Okay, I'm going to start so hello. Hello everybody and welcome to our show. Oh, sorry to talk My name is Roman and I'm a technical solutions engineer at Google today I'm gonna be talking about Kubernetes support at Google Cloud I just said that I'm technical solutions engineer, but that's just a fancy name for a support engineer So why we are all here? We all know that Kubernetes is a powerful container orchestrator We are all here. That's why we are here and Kubernetes is turning ten years this year We all know that the first coupon was almost nine years ago after all this time We are all long past the demos or long past the POC's many of you already adopted Kubernetes and using it in production and But with all the all of the ben that's all in due to benefits Kubernetes brings But with all of the benefits there are also come the challenges Let's face it. Kubernetes is not a magic wand. It also needs some love and attention But fear not that's where people like me and my colleagues come in to save the day Let's take a look at some trends Out of all the cases Kubernetes related cases received in 2023 Here is a list of future cases by future in descending on order This is not an exhaustive list, but these are just the top seven futures If we take a look at this list at the first place is networking and it makes sense One of the main use cases of Kubernetes are microservices and all those microservices need to chat as a result First place is networking Node related issues are usually related to node stability resource allocation or node failures Even if Kubernetes has like auto healing mechanisms and in the schedules the workload it replaces the failed node What I noticed is that people really care about what happens to that node and they really want to know why they failed For control plane issues. We are dealing with QB API server controller manager at CD These issues usually do not affect the workload directly, but they do affect the scheduling part the orchestration part So they do get your attention really quickly Even if your control plane is managed by a service provider You can still break it depending on what you're running in your cluster All those control plane components, they don't have Infinite resources. So for example, if you have a controller that runs and creates only resources and doesn't delete them You can easily fill out the it CD database causing issues Another way to look at this list is which feature is the most popular and the most complicated at the same time Like if as the feature set grows so does the complexity and where complexity comes in this is where support comes in So let me share with you a real-life case that had me scratching my head so when Customers create cases. There are multiple automated jobs that are running analyzing the configuration the logs and try to help Customers even before they are opening a case But still if they are open a key opening a case all the output from all those jobs come to assess support engineers and help us troubleshoot the issue further Even with all those automated jobs, they just can't catch them all So let's just take a look at the case. So this is a Real-life case all the names were changed, but the issue is still the same So this is how customers create cases. This is the case number This is who created the case John Doe. What a popular name So John created the case and he says not able to create G key clusters It is failing with the below error and the error is like a CVS receipt Apparently he wanted to put the whole line in the subject and it didn't feel fit in So John can also set the priority P1 is the highest priority, which means we need to move fast to help John Category so here he can select technical Kubernetes engine and then after Kubernetes engine He can also select the future one of the features that We've seen in the previous slide, but he didn't do that. So we'll have to figure that out project ID Then cluster name namespace node name workload name. The thing is like all of these details They do help us but customers when they are in a hurry They really don't feel don't put either they don't put the details or they put they them incorrectly So we just need to read the case description to actually understand what's happening So this is what we're doing here. We create G key clusters for our application and we do cube CTL patching It was working fine two days ago Suddenly we see this error for Qt CTL patch Blah blah blah, and we have this certificate signed by unknown authority. Okay So I have an error. I have where it's coming from, but I don't know where the Qt CTL is running I don't know on which cluster does this apply. So I need to ask these details to try to help John So this is what I'm doing here Can you please tell me does it occur on all of the cluster? Is it happening on newly created clusters or existence clusters as well? And John is apparently in a hurry and he just says any update on this Okay, but oh now just a little while later He apparently seen my question and says this is occurring on new G key clusters The patching command is working fine from my Mac book But when it's running from a Google VM the command is not working So this is a very important piece of information Because Qt CTL is working fine on his Mac book, but it's failing on the Google VM So we kind of can limit this to a Google VM And next this is a blocker for our production rollout. Please update on this. Okay. We need to really hurry this here So I have a little bit of more information but he has that error and That error can come from so he's running Qt CTL All the information Qt CTL has is from Qt config So any manual tampering of that Qt config can generate this error. So what I'm trying to Say here is like to Tell John to regenerate Qt config Hopefully he will get a fresh new Qt config everything will be fine problem will be solved This is what I'm asking John to do. Please regenerate Qt config John comes back. We're still facing the same issue and an AP address like I Have this AP address. I can't find the VM by the IP address because we are support engineers We have read only access. We can see the configuration. We can see the VMs We can see the logs, but I cannot log in into VM because there could be private information for the customer So this doesn't really help me Then I'm asking John Did you try to recreate Qt config because I didn't really understand from the previous reply and I'm also asking him Can you please run this command Qt CTL with insecure skew TLS verify just to make sure? Qube API server is reachable from that VM So we can kind of limit further down the problem And John comes back with We just have the same error and again an AP address At this point in time. I'm just let's just jump on a call and troubleshoot this issue live as real engineers do So when we jump on the call, I can actually ask John to run some commands see the output and try to figure this out Okay, so this is what we're doing here John is connected to this question host Just to see the issue. Let's just try Qt CTL. Sorry Qt CTL get pot Qt CTL Qt CTL get pot Okay, and sure enough, we see the same error certificate signed by a non-authority Okay, just to make sure that John did what I Ask him to do to regenerate Qt config. Let's just do that once again, but first we need to back it up So in case John needs it later remove the one that is there Generate a new one. Okay. We're generating for cluster 35. That's the problem where Actually, it's for class 60 that's where they He reported the problem and let's just we have a shining you come Qt config Hopefully it should work, but no We still have the same issue Now at this point, I Don't understand what's happening like we have just generated the new Qt config everything should be working I have the proper certificate. I had like it should be fine. What's happening? At this point, I need to read some documentation Like I know I told you we are experts, but we're just basically on a never-ending date with documentation So reading here, I can see client certificate Authentification is enabled by bypassing this flag to the API server So what this means is that we have a Certificate authority that is used by QB API server and all the client Certificates and this certificate used by the API server should be signed by the same certificate authority If this is true, everything should be working fine. We can actually check that so let's do that The certificate used by Cube CTL can be found in cube config. So let's just Take that config view With the raw output so it contains also the certificate we provide the path to the certificate authority data We decode it we put it into a file Good We have the Cube CTL certificate now. We can also get the certificate from the QB API server Let's just find the cluster API address first We also can get that from Qube config we get the cluster AP and With the mighty open SSL command we can actually get the certificate again get the certificate put it into a file Again with open SSL we can actually check the issuers of both of the certificate The one used by Qube config and the one used by QB API server Let's do that This is for Qube API server the issuer and for Cube config for Cube CTL and we can see the issuers are different So this is the problem. I Still don't understand how this can happen because we have just generated the Qube config But I'm focused on solving the problem. So John can use this bastion host to make visit him his deployments We can actually do that. So the problem here is that issuers are different and that's why he gets this error So if we use the certificate from Qube API server and we put it in Qube config Everything should be working fine. Let's do that We're setting the context For the current context with the certificate the certificate authority for the current context And we are taking the certificate from Qube API, which we just got Encoded in base 64 And let's do that. Let's do Qube CTL get pod It's working. The error is gone This is kind of good because we mitigated the issue But they still don't know what happened like why this issue was very in the first place Because like as I told you multiple times already, we have just generated Qube config like why is this is happening? Just to make sure everything is fine. I'm asking John to run some run some more commands like Qube CTL get node And he says like oh look at this. This is from cluster 35 This is a different cluster Here I'm cool. I'm like, I know what's happening. I know was the problem John thinks he's connecting to cluster 60, but he's actually connecting to cluster 45 Maybe the IP address of the Qube API server is the same. We can also check that Let's check in Qube config The server IP address and see here we have two IP addresses of the Qube API server to same IP addresses So just to reiterate John has this bastion host that he uses to connect to different clusters There is some kind of routing here that should route requests to a correct subnet Where the correct Qube API server is in this case John generated the Qube config for cluster 60 But he's actually connecting to cluster 35 Getting this whole error when Qube config is generated. It has the certificate for cluster 60 So if we generate Qube config now for cluster 60 Qube CTL get pod Everything is working fine. Oh, sorry. Yeah No, so cluster 60 is the problem if we generate for cluster 35 Everything should be working fine again See no error Problem solved now I can go and get a cup of coffee or something But there is another case coming in Support is a 24-7 Operation so I can just hand this case with this next case off to my colleague Sian All set up Okay, I'm sorry for that. Yeah, I guess talks can go however they go Okay, so I'm taking over from Roman. I am another JK firefighter and my name is Sian And we're going to be looking through another case and this one started off as a P2 case Okay, so let's take a look at the case So the final priority was P1, but started off as a P2 We have priorities all the way between P1 to P4 and P2 is just and P1 and basically it's that something is broken But the customer is not down in production and let's go through just what has been reported to us So we have the title we have a message here saying that auto scaling is not working We have project ID We have a cluster name. That's good. We have the namespace name We have the workload name and then we have a brief description here Which says that they have scaled up their workload But most of the pods are in the pending state again not much information for me to go on they haven't for example told me When they first noticed the issue when they attempted scale up What's the business impact for them if there any errors or relevant log messages? So from there, I just request for the information because as I say many times We're not really magicians We don't know everything and we have to ask many times because it's P2 I decide to wait for the customer to come back to me and Provide the details before I do any more Okay, after a while they come back and They say we're seeing messages like this. So zero of three nodes are available Which is basically telling me that the pod the pods couldn't be scheduled on a node They couldn't find a suitable node and then they also share some messages here about Cube cattle Not returning couldn't get resource list for metrics and it's not really clear to me how the two are related Again, they haven't told me anything about the business impact They haven't told me what time the issue started but at this point I'm like it looks like it's still ongoing So I might as well check as Roman mentioned we have read-only access to Customer clusters so we can run Cube cattle commands. We can view their logs and we can also check just their configurations in the UI. So That's what we're going to do now Okay, sorry, I need to log in again So we're just going to check and see how many pods are still in the pending state Okay So they have a number of pods that are in the pending state Which means the issue is still ongoing and I'm just going to pick one of the pods at this point and describe it and see if there's anything Interesting at all in the events Okay, so if we look at the events here from the top we can see a failed scale up so we can see that there was an attempt to scale up looking at the trigger for scale up and At the bottom we can see failed scheduling messages just like the one that was shared on the case So part of the final support is when you get a case you really have no idea where it's going to go You have no idea What's relevant to look at what you need to ignore and you're just trying to follow and think what's logical What should I check next? So at this point I can see scale up is being triggered But I'm not I'm not really sure whether I really want to dig into auto scaling log So I think okay, let me check if there's even any attempts that are being made to create new nodes so All creation requests for objects they go to API server logs and on GPU you can enable Some control plane logging so you can view API server logs But as Roman said we don't know everything So I want to know what does a create request for a node look like so here I can see the verb and I can see it's Post and it's for a slash API slash V1 slash nodes. So I say, okay Let me create a query and look at just I can use these two strings to search the logs and see what I find there And I really don't know at this point what it is that I'm looking for I'm just trying to build a picture and see what happens next so Because the issue is still ongoing and the customer didn't provide me any idea of the time I'll just search over the first one hour if needed. I can always look back a little further So let's run the query Okay, so there's lots of logs I'll just expand one of them and have a look and I can see here already that there's a stack trace and Yeah, so I'll just go through the stack trace all the way to the end and see if there's anything useful Okay, so I can see it ends in an era and it says something about a failed calling a web book and The web book is check ignore label gatekeeper does this age. Okay. Now. Maybe I'm finding something So I'm sure a lot of you know about gatekeeper either you're using it or you've had about it before and then I read a bit more In the error message and I see it says it failed to call the webhook I see a post request to the webhook. I see a timeout of three seconds. Okay, that will be important later And then I see context deadline exceeded message So context deadline exceeded context console message. I'm sure you've seen the many times in Kubernetes They don't really tell you much so just from experience and some googling I figured out that the Era is just a generic error in go and basically what it means is that Request was made and it timed out. It didn't complete in the timeout that was set. Okay. Let's see what else we can find in the API server logs There's also this trace log Which I'm not so familiar with so As I said, we really don't know what we'll find so I'll just expand it and have a look Okay, so it seems to be sort of a breakdown for the latency of the request to create a node And over here, I can see all the requests some requests to Webhooks and again at the bottom I see the internal error and I see again the webhook message The webhook mentioned check ignore label get keeper does SH Okay, so it looks like the webhook could be involved somehow so It makes sense for me to check for just what's happening with the webhook in the API server logs And that's what I do as I said I'm just following the breadcrumbs that I'm finding and trying to find What makes the most sense to look at next? So again here we'll just search for the string webhook and then search for the past one are Okay, so we can see lots of yellow and red and yellow is basically a warning message and red is a is an error message, so We're looking for just to see if there's anything else we can see that's useful. We can see this still more trace Logs returned here And if we look at the check ignore label that get keep our sage specifically We see again the helpful context the line exceeded message. So nothing so exciting there Okay, so at this point back to the case at this point the customer Increases the priority of the case. They need this running in production right now So it's now a P1 for them and I just offer to hope on a call with them So on the call I explained what it is I found so far. So at this point, I don't have a complete picture of why it is that the Webhook is affecting the creation of the of the nodes, but I have a pretty good idea that that's where the problem is So in support we often are prioritizing Mitigation of understanding the root cause and I just advise the customer Why don't you back up this webhook you can always restore it from the backup and then Just go ahead and delete it for now. So let's pretend I'm the customer for now and We will delete the webhook and then we'll check to see If more pods will come into the running state Now that the webhook is deleted Okay, it's it was going to take a while, but yeah So webhooks are they they are classic example of that party tools that you can install in your Cluster that can have very many different Effects they can really affect the stability of your cluster and they can manifest in many different ways Okay, now we can see that once we deleted the webhook the pods are now running so with Webhooks the thing we really encourage is just to have a good idea of what the failure looks like what Name spaces you're covering what objects are affected by the webhook and in general for sad party tools There's very many operators that you can install nine Kubernetes very many demon sets that you can run like system security demon sets and we encourage you just to understand what is the demon set doing and What does it look like when it fails and will it have significant impact on my cloud on your cluster and on the stability So I still haven't found the root cause of the issue So we'll just look into that and we'll take a look at the webhook that I also made a backup off before the customer deleted it and There's two sections but we're interested in this section with the name check ignore label that get keeper dot s h and We can also confirm here it has a timeout of three seconds which we saw in the logs and we see here a failure policy of fail and Get back to documentation request to understand. What does a failure policy of fail mean? So looking up the documentation again a failure policy of fail means that there was an error calling the webhook and When this happens it causes the request to be rejected So if you have ignore the request is allowed to continue But if you have a failure policy set to rejected then the request will fail so in the case that you don't need to strictly enforce a Policy or use a webhook. It's better to set it to ignore and then together with this the customer also came back and they explained that the Backend pods for the gatekeeper webhook were overloaded at the time of the issue and That's why the requests were like the response was not being returned within the timeout So it's sort of an example of our collaboration between us and the customer So now we'll switch gears a bit and we'll go back to the presentation and we just have a few Just tips on troubleshooting that we've collected just working on many different kind of kinds of cases So although the cases we showed were not the best example of this We really encourage you to have a well-defined problem get all the details. This is the Whatever workload name is involved What time the issue started any relevant log messages if you have architecture diagrams that show different Pieces and how they are connected. That's even better get an idea of if anything has been changed Well, there any new deployments? When did they happen just have a record of this as it really helps and then the next thing is Using the whatever error messages or log messages you got or just the behavior You're seeing trying to understand. Is this a real problem or a misunderstood feature so for example with things like Cluster or to scale up we often see people Complaining or the cluster is not scaling down But if you actually read the documentation some more many times it is working as intended So just make the documentation your friend The next thing is to narrow down the scope of troubleshooting. You can't be looking at everything So you need to try and think especially in Kubernetes It helps either in terms of what my colleague mentioned Features or components so in this case I could either have looked at the scheduling or to scaling But you're basically trying to eliminate what it is that you're focusing on and then Once you have a list of components that you want to focus on create a list of hypotheses And you and you then you can test them and you're trying to go from the most simple Hypothesis to the more complex ones. You don't start with anything. That's too hard and then lastly if you are not able if you can see that there's some relationship between the issue that you're seeing and Just something that you've observed in for example the logs Try as much as possible to mitigate the problem and this goes back to the first step For example, if you knew this happened just after a new rollout Then you could try and roll back whatever change was made and then just collect all before you make the The rollback change for example, you can collect all the data you need so that later on you can perform your analysis and of course if all else fails and your SDK customer Please feel free to open a case and if you have all these details It's also really helpful to us and it takes us a lot of time because as I said, we're not magicians Okay Thank you everyone for your time Please scan the QR code to give feedback and if you have any questions, we'll be happy to take them. Thank you


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So Mexico, I think Mexico is important and it's interesting what's going on in Mexico and I think we don't really have a good sense of what's going on in Mexico partially because we're so engaged in our own domestic politics and I think Donald Trump has so skewed the discussion about Mexico and about immigration that we don't really have a chance to observe and to read about and to really think about what's actually going on in Mexico. What's going on in Mexico is super, super scary. Not because of Donald Trump, not because although Donald Trump I think had a big part in causing this scary scenario, but because of what the future might hold in terms of Mexico. As you'll see in a minute maybe we'll end up needing a wall after all. What's going on in Mexico is that they basically elected a Hugo Chavez type person to lead the country. So they've elected a radical leftist, a self-avowed socialist, but really in the model of a Chavez and the model of a real authoritarian and a real populist authoritarian. So not as much of a dogmatic socialist, a committed socialist or particular ideology, but much more of a populist kind of socialist who is going to really try to control that economy, to redistribute vast amounts of its wealth, to regulate it, to death and potentially to nationalize aspects of it. I mean the oil company in Mexico is already nationalized, but there was a movement towards privatization in Mexico and that movement is going to be reversed if anything there is a tendency now towards nationalization. He has a real demagogue. He has all those characteristics of a Chavez. He comes out with his monologues every morning to set the agenda for the media and for everybody else. Of course he has the intellectuals falling over themselves in worshiping him. So often the case all over the world, the intellectuals are very, very leftists and that is the case as well in Mexico. He is establishing his own, if you will, internal security forces that are loyal to him, like the National Guard, exactly like Chavez did, kind of almost a militia that is beyond the protection of, beyond the rule of law to some extent. He is also getting the generals, just like Chavez did, very much involved in the economy so that the military has strong economic incentives to sustain the regime. So anything that's nationalized, anything that is brought into the realm of government, a piece of it will be given to the generals and to military commanders to cement their loyalty. There is a real sense that he is going to try to move Mexico in the direction that Chavez moves Venezuela and now Maduro. And it's interesting how Maduro is still surviving and we will talk about that in a little while because I don't think anybody expected him to survive. It looked a couple of weeks ago like he was finished and yet somehow he is still there which just shows you the power and the strength of these populist socialist regimes and how they have a hold because they have a hold in the military because they provided the military incentives but they also have a hold on large segments of the population that don't want to see them go and as a consequence the rebellion against Maduro is just not large enough to really topple him. Not yet anyway we'll see as the days progress. Also what's going on in Mexico is interesting because it shows the continued influence of maybe the most evil and most destructive regime in this part of the world, in the Western Hemisphere, in the Americas and that is the Cuban regime. The Cuban regime and I think the Cuban regime continues to sustain itself largely because of Obama and Obama's sanction to Cuba, Obama's visit to Cuba, Obama's and the fact that Europe has sanctioned Cuba and tourism is up and I won't go to Cuba to a large extent because I will not sanction that regime and not give them the foreign exchange and the money to keep doing what they're doing but Cuba is very, very influential in Venezuela. It is the power behind the power. It is the power behind Maduro. It is Cuban military officials. It's Cuban political operatives that are in the field in Venezuela making sure that the soldiers don't defect, making sure that everything and these are not conspiracy theories. This is just fact. Cuba used to benefit enormously for Venezuela when Venezuela had a lot of money from oil but Venezuela has always been a regime, the only regime really on a large scale that has supported Cuba. The only other place in Latin America was Bolivia and the Cubans have a significant presence in Bolivia as well. They also used to have a significant presence in Brazil. There were 3,000 Cuban doctors, doctors, not real doctors but some doctors and a lot of military police and political operatives that were in Brazil during the leftist regimes of Lula and Rossoff and since Bolsonaro came to Paris, kicked the 3,000 out and it turns out that all 3,000 have gone to Mexico. So Mexico under Obado, the new president of Mexico has a very strong Cuban presence and this strong Cuban presence is only reinforcing this move towards a Venezuela like populist dictatorship or populist authoritarianism and a tilt towards socialism, a significant tilt towards socialism in the Mexican economy and we'll get to that because Mexico is not in Venezuela so this is far more disastrous and far more scary but also going to be far more difficult for them to actually implement but you see Cuba is behind much of this and Cuba is hoping to now start getting some revenue from Mexico because of course Mexico has a still functioning oil industry as compared to Venezuela and the Cuban and the Mexican president has promised Cuba significant financial resources in exchange for their help in sustaining his regime in keeping it going so you can see how the Commies are very good, very good at asserting and inserting themselves into the inter-friendly regimes and making sure that those regimes are successful and making sure that those regimes remain loyal and also making it very, very difficult just like in Cuba we haven't seen a revolution we haven't really seen one yet in Venezuela and we're unlikely I think to see one in Mexico now Mexico, it's going to be interesting because Mexico is a large, over 100 million people, 120 million people large country, a very diversified economy so it's not like Venezuela that had basically its wealth coming from oil Mexico has oil but primarily the source of wealth from Mexico is manufacturing and trade Mexico is an important hub in a globalized trading world now granted that globalization is already threatened by Donald Trump and his tariffs and anti-trade rhetoric nationalism, rise of nationalism and just a general suspicion of trade but the Mexican economy thrives on manufacturing and trade importation, it inputs a lot of stuff from China takes that stuff and assembles it into stuff that can then be imported into the United States it assembles things from American companies and brought directly into the United States it is a trading hub with Europe it is a country whose wealth over the last 20 years has really been built on the idea of low tariffs and an expanded international trade now, NAFTA is safe with the new arrangement that Trump has which I don't think he'll get through Congress but Trump has given up on attacking NAFTA and doing away with NAFTA NAFTA 2.0 is not NAFTA 2.0, it's NAFTA 1.1 it's minor revisions to the existing NAFTA so at least Mexico is safe in the sense that NAFTA is still there and NAFTA is a huge boost to its economy just like NAFTA is a huge massive boost to the U.S. economy trade after all is, shockingly, win-win but the new president, Obador, is definitely anti-trade so it's other trade policies whether it's with Asia, whether it's with Europe whether it's other Latin American countries are really at risk a really, really at risk so, you know, you could see and another thing about Mexico that's really, really important Mexico economy has done very well over the last 20 years over the last 20 years indeed, one of the reasons illegal immigration is way, way down and it is factually way, way down since really 2000 and Mexican illegal immigration as compared to illegal immigration from other central Latin American countries but Mexican illegal immigration is dramatically down since the year 2000 and I think it's something like 10% of what it was in 2000 you know, again, this is the kind of BS President Trump talks about which is, you know, about illegal immigration from Mexico it just doesn't exist or it's dramatically smaller than it used to be and the reason for that, the main reason for that is over the last 20 years the Mexican economy has done well that is the Mexican economy is the private sector has created jobs there was a lot of liberalization nowhere near as much nowhere near as much that is needed nowhere as dramatic as it should be but enough to really create some really economic dynamism in Mexico and after helped of course and trade with the rest of the world to help but also liberalization and actually in the last administration in Mexico there was a change to the constitution to actually bring private enterprise into the oil industry and to bring for the first time in at least 100 years I think back into Mexico found investment into the oil industry so Mexico was on the rise Mexico from economic perspective was doing great another example of white people don't vote their pocketbook people vote all kinds of other things but not their pocketbook if Mexicans have voted their pocketbook they would have never voted in Obrador they would have kept kind of the slightly right of center presidents that have that we have seen a string of over the last 20 years they would have kept those coming they would have done enormous good for the Mexican economy and indeed so jobs were plentiful people don't like necessarily to emigrate out particularly when a country is generally free and when jobs are plentiful and the standard of living is going up people don't leave, people don't risk the risk of illegally emigrating into the United States if life is decent where they are so the whole notion of of Mexican illegal immigration is nonsensical over the last 30 years over the last 20 years it just hasn't really existed as any kind of force and indeed it's been negative illegal immigration from Mexico since the Great Recession since 2007 has been negative that is more Mexicans who are here illegally have gone back to Mexico then have emigrated in from Mexico so generally the whole hysteria over immigration has been false however however and this is the problem if Obado is successful in his economic policies what you'll see is the Mexican economy tanking and if the Mexican economy tanks then you will see a significant and it might not even have to tank to the extent to the extent that tanks in Venezuela to see to see unemployment go up and if unemployment in Mexico goes up if the Mexican economy stops producing jobs at the rate it has produced for the last 20 years then you will start seeing a rise in people from Mexico trying to enter the United States and in numbers far, far greater than what we've seen so far which will only fuel the populist fearmongering of Donald Trump or whoever follows him as the next populist president of the United States and I think this is the irony here it is Trump I think that ultimately made Obado possible that is I think that what led Mexicans to vote for socialist, populist, nationalist is the anti-Hispanic, anti-Mexican vile language of Donald Trump it was the unbelievable anti-Mexican coming out of the US culminating with the idea of building a wall and the Mexico paying for the wall which of course turned out to be one more big unbelievable lie that fueled Mexican nationalism, that fueled Mexican populism, that fueled Mexican anti-Americanism and they voted not so much not so much for a not so much for a what do you call it a socialist president as they did vote for populist, nationalist anti-American president who they believed would be much better standing up against against Donald Trump and so Trump brought Obrador to power Obrador is actually going to tank the Mexican economy which is actually going to raise and potentially to massive levels the number of people trying to cross the border illegally from Mexico into the United States which will then increase the power of populists like Trump who want to build walls and who want to fear manga and scare everybody about immigration


Hey, everybody. Yes, we're here and we're back. It's Bob Lorenz. It's Ian Joy. And Ian, you know how I want to start this? I want this conversation to be about making noise. Yeah. I need to make some noise because once sports resumes, we need noise in the stadiums if there's no people in there, right? Hey, Bob, I can hear you so much better for some reason. Is it something to do with your microphone? I mean, what's going on? Why do I hear you better? I have an IT guy. His name is Ian Joy and he told me just turn this little knob on the microphone and the audio will be so much better. Weird, isn't it? You sound good. And yeah, speaking of sound, I mean, it's been an interest in the news recently. Live sports is obviously making its comeback and the talk is going to be with no attendance of fans inside the stadiums for broadcasters. What are they going to do? Are they going to choose to use fake fan noise? Are they going to use fake audio for the supporters or fans or attendants or whatever it may be? And we've watched that in the German Soccer League this past weekend and it made it quite a stir. All right. So tell me about that. Actually, yesterday when you and I were chatting, you had to race off to go see a Bundesliga match, right? And it was a broadcast that they had the enhanced audio where they put in the crowd noise. What did you think? Yeah. Well, yesterday was the biggest game of the German season. It was Bayern Munich, the champions against Borussia Dortmund, probably the second biggest club in Germany.  Normally, there's 80,000 fans inside the stadium watching this game, Bob. And it's loud. You can barely hear anything. I've actually been to the game in attendance. It's so loud. And of course, they wanted to try something different on different broadcasters. So in the UK, they chose to have no fans, no noise, no audio, just listen to the ball being moved around. And you can hear the players communicating. It is pretty cool if you're into that type of thing. And I am. I love listening to. I can understand German. So for me, it's fun to listen to. But at the same time, I miss listening to the atmosphere. I miss listening to the buzz of the game. And yesterday, I got to admit, in the United States, they did a great thing at Fox. They actually put on an incredible sound noise. So they've got someone who's operating the sound from what's happening on the field. So if there's a shot, you'll have someone push a button and it'll go, Oh, it's quite amazing, Bob, that they came up with something like this. I love it. It's like a new TV specialty, right? It's a niche job for somebody in TV. Now you get to be the fake audio crowd guy. But you know, what's interesting to me is when I first thought of that, you could look at it on one hand, well, it's fake crowd noise. That's deceptive, you know? But then I thought about it like, it's not because you're letting people know that you're doing this. It actually is an enhancement to me as opposed to, Oh, we're trying to trick anybody into thinking that there's a crowd there. It's a huge difference to me. Yeah. Listen, when baseball returns, you're going to feel something deep inside that will hurt because you will normally be used to seeing the fans, the noise when the players take to the field, you hear the cheers, the claps. That's not there anymore because we're in a different time at this moment. So we've got to change. We've got to work with the times that have been put in front of us. And that's what the German League tried to do. And I think that's what other federations are going to have to try and do. Other leagues will have to try and do as well. I think it would be pretty cool for networks to have the option. What would be really cool is if you're the viewer at home and you have the option.  I think I'm going to just listen to it with no noise. I can just listen to whatever's going on on the field. You can push a button and then all of a sudden you can hear this audio that would be normally a filled stadium. I think that would be a cool option to have. It's a great idea. And when games do resume, I'd like to think on, yes, if there are no fans in the stands that we could air a broadcast without it, kind of kick the tires on it, see how it feels. And then maybe the next day, you wear it with the enhanced audio.  And you're right.  But having been a professional athlete, you know what it's like to be in that stadium. And I know they're not hearing the crowd noise. But what does that mean to a player? Like you said, the energy level just changes. Well, here's a great start for you already from the Soccer League in Germany. There has been 22 games that have taken place up until today, right now, 22 games since they returned to action. There has been only three home victories from 22 games. It tells you that the home field advantage is simply not there anymore. Of course, teams are still having to travel. You're still having to go into a hotel. But sort of the home team now before going into games, they're in quarantine. So they're away from their families. They're in home, you know, the home field advantage for me, it's just simply going to be lost. And it's going to make this very interesting now. So I'd say watch the space. Yeah, and what I also find interesting too is we're really starting to move forward. You mentioned the German soccer, they're playing baseball in Korea. Major League Baseball is trying to hammer something out with the players to return. We saw the NHL has come out with sort of a template to have a playoff system that would eventually get to the Stanley Cup finals. So it's all really positive stuff as we look forward. Yeah, everything's starting to bubble now. You're getting the feeling that one's made a comeback, which was obviously the UFC, then NASCAR, the German Soccer League, they're sort of set and stone their plan. And everybody's learning from their mistakes, but they're also learning from what they have done correctly. And I think that's the right way to go. So it gives Major League Soccer, NHL, MLB, it gives NBA, everyone an opportunity to take their time and put the right plan in place. I thought the NHL put a pretty good plan. I mean, I'm excited to see hockey back, of course, I'm excited to see all sports back. We all can't wait for it. But I just think that everyone's starting to get creative now. And you've got to be very careful how creative you get. Yesterday, I think it was in the NBA when Damien Lillard was commenting about if the games don't mean anything, I don't want to play. You've got to make sure if you're going to bring sports back, there's something to play for. We're in a different time right now. So give these players, these athletes who are used to challenging, competing, wanting to win, give them something to play for. If you make it a playoff format, cool, but give every team an opportunity to make those playoffs. You don't want to feel a little bad because I didn't mention another one, the Premier League is not back yet, but they're ramping things up. Contact and practices, full practices. That's a really good sign for them. Yeah, it is. And of course, each country is different, you know, handling the pandemic and issues with COVID-19 has been different in different areas around the world. So they've got to be careful how they implement their own rules and regulations, what they do, making sure that everybody stays disciplined to those rules. But it will be interesting to see when each country makes that comeback. But for me, it's all about this country where we are. I love to see NASCAR, the UFC make their comeback. That was terrific. I can't wait to see the Yankees take to the field again. I can't wait to see the Nets get back on the court again. I mean, those are moments in your life that you're missing out. And that's what I feel sorry for right now for our fans, for our viewers who are so used to having sports in their life. People live for sports, Bob. So we need it back, but we must make sure we're cautious when we bring it back. Yeah, there's no doubt about that. I think for our future shows, maybe you and I should have some crowd noise pumped in, some sound effects when we do this. What do you think about that? And isn't it funny though, too, I was thinking about this. You can have crowd noise and you mentioned that they're in soccer, there were the chants from the fans and there's the applause when a goal is scored. But you could go overboard, right? You could have like crazy sound effects and kazoos and just you don't want it to become a mockery, right? Now the ideas are starting to fall off, right? How about this one, right? How about we take it a step further? Not only do you have an option as a viewer to choose the fake fan noise inside the stadium, you also have a separate option for Bob and Ian to do the commentary on the game. How about that? Now that would be option three options. You've got main commentary, listening to the players, listening to what's happening in the stadium. Then you've got the fine audio, if you want. And then number three, fine audio with Bob and Ian. Now we've got Yes Network, Yes Two and Yes Three. Tune in to all three. Ian, always good to see you, buddy. Talk to you soon. It's a pleasure.


This compulsory education is murder of all soft skills in this country. Listen, the guy looks like an illiterate, he can't read and write, but he is like magical with his geometry. This is India's USP. We are still in the pole position, but will we get our engine started or will we sit there only? Very well. Oh my God. I think with the lockdown, I think all the technologies are going to improve in the next few months. You know, we had the cyclone, we didn't have internet for over a one and a half weeks. The first two, three was claustrophobic because that's like true vipassana when you don't have a cell phone, but then we got used to it pretty soon. And since I've lost so much time with you and time is very precious and I'm sure that everybody's waiting to listen to what you have to say. I'll shoot off my first question. It said the destruction gives to regeneration. Do you believe that there will be a long lasting change brought on by this crisis? How will it impact people and society as a whole in the future? Because everybody is so uncertain about what future is going to be. What do you think is the world going to change too? So about destruction being the basis of regeneration, definitely a certain amount of destruction or disruption gives room for regeneration. How actively it regenerates? Because we need to understand we are talking about an existential principle in terms of social context. Existential is very true when something is destroyed, regeneration happens in full vigor. But a social context is a very different thing. We as human beings will be really rejuvenate in a big way or we will be going to a very safety kind of mode, self-defensive mode. This is left to individual people and the leaders in the world, not just political leaders, the economic leaders and the social leaders and everybody who is an influencer in the world, how we respond to this. So in my opinion, because still there is no sign of post-COVID yet, nobody knows, okay? Everybody is expecting it. We were expecting it in May. Then we were expecting in June, now June is almost gone. So we are still expecting. The most basic thing that all of us need to understand is not one scientific voice has clearly said, this is the nature of this virus, this is what we could do with it. Even if we don't have an immediate solution, these are the things we could do with it. There is no such thing. Nobody has yet said anything. I was talking to a group of prominent doctors in the world and they were saying, every day on an average, 128 scientific papers are being presented on this virus. That means they are all gathering bits and pieces that nobody has a clear picture exactly how. So having said that, because there is no clear picture of the virus, what is post-virus or when is post-virus is not clear to anybody. So people are talking about learning to live with it. What does learning to live with it mean? That both of us are talking and one of us will fall dead and we learn to live with it, okay? So learning to live with it, yes, we will learn to live with it just about anything, whatever terrible things happened to us after some time, we'll learn to live with it. But that is human apathy, that is not a human response. So if we are talking about regeneration, we must see existentially there is nothing really wrong in the world right now. It is a human social situation that we don't know how to handle this. As you were talking about no cell phone means you're going to be questioned or mowed. If that was the real thing, if humanity was in that state, this would be very simple, the government had to just say, 15 days all of you meditate, don't do anything else and virus will be gone 14-day quarantine without any contact, it will be over. But we are not in that kind of state, people are going about they have to go for work, somebody has to just go for a haircut, and somebody has to protest, somebody has to do something else, somebody is even starting a war, all these issues are there. So we are not going to behave like that. Because of that how long the virus will last we don't know. But in my opinion, if it ends by September, let's say, then people will talk about it for three, four, six months and after that they will just go back to their whatever their normal was.  But if it lasts for 12-18 months or more, in case the situation lasts that way, then definitely it will have a more lasting impact on this generation of people. Economy definitely it will have a big impact. There are some aspects of our lives that all of us have been going at it as if there is no tomorrow. So the virus has brought a certain amount of at least some contemplation of what are we doing? Because anyway we all knew, we all knew the way we are going in this world, our economic engine which is driving this planet right now, at the same rate we go there is no future, there is no future generations if we go like this, we know this. But we've been going because you're going, I'm going, I'm going, you're going, like this we've been going. So the virus has brought a halt to it. I think this must be, if we are really conscious human beings, we should make use of this in a conscious way and definitely craft a more, a better, a better is a very relative word, I would say a more conscious world, a more conscious planet as such. It is possible to do that because at least now people are, you know, kind of stuck in their home, so you can at least talk to them now. Earlier you couldn't talk to them, now you can at least talk to them and they're in a listening mode because things are disturbed or dislocated in their lives. So if it lasts long enough, I think that rethinking will come, but if it goes off by September, I think people will just get back to their normal self very quickly. Okay, you know, since we are talking about the economy, my next question to you will be that will the world move from capitalism to responsible capitalism or will it move to socialism? It's a thought that we are all pondering over as we watch everything unfold around us. Sustainability and rapid economic growth haven't historically gone hand in hand. Reducing carbon footprint, addressing climate change, which also will mean that we need to slow down our consumption and reimagine our economies. But one fears that this might also lead to huge job cuts and a big job crisis all over the world. What can governments around the world do collectively and individually to balance this? Well, that will need a whole paper. That question is a very... Well, essentially, let me talk about India. In India, still sixty to sixty-two percent of the world's country's population is in agriculture. So that is a huge safety net because the monsoons are expected to be good this year. If you focus on agricultural production, one important thing is nobody will die of starvation. That's a basic concern for me. As long as people are nourished, maybe people will buy less of your clothes, will buy less of everything, that doesn't matter. But nobody is dying of starvation, everybody is well nourished. Well-nourished human beings with time on their hands can be very productive. They can come up with something tremendous, something absolutely new that we have not done till now. So sixty percent is there, that is a safety net. And because sixty percent is involved in agriculture and now a whole lot of people from cities have kind of reverse migrated back to villages, both agriculture and textile could take off in a big way because forty-five million people in this country are employed in textile industry. And this was our real strength at one time. We have so much population agriculture mainly because many of the weavers went back to agriculture for survival. After the East India Company came and destroyed, systematically destroyed our industry, mainly textile industry. At one time we are clothing the whole of Europe. Most valued cloth came from this country.  So that size of that sustainable market is gradually improving. I think month on month it is kind of expanding. So because of that we have an immense possibility in this country, agriculture and textiles, and of course there are many other allied things which can be done. But for the rest of the world, those who are completely running on, you know, there are economies which are running only on purchasing power of the people. So there there will be serious dislocations. What they will do we have to see because always it's been about putting money in people's hands and they will buy something. And this rotation has been going on and all the time people are getting into deeper and deeper debts and they're buying more and more endlessly fueling this consumption. Those economies will be hit. I think a large part of world economy has moved in that direction, so that part will be hit. In my opinion if I could be completely wrong, I am not an economist or something, I'm just gauging from people's moods and how they are and how things are happening. Let's say twelve months if this virus situation continues, I would say maybe we will have to live like how we lived here about twenty years ago, fifteen or twenty years ago. When I say twenty years ago, in the last decade people tell me, because you're, I mean I'm not just aiming at the textiles, but because you're in that you understand those volumes better than anything else. They're saying we are buying five times more clothing than our grandparents and in the next five years they're saying we're going to double that. That means ten times we will have. Well, only one pair we can wear at any time. We like style, we like variety, all right, we can do all that. But an endless amount of consumption of anything, textile is not the only thing. These days people are buying phones every six months, whether it is working or not working well. You know, things which are in good functioning mode, they're throwing it away and buying another thing and another thing. Simply because it's become a statement, this is the way they try to enhance their individual nature, which is a very basic way of living that human being has to enhance himself or herself only because of what they possess is a very, very unfortunate way to live. So that dimension probably most people will begin to realize if we suddenly start living like how we were twenty years ago. It was not bad twenty years ago, as far as I can remember, not bad at all. Maybe we had much less than what we have today, but I think it's perfectly okay. So one thing that every nation should focus on is agricultural production because people should not starve, there must be food in the every nation. If this one thing is taken care of, if we roll back a little bit with all the technologies that we have in the last twenty years, the advancement of technology, communication especially, especially see from Coimbatore to Kolkata we are talking right now, with all this, if our consumption reduces not because of our wisdom, simply because our pockets are shallow, I don't think it's a very bad thing. My only concern is people should not go into starvation mode. I think in this country, we are well-endowed in that direction. Every other nation also should prepare for that. Thank you. It's very well said because I really think that what the lockdown taught many of us was to appreciate the basics. And I think, you know, there is a saying in Bengali that we sometimes lo kitchu ko lo ko boro, which means that we sometimes focus more on the periphery than on the core. But I think for India the lesson is that... Not sometimes, all the time, most people. Yes. They put the core food first on the table, human lives first. Fashion can come much later. You know, Sadhguru... You can do style with very little things. Absolutely. See, even a thousand years ago, those who were stylish were stylish, isn't it? Right. Even the caveman, just with his loincloth also he did his own style. It's okay. You know, you were talking about nourishment and I want to ask you something about wellness. They are both related. Even before the pandemic, the topic of wellness had become very popular all over the world. I view its rise in popularity as a direct response to the effects of excessive capitalism. People feel overworked, tired. I mean, I haven't slept well for the last 10 years because I was constantly on a work treadmill. And now people are looking for new ways to slow down. They are understanding how beautiful life can be and they want to all achieve a better quality of life. Tell us a little more about the importance of wellness in the modern world and what kind of a role would India play in it? I would like to deal with these two things. Slow life is well-being, I don't think so. Even in a very fast lane, you can still be well. I'm always on a fast lane but I'm very well. So, wellness and lazy life need not necessarily be connected. You could be working very hard and still be very well because the question is only are you... Is your life an expression of your joy or are you working in pursuit of your happiness? That makes all the difference. If your work and if your activity is an expression of your joyfulness then work is not going to deplete you. It only enhances you. So, I would like to first of all, dealing those two things. Well, for many of them who are just started working for a living, many people. They got a job mainly to make a living but then they got mad about their job and endlessly they went on. Such people are suffering their jobs. In United States of America, they tell me seventy percent of the population, some surveys say not like their work, they hate their work. So, when we were looking at why are so many drug overdoses are happening in the weekends, you know? One Saturday evening in Ohio, in a small town near Dayton, I think, Dayton, Ohio, twenty-three cars were found where people were lying overdosed that they won't wake up, they need hospital to wake up, that kind of people, not just drunk or drugged. They have drugged to that point where they need a hospital to bring them back. Twenty-three in the cars, they sit somewhere in the parking lots here, there and they go into these states. So, we were looking at why is it people Saturday evening means they have to go crazy, actually it's Friday, thank God it's Friday, you know, that whole concept. So, when we were looking at it, we found that seventy percent of the Americans hate their work. When five days of the week, you do something that you hate. Oh my God, you will want to go away from this world. So, in a way a drug or excessive alcohol, all these are a way of going away from this world. Weekend is not a rest time, weekend is a way to obliterate yourself because five days of the week you're doing something that you don't care for.  When you realize this and this is very important in this culture, we always, from childhood we always made people conscious that this is mortal life. You're mortal, that means you're on a limited lease of time. If you understand this every moment, at least making use of this lockdown, if people understand we are mortal, we have very little time to live. As we sit here, our life is just ticking away. If we know this, I think naturally people will do what matters most to them. If every human being is doing what really, really matters to that human being, I think we have a beautiful world. Absolutely, I think it's also time for everybody to reprioritize because I see the same thing in the business that I'm in that a lot of people are so unhappy doing what they want to do and I think they need to be aligned back to what they really want from their life. Anyway, coming back to fashion and beauty. The fashion and the beauty industry for the longest time have preyed on people's insecurities to increase their bank balance. We are constantly telling people to become better versions of themselves. Sometimes so much so that we alienate people from who they really are, we are constantly trying to make them look different from who they are, change their personalities. I don't personally think it's a very sustainable business model. I've said this in many interviews. I just want to ask you, what are your thoughts on the fashion and the beauty industry and how do you think that fashion and beauty together can contribute to a much more sustainable and a positive dialogue that's going to create wellness in society? By fashion, you mean just clothes, accessories and stuff, not cosmetic surgery, right? Everything, sir. Fashion and beauty. Including cosmetic surgery. Cosmetic surgery, in many ways, when you look at clothing, I think that sometimes the fashion industry, what we do is we are constantly trying people to adapt to newer clothing that they are not comfortable with. I might not say it's a cosmetic change, but it definitely is a change. So I wanted to ask you, how is it that we can realign people to who they really are, still create a business and create more wellness and less anxiety in the world? I was talking to a very senior lawyer in United States. She's a vice president in the company and this company is the second largest law firm in United States. It's a very senior position, but she's only in her late forties, a brilliant lawyer. But I was staying with them and I just saw how she has to get ready in the morning, walk up and down, take calls on high heels and tight clothes and struggling. I said, isn't it so hot to be a woman? Why have you made it so extremely hot to be a woman? I have seen my mother, my aunts and my, you know, many other women around me who are very comfortable the way they are, that's the way they are, the way they make themselves up, is very easy. But the way certain fashion, what to say, concepts have made them is it's so extremely difficult to be a woman, constantly walking on stilts and you know, all that problems, the tightness of the clothes, you can't sit, you can't stand, everything is difficult. So in a way, trying to fit people into male needs, especially women, because fashion means largely it's been a woman's domain, slowly men are coming into the picture, but still I think it's a small number if I'm right. So I think the entire fashion industry for a long time has been trying to fit a woman into a male requirement. I think you should fit a woman into a woman's requirement of what she wants to be rather than how a man wants her to look. So I think if that change happens, a whole lot of things in the world will change. And if a woman dresses the way it is comfortable and nice for her, rather than how it is nice for a man to look at, if that is done, I think many things about how women will come out in the society, how they will function, how will they will succeed in various aspects of life, all these things could change significantly if only fashion is not... women's fashion is not defined by male requirements. Well, men's fashion, I don't think it is defined by women's requirement, I think it's largely by the male requirements, so I don't think there's any change needed there. But above all, being comfortable with what you wear and just everybody has, you know, like, even a bird grows colored feathers to make itself attractive. So it is the nature of the lives on this planet to wanting to look better than what it is, little enhancement of who they are, it's perfectly fine, it's not... it's not something for me to comment upon. But going overboard in terms of killing all your comfort, your well-being, everything just to look in a particular way, I think this has to go, I think you've done a lot in this direction to bring back, you know, organic clothing where naturally the comfort in this kind of tropical nation, organic clothing is so very comfortable, most people don't know what that is and hope right now this... whatever people are protesting against the Chinese police, so with this I hope little more handlooms and organic cottons and silks in this country will grow because it looks like there's going to be a big movement in that direction. So the comfort of being in a... in a... in a cloth that's been produced with care with a certain involvement more than anything, somebody who loves to do it, does it, I'm not saying the cloth will be dripping with his lover, what? That's not the point. The point is what human beings have contributed to must... must come to you and stay close to you. Not something that just falls out of a machine like that. That mass production idea has gone into textiles, started with Manchester, and it's okay if you're producing steel nuggets, you can produce mass produce, but clothing which is so intimate to a human being must be hand produced as much as possible, if not completely. Education must become a designer, you know? Right now we have mass education like a extruder, it is dropping children out in one shape, whatever happens to that individually doesn't matter, you got him into the shape that you want. So fashion should not be in that context that you got somebody into the shape that you want. No, it must be the way it will enhance that person at the same time enhance not just in appearance, in comfort, in well-being, in every sense it should enhance that person. Thank you. You know, in fashion we have a new movement that's coming up which is called the female gaze. You're so right because fashion has been dominated by male designers for the longest time, but right now spectacular pieces of women's wear is being created by women designers. In fact, in my company 90% of the women, 90% of the people who are holding top position are women and I specifically choose women without being sexist, it's just a strategy because I think women understand women's clothing and their needs and their bodies more and it helps us to understand women from a female gaze which is so important, it's happening in photography, it's happening in advertising, it's happening in fashion and you're so right, thank you so much. I have another question. That's a good movement, that's a good direction to go. Yeah. As a man, we can only assume what it is to be a woman, we can never be a woman. So it's always important to take the direction from a woman, we are dressing up a woman, it's so important. There is a shift recently, there's a shift in fashion towards sustainability and I wanted to ask you about your work with the Isha Foundation, you all have started something called Fashion for Peace which I was a small part of in New York. I wanted to know more about what you are doing with sustainability, what you're doing with Fashion for Peace, what is your intention and where you're taking this movement. We connected some of the New York fashion designers, American designers and some Indian ones, I mean Indian origin people with the local clusters of weavers and cloth makers. So that connection we are making and now we are trying to... This is in the works but it's taken longer than we thought it would. We want to create some kind of a textile exchange about handmade cloth and those in different parts of the world who are willing to use it. This is not a business venture, it's more like a social venture where this exchange will link people up and even stock up some things and transportation and other things which they are not able to handle. Even to dispatch a little bit of goods, they don't know what to do to create those kind of clusters as a... more like a social activity rather than a commercial activity. But I feel apart from us, somebody must take it up as a commercial activity, then only it will become much larger. We are doing it more as a setting up a model for people to do it in much bigger scale. On the social level, we cannot scale up because there is no profit margin so scaling up becomes a difficult process for us. That's what we are right now at. Thank you. I want to ask you another question. We have demonstrated great skills in IT, in telecom but I think India still has to tap the potentials of some of our greatest assets, our soft skills, you know, our heritage or craft traditions which are so unique to us and which have been sustained over generations and years. What role can our government along with influencers, along with businesses, along with consumers do to be able to promote the soft skills of India, to promote the traditional culture of India and to create that into a cultural capital in the global market? Well, in many ways, I know I will become very unpopular by saying what I will say now. But this compulsory education is murder of all soft skills in this country because in this country, we learn to do things with our hands in a way that you can't imagine possible, many wonderful things. And these things won't happen that you can learn after eighteen years of age. You have to learn much earlier. You have to observe your parents doing it or you have to be there, you know, to get that skill. I will tell you, my families, my relatives, many of them are very much involved in silk weaving and silk printing in Bangalore, Mysore, that region. And we've also been silk cultivators, you know, Malburi cultivators and all that in our families. So at one point, because I was determined to not to qualify for anything in the university, I was just doing literature and just having my time. So my father thought I must get into some business because I'm not getting educated properly. So he sent me, why don't you go and see this silk industry that my uncle is one of the leading business people at that time in Bangalore. So why don't you go and see? I went there and I thought I'll just see. I was not thinking of getting into the industry, but I thought, let me go and see.  And he doesn't have a diagram, definitely no computer, nothing like magic is just doing like this and like that, when flower comes up on the sari and he's just going on doing like this, another flower comes up, nothing is ever not aligned properly, perfect. Like today you can get those designs in computers, but in his mind it's all fixed and the guy looks like an illiterate, he can't read and write. But he's like magical with his geometry. The geometry is one thing that always kind of mind boggled me, the geometry of the existence itself, the way it is. This guy has this sense of geometry, no education, no nothing, but so fantastic, almost miraculously these flowers keep coming up without a single flaw in them. So I just sat there looking at him for whole three days before he finished this sari and it was so incredible watching this. So these kind of skills will not come by reading about it. You just have to immerse yourself in it, there is no other way. I think in our country, our idea of compulsory education needs to change. Everybody just reading about physics, chemistry, mathematics, fully knowing I'm not going to become a mathematician or a chemist or anything else, simply picking up small bits and tidbits of every science and everybody who's read a high school textbook unfortunately think they're scientists. You know, because you see the commentary that's going on in the social media, they all think they're scientists because they read a high school textbook. It is completely wrong. I feel we need to bring an education where if somebody wants to learn weaving or art or dying or whatever, you know, various things including agriculture as a part of education from an early age because these things, if you don't instinctively pick it up at an early age, suddenly you will do it at the age of twenty, it's not going to work like that. So, this so-called compulsory education sending everybody to that a British kind of education system which was only designed to produce clerks for their Her Majesty's service. We are still doing the same education, destroying all these crafts above all the biggest concern is we've made some small surveys and we found that not even two percent of the farmers are able, I mean, are able to encourage their children to go into farming next generation. So, in another twenty years, we will have a serious situation where we don't know how to grow our food. So, already we don't know how to weave our clothing, already we don't know how to weave a basket, already all these things have happened. So, if soft skills have to come, our idea of education has to go through a thorough change. This everybody going sitting there learning ABC one, two, three, three languages and you don't know anything at the age of fifteen, you're not capable of doing a thing at the age of eighteen. That is not a good way to do things if you want to have soft skills. But I feel in the future of this world, because the world is so connected today, if you really have something intricate and beautiful, the world is hungry for those things. But we are not able to... we are looking at the past. I'm talking about thousand years ago, at that time we were taking our goods all the way to Jerusalem, Damascus, you know, Greece and all these places. Today it should be so easy to do that with the transportation and the online communications we have. But in these times, we are destroying all that and studying that kind of education that, you know, what was done for an occupied nation. Thank you. In fact, I wanted to share something personal with you. You know, when I was very young, I dropped out of school for five years. I had clinical depression because my parents wanted me to study medicine. It took my father five years to convince me to go back. That is an Indian ailment. That's an Indian ailment. Everybody wants to study medicine. I know. And I did want to. And my... you know, for me, I thought that education was like an arranged marriage, that you get married and then you find love. I wanted to have a love marriage. I wanted to know what I was chasing. It created a lot of havoc inside me, but I was glad that I dropped out of school so that it gave me courage to do what I wanted to do. So I completely understand what you're saying. I have another question to ask you. You know, the American dream which was chased by a lot of people all over the world is on the verge of collapse. And a lot of people worldwide are getting disenchanted by it. And there are corridors that are... There are conversations that are happening in power corridors, cultural corridors all over the world that a new dream needs to arise for people to get hope. What do you think would India play a role in creating of that new dream? And is that role going to be big enough for India? Oh, the role is very big. The thing is, are we agile enough to get into that role? Are we quick enough? Are we wise enough to get into that role? That's the only question. Is the role big enough? The role is super big. Well, about the American dream, see, these dreams were created when our understanding of the world was like this. We will rob the whole world to satisfy the hunger of a few people. So this is called imperialism. Imperialism essentially meant this.  Right now these protests that are happening, they're pulling down Cecil Road's statue in Oxford. Because these are all heroes who robbed the entire world and fed their people. So if I rob ten people and feed my family, my family and their ignorance may be very happy. But that is not a dream for the world. That's a horrible dream. But this horrible dream grew up in those nations where there is imperialism. That is over. Now the whole world is aspiring. Every human being on the planet is aspiring to do well. Now definitely a sustainable dream has to come. When we say sustainable dream, we think in terms of ecology. Ecology is not the problem. The problem is, see, there's only one problem in the world, human being. There is simply no other problem. There is only one problem. This one problem to handle, what should we do? The only problem with the human being is, right now they're in compulsive reaction with the external situations. But the very fact that we call human a being, we don't call any other creature a being, we call this one a being because this is capable of conscious existence. So moving from unconsciousness to consciousness is the most important thing. This entire movement, what we are calling as Isha right now, is clearly described like this. This is from religion to responsibility because a responsible human being is needed. Right now we have good people. What is our idea of good people? Well, if we kill, you know, million people in another country and bring the country's wealth to our country, we are good Indians, all right? India, fortunately, never did that much, but this is how our sense of goodness has been. We may be good to somebody. Racism also means just goodness, actually, because I know somebody will cut this sentence and get me into trouble, but actually they're being very nice to their own people. They're being very nice to their own people, but enslaving everybody else for their well-being. So good is not what we need. We need sensible human beings, responsible human beings, joyful human beings because why joy is important is, when you're joyful, you will do only what is needed because you are not in pursuit of happiness. Everything, all the destruction, the so-called unsustainable activities that we have done on this planet is essentially in pursuit of human well-being and happiness. And with all these thousand years of exploitation, we are not any happier than what people were. So just for human beings to understand, human experience is crafted from within us, not from outside of us. If this one thing gets across, this is India's USP, if we get this across, then naturally we can fill that space and there are any amount of cultural strengths within us, which if we wait for another generation may go away. You know, we may already be depleting very rapidly. One more fifty years means it may be gone. We have to take that position now. We are still in the pole position in spite of all the neglect. We are still in the pole position. But will we get our engine started or will we sit there only? Because I have seen Formula One races where in the pole position the car didn't start. What do you do with that? So this is a time where India has to be agile and get into that role because we can contribute immensely because this is the only nation which is not formed on the basis of sameness of race, religion, language, ethnicity. We never looked thought of life in terms of sameness. That all of us who worship the same God, all of us should wear the same stuff, all of us should speak the same language, it never occurred to us. Every few kilometers you drive, people think different, feel different, look different, eat different, everything different. So this is a culture which has the ability to take that position. Will we take it or not? Depends on many things. I seriously hope that everybody who is listening to this chat sincerely understand that this is India's time. I personally believe it because I think great things come out of crisis is and this is, you know, the world is going to look at everything differently. Everybody all over the world is going to re-priorize their lives and I think this is India's moment and we just need to be agile enough to hold it. I wanted to ask you one more question and this is very topical. You know, governments and businesses are facing the heat from citizens and consumers worldwide because people are calling out everybody for intolerance, for non-inclusivity. These are topics that are becoming almost impossible to ignore. What are your comments on this? See, they must be definitely called out but it should not become an extreme movement. See, you cannot fix history, all right? You cannot correct history. Now going on harping on that, we will become hateful and resentful, that should not happen. At the same time, we don't have to, you know... In India, we still have an Aurangzeb Street. This is just like having an Adolf Hitler Street in Israel, all right? This is not because of somebody's religion, because of that person, what he did, all right? His attitude towards the population and what he did, it is estimated he could have killed up to four million people in his lifetime, that's what they are saying. So when there is such a record, you don't hold him as ideal, you don't name things after him, you don't make... put him up like a hero because somebody will take that. See, even now, after the disaster of Nazi, whatever happened in the 40s and 30s and 40s, even today, certain people identify with that neo-Nazi movement, whatever, they still hold that as an ideal, all right? The symbols are still held because human mind functions and kind of rides on symbols. It's very important, symbols which brought enormous suffering to humanity for whatever reason, whether it's race, religion, caste, creed, whatever, that people intentionally cross suffering, unintentionally we are causing suffering, that's a different matter. Intentionally somebody caused suffering, such symbols must be removed and future generations should not grow on those symbols, it's very, very important. Thank you, Sadhguru. Before we let you go, I have one quick question to ask you. You know, the Indian Ayurveda has been so important for our wellness and everybody, anybody that you ask, everybody is saying that do your best to keep yourself fit and agile, improve your immunity. What would you suggest is a good lockdown diet and what are things that people can incorporate which are basic things in their home to increase the immunity system? Right now, Sabia, you know, there is a group of doctors from Rutgers University, Indiana, Howard, Florida University, from various other universities come together and they studied, they made an elaborate study, this is one of the largest studies ever that's happened of what happens with inner engineering practices. One aspect I'm speaking, not the others, one aspect is it triggers and activates 230 genes in your body which are directly concerned with your immune system. So, practically we know this very well but today we have data for this. So, one important thing is everybody should bring in a simple internal practice like a Kriya. Something we are offering this online free of cost for everybody, there's something called a Simha Kriya. In six weeks time, if you have some kind of parameters to measure, you will distinctly see your immune system is much, you know, much more elevated and acting on a much better level.  Yes, we do, a lot of mustard. Mustard is also good, turmeric is very good. If you eat, this is the time of mangoes already they have ripened but raw mangoes, amla, there are many other things we can make a list and throw it out to people, already we are doing it in some level. There are many traditional things that we have naturally been consuming which makes an Indian system little different. Maybe that is one of the reasons the recovery rate in this country is the best right now in the world. Like more than 52% of the people who are going positive are recovering from that. Mainly I think it is because of the natural diet consumption that's happening. But being little more cautious, not eating oily stuff but eating more, you know, steamed kind of stuff is much better. But I can't tell people what to eat there at home out of their frustration that they must be eating pav, bhaji and what. What is that, what is that? What are something in Mumbai, what is that? What about pav, okay. So you can't stop them from that, they will fry chillies and eat, it's okay. But if they keep a simple practice which takes 12-15 minutes a day, a couple of times a day if they do it, their immune system will be much better. Right now the most important responsibility for every human being is that you don't get infected, that's the most important thing. And if you do get infected, you must ensure from you it does not go to one more person for whatever reason, it doesn't matter. People think out of love they can spread infection and it's okay. Whether it's a love or hate, both ways it's not okay because the end result is same. And during this season however long this lasts, you and me and everybody else, everybody else who is a sensible human being must take a commitment that we will stay alive. This is not a joke. This is not a joke, this is not a news channel, this is for real. Little irresponsibly if you behave you could be dead, alright? So it's very important in this entire period everybody should take this commitment no matter what I will stay alive because that is the most important thing. Because in you staying alive you are also keeping the country and the world alive in many ways. Thank you, thank you. Thank you, thank you everybody for watching us. I'm really sorry about the glitch. So that was Sadhguru for you and Savya Sachi on the L Instagram handle. Good evening and take care. Namaskaram. I don't know why I'm on the fashion channel. Thank you. Thank you.