terrible defensive outings anymore. That Matador defense go by me, he showed in game four in Oakland that he can de-up when he wants to pick the pocket of Kevin Durant, made a few steals, got in people's way, did a good job on that end of the floor. That's why Harden is number two and at number one, LeBron James, and it ain't even close. LeBron James has been absolutely outstanding after getting an F from yours truly in game one against Boston. He has been tremendous, 37 and a half points a game in the last three games, 59% shooting and oh, outstanding, turn back the clock, throwback defense in games two and three, three and four in Cleveland, blocking shots, blocking passes, getting deflections, setting the tone for the oldest dirt, Cleveland Cavaliers to play great defense and win those two games in Cleveland to go back to Boston with a chance to return to the finals for the fourth straight year. LeBron James hands down the number one player in the post-season player power rankings. All right, we welcome in Tim Hardaway, five-time NBA All-Star, five-time All-NBA player and most recently was an assistant coach on Stan Van Gundy's staff in Detroit for the past few years. Tim, how you doing? I'm great, I'm great, I can't complain, man. Just comes from San Francisco, got inducted into the Bay Area Sports Hall of Fame and my family was dead, Mully and Mitch was dead, so we had a great time. Well, congratulations on that and I know your teammate Chris Mullen said that you should be in every Hall of Fame, meaning just the Bay Area Hall of Fame but the NBA Hall of Fame. What are your feelings on that? Mitch is in, Mitch Richmond, Chris Mullen, you haven't gotten in yet, most people think you're one of the greatest snubs ever to not be in the Hall of Fame but what are your feelings on it? Well, you know what? At first I was kind of upset at first and when I didn't make it the first couple of years and then I come to realize I have no control over that. You know, whoever got control over it, they got control over it and if they want me in, I get in but in that, I think nobody can really just push anybody's hand or try to make them do what they don't want to do. So I don't have no control over it. It is what it is when you just walk around the country and people say you should be in the Hall of Fame, basketball Hall of Fame and there's no doubt about it. You should be there and while you're not in there, I tell them the same thing. I have no control over it and we just move on and try to control what we can control and that's what I try to do. One thing a lot of people don't realize is that you made, as I mentioned, your five-time R-NBA and in 1997, you were first team and the first team was Grant Hill, Hakeem Melajuan, Carl Malone, Michael Jordan and you. I mean, that's a heck of a team.  Well, you know, right now, a lot of these guys, kids, we didn't play when it was all. Social media, we didn't even have NBA TV back in the day. So now they got it on YouTube and they gotta find us on YouTube, find us on different Google and all that type of stuff.  So, you know, you can't do nothing about it. You can't do nothing about it. Like say, you just move on, you know, kids, you hear kids talking about this person, talk about that person and I just laugh because there's no way that you can, first of all, I don't argue anymore, but you can't really make these guys or kids understand what we did back in the day because they weren't born back in the day. They live right now, they looking at LeBron, they looking at Chris Paul, they looking at James Hart, they was looking at Kobe, which they supposed to.  I was gonna ask you because you've been coaching, you coach Brandon Jennings, you got Reggie Jackson in Detroit, and obviously, you know, a lot of the current players, do they understand how good you were, not the fans, but the players?  You know, I just talked to them about, you know, we play a lot of one-on-one, a lot of these guys don't play a lot of one-on-one to get their games together, we play a lot of one-on-one, a lot of two-on-two, and we just played, you know, we didn't think about who was gonna win or how big was gonna beat us.  So, you know, just to chemistry and to camaraderie, that's why we played the game and after practice or worked on our game after practice to make each other understand if he plays this way, this is how we're going to go to the back door. If he plays this way, we're gonna face and come back for a dribble handoff. You know, I like to get the ball right here at the shoot at the three-point line or when I curl, I like to have him receive the ball here. So, you know, that's the tendency that we love to have going into games, knowing each other, you know, inside and out where we need the ball and how we need to score. So that, I mean, kids, they don't do that. But yeah, that's what I talk to them about. You know, you got to talk to your teammates. Don't be afraid to talk to your teammates. It's not a big, a lot of these guys take the criticism tough. It's constructive criticism, I tell them. You know, yeah, it's the heat of the battle, but it's always constructive criticism. Like Draymond Green, he gets on his guys but it's constructive criticism, you know. He's telling them what they need to do and how they need to do it for them to win a basketball game and his guys understand that. Most guys on other teams wouldn't understand that they go on the hole or they go on the shell and they'd be like, he's singing on me out. But no, that's the guy that wants to win and that loves to win. You mentioned the crossover a few times. You were known, I was known as your signature move. They called it the killer crossover. I remember in fact once I was talking on ESPN Sports Center about the greatest crossovers of all time and you texted me like, you better remember my crossover, so tell me about your move and who inspired it or what inspired it and how you kind of perfected it. Well, you know, coming out of high school, college, from the city of Chicago, you had to have a move. You had to have something and that's all we did was dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble to perfect the move. We played one-on-one constantly and back then, you know, it was hand checking, holding, grabbing, pushing, shoving. So you had to perfect the move to get by somebody and I just perfected the move. You know, I didn't know what I was doing at the time. I was just doing a move where I could just get to the rim and make a play for my team or myself and it developed, it really developed in college when we, you know, after practice, we would play one-on-one, two-on-two and I'd get to the rim very easily with that move and make a layup or get to the rim and pass it out to a team made for a jump shot.  But, excuse me.  Well, you know, Archie Griffin, longtime LA guy, went to the Philadelphia, I think I traced to Philly or New York but Archie Griffin, every time he's seen it, he lets me know about that. Yeah, you know, I had to cross over first and I was like, okay, Archie, the guys don't know about Archie Griffin. Y'all need to look him up. He had a nice crossover too. But you know what, I learned, my idol was Isaiah Thomas when I was growing up out of Sydney, Chicago and I built my game after his game. I just watched him, how he dribble the ball, how he studied people, how he mesmerized people before he, you know, he took the ball to the basket. He go left-hand, right-hand. A lot of people don't know that I used to dunk on a lot of people going to the rim. So, you know, I just out of my game and him just the toughness, just being small. I always have to shoot over people. People are always telling you that you can do this, you can do that. And I had to go out there and prove myself each and every night to show people and I had that confidence each and every night to prove to them that I can do whatever you say I can do. Shoot over, I came. Shoot over Patrick Hewitt. Shoot over anybody that I go to the hole against, you know, six feet, nine, 68, seven feet, it didn't matter. I just had to just show you that I can make a shot over the big fellers, floaters and all that.  I was like, wow, did you see that? He got real low across the guy over real low and he didn't put it between his legs, but he just faked one way and crossed him over. I started doing that, I couldn't do it that way. So, I put it in between my legs and just went in between my legs and did it that way. So, you know, that's how I perfected the real crossover then after I saw him. That was like my freshman year in college. But, you know, you just look at people and you pick up stuff from different people and take it to another level. Now, one guy, especially among the young people that's known for his crossover with Allen Iverson. You've been critical of Iverson's crossover though, saying it was basically a carry. Carry in the trap. You know, I never said nobody else I just came down and did.  I mean, it's not critical of nobody. I'm just telling the truth.  No, I'm not saying nothing negative or bad. I'm just saying mine was better than his. I came down. I didn't carry. I didn't set my man up. I just did it. It was in a Florida gang. That's all I'm saying. I'm not trying to criticize nobody. I'm not trying to be negative to nobody. I'm just telling the truth. And, you know, and people want me to get a truth. I'm just giving the truth out there. Now, the player's handles today are crazy. I mean, you got Tyree Irving, Steph Curry, Chris Paul, and all that. And I think one of the reasons that the handles are the way they are today is because they let dudes carry, which I don't think was going on in your day and before certainly. Is that, is that fair? I mean, are dudes basically carrying all the time? No question. No question.  Sometimes Kevin Durant gets a ball and he carries and he moves four or five steps into the into the lane, you know? Yeah, he carries the ball between the dribble. He has picked it up and moved his feet four or five times and then dribble again. We like, that's a carry ref. I mean, even though that's his move, that's what he's been doing, but that's still a carry. You know, Tyree Irving, he got handles, you know? Kimber Walker, he got handles, you know? Who else out there that got handles? It's over here without carrying it. He's over here without carrying it. Yeah, without carrying it. Chris Paul got handles without carrying. Sometimes, Jayne's hard, yeah, he does carry at times and he travels with the ball at times. So, I mean, but you know, it's hard to dictate what's a carry and what's not a carry until, because the refs are wrapped up in the game. They wrapped up in so much stuff. You know, they wrapped up in and who I gotta call a foul here. I gotta watch this guy pushing this way. They wrapped up in so much stuff, the referees. So, when it does happen, it happens real quick too. It happens real quick. And if you're not on it, you know, they won't call it. Like the other day, we's at the game and we saw Draymond Green double dribble. The ref called it three seconds late, but it was the correct call. And Draymond knew that he double dribble. So, I mean, sometimes that stuff happens so quick and the refs are getting back on defense and transition. They gotta watch what they're going through. They don't want to run over the coach or some of the players or any of the fans. And so, Dave, I mean, it's kind of tough. Now, I'll say Kairi has the best handle of all time. What do you think of that? Of all time? Now, he has nice handles. I mean, right now he has great handles. I mean, because let me tell you that you know, the rules are different today than they was when we played. So with his handles, you know, we would be able to get up into him and probably, you know, put our forearm into him and be more physical with him. All right? But I mean, you can hand check back then. Now you can hand check. So he's super dangerous now. You know, you can't even touch him.  No question is gonna be a foul. If I was playing this error and Isaiah with the handles that we had and Chris Jackson, I'd do right with the handles that we had. I mean, we would excel big time in this error. Yeah, I was gonna ask you that because, you know, people look at this as the era of the point guard because you got all these dudes putting up these all star numbers. And obviously you got some good point guards but I've always said, I'm not sure these guys are better than the point guards of the 90s or even the 80s but I just think when you played, you had a center or a power forward who was gonna score.  You had post players that scored. So there weren't a lot of point guards that were like the first option on their teams. Whereas nowadays, you don't really have that many bigs that score. So I think you got and point guards over dribble now. They dominate the ball a lot more than y'all did. Y'all dribble, like you said, y'all dribble with a purpose. It wasn't just 20 seconds dribbling and then either take a shot or pass to the man that's gonna shoot. So I think if y'all had played this way, y'all would have put up the same type of numbers that a lot of these guys are doing. Is that fair or not? That's fair.  I wanna say that when we played, we thought about, because the era and how we was hand-checked, we need to get there quick because we don't want nobody to hand-check us and get up into us and spears into ways where we didn't wanna go. So we had to make a move quick and do it quick and get to the hole quick. And when we dribbled, yes, we dribbled before purpose. We dribbled because the guy was going to do a cross screen and then we had to wait for the down screen to go get him and we had to throw it into the low post. You know, Don Nelson gave me a rule. He said, Tim, we know you can take your man every time. There's no question about that. But if there's not a fast break and you pitch it up, pitch it up, go through, let the ball swing, let everybody touch it. When you get it the second time, you can do whatever you want to. Then you can get the ball, you can dance a little bit, you can go ahead and do your thing. But he said, but you gotta swing the ball. I was like, okay, so I swung the ball and when I got the ball, and that's why I tell young guys today, I say, you don't always get the ball. The ball won't always find you. Once you give it up, the ball won't always find you. If you swing the ball, run the office and come back around on the other side, the ball won't find you. Once you find you, then you can do your thing because the defense is not geared up or set up to stop just you. And I think now the defense, now these guys, I geared to stop these guys because they want to want to ball dominant now. But I'm gonna tell you this, my dad told me this a long time ago. There's not no position on the court. Everybody is everybody. Everybody is one man, everybody's two man, everybody's three man. You just gotta perfect your game the way you need to perfect your game. All right, look at the Golden State Warriors. They got this, what you call it, something five, okay? They go out there, yeah, the half and the five. All of them guys are guards. They were not centers, okay? They play like, so there's Dream on Green play like a center. Anthony Davis play like a guard.   Everybody's game has to revolve around being a guard's game now.   I mean, a guard could post up, like I used to post up. A guard could post up anybody, but that don't mean that he asked him to shoot the ball just because he'd want to make a play. Dream on Green post up, he don't shoot the ball. He's letting the office run so he can make a play. So that's the way the game is today. Well, people debate what era, like, you know, the 90s when Jordan was dominant versus today's game. Which one is better? What are your thoughts on, you know, was the basketball better back when you played or is it better today? Well, you know what? We had to think the game back in the day because there was a legal defense, okay? And you couldn't go down and double team without the ball. You couldn't be in a zone without the ball. So I think today's game is just play, play, play, play, play, but back then it was a thinking game, you know?  Then you had to straddle jazz, how when you wanted to come down and double team and rotate and we could put bodies on people back then. You know, you could really, you know, if a guy come down a hole, you could really, you know, check them. That wasn't a foul. You know, it was running, I tell people it was running like a running back, running through the middle of the line, middle through the line. He had to protect himself. Every time you went through that lane, you pass the ball, you went through that lane. If you didn't protect yourself, you're real concerned. So, you know, it was totally different. It was totally different, but you know, I like the game the way it is today. You know, I like them running and gunning and shooting. I think sometimes some people shoot, you know, you're talking about a heat check. I think somebody shoot too much for a heat check, but you know, that's the way the game is today. And it's an enjoyable game. I mean, whoever gets hot at the right time in a course of a game, then you're in trouble. It's hard to stop them, especially, you know, like those say words or like Houston Rockets did last night. You know, they kept the pressure on them all night long. They kept the pressure on them. And that's what you got to do. And if the doves come out and you can sustain a third quarter, then you win the game. Now, there is a lot of great point guards in your era.  Who was the toughest guy for you to play against? Oh, man, you know, I called on Isaiah at the end of his career. Magic at the end. I wasn't sticking magic. He's six, nine.  And that's on Ross Strickland. Ross Strickland was one of the guys there with those stuff that was tough for me to guard because he had handles. He gets to the hole. He can make plays at the rim. But another guy, Kevin Johnson, he was very tough to guard, you know, coming down. They helped me. That was his problem. Right. That was his problem. He just couldn't stay healthy. But, you know, it was hard to guard him too when he was healthy. Those two guys gave me problems, you know, the glove, six, six, six, seven long arms. You know, when he was in it, he was in it. He picked you up for a court. It's a nation's defense to score, you know, with the best of them. So, you know, those three guys, I will say, gave me problems. And the two guards with the Knicks, you know, I wouldn't be giving them, they just do either. You know, we had some great battles with the Knicks. Now you're talking about. With Charlie Ward. With Charlie Ward and Chris with Chiles. Chris with Chiles. Okay. They're just physical and defending. They just physical and just defending and all that.  They worked me hard. And I love, you know, taking the challenge with them. And that's what made the rival so great between Miami Heat and Goats. They were, I mean, Miami Heat and New York Knicks. Yeah. Yeah. Now, when you played in Golden State, your teams were coached by Dian Nelson. A lot of people give Mike Dancehoney credit for kind of sparking this modern basketball era. But I know you feel like Dian Nelson gets flighted in that regard. No question. No question. Again, we're back to YouTube. We're back to social media, you know? The kids and everybody wasn't born and wasn't watching TV because we was on the West Coast. They didn't see us on the West Coast. What was that? NBC, Game of the Week. And then maybe Starden, EFT and Starden, that, you know, had us on TNT. No, it was TVS. I'm sorry, it was TVS. TVS, yeah. You know, so they really wasn't watching us. And on the West Coast, they was, you know, they wasn't up late at night at 10 30, 11 30, watching us play.  Tom Tober used to bring the ball up. That was our point forward or our point center. And we used to run offense with him just the way to go and stay worried, run offense now. And, you know, Dian Nelson don't get it just due because nobody really saw what he was trying to do. The same way, going to stay worried and Houston Rock is our plan today. That's the way we used to play. And we used to call it control chaos, you know, offense. People didn't know what we was doing. We just a motion. We just motion. We just moved without the ball, back screen, come up. You know, it was hard for them to switch because back then there was no switch.  Now, why didn't you guys switch? Why did you guys switch so much? Because of the positions? Because of the position. So say like a seven foot guy is not going to switch out on Magic Johnson and leave a six-five guy on the screen. You had to get over the screen. You had to push over the screen and play your man. You know?  Come on. Yeah. You know, that was unheard of because if they did switch out on me, like if you six, seven, six, eight, you switch out on me, we used to go to the back. But don't shoot no threes. Go to the back and make somebody help. Pass it. Pass it. Somebody's going to be open. And that's what we did. And so there was no switching. So that's why motion offense was good. You try to switch. We look back, even if you didn't try to switch, if your hair was turned back then, if your hair was turned, we've thrown bullets right past your ear or bounce past right past your leg for a layup. And that's what you got to have camaraderie. And that's why you got to know your teammates and what they're doing out there. Like don't say words. They know what they're doing. We knew what we was doing out there. You know, they slip a lot. We slipped a lot. So, you know, Dan Sony did, you know, the accolades or saying that he's the one that invented this. No, it was Don Nelson all day long. So if you, if those, some of those teams you had in Golden State, I mean, y'all won 55 games one year. You know, you have some success, but never could really get over the hump. If you took that team in today's era, how good do you think y'all would have been? We would have been real good because of the rules. The rules messed us up.  You had Mitch Guard, Sam Perkins at that time. Or you had Chris Mullingard, James Worthier, Sam Perkins. You know, Sam Perkins, Perkins said he left. You know, we switched off on Vladivost. He's seven feet. You know, the rules today would have definitely benefited us when we were played, if we was playing this era because we, that's the way we played. That's the way we tried to manipulate the rules. And we get caught on a lot of illegal defenses too.  But, you know, that was that era. We did some things in that era. And I think if we would have stayed together a long time, because, you know, we meditated Mitch to sack the billiards. But if we would have played together a long time, we had something going and we would have figured it out. Someway we would have figured it out how to get over that hump and make it work in our favor. But like you said, today's era, yeah, we would have fitted very well in this era. We probably wouldn't have been, we would have been right up at the top of the echelon in this era right now. What's your best Dian Nelson story?  All right, let whoever can make a half short, half court shot, there'd be no practice.  We had, we had, sometimes we had quizzes. All right, and you had to, everybody had to know how to draw on the board, the way a coach draws on the board and do, and draw up a play.   So, but this thing, so we used to practice this way because we had a bunch of plays and we had to know each other's position.  So we had, if we call it out of play, and if we didn't know that play, we had to run sprints. Wow. I mean, if one person messed up, we had to run sprints. So that's why we was in a game.  We knew exactly where we need to go, and the other team was confused. And they was like, well, what are y'all doing? I said, you understand in one second. And we just knew it. We didn't have to call the time now. So, you know, Don Nelson, he was very innovative. He knew the game. That said, now, he was always funny. And I saw him on the, in the pitch, you know, he lost all that weight. He's looking very good. He's living in Maui now.  And I always had love to have good time. Now, you also played a little bit with Luttrell Spreewell. You got any great stories about Spree? Spree? Spree was fun. Spree never touched the basketball all summer long. I've never seen this before. Never touched the basketball all summer long. And then come to practice. First day of practice, no came and shot with us and nothing like that. Came in first day of practice and it looked like he played all summer long. Worked on his game all summer long. I mean, he was just, he was just, we call him Gazelle. He always was in shape. Good guy, always good guy, always loved to play when he came to the gym. Got there early, worked on his game, stayed sometimes late, worked on his game.  He loved electronics. He loved his, he loved diagramming, you know, hit rims and all that type of stuff. He loves, he loves fast cars. I'll tell you one story that he, we was inside, we inside the arena in the locker room. He parked his car where the guys parked their car right now, but the locker room was over the same way. We could hear Luttrell coming in from outside because that's how loud his music was. He's like, are you deaf? He's like, no, I can just fine. I mean, he just played his music loud all the time. I'm like, I can hear his music at times when I was on the plane and I can get hear his music through his, through his headphones.  Yeah, but not Luttrell. He's, you know, it's funny stories that we got to keep inside. Can't a lot of things you can't say. Now you were involved, well, let me say this because I know your career stats are like almost 18 points a game and over eight assists a game. But when I look at your numbers, your best seasons statistically were all like your second, third and fourth seasons, I think. Before you had a knee injury, you had a serious knee injury and missed the 93, 94 season. Did that injury take anything out of you? You still had some great years after that, but did that take anything out of you? It did, the first couple of years it did. And then, you know, not playing minutes, well, getting some playing time when Rick Adamman came in kind of hurt me too because I knew I could still play this game. And I think a lot of people thought I was finished. I knew I wasn't finished, I knew that I could still play. So they traded me to Miami Heat and it went from there. And I tell folks, it's not, I don't think it's probably one other person that made all-star team that had a fatal injury like I did at ACL and that was Bernard King. He came back and went to one all-star game. I came back and went to three all-star games after that injury and, you know, all NBA team, first team and second team. And yeah, first team and second team after that. So, you know, I knew what I could do.  And, you know, another coach just gave me the keys to the car and told me to drive it. So, you know, I had- What was that like playing for Riley? Cause I know he was hard on dude, especially coming from Don Nelson, where he was probably easier on players. Well, yeah, you know, no, I'm gonna tell you this. Now he wasn't that easy on players now. He was using stuff on players too. I mean, at times he knew what to get on you and then but now he was laid back. Then he was prepared, just like Pat Rowley, always prepared, always know what he wants, always know what his team needs.  Now, you know, it was a lot of learning going into that. You know, you're looking at Sam, you're not on your feet for three, four hours.  We were watching Sam. We was talking about a lot of things where we could do, where we shouldn't do, how we should play, play this way, that way.  No, no, no, no. I asked Pat one day, I said, well, why don't we practice for two and a half hours? He said the game is two and a half hours. I was like, okay, that's self-explanatory right there.   So we was all, our whole team was ready to play whoever you put in the team on me on the court at a particular time, let's play. But we was always well prepared. I liked it, you know, it was, because I grew up that way. I grew up bumping, grinding, physical, playing hard in the trenches. I grew up that way in Chicago. And, you know, it was great for me. I loved it. I loved being, you know, prepared each and every day. I love practicing, working on our games.    He wants you to be at the optimum shape.  You won't get hurt.  So that's what you want you to be. And that's what, that's what we was. And I had no gripes about it. I enjoyed. Now he was known for motivating, motivating players. Like his pre-game speeches, sometimes he'd use props and do crazy stuff. What was kind of the most, the craziest thing he did in a pre-game speech, which are? Well, you know, after the game, he did, you know, before games, pre-game speeches was, he got me hyped.  But he won pre-game speech. He was talking about, you know, so many, but he was talking about how the Lakers and, you know, got to game seven with the ball to Celtics and everything. And he said that, you know, before that game, Kareem, you know, he got killed. You could tell Kareem didn't want to hear it. He didn't want to hear nothing, nothing, nothing.  And you could tell that they were so focused that whatever he was talking about or about to say, he didn't say, but at that particular game. But he said, he was talking anyway. And, you know, he knew at that particular time, he was like, I don't need to, I need to stop talking and just let them go out there and play. And they went out there and played and they won. That's the game they won. Another thing, another game, he said, Tim, he said, we got all that traded there. We all went to our different respectable other teams and won. I went to go to state one, Dan Marley went to Phoenix and won. Zo went to Charlotte and won. We went to, what else we went to? We went to a couple of places and won. And we in New York, and you could tell, he really won this game. He said, Tim, just go out there and tell the fellas, you know, get this one for me. I said, all right, I got you. We went out there. That thing we bought about like 20. And you could just tell in his eyes that he was loving that, you know, and that's what we did for each other, man. It was like family there. We just played and, you know, he had everything for us. He had everything for us there. Massages, you know, whatever we needed to stay healthy and stay ready, that's what he does for you and his teammates. He loves his teammates. That's why he don't like to make changes. You don't see him making changes. You know, he loves his team right there. He always believes that they don't do the job and that's the way he believes.  He wouldn't trust you if he wasn't there. If you wasn't there, he wouldn't trust you. I mean, if he was there, he trusts you. He got to trust you because he brought you there. So that's what I know about him. Your rivalries, you mentioned the Knicks, that was your greatest rivalry when you were in Miami. Tell me something about those series that we don't know. Those were the rivalries, I should say that, rivalry. Ah, man, it was crazy, man. It was crazy. We as probably two guys loved each other. That was Pat and Zo. Everybody else on each team hated each other. I mean, we're a few each other at a restaurant during the summer, we wouldn't speak to one another. We wouldn't talk to one another. We wouldn't shake each other's hands. If we did, it was phony. It was just that type of rivalry. Sometimes, I think sometimes today, some of those guys and us, we still had grudges with each other, I think. And that's a shame to say, but that's the way the game was.  Like any teams you had rivalries, was that how it was? Cause obviously it's not like that today. No, it wasn't like every team had that. That was just the heat in the mix because I think they, you know, what happened with Pat leaving there, coming to Miami, that was the whole thing. And they took a section of that.  Excuse me, whichever way they wanted to. And, you know, physically and mentally, we wasn't having it, you know, we wasn't having it. We just had a nastier attitude just like they did. So that's why the hard fault games was hard fault games. And, you know, each and every game was hard fault. You might blow the team out here and there, but in the playoffs, yeah, everybody's playing hard and wanted to win and wanted to destroy you. Yeah, those were some hard fault games. I remember Jeff Van Gundy grabbing onto the leg of Alonso, Courtney, I think Zoë and Larry Johnson, it was getting into it. What was that, take me through that story, that game, that was crazy. Man, that was crazy. That was crazy, man. That was really crazy. We still trying to figure out why that happened.  It was going on because Patrick couldn't play because he was hurt at that particular time. And I think the most physical guy that could play offensively and defensively against Zoë was Larry Johnson at that particular time. So Larry played what's playing as Zoë and he was being physical with Zoë.   Both of them was into each other, both of them was following each other and the refs just let it go, let it go, let it go, and game five, game six, that's the way it was. They just went at it. And they both really just lost their minds, basically. And then you had Jeff and Gunby. I think he didn't realize what he was doing because now you don't go after the other guy or another team.  He went after Zoë and he, you know what? He even came out, that was foolish of him because he could not only hurt himself but he could have hurt Zoë too.  And actually, that really stopped the fight because everybody was like, what are you doing, Jeff? Everybody laughing at him. Yeah, everybody laughing at him. What are you doing, Jeff? When you saw him on Elizo's leg. That's the way I was. I'm like, what are you doing? You can hurt him. What are you doing? You trying to tackle him? What are you doing? I don't, you know, what are you doing?  You lose your mind. And the first thing the reaction is, let me stop him from fighting my player. And like I said, he probably didn't wanna get hit. So at first he tried to grab him by the waist and he just slipped and fell and landed on his legs and kept holding his legs. So that's what probably happened. If a tag team match, Patrick Ewing and Charles Oakley against Elizo and PJ Brown, who wins that?  So they not, they not gonna do that. The ones that really gonna be going at it. And they, and you know what? They love each other too, is PJ and Oak. So they're just friends now too. So yeah, they're good friends now too. So, you know, you never, you actually never seen them for getting into any type of stuff. You never seen, they just play hard against one another. So, you know, it was, it was, it was always something else. But them four never, they just played hard. They bang, bang, bang, push, push, push, fault and play the game the way it was. Slap down, gave you hard fouls, but they never got into a shallowing match. They never, you know, got into a track talking match. They never did.  He kind of had been a mentor to Zo and cause I thought y'all had better teams but they would beat y'all a lot in the playoffs, you know, like, did you feel that way too? Right, yeah, yeah. You know, Patrick, he made timely shots and made timely moves at the end of ball games to put them up. You know, just like Alan Houston making that shot, you know, it hits around five times before he can go in. You know, they always made the timely moves at the end of the ball games to beat us. But we, you know, we put ourselves in that predicament because we could have went down on the other hand and made shots too. So, but we was up or was tied up, whatever. But yeah, Patrick, when you seven feet, even though you 6'10", 6'11", and you the best shot block in the NBA, seven feet is still seven feet. And Patrick was seven feet.   But he was just a little bit taller in there.  So you see him close up. Everybody debates, which one's better? Which one's the goat? Where do you stand on that discussion, LeBron versus Michael? You know, it's no choice. To me is Michael, you know. To me is Michael.  It's gonna always be Michael because I played against him, you know. And I've taken nothing away from LeBron. LeBron, my God, love watching him play.  You know, you know, he's 69 and he could control the game just like Magic Johnson could. He's got a better jumping than Magic.   His era was different from this era. And, you know, we would never, we would never see him go against each other. We would never see that happen. We'd always speculate. But, you know, and if you've got to understand, Michael came in after his sophomore year. LeBron came in after high school. So LeBron got two more years ahead of Michael. I think George might even, I think he played three. I think he was after his junior year. Yeah, yeah. You know what it was after his junior year. Yeah, exactly, junior, I'm sorry. So LeBron got three more years in the NBA ahead of George. So a lot of people don't put that in perspective either. So there's a lot of things that go into that longevity, you know, you know, and Michael was hurt for a year too. You know, he was out for a whole year before.  So, you know, there's a lot of things going into that. But, you know, me, it's going to always be Michael and that ever. So before you go, I want to ask you about what's going on now in the NBA with the playoffs. Who do you have in the East? Do you think LeBron gets the finals again or you think Boston can pull this out? I'll tell you this, man. If you get to game seven, you can't bet against LeBron to me. It gives a game seven with these guys, how young these guys are in Boston. I think that I wouldn't bet against LeBron in game seven. So I think these next two games, especially for the Boston Celtics are very, very critical. These next two games, they got to win tonight. They got to win tonight. It's like a fresh game night. They lose tonight, it's over with. So, you know, I think LeBron is going to make it to the finals, but I don't think that he's going to have enough to beat either Golden State or Houston. I just don't get the team. Who do you like in that series, Golden State? I like Golden State. I like Golden State.  You know, he does a lot of things out there on the basketball court. I'm not talking about scoring.  That really hurt him not being there because they had to play a lot of minutes. Those guys had to play a lot of minutes. And, you know, it was just tough on them. It was tough on them last night, but I think they, but if, like I always say, Golden State, all of them got to stay healthy. All of them. They've got to stay healthy. If they don't stay healthy, they don't win. They don't win. So, but if they stay healthy, if they're healthy, they win. They win this. But, you know, now the momentum is back. I think in Houston's court, they just got to come out and play like they wanted instead of, you know, being lackadaisical. I think they get, if Houston come out and play harder and play like the way they did last night, tomorrow, they can get their game tomorrow, but they got to come out and not be lackadaisical, not be, you know, pass up and, you know, not what's, don't know what's going on.  I wanted to ask you before, before you go, cause you mentioned Chris Jackson early, Mack Mood, Abdul Rahul earlier, in his handle and all that. Phil Jackson said a few years ago, he compared Steph to Chris Jackson or Mack Mood. And people, people kind of mocked him like, man, that's crazy. But you played against Mack Mood. Do you think that was a fair comparison? Like in today's NBA, do you think he could have been a Steph Curry? I'm on, see, they, I don't think everybody understand and what Phil Jackson is saying. We talking about the quick release, but Mood had a quick release. He had come off right off the drill, Mood and gone, the ball was gone and it was all net. Same way with Steph. He had come off, and next thing you know, he's shooting the ball real quick. Before you get a hand up, the ball is in the rim already, in the hoop already. That's what Phil Jackson was saying. Phil Jackson saying he got Mack Mood had handled and he gets that ball up very, very quick and he can stop on the dime and shoot it on the dime. That's what that reminds Steph Curry of Mack Mood. That's the way Steph Curry comes down. He comes down, he might do a move, put it between his legs and then stop and pop.  That's the way Mack Mood did too. That's, see, people get upset about him or Mood. Well, he wasn't doing this, he wasn't doing that and didn't get off to something else. Now, we're talking about the quick release because yes, both of them had a quick release. Mack Mood had won the quickest release in NBA history before Steph came into the league and now Steph has the same type of release. Mack Mood has, when he was stopping and popping and coming off the dime and shooting the ball and you didn't know what he was going to do. You know, because he was trying to guard him. No, go ahead.   He'll just stop and shoot it. So that's the quick release we're talking about. He, I think that Phil Jackson was talking about. Do you ever envy today's guards?  Do you ever envy a wish man? If I played in this era, I'd be putting up 10 threes a game, you know, to me and stuff like that. Right, right.  I could have put up 10 threes a game if I wanted to, but I had other teammates to get the ball to. I get, you know, I want, I need to get my other teammates involved. You know, I had to get the Sean Lennon involved. I had to get Dan Marley involved. I had to get, you know, Mitch and Chris and Rod Higgins involved. I had to get PJ Brown involved. That's the way the game was. Then I had to get those people involved and make sure that they was happy. So they go down on the other end and do what we asked them to do on defense. You know, they was guarding the hardest people. They were sticking the hardest people. So I need them to be happy. So I had to get them a ball, you know? But I don't, you know, I don't envy them. I love it. Okay, you're true. I love watching, I love watching it happen because it's really just street basketball and it's Emanuel Emanuel and pick up basketball, I shouldn't say street basketball. I say pick up basketball, it's Emanuel Emanuel.  And that's the way it is. But it's very interesting. It's very interesting and I like it. Sometimes the guys hold onto the ball too much. I wish they had passed it and then get it back. Well, in that, you know, yeah. Yeah, I want, you know, I love it. Great, great. Tim, man, I appreciate your time. Great stuff, man. And thanks a lot for joining in the zone. Hey, no, thank you for having me anytime, Chris.  All right, brother, cool. Thanks, man. All right, thank you.