You can now follow me on all my social media platforms to find out who my latest guest will be and don't forget to click the subscribe button and the notifications button so you're notified for when my next podcast goes live. I've got a lot of stuff going on.  I feel like I've been robbed and fucked over by Eddie Hearn, the promoter. I'm questioning his morals. What has he done? How has he had this involvement? And he's a very good fighter, James, a very, very good fighter. You know, you're just saying that you would never, I would never admit, you know, while we're competing because it was always just, it would seem better for me to put him down.  If it wasn't boxing, I'd be out shooting and drinking and killing and this and that. And I don't know if that would have been me if I was in boxing. When you're an underdog in these situations, I can't help myself but feel that I want to convince the guy in front of me that you got it all wrong, man. You got it all wrong. The fight takes a bit of a, you know, a bit of a slight dip of intensity but I'm still winning the fight. And then obviously, eighth round, in my opinion, like referee jumps in and stops it for a bizarre reason. Yeah, they rush him off to hospital. He has a bleed on the brain. I think they put him in an induced coma. Probably operate on him. I go and visit him with Nissa Sowland, say on the Wednesday, maybe. He's in Padden Hospital in London. Yeah, I mean, he was like a shell of the man that he was Saturday. It was, for me, crazy. I couldn't believe that someone could deteriorate that much over four days. Ben Morine and today's guest, we've got World Champion boxer, George Groves. How are you, George? Good, thank you, James. Very good. Very, very good. Looking well, brother. Thanks, yeah, no, I'm okay. I'm okay. I, uh, yeah, nice. It was good. It was good. Great Korea, British title, Commonwealth, European as well. Is that correct? Yeah. And World title, fourth time. Sorry for mentioning that. Not really, for, yeah. You got there. Sold out when, but the biggest, one of the, well, not the biggest. Now I think few it is, but the biggest fight in British history, like 80,000 people, unbelievable. And, uh, great Korea. I thought maybe it ended a wee bit too soon, but obviously you're the decision maker in your life, do you know what I mean? But first and foremost, how are you? I'm really good. Thank you. Thank you. Really, really good. Um, happy enjoying life. You know, uh, yeah. And, you know, for a, for a period of boxing career, I wasn't sure that was going to be the case, but yeah, win a, win a world title with a fourth attempt. Um, and then yeah, the idea was to, to finish sort of all my own terms. Maybe with a little bit left in the tank, could have gone again a couple of times, but felt now this is good. This feels right. Um, things have changed in my life. I had two kids at this point and wanted to be more present in their lives. They were brand new to under two before my, uh, for my last fight. So yeah, you know, um, I was ready to, uh, to move away from boxing. And now I'm lucky enough, I get to dip my toe in to boxing. Every now and again, I get to cover the fights, you know, if it be on TV or radio, try and get down a boxing gym when I can to get that boxing, boxing fix. Um, that is just more than enough for me, James. More than enough for me. I always go back to the start of my guests where you grew up and how it all began. Yeah. So, um, a kid and there was no boxing in my family. Um, I don't know, really just sort of saw the Rocky movie as everyone else did. Uh, my dad was happy to push me into anything that I sort of showed a willingness for. Um, at seven, I was probably a bit too young to box, or at least that's what we were told. So I started kickboxing. It was everyone else does the cliche thing. Uh, I was good at it, enjoyed it. At the age of 10, joined the local boxing club, which was Dell youth, uh, ABC and did both boxing and kickboxing for a few years. And then from our 13 onwards was just all in for my boxing. What made you choose boxing instead of the Keck boxing? Uh, I think I think I was probably aware that there was a future in boxing at that age, you know, rather than kickboxing where there just wasn't a future. I mean, this was early to mid nineties. Um, when I was there, you know, there was guys that were fighting on the pro circuit, but they all had jobs to go with it. It wasn't like, like now where I don't know, maybe if you've got a mixed martial arts background, you can go into, you know, the UFC or MMA or stuff like that. But, um, then it was just boxing, boxing, what was on telly, what everyone knew about, what was exciting. And, um, yeah, just always wanted to boxing, boxing had that also that it just felt a little bit more structured.  For me, then, then kickboxing, which was just matching two guys are attaching about to it and sort of where you go. Who was your idols? Um, I never watched a lot of pro boxing as a kid. Um, but obviously the era was like Nazim Hamid. Um, there was, uh, you know, Eubank and Ben, um, Lennox Lewis, David, the guys that we were watching, um, and then as I got a bit older, um, it was Ricky Hatton and Joe Calzagli. Really, you know, they were the ones that had the forefront of boxing when I was sort of early teens, mid teens. Um, you know, getting on the school bus and talking about the Ricky Hatton fight the night before. So yeah, and this might, this was, you know, pre-infighting Costa Zoo and stuff like that. So they're the guys that you're looking up to, you want to emulate and, yeah, be in the future. What were you like at school? I was good. I mean, I was quite timid to be honest in the, um, in the real early ages as a kid. I was quite shy, um, not really, you know, didn't get stuck in or amongst it. Um, sort of, I think I found my feet come, you know, 13 years on, on wood. So like year eight, I think is at school. Um, yeah, sort of then I'll probably come a bit obnoxious and a bit, a bit brash and a bit full of myself. Um, school, you know, academically I was okay, but it was always just enough to get by. And, um, it was always boxing, you know, I always just felt like I had the excuse of boxing. I wouldn't be doing homework or coursework or revision or this or that. And it even got to the point where I think, yeah, you do your GCSEs in year 11 and I missed half the exams because I was boxing in Texas or I was boxing in Dublin or something. And it was great because I was like, oh, I don't need to worry about doing this work because I'm not going to be there for the exam anyway. Um, but yeah, it's cool. I enjoyed school. I quite, I quite like school. Um, I liked the friendships, you know, I like, I like, like there's loads of people.  So I quite enjoyed that. And I maybe because I was so dedicated to my boxing that I had no downtime, you know, after score at the weekend, like that was when I sort of went into more of a focused, uh, state of mind. Uh, maybe I missed about a score. It'll be too much because I felt like that.    Like, did you believe that early age or was it just something you messed around with until you started realizing that you were decent at boxing? Yeah, no, I mean, it was always boxing, always going to be boxing. I believed in myself from, from the get go. I thought I was going to be the greatest of all time. You know, um, there was no, no ceiling to sort of my ambition. Um, and that's, and I think my parents were, were fine with that. They, you know, there wasn't pushy academically and they were a little bit pushy at the start in terms of your boxing. But once they knew, you know, that was what I wanted to be. They even left me to my own devices in that respect as well. So, you know, I never missed the gym. I was just that, that type of guide, that type of kid training. I, I never, ever missed the session. I was always the first one in, last one out. You know, when you start boxing for England at 15, 16, I'd be at every squad, you know, wherever it'd be, Crystal Palace for the weekend, or if it was up in South Shields or Manchester, wherever I, you know, I made sure I moved heaven and earth to be there. Um, just all in for boxing. So new, I could make a career out of it, providing, you know, I want to, and nothing really crept into your mind in terms of, I'm good enough. I'm going to make it. Am I going to get injured? There's nothing, none of that. So it was always just, you know, boxing through and through. How many amateur fights did you have? I had 75 amateur fights in the end. Um, but I was quite a big kid. So I never had a lot of like comp, what are they called? Like club shows, you know. So out of those 75, um, 73 of them, Riva, internationals or championships. So I'd go in, um, to the school boys, as I said, and it would be to go through the, the years, junior ABAs, senior ABAs. And then if not, I'd be boxing for England. So, um, yeah, it was great. I mean, I got to travel the world. I went to places that I've wise would have probably never been to. I went to countries that, you know, before people went to them countries, you know, I was in Baku in Azerbaijan in 2004. You know, I'll be in Bosnia. Um, in, I remember we were in Bosnia in 2005. Like, uh, Macedonia, these countries that, you know, uh, it's great for me now. It's the conversation piece. So you meet parents in the, in the queue, and I'm dropping, I'm at the school drop off. And then there might be an international kid who's come over and his parents from Azerbaijan and I say, yeah, I've been there. And, uh, it goes a long way. They like it. I mean, I'd never have much of a story to tell. I'm like, yeah, we got there. It was cool. We stayed in our room. We barked. We went home. But, uh, I've been there. Any decent fighters you come up against in your amateur career? Yeah, no one, no one, I don't think that I've boxed, but, um, some, some name drops that we, you know, we're in and amongst my sort of, um, age group. Uh, we went to, uh, Morocco one year for the world championships and, uh, Vasile Lomachenko was there, won a gold. Uh, he was just, you know, he boxed, uh, he was an incredible boxer. Um, Ukrainian, obviously, um, boxed, uh, the prelims, the quarters and semis, orthodox, and then boxed the final southpaw. And beat the cube and stopped the Cuban on this, like back then you'd have a 20 point rule. So if you've got 20 points ahead that just stopped, stopped about, um, Tyson Fury was on that trip. Um, Ashley Sexton, Jamie Cox, a few others. It was, it was a good trip. I think I think all them guys were there. It was a good trip. How was back Tyson as a kid? Yeah. Well, he sort of, he came, I mean, he came a little bit later than me. So, um, I don't know if he started boxing later, but there was like, I remember one of the officials. So you'd, you'd have an English judge that would come with you and English, I don't know what they, they scored. And it was like, he would take care of the team, like a team manager and then a couple of coaches. And one of these referees of official was from Manchester. And he was talking about this guy, Tyson. And I thought he was a black guy. Cause he's saying he's, he's huge. He's ripped his muscles there. And then when he came through the door, I was like, oh, he's, he's very big, but he's not at all what I thought he was going to be. Um, and he was, um, nice guy. Like, I mean, we still, we still as a nice guy, but like nowhere near what he is now. Like, um, he was a little bit shy and timid. I'd say if I, if I'm honest where he was there, I'm sure he would agree. Um, you know, he would do his, do his training. And he was just for 70, he was about the same size as now when he was 17. So he'd come out and he'd be fighting these guys that are just down here. Um, he got a feeling he won a bronze medal at that. So a bronze medal at the world championships. So under 19, uh, is a great achievement. So then I don't know, he was on squad a bit together. And then he, uh, yeah, we actually both turned pro in and around the same time. We both didn't really fancy our chances for 2012 fancied. Oh, why is that? Well, you know, you're, you're rolling the dice on, um, Do you not fancy the London Olympics? Not really. No. Uh, so my, my friends on squad were at the time where Luke Campbell and, and the ago, who both went on to meddle with the Olympics. Obviously Luke went on to win it. Um, but we look Luke's a great guy. Uh, I'll pass cross again in the, in the pros in that he ended up joining, um, the McGuigan stable when I was, I was training there. So I always stayed in touch with, with, with Luke and Anthony. Um, Anthony, a bit more unlucky. Um, I had some injuries that he accumulated. And I think they're most likely through the wear and tear of the amateur boxing game where you're out every month boxing the best guys in the world. They train you into the ground at times. And, you know, it's, it's a numbers game for them. You know, it's great. It's great. We're in the middle, but you are just like a number for the funding. If you've got the gold medal, great. We go again, but they don't care who wins that gold medal as long as someone wins a gold medal. Um, and I just had dreams and ambitions and aspirations to be a world champion pro. That's what I wanted to be. Um, I wanted to go to Beijing, 2008. Um, I dig out, got picked and dig out qualified and James got one of gold medals. So the joke that I'd say as well, I couldn't exactly say you sent the wrong guy, you know. And it would have been lovely to have gone and competed representing my country and hopefully have won something. But, um, for me, which wasn't worth risking four years of my career to try and go and emulate what the gal had done when really in four years time, I could be fighting for a world title. So is that what kind of yours beef started the way back 2008 with that? Was that nothing towards him against him going instead of you? No, it started a bit before then. So we boxed as amateurs. We're both from the same amateur club, um, bizarrely. Uh, both from, from the dairy youth in West London. Um, the gal was a little bit older than me. So he had gone in the senior ABAs twice and won it twice, which was fantastic feat, you know, from 18 and then 19, went to the Commonwealth Games and won a bronze medal. Um, but then I'm, I'm 18 now. I want to go in the senior ABAs. We're the same weight and you have to fight. And then, um, and I beat him. So, uh, that's, I'd say that's where rather, we might have started a little bit before then, but then it definitely will. We, we, we weren't friends since we haven't really spoken. So what age did you turn pro 20? So it's very young. It's a young age.  Did you realize, okay, this is what I want. Was it a big step up from amateur than it was pro? Yeah. I think, well, so I turned professional with, um, the haymaker sort of promotional banner, which Adam Booth was Adam Booth. There was a trainer manager promoter. He wore everything out. Yeah. He was there. And then, um, um, I wanted to train with Adam. Um, I sort of, I'd seen Adam in the gym a little bit. I've done a couple of sessions with him before turning pro. Um, try to, you know, you go, you go around the gyms and talk to the promoters or the managers or the trainers who represent sort of certain stables. And, uh, but I liked them guys. I just, you know, I felt like I was already an underdog because I was up against James DeGauer, who was the Olympic champion. So I had to carve out my own route. Um, not get left behind. And at the time David Hay was doing the exact same thing. You know, he was sort of anti Warren, Warren was the big promoter at the time. He had Enzo Macronelli. Um, he had the deal with, with sky and you know, he was, he was, he had car. And he had, he had been the number one guy for a long time. So I thought I can't sign with Warren because I'll be behind DeGail. Um, and then, you know, but even, even if he was interested, I think I still would have gone with, with, with Haymaker because, um, I just really, really liked, um, the way they work, you know, this day set up. And, um, we went into, uh, I think I'll probably turn professional, you know, the early half of 2008. Didn't have a debut until November 2008. So I'd been in the gym with them for four, five, maybe even six months. Been out to Cyprus with them. That's what they were living at the time. And, uh, it was the best time for me. It was just amazing.  You're staying on a lovely villa, you know, um, the sun's out. You're in a great gym. You're next to a world champion.  So, um, life was good. And there and then you're like, wow, this is, this is a dream. That was that. What was it like, your first full faith? Were you nervous? No, not really. So I was, it was at the O2. It was on a Hey, Monty Barrett undercard. I got the tube there, which, yeah, the glamour of it. And I don't know what was wrong with the tubes that day, but I almost didn't make it. Like, so, um, I don't know. Maybe I was a bit too lax, left it a bit too, and I went there on my own. Like there's, I'm quite content in my own company.  Um, and yeah, Adam, my trainer was stressing out apparently saying, if you're in here in 15 minutes, he goes on last.  It's been nothing. But I made it there on time. Box had a chap called Kareel Pashonko. What's he from? Lithuanian guy, lovely guy. I think he was like two and I were at the time or he may not even had a winning record. Um, tough guy. I wanted to get rid of him as you do. I didn't even think I want to be unbeaten with, with a hundred percent KO record, but we didn't, we went in the four, six rounds. I couldn't get rid of him. Um, load up on my shots a bit too much. And um, maybe, maybe, or maybe nerves and excitement and just, just being overzealous. But it was, I think it was a good, a good opening for me. You know, like the cliche things that I want rounds, but what I learned from it was just that like, it's not always about effort. You know, you have to vary, vary the attacks, vary the power, take your time, set stuff up. Um, and then it'll come, you know, rather than just plowing on. And sometimes you see young pros, they might be in the temp fight and they've still got that mentality of there's just effort, effort, effort. Now you can take your time. You can relax, pick your shots, set it up and wait for it.  I think you were 19 or no, weren't you? You're flying and making waves. When, was it the European title you won first? Was it not before the British? I won the Commonwealth. Commonwealth in my ninth fight. So we tried to, yeah, just tried to crack on. Chief support for, for a haymaker, David Hay, uh, pay-per-view event, which was, uh, he boxed John Ruiz, I think I mean, just won the belt. It just beaten Valoev, you know, David versus Goliath, uh, in Nuremberg and I'd box on the undercard there. That was a weird fate there.  Yeah, seven foot two, which I think he was a genuine seven foot two giant. Like just one of the biggest people I've ever met. Yeah. Apparently he's quite sweet, a lovely guy. He didn't say much fight week, and he speaks not very good English, mainly Russian, but I think he's quite a soft guy, likes his poetry, likes his, you know, just happy to be there. Yeah. But I mean, they rocked the world and, you know, it was, that was a fantastic time for me still because I'm, I'm in the machine. Like it's not me, but I'm, I'm a standby watching, trying to absorb, learn, um, see what, you know, what is it? What, what does it take to be at the top end of, of boxing? Because at this point, um, even like the UK boxing market is, is, is coming into its own. Um, you know, there's a real emphasis from sky on selling paper views on this being, you know, a place where it's not just the stakes where you can go and earn life-changing money. Maybe now in the UK, it's going to overtake Germany and other countries like that. So, um, to see David Hay at work in terms of drumming up, um, interest in a fight was, was amazing. To see the pressure that was under him, um, in regards to the, the obligations in, in selling it, um, having a camera in front of him all the time and the little tricks where, you know, you could, um, create interest.  That's not, that's not quite my style, but I would have gone about that in a slightly different way. But I get, I get the, the end result. Um, and then from there, yeah, you're just excited by, by his progression and I want to push on. So, um, you know, nine fights in fighting for championship level. I'm already doing full camps, 12, 12 rounds, um, beat a guy called Charles Adama who doesn't matter, you know, for four year old, um, can't, can't hang on maybe or something. I don't know where he's from. Somewhere in the Commonwealth, we got him over, beat him, stopped him, um, and we're up to, we're up to championship level. And, and I gotta admit, I was um, competing with James out at the time, like, not, not directly, but indirectly, you know, I wanted to get to championship level before him, um, because I felt like, you know, he's gonna, the opportunities are gonna go his way if I don't grab them before him because he's got the name, because he's got the gold medal behind him, because he's got Frank Warren and Sky and everyone else behind him. You know, I signed with David Hay who was fighting on Satanta, which was a brand new, um, channel. No one was subscribing to it and they eventually have probably folded within a year of us being there. So, it's almost in No Man's Land there where I've got a box, you know, on other people's shows, try and get a little bit of exposure. I'm not getting the TV slots, because I haven't got an Olympic medal. Uh, I had to get to championship level to, you know, just get the TV airtime. Did the girl keep you focused? I think, I think, yeah, I think I would have been anyway, but definitely he was someone for me to focus on. Um, he was a rival, you know, uh, I love a good rival, you know, and he's a very good fighter, James, a very, very good fighter. Um, yeah, you're saying that you would never I would never admit, you know, while we're, while we're competing, uh, because it was always just, it always seemed better for me to put him down. Um, but of course, a very, very good fighter, a talented fighter. We've done hundreds and hundreds, if not thousands, aspiring Browns together through the course of our amateur careers. Um, so we knew each other as well as could possibly know each other. It's just whether, and we'd even boxed with boxers and amateur, and our paths, it felt were destined to cross. Um, Did you always believe that, right at the start, that something big was going to happen with that? I think so. I think so.  So, um, Is bizarre that you'd be on friends then? Yeah. Yeah.  I think before it became competition, I'd say we were more dynamical with each other. Like we would, we would, you know, get on, you'd go on trips together, we went to Vegas one year together and stuff like that. Uh, but we never like shared a room or really got that, that, that close. But there was times where we'd have a squad training in Crystal Palace and jump, jump a lift with him in the car with the cruise over there. And, um, so there was times where I suppose we would get on. But yeah, and I quite like it that by the time we became rivals, um, we could just be at each other's throats, you know. We could, we could get what, what it's all about. It's what it's all about. This is, um, it feels like life and death at time and, and it is, you know, it's amazing. Who wants it most? You know, it's vital to fittest. Uh, so, I'm not like friends. How did you, how did you feel after one in the commonwealth? Were you buzzing or were you thinking it's not enough? Yeah, I mean, both really, like chuffed and happy with the performance. Um, I remember Adam Boothrey and really happy with the performance. And at that stage in my career, I think, um, I was, um, really respected, uh, receptive to his, um, you know, his comments and, uh, his praise, you know, I wanted to impress him. Um, I wanted to, you know, to I wanted his reassurance. I felt like he, he, he was, uh, a guy who knew about pro boxing. So if he says this is good, then, then I'll go with it. Um, and I felt like I'd got the jump on, on DeGal. Like, so at this point, the British title was probably being contested by Paul Smith and, um, I think he boxed Tony Dodson and there was like, it was around, there was a Liverpool click for a while. There was Tony Quigley and Dodson and a few others. So I was like, I want to get to that British title before DeGal gets there. Uh, I didn't because, um, Paul Smith was signed to Warren and you know, they just met. That was an easy fight for them to make. So DeGal got there first. But I feel like the Commonwealth was very important just in terms of, um, putting my, you know, my name out there, uh, and setting up what will soon become, you know, huge, uh, a huge domestic dust up between me and DeGal. Yeah. The British title comes across late. You see, I think DeGal, but you were massive underdog, massive underdog and nobody really gave you a chance to win. How was that then from two stable mates to then becoming rivals to then because even when you watch, like, I can remember it from years ago because even when the rivalries, you always seem camera. I don't know if that's because that irritated people more because you never seem to got agitated. You seem to have got under people's skin. Like, did you know how to push DeGal's buttons? But if being just not any serious, I think, um, I think that, that, that part of fighting, that part of competing of battle or whatever you want to go into, like, uh, is important. So, um, you know, every, every aspect of the bout we're about to take place is a fight. You know, not just once that first bell goes, it's before the fight, when the fight's made, you know, every time a camera comes out, I wanted to portray myself in a particular way.  You start off calm because you're in control.  You're just, you're there, present in the moment, and Robber to Punches, as cliche as that is. And that was kind of my approach with DeGal. My first time, really on the big stage, um, where essentially I ended up plugging and selling a paper view, you know, as a main event. So, you know, I wanted to behave and come across a particular way. I wanted to convince people that I'm not an underdog. You know, I shouldn't be an underdog. And even if I am, trust me, I don't believe that for one second. Um, I am cool, calm, composed. I know this guy. I know what it takes to be him. Um, and we will, we'll do it properly. So, um, yeah, I think, I think that that might have agitated him a bit. I think he was probably a bit nervous with the confrontations that we have to do pre-fight. Uh, he was, it would be much more content if we just, you have to just fight, you know. Uh, but my, my game plan was just to come in, listen to what you've got to say, anticipate what he's going to say. I should be honest. Beforehand. Um, and have a quick and sharp and composed and calm answer, uh, straight away.  It was great for Telly. Uh, you know, the sky used to do an episode of Ringside that went out weekly and is still their, their biggest ever episode where I think you've got the most views, most, most, most clicks, uh, people still talk about it now. So, um, because you had this certain that one? Yeah, well, that's the thing, you know, I mean, I'm a peacockin. You know, I gotta be honest with peacockin. I'm trying to make, make a scene, make a show of myself and, you know, I'll come in a suit with a, with a, with a Larry tire because I'm young and brash and this is what, this is me, you know, this is with how I, this is, this is me. Uh, knowing for world it would be a stark contrast to what James is going to wear because I just assumed he would come in tracksuit, you know. And it doesn't matter how designer the tracksuit is, you know, we're sitting on a stall with your t-shirt half and it looks a bit, to me, it would look a bit, um, you know, uh, unprofessional. So, I'll come suit with a booted, you know, we're here any excuse for me to put a shirt on, you know, I wear, I wear a tracksuit to work every day when I go to the gym so if I can put a shirt on, great for me. Uh, if he can sit down it, the tie, the tie is there, if he's going to mention the tie, I'll take that as a win and it's not the first time I've said it, but um, he doesn't know this is my, my mindset, but I'm like, if he mentions my tie, I've won. Like, I've won, I've won the argument, I've won the debate because he, because we're here to talk about boxing and he can't compete with me talking about boxing, he can talk about the tie. So, um, yeah, I mean, I, I remember coming out of that, uh, being like, I'm happy with that, I think that was really good, I think that came across really well. My, you know, my part, I think people will buy into that, whether they buy into me or not, not sure, but I think I've done well there and when I watched it back, I was like, yeah, that was good. I was happy with that. Because actually hitting the big stays then, was that your plan to come clean cup, like well presented, new kid on the block, still undefeated, like British title, massive fight, like, was that your plan to go in with that kind of style and reputation? I think so.  Um, but I didn't want to come across as, you know, uh, thick, like, you know, like, I mean, that was the cliche for boxing.  If it, if it wasn't boxing, I'd be out shooting and drinking and killing and this and that. And honestly, I don't know if I, I don't know if that would have been me if I was in boxing, you know, um, but so, yeah, I thought I'm trying to think a bit different, always do think a bit different. Um, because a bit different is interesting for me, you know, like if I see someone in a particular field and they're doing a little bit different, then I'm much more likely to gravitate towards that. Um, be conscious that that, not just the way I dress and the way I look, but also the things I say might help pick up traction, mirroring the press and keep journalists happy and stuff like that, which, you know, they've told me since, you know, it did, you know, I was always, I was one of half a dozen who could get in the, get in the national papers when that stuff sort of mattered before we would do stuff like this where this is now the medium that people, you know, um, eat up. But, uh, yeah, so I think that was important. It was really important. Um, and it helped for your boxing because it helped because there was, there was an element of game plan involved in that. Like, I'm gonna, if I can anticipate what he's gonna do, what he's gonna do and say now, it makes it much easier to anticipate what he's gonna do in the ring in 12 weeks time. How did you handle the underdog status? Like, because you genuinely believed that you were going to win. Like, how did you handle it? And was that an extra boost? That an extra boost of confidence to then go I need to prove all these people wrong or like, make you angry or like, how does that work? Like, how did, everybody works definitely with that sort of thing. But if you're underdog to arrival, like, how did it make you feel? I think the first, the first fuck, the first time I was an underdog, many times underdog, but first time we did Gale, was the first time I had to really deal with it and that was, that was tough. I think it was really tough. I had to be, um, resolute in, you know, unwavering self-belief. It's something I talk about now. And that is where I've sort of first, that first came in, you know, where you, you live and breathe it. Um, and you have to experience it, you know, with everyone. And then sometimes there'll be people out there who you believe will see things your way and then they don't and then you're like, well, really, so you want me to win, but I got a feeling you don't think I can win. Um, and I probably spent a bit of energy, a bit too much energy the first time around with the gal, trying to convince people of, the fact I'm gonna, I'm gonna beat them. This is not a step too far for me to three to one underdog, you know, odds that I've got. It's just bizarre or whatever it was. So, yeah, I'd say it was, it was tough. I wouldn't necessarily say it was, it was a motivation to, um, to prove these people wrong. It didn't feel like that at the time. I mean, the motivation was already there just to, just to be, to be James, like, because we're from the same place, you know. Um, and that time it was people actually, lots of people wanted me to win, but they just didn't think I could, which is like, not exactly by the time I crack on with, I'm fighting frauds, people now think I'm not gonna win, and they don't want me to win. So, that was a bit of a change up. But in terms of the first time with the, uh, yeah, being, being an underdog, um, it's just, James, it's just unwavering self belief. Like, it, whether you get that from, yeah, that's the thing. Where did you get that from? It's just, I mean, you get it from, you'll, you'll gain confidence, um, from putting the work in, being prepared in every way, not just hitting your targets in the gym, but getting yourself mentally prepared for the, for the, the, the challenge or the task at hand, whatever's coming your way. Um, sometimes that is more important than the physical side. Sometimes you can tick all the physical boxes, but if you, mentally are not there, then you'll, um, you just, you pretty much won't make it. Whereas if you're mentally there, but you might not quite tick all the physical boxes, as long as you believe it, I think you've got a much better chance of, of achieving it. Um, you know, I'm not exactly sure. When I came for the first time. You've got to dig deep about something, but I don't believe tactics you didn't like them, because he would just want you to just chip off rounds, like he wasn't wanting to go full steam ahead or come straight out. Like he would just want you to neck rounds, but you weren't happy with that. Why? Well, I think I, I mean, I went with it, like don't get me wrong, like it wasn't like, I was arguing with him every week. I don't want to do this. I went with it. I mean, and you know, you that's just, it just wasn't my style of fighting. So straight away, I'm going to have to say brand new. And if you're asking me to pick around, nick around, then there's a risk element to that, of course, that, you know, if they're, if they're watching it through the gal goggles, which they very well might be because he's an Olympic champion. He's the A side of the fight.  Then these rounds might not quite go my way. But I think you know, I definitely wouldn't wouldn't change the result in any way. I wouldn't roll a diask on, roll a diask on any other decision. I get, I get the idea behind the tactics because I mean the gal was a very good profile already where he, you know, he can sit in the pocket at times and and fight well, you know, he could stay in his legs, he could punch loose and fast from the hips. And to be honest, that where I was in my career, I hadn't quite really developed that, that side of my boxing yet. You know, I was still a real good fast sharpshooter like to keep stuff at real long range weight on the back leg and spring off and let him have it. And that's kind of what I've been developing with Adam Roof for the past two, two and a half years a David Hayes type style because ultimately that's kind of what happens a lot. Lots of trainers say, oh, every fight is different and we do everything very differently, but ultimately you can't help but pick up things from the guys around you, especially the guys who may be in front of you or being in bigger fights or whatnot. So, you know, I'm working alongside David Hayes now I've got a low left hand, now I've got a right hand dressed, I'm trying to do the shoulder roll and bouncing, I'm circling around the ring. So this was the right tactics for the girl. I think it was the right tactics for the girl. I mean, if we had boxed near the end of our careers and it would have been totally different fight and I would have fought differently, but by then I'd work with two other coaches. I'd been involved in however many other fights. So, but right then yeah, it was tough, it was hard because you had to be on it, you had to be on it and then the sparring partners in and south poor sparring partners which were hard to find at times and we had to get them in and out because I was sparring at frantic pace because, you know, it was calm in that, you know, your mind's nice and calm but we was doing this in and out movement, in and out movement circling, you know, pot shot in ones and two shots, break out again, create distance, create distance because we didn't want to get, didn't want to just sit in range with DeGal who would then just he could just let his hands go finish the exchange well and then ultimately just nick rounds himself that way, so How was that when the round, the final bell went, both of yous lifted your hands looked tough, 12 rounds like both of yous fought you'd win, like did you know, or did you think fuck, this is close? Yeah, I mean I was you got to be honest with yourself and sometimes you watch it back and you might confuse the memory but I genuinely believe that I was confident that I'd won the fight because we would sort of not, I wasn't tallying up the rounds when I was sitting down but there wasn't many rounds where I thought I've lost that round, it was rounds I was sitting down, it's like I've won that round, I've won that round, I've won that round, so I was convinced that I'd won the fight and in my mind at the time I thought I'd want it more convincingly than the scorecards or then you know, retrospectively watching it back also wanted to also know at this stage that in case that last round is the deciding round and my hand shoots up I've won this fight just to give the judges and the general consensus that of everyone watching at home that this is my fight, I've won this and I think people were just surprised that I was in the fight, let alone winning the fight because people thought the guy was just going to walk through me, so yeah, I think once Jimmy Lennon June is reading out the scorecards it's dramatic he realizes it's going to be a split decision or majority decision but once I realize there's a winner I've got my hand up already and this is nice one point probably two scorecards one point see that one there how does that then enhance your career because if you had lost how do you think you would have handled that rivalry, two undefeated fighters to be the best in Britain at your weight how do you think that would have affected you and set you back or do you think it would have pushed you on if you did lose that fight I would have been a massive setback at that point, a massive massive setback I wouldn't really know how to quantum the effects for that would be would it be me then doubting my team, doubting Adam Booth doubting the setup doubting myself in that I've gone along with this idea of fighting, was that right, was that wrong anxiety about where I go next because as I say I'm still the fighter trying to emerge trying to build a name so you get beat at this stage you're right to the back of the queue and it might take a couple of years to come again I had no major promoter behind me it would have been terrible that in itself means that the importance of that win to my career was huge so you've got the Commonwealth, European, British at this point, no, it's just Commonwealth and British I did fight for a world title before I win the Commonwealth and at the time it felt like a long time between winning the British and then fighting for a world title but really it's probably only about 9 fights? Yeah 9 fights to 90 but I think it's about 2 2 and a half years so it's fair enough long enough time so you must have been on cloud 9 then, you've beat a rival both undefeated fighters like you're buzzing did that give you so much confidence to then feel as if okay like everything I've set out to do coming into existence like world titles you're going to be a world champion soon you're just everything felt normal yeah, yeah, I know this is great but what next what next, you know, I'm taking on the world as I say at this point Jay, I think I'm the greatest fighter of all time don't get me wrong catch me now after a couple of beers I'll still tell you the same thing but yeah at this point it's just like I never got really hung up on legacy or anything like that but it's just like what's in here what do I believe like I'm wavering self-belief like well bring on the big guys who we've got next you know world champion at the time and I'm covering his fights for BBC on the radio and stuff like that and I feel like I'm ready to fight this guy already we we managed to get a world title challenge so I'll now sign with Frank Warren he'd sort of just set up box nation which broke away from Sky, he's got box nation which is a new TV subscription channel and it's struggling really to be honest he was struggling it's not like of course I've gone from sky paper view with DeGale to subscription only channel but Warren's doing his bit he's getting me fights, he's keeping me busy and he managed to get me a world title challenge in Germany against a chap called Robert Stieglitz for WBO I think it was I was out in Cyprus on a training camp preparing for that so the dream was rocking on like I'm pushing on for a world title I'm going to break all the boundaries I'm going to be greatest all the time I get injured in the build up for that fight and it gets hands up getting pulled, we tried to postpone it but at this stage I'm not the biggest draw where they postpone a fight so I'll get you're out someone else is in but to be honest that was a blessing because it's not a fight not that long after but yeah, we're in round the mix so you're 19 and 0 and again but your rivalries seem it's pure hatred again is that down to you or is it just created through even you're both kind you're fucking hated each other I think that's everybody to be fair but was that genuine to something to sell fights and you genuinely do hate each other by the end obviously to promote a fight you've got to cause chaos to put asses on seats and people to buy tickets but how did that rivalry start because by the looks of it you both did hate each other as well yeah, I think Fertrell can be honest with it and this is honestly for me I didn't hate him at the start I just just didn't nothing Tim that was the mindset of me is like I don't like you dislike you I just nothing you you're not important to me I felt and it sounds horrible but that's the way I would encourage any fighter to sort of be before a fight you know don't get emotionally detached emotionally detached I have no emotional feeling towards you in the slightest and he was going on his own journey it been in big fights for a long time and not quite sort of landed as a big British boxing name but coming back and beating after coming out of the super series beating Lucien Boute you know in his home in his hometown great win against an unbeaten fighter he was an underdog in that fight on free to air on sky subscription sky but so he's like his career is now taking off and in the meantime sort of I'm just meandering around so he probably got one eye on me knowing that you know I'm coming for him at some point and I'm not being nice about him like it's just not in my nature I think we're gonna fight then I'm you know the art of war kicks in early doors I went out to see he was boxing Mikael Kessler at the O2 in a unification fight and I went to Copenhagen to spar Kessler for that fight who was Kessler we only did a few rounds to be honest I never got a lot out of him but it was my fault I sort of sparred and flew home and he was like yeah he's good nice guy Kessler like lovely guy I remember him and Jorkel Zagifi like fucking unbelievable man yeah I mean he must have been quite young but he was definitely early on in his career that was a long time ago but a great great fighter you know an exception in terms of being a Danish fighter because they don't produce a lot of world champions but he's a special fighter that upset that upset Carl our box chief support on that card so that was Carol's first loss wasn't it no this was so this was the rematch when he beat him in the rematch yeah so now he's unified and it was the fight before for me yeah the IBF belt and then Eddie Hearn came to I was still with Adam Booth so Eddie Hearn came to the Haymaker gym in Vauxhall they went through the IBF rankings and like number one was vacant number three was fighting number four number five didn't want the fight I was number six do I want to fight a throttle or a mandatory yeah I like that yeah that's cool I don't know if they thought I'd be up for it or not or whether you know boxers always told you're not ready yet you need a bit more time I'm ready like I've been ready for years let's go so we had we had yeah I mean I left Adam as my manager I left him to it in terms of sorting out the fight with Eddie Hearn and then yeah it wasn't a hard fight to make we agreed to splits and away we go the biggest fight your career though that world title shot everything you've dreamed of as a kid the guy you've worked with your whole pro career 19 and all that he's done you massive favours I don't know obviously the fucking politics with the shit but how hard was that decision to then split ways with Adam Booth and the biggest fight your life yeah I mean Adam like we'd had a fractures that's the word relationship at times you know we had problems like everyone because you're working like in an intimate setting you know like you sort of and there was times where he as I say he's my trainer manager he's been my promoter he was someone who I looked up to at the start of my career and I thought he knew so much about boxing and then there's times when he's only human he doesn't know everything and at this point I just needed a lot more commitment it was it was it was maybe an awkward stage where sort of I felt like I was taking over from David Hayes David Hayes was the big boy that golden goose the pay-per-view star the guy who's world champion and sort of we all have to work around him a little bit I think Adam had problems with Hayes in that respect probably wanted to have a different setup with the next guy who's coming along the next David Hayes which is me I wasn't exactly sure how that was going to pan out between us but I was like right mate this is this is it this is me this is my time that's what I've been working for my entire life I'm the man I'm the main man I've always been the fucking main man James I'm coming now it's my turn jump in let's go and yeah so you know he we had a little we had a we had an argument about just before the first first press conference to announce the fight before us and I had told him about it and told anyone about it but in my mind I'd sort of I felt like I was making a real effort with him at the time like I felt like I was making more effort than I needed to for the train especially the train looking after the fighter but I was like pandering to him a little bit and he didn't want to come he sort of threw his dummy out the pram and he didn't want to come to the first press conference because he I think it was that he wanted to he wasn't sure if he had to be in London for a sparring session for David Hay because he was maybe fighting fury at the time David Hay doesn't start his sparring session before 8pm you know I've seen Adam Booth take sparring sessions over zoom for David Hay so I was like that wasn't a that wasn't a comfortable enough excuse for me to not to miss the first press conference my you know my world title fight personally I felt like he was maybe just trying to hold me to ransom or just want maybe just wanted me to say please and at that stage it was just like nah it's cool I'll go I'll sort it out and I just had it in my mind if we don't if he doesn't come with me to the press conference then that's great because then that's a clean break I've got everything sorted like I don't actually need anyone at this stage all I've got to do is fight the fight is made all I gotta do is sharpen fight and worse comes to worse I can do this on my own you know I that much self belief I can I can prepare myself for a world title on my own I've done it I've done enough camps now I know the training I know this I'll miss out on some pad work which will be a bit shit but I can book some sparring I can find a gym I can do all these things you actually expendable at this point if you're not that you're gonna do your job so yeah I think maybe it was a bit a bit chicken and bluff and then yeah that was it how the fuck does that make you feel do you know what I mean like you've put your whole life into this moment like and then you've got it in your mindset that you're gonna train yourself and do that like that sad and my is like somebody who's put it all in a line to then got his big chance and then you're thinking you're going to start training yourself or your biggest fight that because even when I think it was when you were doing the face off I think for what it says to you as your coach yeah you pick up on that well Adam and Adam had messaged Eddie her and the promoter and said no longer working with George so anything to do with this fight go direct to George obviously he's told for straight away like because Eddie's cool like that and I was like I was disappointed again disappointed with Adam that he'd done that so I was like so I've come up here without you you don't really know what I'm gonna say up here so you you maybe bold it and for I'll get in first and say I'm not working with George rather than me going up there and saying I'm not working with Adam at the time I was thinking that's a result I'm not paying him he's 25% or whatever he was doing but I know that was fight that I didn't really fancy having you know right now but I was just like okay cool this is this is this is good like when you're an underdog in these situations I can't help myself but feel that I want to convince the guy in front of me that you got it all wrong man you are you got it all wrong and as a car was at a stage in his career where he sort of he was getting a lot of positive you know feedback you know everyone loved him everyone was behind him everyone thought bought into him and he bought into that so he did struggle for a while just with my demeanour my you know my confidence even I wouldn't give him any ounce of what he seems to respect but me would just be just weakness you know I wouldn't be there to praise him we're going to have a fight we're going to share a ring we're going to swing at each other's chin I'm not giving you anything so I think he says that he struggled with that but that was just how it had to be and then having not having a trainer I was like I don't need a trainer I don't need anyone just me and you how did you prepare for that fate then a guy who I had done sort of ad hoc pad work with whilst training with Adam was a fellow called Paddy Fitzpatrick he run an amateur gym in Swindom an Irish guy who had travelled the world a bit worked in the wild card gym and a few other gyms knew a lot of people had always I think been like a second sort of in just maybe like a bit of gym rat you know but he knew a lot about boxing and he was he knew a lot about boxing and we'd done pads together and I thought you're the right man for this job you know you'll be interested in this job it's only 10 weeks out now so I'm not asking you to even I'm up heaving you at the moment we can do this so I went and had a meeting with Paddy I went down and met him at his gym he's got I've done about now he used to live next door to his amateur gym like there was almost like one big building and he's a cool quirky guy guys that remember him he talks with a funny accent you know he wears a cool hat he's got like a something hanging out of his mouth yeah that's literally that was Paddy so I said can we do this? first of all I've got this fudge fight what do you think? so I'm sort of trying to make sure that he knows that I can beat fudge I don't want to hear we'll try you've got to be singing from the same hymn sheet as me when they put a camera in front of your face you tell him we're going to rip fudges head off there's no long term plan here this is purely short term this is well titled 10 weeks let's go he was on the same page as me brought it he came to London coach Mick Delaney called said can I come and use the gym so I was in the gym in the morning before the juniors and the amateurs get in sort of in the evening so I could have the gym pretty much Monday to Friday every morning I brought a new conditioning coach in fellow called Barry O'Connell who's an extra world marine really cool, interesting guy, deep guy tough guy you know he ticked tough he was Sergio who was it at the time Martinez who fought Barker and I was like this guy looks like you just couldn't hurt him he gets electrocuted or something and he just doesn't touch the bone you teach me how to be tough we did some tough work with Barry Dan Lawrence who's working with loads of the matrimon fighters at the moment he was my strength coach and did some conditioning so between the three of them we whipped ourselves into shape for Manchester that's mad, was there no big coaches trying to grab you from like Adam Boothley did nobody come forward and say look come under our stable I don't think so, no that's fucking mad maybe I was a mess, maybe people think you don't touch this guy he could be toxic or maybe they just thought it was just a bit of pillow and I'm going to be back with Adam Adam and David and me in terms, we always were a bit an element of mystique about the whole setup and keep people guessing maybe they thought that could have been it but for me I probably wouldn't have trained with anyone else if the paddy wasn't around I likely would have trained myself just because I'd have missed out on all the pad work and I did a lot of focus mitt pad work in my pro career I always sought out coaches that did that because I think that's the best way to improve it's the closest thing to fighting apart from sparring so I like those guys, I like to think the feel and everything that comes with focus mitt pad work so yeah paddy came down we got ourselves in shape so what you were thinking on that fight then when you go into it like what's just known as a fast start like you came out flying was that tactics from the start to change up? we wanted to start quick start fast that's pretty much me I didn't always do it but that's the best way for me to start especially at that point I was pretty much a power fighter power athlete where I'd want to be aggressive and then just explode into range with big shots like a David Hay that's what I'd sort of drilled for years work with Adam Booth and then that's sort of who the professional that I sort of became what you were thinking then when you put throat in his ass was it the first round? you caught him clean and I think it was an eight count what you were thinking then you were thinking I've got him here yeah I mean you're thinking before the fight you're like you're not visualising knocking him down in the first round but you're visualising dominating him dominating the guy in front of you always everything's in your own control I never used to visualise being under attack or being under the cost or being behind on points it was always just visualise the very beginning of the fight, how are you going to come out how are you going to shape up being fast and sharp punching and then landing the big shots so first round Foch makes a mistake he gets overzealous, he crosses his legs walks into range, gets a big right hand over the top and down he goes remember it's just muscle memory you're just like there's a great shot of me just looking at him the whole wall of front row is jumping up this is my side obviously they're all jumping up shouting mine's just like no surprise I'll get him and there was no don't build anxiety now about this is nearly over, this is my chance I'm going to get this because if he weathers the storm then you've got to go again you don't want to do that you don't want to be thinking the fight's over or feeling like the fight's over and then you've got to go again that's exhausting I've dropped him in the first round got 11 more rounds to finish him off and yeah, I mean he doesn't really recover in my opinion from the first knock down he's got a great chin he's got a fantastic chin he's made like granite he's tough, he's a hard man he's got the right mentality for just getting whipped anyway so he's up off the floor he never really sharpens up after that because it's a heavy knock down he's punching him numb over the course of the next 5 rounds so by the end of the 6th round he lands a lot of big right hands a bit of inexperience from me working with a brand new coach biggest fight in my career I'm a bit right hand happy trying to finish him off really what I should have done was maybe vary the power a bit definitely going head and body brought a bit more in from the left side because you know that's the right hand the fight takes a bit of a slight dip of intensity but still winning the fight and then obviously 8th round in my opinion like referee jumps in and stops it for a bizarre reason when sure I'm tired so is Carl my body's shape up might make me look a little bit more tired than the guy in front of me but I'm not the one who's been punched in the post for last 8 rounds so yeah a bizarre decision from Howard Foster but that'd be the way it goes Foster should have never stopped but do you think he'd just seen you maybe tired and arms going down because you were still swinging but the arms did go down a couple of times but I think he's known for starting fights as fast as he's not yeah he's pretty well known for jumping in you're then billed as a compassionate referee which is a nice thing to get taken out but then you also run the risk of stopping the fight too soon and sure Carl tells us a great account where we do our little tours together he tells the story a bit different from mine I want to get a big screen up in the back feel like lip man I'm still punching back you're still missing I'm still there one left hand's already down I've got pale pasty skin which turns red I can't breathe out my nose I haven't since like 2011 so my mouth opens when I get tired you know I don't know it doesn't do me any favours sometimes where I do look tired but tiredness is not a reason to stop that fight it's a well titled fight which I should be miles ahead on the scorecard so tiredness is not there's an element of well if I got off sale got dropped heavy and I got up and then the battery in the corner and the referee jumps in you're like maybe he stopped me from getting KO'd but it wasn't that so it's just I mean just one of them things what can you do did you speak to Halifoster after that I mean I've never really spoke to Halifoster about it you're not allowed to speak to the British boxing border control officials in that regard they don't do any statements or anything public you usually get Robert Smith on who's the head of the board who will just unequivocally back his guys and maybe that's the best way for them to keep peace and order and get on with it you know there's been times where judges have got the scorecards wrong or fights have been stopped too early so he's always going to stand by his officials and I think it's probably the right idea to not have them come out and make a statement immediately after don't get me wrong I'd love an apology in private from him and he doesn't need to be a whole hearted you know he'd just be like sorry about that mate I don't really know but since then he's judged my fights and he's even reffed one of my fights since so you know he's not on my most wanted list or anything because well I'm not a referee but you don't know the emotion, the hype and what they see at that time to them to them and make that decision that's probably what you'll live with for the rest of your life like how do you deal with that 19 and know everything you've trained for confident that you're going to beat like it was a mega fight like to then beat fracture again like you can't take it away from a world class fighter but how does that then fuck with your mind like to then losing a world title short losing that losing your undefeated record at a dodgy decision like how was that probably the worst time in boxing for you but it was a little bit bizarre as well because you're sort of in this you're a ball dish train and it just keeps going you know so now I'm like I've got a lot of stuff going on you know I'm at war with Adam Booth trying to see out a management contract that you know we're disputing I feel like I've been robbed and fucked over by promoter I'm questioning his morals what has he done how has he had this involvement why is Howard Foster stopped this fight at this point like as he believed the hype that you know I'll start fast but fade late and frotches a championship fighter and you'll get rid of me was there any malice or corruption involved is it just what it is I've got no manager now no promoter Sky TV are behind me for their viewing but they're not necessarily going to help me with my career because if I don't harness sort of the public hype around me right now I'll soon just get you know forgotten about which happens you know time and time again to fighters so we need to capitalize on this capitalize on the public outcry really for what felt like justice at the time and because of that it didn't really feel like a loss we took ourselves to New Jersey in New York to appeal with the IBF to get reinstated as mandatory challenger which at the time was a big gamble you know I had other promoters telling me sign with Golden Boy and we'll get you a WBC shot win two months you know sign with this one and we'll get you we'll create a WBA regular belt for you to fight for you know there was so many options but each one meant I had to sort of give up give up something give up you know be tied in something that maybe doesn't pan out and it's me on my own making these decisions in real time I've got a solicitor who relatively doesn't I've got a solicitor who relatively experienced but not in this sort of field and then Paddy who's been in and out the gyms but he's still brand new to me like I I want his opinion on it but I don't really want the pressure of him making those decisions as such but we did we went to the IBF we got reinstated as mandatory Eddie here and telling me on the way out there on the flight out that you're wasting your money and I said no I said a a mandatory challenger so let Frosch know or he can post me the belt I'll have it you know he's like it's all good for the papers why would he not want you go for the fight again I'm not sure maybe he did maybe he didn't maybe he just wanted a little bit more control at this point I am wild I mean I am going about my business and I'm unpredictable I've learned from David Hay that being unpredictable adds value I'm telling Eddie here and listen mate I'm promoting this fight and don't forget like this is Eddie here and trying to emerge like he's Eddie here and trying to he's not the man he is today quite yet you know he's still in the making so he wants to promote the fight I said no I'm promoting the fight I'm doing site visits at Twickenham I said I've got a venue I've got a backing I'm holding I'm going to Monaco for meetings with your Russian billionaires trying I was like it's all really just a hassle I would love Eddie here to promote this fight I don't really want to do this job but I need to create why are you doing that because you feel as if you're getting fucked over with all these contracts and people working with you through your career I think so enough becomes enough basically at this stage I just want to make my own decisions and be in charge of my own destiny as such and I didn't really have any trust or faith in anyone else to do the job I'd felt I'd been let down by Adam who was my trainer manager promoter and I felt like I felt like the underdog in every sense of the world I just felt like there's no one here for me I've got I've took the ball by the horns and led from the front in the last 10 weeks to challenge Foch came really close so I can do this Do you think it would have been a different result if Adam Booth was there? Maybe maybe Adam would have had gave me slightly different instructions throughout the fight that might have made a difference but in truth I'd sort of lost a lot of confidence and belief in him at this stage so even if he was telling me something I'm not sure whether I would have believed it or not I don't know you just don't know you'd say probably he could have given me better instructions and then I could listen and got a slightly different result because I could have boxed better in that first fight in terms of as I say so right hand happy but Adam wasn't the master trainer and sort of dark lord all knowing person that I kind of thought he was for a little while you realise that you talk to fighters and you've got to be out in it amongst it and by me who I'm sitting here now I've worked with half a dozen different coaches and pros some intense periods years on some just in and out of gyms observing I've been around world class fighters all this stuff picks up there's no right or wrong there's no exact sciences and then you have to figure it out for yourself Adam kind of I don't know how much time he'd spent working with other coaches or even when he was with me working with other fighters I'm sure he's a much better coach now through working with I don't remember there mcconnellan and harlem eubank and whoever else he's with then he was with me back in 2012 so yeah maybe I mean it's a good point so the second fight comes mega fight wembley 80,000 people unbelievable I was buzzing for that fight as well because after the first fight you wanted after the result you wanted you to win so everybody started backing you everybody was trying to talk after everybody was booing and rightly so because it was stopped too fast but the second fight comes you've got the confidence you've got the people behind you like did you get into that fight too over confident then? what was the preparation for that? like did you have new coaches? I kept the same team it felt like a bit of a whirlwind and there wouldn't be any time to address any problems futles only the first fight was maybe November November 13 and then the next fight didn't come around until May the following year but we'd spent three months negotiating it and then by then you're ticking over training then we're into it we're on and training wise the team hadn't done anything wrong we were only getting going this what we could produce after 10 weeks what we're going to be like in the next fight Tactics wise we were going to build into the fight and maybe I'd sort of bought into the hype of I was gassed out you're going to gas out so we won't start with the same intensity that we had in the first fight we'll build into it first half we win the rounds box clever and then the second half we give him hell but that's kind of a hard that's really hard to do you can do it in boxing but it's like if you're a middle distance runner you don't do the first laps mega slow and then try and sprint the rest you run an even pace race and what I should have done was probably should have just started the first fight where the second fight where the first fight ended and jump on him and give it to him that might have put him back into a place where he doesn't want to be in make him go back to his survival things or just what comes natural to him and then he's a natural fighter for us so he'll come out and punch but he'll punch in positions when he has no right to punch so that's when you have to take advantage of it but it was much more tactical in the first fight and then yeah he's the 8th round you make a mistake this is the hardest lesson to learn you make a mistake in boxing you switch off for a second and it's not who wants it most it's not dig deep someone shut you down and you haven't got up in time to beat the count so it's not who wants it most it's you make a mistake you pay the ultimate price and that was demoralising of course it was a life's work to that point but it felt like this is 6 months 8 months work to date and I'm now going to be surmised the whole of this saga is going to be you know surmised by one punch which was just heartbreaking yeah so how do you then kick on from that two defeats first thing you've been put was that first thing you've been put down now I've got off the floor to win so I'd boxed Kenny Anderson he's a Glasgow guy tough my fucker so he won the Commonwealth Games my first defence in the Commonwealth title was it put you down there you go so Kenny I don't know what happened to Kenny he's hanging around with some dangerous people I don't know if anyone's heard of him since but he's a real tough guy older than me just walk forward I was trying to be cute and clever with my floppy hair and trying to jab him slip and slide under Adam Booth and yeah he just marches me down it's me with a not like a great shot really sort of like just a concussing shot just like scramble my brain a bit sort of go down to the side get up and then my legs just not with me and then I have to just grind it out grind out and stop him in the 6th round thank god but yeah so I've done off the floor to win James but this time it's not off the floor to win it's off the floor but you didn't beat the 10 count but like I say man those two fights obviously not for you but for the British people to watch that the height before it was that's what you want to see isn't it but how long did you take after that defeat did you take some time off or did you just no no no straight back in it was like got make up for lost time now did you just don't believe that you were going to be world champion or did you think things had slept no no unwavering self-belief at this point it's like ah fuck me you know new lesson to learn don't switch off for a split second you know but what are we going to do how do we get back in the picture so Frotch had the belts and I think James DeGal was his mandatory so he was kind of tied up we probably thought he was going to retire so we went from Wembley Stadium at the end of May I'd signed with the Salon brothers so Salon promotions Kala and Issa Salon so they pretty much managed me really more than promoting me the next stage of my career we went through the the champions WBC they had a great relationship with and they're like right we can get you a mandatory challenge for the WBC you can win this next belt the final eliminator for WBC we picked this guy Christoph from Brass who was also European champion ranked number 3 with WBC so it was like this is a good fire good ranking you know we're naming your status right now this will push you straight in line so yeah we went from Wembley Stadium in May to Wembley Arena in September which is quite a calm down we went from sky box office doing massive numbers to squeezing on to an eddy sort of free to air show which I went to sky I mean I lived not that far from sky I knew all the guys at sky went into the head of sky sport sat in his office and was like I need a date for my comeback fire as I talked to eddy I was like mate come on like I just I've bled for you like and I like I like the guy at sky and he sort of he's like look man it doesn't matter I talked to eddy I was like cool so we came away salad brothers got a great relationship with eddy so they managed to get me on the show but there's no money there it's now just we're chasing it I'm chasing it it needs to become world champion yeah I think we're all desperate at this point you know good money for the rematch so I'm okay for money for a bit I'm not fighting for money right now I'm fighting for the bell let's take the fights that we need to have to get the bell winning that fight against Robras didn't box to my best I felt a bit flat and a bit stale I think I was carrying a lot of stress coming back after the loss trying to reinvent myself to a certain degree trying to promote myself without the help of Sky or Matrim or pretty much anyone with these German guys who ain't really got a big influence in the UK worldwide they have they can get me the fights but in terms of promoting me the brand like it was tough so yeah a bit flat I had to train really hard it was a struggle to make the fight but European title something I'm proud to have won and WBC Silver title and now back in line for Shot at World title which at the time was probably vacant it was Saki Obika vs Annie Dorrell for the purest boxing fans so by the time that came around so box September probably it took me about a year I had one fight in between but it took a year to get that challenge supposed to be in Vegas at a Cosmopolitan hotel against Badu Jack on a PBC card which was really exciting I'm going to headline in Vegas Wembley Stadium we've made history so to headline in Vegas it's still not as good as Wembley Stadium but it's pretty you'd always done America for a very young in your career but you were always there you fought in undercards in Mayweather and you went to America 3-4 times is that correct? who's decision was that yours to try and crack that well the boxing as an amateur was just a club thing we went there and then boxing out there in the early part of my pro career was an advantage through working with David Hay David Hay was undercards with Golden Boy we had a great relationship with Golden Boy Robert Diaz used to take care of us and he used to get me on some undercards boxing in the market Diaz undercards at the Mandalay Bay and I had boxed out in San Jose on a Guerrero undercard and that by the time it arrived this was on the undercard of Floyd Mayweather at the time last fight against Andre Burto we were chief support at the MGM Grand which was cool I mean it was interesting because you're out there for the press workouts and that and they're like wow you're on the undercard of Floyd Mayweather how does it feels like feels pretty shit mate you ain't done your research you find better Jack is it your big step up well maybe but yeah again it's my third world title how does that make you feel that they're not really know who you are they know you as Mayweather's undercard not realising you've just done all time figures in Britain that I was alright at that point they're Americans you leave your ego at the door in that respect but fame wise it took off in and around the rematch I remember I went on holiday to Vegas after the Frott's fight with like bunch of my friends I took my mom and dad and stuff like that and then your fat and out of shape paced the lane by the pool drinking a Bud Light and then I'd gone from like DeGale after the DeGale fight people would be really excited to see you they'd come and go oh George how you doing and they can have a selfie like yeah yeah now I'd come to like maybe I was a bit more unapproachable and they're like oh so the people would be taking the selfie on the slide and the bellies hanging over your shorts you're like mate just come and ask me for a picture I'll put your fucking phone away I'm not in a mood I'm not happy in a moment I'm not a nice guy but yeah come and then you skip on again another year that was cool it was nice you're trying to at this point I'm trying to live my best life and then try and appreciate a little bit as well because I didn't appreciate anything to do with Wembley because I was so focused on the event beforehand trying to create something walking into the unknown there was no one there or I could ask or lean on and say what's this like it felt like we were setting new boundaries and then afterwards because I didn't go my way I just buried it all memorabilia that's in the skip anything my mum and dad are clawing posters and that out of the bin you might want it back one day and then now where's that pose going what made you keep going I think at this point I mean so I'm chasing it I'm chasing up to Badu Jack and then I go to Vegas and I fight and I put everything in it's like it is all or nothing at this point we were in California for seven weeks training six weeks same team Paddy and at this point Paddy I sort of lost a bit of confidence in Paddy because of defeats yeah well not even yeah the defeats but then I had another fight after that and I hadn't boxed too well after the Rabras fight so the first fight was great second fight box okay next fight not great and then the last fight not great at all so it's like I felt like I was even I won the last two I was kind of not really performing and I didn't really give him any sympathy or sympathy I didn't really give him any you know allowance for the fact that this is big for him too you know what I mean I've plucked him out of his amateur club and then I've said right come with me to this pay-per-view massive fight in Manchester and then from there we're going into a post-war attendance record biggest fight in British boxing and never gave him any allowance for is he up for this challenge like is he capable of this so ultimately I'm the man in the arena like it's up to me I've got to perform so yeah but at that point I didn't I felt like I needed someone else apart from Paddy I didn't want to get rid of Paddy but I wanted someone else I wanted someone to bounce ideas off but I just too scared to make a change you know I've made this change leaving Adam before the first fight and it hadn't worked out so I couldn't do the same again I didn't know where to go who to speak to what to do so we went through with it and do you lose confidence in making decisions yeah at that point you know you know you're disappointed to be yourself after you're like really disappointed in yourself that was my lowest point losing the battle jack I've gone from sort of breezing through the first loss being rock bottom after the second loss thinking that's it and then third loss I describe it as now you're thinking about your life instead of boxing rather than your life after boxing you know you might have plans for your life after boxing but now it's like I'm not gonna be a boxer anymore and I still haven't done what I set out to do so what the fuck does that mean like and then I toyed with that idea for a little bit not on it felt like a long time at the time James you know you feel like you've been stewing on it for years but actually retrospectively it was only probably only eight weeks and then I started looking I was like no I'm fucking I'm gonna be a champion world champion now I've got to be the best I can't leave this sport without becoming a world champion that is how I'm gonna measure success when you're a kid when you're seven years old when I first dreamt about being a boxer I wanted to be the world champion I wanted to be the best fighter in the world and then skip forward you know you grow up you want a car you want a nice house you want this you want that you got a wife you got kids you got responsibilities now you know you want money you want all these other things came into play and then I went full circle like I'm measuring my success now fuck the rest like it's gonna become world champion can't leave this sport without that so I'm trialled out a few coaches found Shane McGuigan who was training Carl Frampton at the time who was I think a world champion at the time and he had a bunch of great fighters in the gym with him so there was Josh Taylor who's probably only like one or two and Conrad Cummins and there was a few in there it was a great environment for training Barry McGuigan there who's just had been there done it which was reassuring for me he had been involved in the big fights had a lot of experience Shane said the right things the right things that worked for me and was I right to sit man we'll go again we'll go again we'll learn from our mistakes we won't be chasing it like it felt like from from Foch2 chasing it to the Badu Jack fight now we can step back relax a little bit learn from our mistakes um and push on and fucking make it work this time and what was the plan from the Badu Jack defeat to get another world title shot like did you have get another two free fights build up your confidence then we'll go for another title I was just trying to get you straight back in for another title shot so the way it sort of panned out was that yeah I was still signed with the Salon brothers and they pretty much picked up a lot of the management side of things because I didn't actually fight on one of their shows again first fight out was January on a matrim show on Sky so I'm back in familiar territory I was in London at the Copper Box MGM Grand Mayweather Copper Box everyone's fucking stuff stuff with turkey and hungover and they're waiting for their January paycheck to come in it wasn't we didn't we didn't set the world like that that night in terms of you know rocket and ticket sales everything but back to winning ways back main event back in London back on the road to you know becoming a world champion so we had that then we was out on two Joshua undercards um chief support so back in the public eye second one was against Martin Murray who's like me a former world title challenger who hadn't quite got over the line and it was billed as a 50-50 fight we've you know I think people a lot of people thought it was going to be 50-50 but we was in good shape I thought this could be a comfortable fight beat Martin really really comfortably um and that was the that was a final eliminated for the WBA so now we're back in that position where I've just got to wait for the WBA to sort itself out but in theory my next fight could be for a world title so I'm there I'm there just don't fuck it up this time you know and what happens then when you get the fourth call another world title coming up what are you thinking like obviously you've your whole career you've been confident the losses the setbacks the fucking management so it knocks fuck out you I'd imagine it would drain you but the fourth fight like world title coming up your fourth opportunity like how you get into that you dig in over confident or dig in do you know what fuck I've got my family I've got my kids I've got a roof over my head really let's just enjoy this experience no no this was this was like this was uh this this if it doesn't happen now I don't think I could have emotionally gone again you know and I definitely didn't want to be famous for for not getting over the finish line this was uh this had to be like this I had to make this work um I was I was confident I was really confident um but not maybe slightly different in that not like absolutely cock sure of like this is this is my time like you like I had in the first two fights it was more like you know prepared to best your abilities got there and box out your skin and let's hope it let's hope it fucking happens because anything can happen in boxing you know um anything can happen in boxing I'd signed into this tournament so the world boxing super series had been set up and they wanted like it was set up with Calla Sauron who was obviously my promoter he had sort of left um Sauron to join the world boxing series and he's on the hunt for sign up a bunch of fighters season one they want to do super middle weights called me and they want to do cruiser weights because they know they can get me in straight away and if I win my world title then they've got a world champion straight away signed into their tournament and you know if I'm they they launch from me that would be easier for them to sign up other champions or other big names that was like a fucking serious one so yeah it was good series so I'm like they're like this all this chat happened before the the Tudino fight for the world title fight and I worked it out like I had two contracts one going in as world champion one is not world champion going as number one seed and you've got life changing money like guaranteed for your first fight second one I think it was like a 19th of the purse like I was like I was back to I mean I don't think I would have I wouldn't have even thought for that much money but just the contrast in what they were you're like fucking hell like wow there's a lot on the line here so not only do I need to win this world title for my own sanity also this world title genuinely does put me on the path to the end of my career leaving the sports happy and satisfied and it's a it's one of them fights like if you've seen the fight you know there's Tudino don't look too much on paper don't look too much even in person but just a fucking hard hard boss man and luckily for me I've been in them fights I've been in them fights so I could and I got the experience to stay relatively calm but the third round he sort of rolls a right hand over the top and at this point I've got no real bearing in the fight I haven't really put a proper dent in him I'm confident that worse come to worse I can see this fight out you know beating him on points but this ain't an easy night's work he rolls the right hand over and I hear a big crack on this side of my mouth and I'm like he's broke my jaw like I broke my jaw 10 years earlier I was like I know this feeling and I could just fill my mouth filling up with blood well fuck it you're in it now whatever that'll do don't let him hit you again sit down I don't tell any of the corner I thought I don't really need them panicking I want him telling me something that because of their reaction to that so anyway Shane McGuigan goes to take my gum shield out I'm like sorry I'll leave it it's not coming out it's wedged in the next round he casts me with another right hand I think cut over this eye and into the eye and you're taught early on don't wipe the blood away from your eye because you're giving the referee an excuse to stop the fight but at this point I'm like I've got to see him can't not see him so I'm trying to dab the blood away fifth round I haven't really got him he might even do quite well in the fifth round he might just ramp up the pressure and then the sixth round starts I just bounce off the back leg roll the right hand over the top momentarily stun him then it's hitting one of them dolls nothing's happening nothing's moving him but I just keep punching to the referee luckily he falls into me the referee pulls us apart and then it's like three more big digs and then Steve Ray waves off the fight and then it's like I can breathe it's been years three and a half years I think in the making I've been waiting for this I can just breathe a sigh of relief I can put to bed all the trauma all the anguish all the paranoia all the hate and bitumen and resentment that I've got for all these people and everyone else involved and boxing in general I can just be like that's what I do first thing I think is also I'm supposed to be boxing in about 12 weeks like in this world series and I've got broken jaw but we'll really enjoy tonight we'll sort our problem out in the morning could you not enjoy it because you know you're going straight back into more fucking grenades because the fighters that were on that series was at Callum Smith, U-Bank Junior like phenomenal fighters seemed to win that world title like you say it was a relief but could you enjoy it everything you've worked for then? yeah, I think it did make sense but it's not like it's more like a relief a relief feeling like rather than a joyous jumping up and down celebrating I think that then sort of reactions come when you haven't necessarily faced any real hardship or adversity or just been down and defeated you know like when you've had to slug back at the fourth attempt finally make it it is just a massive sigh of relief the weight of the world have been lifting from my shoulders and then as time goes on I see things differently I see things real differently I probably became a totally different fighter after that I still had three more fights to have but you know I can honestly say the same desire it leaves you you've completed the challenge it's been done I knew my time was numbered in boxing I've been looking at exit strategies for years out of frustration every time you know I just tend to go your way like you know my life's changed now I'm in that club and I can leave the sport happy which something that I wasn't sure I would be able to do for a large period of my career but now I know I can how did your mum and dad react like when you become this boy comes world champion everything that you've tried to achieve the ups and downs but obviously speaking to you now you've always believed that you would get there so fair play to that but how does your parents react to something like that? yeah I'm not sure I'll say I believed it but not everyone else around me maybe believed it I think they're really happy for me I'm sure they were really happy for me they've said the same I think boxing for them just got so intense you know like over the years and then the harder it got for me the more unbearable it got for them do you think it takes its toll on them seeing you suffered and lose? oh yeah definitely I mean you suffer and win sometimes but yeah there were fights where my mum couldn't come or my dad couldn't come I'd always have tickets for him but I think it was just like I aged them a lot in the process because they were there from the start and they're your biggest fans at times and they I think it's happy memories they love boxing more than me if you go around they've got the boxing on more often than I have and all my fights they're just typical parents it's all my fights are on the skybox they probably roll them out embarrassingly when people come over you're like I've done one my four year old would be in there and I'd turn the tune and I'd fight off like my kids looking at me like that so you've won the world title you've achieved everything you've set out to do in boxing like you say that take pressure off you get into the super series yeah I did it really did it really did now I can have fun and leave from the front and still like be who I am they said you get to pick who you want to fight first so it's like four seeded versus four unseeded so I can pick who I want out of the unseeded and I picked Jamie Cox who we used to be mates we're not mates now so we don't see each other we used to share a room together but he used to be a lightweight when I knew him now he's like ballooned up now he's like a super middleweight and he was unbeaten he could punch not like the easiest fight to pick but I felt like I knew enough about him that I'll have a bit of Jamie yeah and I sort of planned it so that I would meet Eubank in the semi-finals because seed one could fight seed three or four and I was like well make sure I'm fighting whatever seed Eubank was because I wanted to get him in the semi-finals well he was more money what was that? I can't go into detail but he was like they could have been an easy fight I think it was either him or Jürgen Bremer I think he would have been in his 40s by then he might have been the easier fight but Eubank, I've done a lot of rounds with him I knew it would be fun, I knew it would be interesting I like the Eubanks, I like the dad he's an interesting character Ronny who used to train him at the time yeah I was up for that so yeah we negotiated Eubank in and then it was whoever got through in the final turned out to be Calum Smith how does that work with that super series have you got to negotiate contracts before the face or does it negotiate negotiate after each fight so no no no so you sign in before you before you go that's why it's quite difficult for the company, the promoters to actually get a lot of fighters in because a lot of fighters are you try and get an American world champion they don't want to sign away for free fighters not so much but free fighters and you're going to fight this guy, this guy, this guy and the likelihood is that each of these three fights is going to be hard and get harder as you go along like some fighters they might not mind a hard world title fight but then they want a nice easy first defense or what not but that's how that tournament works and they've got they've been hanging around waiting for season 3 but I think they've got an all female season 3 coming out soon which might be good I'm not sure I'm not sure the level of the competition I'm not even sure what way it is the concept is great I remember going to the cinnamon watch that we had in Glasgow during U-Bank me and my big friend Barry watched that because I think with the U-Bank were you nervous at that fight because obviously a younger kid I think you've lost one to Billy Joel Saunders were you feeling confident getting into that fight as well I was a lot bigger in U-Bank were you a favourite at that fight no he was this is underdog madness that was the one that really confused me but they've done an incredible marketing job on U-Bank at the time his dad was telling everyone he's the best his dad's class, he's a funny bastard he's a clever man and he's an interesting man I hope he's okay with the loss of his son he puts on a facade to a certain degree but the facade he wants to put on but the facade is that he shows no weakness so there's something I've bought into at times you know I didn't I didn't show any vulnerability until winning the world title and then people stop me now and go afterwards it's like wow I saw a human side to you I'm fucking human and then it's funny when people talk to me now and they're like I always thought you was weird it's like yeah I thought you was weird I was like what was weird but I suppose I did come across different to a lot of people because that was just the way I thought was the best result I was happy to come across a certain way if I thought you could be an advantage in a fight I mean don't be wrong you don't have to be a stand up comedian that would be a dream fucking just make people laugh but then at the same time it would work because half way through I go I don't even fuck what you people think anyway and that's kind of who I am but maybe that's why a lot of fighters are I spend a lot of time with Carl Frutch now and he reminds me of that sometimes where he don't give a shit to what he says how he treats people but then Saan click one bit and he's like he feel bad about something or you're not necessarily regret Saan but you think maybe I should play that a little bit different do you think that's a persona most boxers have because they're known as fighters, manly men do you think that's all I let you say Chris you're buying senior you've got to put on that but realising that we're all fucking human we're all the same, we all struggle we'll have our moments but do you think as a boxer you have to be that extra little bit tougher to not show much emotion yeah definitely I think so I think I wouldn't I wouldn't have it any other way really it's tough sport it's physically demanding, mentally demanding and emotionally demanding because it's your own personal emotions of combat sport, someone's trying to hurt you you're trying to hurt them that's weird really if you take it out of boxing in any other context that isn't like a sport it's a bit weird and then you've got the emotional element of family members so as you grow up and you become more aware you might have a partner or kids and then as soon as that happens you're usually softened and then you're more aware of what your parents might have been feeling while you was fighting, what your loved ones your close friends and stuff like that so it's tough in that respect but then at the same time you want to be the man in the arena you've got to get on with it I think you've got to be tough it's good it's good to be tough it's good to be resilient you've got to have that bit of grit to kick on see your fight with the German kids at Eduardo how did you handle that with the the brain swearing so I boxed Eddie Goodnick what was his name? we called him Eddie it might have been Edward Goodnick a German based fighter we had a fight it was after the Martin Murray fight before the Tudor fight so the fight before I fight for World Title I boxed Eddie in a keep busy fight really it's on channel 5 WBA has taken a long time let's have another fight keep busy little bit of money comes in we boxed 12 rounds he's never really in the fight I land some big shots on him but nothing to really stop him prompt the referee to stop him I think the referee could have done him a favour or more likely the corner should have done him a favour but that's all hindsight and then he collapses in the changing room I remember being in my changing room and my physio came over and whispered like Eddie's collapse in the changing room and you know what that means it's got to be really bad for them to come and tell me so they rush him off to hospital he has a bleed on the brain I think they put him in an induced coma probably operate on him I go and visit him with Nyssa Salland say on the Wednesday maybe he's in Paddington hospital in London and yeah he was like a shell of the man that he was Saturday it was for me crazy I couldn't believe that someone could deteriorate that much over four days and now his wife's over his wife, his sister and his brother and his dad and they were really nice to me which you know harboured no resentment they're like it's boxing we understand and yeah I mean that brought it to home because it's got three kids they're over it just trying to earn a living and he would never be the same again this time they don't even know if he's going to wake up since he is awake but he's not the same he can barely walk, he can barely talk he made improvements but that might be as far as he's going to go so yeah it's tough I was a dad at the time and then you realise when you're a dad you're not exactly fighting it's not for yourself anymore I'm not really willing to go out on my shield quite the same as I used to before I'm not going to die for the cause I'm not going to die for the people so yeah I mean it was really tough I mean then and there my days are numbered in boxing it's not why I got into boxing at that stage in my career it was really tough really really tough because you're like yeah you got I don't know you got like a maybe an element of guilt but also you're like a sport so you don't feel guilty but you do feel bad it's a boxing end of the day people say it's boxing end of the day you signed up for that but it's the emotional thing to see that man with his kids and his wife in one day potentially could be you as well it's a total it's hard for people to explain I recommend to see somebody like but like you say it's like this boxing that you love you know that people get involved in but to still see that it doesn't really fucking take it away that it's happened do you know what I mean but then again you've won the world title you've went on you've fought you a bank that was an unbelievable fight like did he not he had his eye cut you had dislocated your shoulder like because you had won that did you know you were coasting that fight the last few rounds like how did he start punching like did you know what he was going to do also yeah we had our game pan we was going to keep it sort of on our terms don't need to sort of necessarily sit in the pocket and trade with him because he does have a good engine he does throw his shots technically pretty sound in the pocket bent arm shots and he can't compute me at the long to mid range so that was what we were going to do because your jab was classed that fighter yeah so yeah I mean you always want to control control a guy with a jab dictate with a jab the other shots can come off of that and he just give him no bearing in the fight he's he would be you'd imagine also that his game plan was to sort of wear me down and try and get me late I mean that's what everyone I was my paranoid that everyone would think they could have success in that respect and more so than even if I knew that that wasn't the case I don't really want that I don't really want that little guy will jacked up from round 8 thinking I'm going to get him now I'm like can we not just like touch and pull and move around but you know I mean I wanted to get rid of him but there was a there was this weird element of this being a semi-final a finals coming it's big money in the final like don't fuck this up because the finals there and as I say I know I'm on a ticket like I'll sign this at tournament it was three fights I was supposed to be in the space of 12 months and that was me out of the game if I'd lost in the first fight that would probably be me out of the game second by third fight so you know just get through win do well you are it's weird at this point I'm just end goals in sight you know let's go dislocate the shoulder in the last round which is beneficial for me that not being the first round I assume it's like a wear and tear injury it might have happened a little bit in the building up but literally I punched my own shoulder out of in the 12th round maybe at the end of the 11th I feel something weird maybe a partial dislocation or something and then I remember it popping out and back in in the 12th I'm thinking oh that's a bit gnarly I don't like that don't throw any more power shots or any more hooks but the next jab that comes out it just comes out I try and get it back in and it won't go back in I was like well this is cool hopefully everyone can see that I've got a dislocated shoulder at this point and not that I'm just doing something weird at the end of the fight so yeah I mean it just adds to the drama of a lot of my fights which is kind of cool how was it beating your back junior yeah cool I mean nice again like again underdog I mean that was like a bit bizarre how they sort of sold him but great good to get the win and newbanks a solid fighter he's a good ambassador to the sport he's a professional he lives and breathes it so I was really happy with the win but likewise like when I broke my jaw winning the belt and I've got to prepare for a fight I'm in the final of this tournament I've got a dislocated shoulder and already before I've even got my agents are arguing with the promoters because they want this fight to take place in a certain amount of day it ain't going to happen so we had a massive stress huge stress just to be in the final which took months to sort out so our fight was in February and I probably didn't start training properly till the end of July just because it's hard to get your head switched on for a camp until the fight date is set at the same time I'm in agony trying to rehabilitate a shoulder flying out to Berlin to get assessments for the tournament flying here for specialist rehab in my physio's office four times a week in Soho trying to get the range back and get the strength back in switch the nerve endings back in back on and stuff like that so that was a torrid time in the retirement process because that was such a stressful hard camp it did take a lot out of me I think just rushing maybe if I sort of said right dislocate your shoulder give yourself 12 months to come back rather than give myself three months to come back because I wanted to make that final that was my end goal that was it unboxing this final when I lose were you going to retire anyway or you've had another couple if you'd won I planned it's hard to tell but the dream was to win the tournament and then retire there might have been a DeGal fight after there might have been a Canelo fight after but this was before Canelo had come up to the middle and James DeGal had the IBF but had a mandatory and a few others so there was talk of me pulling out the tournament and fighting DeGal keeping the belt so I would have come out with my own world title fighting DeGal or stuff like that but it was just back to the back back back to work in terms of promoting this promoting a fight selling a pay-per-view getting fit and healthy doing this doing that rolling the dice on is it going to be a success or not and by then I just I was happy with what I had I was like you're becoming tired tired some it sounds fucking tired some I mean it is yeah it is I mean it is and it was and this just almost feels like a 10 year grind now and as I say as an amateur I lived and breathed it as a little kid I went 28 and I was an amateur as a kid like I only got beat when I started boxing for England and they said to me to Russia and places like that and fight and these Europeans yeah bashing fuck out yeah so like I was on it from the get go you know like so I had a 10 year career that was the hectic 10 years but I'd been a amateur for 10 years as well where I felt like I'd been pushing it so by this point yeah I think I am tired I've got two two beautiful boys at this point two under two for the last the last camp mother-in-law and father-in-law have moved into the house to help help mum deal with pregnant end of pregnancy with a tiny toddler as well as you know post post birth and I'm sort of trying to sleep through baby crying and stuff like that so it was yeah no it was and then they sent us to Saudi Arabia which was fun as well how was it retiring that would you really had 28 professional fights many professional fights did you have I think I think I had yeah just over I think I had 28 wins maybe and 34 losses so yeah retirement was okay I mean I was ready for it I think I was ready for it it wasn't like just arrived at my lap for an injury or fizzled out through lack of opportunity or something like that I remember my agent Dean at Wasserman was I'm sure there was an opportunity to fight Billy Joe Saunders for a vacant WBO world title Frank Warren was pitching our way I was like nah man I'm retiring I've had enough I can't face another camp like the shoulder still wasn't right which was cool so I just had fun like I was in the gym for the first time we could turn off the turn off the pressure cooker you know like you always got to be on it like that's what I realized through retirement you've always got to be on it and the difference between needing to and wanting to is night and day like now I can want to get to 12 stone but it ain't happening like because I want to but if I need to get to 12 stone I fucking will get there like I have to do it you know and there's things there's just retirement is a blessing if you can find sort of a bit of contentment and contentment I mean happiness you know and I am I feel I feel I'm happy you know I'm happy as a possibly could could have been you know I've got lovely people around me I'm happy at home and I can dip my toe into the boxing world as and when I choose which is it's so much better for me right now than the constant pressure of being the man in the arena that you will miss that you of course you'll miss like fucking spotlight on you and leading from the front but it does come at a cost you know you kind of your cake and eat it you can't be you know I can't be the best possible dad I want to be if I'm going to now disappear and going to camp because if a fight comes up I'll probably go to LA for six months you know or take myself to the other side of the country or something you know to live and be all in like so I like retirement what do you miss the most about that probably just punching people in the face it sounds bizarre but yeah I mean there is that one on one owning owning someone you know in combat which is nice just better in someone and you get to my age and you realise you are you are sort of all in for the boxing you know all my skill sets revolve around boxing and my knowledge revolves around boxing and I did figure I'd have time to maybe get good at something else was I at 30 I can throw myself inside calce 20 years that might be good might learn to play chess or learn to sing and dance I'll do something but the truth is you can't be bothered to do anything I'm going to box I know boxing so now I get to do boxing related stuff like starting a podcast now following your footsteps following your footsteps so we've got the George Groves boxing club podcast which is out like we do a weekly show one goes out every week where we get a boxing person someone a member of the boxing community to come in and talk about a boxing related subject and hopefully it's a little bit different a little bit and it is interesting for the listener in that we sure will have current fighters coming on talking about something in particular but then we'll have we've had trainers all of us shame agree can come on talk about pad work we've had Mike Costello come in and talk about the chaos of ringside being you know on the comms he's the lead commentator for the zone now we've had the zine brothers on talking about what it's like to be a prospect you know and there's a few there's a few that are coming out real soon as well so I think Frank Smith the CEO of match and boxing came out this week he's on talking about money so everyone knows about money who's getting what how much is really there so yeah now this is this is fun this is saying the project that I'm interested in that hopefully that has some legs and will go somewhere and then yeah I'm built on following your foot so what's the hardest thing about being a boxer it's the discipline that then comes with the pressure maybe maybe it's that might be different for a few people but if you want to be the very best version of yourself then there are you can't really cheat in any way so you're missing out on the sometimes important stuff you know the family occasions you might have to miss weddings and christians and funerals and stuff like that you might have to just compromise your relationships you know some friendships because you're not cutting friends out of your life it's just that you're choosing boxing over them so you're not going out on a Friday night or a Saturday night you can't come to their birthday you can't you can't do anything you know they'll be you know family my wife's family they're all amazing cooks every one of them but if they used to invite me around on a Saturday I'm not going because I can't be around that food and that temptation and it took a long time for I think them to understand that my father-in-law had been involved in some of the camps like he was a big help when I first fought for it she would pick the sparring partners up for me and drive them to the gym so then all of a sudden he's hanging out watching the sessions in the gym and he's like newfound respect for me he's like no leave george alone he's not eating that he's not eating the chicken the chicken cheese and rice this week he's going to make way so yeah I think that's probably one of the toughest things boxing getting punched in the face and putting yourself through hell like that's in the gym that's easy like that's all day you seem to have had a career in ten years in the pro game you seem to have been everywhere when it was your fights there was big hype about it like so fair play for one in your world title for one in your belts for setting out everything for any boxer watching or any kid like my young nephew's a boxer you just get hard the day he's got his first damage your fight ah good lad yeah keep your chin down keep your fists tight there you go man I've got big hopes for him but for anybody that's watching it's maybe just struggling in life like a man who's struggled, came back, struggled some more came back even stronger like what advice would you give for anyone who's struggling yeah so I mean to give a quick condensed answer but I have a talk I talk about how to become a champion so it's it's built around these seven key traits of a champion but essentially it is unwavering self-belief which I've spoke about all the way through here so believe in yourself and resilience because it won't always go your way so if you can combine both of them to and they will feed into each other at times you'll get to where you need to go and if you're in a dark place boxing's actually not a bad thing to have a go at you know and James I know you've had your fight you would have done your camp and then all of a sudden you know it's not ideal for kids to get punched in the face of course right but it's one of them sports where if they take to it it's hard to to go be led astray because you have to sacrifice so much for it that there's so much to lose that you end up not really wanting to stray from that and that's I think that's why there's this addictive boxing in particular for all walks of life you know my gym, my amateur gym is in Labrock Grove, Notting Hill an affluent area of west London so you've got riff-raff like me and the few others riff-raff from one side but then you've got some of the richest people in the country the other and they all mix they're all in the same sort of gyms because it's a sport that can really appeal to everyone if you're going to prepare for a fight wow you're not cheating on the mills you're not going out with your mates anymore you are making some sacrifices and making them sacrifices sometimes will give you the confidence and the belief to feel good about yourself so I think I'm not saying start boxing but definitely find a hobby that might require some sacrifices that therefore you can start feeling good about yourself for making that commitment that's a good way of throttling coming up, where can people get your tickets so get on to MacMaker Promotions website and he'll sort you out of a ticket it seems like he'll always squeeze another table in for you so there's always a ticket available yet to sell out completely we're on top we're done, not in them already Carl's hometown which was good, good fun I tried to charm the pants of everyone in there met Carl's mum, she's a lovely lady she was going to dislike it but she didn't Carl's brother Lee's always there but he's good fun it was a great room, nice people very well dressed, which was nice you could tell when people have made a real effort then they come for a good night we're in Leicester tomorrow and we've got Newcastle Scotland, London a bunch of other Bournemouth I think so get on the website find a town or city close to you come down have a lot of things we'll leave all the links in the description for coming on to and telling your story I've enjoyed that from our career, mad stories, mad fights but you came out the other end and now you're here to tell the tale God bless you, I wish you all the best for the future