of what can sexual justice look like. I'm your chair, Dalia Gabriel, and I'm an editor at Navarra Media. The inspiration for this event really came from the fact, obviously it came from the Me Too movement, but we saw that there was this huge wave of testimonies of sexual violence in every sector, in every industry, in every area of society. For many of us who have experienced this kind of violence and harassment is something that we've spoken amongst ourselves and learned to expect in all parts of life, but it's not really been part of the public sphere in the way that it is now. So whilst this has been really inspiring to watch, we've kind of realized that there isn't really the second part, which is like, okay, now that we know about this and now that it's public, what do we do next? And it seems that that's where the movement starts to split up a little bit. There's that kind of quite carceral approach which sees prison as the answer. There's also ideas of restorative justice, but everyone's a bit unclear of what that means or there's divisions over what that could look like. So the aim of this event is really to try and begin that conversation to really push this forward beyond just confession and testimony. So, as promised, we have three incredible speakers. To begin with, we have Eleanor Penny, who is a senior editor at Navarra Media. We also have Paris Lees, who is a writer, journalist and campaigner. And we have Dr Shola Mos Chogbemimu, who is a lawyer and founder of Women in Leadership Publication and is one of the organisers of the Women's March in London. So the way it's going to work is we're going to open with some five to ten opening remarks from each of our speakers. Then we'll open up to the floor and have a more open discussion. So Eleanor, would you like to go first? You don't have an option, actually, because I'm the chair and I get to decide. Cool. Ah, can you hear me? Cool. Hi. So, I want to talk about what happens in hotel rooms. So I want to take you way, way, way back to the ffated hours of 2011 when the then head of the IMF, who was Dominique Strauss-Carn, was indicted by a grand jury in the U.S. for sexual assault and attempted rape of a maid at a suffotel hotel in New York. After pleading not guilty, his bail was set at one million, which was kind of like petty change for him. And the woman in question was Napisatu Dialu, who was a Muslim immigrant from Guinea. She was a divorced single mother to a teenage daughter. She was allegedly pursued down the hallways of this luxury hotel that she cleaned for a pittance by a man who pretty much held the purse strings of global economic markets. So if you want a vision of these monstrous mechanics of global sexual power, I don't think we need to look much further than this. Actually all charges against Strauss-Carn were eventually dropped and we're told that rape charges ruin a man's career but actually he's just made a comeback onto the political scene at the behest of Emmanuel Macron, my favourite whipping boy for neoliberalism. So the important thing here is that Dialu is not alone. The hospitality industry is rife with sexual assault and cultures of abuse and impunity. Also happens to be staffed by disproportionately migrant women of colour, often on low pay on precarious work with uncertain migration status, aka by the people who are least empowered to challenge their bosses and their clients, et cetera, whoever might be harassing or assaulting them. I mention this because I find it so interesting that the stories which sparked this recent inferno took place by the people who frequent hotel rooms rather than the people who clean them. I don't want to diminish the trauma of starlets and the actresses who came forward. Sexual violence is terrible always in all circumstances and having money doesn't necessarily cushion the immediate trauma of that. But it is important and revealing that the most effective blow in the battle of rape culture was dealt by women who were relatively in more stable social positions who weren't gambling on future incomes by coming forward.  There's a clear reason for this that your ability to challenge rape culture is massively inflected, not just by your gender, but by other factors of race, of class, migration status, economic power. Basically it's not just about Hollywood, it's also about Yarlswood, right? So in the wake of Me Too, we talk about changing the conversation around consent and detoxifying our deeply troubling attitudes to sex and that's absolutely true. But when we say rape and violence is about power more than it is about sex, we really need to couple that with a response which doesn't just tackle our attitudes to sex, it tackles our structures of power. It tries to rectify a power imbalance in which sexual abuse flourishes. And those conditions are conditions of social, economic and political hierarchy which make it almost impossible for women to come forward. So when we talk only about attitudes, we make sexual violence not a structural problem but a problem of individual moral failing and that doesn't imply a structural solution so that seems like immediately woefully inadequate. To my eyes it's something that can't be just solved by replacing people in power with more morally upstanding people or even just people of a different gender but by challenging those power hierarchies in and of themselves. Because by challenging it on an individual basis we end up with solutions that just aren't scalable. They might make us feel some kind of catharsis immediately but I think that catharsis is a pretty doomed dead end because we know from the revelations of me too that statistically speaking there are millions millions and millions of people committing these acts of petty violence every day and if we turn to carceral solutions and if we turn to like public flagellation as our one and only solution that just has absolutely no hope of scaling and so challenging these power dynamics demands very very concrete solutions not just for instance opening more domestic abuse refuge centres and things like securing rights at work, tackling border policing, decriminalising sex work and more over wrenching the debate about protecting women away from the hands of the far right who don't really give a fuck about it honestly at the end of the day and this is why I genuinely believe better workers rights and things like universal basic income and universal basic services will do an enormous amount to rectify those power imbalances and allow women to challenge cultures in which violence flourishes. I want survivorship to be like a political category because one of the great insights of feminist theory is the idea that the person is political and of course that's totally right but we can't let the political collapse into the personal. We need to make survivorship about a political category emanating from the observation that collective trauma is part and parcel of the way people experience gender and that encapsulates billions of people on the planet cis women, trans women white women, women of colour every single woman experiences these systems and violence and like navigates them every day and we also need to recognise the feedback loop between exclusion from formal and economic power and sexual violence so not only does sexual violence flourish in hierarchy, sexual violence is actually a way of maintaining those hierarchies. Rate culture acts as like a system of domination by which women are systematically excluded from public spaces and from institutional power because they're just threatened with violence when they dare to take a little bit of power and a little bit of public oxygen just think of the language that's used against women when they get a little bit uppity or when they dare to enter parliament or to have an opinion on the internet as I'm sure everyone in this panel couldn't testify and it's kind of almost most visible when we think of how it's used in largely male spaces like in the army and in boys only public schools rape is used to practice and reinforce sexual hierarchies like as an act of domination all the boys assault younger boys, people of higher ranks assault people of lower ranks so our dominant social institutions are populated by people trained on the idea that sex is a way to test your own power and the limits of that on other people's bodies in a way sexual violence is very much a tool used to regulate women's participation in public space and in work and in domestic life so to my eye sexual violence is not only like a pandemic problem it's also like a technology of work because it very much ensures, maintains systems which keep women out of more powerful positions actually in 2016 this was made central to the Neonomanos Argentinian women's movement when like half a million women went on strike precisely against the pandemic levels of female sexual violence in Argentina and according to this uniting these different women struggles was the idea that women had essentially a categorically unsafe working condition and those are conditions that they just decided to refuse to accept and a lot of people like hand ringing about how this means like oh we can never have sex again and all these feminazis are purposefully misinterpreting like comsy comons as attempted assault which is obviously massively disingenuous but I also think that it's worth dwelling on the fact here that this movement is kind of ultimately about creating the conditions of good sex and by that I mean allowing people to embrace their sexuality in a situation where that doesn't mean encountering a system that's like freighted and menaced with the legacy of just like thousands and thousands of years of systemic sexual violence so yeah I want to decouple sex from a system of violence unless you're into that I don't know how to follow that Can I just say I'm actually really pleased that it snowed because I feel like the people that are here are like really actually want to be here and we've rooted out some people's hearts just weren't completely in it to be honest so thank you and can I also just say how refreshing it is to actually be talking about some real shit because forgive them for thinking wouldn't you that the most pressing issue affecting women in Britain in 2018 is telling trans women that they're not real women so it's really how, literally how nuts is that how much time we devote to speaking about that and it's really good to be talking about this because we know that for me personally it's good to be talking about this that trans women also suffer disproportionately from sexual harassment but I've found this really upsetting and difficult to talk about actually particularly when the Harvey Weinstein thing broke and all of these horrible stories were coming out like I just couldn't look on social media I don't know how it affected everybody else but I have experience as I think clearly it's emerging now most women have done all different sorts of ranging from just comments to real sexual violence and just finding it really difficult and I can kind of understand why it has been swept under the carpet for so long because there's a part of me that's just like I don't want to think about it it's very upsetting, please put it over there and can we just pretend it's not happening but it has been happening we all know it's been happening and we're having a conversation about it now and I think that that's fantastic and I do draw parallels it might seem like a weird kind of comparison to make but between this and the trans thing really because I kind of feel like it's like a new thing, the Me Too movement we're having this conversation now but it's like this has been happening for hundreds of years and you'd kind of think where have all these trans people come from and it's like, no people have always been there feeling like that feeling short changed by the system and the way things are but they just, you didn't hear about it and we weren't able to speak about it people have always just quietly been getting abused and feeling that they didn't have a voice and now people are actually talking about what's really going on in the world and we are here and this is how we're being treated and it's about time that we had a conversation about it and a lot of thoughts have been running through my head because I do think a lot of this stuff is really complicated actually and going back and reassessing situations that I've been in in light of hearing other people and thinking that was harassment basically I used to go meet guys for sex in toilets when I was 14 very classy and I was a pretty vulnerable LGBT kids at that time and you know I always knew it was wrong but now I look at that and even though I was consenting on a certain level by putting myself in that situation I mean what is that but abuse and so kind of going back and looking at things and kind of reframing them in my mind and you know a lot of just thinking like are we getting a bit carried away that it's all going a little bit too far and I just think it will know that it was wrong 5 years ago it was wrong 10 years ago it was wrong 20 years ago it was wrong 50 years ago and we know this because the people that have done these things have done these things to me and to other people if somebody did that to someone in their family to a woman in their family they would go mental so it's always been wrong we're not just saying that it's wrong now it has always been wrong and we knew that it was wrong deep down on some level because we know there's a right and wrong way to treat people and we feel it viscerally it's not right to sexually harass people ultimately so I think it's great we're having this conversation and I think that it does need to go somewhere obviously but I just keep thinking when is it going to stop because we are having a conversation about gender we're having a conversation about the way men and women treat each other what we want to change and I keep thinking oh it's all just going to blow it everyone's going to stop talking about it now the MPs expenses and then everyone gets upset about it and actually more stuff comes through and you see people like Harvey Weinstein getting dragged down and he's on Kevin Spacey and I agree it's about more than public scalping of people but actually you look at that you think no there is some momentum to this so where is it going to go next and I do believe that it comes down to education because at the end of the day we have urges as human beings and 500 years ago society was much more violent you're much more likely to be murdered in this country at least so things can change people can learn to control their natural urges I'm not necessarily saying that raping somebody is a natural urge but we all of us have to go through a process of learning to be civilised and control you know if we could all act with impunity there are people that I probably would have got strangled by now so I believe that it is possible to teach people to be better versions of themselves and I have to believe that and history shows us that that is true so we need to talk about boys the focus needs to be on boys because not all men but obviously a significant fucking proportion and this is the thing that we haven't really talked about when I think about the kind of abuse that I've experienced as an LGBT kid as a young gay boy as a transgender escort as a young woman all of the different permutations of it the one thing that it had in common for maybe like one instance it was men and male entitlement and people feeling that they could do certain things to me not because I was a queer kid not because I was a woman not because I was a trans person or whatever they were reading me as but because they were men essentially and I do believe that it's not to bash all men because there are lots of perfectly well behaved men but also teaching apparently there are lots of no seriously no there are they are like unicorns I really want to believe that they exist I've met a lot of bad men in my time don't just me but girls as well my friends are teaching the things that the boys in school say to the girls and they don't even know that it's like you can say no actually that's out of order don't summon a picture of your dick or whatever it may be or speak to me in that way even just something as simple as consent through the metaphor of do you want a cup of tea why aren't we taught that in schools clearly we have a problem and it just really surprised people it's Hollywood and we've got it in politics and it's everywhere and we all kind of knew it on some level but we've had that confirmed and validated now that other people have experienced this so we've got a problem we've got to do something about it for me it absolutely comes down to education and just teaching people to behave themselves a bit better so that we can all get on cheers what a lovely crowd you guys aren't saying hello back to me what's up I know it's snowing outside or it's not snowing here boys will be boys hello look at that so you hear that you hear that thing right boys will be boys and locker room talk and you all remember Trump with his you didn't use the word but grabbed them by the and one of the things that struck me when I heard that from a presidential from a presidential candidate was that you know what the problem lies in what has been acceptable practice within our society I mean a lot of what we've heard now on stage is absolutely bang on but in reality there's so much that we've allowed you know kind of like go by without anybody challenging it how many times has someone said something to you that instinctively you don't like but then you laugh it off or you have a smile on your face and you just want to call out there rather than take the opportunity to say you know what forget you don't you speak to me like that sometimes these things take time what the movement I think has done so successfully is to peel away the veil of obscurity the veil, the protection that it has given the oppressors more importantly it's made all these institutions that have protected or hidden the fact it's made them like put them out there stock naked you hear too much now I mean look everything is coming out every you know what's that saying about the truth comes out you can never keep it hidden right I mean you hear all these things like Oxfam and Save the Children all these institutions, parliament all of the things that have been going on for decades even though centuries that we're just hearing about now and why is that because finally somebody gives a rat's ass finally society is demanding accountability we never used to do that before or everything used to be swept under the carpet before when something happened how did we deal with it how did people deal with it it was more like be quiet don't say anything or you buy them off and now that's no longer acceptable I think there's individual responsibility as well as collective responsibility so I'm looking at this from the perspective of an activist right we've all experienced something along the way some of us far more serious than others right but what are you going to do about it that's my question once the solution it starts with you it starts with me it actually starts with us so there are those who have experienced it who felt powerless and probably feel out of shame said nothing or perhaps they did say something and nobody listened to them but what about those of us that witnessed what was happening and did nothing about it we are all or they are all culpable I think it's all well and go to point fingers and go you know because we all recognize the societies we live in what you find here in the UK you find it in the US you will find it in India you will find it in Nigeria you will find it in other countries where well there might be cultural distinctions right but if there is that men entitlement right about the place of a woman and who she is but fortunately for us 100 years on because of the struggles and the fights those before us have done those who have fought so hard for our freedom and liberty at the cost because of all the sacrifices made it is so much more important now that in whichever capacity you are in you recognize that you have a duty of care not just to yourself but also to those around you to call something out when it's wrong to stand up and be a shield of protection for somebody else now we don't all have to be I don't know Martin Luther King Emmeline Pankhurst no you could be Rosa Parks just don't get up start a civil movement that way right the reality is a solution has to start from society it has to start from the people once the people have made a decision about what is acceptable practice then it will be coded in law it is not enough we can't possibly expect as much as we have standard of care for our public officials but you have to remember this public officials are just like you and I they've come from a society where certain things are acceptable so to the extent you want people in public office or you want your managers or people of privilege to behave better it actually starts going pretty much at ground zero and say we all have to behave the same because you will find I recall I was doing this drive from Ghana to Lagos in Nigeria I didn't realize how education gives you a sense of privilege I didn't realize how privileged I was because my attitude and my thinking was very well that's not right but I'm giving it to you I questioned every official well it was an eye-opener for me people it was an eye-opener for me because I realized that the customs official standing between the border standing at a border between two countries was far more powerful than me even with all the education I had it didn't matter how much I screamed about what is right and what is wrong at that moment in time he was the boss I saw women who were carrying their goods, trading goods and they were pretty much begging so that they could cross because either they didn't have a piece of paper I mean this all affects the economy so to speak and this guy was there with some people kneeling down in front of him some people standing up and he was making decisions and people palming him with money and I was disgusted because it was wrong absolutely wrong if that's wrong that's corruption how dare they blah blah blah oh my god then I was about to cross the I mean you see the relevance here I was about to cross my car got stopped and I was asked for echo us papers which the driver had and they kept asking for something else and I was like I need to see the boss I mean this is just not right and the boss comes it's not a problem and the driver shows the echo us papers you know what the boss does he takes the echo us papers and says well you can't go until you give me something oh oh lord I totally I was livid I said I demand oh my god I totally went crazy on him my husband who was with me who is much more in sync with how these things work show line in the name of god please don't just wait let me go and do this I said no we will not move we are not paying anybody any money but here I was looking at my country Nigeria in front of me and I was stuck at the border of Benin Republic think about that for a second I was probably there for a few hours until my husband went listen if these people decide to go crazy and shoot you right now the only thing people will hear are stories but that experience told me something so my husband paid them something it was a different show line on the way back to Ghana I was very oh how can I help you sir oh yes not a problem here's my passport because now I understood the game but the reality is those who have experienced any form of abuse of harassment they go through the same thing where you become conditioned it doesn't matter what you know in that moment in time you feel powerless you feel fearless and if there were not more people imagine there were more people like me at that point in time when I was shouting about this is wrong those people at the very minimum those custom officials would be coward right that's what the meat to movement has done it is said enough is enough I could not care less what this is going to cost me and a lot of activists that are behind this and those who are ready to own their stories and share their experiences it pretty much boils down to you know I've got power and I'm going to use my voice I'm going to use whatever I have to be able to say that this has to change and from the perspective of what's going to be the next step where do we go to from here and how can we ensure that this doesn't die down this doesn't become another flash in the pan oh my god do you remember the era of meat to movement do you remember the era of the times of movement oh yeah yeah I was there did you hear oh that what time is it you know that was really good music we have to take it from there or else what's going to happen is that those the cynics and the skeptics will go well we knew it wasn't going to matter much and that starts actually from our generation I was saying when I came in that all of you make me feel really young just look at you you all look so young it's wonderful and it starts from your generation what are we going to do about it and what we're going to do about it is start by using our feet by using our mouths by using our hands use your right to vote to bring about change thank you thank you so much that was incredible I'm now going to throw it over to you guys if anyone has any questions and what I'm going to do is I'm going to take them two or three at a time then pass it over to the panel and then come back ask us anything we've got no shame no shame why has my mic been taken away from any questions so we've got one over here so I'm so Eleanor you were talking about that legislation has to come about sort of as a following to the Me Too movement or some sort of more material thing it can't be just a public scorn and you said for example more funding for domestic violence refuges and shelters I'm actually doing a project at UNI right now and we're looking at how funding for domestic refuges being completely slashed basically it's being it's losing the ring fence it's not being ring fence anymore it's going to be part of a bigger thing and depending on local authorities on probably men making the decisions they're the ones who will locate the funds if they want or not or give it to older elderly people which fine but we're not going to see an increase in domestic shelters basically so I'm just writing the space and we're before and we're very idealistic we hope it'll get out of not only our grades our teacher is going to see it but hopefully we'll be able to pitch it elsewhere but you were saying Shola we should get out and vote but what do we do in this case I just don't know what do we do what can really happen with domestic shelters I do think we need them but my project that's sort of my question thank you for that question Hi I just wanted to say that sometimes it really helps to look at it through the same problem through a different lens so I would ask for example I would ask myself if the world were a place where I don't know 99% of serial killers were women and one in six children had been abused at the time they become a teenager by a woman and 99% of sexual violence was committed by women how would the world be dealing with that today and I think we need to ask that question to find our answers and then is there one more or okay so how about we'll start those are two quite big questions so we've got what do we do about the closure of domestic shelters and we've got what if the roles were reversed excellent now the closure of the domestic violence centers the first thing you've done is you've identified the problem and in identifying the problem you've also found that you are passionate about the fact that it's going to close right and you don't think it's right because you're like well if that closes then how does that impact all these women and what exactly kind of safe haven are we creating for them what's the alternative right so I would say to you given the point that I made about voting I would say to you that for your local for your MP for instance find out what his views are or her views are on that issue sorry I'm already awake it's a really distressing noise to wake up to I really hate ducks now so sorry so I would say find out from your Member of Parliament from the government while they are going through the process of voting demand race questions just like this in fact do more than race questions I would say it's all well and good identifying the issue that everybody already knows come up with a solution and then challenge them on it the MP that gives you the right answer the most persuasive and most reasonable answer that's the person you should vote for and then you make sure you call them up on it if you vote for them and they get in make sure that MP is well aware that he's got a constituent that is watching him but that is how it starts the only way we can help drive things so from a place of power through your MP and maybe your corporations the corporations you work with or maybe the piece of work that you're going to do for your school perhaps you could write an article that is published somewhere or somewhere that will make it even amplify the issue and demand a call for action for change on it but you can use your skill set to actually continue to drive that conversation and if nobody is listening you keep knocking on the door if they are not listening you start to hammer the door down until they pay attention right? I was just going to say about the lady the question at the back now that is some serious statistics because that's what we have right now with men correct? No one talks about it of everything that's happening and I'm talking mass shootings in high schools everything across the board wars is men why are we not putting it on their table I mean if you think about it just for a second though if we lived in an alternate universe where women were the sexual harassers and the murderers and all of that it would actually mean women were the ones in power and men would be the ones having the men's march and they would be the ones still marching they would be the ones demanding rights for votes right? and we'll probably get back to this somebody just like you would be asking the same question why don't we just start by let's just level set and say the most important thing here is as Paris pointed out before and being a woman of faith love your neighbour as you love yourself treat the next person as you want to be treated a really basic human decency to know what you guys think obviously I think the questions are connected because I've got every sympathy trying to secure funding and I do think it's really important that shelters have the money and obviously women's services are being disproportionately affected by the cuts but it's so frustrating to me because it just feels like firefighting this stuff and really I guess what this movement that we're discussing is about the wider issues of why women need to go to refuges which is what you're all saying is that women in that refuge and really we need to be having a conversation about how do we stop men raping people and hurting women and it's so difficult because I don't want to sound like I'm bashing and I can't say that I'm not all men because I know that there are nice men of course I do and I don't want to sit here and sound like a victim but I have been treated by men my entire life like it's just a fact like that is my experience and we do need to put the focus on to men I agree I really do agree I don't really know what more to say to be honest can men just fucking behave themselves if we flip it though there are a number of women who are more and more getting empowered right for the longest time we've been waiting for men to behave themselves and they've not done so so it's time for us to rise up and take charge be it individually in your home at your workplace on the high street anywhere we need I think there has to be that you know this thing with us women because I'm not all women at this way so I'm not trying to generalize but there's that thing culturally where women almost people say oh by nature are quieter and they're calmer and you know they're more conservative clearly they haven't met me but it's so important that given what we are seeing and what we are hearing that's one of the powerful things about the Me Too movement women and men you're not alone because sometimes as a victim you think you're the only one going through this so you don't want to talk about it or you feel ashamed about it but I think if we flip it if the boys don't want to take it then we need to just we need to take hold of the reins you need to take the hold of the reins of your life and call things out yeah I kind of agree with the sort of like frustration of the second questioner and the responses on the panel because it's just apparently these things get categorized as like women's issues which means that like this is being done to you and now you're expected to fix it which is always fun and I feel like I have things that I would rather be doing like you know maybe I want to lie in at some point in the next decade maybe about the deeper point here about interrogating what masculinity is and how it functions as like a system that legitimates violence and because as Shola pointed out in her beginning remarks there is this kind of naturalization this impulse towards categorizing people who are born with a certain configuration of genitals or chromosomes have this natural teleology towards violence which is just profoundly profoundly untrue and I think profoundly insulting to men because what it says is that yes sure thing you're in charge of the vast majority of the economy and politics and that kind of thing but nonetheless you can't be trusted to engage some kind of critical faculties and some kind of empathy there's this incredible contradiction at the heart of the ideology by which we justify continued male power and I also think we need to think about it genuinely as something which damages boys and men as well because that profound lack of empathy that profound alienation from what is a deeply human impulse towards caring for one another is part of the reason that boys do violence to themselves and to one another as well as to women it's a profoundly traumatic thing being socialized as a man I kind of feel sorry for people when I hear a lot of men genuinely I think expressing confusion in the wake of me too and all that but I thought that was fine I thought that was just flirting I thought that was just what sex was being completely completely unequipped with the ability to think about say flirting is like building empathy rather than a certain dominance thinking about their relationships with people not about competition but about co-operation that makes me sad for them at the times I don't occasionally want to strangle them but it also brings me back to something you said earlier Paris about we know it's wrong we know assault is wrong sure when we call it sexual assault there are very few people who would say sexual assault is fine because that's been thoroughly discredited but that wasn't always the case the idea of sexual assault was quite a new terminology that's allowed women to articulate their experiences and I think because of this profoundly traumatic process of male socialization a lot of men genuinely don't know it's wrong I think a lot of this is about it's hazy I think a lot of it is not wanting to examine your own behaviors because you might find something there that you don't like so that we put all of our problems onto these few bogeymen oh it's just Harvey Weinstein the people in parliament which means you don't have to examine your own actions and the actions of your mates which is pretty convenient but there is an extent to which as you say this is where education comes in there is an extent to which people don't know how to identify and how to root out toxic behaviors in their own lives and that goes for women as well because a lot of women just have to go on a feeling of just kind of a lot of people just call it the ick just the feeling of this un-reconstructed discomfort with a certain situation because we don't talk about this we don't have the language to express actually that feeling of I don't know about this is pointing to a profound system of global violence and that's a problem and we should do something about this so I'm not sure that we do all know what it's wrong, I think we're kind of still trying to figure it out which is what the Me Too movement is is wonderful for this kind of public discussion on the parameters of sex and power on the domestic refuges question like I get your frustration right we've been through Christ, eight, seven eight years of austerity and it wasn't really great before that but I think it's worth dwelling on the fact that we didn't always have domestic refuges right and we didn't always have things like child support which was also bound up with the same issue of like empowering women in the home giving them some economic independence from potentially abusive husbands et cetera these were all gains of a feminist movement who went hang on a second we can just start organising this and they did, this wasn't something that was given by the state this was something that women started doing collectively like off of their own backs like with their own pool resources and energies that got institutionalised and I think there are a lot of good elements to that but I think we kind of forget that these things weren't granted by the state and we don't have to wait for the state to do that, of course we should be absolutely assured like demanding that our politicians fund it more because it's so simple just give us more money like the infrastructure is kind of there already just fund it more but we don't need to wait for Corwin to get in or whatever we can start doing that now we can start building those infrastructures of solidarity because we've already done it once and those people are still alive the people who started those initiatives yeah I think that's really powerful and also the idea that it's not just that men don't know it's also that women actually don't know how to expect good respectful behaviour for men as well but one thing that kind of came out of the discussion that I thought was really interesting and it's something that while obviously I'm like very supportive of the Me Too movement something that has kind of troubled me a little bit and you kind of touched on it in your talk Eleanor was this idea that sometimes we're still fixed in this idea of there has to be a perfect victim and a perfect perpetrator and this idea that you know effect victim if you don't ask for it and the women that don't ask for it are often you know wealthy white women whereas if you are a sex worker for example imagine you know how difficult it is for any woman to be believed it's even more difficult to be believed if you are a sex worker and you've experienced violence at work or outside of work or if you are queer if you are a woman of colour if you are a woman who's undocumented and so is affected by policies like the hostile environment and I feel like that element hasn't really been included as much similarly in terms of the perfect perpetrator you know we have number 45 President of the United States who was elected on a platform of protecting the nation from Mexican rapists but himself is an alleged rapist and has admitted to sexual assault so I'm interested to hear what the panel thinks about kind of how can we move past those kind of perfect like what are the limitations of those kind of parameters and how can we have this movement in a way that doesn't reinforce this see she didn't ask for it at all or you know some men are allowed our abusers and other men can do the same things but they're not abusers well I think that it really cuts to the heart of kind of what I was saying we're not really wanting to talk about this because I think that when we start examining this stuff we have to examine the people in our lives and the people that we love and it's easier isn't it if we can just think that it is just one or two bad eggs like 1% of the population are rapists and pedophiles or whatever and I see this also with men who pay for sex and so on I don't necessarily think that that has to be abusive I think sex work should be legal but it doesn't necessarily mean that I think that the guys that pay for sex are wonderful but you know a lot of my female friends are really shocked by the stories that I would tell them guys would come and see me and they'd be on the phone to their wife saying yeah just come and pick the kids up I'm just seeing a man about a dog or something do you know what I mean and it's really upsetting to me because I like to think that the men in my life aren't complicit in this stuff you know but the fact of the matter is that it is it's people in this room it'll be your dads your uncles, your brothers, your best friend from school that the statistics tell us that's the case and that's really difficult so I think in terms of having the perfect victim yeah I find that really problematic as well and I understand where it comes from but I personally really hate the term survivor and I get it but I find it quite patronising and infantilising because you know I don't actually and I know that people do die from sexual violence but for me personally I don't feel that my life was really in danger at any point so it isn't this kind of really extreme example of I always think of the big bad wolf and the little red riding hood going through the forest in reality it's not, it's normal people it's the guy that you sit next to at work right and it's complicated all of this stuff and I think that's why it's so difficult to talk about and so good that we are talking about it now because it's happening every day in every every situation and it's horrible I don't want to think about I don't want to think that that's what the men in my life are but I don't know how useful that is really I'm a cute child I don't understand how we can expect to have any form of perfection in an imperfect world you can't have a perfect victim when the experience they've been through is imperfect when it is clear that there are no parameters no limitations no protection there is no perfection we live in an imperfect world with imperfect people doing imperfect things that is the bottom line personally for me I think that the world has moved on from certain standards and certain ways of thinking only because the new degeneration we are in now we are kind of you know we are so much cooler about certain things so much more chilled out about certain things right and we also call things out back in the day perhaps there would have been ooh did she have a child out of wedlock that kind of thing and now when you hear a comment like that I don't know maybe from your grandmother probably you go okay grandma you need to chill do you want a cuppa the world has moved on what I will say is this I think it starts from each one of us individually calling out the imperfections calling out being the devil's advocate so if someone comes to you and says oh did you hear Sarah went through this but you know what on campus she was kind of like the national cake everybody had a piece of her she may have been a national cake out of consent but that doesn't give anybody any right to have access to this national cake without her consent but we know how people think even amongst us in this very room you know that if you were aware of a Sarah who didn't mind you know she was a party girl and you hear something happen so are you not the first thing you're going to think about subconsciously even though you may not voice it out is exactly what somebody else is voicing out the only difference the only difference is you might not care about it you might not think to yourself that that should matter because you're going to hear about it so I would say dealing with issues like that we should probably be more conscious about ensuring that look let us take a look at what has happened here let us give protection where protection should be given I don't want to hear personally when you know people may comment but you know whether it's about someone being LGBT and some people have their old fashioned thinking about what's right what's wrong or perhaps people call certain things out because they don't have the same views I think it's really far more important that again like I mentioned earlier treat people like you want to be treated and if you are in a position of power or in a position to make decisions concerning things like this what really comes to ask your opinion set them straight I think it starts with that right yeah I totally agree with what's been said and yeah I guess this language of perfection is kind of perversely interesting because like perfect means if you are a perfect victim that means that you were assaulted in such a way that it troubled my view of the world right which is obviously very limited because like it's likely that your view of the world is shaped by ideologies that are designed to protect male impurity impurity impunity male impurity that was Freudian this is being recorded hi mum and obviously that precisely if you're feeling uncomfortable that like I'm not sure I'm not sure this victim was like quite assaulted in a way that I feel comfortable with good good you should feel uncomfortable because as has been pointed out we're all continually having to unlearn all of this like the ideology rape culture that we've been marinating in since birth and I'm really glad that the whole Trump thing was brought up because I think it's a really sort of neat encapsulation of a lot of the dynamics of how the conversation around sexual violence and particularly combating sexual violence has really been territorialised in a lot of the mainstream media by the right and the far right like the only time in which we contemplate that maybe sexual violence is something that we should do something about is when the Daily Mail it goes on like a fear mongering rampage about like Muslim rape gangs or whatever exactly suddenly everyone cares suddenly like Rod Lidl is really really concerned about protecting women as long as it's something that a stick you can use to bash transwomen it's so clear the profound disingenuity there but this obviously shouldn't just be pointed out that it's it's not a way to protect any women from sexual violence like we should point out that it never was about protecting women what it's about is protecting essentially a property right of the like white men perceived they have over the bodies of all women particularly like white women and so actually I take that back all women and I think this is what is important in unpacking Trump's statements about quote unquote Mexican rapists because it's not actually in conflict with his statements about grabbing women by the pussy that's the same world view it's a world view in which he as a powerful white man has complete impunity to do whatever he likes with women's bodies because they are objects their property he can use and dispose of completely freely but that property relationship is purely one of white men so when Mexicans are seen to be a threat to that property it's not seen as a violation of someone's rights it's seen as the equivalent of theft or breaking a window it's part of the same world picture he's actually not contradicting himself for once and this we need to pay a lot of attention to how we only talk about sexual violence as it's experienced and framed by white women particularly white citizens because as Shola pointed out discussions about morality of sexual behaviour completely collapse before the untrammeled power of border guards and of policemen they don't have to care about individual women's rights what in that power relationship makes them absolutely nothing I think yes while it's important to educate people about that to make sure that whilst we still have those structures they're not totally populated by the worst most venal people possible is something that we should examine to talk about how those power hierarchies in and of themselves foster those mentalities of total impunity I think there is something inherent to the position of the border guard inherent to the position of the cell guard of the prison guard of the policemen that means that people feel like they can behave however on without consequences because you know what they're not idiots they can at the moment that's actually a reality right okay so it's approaching 9 o'clock which unfortunately is the end of our discussion which is really sad but could we have another round of applause for our panellists so get a drink before you leave it's really cold out there so maybe a whiskey or a bourbon or something and see you at the next IRL


Bring all the mushrooms bring all the mushrooms, bring all the clapping out of the room Hey cars, you've been reaction to eating some Corbin I'm You can follow us on Instagram and Twitter for more juicy content I'm talking about my granddaughter Today, I'll be reacting to a uh behind-the-scenes We're going behind the scenes. Yes of uh, DeWani Mastinani. What if I want to go in the scene? Uh, this is a a video um from behind the scenes of that song And you know, we love that song. Yep. It's a phenomenal song. Yep. Um, so this is uh, I believe it was also started by our subbers Thank you subbers. Thank you subbers best of the best Uh, and we like these kind of things if it's always the more the merrier of these man Um, but that was a that was one of the first because that's the I think we reacted That might have been the first song from the film we reacted to I don't remember. I don't remember if it was the order in which they were done. Yeah, but Obviously, it's very impressive to pica dancing. I don't know. I'll beautiful with I mean uh, renveer just sitting there And whenever prionka's happy everybody's happy. She wasn't happy in that scene I know but whenever prionka Everybody's happy. In fact, she was very unhappy in that scene. I don't want to talk about it Anyways, so here we go Hey, did I say start yet? I did not you didn't Okay, here we go Then uh, we saw this before we saw the movie Yeah, I'm pretty sure Divani must have made a suggestion that it would be like an empty song. So it has to be a grand by all means Look at the set And uh How beautiful It's something that we haven't seen in indian films before especially in a period film That must be the choreo forever. Yeah It's a situation Symmetry man Not really but Ali likes the symmetry flavor, but you still there is a sense of oriental feel Multiple days just for the song Where's renveer? He was the essential part of that. That was way way too short Yeah, we've seen some behind the scenes that were about 10 minutes long and we prefer that Yeah, yeah that that could have done with being 10 minutes Yeah, like for each because those films were some of my favorites. Obviously pastrami mustan ananda and padmavad Just because just how grand everything is I literally every movie that I've ever loved could have a separate motion picture That's a documentary about how it was made now and I'd be happy Gibson did that with The Passion of Christ pretty much the supplemental material for The Passion of Christ is another film And it's beautiful because he literally takes you through The setting up of a shot people literally walking from set to the trailers and I just We could sit on set for five hours with nothing to do and be happy. So it would have been nice to see sanjay talk about Yeah With his processes because we haven't we haven't really seen that from him yet Not at all. Maybe he doesn't do that. Maybe he doesn't like to who knows Because obviously this was probably just done by the studio just a behind-the-scenes obviously and he's like get out of my way I'm working. Yeah, you know, obviously when they're working, they don't want to be bothered by behind the scenes Yeah, there's there's some directors that want to close set and they don't want you to see their process They want to they just they're it interferes with their It's definitely one that I would love to because he has such a unique style Yeah, he's like he's like quintin basically obviously not in terms of similar styles But they both have their own definitive style that when you watch you're like This is a sanjay film. Mm-hmm. And a sanjay film is always beautiful. Yep. And symmetry is symmetry Um without and that's a nice thing. I love about him is that his his symmetry and his aesthetic doesn't Minimize story or character. I usually have great character acting and great story Because I think everything we've seen we uh, we saw obviously panvat and bashram and bhajram and bhajram musta nodding black And There's more ram lila ram lila Which was so fun. Um And it's actually very different The fact that he has such a similar style but I'm writing pad maha and bashram and bhajram most similar very similar But because they're they're very similar stories in terms of period and everything a period piece But the others like ram lila is obviously a more fun Contemporized version of a Romeo and Juliet and then black obviously is a completely different whole of the world Thing obviously with the great amatak bhaktan. And I feel like there's more that we've watched. I feel like there is too But it's been so long We've we've taken a big break. There's some people who we first got immersed in at the outset america Sandra lila bansali Vishal, even though we listened to his song recently We were diving rightly so these were the names we were diving into that It's been many many months since we've revisited them. Maybe it's time to Revisit. Well, he does have that. Yeah, who knows if it's coming out the the alia one the alia one Where she's the gangster. Yeah, uh head Which is a great choice and I love it. I can't wait for it. Can't wait. Uh, but I feel like there was One that we watched just recently Uh, what he was the editor on maricom creative weird Righty, we're Thor. There's black. Oh, no, no, no Gersnatch gersnatch. Yes. That was probably the one we liked the least Of well in depth us, but it was still beautiful. Especially shawari his eyes Well, any director.  Yeah, dev dos as well Okay, that was probably the one I like. Yes Yeah, which for me, but it's still had that gorgeous Oh Ness of the set so he has a very specific. I don't think he Does he do has he done a film where it's like Like not gorgeous. Well, we've seen I remember when we were watching Uh, I think it was dev dos. We saw what the um the growth In him and going back to dev dos you could see there was stuff he hadn't yet Made his own in terms of the symmetry and the color He was getting there, but it wasn't at the level. He was at with Padmavad and bhajmalar as the glad more money too as well Well money helps but also there's just this that happens in any body of work of a director You see the evolution of them and this the stuff that becomes their staples and also They're they're command for what they're doing. Uh, and and understanding their particular That's why it's very rare to get a director that come just comes out of the shoot With a very clear Vision and a clear thumbprint on what they're doing because it usually takes several films before you begin to get a hang of what you're doing Yeah, yeah, well if there's more behind the scenes, especially ones that are in depth Yeah, uh, please let us craft about the craft and about the process. Yes. Uh, I don't know if there's a lot Who knows maybe they don't like talking about it. Uh, is there one with a shawl? I'm I can't imagine. Did you do one the shawl wouldn't want to do one with head or the craft Boy, there's so much to learn That'd be a fun one. That'd be a fun one to react to. Anyways, let us know down below


Good evening, and thank you for joining us tonight. In a moment, we will go to our study. You will see that we will not have a bulletin, but we'll go directly to our teaching and then we'll conclude the teaching with a few words of encouragement to you who are viewing our services online. Please take the opportunity of letting us know that you're watching and if you desire to give an offering, you can do so online. If you're watching us via computer, click on the give button in the upper right corner of your screen. If you're watching on your mobile device or iPad, click give under the menu button. If this is your first time giving digitally, follow the instruction under four ways to give to process your gift. You can also mail your checks to 12205 North Pipeline Avenue, Chino, California, 91710. And remember, you can still come in and use the kiosks we have in the foyer that are set up to process gifts, or you can place your gift in an envelope and hand it to one of our receptionists in the foyer. Thank you. And with that, let's get into the teaching. This really relates to dating, if you will, and the way that we're contemporizing it, dating and into the state of marriage. And so we're going to be looking at chapter three, the entire chapter, verses one through eleven today. But I'll be doing some refreshing for you in chapter two, looking at a couple of things there. Then we'll move into chapter three. But what we're going to be looking at, especially as we look at verse six through eleven, is a wedding. And we're going to see that, but we've been dealing with relationships. And we'll look at that with some more, a little more closely as we go through this chapter together. Let's begin reading Song of Solomon chapter three at verse one, I'll read to verse five and we'll get into our studies. Song of Solomon chapter three, beginning at verse one, reading to verse five. This is the Shulamite. By night, on my bed, I sought the one I love. I sought him, but I did not find him. I will rise now, I said, and go about the city. In the streets and in the squares, I will seek the one I love. I sought him, but I did not find him. The watchman who go about the city found me to whom I said, have you seen the one I love? Scarcely had I passed by them when I found the one I love. I held him and would not let him go until I had brought him to the house of my mother and into the into the chamber of her who conceived me. I charge you, O daughters of Jerusalem, by the gazelles or by the does of the field, do not stir up nor awaken love until it pleases. As we've been looking at Song of Solomon, I've been emphasizing up to this chapter relationships. I've mentioned to you that in the Old Testament and biblical times, they really didn't have what we would call a dating kind of system that was going on at that time. What they had were a system of arranged marriages. And so as we've been looking through this, what I've been doing is taking some of the aspects of it and applying it to the 21st century. And so we've been looking at dating and relationships. And I've been sharing with you some of those things. And I was mentioning to you last time that we were together that that in order for you to have a successful long term relationship, there needs to be trust and commitment. And it has to be to one person. When you look at verse 16 in chapter two, for example, you see that the Shulamite says my beloved is mine and I am his. This gives to us insight into the fact that there was a commitment and a trust relationship between the two. And that's the key to long term relationships. We need to maintain what attracted us to that other person in the first place. And then we build on that foundation. There are a lot of building blocks, if you will, that a good and successful relationship will be built on. And one of those building blocks obviously would be friendship. It's an important thing for us to have the person that we're dating to be more than somebody we're simply attracted to that person that we're dating. How to be somebody that we actually see as our friend. You see, Marie and I have been married a long time. We've been together a long time. And she and I would readily say to you that one of the most important elements of our relationship has always been that we're friends. We were friends long before we became lovers. We were friends long before there was anything like that involved in our lives at all. We were friends. We built our relationship on friendship. She actually likes me. Amazing. And I like her.  I like to speak to her. I like to hear from her. I like to tease with her. I like her. Friendship. You can have love for somebody, but not like them. Well, in dating and in marriage, you better like them. You better have that relationship where you're fond of them and where you actually can say, this is my dearest and closest friend that I have in the entire world. This is my friend. You see, when you have a friendship relationship, some of the elements of friendship that come into play in a dating and into a marital relationship are the fact that that friendship is built on support and encouragement for one another. We know that friends will share the same beliefs and values. We know that friends will respect one another. We realize, of course, that all friendships are tested over time, but a true friendship lasts. They're grounded in loyalty. They're grounded in love. They're grounded in honesty. As friends, we challenge one another to continue growing in the Lord Jesus Christ and as friends. We encourage one another to both be good and to do good to other people. As friends, we closely watch over our relationship. We don't let the fire go out. We rekindle it when it's needed. And as friends, we show one another respect and not only that, but we listen to one another to one another closely and we don't hear just the words that are being spoken, but we listen to the feelings behind the words. We grow to understand each other. A lot of fights that you can have with your girlfriend or with your husband or wife, your boyfriend, can relate to semantics, just arguing over words. You know what I'm talking about. You said this. Well, I didn't mean that. Well, it's not what you meant that I heard. And you get into that argument where the person didn't even mean to offend you. They didn't mean to say that, but you're going to just hold them to it. You said this. No, this is exactly what you said. But honey, you know I didn't mean it that way. It doesn't matter how you say you meant it. It's what you said there. Well, when you play that game there, you've got nothing but problems going. You got to go beyond that. You got to go beyond just the expression of words. I believe that words are powerful. They're containers of very powerful images and all of that. And words are so important that God gave to us words to use to preach the gospel. We need to be precise. But there are times that we make an error. There are times when we may not be saying exactly what we mean to say. Everybody knows that. It's true. So you have to listen beyond what has just been said. You have to judge what's being said based on the character of the person who you think is saying it. And then you have to give them the benefit of the doubt. Because they wouldn't intend to hurt you normally. Sometimes they're used as a sword to pierce. There's no doubt about that. But in a friendship relationship, you listen beyond just the words that are being spoken. You listen to the things that are meant by those words and the things that are behind those words. People today, I've heard them say this, you know, I feel you. And I think what they're trying to say is, I understand what you mean. I understand deeper than just the outside. I go to the depth. I understand what you mean. So Marie and I, Marie will say something to me. And she tries to be very precise when she speaks to me. She wanted to tell me exactly what she's feeling. And there are times when I basically just have to say, no honey, I understand exactly what you mean. Well, I was trying to say, you don't have to say it that way. I understand exactly what you're trying to say. Because I've tried to learn her language. I've spent time trying to learn a language. To see a man's language and a woman's language are entirely different languages. We know that. You know, a woman says something, and those are two different things very often. They're in different planets. Let's face it. And a language sometimes is just entirely different. We didn't mean it the way it sounded.   And as a man, you're saying, all right, she gave me permission. That's not what she's saying. She's saying you'd rather be with them over me is what she's saying.  You know, when she said, okay, the rest of who cares? And so we had to learn the language. That's what you do. And in relationship, that's what you're doing, basically. And friends are people who listen beyond the words. And especially is true in relationships. It's especially true when you're listening to a heart and not just a word. You see, in verse 15 of chapter two, we read, catch us the little foxes that spoil the vines. The little foxes. In relationships, it's usually the small things that add up to the big problems. So that's why we deal with problems as quickly as possible. You know, the scripture says, don't let the sun set on your wrath. You know, we try and deal with things as quickly as possible because if you don't deal with the problem, it becomes part of the relationship. It's actually ingrained. And so naturally, we have to deal with the problems because the small things can add up to big problems. And obviously not all differences are necessary to deal with, but some things need to be. And we need to know that there are things that we might have to deal with because it's going to be damaging to our friendship and our relationship.  Well, flattery, that's really not something that you should really be flattered by because jealousy is not a good thing in a relationship. It's just not a good thing at all in a relationship. As a matter of fact, it can be a dangerous thing. There's obviously a godly jealousy, the sense that I have a relationship with this person and this person is mine. I am my beloved and she is mine. I have that relationship. There's that sense of ownership, of course. But then there's that sinful jealousy and damaging it. And sometimes we have that in our relationships and it's just a bad thing to have.  But who is able to stand before jealousy? And so if you have somebody who's jealous, they're also probably very possessive. They probably are also very dominating. You have to ask yourself if you really want to have that.  They may be opinionated or it may be that they're indecisive or you notice that they're sloppy or they're always late or when you go out with friends they're the ones who like to talk over people or if you tell them something they get real quiet when they're upset. You have to ask yourself, is this what I can live with? They may be people who are overly dependent on others or they may be the kind that are slow or they may be a real commitment. You've been dating them seven years and they still don't want to get married. And you have to ask yourself am I willing to go through this? You know little foxes in a relationship are often personality habits that you won't see change. So you have to deal with them.  My mom's very personal. She just loves visiting with people always has as long as I can remember my mom has always been the woman who would just if you're over the house you can stay as long as you want and if you're there in the evening you can stay there overnight. And my mom would be there at the table I can remember all through my life if my mom had friends over it was a Friday or a Saturday or whatever even during the week my mom would be there at the kitchen table and they would be visiting and my mom would put some coffee on and they'd drink coffee and all of that. And he'd walk and he'd say well it's 10 o'clock time for me to go to bed I saw him do this and he would stand up and he'd kind of nod to his friends and say it's nice having you here good night. And he'd walk out and his buddy would be sitting at the table like what and my dad would go and close the door my dad and I thought wow dad well Marie is like my mom I had to learn I had to learn to be hospitable that was just something Marie was and is because I in the past in our early years I did exactly that and I didn't even think about it I looked at my watch I said you know I gotta get up early in the morning I'm not asking you to leave I'm not I'm just going to bed good night love you see you sometime in the future when you can't stay so long I only thought that then I would go to bed and I had to learn and see some things my wife to this day and some of you are married to a woman just like this or a husband just like this Marie will be sitting next to me sometimes and I'm watching a program or something and her little head is falling forward her chin is heading and she's going to sleep and I'll say baby you need to go to bed I'm not sleeping yes you are baby you're asleep she'll do that for an hour I have gotten up and left her there just left her I've left the TV on and I said well it's 10 o'clock and I've gone to bed and she'll come up you didn't wake me up well you weren't asleep I mean didn't you tell me you weren't asleep you're awake there are things that don't change you know that and just be aware of that some things will change some things won't Marie is very relational and I had to learn some things when I dated her you know I remember I grew up in Norwalk and was living in Norwalk and she grew up here in Chino and she was living in Ontario at this time and she had two roommates and they had a little apartment just down the road and I drove to pick her up it was I believe a Saturday night take her on a date she had these two roommates and I came walking into the apartment and the roommates were also part of my Bible studies that we were having during the week on Mondays and I said hi how are you and they said oh hi you know and Marie turns to them and says we're going out would you like to go with us and I look at Marie and oh yeah they said we'd love to let us get ready and I'm kind of just sitting there and they run off into their room and they're getting ready and I said Marie we had just started dating we had just started dating and I said I've got something I have to get out of the car would you like to go with me and she said yeah okay come on we're going to get slaughtered so I took her no I'm cheesy so I brought her in and I said you know Marie I said you know I like your roommates and all of that I'm going to triple date I don't feel like going out with you and your roommates you know I came to take you out and I just got to ask you to do me a favor I got to ask you to please let me know before you invite somebody to go with us because I'm not one who takes well to those kinds of surprises you just need to know that about me because I don't like that that is something I don't like and guess what she was able to deal with it and she understands and me I had to learn her ways as she had to learn my that's communication that's what you learn you learn how to do that and it wasn't that she was right and I was wrong or I was wrong and she was right I think that it's okay if we talk about it we could work it out these are the things that you work out and so those things don't really change and I began to move in that direction and I'm much more relational than I ever have been because I see the value of that and the reality of it being a virtue and not something that's a negative and so you learn from each other but you have to be real with one another that's hearing the emotion behind the words and we need to know that because it's a small fox that will ruin the vines and so it's a small things that we need to know one more thing and then we'll move into chapter 3 in verse 17 remember how she had said until the day breaks and the shadows flee away turn my beloved and be like a gazelle or a young stag upon the mountains of Bethlehem and what she's basically saying in this is she's saying this way she's saying I want to be with you in an intimate fashion her saying I want to be with you in a personal way she's speaking of sexual intimacy once again the Bible does not frown on sexual intimacy there are people who will say you Christians you're so uptight and they use the word puritanic and they'll say oh you're just so uptight when it comes to things related to sexual intimacy and that is not true now some people are shy and there's a propriety in that they don't even know what the word blush means there ought to be times when you do sense that that was an improper thing to be said and yes there are delicate things and notice the way that I speak about intimacy I use words that I think are proper to describe it you don't have to use gutter language to speak about physical things but the bottom line is the Bible doesn't speak about sexual intimacy as being a wrong thing outside of marriage as a matter of fact the Bible is concerned in the fact that God created man and God said that the man and the woman should become one in order that they might procreate and God said in his initial creation it's good and sexual intimacy is good within the confines of a proper relationship Proverbs 5, 18 and 19 says let your fountain be blessed and rejoice with the wife of your youth as a loving deer and a graceful doe let her breasts satisfy you at all times and always be enraptured with her love that's what the Bible says love her and have physical relationships with her there's nothing wrong with that the Journal of Marriage and Family Volume 62 November of 2000 reported that the highest levels of sexual satisfaction were reported by individuals who were in married monogamous relationships while those who were single or living together reported lower levels of sexual satisfaction the Bible says that it is good and it is pleasant within the confines of a marital relationship but even science demonstrates that when people are just living together or just hooking up once in a while it isn't satisfying at all because it's missing the component of love it's missing the component of the spirit of God and it's wrong now this woman here the Shulamite is speaking concerning the fact and it verses 1 through 5 she's basically letting Solomon know that she has a desire for him she wants to be intimate with her and so when you begin to look at verses 1 especially verses 1 through 3 she's revealing a dream that she has had in which she is desiring him to be with her night after night she's dreaming of him she's longing for him and finally after searching she finds him and it says in verse 4 scarcely had I passed by them when I found the one I love I held him and would not let him go until I had brought him to the house of my mother and into the chamber of her who conceived me so when she finally finds him she brings him home hoping that her mom is gonna hasten her wedding day so she is saying I desire you I want you to be with me in a physical way I love you I seek you out I want you when she goes on in verse 5 I charge you oh daughters of Jerusalem by the gazelles or by the doze of the field do not stir up nor awaken love until it pleases once again she's saying sexual love is not to be experienced outside of marriage you see this all through the Bible in 1st Thessalonians chapter 4 verses 3 through 5 people says that Paul says this is the will of God your sanctification is the sexual immorality that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel and sanctification in honor not in passion of lust like the Gentiles who do not know God he says you know God you have a relationship with God and God has said that he wants you to have a vessel that is pure so keep yourself pure from sexual immorality he said you're not like the Gentiles or the pagans who don't have a relationship with God they have treasures and appetites their God is their belly and they basically fulfill the desires of their own heart without any concern for other people or whether or not it honors God so this is the will of God he says concerning you your sanctification in Hebrews in chapter 13 verse 4 marriage is honorable among all and the bed undefiled but fornicators and adulterers God will judge so when you have a relationship it begins with a simple date and it moves on until the point where you begin to feel more of a desire for them and passion will grow in your relationship but passion is always to be tempered by restraint Galatians 523 when it's speaking concerning what is called the fruit of the spirit says the fruit of the spirit is self-control and that's part of just walking in the spirit is exercising self-control that drives you to sin the Holy Spirit restrains you from it and so the Bible makes it very clear that it's proper to have relationships but you don't awaken nor stir up love until it pleases instead of having sex falling in love then getting engaged and marrying you need to fall in love get engaged get married get engaged in physical intimacy that's the proper way people today will just hook up for the night and then maybe see them again and then develop a relationship maybe even live with them and they've got it all backwards what you do is you get to know them you see the qualities of them you begin to care about them you have an engagement and I encourage people to have fairly long in sense comparison to the engagement when people get engaged very often they think they're married they even act as if they're married so a shorter engagement and a nice developed dating relationship works real well but then you get married then your wedding night is actually an offering to the Lord is actually something that is holy and blessed by him now if you have somebody that you're with and you're dating right now and they're pressuring you to have sexual intimacy any form of it is going off that relationship if there's somebody telling you well sex isn't going to change you doesn't make you any different anybody who tells you that is lying to you or they're shallow you will change once you've had sexual intimacy you change forever and you see yourself differently and others will see you differently too you need to be aware of that it's a great price to pay if you've entered into sexual intimacy as an unmarried individual one of the things I love about the Lord is he makes all things new and you ask God forgiveness and you repent from that and God can change your life and you can become an entirely different person and I'd encourage you to that I was reading something that I found very interesting listen to this 80% of people living together 80% of people living together eventually separate 60% of those who have been married in a civil ceremony 60% end up divorcing 40% of those getting married in a church eventually divorce 40% but those who read their Bibles together daily divorce at the rate of one out of every 1,050 think about that if you're dating you need to be reading you need to be in the word together you need to have devotions together it needs to be built on Jesus Christ and your mutual faith in Him if you're going to walk as a Christian if you want to be in the world live as a world but if you want to be a Christian make it a spiritual relationship one out of every 1,050 end up in divorce that's minuscule because the word of the Lord is kept them together they're centered on something more than whether they like the same foods, music and places to go it's deeper than that and so keep that in mind and some of you I know are thinking about that that's your opinion that's a fact that's how it works what has made my marriage a good marriage Jesus Christ in doing these things that I'm sharing with you that's what's made it what it is it's one another in Christ it's walking as friends it's having respect for one another being loyal to one another caring about one another it's those kinds of things that I'm trying to share with you that has made my marriage a solid marriage and that's really something I want for all of us the heart of any good relationship that leads to marriage is spiritual and intimacy flows out of that bond and it's the cement that keeps you together that's why we have our weddings that are centered on Jesus and that's why our vows are made to him I had somebody say that they didn't like our weddings because they're too spiritual the two religious is what they said some weddings are too religious you know they miss the whole point the whole point is that it's supposed to be honoring Jesus Christ you know when you read Ecclesiastes 4 verse 12 the writer says though one may be overpowered by another two can withstand him and a three-fold chord is not quickly broken so you have the bride, the groom and Jesus Christ and that keeps you solid and strong now as this is all taking place verse 6 who is this coming out of the wilderness like pillars of smoke perfumed with myrrh and frankincense with all the merchants fragrant powders behold it is Solomon's couch with 60 valiant men around it of the valiant of Israel they all hold swords being expert in war every man has his sword on his thigh because of fear in the night of the wood of Lebanon Solomon the king made himself a palanquin he made its pillars of silver its support of gold its seat of purple they are paved with love by the daughters of Jerusalem go forth oh daughters of Zion and see king Solomon with the crown with which his mother crowned him on the day of his espousals the day of the gladness of his heart this is the view of a wedding the wedding day and she sees him as he's approaching her and that's why she says who is this coming out of the wilderness like pillars of smoke perfumed with myrrh the formation of Israel was led through the wilderness by a pillar of fire and smoke so this is revealing that God is the one who brought Solomon to her and this is the moment that she was born for when God is bringing her husband to her that's how it should be by the way when you finally marry if you're standing up here you shouldn't be looking for the exit how am I going to get out of here this is just a legal ceremony it's not an excuse for a party later on and it's not entered into with a let's see if it works kind of mentality it should be a monumental occasion that is filled with joy and celebration and here comes Solomon approaching her and he's perfumed it's a picture of celebration everything pleasant because it's all centered on God and Solomon has prepared himself for his bride and it's a deeply spiritual moment you see smoke and myrrh you see frankincense with worship and sacrifice marriage is deeply spiritual God leads it's including sacrifice and worship at its core when I'm up here doing a wedding I normally will tell the young groom I normally call him the victim but when I speak to the groom I'll say listen I'll be up here I usually have a chain around him so he can't get away I'll be up here the groom and all and his ushers come out the pastor will come and stand up here and the men will be here normally and then the young bridesmaids will come walking forward and the music is playing and they assemble up here and there'll be a special song normally and it's just real sweet then when that special song concludes and the last bride maid has taken her place up here on the platform there's silence for just a moment and that silence brings anticipation because people know some things about to happen that's good the lights may be a little dimmer at that moment and then the music starts and the back door is there there's two doors in the back swing open and then there's the bride and she's with her dad or the one who's bringing her down and I've told the grooms many times I've said listen when you see her standing at that door that will become in your heart one of the most powerful images that you carry for the rest of your married life on my iPhone I have the picture of my wife Marie when she came out the door that's what I carry every time I open up my iPhone I see my bride every time I look at her because I love that picture of her and that memory I have carried all through these years that I've been with that woman because that's what I encourage men to this is what's happening with a Shulamite she looks and here comes Solomon and as Solomon is coming to her it's a picture of worship she's saying God has brought this man to me and marriage includes it includes sacrifice it includes worship it includes all of these things and I want you to notice something here because in verses 7 and 8 it speaks of Solomon's couch it's Solomon's couch with 60 valiant men around it valiant the valiant of Israel Solomon has 60 valiant men as his groomsmen and these are men who are warriors they're securing her from disturbance it's a picture of a man who keeps his bride from all harm he's making it clear that her safety is now in his hands and he will protect her this husband becomes the protector and that's what he's there to do and she feels secure with him here's something for you those women and men those of us who are married in this room I would ask the wives in this room as well as appeal to us as the husbands I would ask the wife to see her husband as a hero because that's what she's saying she's looking and seeing him and the picture here is just an amazing picture but she sees this man and you got a picture this is a man amongst 60 warriors but amongst the 60 warriors who are armed the only person she really sees is Solomon and he's the leader of these valiant men she sees him as a hero husbands become the hero to your wife become the hero to your wife I realize that that sounds old fashioned doesn't it but I made up my mind that that's what I was going to be in the life of my wife my wife is going to have she doesn't have to look to other men to be her hero she should be living with them she should be living with her hero and that's what I am to her and I say that I know that it can sound arrogant I realize that I take a chance in even saying this because there are some who misunderstand what I'm saying but I can tell you the truth and that is the truth my wife would tell you that if you ask my wife who's the greatest man in your life who's the greatest man you've ever known my wife isn't going to mention some old boyfriend she's not going to mention some other guy she's not going to mention somebody on TV she's going to say my name because I have been working to be her hero for many years and that's what I want to be as her protector I want her to see me then that way not as some uncouth, rude, mean, abusive guy I know I want her to see me as somebody like Solomon is seen this is one who's coming out of the wilderness perfumed with mer frankincense and fragrant powders she sees him as a valiant man who is prepared for her and that's what husbands that's what you ought to be to your wife if somebody were to take your wife aside and say who's the greatest man in your life she ought to without a doubt without a question without a hesitation the greatest man in my life it's my husband she ought to say that my husband and that's what I want to be for mine and that's what Solomon is for the Shulamite and she sees and she says God brought this man to me and look at what God brought to me you know there are tears in weddings and sometimes the tears in weddings are because mom and dad are sad at what mama but their baby is getting married to that's the truth sometimes mama and daddy are crying because the daughter made a bad decision and there's nothing they could do about it because I'm going to be with him you just don't know him and all of that arrogance that we have as youth comes out you make a choice that is bad or the boy comes home with a young lady who really doesn't suit him in terms of what that boy is really like the little girl doesn't fit into his life but he is bent on marrying her and that's just the way it's going to be and you're going to like her no matter what it doesn't work that way you see in the case of Solomon and I'll show you this here when it says in verses 9 and 10 it speaks of the wood of Lebanon it's called a palanquin that's a portable enclosed chair it's like a small carriage that would carry both the man and the woman and what he's doing is he's carrying for her in every way he's treating her as if she has value even though she's very poor and he's offering her material comfort and security from financial fears again briefly my wife did not marry me because she thought I would be rich some day I was a college student she just signed on and trusted me to provide for her the best that I could the best that I can one thing my wife did know she married a man who would do everything he could to take care of her and that was the kind of man Solomon was something that marriages end up good all by themselves without any effort that's not true at all you have to work at it but as all of this is taking place here when it says go forth in verse 11 O daughters of Zion seek King Solomon with the crown with which his mother crowned him the crown of the angels the day of the gladness of his heart that tells us something because during that time the groom would wear a crown well the crown would be a picture of independence because he's establishing his own family and he's establishing his own home but the mother crowned him and that would be Bathsheba by the way the mother crowned him revealing her approval of his marriage but not only revealing the approval of his marriage that she would love his wife as if it was her own daughter she was approving the daughter when my Joseph married Karina you know I have conversations I'm a talkative person and I have conversations with sons-in-law and my daughters and daughters and daughter-in-law and I told my Karina I'm not going to call you my daughter-in-law I don't like that phrase personally I told Karina you're my daughter and I'll treat you as my daughter to be honest with you I'll spoil you like I spoiled my daughters because I love you like you're my own blood and that's the truth I love my daughter-in-law like she's my home and that's what mama's showing here by putting a crown on Solomon's head she's saying I approve and I will love your wife my wife Marie loves my sons and daughter-in-law like they're her own that's the way it ought to be and when the young woman comes home with the young man brings them to dad and mom and we meet them over time there should be an affection that grows between that son to be son-in-law that is real reservation if there's a sense this isn't right this isn't going to work then you're going to have a lot of pain in your relationship not in this case the whole family you see is involved in marriage daddy may give away the bride mama may light a candle and quietly weep but it's all good when it's in the Lord but when the husband or wife knows that the family doesn't support the marriage it's painful and resentment you can have bitterness it can arise and it makes everybody uncomfortable that has to be worked out before there's a wedding you see for Solomon his wedding day was a day of joy and beauty it was a day of holiness before the Lord everything was going well with them before man and God it's the day of his wedding and it's the gladness of his heart and that's how weddings ought to be and by the way this is a picture of when our bridegroom Jesus comes prepared for us and we see him as the hero in our lives because when all is said and done as Paul said in Ephesians 5 marriage is really a picture of Jesus and his bride the church and as you see this picture here well one of these days our hero is going to come for us and we're going to see him the way he is but until that time comes we need to live out the weddings and marriages that God gives to us here on earth to bring glory to him and Father we ask that that might be so amongst all of us we ask that we might take these basic things and live them out Lord even as our eyes are closed and our heads are bowed perhaps there's some in this room right now the Lord is speaking to you need to get right with God and you need prayer I want to pray for you you may be having a struggle because I want to pray for you and if you would like prayer would you raise your hand right now and let me pray for you right where you're at just raise your hand Father you see these hands and you know the reason why they're being raised to you right now I simply ask that you would reach down and touch these lives and as you're touching these lives that Lord whatever concern they may be lifting to you whatever desire of their heart that they're asking you to meet that you would meet them there let it be done to them according to their faith as they trust in you I pray that you will meet them there work in them and show yourself strong reveal yourself Lord and do so to your own glory and to their blessing and we thank you Lord and we thank you you can put your hands down and Jesus would you keep moving in all of us and may we take the things we're learning and learn to apply them in your name we pray Amen. Thank you Lord and God be with you and we look forward to having you with us once again