d what numberless and powerful causes tend to destroy these rare natures what causes in the first place there are their own virtues their courage temperance and the rest of them every one of which praise worthy qualities and this is a most singular circumstance destroys and distracts from philosophy the soul which is the possessor of them that is very singular he replied then there are all the ordinary goods of life beauty wealth strength rank and great connections in the state you understand the sort of things these also have a corrupting and distracting effect i understand but i should like to know more precisely what you mean about them grasp the truth as a whole i said and in the right way you will then have no difficulty in apprehending the preceding remarks and they will no longer appear strange to you and how am i to do so he asked why i said we know that all germs or seeds whether vegetable or animal when they fail to meet with proper nutriment or climate or soil in proportion to their vigor are all the more sensitive to the want of a suitable environment for evil is a greater enemy to what is good than to what is not very true there is reason in supposing that the finest natures when under alien conditions receive more injury than the inferior because the contrast is greater certainly and may we not say at amantus that the most gifted minds when they are ill educated become preeminently bad do not great crimes and the spirit of pure evil spring out of a fullness of nature ruined by education rather than from any inferiority whereas weak natures are scarcely capable of any very great good or very great evil there i think that you are right and our philosopher follows the same analogy he is like a plant which having proper nurture must necessarily grow and mature into all virtue but if sown and planted in an alien soil becomes the most noxious of all weeds unless he be preserved by some divine power do you really think as people so often say that our youths are corrupted by sophists or that private teachers of the art corrupt them in any degree worth speaking of are not the public who say these things the greatest of all sophists and do they not educate to perfection young and old men and women alike and fashion them after their own hearts when is this accomplished he said when they meet together and the world sits down at an assembly or in a court of law or a theater or a camp or in any other popular resort and there is great uproar and they praise some things which are being said or done and blame other things equally exaggerating both shouting and clapping their hands and the echo of the rocks and the placing which they're assembled redoubles the sound of the praise or blame at such a time will not a young man's heart as they say leap within him will any private training enable him to stand firm against the overwhelming flood of popular opinion or will he be carried away by the stream will he not have the notions of good and evil which the public in general have he will do as they do and as they are such will he be yes Socrates necessity will compel him and yet I said there is a still greater necessity which has not been mentioned what is that the gentle force of attainder or confiscation or death which as you are aware these new sophists and educators who are the public apply when their words are powerless indeed they do and in right good earnest now what opinion of any other sophist or of any private person can be expected to overcome in such an unequal contest none he replied no indeed I said even to make the attempt is a great piece of folly then either is nor has been nor is ever likely to be any different type of character which has had no other training in virtue but that which is supplied by public opinion I speak my friend of human virtue only what is more than human as the proverb says is not included for I would not have you ignorant that in the present evil state of governments whatever is saved and comes to good is saved by the power of God as we may truly say I quite assent he replied then let me crave your assent also to a further observation what are you going to say why that all those mercenary individuals whom the many call sophists and whom they deem to be their adversaries do in fact teach nothing but the opinion of the many that is to say the opinions of their assemblies and this is their wisdom I might compare them to a man who should study the tempers and desires of a mighty strong beast who is fed by him he would learn how to approach and handle him also at what times and from what causes he is dangerous or the reverse and what is the meaning of his several cries and by what sounds when another utter them he is soothed or infuriated and you may suppose further that when by continually attending upon him he has become perfect in all this he called his knowledge wisdom and makes of it a system or art which he proceeds to teach although he has no real notion of what he means by the principles or passions of which he is speaking but calls this honourable and that dishonourable or good and evil or just or unjust all in accordance with the tastes and tempers of the great brute good he pronounces to be that in which the beast delights and evil to be that which he dislikes and he can give no other account of them except that the just and noble are the necessary having never himself seen and having no power of explaining to others the nature of either all the difference between them which is immense by heaven would not such a one be a rare educator indeed he would and in what way does he who thinks that wisdom is the discernment of the tempers and tastes of the motley multitude whether in painting or music or finally in politics differ from him whom i have been describing for when a man consorts with the many and exhibits to them his poem or other work of art or the service which he has done the state making them his judges when he is not obliged the so-called necessity of diamede will oblige him to produce whatever they praise and yet the reasons are utterly ludicrous which they give in confirmation of their own notions about the honourable and good did you ever hear any of them which were not no nor am i likely to hear what you recognize the truth of what i've been saying then let me ask you to consider further whether the world will ever be induced to believe in the existence of absolute beauty rather than of the many beautiful or of the absolute in each kind rather than of the many in each kind certainly not then the world cannot possibly be a philosopher impossible and therefore philosophers must inevitably fall under the censure of the world they must and of individuals who consort with the mob and seek to please them that is evident then do you see any way in which the philosopher can be preserved in his calling to the end and remember what we were saying of him that he was to have quickness and memory and courage and magnificence these were admitted by us to be the true philosophers gifts yes will not such and one from his early childhood being all things first among all especially if his bodily endowments are like his mental ones certainly he said and his friends and fellow citizens will want to use him as he gets older for their own purposes no question falling at his feet they will make requests to him and do him honour and flatter him because they want to get into their hands now the power which he will one day possess that often happens he said and what will a man such as he is be likely to do under such circumstances especially if he be a citizen of a great city rich and noble and a tall proper youth will he not be full of boundless aspirations and fancy himself able to manage the affairs of helens and barbarians and having got such notions into his head will he not dilate and elevate himself in the fullness of vain pomp and senseless pride to be sure he will now when he is in this state of mind if someone gently comes to him and tells him that he's a fool and must get understanding which can only be got by slaving for it do you think that under such adverse circumstances he will be easily induced to listen far otherwise and even if there be someone who through inherent goodness or natural reasonableness has had his eyes opened a little and is humbled and taken captive by philosophy how will his friends behave when they think that they are likely to lose the advantage which they were hoping to reap from his companionship will they not do and say anything to prevent him from yielding to his better nature and to render his teacher powerless using to this end private intrigues as well as public prosecutions there can be no doubt of it and how can one who is thus circumstances ever become a philosopher impossible then were we not right in saying that even the very qualities which make a man a philosopher may if he be ill-educated divert him from philosophy no less than riches and their accompaniments and the other so-called goods of life we were quite right thus my excellent friend is brought about all that ruin and failure which i've been describing of the nature's best adapted to the best of all pursuits they are natures which we maintain to be rare at any time this being the class out of which come the men who are the authors of the greatest evil to states and individuals and also of the greatest good when the tide carries them in that direction but a small man never was the doer of any great thing either to individuals or to states that is most true he said and so philosophy is left desolate with her marriage right incomplete for her own having fallen away and forsaken her and while they are leading a false and unbecoming life other unworthy persons seeing that she has no kinsmen to be her protectors enter in and dishonour her and fasten upon her the reproaches which as you say her reprovers utter who affirm of her votaries that some are good for nothing and that the greater number deserves the severest punishment that is certainly what people say yes and what else would you expect I said when you think of the puny creatures who seeing this land open to them a land well stocked with fair names and showy titles like prisoners running out of prison into a sanctuary take a leap out of their trades into philosophy those who do so being probably the cleverest hands at their own miserable crafts for although philosophy be in this evil case still there remains a dignity about her which is not to be found in the arts and many are thus attracted by her whose natures are imperfect and whose souls are maimed and disfigured by their meannesses as their bodies are by their trades and crafts is not this unavoidable yes are they not exactly like a ball's little tinker who has just got out of endurance and come into a fortune he takes a bath and puts on a new coat and is decked out as a bridegroom going to marry his master's daughter who is left poor and desolate a most exact parallel what will be the issue of such marriages will they not be vile and bastard there can be no question of it and when persons who are unworthy of education approach philosophy and make an alliance with her who is a rank above them what sorts of ideas and opinions are likely to be generated will they not be sophisms captivating to the ear having nothing in them genuine or worthy of or akin to true wisdom no doubt he said then adamantus i said the worthy disciples of philosophy will be but a small remnant perchance some noble and well educated person detained by exile in her service who in the absence of corrupting influences remains devoted to her or some lofty soul born in a mean city the politics of which he contends and neglects and there may be a gifted few who leave the arts which they justly despise and come to her or by adventure there are some who are restrained by our friend the aegis bridle for everything in the life of the aegis conspired to divert him from philosophy but ill health kept him away from politics my own case of the internal sign is hardly worth mentioning for rarely if ever has such a monitor been given to any other man those who belong to this small class have tasted how sweet and blessed a possession philosophy is and have also seen enough of the madness of the multitude and I know that no politician is honest nor is there any champion of justice at whose side they may fight and be saved such a one may be compared to a man who has fallen among wild beasts he will not join in the wickedness of his fellows but neither is he able singly to resist all their fierce natures and therefore seeing that he would be of no use to the state or to his friends and reflecting that he would have to throw away his life without doing any good either to himself or others he holds his peace and goes his own way he is like one who in the storm of dust and sleep which the driving wind hurries along retires under the shelter of a wall and seeing the rest of mankind full of wickedness he is content if only he can live his own life and be pure from evil or unrighteousness and depart in peace and goodwill with bright hopes yes he said and he will have done a great work before he departs a great work yes but not the greatest unless he finds a state suitable to him for in a state which is suitable to him he will have a larger growth and be the saviour of his country as well as of himself the cause is why philosophy is in such an evil name have now been sufficiently explained the injustice of the charges against her has been shown is there anything more which you wish to say nothing more on that subject he replied end of book six part two book six part three of Plato's republic this is a LibriVox recording all LibriVox recordings are in the public domain for more information or to volunteer please visit LibriVox.org recording by Philippa the republic by Plato translated by Benjamin Joeet book six part three but i should like to know which of the government's now existing is in your opinion the one adapted to her not any of them i said and that is precisely the accusation which i bring against them not one of them is worthy of the philosophic nature and hence that nature is warped and estranged as the exotic seed which is sown in a foreign land becomes denaturalized and is won't to be overpowered and to lose itself in the new soil even so this growth of philosophy instead of persisting degenerates and receives another character but if philosophy ever finds in the state that perfection which she herself is then we'll be seen that she is in truth divine and that all other things whether natures of men or institutions are but human and now i know that you are going to ask what that state is no he said they were wrong for i was going to ask another question whether it is the state of which we are the founders and inventors or some other yes i replied ours in most respects but you may remember my saying before that some living authority would always be required in the state having the same idea of the constitution which guided you when as legislator you were laying down the laws that was said he replied yes but not in a satisfactory manner you frightened us by interposing objections which certainly showed that the discussion would be long and difficult and what still remains is the reverse of easy what is there remaining the question how the study of philosophy may be so altered as not to be the ruin of the state all great attempts are attended with risk hard is the good as men say still he said let the point be cleared up and the inquiry will then be complete i shall not be hindered i said by any want of will but if at all by a want of power my zeal you may see for yourselves and pleased to remark in what i'm about to say how boldly and unhesitatingly i declare that states should pursue philosophy not as they do now but in a different spirit in what manner at present i said the students of philosophy are quite young beginning when they are hardly past childhood they devote only the time saved from money making and housekeeping to such pursuits and even those of them who are reputed to have most of the philosophic spirit when they come within sight of the great difficulty of the subject i mean dialectic take themselves off in afterlife when invited by someone else they may perhaps go and hear a lecture and about this they make much ado for philosophy is not considered by them to be their proper business at last when they grow old in most cases they are extinguished more truly than heraclitus' son in as much as they never light up again heraclitus said that the sun was extinguished every evening and relighted every morning but what ought to be their course just the opposite in childhood and youth their study and what philosophy they learn should be suited to their tender years during this period while they are growing up towards manhood the chief and special care should be given to their bodies that they may have them to use in the service of philosophy as life advances and the intellect begins to mature let them increase the gymnastics of the soul but when the strength of our citizens fails and his past civil and military duties then let them range at will and engage in no serious labor as we intend them to live happily here and to crown this life with a similar happiness in another how truly in earnest you are Socrates he said I'm sure of that and yet most of your hearers if I'm not mistaken I like you to be still more earnest in their opposition to you and will never be convinced racymachus least of all do not make a quarrel I said between racymachus and me who have recently become friends although indeed we were never enemies for I shall go on striving to the utmost until I either convert him and other men or do something which may profit them against the day when they live again and hold the like discourse in another state of existence you are speaking of a time which is not very near rather I replied of a time which is as nothing in comparison with eternity nevertheless I do not wonder that the many refuse to believe for they have never seen that of which we are now speaking realized they have seen only a conventional imitation of philosophy consisting of words artificially brought together not like these of ours having a natural unity but a human being who in word and work is perfectly molded as far as he can be into the proportion and likeness of virtue such a man ruling in a city which bears the same image they have never yet seen neither one nor many of them do you think that they ever did no indeed no my friend and they have seldom if ever heard free and noble sentiments such as men utter when they are earnestly and by every means in their power seeking after truth for the sake of knowledge while they look coldly on the subtleties of controversy of which the end is opinion and strife whether they meet with them in the courts of law or in society they are strangers he said to the words of which you speak and this was what we foresaw and this was the reason why truth forced us to admit not without fear and hesitation that neither cities nor states nor individuals will ever attain perfection until the small class of philosophers whom we termed useless but not corrupt are providentially compelled whether they will or not to take care of the state and until alike necessity be laid on the state to obey them or until kings or if not kings the sons of kings or princes are divinely inspired with a true love of true philosophy that either or both of these alternatives are impossible I see no reason to affirm if they were so we might indeed be justly ridiculed as dreamers and visionaries am I not right quite right if then in the countless ages of the past or at the present hour in some foreign climb which is far away and beyond our ken the perfected philosopher is or has been or hereafter shall be compelled by superior power to have charge of the state we are ready to assert to the death that this our constitution has been and is yay and will be whenever the muse of philosophy is queen there is no impossibility in all this that there is a difficulty we acknowledge ourselves my opinion agrees with yours he said but do you mean to say that this is not the opinion of the multitude I should imagine not he replied oh my friend I said do not attack the multitude they will change their minds if not in an aggressive spirit but gently and with the view of soothing them and removing their dislike of over education you show them your philosophers as they really are and describe as you were just now doing their character and profession and then mankind will see that he of whom you are speaking is not such as they supposed if they view him in this new light they will surely change their notion of him and answer in another strain who can be at enmity with one who loves them who that is himself gentle and free from envy will be jealous of one in whom there is no jealousy nay let me answer for you that in a few this harsh temper may be found but not in the majority of mankind I quite agree with you he said and do you not also think as I do that the harsh feeling which the many entertain towards philosophy originate in the pretenders who rush in uninvited and are always abusing them and finding fault with them who make persons instead of things the theme of their conversation and nothing can be more unbecoming in philosophers than this it is most unbecoming for he adamantus whose mind is fixed upon true being has surely no time to look down upon the affairs of earth or to be filled with malice and envy contending against other men his eye is ever directed towards things fixed and immutable which he sees neither injuring nor injured by one another but all in order moving according to reason these he imitates and to these he will as far as he can conform himself can a man help imitating that with which he holds reverential converse impossible and the philosopher holding converse with the divine order becomes orderly and divine as far as the nature of man allows but like everyone else he will suffer from detraction of course and if a necessity be laid upon him or fashioning not only himself but human nature generally whether in states or individuals into that which he beholds elsewhere will he think you be an unskillful artificer of justice temperance and every civil virtue anything but unskillful and if the world perceives that what we are saying about him is the truth will they be angry with philosophy will they disbelieve us when we tell them that no state can be happy which is not designed by artists who imitate the heavenly pattern they will not be angry if they understand he said but how will they draw out the plan of which you are speaking they will begin by taking the state and the manners of men from which as from a tablet they will rub out the picture and leave a clean surface this is no easy task but whether easy or not herein will lie the difference between them and every other legislator they will have nothing to do either with individual or state and will inscribe no laws until they have either found or themselves made a clean surface they will be very right he said having affected this they will proceed to trace an outline of the constitution no doubt and when they are filling in the work as i conceive they will often turn their eyes upwards and downwards i mean that they will first look at absolute justice and beauty and temperance and again at the human copy and will mingle and temper the various elements of life into the image of a man and this they will conceive according to that other image which when existing among men homer calls the form and likeness of god very true he said and one feature they will erase and another they will put in until they have made the ways of men as far as possible agreeable to the ways of god indeed he said in no other way could they make a fairer picture and now i said we are beginning to persuade those whom you described as rushing at us with might and main that the painter of constitutions is such and one as we are praising at whom they were so very indignant because to his hands we committed the state and are they growing a little karma at what they've just heard much karma if there is any sense in them why where can they still find any ground for objection will they doubt that the philosopher is a lover of truth and being they would not be so unreasonable or that his nature being such as we have delineated is akin to the highest good neither can they doubt this but again will they tell us that such a nature placed under favorable circumstances will not be perfectly good and wise if any ever was or will they prefer those whom we have rejected surely not then will they still be angry at our saying that until philosophers bear rule states and individuals will have no rest from evil nor will this our imaginary state ever be realized i think that they will be less angry shall we assume that they are not only less angry but quite gentle and that they have been converted and for very shame if for no other reason cannot refuse to come to terms by all means he said then let us suppose that the reconciliation has been affected will anyone deny the other point that there may be sons of kings or princes who are by nature philosophers surely no man he said and when they have come into being will anyone say that they must of necessity be destroyed that they can hardly be saved is not denied even by us but that in the whole course of ages no single one of them can escape who will venture to affirm this who indeed but said i one is enough let there be one man who has a city obedient to his will and he might bring into existence the ideal polity about which the world is so incredulous yes one is enough the ruler may impose the laws and institutions which we have been describing and the citizens may possibly be willing to obey them certainly and that others should approve of what we approve is no miracle or impossibility i think not but we have sufficiently shown in what has preceded that all this if only possible is assuredly for the best we have and now we say not only that our laws if they could be enacted would be for the best but also that the enactment of them though difficult is not impossible very good and so with pain and toil we have reached the end of one subject but more remains to be discussed how and by what studies and pursuits will the saviours of the constitution be created and at what ages are they to apply themselves to their several studies certainly i omitted the troublesome business of the possession of women and the procreation of children and the appointment of the rulers because i knew that the perfect state would be eyed with jealousy and was difficult of attainment but that piece of cleverness was not a much service to me or i had to discuss them all the same the women and children are now disposed of but the other question of the rulers must be investigated from the very beginning we were saying as you will remember that they were to be lovers of their country cried by the test of pleasures and pains and neither in hardships nor in dangers nor at any other critical moment were to lose their patriotism he was to be rejected who failed but he who always came forth pure like gold tried in the refiner's fire was to be made a ruler and to receive honors and rewards in life and after death this was the sort of thing which was being said and then the argument turned aside and veiled her face not liking to stir the question which has now arisen i perfectly remember he said yes my friend i said and then i shrank from hazarding the bold word but now let me dare to say that the perfect guardian must be a philosopher yes he said let that be affirmed and do not suppose that there will be many of them for the gifts which were deemed by us to be essential rarely grow together they're mostly found in shreds and patches what do you mean he said you are aware i replied that quick intelligence memory sagacity cleverness and similar qualities do not often grow together and that persons who possess them and are at the same time high spirited and magnanimous are not so constituted by nature as to live orderly and in a peaceful and settled manner they are driven anyway by their impulses and all solid principle goes out of them very true he said on the other hand those steadfast natures which can better be depended upon which in a battle are impregnable to fear and immovable are equally immovable when there is anything to be learned they're always in a torpid state and are apt to yawn and go to sleep over any intellectual toil quite true and yet we were saying that both qualities were necessary in those to whom the higher education is to be imparted and who are to share in any office or command certainly he said and will they be a class which is rarely found yes indeed then the aspirant must not only be tested in those labours and dangers and pleasures which we mentioned before but there is another kind of probation which we did not mention he must be exercised also in many kinds of knowledge to see whether the soul will be able to endure the highest of all or both faint under them as in any other studies and exercises yes he said you are quite right in testing him but what do you mean by the highest of all knowledge you may remember I said that we divided the soul into three parts and distinguished the several natures of justice temperance courage and wisdom indeed he said if I have forgotten I should not deserve to hear more and do you remember the word of caution which preceded the discussion of them to what do you refer we were saying if I'm not mistaken that he who wanted to see them in their perfect beauty must take a longer and more secure at us way at the end of which they would appear but that we could add on a popular exposition of them on a level with the discussion which had preceded and you replied that such an exposition would be enough for you and so the inquiry was continued in what to me seemed to be a very inaccurate manner whether you were satisfied or not it is for you to say yes he said I thought and the other thought that you gave us a fair measure of truth but my friend I said a measure of such things which in any degree falls short of the whole truth is not fair measure for nothing imperfect is the measure of anything although persons are too apt to be contented and think that they need search no further not an uncommon case when people are indolent yes I said and there cannot be any worse fault in a guardian of the state and of the laws true the guardian then I said must be required to take the longer circuit and toil at learning as well as at gymnastics or he will never reach the highest knowledge of all which as we were just now saying is his proper calling end of book six part three book six part four of Plato's republic this is a lipovox recording all lipovox recordings are in the public domain for more information or to volunteer please visit lipovox.org recording by Anna Simon the republic by Plato translated by Benjamin Joett book six part four what he said is there a knowledge still higher than this higher than justice and the other virtues yes I said there is and of the virtues too we must behold not the outline merely as at present nothing short of the most finished picture should satisfy us when little things are elaborated with an infinity of paints in order that they may appear in their full beauty and utmost clearness how ridiculous that we should not think the highest truths worthy of attaining the highest accuracy a right noble thought but do you suppose that we shall refrain from asking you what is this highest knowledge nay I said ask if you will but I am certain that you have heard the answer many times and now you either do not understand me or as I rather think you are disposed to be troublesome for you have often been told that the idea of good is the highest knowledge and that all other things become useful and advantageous only by their use of this you can hardly be ignorant that of this I was about to speak concerning which as you have often heard me say we know so little and without which any other knowledge or possession of any kind will profit us nothing do you think that the possession of all other things is of any value if we do not possess the good or the knowledge of all other things if we have no knowledge of beauty and goodness assuredly not you are further aware that most people affirm pleasure to be the good but the final sort of wits say it is knowledge yes and you are aware too that the letter cannot explain what they mean by knowledge but are obliged after all to say knowledge of the good how ridiculous yes I said that they should begin by reproaching us with our ignorance of the good and then presume our knowledge of it for the good they define to be knowledge of the good just as if we understood them when they used the term good this is of course ridiculous most true he said and those who make pleasure their good are in equal perplexity for they are compelled to admit that there are bad pleasures as well as good certainly and therefore to acknowledge that bad and good are the same true there can be no doubt about the numerous difficulties in which this question is involved there can be none further do we not see that many are willing to do or to have or to seem to be what is just and honorable without the reality but no one is satisfied with the appearance of good the reality is what they seek in the case of the good appearance is despised by everyone very true he said of this then which every soul of man pursues and makes the end of all his actions having a presentiment there is such an end and yet hesitating because neither knowing the nature nor having the same assurance of this as of other things and therefore losing whatever good there is in other things of a principle such and so great as this or the best man in our state to whom everything is entrusted to be the darkness of ignorance certainly not he said i am sure i said that he who does not know how the beautiful and the just are likewise good will be but a sorry guardian of them and i suspect that no one who is ignorant of the good will have a true knowledge of them that he said is a shrewd suspicion of yours and if we only have a guardian who has this knowledge our state will be perfectly ordered of course he replied but i wish that you would tell me whether you can see if the supreme principle of the good to be knowledge or pleasure or different from either i i said i knew all along that a fastidious gentleman like you would not be contented with the thoughts of other people about these matters true socrates but i must say that one who like you has passed a lifetime in the study of philosophy should not be always repeating the opinions of others and never telling his own well but has anyone a right to say positively what he does not know not he said with the assurance of positive certainty he has no right to do that but he may say what he thinks as a matter of opinion and do you not know i said that all mere opinions are bad and the best of them blind you would not deny that those who have any true notion without intelligence are only like blind man who feel their way along the road very true and do you wish to behold what is blind and crooked and base when others will tell you of brightness and beauty still i must implore you socrates said glockon not to turn away just as you are reaching the goal if you will only give such an explanation of the good as you have already given of justice and temperance and yellow virtues we shall be satisfied yes my friend and i shall be at least equally satisfied but i cannot help fearing that i shall fail and that my indiscreet zeal will bring ridicule upon me no sweet sirs that is not at present ask what is the actual nature of the good for to reach what is now in my thoughts would be an effort too great for me but the child of the good who is likeest him i would faint speak if i could be sure that you wish to hear otherwise not by all means he said tell us about the child and you shall remain in our debt for the account of the parent i do indeed wish i replied that i could pay and you receive the account of the parent and not as now of the offspring only take however this letter by way of interest and at the same time have a care that i do not render a false account although i have no intention of deceiving you yes we will take all the care that we can proceed yes i said but i must first come to an understanding with you and remind you of what i've mentioned in the course of this discussion and at many other times what the old story that there is a many beautiful and a many good and so of other things which we describe and define to all of them the term many is applied true he said and there is an absolute beauty and an absolute good and of other things to which the term many is applied there is an absolute for they may be brought under a single idea which is called the essence of each very true the many as we say are seen but not known and the ideas are known but not seen exactly and what is the organ with which we see the visible things the sight he said and with the hearing i said we hear and with the other senses perceive the other objects of sense true but have you remarked that sight is by far the most costly and complex piece of workmanship which the artificer of the senses ever contrived no i never have he said then reflect as the ear or voice need of any third or additional nature in order that the one may be able to hear and the other to be heard nothing of the sort no indeed i replied and the same is true of most if not all the other senses you would not say that any of them require such an addition certainly not but you see that without the addition of some other nature there's no seeing or being seen how do you mean sight being as i conceive in the eyes and he who has eyes wanting to see color being also present in them still unless there be a third nature specially adapted to the purpose the owner of the eyes will see nothing and the colors will be invisible of what nature are you speaking of that which you term light i replied true he said noble then is the bond which links together sight and visibility and great beyond other bonds by no small difference of nature for light is their bond and light is no ignoble thing nay he said the reverse of ignoble and which i said of the gods in heaven what you say was the lord of this element who's is that light which makes the eye to see perfectly and the visible to appear you mean the sun as you and all mankind say may not the relation of sight to this deity be described as flows how neither sight nor the eye in which sight resides is the sun no yet of all the organs of sense the eye is the most like the sun by far the most like and the power which the eye possesses is a sort of effluence which is dispense from the sun exactly then the sun is not sight but the author of sight who is recognized by sight true he said and this is he whom i call the child of the good whom the good beget in his own likeness to be in the visible world in relation to sight and the things of sight what the good is in the intellectual world in relation to mind and the things of mind will you be a little more explicit he said why you know i said that the eyes when a person directs them towards objects on which the light of day is no longer shining but the moon and stars only see dimly and are nearly blind they seem to have no clearness of vision in them very true but when they are directed towards objects on which the sun shines they see clearly and there is sight in them certainly and the soul is like the eye when resting upon that on which truth and being shine the soul perceives and understands and is radiant with intelligence but when turned towards the twilight of becoming and perishing then she has opinion only and goes blinking about and is first of one opinion and then of another and seems to have no intelligence just so now that which imparts truth to the known and the power of knowing to the knower is what i would have you term the idea of good and this you will deem to be the cause of science and of truth in so far as the letter becomes a subject of knowledge beautiful too as are both truth and knowledge you will be right in esteeming this other nature as more beautiful than either and as in the previous instance light and sight may be truly said to be like the sun and yet not to be the sun so in this other sphere science and truth may be deemed to be like the good but not the good the good as a place of honor yet higher what a wonder of beauty that must be he said which is the author of science and truth and yet surpasses them in beauty for you truly cannot mean to say that pleasure is the good god forbid i replied but may i ask you to consider the image in another point of view in what point of view you would say would you not that the sun is not only author of visibility in all visible things but of generation and nourishment and growth though he himself is not generation suddenly in like manner the good may be said to be not only the author of knowledge to all things known but of their being and essence and yet the good is not essence but far exceeds essence in dignity and power glockens said with a ludicrous earnestness by the light of heaven how amazing yes i said and the exaggeration may be said down to you for you made me utter my fancies and pray continue to utter them at any rate let us hear if there is anything more to be said about the similitude of the sun yes i said there is a great deal more then omit nothing however slight i will do my best i said but i should think that a great deal will have to be omitted i hope not he said you have to imagine then that there are two ruling powers and that one of them is set over the intellectual world the other over the visible i do not say heaven lest you should fancy that i'm playing up on the name may i suppose that you have this distinction of a visible and intelligible fixed in your mind i have now take a line which has been cut into two unequal parts and divide each of them again in the same proportion and suppose the two main divisions to answer one to the visible and the other to the intelligible and then compare the subdivisions in respect of their clearness and want of clearness and you will find the first section in the sphere of the visible consists of images and by images i mean in the first place shadows and in the second place reflections in water and in solid smooth and polished bodies and the like do you understand yes i understand imagine now the other section of which this is only the resemblance to include the animals which we see and everything that grows or is made very good would you not admit that both the sections of this division have different degrees of truth and that the copy is to the original as a sphere of opinion is to the sphere of knowledge most undoubtedly next proceed to consider the manner in which the sphere of the intellectual is to be divided in what manner thus there are two subdivisions in a lower of which the soul uses the figures given by the former division as images the inquiry can only be hypothetical and instead of going upwards to a principle descends to the other end in the higher of the two the soul passes out of hypotheses and goes up to a principle which is above hypotheses making no use of images as in the former case with proceeding only in and through the ideas themselves i do not quite understand your meaning he said then i will try again you will understand me better when i've made some preliminary remarks you are aware that students of geometry arithmetic and the kindred sciences assume the odd and the even and the figures and three kinds of angles and alike in their several branches of science these are their hypotheses which they and everybody are supposed to know and therefore they do not deem to give any account of them either to themselves or others but they begin with them and go on until they arrive at last and in a consistent manner at their conclusion yes he said i know and do you not know also that although they make use of the visible forms and reasons about them they are thinking not of these but of the ideals which they resemble not of the figures which they draw but of the absolute square and the absolute diameter and so on the forms which they draw or make and which have shadows and reflection in water of their own are converted by them into images but they are really seeking to behold the things themselves which can only be seen with the eye of the mind that is true and of this kind i spoke at the intelligible although in the search after it the soul is compelled to use hypotheses not ascending to a first principle because she is unable to rise above the region of hypothesis but employing the objects of which the shadows below are resemblances in their turn as images they having a relation to the shadows and reflections of them a greater distinctness and therefore a higher value i understand he said that you are speaking of the province of geometry and the sister arts and when i speak of the other division of the intelligible you will understand me to speak of that other sort of knowledge which reason herself attains by the power of dialectic using the hypotheses not as first principles but only as hypotheses that is to say as steps and points of departure into a world which is above hypotheses in order that she may soar beyond them to the first principle of the whole and clinging to this and then to that which depends on this by successive steps she descends again without the aid of any sensible object from ideas through ideas and in ideas she ends i understand you he replied not perfectly for you seem to me to be describing a task which is really tremendous but at any rate i understand you to say that knowledge and being which the science of dialectic contemplates are clearer than the notions of the arts as they are termed which proceed from hypotheses only these are also contemplated by the understanding and not by the senses yet because they start from hypotheses and do not ascend to a principle those who contemplate them appear to you not to exercise the higher reason upon them although when a first principle is added to them they are cognisable by the higher reason and the habit which is concerned with geometry and the cognate sciences i suppose that you would term understanding and not reason as being intermediate between opinion and reason you have quite conceived my meaning i said and now corresponding to these four divisions let there be four faculties in the soul reason answering to the highest understanding to the second faith or conviction to the third and perception of shadows to the last and let there be a scale of them and let us suppose that the several faculties have clearness in the same degree that their objects have truth i understand you replied and give my assent and accept your arrangement end of book six book seven part one of playtoe's republic this is a libravox recording all libravox recordings are in the public domain for more information or to volunteer please visit libravox.org recording by lini the republic by playto translated by benjamin book seven part one and now i said let me show in a figure how far our nature is enlightened or unenlightened behold human beings living in an underground den which has a mouth open towards the light and reaching all along the den here they have been from their childhood and have their legs and necks chained so that they cannot move and can only see before them being prevented by the chains from turning around their heads above and behind them a fire is blazing at a distance and between the fire and the prisoners there is a raised way and you will see if you look a low wall built along the way like the screen which marionette players have in front of them over which they show the puppets i see and do you see i said men passing along the wall carrying all sorts of vessels and statues and figures of animals made of wood and stone and various materials which appear over the wall some of them are talking others silent you have shown me a strange image and they are strange prisoners like ourselves i replied and they see only their own shadows or the shadows of one another which the fire throws on the opposite wall of the cave true he said how could they see anything but the shadows if they were never allowed to move their heads and of the objects which are being carried in like manner they would only see the shadows yes he said and if they were able to converse with one another would they not suppose that they were naming what was actually before them very true and suppose further that the prison had an echo which came from the other side would they not be sure to fancy when one of the passers-by spoke that the voice which they heard came from the passing shadow no question he replied to them i said the truth would be literally nothing but the shadows of the images that is certain and now look again and see what will naturally follow if the prisoners are released and disabused of their error at first when any of them is liberated and compelled suddenly to stand up and turn his neck round and walk and look towards the light he will suffer sharp pains the glare will distress him and he will be unable to see the realities of which in his former state he had seen the shadows and then conceive someone saying to him that what he saw before was an illusion but that now when he's approaching nearer to being and his eyes turn towards more real existence he has a clearer vision what will be his reply and you may further imagine that his instructor is pointing to the objects as they pass and requiring him to name them will he not be perplexed will he not fancy that the shadows which he formally saw are truer than the objects which are now shown to him far truer and if he's compelled to look straight at the light will he not have a pain in his eyes which will make him turn away to take refuge in the objects of vision which he can't see and which he will conceive to be in reality clearer than the things which are now being shown to him true he said and suppose once more that he is reluctantly dragged up a steep and rugged ascend and held fast until he's forced into the presence of the sun himself is he not likely to be pained and irritated when he approaches the light his eyes will be dazzled and he will not be able to see anything at all of what are now called realities not all in a moment he said he will require to grow accustomed to the side of the upper world and first he will see the shadows best next the reflections of men and other objects in the water and then the objects themselves then he will gaze upon the light of the moon and the stars and the spangled heaven and he will see the sky and the stars by night better than the sun or the light of the sun by day certainly less of all he will be able to see the sun and not mere reflections of him in the water but he will see him in his own proper place and not in another and he will contemplate him as he is certainly he will then proceed to argue that this is he who gives the season and the years and is the guardian of all that is in the visible world and in a certain way the cause of all things which he and his fellows have been accustomed to behold clearly he said he would first see the sun and then reason about him and when he remembered his old habitation and the wisdom of the Dan and his fellow prisoners do you not suppose that he would felicitate himself on the change and pity them certainly he would and if they were in the habit of conferring honors among themselves on those who were quickest to observe the passing shadows and to remark which of them went before and which followed after and which were together and who were therefore best able to draw conclusions as to the future do you think that he would care for such honors and glories or envy the possessors of them would he not say with Homer better to be the poor servant of a poor master and to endure anything rather than think as they do and live after their manner yes he said I think that he would rather suffer anything than entertain these false notions and live in this miserable manner imagine once more I said such a one coming suddenly out of the sun to be replaced in his old situation would he not be certain to have his eyes full of darkness to be sure he said and if there were a contest and he had to compete in measuring the shadows with the prisoners who had never moved out of the den while his side was still weak and before his eyes had become steady and the time which would be needed to acquire this new habit of sight might be very considerable would he not be ridiculous man would say of him that up he went and down he came without his eyes and that it was better not even to think of ascending and if anyone tried to lose another and lead him up to the light let them only catch the offender and they would put him to death no question he said this entire allegory I said you may now append dear Glockon to the previous argument the prison house is the world of sight the light of the fire is the sun and you will not misapprehend me if you interpret the journey upwards to be the ascent of the soul into the intellectual world according to my poor belief which at your desire I have expressed whether rightly or wrongly God knows but whether true or false my opinion is that in the world of knowledge the idea of good appears less of all and is seen only with an effort and when seen is also inferred to be the universal author of all things beautiful and right parent of light and of the lord of light in this visible world and the immediate source of reason and truth in the intellectual and that this is the power upon which he who would act rationally either in public or private life must have his eye fixed I agree he said as far as I am able to understand you moreover I said you must not wonder that those who attain to this beatific vision are unwilling to descend to human affairs for their souls are ever hastening into the upper world where they desire to dwell which desire of theirs is very natural if our allegory may be trusted yes very natural and is there anything surprising in one who passes from divine contemplations to the evil state of man misbehaving himself in a ridiculous manner if while his eyes are blinking and before he has become accustomed to the surrounding darkness he is compelled to fight in courts of law or in other places about the images or the shadows of images of justice and is endeavoring to meet the conceptions of those who have never yet seen absolute justice anything but surprising he replied anyone who has common sense will remember that the bewilderment of the eyes are of two kinds and arise from two causes either from coming out of the light or from going into the light which is true of the mind's eye quite as much as of the bodily eye and he who remembers this when he sees anyone whose vision is perplexed and weak will not be too ready to laugh he will first ask whether that soul of man has come out of the brighter life and is unable to see because unaccustomed to the dark or having turned from darkness to the day is dazzled by excessive light and he will count the one happy in his conditioned state of being and he will pity the other or if you have a mind to laugh at the soul which comes from below into the light there will be more reason in this than in the laugh which grits him who returns from above out of the light into the den that he said is a very just distinction but then if I am right certain professors of education must be wrong when they say that they can put a knowledge into the soul which was not there before like sight into blind eyes they undoubtedly say this he replied whereas our argument shows that the power and capacity of learning exists in the soul already and that just as the eye was unable to turn from darkness to light without the whole body so too the instrument of knowledge can only by the movement of the whole soul be turned from the world of becoming into that of being and learn by the grease to endure the sight of being and of the brightest and best of being or in other words of the good very true and must there not be some art which will affect conversion in the easiest and quickest manner not implanting the faculty of sight for that exists already but has been turned into the wrong direction and is looking away from the truth yes he said such an art may be presumed and whereas the other so-called virtues of the soul seem to be akin to bodily qualities for even when they are not originally innate they can be implanted later by habit and exercise the virtue of wisdom more than anything else contains a divine element which always remains and by this conversion is rendered useful and profitable or on the other hand hurtful and useless did you never observe the narrow intelligence flashing from the keen eye of a clever rogue how eager he is how clearly his paltry soul sees the way to his end he's the reverse of blind but his keen eyesight is forced into the service of evil and his mischievous in proportion to his cleverness very true he said but what if there had been a circumcision of such natures in the days of their youth and they had been severeed from those central pleasures such as eating and drinking which like leaden weights were attached to them at their birth and which dragged them down and turned the vision of their souls upon the things that are below if I say they had been released from these impediments and turned in the opposite direction the very same faculty in them would have seen the truth as keenly as they see what their eyes are turned to now very likely yes I said and there is another thing which is likely or rather unnecessary inference from what has preceded that neither the uneducated and uninformed of the truth nor yet those who never make an end of their education will be able ministers of state not the former because they have no single aim of duty which is the rule of all their actions private as well as public nor the latter because they will not act at all except upon compulsion fencing that they are already dwelling apart in the islands of the blast very true he replied then I said the business of us who are the founders of the state will be to compel the best minds to attain that knowledge which we have already shown to be the greatest of all they must continue to ascend until they arrive at the good but when they have ascended and seen enough we must not allow them to do as they do now what do you mean I mean that they remain in the upper world but this must not be allowed they must be made to descend again among the prisoners in the den and partake of their labors and honors whether they are worth having or not but it's not this unjust he said ought we to give them a worse life when they might have a better you have again forgotten my friend I said the intention of the legislator who did not aim at making anyone class in the state happy above the rest the happiness was to be in the whole state and he held the citizens together by persuasion and necessity making them benefactors of the state and therefore benefactors of one another to this end he created them not to please themselves but to be his instruments in binding up the state true he said I had forgotten observe Glaucon that there will be no injustice in compelling our philosophers to have a cure and providence of others we shall explain to them that in other states men of their class are not obliged to share in the toils of politics and this is reasonable for they grow up at their own sweet will and the government would rather not have them being self-taught they cannot be expected to show any gratitude for a culture which they have never received but we have brought you into the world to be rulers of the hive kings of yourselves and of the other citizens and have educated you far better and more perfectly than they have been educated and you are better able to sharing the double duty where for each of you when his turn comes must go down to the general underground abode and get the habit of seeing in the dark when you have acquired the habit you will see 10 000 times better than the inhabitants of the den and you will know what the several images are and what they represent because you have seen the beautiful and just and good in their truth and thus our state which is also yours will be a reality and not a dream only and will be administered in a spirit unlike that of other states in which men fight with one another about shadows only and are distracted in the struggle for power which in their eyes is a great good whereas the truth is that the state in which the rulers are most reluctant to govern is always the best and most quietly governed and the state in which they are most eager the worst quite true he replied and will our pupils when they hear this refuse to take their turn at the toiles of state when they are allowed to spend the greater part of their time with one another in the heavenly light impossible he answered for they are just men and the commands which we impose upon them are just there can be no doubt that every one of them will take office as a stern necessity and not after the fashion of our present rulers of state yes my friend I said and there lies the point you must contrive for your future rulers another and a better life than that of a ruler and then you may have a well-ordered state for only in the state which offers this will they rule who are truly rich not in silver and gold but in virtue and wisdom which are the true blessings of life whereas if they go to the administration of public affairs poor and hungering after their own private advantage thinking that hence they are to snatch the chief good order there can never be for they will be fighting about office and the civil and domestic royals which does arise will be the ruin of the rulers themselves and of the whole state most true he replied and the only life which looks down upon the life of political ambition is that of true philosophy do you know of any other indeed I do not he said and those who govern ought not to be lovers of the task for if they are there will be rival lovers and they will fight no question end of book seven part one book seven part two of Plato's Republic this is a LibriVox recording all LibriVox recordings are in the public domain for more information or to volunteer please visit LibriVox.org recording by Linny the Republic by Plato translated by Benjamin Joe at book seven part two who then are those whom we shall compelled to be guardians surely they will be the men who are wisest about affairs of state and by whom the state is best administered and who at the same time have other honors and another in a better life than that of politics they are the men and I will choose them he replied and now shall we consider in what way such guardians will be produced and how they are to be brought from darkness to light as some are said to have ascended from the world below to the gods by all means he replied the process I said is not the turning over of a noister shell but the turning round of a soul passing from a day which is little better than night to the true day of being that is the ascend from below which we affirm to be true philosophy quite so and should we not inquire what sort of knowledge has the power of affecting such a change certainly what sort of knowledge is there which would draw the soul from becoming to being and another consideration has just occurred to me you will remember that our young men are to be warrior athletes yes that was sad then this new kind of knowledge must have an additional quality what quality usefulness in war yes if possible there were two parts in our former scheme of education were there not just so there was gymnastic which presided over the growth and decay of the body and may therefore be regarded as having to do with generation and corruption true then that is not the knowledge which we are seeking to discover no but what do you say of music which also entered to a certain extent into our former scheme music he said as you will remember was the counterpart of gymnastic and trained the guardians by the influences of habit by harmony making them harmonious by rhythm rhythmical but not giving them science and the words whether fabulous or possibly true had kindred elements of rhythm and harmony in them but in music there was nothing which tended to that good which you are now seeking you are most accurate I said in your recollection in music there certainly was nothing of the kind but what branch of knowledge is there my dear Glocken which is of the desired nature since all the useful arts were reckoned mean by us undoubtedly and yet if music and gymnastic are excluded and the arts are also excluded what remains well I said there may be nothing left of our special subjects and then we shall have to take something which is not special but of universal application what may that be a something which all arts and sciences and intelligences use in common and which everyone first has to learn among the elements of education what is that the little matter of distinguishing one two and three in a word number and calculation do not all arts and sciences necessarily partake of them yes then the art of war partakes of them to be sure then palamides whenever he appears in tragedy proves a commandant ridiculously unfit to be a general did you never remark how he declares that he had invented number and had numbered the ships and sat in array the ranks of the army at Troy which implies that they had never been numbered before and that amendment must be supposed literally to have been incapable of counting his own feet how could he if he was ignorant of number and if that is true what sort of general must he have been I should say a very strange one if this was as you say can we deny that a warrior should have a knowledge of arithmetic certainly he should if he is to have the smallest understanding of military tactics or indeed I should rather say if he is to be a man at all I should like to know whether you have the same notion which I have of this study what is your notion it appears to me to be a study of the kind which we are seeking and which leads naturally to reflection but never to have been rightly used for the true use of it is simply to draw the soul towards being will you explain your meaning he said I will try I said and I wish you would share the inquiry with me and say yes or no when I attempt to distinguish in my own mind what branches of knowledge have this attracting power in order that we may have clearer proof that arithmetic is as I suspect one of them explain he said I mean to say that objects of sense are of two kinds some of them do not invite thought because the sense is an adequate judge of them while in the case of other objects sense is so untrustworthy that further inquiry is imperatively demanded you are clearly referring he said to the manner in which the senses are imposed upon by distance and by painting in light and shade no I said that is not at all my meaning then what is your meaning when speaking of an inviting objects I mean those which do not pass from one sensation to the opposite inviting objects are those which do in this latter case the sense coming upon the object whether at a distance or near gives no more vivid idea of anything in particular then of its opposite an illustration will make my meaning clearer here are three fingers a little finger a second finger and a middle finger very good you may suppose that they are seen quite close and here comes the point what is it each of them equally appears a finger whether seen in the middle or at the extremity whether white or black or thick or thin it makes no difference a finger is a finger all the same in these cases a man is not compelled to ask a thought the question what is a finger for the site never intimates to the mind that a finger is other than a finger true and therefore I said as we might expect there's nothing here which invites or excites intelligence there is not he said but is this equally true of the greatness and smallness of the fingers can site adequately perceive them and is no difference made by the circumstance that one of the fingers is in the middle and another at the extremity and in like manner does the touch adequately perceives the qualities of thickness or thinness of softness or hardness and so the other senses do they give perfect intimations of such matters is not their mode of operation on this wise the sense which is concerned with the quality of hardness is necessarily concerned also with the quality of softness and only intimates to the soul that the same thing is felt to be both hard and soft you are quite right he said and must not the soul be perplexed at this intimation which the sense gives of a hard which is also soft what again is the meaning of light and heavy if that which is light is also heavy and that which is heavy light yes he said this intimations which the soul receives are very curious and required to be explained yes I said and in these perplexities the soul naturally summons to her aid calculation and intelligence that she may see whether the several objects announced to her are one or two true and if they turn out to be two is not each of them one and different certainly and if each is one and both are two she will conceive the two as in a state of division for if they were undivided they could only be conceived of as one true the eye certainly did see both small and great but only in a confused manner they were not distinguished yes whereas the thinking mind intending to light up the chaos was compelled to reverse the process and look at small and great as separate and not confused very true was not this the beginning of the inquiry what is great and what is small exactly so and thus arose a distinction of the visible and the intelligible most true this was what I meant when I spoke of impressions which invited the intellect or the reverse those which are simultaneous with opposite impressions invite thought those which are not simultaneous do not I understand he said and agree with you and to which class do unity and number belong I do not know he replied think a little and you will see that what has preceded will supply the answer for if simple unity could be adequately perceived by the side or by any other sense then as we were saying in the case of the finger there would be nothing to attract towards being but when there is some contradiction always present and one is the reverse of one and involves the conception of plurality then thought begins to be aroused within us and the soul perplexed and wanting to arrive at a decision asks what is absolute unity this is the way in which the study of the one has a power of drawing and converting the mind to the contemplation of true being and surely he said this occurs notably in the case of one for we see the same thing to be both one and infinite in multitude yes I said and this being true of one must be equally true of all number certainly and all arithmetic and calculation have to do with number yes and they appear to lead the mind towards truth yes in a very remarkable manner then this is knowledge of the kind for which we are seeking having a double use military and philosophical for the man of war must learn the art of number or he will not know how to array his troops and the philosopher also because he has to rise out of the sea of change and lay hold of true being and therefore he must be an arithmetician that is true and our guardian is both warrior and philosopher certainly then this is a kind of knowledge which legislation may fitly prescribe and we must endeavor to persuade those who are to be the principal man of our state to go and learn arithmetic not as amateurs but they must carry on the study until they see the nature of numbers with the mind only nor again like merchants or retail traders with a view to buying or selling but for the sake of their military use and of the soul herself and because this will be the easiest way for her to pass from becoming to truth and being that is excellent he said yes I said and now having spoken of it I must add how charming the science is and in how many ways it conduces to our desired end if pursued in the spirit of a philosopher and not of a shopkeeper how do you mean I mean as I was saying that arithmetic has a very great and elevating effect compelling the soul to reason about abstract number and rebelling against the introduction of visible or tangible objects into the argument you know how steadily the masters of the art repel and ridicule anyone who attempts to divide absolute unity when he's calculating and if you divide they multiply taking care that one shall continue one and not become lost in fractions that is very true now suppose a person were to say to them oh my friends what are these wonderful numbers about which you are reasoning in which as you say there is a unity such as you demand and each unit is equal invariable and divisible what would they answer they would answer as I should conceive that they were speaking of those numbers which can only be realized in thought then you see that this knowledge may be truly called necessary necessitating as it clearly does the use of the pure intelligence in the attainment of pure truth yes that is a marked characteristic of it and have you further observed that those who have a natural talent for calculation are generally quick at every other kind of knowledge and even the dull if they have had an arithmetical training although they may derive no other advantage from it always become much quicker than they would otherwise have been very true he said and indeed you will not easily find a more difficult study and not many as difficult you will not and for all these reasons arithmetic is a kind of knowledge in which the best natures should be trained and which must not be given up I agree let this then be made one of our subjects of education end of book 7 part 2 book 7 part 3 of Plato's republic this is a LibriVox recording all LibriVox recordings are in the public domain for more information or to volunteer please visit LibriVox.org recording by Linny the republic by Plato translated by Benjamin Joed book 7 part 3 and next shall we inquire whether the kindred science also concerns us you mean geometry exactly so clearly he said we are concerned with that part of geometry which relates to war for in pitching a camp or taking up a position or closing or extending the lines of an army or any other military maneuver whether in actual battle or in a march it will make all the difference whether a general is or is not a geometrician yes I said but for that purpose a very little of either geometry or calculation will be enough the question relates rather to the greater and more advanced part of geometry whether that tends in any degree to make more easy the vision of the idea of good and then as I was saying all things tend which compel the soul to turn her gaze towards that place where is the full perfection of being which she ought by all means to behold true he said then if geometry compels us to view being it concerns us if becoming only it does not concern us yes that is what we assert yet anybody who has the least acquaintance with geometry will not deny that such a conception of the science is in flat contradiction to the ordinary language of geometricians how so they have in view practice only and are always speaking in a narrow and ridiculous manner of squaring and extending and applying and the like they confuse the necessities of geometry with those of daily life whereas knowledge is the real object of the whole science certainly he said then must not a further admission be made what admission that the knowledge at which geometry aims is knowledge of the eternal and not of odd perishing and transient that he replied maybe readily allowed and is true then my noble friend geometry will draw the soul towards truth and create the spirit of philosophy and raise up that which is now unhappily allowed to fall down nothing will be more likely to have such an effect then nothing should be more sternly laid down then that the inhabitants of your first city should by all means learn geometry moreover the science has indirect effects which are not small of what kind he said there are the military advantages of which you spoke I said and in all departments of knowledge as experience proves anyone who has studied geometry is infinitely quicker of apprehension than one who has not yes indeed he said there is an infinite difference between them then shall we propose this as a second branch of knowledge which our youth will study let us do so he replied and suppose we'll make astronomy the third what do you say I am strongly inclined to it he said the observation of the seasons and of months and years is as essential to the general as it is to the farmer or sailor I am amused I said at your fear of the world which makes you guard against the appearance of insisting upon useless studies and I quite admit the difficulty of believing that in every man there is an eye of the soul which when by other pursuits lost and dimmed is by these purified and re-illumined and is more precious far than 10 000 bodily eyes for by it alone is truth seen now there are two classes of persons one class of those who will agree with you and will take your words as a revelation another class to whom they will be utterly unmeaning and will naturally deem them to be idle tales for they see no sort of profit which is to be obtained from them and therefore you had better decide at once with which of the two you are proposing to argue you will very likely say with neither and that your chief aim in carrying on the argument is your own improvement at the same time you do not grudge to others any benefit which they may receive I think that I should prefer to carry on the argument mainly on my own behalf then take a step backward for we have gone wrong in the order of the sciences what was the mistake he said after plain geometry I said we proceeded at once to solids in revolution instead of taking solids in themselves whereas after the second dimension the third which is concerned with cubes and dimensions of depth ought to have followed that is true socrates but so little seems to be known as yet about these subjects why yes I said and for two reasons in the first place no government patronizes them this leads to a want of energy in the pursuit of them and they are difficult in the second place students cannot learn them unless they have a director but then a director can hardly be found and even if he could as matters now stand the students who are very conceited would not attend to him that however would be otherwise if the whole state became the director of these studies and gave honor to them then disciples would want to come and there would be continuous and earnest search and discoveries would be made since even now disregarded as they are by the world and main of their fair proportions and although none of their votaries can tell the use of them still these studies force their way by their natural charm and very likely if they had the help of the state they would someday emerge into light yes he said there is a remarkable charm in them but I do not clearly understand the change in the order first you began with a geometry of plain surfaces yes I said and you placed astronomy next and then you made a step backward yes and I have delayed you by my hurry the ludicrous state of solid geometry which in natural order should have followed made me pass over this branch and go on to astronomy or motion of solids true he said then assuming that the science now omitted would come into existence if encouraged by the state let us go on to astronomy which will be forth the right order he replied and now socrates as he rebuked the vulgar manner in which I praised astronomy before my praise shall be given in your own spirit for everyone as I think must see that astronomy compels the soul to look upwards and leads us from this world to another everyone but myself I said to everyone else this may be clear but not to me and what then would you say I should rather say that those who elevate astronomy into philosophy appear to me to make us look downwards and not upwards what do you mean he asked you I replied have in your mind a truly sublime conception of our knowledge of the things above and I dare say that if a person were to throw his head back and study the fretted ceiling you would still think that his mind was the recipient and not his eyes and you are very likely right and I may be a simpleton but in my opinion that knowledge only which is of being enough the unseen can make the soul look upwards and whether a man games at the heavens or blinks on the ground seeking to learn some particular sense I would deny that he can learn for nothing of that sort is matter of science his soul is looking downwards not upwards whether his way to knowledge is by water or by land whether he floats or only lies on his back I acknowledge he said the justice of your rebuke still I should like to a certain how astronomy can be learned in any manner more conducive to that knowledge of which we are speaking I will tell you I said the starry heaven which would be whole is wrought upon a visible ground and therefore although the fairest and most perfect of visible things must necessarily be deemed inferior far to the true motions of absolute swiftness and absolute slowness which are relative to each other and carry with them that which is contained in them in the true number and in every true figure now these are to be apprehended by reason and intelligence but not by sight true he replied the spangled heavens should be used as a pattern and with a view to that higher knowledge their beauty is like the beauty of figures or pictures excellently brought by the hand of deadless or some other great artist which we may chance to behold any geometrician who saw them would appreciate the exquisiteness of their workmanship but he would never dream of thinking that in them he could find the true equal or the true double or the truth of any other proportion no he replied such an idea would be ridiculous and will not a true astronomer have the same feeling when he looks at the movements of the stars will he not think that heaven and the things in heaven are framed by the creator of them in the most perfect manner but he will never imagine that the proportions of night and day or of both to the month or of the month to the year or of the stars to these and to one another and any other things are material and visible can also be eternal and subject to no deviation that would be absurd and it is equally absurd to take so much pains in investigating their exact truth i quite agree though i never thought of this before then i said in astronomy as in geometry we should employ problems in that the heavens alone if we would approach the subject in the right way and so make the natural gift of reason to be of any real use that he said is a work infinitely beyond our present astronomers yes i said and there are many other things which must also have a similar extension given to them if our legislation is to be of any value but can you tell me of any other suitable study no he said not without thinking motion i said has many forms and not one only two of them are obvious enough even to with snow better than ours and there are others as i imagine which may be left to wiser persons but where are the two there's a second i said which is the counterpart of the one already named and what may that be the second i said would seem relatively to the ears to be what the first is to the eyes for i can see that as the eyes are designed to look up at the stars so are the ears to hear harmonious motions and these are sister sciences as the Pythagorean say and we often agree with them yes he replied but this i said is a laborious study and therefore we had better go and learn of them and they will tell us whether there are any other applications of these sciences at the same time we must not lose sight of our own higher object what is that there is a perfection which all knowledge ought to reach and which our pupils ought also to attain and not to fall short of as i was saying that they did in astronomy for in the science of harmony as you probably know the same thing happens the teachers of harmony compare the sounds and consonances which are heard only and their labor like that of the astronomers is in vain yes by heaven he said and is as good as a play to hear them talking about their condensed notes as they call them they put their ears close alongside of the strings like persons catching a sound from their neighbor's wall one side of them declaring that they distinguish an intermediate note and have found the least interval which should be the unit of measurement the others insisting that the two sounds have passed into the same either parties setting their ears before their understanding you mean i said those gentlemen who tease and torture the strings and wreck them on the pegs of the instrument i might carry on the metaphor and speak after their manner of the blows which the plectrum gives and make accusations against the strings both of backwardness and forwardness to sound but this would be tedious and therefore i will only say that these are not the man and that i am referring to the Pythagoreans of whom i was just now proposing to inquire about harmony for they too are in error like the astronomers they investigate the numbers of the harmonies which are heard but they never attain to problems that is to say they never reach the natural harmonies of number or reflect why some numbers are harmonious and others not that he said is a thing of more than mortal knowledge a thing i replied which i would rather call useful that is if sought after with a view to the beautiful and good but if pursued in any other spirit useless very true he said now when all these studies reach the point of intercommunion in connection with one another and come to be considered in their mutual affinities then i think but not till then will the pursuit of them have a value for our objects otherwise there is no profit in them i suspect so but you are speaking socrates of a vast work what do you mean i said the prelude or what do you not know that all this is but the prelude to the actual strain which we have to learn for you surely would not regard the skilled mathematician as a dialectician surely not he said i have hardly ever known a mathematician who was capable of reasoning but do you imagine that men who are unable to give and take a reason will have the knowledge which we require of them neither can this be supposed and so glaucon i said we have at last arrived at the hymn of dialectic this is that strain which is of the intellect only with which the faculty of site will nevertheless be found to imitate for sight as you may remember was imagined by us after a while to behold the real animals and stars and last of all the sun himself and so with dialectic when a person starts on the discovery of the absolute by the light of reason only and without any assistance of sense and perseveres until by pure intelligence he arrives at the perception of the absolute good he at last finds himself at the end of the intellectual world as in the case of sight at the end of the visible exactly he said then this is the progress which are called dialectic true but the release of the prisoners from chains and their translation from the shadows to the images and to the light and the ascent from the underground den to the sun while in his presence they are vainly trying to look on animals and plants and the light of the sun but are able to perceive even with their weak eyes the images in the water and are the shadows of true existence this power of elevating the highest principle in the soul to the contemplation of that which is best in existence with which we may compare the raising of that faculty which is the very light of the body to the sight of that which is brightest in the material invisible world this power is given as i was saying by all that study and pursuit of the arts which has been described i agree in what you are saying he replied which may be hard to believe yet from another point of view is harder still to deny this however is not a theme to be treated of in passing only but will have to be discussed again and again and so whether our conclusion be true or false let us assume all this and proceed at once from the prelude or preamble to the chief strain and describe that in like manner say then what is the nature and what are the divisions of dialectic and what are the paths which lead bitter for these paths will also lead to our final rest dear glochan i said you will not be able to follow me here though i would do my best and you should behold not an image only but the absolute truth according to my notion whether what i told you would or would not have been a reality i cannot venture to say but you would have seen something like reality of that i am confident doubtless he replied but i must also remind you that the power of dialectic alone can reveal this and only to one who is a disciple of the previous sciences of that assertion you may be as confident as of the last and assuredly no one will argue that there is any other method of comprehending by any regular process all true existence or ascertaining what each thing is in its own nature for the arts in general are concerned with the desires or opinions of men or are cultivated with a view to production and construction or for the preservation of such productions and constructions and as to the mathematical sciences which as we were saying have some apprehension of true being geometry and the like they only dream about being but never can they behold the waking reality so long as they leave the hypotheses which they use unexamined and are unable to give an account of them for when a man knows not his own first principle and when the conclusion and intermediate steps are also constructed out of he knows not what how can he imagine that such a fabric of convention can ever become science impossible he said then dialectic and dialectic alone goes directly to the first principle and is the only science which does away with hypotheses in order to make her ground secure the eye of the soul which is literally buried in an outlandish slew is by her gentle aid lifted upwards and she uses as handmade and helpers in the work of conversion the sciences which we have been discussing custom terms them sciences but they ought to have some other name implying greater clearness than opinion and less clearness than science and this in our previous sketch was called understanding but why should we dispute about names when we have realities of such importance to consider why indeed he said when any name will do which expresses the thought of the mind with clearness at any rate we are satisfied as before to have four divisions two for intellect and two for opinion and to call the first division science the second understanding the third belief and the fourth perception of shadows opinion being concerned with becoming and intellect with being and so to make a proportion as being is to becoming so is pure intellect to opinion and as intellect is to opinion so is science to believe and understanding to the perception of shadows and of book seven part three book seven part four of Plato's Republic this is a LibriVox recording all LibriVox recordings are in the public domain for more information or to volunteer please visit LibriVox.org recording by Leni the Republic by Plato translated by Benjamin Joed book seven part four but let us defer the further correlation and subdivision of the subjects of opinion and of intellect for it will be a long inquiry many times longer than this has been as far as I understand he said I agree and do you also agree I said in describing the dialectician as one who attains a conception of the essence of each thing and he who does not possess and is therefore unable to impart this conception in whatever degree he fails may in that degree also be said to fail in intelligence will you admit so much yes he said how can I deny it and you would say the same of the conception of the good until the person is able to abstract and define rationally the idea of good and unless he can run the gauntlet of all objections and is ready to disprove them not by appeals to opinion but to absolute truth never faltering at any step of the argument unless he can do all this he would say that he knows neither the idea of good nor any other good he apprehends only a shadow if anything at all which is given by opinion and not by science dreaming and slumbering in this life before he's well awake here he arrives at the world below and has his final quietess and all that I should most certainly agree with you and surely you would not have the children of your ideal state whom you are nurturing and educating if the ideal ever becomes a reality you would not allow the future rulers to be like posts having no reasoning them and yet to be set in authority over the highest matters certainly not then you will make a law that they shall have such an education as will enable them to attain the greatest skill in asking and answering questions yes he said you and I together will make it dialectic then as you will agree is the coping stone of the sciences and is set over them no other science can be placed higher the nature of knowledge can no further go I agree he said but to whom we are to assign these studies and in what way they are to be assigned our questions which remain to be considered yes clearly you remember I said how the rulers were chosen before certainly he said the same natures must still be chosen and the preference again given to the surest and the bravest and if possible to the fairest and having noble and generous tempers they should also have the natural gifts which will facilitate their education and what are these such gifts as keenness and ready powers of acquisition for the mind more often faints from the severity of study than from the severity of gymnastics the toil is more entirely the mind's own and is not shared with the body very true he replied further he of whom we are in search should have a good memory and be an unwearied solid man who is a lover of labor in any line or he will never be able to endure the great amount of bodily exercise and to go through all the intellectual discipline and study which will require of him certainly he said he must have natural gifts the mistake at present is that those who study philosophy have no vocation and this as I was before saying is the reason why she has fallen into disrepute her true sons should take her by the hand and not bastards what do you mean in the first place her votary should not have a lame or halting industry I mean that he should not be half industrious and half idle as for example when a man is a lover of gymnastic and hunting and all other bodily exercises but a hater rather than a lover of the labor of learning or listening or inquiring or the occupation to which he devotes himself maybe of an opposite kind and he may have the other sort of lameness certainly he said and that's the truth I said it's not a soul equally to be deemed halt and lame which hates voluntary falsehood and is extremely indignant at herself and others when they tell lies but is patient of involuntary falsehood and does not mind wallowing like a swinnish beast in the mire of ignorance and has no shame at being detected to be sure and again in respect of temperance courage magnificence and every other virtue should be not carefully distinguished between the true son and the bastard for where there's no discernment of such qualities states and individuals unconsciously err and the state makes a ruler and the individual a friend of one who being defective in some part of virtue is in a figure lame or a bastard that is very true he said all these things then will have to be carefully considered by us and if only those whom we introduce to this vast system of education and training our sound and body and mind just as herself will have nothing to say against us and we shall be the saviors of the constitution and of the state but if our pupils are men of another stamp the reverse will happen and we shall pour a still greater flood of ridicule on philosophy that she has to endure at present that would not be creditable certainly not I said and yet perhaps in this turning just into earnest I am equally ridiculous in what respect I had forgotten I said that we were not serious and spoke with too much excitement for when I saw philosophy so undeservedly trampled under foot of men I could not help feeling a sort of indignation at the authors of her disgrace and my anger made me to vehement indeed I was listening and did not think so but I who am the speaker felt that I was and now let me remind you that although in our former selection we chose old men we must not do so in this solan was under a delusion when he said that a man when he grows old may learn many things for he can no more learn much than he can run much youth is the time for any extraordinary toil of course and therefore calculation and geometry and all the other elements of instruction which are a preparation for dialectic should be presented to the mind in childhood not however under any notion of forcing our system of education why not because a free man ought not to be a slave in the acquisition of knowledge of any kind bodily exercise when compulsory there's no harm to the body but knowledge which is acquired under compulsion obtains no hold on the mind very true then my good friend I said do not use compulsion but let early education be a sort of amusement you will then be better able to find out the natural bend that is a very rational notion he said do you remember that the children too were to be taken to see the battle on horseback and that if there were no danger they were to be brought close up and like young have a taste of blood given them yes I remember the same practice may be followed I said in all these things labors lessons dangers and he who is most at home in all of them ought to be enrolled in a select number at what age at the age when the necessary gymnastics are over the period whether of two or three years which passes in this sort of training is useless for any other purpose for sleep and exercise are unprofitious to learning and the trial of who is first in gymnastic exercises is one of the most important tests to which our youth are subjected certainly he replied after that time those who are selected from the class of 20 years old will be promoted to higher honor and the sciences which they learned without any order in their early education will now be brought together and they will be able to see the natural relationship of them to one another and to true being yes he said that is the only kind of knowledge which takes lasting root yes I said and the capacity for such knowledge is the great criterion of dialectical talent the comprehensive mind is always the dialectical I agree with you he said these I said are the points which you must consider and those who have most of this comprehension and who are most steadfast in their learning and in their military and other appointed duties when they have arrived at the age of 30 have to be chosen by you out of the select class and elevated to higher honor and you will have to prove them by the help of dialectic in order to learn which of them is able to give up the use of sight and the other senses and in company with truth to attain absolute being and here my friend great caution is required why great caution do you not remark I said how great is the evil which dialectic has introduced what evil he said the students of the art are filled with lawlessness quite true he said do you think that there is anything so very unnatural or inexcusable in their case or will you make allowance for them in what way make allowance I want you I said by way of parallel to imagine a supposititious son who is brought up in great wealth he's one of a great and numerous family and has many flairers when he grows up to manhood he learns that his alleged are not his real parents but who the real are he's unable to discover can you guess how he will be likely to behave towards his flairers and his supposed parents first of all during the period when he's ignorant of the false relation and then again when he knows or shall I guess for you if you please then I should say that while he's ignorant of the truth he will be likely to honor his father and his mother and his supposed relations more than the flairers he will be less inclined to neglect them when in need or to do or say anything against them and he will be less willing to disobey them in any important matter he will but when he has made the discovery I should imagine that he would diminish his honor and regard for them and would become more devoted to the flairers their influence over him would greatly increase he would now live after their ways and openly associate with them and unless he were of an unusually good disposition he would trouble himself no more about his supposed parents or other relations well all that is very probable but how is the image applicable to the disciples of philosophy in this way you know that there are certain principles about justice and honor which were taught us in childhood and under their parental authority we have been brought up obeying and honoring them that is true there are also opposite maxims and habits of pleasure which flatter and attract the soul but do not influence those of us who have any sense of right and they continue to obey and honor the maxims of their fathers true now when a man is in this state and the question in spirit asks what is fair or honorable and he answers as the legislator has taught him and then arguments many and the verse refute his words until he is driven into believing that nothing is honorable any more than dishonorable or just and good any more than the reverse and so of all the notions which he most valued do you think that he will still honor and obey them as before impossible and when he ceases to think them honorable and natural as here before and he fails to discover the true can he be expected to pursue any life other than that which flatters his desires he cannot and from being a keeper of the law he's converted into a breaker of it unquestionably now all this is very natural in students of philosophy such as I have described and also as I was just now saying most excusable yes he said and I may add pitable therefore that your feelings may not be moved to pity about our citizens who are now 30 years of age every care must be taken in introducing them to dialectic certainly there is a danger last they should taste the dear delight too early for youngsters as you may have observed when they first get the taste in their mouths argue for amusement and are always contradicting and refuting others in imitation of those who refute them like puppy dogs they rejoice in pooling and tearing at all who come near them yes he said there's nothing which they like better and when they have made many conquests and receive defeats at the hands of many they violently and speedily get into a way of not believing anything which they believe before and hence not only they but philosophy and all that relates to it is apt to have a bad name with the rest of the world too true he said but when a man begins to get older he will no longer be guilty of such insanity he will imitate the dialectician who is seeking for truth and not the heuristic who is contradicting for the sake of amusement and the greater moderation of his character will increase instead of diminishing the honor of the pursuit very true he said and did we not make special provision for this when we said that the disciples of philosophy were to be orderly and steadfast not as now any chance aspirant or intruder very true suppose i said the study of philosophy to take the place of gymnastics and to be continued diligently and earnestly and exclusively for twice the number of years which were passed in bodily exercise will that be enough would you say six or four years he asked say five years i replied at the end of the time they must be sent down again into the den and compelled to hold any military or other office which young men are qualified to hold in this way they will get their experience of life and there will be an opportunity of trying whether when they are drawn all manner of ways by temptation they will stand firm or flinch and how long is the stage of their lives to last 15 years i answered and when they have reached 50 years of age then let those who still survive and have distinguished themselves in every action of their lives and in every branch of knowledge come at last to their consummation the time has now arrived at which they must raise the eye of the soul to the universal light which lightens all things and behold the absolute good for that is the pattern according to which they are to order the state and the lives of individuals and the remainder of their own lives also making philosophy their chief pursuit but when their turn comes toiling also at politics and ruling for the public good not as though they were performing some heroic action but simply as a matter of duty and when they have brought up in each generation others like themselves and let them in their place to be governors of the state then they will depart to the islands of the blessed and dwell there and the city will give them public memorials and sacrifices and honor them if the pithy and oracle consent as demigods but if not as in any case blessed and divine you are a sculptor socrates and have made statues of our governors faultless in beauty yes i said glockon and of our governesses too for you must not suppose that what i have been saying applies to men only and not to women as far as their natures can go there you are right he said since we have made them to share in all things like the man well i said and you would agree would you not that what has been said about the state and the government is not a mere dream and although difficult not impossible but only possible in the way which has been supposed that is to say when the true philosopher kings are born in a state one or more of them despising the honors of this present world which they deem mean and worthless esteeming above all things right and the honor that springs from right and regarding justice as the greatest and most necessary of all things whose ministers they are and whose principles will be exalted by them when they set in order their own city how will they proceed they will begin by sending out into the country all the inhabitants of the city who are more than 10 years old it will take possession of their children who will be unaffected by the habits of their parents these they will train in their own habits and laws i mean in the laws which we have given them and in this way the state and constitution of which we were speaking will soonest and most easily attain happiness and the nation which has such a constitution will gain most yes that will be the best way and i think socrates that you have very well described how if ever such a constitution might come into being enough then of the perfect state and of the man who bears its image there's no difficulty in seeing how we shall describe him there is no difficulty he replied and i agree with you in thinking that nothing more need be said end of book seven book eight part one of playtoe's republic this is a lipovox recording all lipovox recordings are in the public domain for more information or to volunteer please visit lipovox.org recording by anostimon the republic by playtoe translated by benjamin joett book eight part one and so glocon we have arrived at the conclusion that in the perfect state wives and children are to be in common and that all education and the pursuits of war and peace are also to be common and the best philosophers and the bravest warriors are to be their kings that replied glocon has been acknowledged yes i said and we have further acknowledged that the governors when appointed themselves will take their soldiers and place them in houses such as we were describing which are common to all and contain nothing private or individual and about their property you remember what we agreed yes i remember that no one was to have any of the ordinary possessions of mankind they were to be warrior athletes and guardians receiving from the other citizens in the view of annual payment only their maintenance and they were to take care of themselves and the whole state true i said and now that this division of our task is concluded let us find the point at which we digress that we may return into the old path there is no difficulty in returning you implied then as now that you had finished the description of the state you said that such a state was good and that the man was good who answered to it although as now appears you had more excellent things to relate both of state and man and you said further that if this was the true form then the others were false and of the false forms you said as i remember that there were four principal ones and that their defects and the defects of the individuals corresponding to them were worth examining when we'd seen all the individuals and finally agreed as to who was the best and who was the worst of them we were to consider whether the best was not also the happiest and the worst the most miserable i asked you what were the full forms of government of which he spoke and then polo marcus and adamantas put in their word and you began again and i found your way to the point at which we've now arrived your recollection i said is most exact then like a wrestler he replied you must put yourself again in the same position and let me ask the same question and do you give me the same answer which you were about to give me then yes if i can i will i said i shall particularly wish to hear what were the four constitutions of which you were speaking that question i said is easily answered the four governments of which i spoke so far as they have distinct names are first those of creed and spotter which are generally applauded what is termed oligarchy comes next this is not equally approved and is a form of government which teams with evils thirdly democracy which naturally follows oligarchy although very different and lastly comes tyranny great and famous which differs from them all and is the fourth and worst disorder of a state i do not know do you of any other constitution which can be said to have a distinct character there are lordships and principalities which are bought and sold and some other intermediate forms of government but these are nondescripts and may be found equally among hellings and among barbarians yes he replied we certainly hear of many curious forms of government which exist among them do you know i said that governments vary as the dispositions of men vary and that there must be as many of the one as there are of the other for we cannot suppose that states are made of oak and rock and not out of the human natures which are in them and which in a figure turn the scale and draw other things after them yes he said the states are as the men are they grow out of human characters then if the constitutions of states are five the dispositions of individual minds will also be five suddenly him who answers to aristocracy and whom we rightly call just and good we have already described we have then let us now proceed to describe the inferior sort of natures being the contentious and ambitious who answer to the spartan polity also the oligarchical democratical and tyrannical let us place the most just by the side of the most unjust and when we see them we shall be able to compare the relative happiness or unhappiness of him who leads a life of pure justice or pure injustice the inquiry will then be completed and we shall know whether we ought to pursue injustice as thrasamachus advises or in accordance with the conclusions of the argument to prefer justice certainly he replied we must do as you say shall we follow our old plan which we adopted with a view to clearness of taking the state first and then proceeding to the individual and begin with the government of honor i know of no name for such a government other than timeocracy or perhaps time or key we will compare with this the like character in the individual and after that consider oligarchy and the oligarchical man and then again we will turn our attention to democracy and the democratical man and lastly we will go and view the city of tyranny and once more take a look into the tyrant's soul and try to arrive at a satisfactory decision that way of viewing and judging of the matter will be very suitable first then i said let us inquire how timeocracy the government of honor arises out of aristocracy the government of the best clearly all political changes originate in divisions of the actual governing power a government which is united however small cannot be moved very true he said in what way then will our city be moved and in what manner will the two classes of auxiliaries and rulers disagree among themselves or with one another shall we after the manner of homer pray the muses to tell us how discord first arose shall we imagine them in solemn mockery to play and jest with us as if we were children and to address us in a lofty tragic vein making belief to be in earnest how would they address us after this manner a city which is thus constituted can hardly be shaken but seeing that everything which has a beginning has also an end even a constitution such as yours will not last forever but will in time be dissolved and this is a disillusion in plants that grow in the earth as well as in animals that move on the earth's surface fertility and sterility of soul and body occur when the circumferences of the circles of each are completed which in short-lived existences pass over short space and in long-lived ones over a long space but to the knowledge of human fecundity and sterility all the wisdom and education of your rulers will not attain the laws which regulate them will not be discovered by an intelligence which is alloyed with sense but will escape them and they will bring children into the world when they are not now that which is of divine birth as a period which is contained in a perfect number but the period of human birth is comprehended in a number in which first increments by involution and evolution obtaining three intervals and four terms of like and unlike waxing and waning numbers make all the terms commensurable and agreeable to one another the base of these with a third edit when combined with five and raised to the third power furnishes two harmonies the first a square which is a hundred times as great and the other a figure having one side equal to the former but up long consisting of a hundred numbers squared upon rational diameters of a square the side of which is five each of them being less by one or less by two perfect squares of a rational diameters and a hundred cubes of three now this number represents a geometrical figure which has control over the good and evil of birth for when your guardians are ignorant of the law of births and unite bride and bridegroom out of season the children will not be goodly or fortunate and though only the best of them will be appointed by their predecessors still they will be unworthy to hold their father's places and when they come into power as guardians they will soon be found to fail in taking care of us the muses first by undervaluing music which neglect will soon extend to gymnastic and hence the young man of your state will be less cultivated in the succeeding generation rulers will be appointed who have lost the guardian power of testing the metal of your different races which like asiats are of gold and silver and bras and iron and so iron will be mingled with silver and bras with gold and hence the will arise dissimilarity and inequality and irregularity which always and in all places are causes of hatred and war this the muses affirm to be the stock from which this court has sprung wherever arising and this is their answer to us yes and we may assume that they answer truly why yes i said of course they answer truly how can the muses speak falsely and what do the muses say next when this court arose then the two races were drawn different ways the iron and bras felt acquiring money and land and houses and gold and silver but the gold and silver races not wanting money but having the true riches in their own nature inclined towards virtue and the ancient order of things there was a battle between them and at last they agreed to distribute their lands and houses among individual owners and they enslaved their friends and maintainers whom they had formally protected in the condition of freemen and made of them subjects and servants and they themselves are engaged in war and in keeping a watch against them i believe that you have rightly conceived the origin of the change and the new government which does arises will be of a form intermediate between oligarchy and aristocracy very true such will be the change and after the change has been made how will they proceed clearly the new state being in a meme between oligarchy and the perfect state will partly follow one and partly the other and will also have some peculiarities true he said in the honor given to rulers in the abstinence of the warrior class from agriculture handicrafts and trade in general in the institution of common meals and in the attention paid to gymnastics and military training in all these respects this state will resemble the former true but in the fear of admitting philosophers to power because they are no longer to be had simple and earnest but are made up of mixed elements and in turning from them to passionate and less complex characters who are by nature fitted for war rather than peace and in the value set by them upon military stratagems and contrivances and in the waging of everlasting wars this state will be for the most part peculiar yes yes i said and men at this temp will be covetous of money like those who live in oligarchies they will have a fierce secret longing after gold and silver which they will hoard in dark places having magazines and treasuries of their own for the deposit and concealment of them also castles which are just nests for their eggs and in which they will spend large sums on their wives or on any others whom they please that is most true he said and they are miserly because they have no means of openly acquiring the money which they prize they will spend that which is another man's on the gratification of their desires stealing their pleasures and running away like children from the law their father they have been schooled not by gentle influences but by force for they have neglected her who is the true muse the companion of reason and philosophy and have honored gymnastic more than music undoubtedly he said the form of government which you describe is a mixture of good and evil why there is a mixture i said but one thing and one thing only is predominantly seen the spirit of contention and ambition and these are due to the prevalence of the passionate or spirited element shortly he said such is the origin and such the character of this state which has been described in outline only no more perfect execution was not required for a sketch is enough to show the type of the most perfectly just and most perfectly unjust and to go through all the states and all the characters of men omitting none of them would be an interminable labor very true he replied now what man answers to this form of government how did he come into being and what is he like i think said adamantas that in the spirit of contention which characterizes him he is not unlike our friend glaucon perhaps i said he may be like him in that one point but there are other respects in which he is very different in what respects he should have more of self assertion and be less cultivated and yet a friend of culture and he should be a good listener but no speaker such a person is apt to be rough with slaves unlike the educated man who is too proud for that and he will also be courteous to free men and remarkably obedient to authority he is a lover of power and a lover of honor claiming to be a ruler not because he is eloquent or on any ground of that sort but because he is a soldier and has performed feats of arms he is also a lover of gymnastic exercises and of the chase yes that is the type of character which answers to democracy such a one will despise riches only when he is young but as he gets older he will be more and more attracted to them because he has a piece of the avaricious nature in him and is not single-minded towards virtue having lost his best guardian who was that said adamantas philosophy i said tempered with music who comes and takes up her abode in a man and is the only savior of his virtue throughout life good he said such i said is a time of critical youth and he is like the time of critical state exactly his origin is as follows he is often the young son of a brave father who dwells in an ill-governed city of which he declines the honors and officers and will not go to law or exert himself in any way but is ready to wave his rights in order that he may escape trouble and how does the son come into being the character of the son begins to develop when he hears his mother complaining that their husband has no place in the government of which the consequences that she has no precedence among other women further when she sees her husband not very eager about money and instead of battling and railing in the law courts or assembly taking whatever happens to him quietly and when she observes that his thoughts always center in himself while he treats her with very considerable indifference she is annoyed and says to her son that his father is only half a man and far too easygoing adding all the other complaints about her own ill-treatment which women are so fond of rehearsing yes said adamantas they gave us plenty of them and their complaints are so like themselves and you know i said that the old servants also who are supposed to be attached to the family from time to time talk privately in the same strain to the son and if they see anyone who owes money to his father or is wronging him in any way and he fails to prosecute them they tell the youth that when he grows up he must retaliate upon people of this sort and be more of a man than his father he is only to walk abroad and he hears and sees the same sort of thing those who do their own business in the city are called simpletons and held in no esteem while the busy bodies are honored and applauded the result is that the young man hearing and seeing all these things hearing to the words of his father and having a nearer view of his way of life and making comparisons of him and others is drawn opposite ways while his father is watering and nourishing the rational principle in his soul the others are encouraging the passionate and appetitive and he being not originally of a bad nature but having kept bad company is at last brought by their joint influence to a middle point and gives up the kingdom which is within him to the middle principle of contentiousness and passion and becomes arrogant and ambitious you seem to me to have described his origin perfectly then we have now i said the second form of government and the second type of character we have end of book eight part one book eight part two of playtoe's republic this is a libra fox recording all libra fox recordings are in the public domain for more information or to volunteer please visit librafox.org recording by anasimum the republic by playto translated by benjamin joet book eight part two next let us look at another man who as as carlis says is set over against another state or rather as our plan requires begin with the state by all means i believe that oligarchy follows next in order and what manner of government do you term oligarchy a government resting on a valuation of property in which the rich have power and the poor man is deprived of it i understand he replied all time not to begin by describing how the change from democracy to oligarchy arises yes well i said no eyes are required in order to see how the one passes into the other how the accumulation of gold and the treasury of private individuals is the ruin of democracy they invent illegal modes of expenditure for what do they or their wives care about the law yes indeed and then one seeing another grow rich seeks to rival him and thus the great miles of the citizens become lovers of money likely enough and so they grow richer and richer and the more they think of making a fortune the less they think of virtue for when riches and virtue are placed together in the scales of the balance the one always rises as the other falls true and in proportion as riches and rich man are honored in the state virtue and the virtues are dishonored clearly and what is honored is cultivated and that which has no honor is neglected that is obvious and so at last instead of loving contention and glory men become lovers of trade and money they honor and look up to the rich man and make a ruler of him and dishonor the poor man they do so they next proceed to make a law which fixes a sum of money as the qualification of citizenship the sum is higher in one place and lower in another as the oligarchy is more or less exclusive and they allow no one whose property falls below the amount fixed to have any share in the government these changes in the constitution they affect by falls of arms if intimidation has not already done their work very true and this speaking generally is the way in which oligarchy is established yes he said but what are the characteristics of this form of government and what are the defects of which we are speaking first of all i said consider the nature of the qualification just think what would happen if pilots would be chosen according to their property and a poor man were refused permission to steer even though he were a better pilot you mean that they would shipwreck yes and is not this true of the government of anything i should imagine so except a city or would you include a city nay he said the case of a city is the strongest of all inasmuch as the rule of a city is the greatest and most difficult of all this then will be the first gre