Hey everybody tonight, we're debating whether or not Islam is true and we are starting right now with Muhammad's opening statement Thanks so much for being with us. Muhammad the floor is all yours Thank you, James for hosting this debate on modern-day debate and hi Matt and hope everyone's doing well So just to begin in the name of God to begin I want to be very clear in stating my position when it comes to faith I'm not a Sunni Muslim which makes up a large portion of the people that claim they are Muslims It is the biggest sect who smear and propagate a religion that doesn't align with what the Quran is teaching at all Religion should reflect back on society and just take a look at the Middle East. In short, I'm not a traditionalist I do not care nor accept any of the so-called hadith or conversations traditions of the prophet Which they claim they can attribute back to the prophet, which is not the case The truth is God told us that for us to be optimal human beings We must avoid lying at all costs and repeating other people's assumptions doesn't make something true As you yourself have witnessed it the books of hadith have been written 200 years after the departure of Muhammad and thus there's a big gap missing and it's a huge telephone game I'm here to represent what the Quran states on what Islam is and what a Muslim is if my opponent would like to answer Any more questions in regards to why I reject the hadith later That that's something that we can do in the Q&A or the open discussion To answer the question whether Islam is true One must understand what Islam or in English willful submission is God states in the Quran that he is reality. Allahu Huwad Haqq. God is reality All the attributes that you have heard of God fits what reality is very well Reality is all encampment. It's infinite. It doesn't sleep. It knows your thoughts It's all dominant if you have an idea or thought that doesn't align with reality Reality will win 10 out of 10 times. You cannot change reality You can only exist within the reality that has been manifested around you God is extremely merciful and his punishment is the worst punishment Which is the truth about reality when reality hits you It hurts and how many times have you hurt another entity that experiences pain But reality lets you slip by unscathed again God to me is reality as per what the Quran states God states in the Quran that everything in the skies in the land has submitted to God That is something that is very true. Everything around you is forcefully enslaved to that reality that is present in front of us And the Quran God addresses individuals and groups by saying oh so-and-so For exact for quick examples. Oh messenger or believers. Oh jews or christians or disbelievers Yet the phrase all muslims or all submitters is not present anywhere in the Quran because again everything Has already given into the reality and cannot go outside it What islam is a real full submission is the acceptance that whatever you put in your pot You will be eating islam is submitting to what god has revealed Is the best ingredients to put in yourself to be the best you can be For yourself for your society and for the rest of the world in the humanity The Quran teaches you how to think how to handle yourself in various situations And how to react to what other people whatever thoughts that seem to come out of nowhere The Quran teaches you to filter what is beneficial and what will harm you whether right away or in the long run As a human it is very hard to see the consequences of our actions in the very long run In fact, what I listed is the goal for any person who is striving to achieve If you choose to be lazy all day and sit and do nothing reality said that you get nothing The proof is in the reality The self-help book industry was worth 10.5 billion in 2020 the behavior therapy enterprise is close to 16 billion There are countless videos online teaching you the best mentality or mind state or tricks to achieve a more meaningful life And everyone here is to have a more meaningful life There are characteristics and habits that are admired while others that are frowned upon and hated The reality is found anywhere in the world. This reality is found anywhere in the world People like others to be honest or just they admire those that work hard and keep up a light and innocent demeanor Yet is generally accepted They do not like to be lied to or bullied out of their right or oppressed Nor do people like to be putting that put down in condescending manners Furthermore, one does not need to have the Quran to become a good successful and respected human being This can be achieved through trial and error and self-reflection as many people have The truth is the truth and that's evident.  That is a truth And if you are a person that doesn't value cleanliness, it speaks volume about who you are generally A person that isn't going to be accepted in society easily when it comes to reviews of places One of the most discussed things is cleanliness Other than cleanliness God in the Quran states that he loves those who are aware Those who strive to do good things the patient and trustworthy My opponent who has a small part of God loves all those values without having the Quran and that's reality God in the Quran states that he does not like corruption transgressors in gratitude treachery boastful people excessive people in wastefulness Which again all of these is humans We do not like dealing with and when we deal with such characteristics is generally accepted for them to be labeled as Evil or bad But as stated we reach these conclusions without the Quran as we Already have as an international community However, it has been a bumpy road and people had to learn from a lot of mistakes And yet they are not able to achieve the maximum The issue is that some mistakes and errors can affect us for a very long time Or downright just ruined the life of some people with very low chance of recovery A wise person should learn from the mistakes of others or the strategy of winners Out of the mercy of the Lord. He sent us a book Which is a shortcut to achieving a satisfactory life Predominantly in your mental and then secondary in the physical You find a meaningful existence built on serving the greater purpose built on love truth and dedication Despite being outnumbered by people who self serve and make the world a terrible place the Quran promotes a honest and Promotes honesty and to stand up for the truth no matter what even against your own parents if you have to Because society will only thrive with the truth It explains that you are part of the world and you are responsible for the earth because god because you have been favored Over all creatures that are on earth But that you will be leaving the world to also go build in another world Right now it is your responsibility to take care of the world and that can only be achieved by honest work This is what islam teaches Feed who needs to be fed healthy animals are not abusing take care of the plants and the oceans clean what needs to be cleaned And fixed what needs to be fixed Find ways to scale the operation of humanity With what the reality is exposing to us an information that helps us through science technology and other fields The reality is that whatever you do you will answer for it because all your inputs have a chain reaction and a predetermined output Which you do not know how far it will go or ripple through the universe One healthy meal and some kind words to a travel traveler can resolve for that traveler to be able to reach His home where he raises children that change the world you helped in that process You are part of something beneficial for the world You should strive to be part as many to be part as many chains that you will believe will be beneficial for humanity It will give you a feeling of actual fulfillment But the opposite is there too. So watch out as an extreme example If you murder somebody you cut the chain of so many people that can come Strive experience love have a part of this world and have a meaningful life And enjoy what humanity should be striving towards And a minor example is that if you insult a sensitive person who ends up staying in their bed all day Then he misses all their opportunities for them to make a world a better place for that day You cause that pain the quran states that you will answer for it God states in the quran that you have a duty towards your parents your relatives to the hungry to the sick The homelessness the travelers the prisoners the orphans your neighbors God tells you to forgive those that transgress against you because you have a better chance of going back to stability And a peaceful setting where we can all grow The reality also dictates that because human have ultimately the free choice of deciding Whether to work towards the future or just to become self-indulgent over time when things are comfortable People turn to becoming self-serving and they forget the objective and corruption will become rampant and living conditions become difficult That's the truth about humans God is warning us of those conditions that we ourselves cause by not accepting the objective reality that's in front of us Which is whatever you put in the pot you will be eating quite simply Islam is teaching you the right morals attitude and work that you need to have It is expressing to you the world is full of opportunities and find one to serve our real reality And not the fake illusions that society likes to build up with falsehood and lies Islam is telling you that since you have been created you will live forever And everything you do now is affecting the futures in ways you do not know So be sincere in your striving Islam is true because it only produces the best version of you Possible that has the ability to outlive their time on earth As long as you have the courage to shed the falsehood from what you have heard about mainstream Islam And other falsehoods that people like to associate to reality, which is not sociable The further you are from reality and the more twisted your worldview is The more torture and pain you cast to yourself in your mind The best examples of muslims or people who willfully submitted That they need to put the best inputs in the world in the name of god our reality are adam Noah, abraham, israel, isaac, ismael Moses, jesus, mary, jacom, job, law, and mohammed and many others who their names still circulate today Peace upon them all Because they strive to be the best humans they can be their ripples are still felt today And they are off to remember for their great morals and mentality not for their businesses nor their wealth or horses and cards All of what is beneficial in self-help books or what you all what would make society strive And all the ingredients required for you to achieve internal peace The Quran has them covered and explains in the best details The awareness of judgment day and that you will be answering for all inputs keeps both you and all of humans in check But if that awareness is non-existent in society crumbles Thank you very much and uh looking forward to the rest of the debate Thank you very much for that opening mohammed We want to let you know folks if it's your first time here at modern day debate We are a neutral platform hosting debates on science religion and politics I'm your host james and we hope you feel welcome no matter what walk of life you're from christian muslim atheist You name it We're glad that you're here hit that subscribe button as we have many more debates coming up with that We'll kick it over to matt for his opening as well. Thanks for being with us matt Thank you for having me and thank you to uh mohammed for Suggesting this debate the debate is supposed to be is islam true Which i think this is the fifth such debate that i've had with the muslim apologists And unlike most of the other debates on this particular subject my opponent today sent me an email describing his positions And i may end up having to call him mo at some point which we've agreed upon just so there's not confusion between him and The prophet as the founder of islam, but As he mentioned he rejects all of the hadith he relies on reason and subjective understanding was what was he was Mentioning to me in the email. He accepts the objective truth of the koran I don't know what that means necessarily but we can get into that. Uh, he accepts evolution He views his particular denomination as more analogous to unitarian than catholic cool Whatever, uh, and we're not focused on the prophet because that's not what the koran's focused on and I can understand why His religion is universal international not tied to specific understandings of arabic words and um, you know, he gave me definitions islam is submission religion is the law Which he said is everything is lawful to you except for that which is limited to you Which is sorry. It's a tautology. It's useless. That's like saying everything's good except for what's not good Um, and this includes the limits you put on yourself Uh worship is better described as servitude and the religion is about guidance and not structure The more you get away from falsehood and idolization and addictions the closer you are to the truth Except that's not true truth is that which comports with reality and addiction is a part of it and people idolize things And they may still understand Truth and speak the truth and know the truth Um, but his final thing was that god is reality, which you heard in his opening I haven't heard that from a muslim before and I find that uh, interesting We'll see where it goes. So in a debate about is islam true given those definitions What are we saying? Are we saying since islam is submission? Does that mean we're saying is submission true? Well, no Submission is just a noun. It's not a statement with a truth value that can be assessed So to say islam is true or submission is true is nonsense We have to be talking about the religion of islam the law, but that law consists of Whatever he feels like including that's good and whatever restrictions he puts on himself as well So what we need and this is critical Is a specific list of tenets That are the religion slash law slash doctrines And then those particular tenets must be defended and shown to be true Before we can claim that islam is true That is all that matters for this debate tonight whether or not you find something Nice or agreeable or if you find some tenet of islam, uh, you think is wonderful, etc Has he done that in his opening? I don't know because I wrote this ahead of time. Uh, unfortunately My opponent has kind of set this up as a sort of impossible task I think because if we're not going to talk about scientific claims as we have in several previous debates on the subject of islam That's a nice departure But now you don't have anything really of a substance to get to and by the way Whatever the Quran got right In addition to the things that it got wrong on scientific discoveries That there's no demonstration that that's because of a connection to a god There's not supposed to be any appeals to the founder of islam being a prophet or the prophet Being a good person which avoids all the clear evidence that he wasn't a good person and that We lack evidence to support him being a prophet or that there anyone could be a prophet And that's key because if god is just reality Then how can there be a prophet reality merely is it's not a thinking agent. It's not an actor We have no justification for thinking of reality As an agent with desires Offering guidance and having profits though it can certainly have admirers. I'm a fan of reality I just don't see any value in suggesting that reality is god And even if I were to look at and revere reality as a god, that doesn't mean that reality has any intent Moreover if I were to accept that reality is god That not only wouldn't lead me to islam. It wouldn't lead me to any religion with any sort of personal deity Is is reality personal? No Did it create itself? I don't know. Did it always exist? Is it perfect? Does it have desires? I have no idea, but it certainly doesn't seem so But the Quran or the recital Claims that it was revealed by Allah and that Allah will protect it sir 15 9 It's nonsensical to claim a recitation without a reciter without an agent reciter I've seen no evidence that reality can or does recite anything I've seen no evidence that reality has an angel Gabriel to recite anything for it It ties directly to Abraham whose god was clearly not merely reality It supposedly explains everything sir 16 89 yet It doesn't as we've discovered new things since then and new problems that it can't hope to address Without a massive amount of adding to the text from other sources If there is a god who inspired or dictated the Quran then that god is either Then the Quran is either perfect and incapable of error Or it isn't now. I don't know if my opponent tonight holds the view that the Quran is perfect We can talk about that and try to find out But there's many that do and there's many that hold that that god whether it's equal to reality or not is in some way perfect and the Quran though Not only contains errors Like getting Mary and Miriam confused But it also contains an obvious glaring error Which ironically exists in its attempt to pretend that it is without error And serve 482 it says will they not then ponder on the Quran If had been from other than Allah, they would have found therein much incongruity This is a logical fallacy And it could not have come from the mind of a perfect god or any being who understands the significance of logical reasoning fallacies Which by the way, I don't think reality has any understanding of logical reasoning or fallacies It could come from the mind of a human though, and I certainly agree that it could come from someone who has a very keen sense of reality as long as they aren't particularly knowledgeable about reason 482 is a fallacy It's possible for someone to write a text that contains no errors no contradictions and no incongruities Without that text being inspired by or dictated by a god I can do it right now And anyone could improve the Quran by correcting any of its errors including the one here in surah 482 For example, let me rewrite it now Will they not then ponder the Quran if it had been from other than Allah one might wrongly expect it to be full of incongruity But this expectation is unreasonable the truth of the recital isn't in its perceived perfection But it in its concordance with the facts of reality. So you're welcome Muslims. I've just improved your Quran Don't feel too bad about it. I did the same thing with the bible years ago I proved that I could write a better book than the bible by rewriting it word for word Reversing its position on slavery and it would by definition be a better book What's the fallacy? I'm hearing people ask. Well, if you put it in so logistic form It's a lot easier to spot especially if you start to change the terms and so premise one If it's from Allah, it will not have imperfections premise to the Quran has no imperfections Conclusion therefore the Quran is from Allah But that's like saying if it's raining the sidewalk will be wet The sidewalk is wet Therefore it's raining the fallacy is called affirming the consequence because the sidewalk might be wet Even if it's not raining maybe a sprinkler had been running and the Quran might be without imperfection Even if it's not from Allah But it's not without imperfection This single verse is the most ironic example But hardly the only one But that doesn't matter as much tonight because i'm not sure that Muhammad thinks god or reality is perfect or that inspired the recital or that it's Reasonable at all So the question that matters is what are the specific tenets that he believes are true And what is the methodology to demonstrate that they are true? Because he likes reason and remember from the email subjective understanding Which is noted is just a way of setting up a scenario so that if you can't demonstrate your version to be true Via reason and evidence you can still claim it to be true in your subjective understanding Fortunately though with no clear tenets no agent god or religion that includes whatever you like a flawed book That serves as the source of religion and no demonstration of a method to tie his subjective understanding to reality That means my work here is done With no clear islam to investigate no reasonable person could ever conclude that islam is true But i'm interested in whether he has reasonable responses to these objections Or if we find that it's all just a matter of subjective understanding If nothing else we'll get to hear how someone who may be viewed as more of an apostate than me Can defend the vague and ill defined and still call it islam and claim that it's true But claiming that it's true is not the same as demonstrating that it's true. Thank you Thanks for that opening matt and with that folks we're going to go into the open dialogue This would be about 55 minutes or so then we'll have q&a at the end So if you happen to have a question fired into the old live chat tag me with at modern day debate Or if you use the super chat those will go to the top of the list And if you didn't know this modern day debate is available via podcast So if you haven't looked us up on your favorite podcast app yet You really should it's a hundred percent ad free You can listen to podcasts anywhere you are no matter how bad your service is So listen to debates on the go by finding modern day debate on your favorite podcast that thanks very much gentlemen The floor is all yours Appreciate the opening statement matt. Uh, just wanted to ask you a question in regards Well, let me first answer the question and i want to turn it back to you You said that what is a profit? So god defines and look for an a profit You said that I didn't give anything to define what a profit is and you did ask the question What is a profit at this point? Or I didn't say either of those no, no, sorry In your opening statement, you said that god has sent profits But if the reality is complete then why is he sending profits? I think that's what's something that you'll live to I didn't say that in my opening. I didn't ask What is a profit? Um, I don't know what Sorry, I don't think verbatim you didn't ask that but this is what I understood like a as a summary of One of the statements that you were saying when you were talking about the profit Okay, uh, I don't think anything like that was in my opening but go ahead. You ask whatever you want Uh, sorry at the beginning of your statement or like your opening statement You were saying that I didn't allude to anything about the profits and that if reality Sorry, you were talking about god and that why would god send a profit? I think was something along no what I said was in your email that you Acknowledge that you weren't going to be focused on focused on the profit because the koran isn't focused on the profit And what I said about um, I didn't say why would god send a profit? I was talking about if god is reality I don't see any justification for how reality could send a profit or how reality could do anything like that Okay, so I was understanding that point as you like why would reality or how could reality send a profit? well because you're as you said you're you're trying to disconnect from the like The the the objective of why we are in this reality Which is very difficult for us to deduce because it is something that maybe is a little bit higher for us as As our understandings of human beings, but we we obviously each of one of us is giving ourselves a self-purpose, right? I'm not relating that back to god, but I'm saying that we as humanity we start to differ when we're supposed to be a single unit like it our Communities our our us as a creature We would be able to expand and be a better human like a better Society if we came together as a one unit So this is why people like profits come is just so that god sends them instructions to help the people what they differ in So that they can come back and strive to drive to become a single community again Okay, I don't see how that has anything to do with tenets of islam or how it's true Nor does it have anything to do with what I was addressing. I understand that there are people Who are going to be viewed as leaders to guide us toward what they see as a perceived goal? But that doesn't mean that they are profits from a god You'd need a way to demonstrate that they are in fact profits from a god. You don't get to get to assume that Well the the the reason why people did claim that they were profits and people did believe them Is because they came with a clear authority. So the clear authority is that they were able to speak Very well on what the truth is what the reality is and some of them did come with supernatural in But me and you didn't witness those so I'm not going to allude to this I do believe in matters of faith That those did occur, but for you I understand that this is also this is also addressing a question I didn't ask I didn't ask why people believe them, but you talk about perceived authority I don't recognize this authority and I don't see that you've demonstrated any authority But but you're asking about the leadership You said that there's people that ascend to our leaders I'm saying that the authority that comes to them is what makes them a leader It's it's like it's very well nowadays is just because there's more physical power back then the leader kind of Became a leader because people trusted him people gave him That has nothing to do Is it possible that there were people who trusted false leaders that aren't speaking the truth? Yes, that is okay So so then whether or not they're a leader and whether or not people believe them is irrelevant to whether or not It's true. So let's try and stick with things that demonstrate truth not things that are irrelevant to truth Okay, so when you're saying one thing that you did make a mistake is you did say that Muhammad is the founder of Islam where Islam existed before Muhammad. This is the thing that I'm sure That's that's completely fair There is a context in which people would view outsiders in particular would view Muhammad as a founder of this But from within there it would be viewed as that Allah is the founder and that it was recited Via Gabriel to Muhammad. I don't know if you believe any of that but Sure, okay So the point that I'm making is you're going back to what people have done after the message came of Muhammad And then they hijacked the term Islam and labeled to that But when I'm saying that Islam existed by Prior to Prophet Muhammad So the notion or the concept of what Islam is is something that was present in the world And it's something that was existing that the people at the time of Prophet Muhammad Understood just like the people before Prophet Muhammad also understood. So Islam is not Islam is not based on just the Quran. So Islam exists outside of the Quran is what I'm trying to explain So you were saying and and none of that matters because the subject to night's bait is whether or not it's true Not whether or not some concept that you want to identify as Islam Existed prior to the Quran. That's irrelevant to whether or not it's true But now that goes back to my opening statement of what Islam is Islam is something as it's very simple because you are living it God did say that everything in the world in the skies in the land have already Islam and they already submit it to God Which you just you just once again said what God said But you haven't demonstrated that there is a God or that God has ever said anything You're just saying what you believe if we're going to have a discussion about whether or not Islam is true You don't get to say God said this you get until you demonstrate that in fact God did say something Okay, but uh, so the point that I was trying to make is yes You're you're going back to saying trying to put it attach it to God directly But let me first demonstrate on how what Islam is right and then we can come back to where these people are getting These inspirations to say that this is from God Because as I explained to you which you quickly put to the side and you said it's not possible But you don't you don't really give me a reason or something that breaks from our understanding of what people call as God Right like that the attributes of what we Understand as God is fitting reality. So no it doesn't no it doesn't you asserted that in there Does reality you asserted during your opening? um a number of things which are simply false and not true to reality Yeah, that That reality has the attributes you said the reality has the attributes of God that reality is infinite You don't know that that reality knows your thoughts. You have no you haven't justified that Wait, how do you how can you show that reality knows my thoughts? Are you part of reality? Yeah, but that's a part of reality is not reality Just like my fingernail doesn't know my thoughts a part of something isn't the whole that's a logical fallacy It is the fallacy of composition It's not fallacy of composition when yes, it is part of reality Therefore if you are thinking in reality reality is aware of it because that no, I'm sorry, but that's not true because It's it's simply a fallacy of composition just like my fingernail is a part of me But my fingernail does not know what I know So wait, you are dominant over reality at that point because you don't like you thinking it doesn't it doesn't become part of reality that reality is not uh like Reality has not encapsulated that thought for that thought to be true Like you understand what you're doing like you're saying that reality does not know the true thought No, I'm saying you haven't demonstrated if you're going to assert that reality knows my thoughts besides just me knowing my thoughts You have to actually demonstrate that but you also said that God told us that for us to be optimal We should avoid lying. When did God tell us that? God God in the Quran clearly states that that's not a demonstration. How do you demonstrate that God told us anything? Well, you see the that's what I'm trying to explain So if people are alluding are not alluding aligning with the reality, right and they're working with the uh, sort of like um The collective of what we're understanding the truth and the reality God works through them This is this is you being part of it. So yes, it wasn't God himself speaking the Quran But God, how do you know that? But you're saying God didn't speak out of prophet Muhammad because it came out of prophet Muhammad So God used prophet Muhammad's mouth and voice to speak these words So so God didn't dictate the Quran to prophet Muhammad. Yes, he did He so God God dictated the Quran through product through Gabriel to prophet Muhammad Correct. He gave him the message so then there shouldn't be any imperfection, right? Okay, so now we're going to the imperfection I was going to answer your question in regards to like The the question about prophet Muhammad being the founder of Islam Going back to what Islam is and then showing you how it attaches to reality because Everything that is what is taught in Islam prior to prophet Muhammad still attaches to reality But when you're going to come down to the question in regards of the Quran is error-free The confusion of Mary has there's there's many many conversations that occurred where it is alluding to the to to still Version Mary But the disconnect is that God has said the words in a way So that is ambiguous for people to to that want to find an error they find an error because it's it's still a I pointed out a fallacy. I did I barely mentioned to Mary in Miriam. Why aren't you going with the obvious fallacy? For a logical it's like you don't understand or don't know what logical fallacies are There's the fallacy of composition that just because my brain knows something about my thoughts doesn't mean my fingernails And just because my fingernail is hard doesn't mean that my thoughts are hard It doesn't go you can't expand the properties either direction But in 482 it specifically commits the fallacy Of affirming the consequence. Why don't you address that? But Matt I was trying to get done with with Mary and I was gonna I mentioned it. I mentioned it in passing. It's like I didn't I didn't I think but you that the people watching this right now Have no idea what I meant or what you meant or what anybody means by the confusion over Mary and Miriam I test that aside because that was something we weren't going to actually just address but go ahead But you mentioning it means that this is an error that's in the Quran that I address now when we're going to talk about 482 When god is saying do they not ponder? On the Quran by this point. He's putting it down into what humanity is It's not what god is god isn't himself is not saying that like he's not making an assertion in the point that It is from god god has no contradictions Therefore this book has no contradictions or let me uh, the The question yeah, so it's the here when he brought it down to the To the mind of humanity if someone is going to preach over 10 years and it is coming directly from him How many contradictions will that person come through that's it You're taking it as if you're reading it from the book on one day It came it was written down as you said which you did do a strawman fallacy because god didn't just give you two reasons Why that's a fucking lie. That is a lie. There is no strawman fallacy here I read the I was talking about a different point, but you didn't interrupt me You were saying that if a book yeah, and I'll keep interrupting too, especially if you're going to accuse me of a strawman fallacy I keep bringing up fallacies and you've done nothing to reabilitate them And now you want to accuse me of a strawman present the strawman fallacy that you're accusing me of right now Okay, you can Take it down a notch.    And that it has no contradictions and that some and no other book can be written from it And therefore that it's the other books can have that same features at that point That was I apologize a strawman because God gave a lot more reasons why it is from God So that's that's where I saw that you could have which you did do a strawman fallacy on why God gave us a proof that it's from God That's all there's no strawman fallacy there. There's no strawman fallacy there I presented what it says and I put it in syllogistic form something that you seem Unwilling to actually do so we'll leave it to everybody else to determine whether or not I actually committed to strawman or whether you're avoiding fallacies. How do you reconcile? That 482 God also said yeah, because we're still at that point God also said that this book is confirming the books before it and this is why it's also another reason Which has nothing to do with what it says in 482 I'm not talking about 482. I'm talking about strawman fallacy. I am I presented a fallacy in the Quran God in 482 is talking from the perspective of humanity not from God. It's a fallacy It's not a fallacy. It is absolutely a fallacy. It is affirming the consequence It is affirming the consequence. I I defined it I put it in structure and I put it in syllogistic form the fact that it's in conversational form Where you want to tap dance and talk about how it's addressing the books that came before or whatever else is irrelevant Matt, but that's not what I said I'm talking about the strawman fallacy that you did on why it's a proof from God That's different when it comes to 482 You're attaching it from the site of God where I God is talking about the site of humanity So it's humans themselves cannot produce a book like this over the span of however long it was Is it possible is it possible is it possible for there to be a book? That is not inspired by a god, which does not contain incongruities So It is possible. Thank you books one second But let me let me ask you was a yes or no question. It doesn't require anything other than yes, it's possible You know I don't respect you're asking me a question. Let me ask you a question back I don't oh my god. Go ahead So yes, it is possible for a book to not have contradictions It's impossible for a human to keep speaking about the same topic for 16 to 20 years to 10 years However long the period was okay and not have contradictions with what he's saying because matt if I review all your videos So you're saying it's not possible for anyone to speak on a subject for many years and not have incongruities It's not possible for humanity. No for a human being to stay talking about a subject and not contradict himself It's not possible. And this is a different presentation. You're wrong You're wrong But that's all right because you're just going to keep asserting stuff as true without demonstrating it Well to you anything that does align with reality and truth is just an assertion because you want empirical evidence For something that's very no sir and stop pretending that you're actually going to be addressing My model of the world at all. We're here to address yours, but you haven't presented anything Do you have you haven't given us a mechanism? You've barely done anything definition wise and when I point out a fallacy You just accuse me of a straw man and then pretend that it's not a fallacy when it is It's the fallacy of affirming the consequence. Well one verse. It's obvious anybody What one verse one verse in the Quran God says that the people that do Align with a false reality.  I know you don't but matt what I'm trying to say Is that nobody should it's garbage. You didn't listen to me. That's the problem. You didn't listen to me The straw man fallacy is not about 482 I listen to you and I listen to your opening and when you started talking after my opening It was very clear to everybody that you didn't actually listen to it and understand what I was saying So if you're going to keep accusing me of not listening to you um That's not going to go very well because I took copious notes and wrote down the things that you said that were false And when I'm sitting here trying to get you to address An actual fallacy because you think that god inspired or god Recited through gabriel to muhammad a book that is without Imperfections and I pointed to a fallacy you have no way to rehabilitate that But when I addressed the fallacy and I also uh, I I also showed a fallacy with you with the straw man You thought I was talking about a straw man 482, which is not the case. No, I didn't This is you are incapable of listening I did not think that you were saying that there was a straw man in 482 You accused me of saying there was you accused me of committing a straw man Yes, and then you couldn't present one I did present one. No, sir. You did not present one And this is this is anyway continue go ahead with whatever you whatever you'd like to address This is how it goes with people that just keep denying everything because when I did present the straw man to you You went back to 48 482. So you don't address it So I'm going to keep going back to 482 until you Acknowledge that it's fallacious or show that it's not it's not because god is talking from the eyes of humanity Not from the eyes of god while you attached it to god I'm sorry, sir But a logical argument isn't from the eyes of anybody It is factual statements premises that lead to conclusions It is not different from god's perspective than it is from human's perspective If god's perspective is different from logic than god is illogical You don't understand the foundations of logic if you're saying that to avoid a fallacy God's talking about it from human's perspective instead of god's perspective.  That's the failure in one of your premises Humans in over a long period of time are a contradictory being not god not reality rally reality doesn't contradict itself I find it hilarious That your point is that it can't contain an imperfection and you're arguing for why it does contain an imperfection No, no the imperfection is what you are understanding. That's okay. So and that will answer a different question cool story Thanks, bro. Do you want me to text it? You can read it later if you want I don't need to read it later. I I've wasted enough time on ridiculous things move on to the next thing Okay, so in which was a nice sit way because we were talking about a subjective manner of the of the Quran So me reading a verses with a An honest mind an open mind I can understand certain things from the Quran that will lead me into a path for me to be a doctor While someone else will read the same verses that they would end up being a lawyer And these verses guide humanity in different ways. That's the subjective nature of the Quran But when it comes to the objective reality is the moral values that I list which you don't want to touch because you're saying Oh, that's that's just nothing but that's literally what the Quran is here for That's the reason why prophet Muhammad Dominated over all other mentalities because his mindset was the best mindset at the time and it still dominates Why because of these concepts that are in the Quran to be fair to be honest to to to discuss the things that That that that are beneficial, but I guess those topics you don't want to talk about Sorry, was there a question or something in there because once again You are making a whole bunch of assertions, but you haven't given us anything to demonstrate That islam is true or why islam is true during your opening you included a bunch of things that simply aren't true God is reality and the features of reality match up with god Reality allows for good or evil reality doesn't present any punishment reality doesn't present any justice The truth is that people get away with things you said if you choose to be lazy all day reality says you get nothing That's not true.  That's worth producing Society a reality isn't fair. There are people who get what they don't deserve. That's just the way it goes Oh, everyone values cleanliness, but everybody doesn't have the same definition of cleanliness and not everybody necessarily values Values cleanliness the way you want to pretend that it does The the notion that reality Is like a god It would be to say that reality is capricious and does not care Does not impose any sort of justice does not impose any sort of strictures Allows people to be whatever they want and is functionally identical To a god not existing Okay, so when you're saying that reality is capricious that it does not have justice Actually reality is very just in a sense where that what you strive for is what you get So the person no sir. Yeah, it is what you strive for is what how many people strive to be wealthy and don't achieve it You don't let me it's not this all I let you speak.  No, that's not what I'm suggesting There you go I'm saying that when I'm saying what people strive they get what they strive for You just said that they don't you just you are literally contradicting yourself one sentence after the other When people strive they get what they earned Is that better for you? No, they don't get what they earned Yeah, they did because of oh no, they don't others input it will get cancer that they didn't strive for because People get wrongly convicted of crimes people get wrongly convicted of crimes and they get away with crimes. Don't they Matt, you're being overly technical. Don't they you're being overly don't they when you don't understand That is a reality. But why don't they don't they Why did that happen? Don't they because of the don't they decisions I can do this all night I know it's because you like to be childish as I know it's because I like to call out people who are not willing to address Honestly, what has been said Matt contradicts himself between one sentence and the other if you say that people get what they do people get away with Crimes I think In case there's just in case there's a misunderstanding because I I think there's in the chat. There's two different ways that some people are interpreting this One it seems that some are interpreting it as in it's a universal rule Muhammad or in other cases. They're saying Are you saying that it's it's just a general principle When I'm saying what people Get what they earn while they're striving it's including with everybody else's inputs It's almost like what it is a science is because of everybody else's inputs is the result But as long as you're striving in that direction Whatever that path is getting is already predetermined So what I'm trying to explain to you and it's a very simple concept Is that the ingredients that you put in the pots is what you're going to be eating on a mental point of view Which is what islam is doing the physical is out of your out of your touch The reason why people are born for cancer It's because of the errors that the people came before them did for example I'm just getting giving you a single example. But what's going I hate to interrupt but just going back to the This one might bring where there was maybe a misunderstanding is And what you just said I was trying to listen as carefully as possible is that I think that some are still thinking that there are a lot of counter examples to the idea that You get what you earn and so I think that there's still confusion in the chat where people are wondering If you mean it as like a general principle like 75 5% of the time 100% of the time 51% of the time To understand Is that the way I understood it and this is like a superficial understanding from me Because my my attention was split with the chat looking for questions is Matt was offering counter examples of cases that You don't get what you deserve or you you don't get what you earn Uh, something to that wording and that's the kind of going back to that There's I think people are wondering Correct. So when I'm saying you get what you earn Is also including with everybody else's influences and input. So yes, it is always true You're doing your input and then there's other people's inputs And then whatever happens out in the end is what you deserve because of everybody's input This is what you earned. I'm not saying that it's always fair It's not always going to be what you want it to be but it's that's how reality is It's you strive towards something and people put their Influences and then the end result is out of your hands, but you are getting what you're working towards. This is like, okay Just in terms though just to be sure I understand so it sounds like you're willing to Take the case the position that like in all cases and I think that your point maybe is still You're maybe trying to draw attention to like the causal input from everybody around you in terms of like your effort or what you earn But I think that prior to getting to that point Matt was saying Well, wait, like I don't accept this as a universal and it sounds like you were just willing to Kind of bait the bullet and try to defend that. It's like a universal. Okay, like always and that's where I think Matt is saying like it's totally not always Even though I'll give you a chance to response So from what I understood from that what he Understood from what I said, I don't know. This is just an assumption Is that when I said that every human has what they earn? So it's like if someone wants to be a doctor so he works hard and becomes a doctor That's what I think he understood from me or if somebody is trying to be wealthy He works and then he becomes wealthy. That's not the point that I was making If that's what you guys are perceiving the point that I was making is that if you strive towards something And if the steps are there you get what you got But if other people influence is that step there is a result that's already predetermined and you still strive in that direction That's what I'm saying. So it's like whatever you're putting in the pie. You're gonna be eating I hope that makes sense. I guess let's say For the sake of argument like granting what you were saying another question that Some have had and maybe matt can if you want to pick up from here is that and maybe actually matt You maybe know the answer. So if I missed it even if we granted this What you just said It's hard for me to tie it back to islam Therefore is true or even just more probable. I can't under I don't understand how those are related So what I'm saying is that uh, whatever you're putting Into your life as values and ways that you are Living your life. There is a result that is an expected result Islam is telling you the best ingredients so that you have a very good result and when whatever the Outside of whatever the actual physical result is. So it's giving you the mentality to handle that anything that is thrown at you so To go back to the point that the human has whatever he's sorry like he's like striving towards is that um If you are striving to find for example a meaningful life You need to put the ingredients to get that meaningful life You might not get the life that you expected or the life that you wanted But internally in your mind you you can't achieve that person to a purpose So this is why i'm attaching it back to islam is the ingredients that you put is what you become So you also you you also said that whatever you strive for is predetermined and that people get cancer because of people What people before them did so, you know, you can contradict yourself all day by saying you get what you strive for But only if you do it right and it may not be what you expected But all of those are useless tautologies. Just like when you previously had implied that The law is whatever the law is the notion that so reality Does not in any way Seem to give people what it is that they strive for you can have the best intentions and the best ingredients and you can get hit by a bus You can do everything right and get terminal cancer Before you get a chance to achieve whatever it is that you're striving for There's no guarantee and no likelihood and no way to predict whether or not you're going to get what you strive for What we do know is that also some people without even striving for it seem to be beneficiaries of huge amounts of privilege and other things Either they inherited it from other people and did nothing to deserve it on their own What the point was is that you suggest that god Has the characteristics of reality and the characteristics of reality Do not stand up to what you would like to to claim god has reality There's no demonstration that reality is a thinking agent that it has any desires or goals There's no demonstration that reality has any sense of justice There's no demonstration that reality can actually impose justice and punish people or reward people In a way that is just rather than capricious And when you talk about this even after james has Wandered around to try to find every way to rehabilitate this all you've really said is Whatever is going to happen is going to happen And nothing about whether or not islam is true, but just that you find islam Teaches you how to cope with that or how to seek the things that you think are best But you haven't demonstrated they're the best you haven't demonstrated that god Is consistent with the features of reality or that reality is consistent with the features of god None of that we're still on this debate of is islam true And we haven't even begin to demonstrate anything that would demonstrate is true Just that you like it and you can Interpret things in such a way that you think it's consistent with reality, but reality doesn't care about us Okay, but that's an assertion about point it is and and and I fully and I can give you Countless examples that would seem to support the notion that reality Does not have agency that seems to care about us the fact that two year olds or one year olds Die from all sorts of horrible disease or that a bus comes along that isn't That isn't consistent with the notion that some that reality is caring for someone The fact that people get away with crimes that they shouldn't get away with if there was justice And this is why religions including islam make up a sense of justice that happens in some sort of afterlife You asserted that god states That we're or the because we're created we're going to live forever You haven't demonstrated that we're going to live forever There's no evidence that we're going to live forever and the facts of reality don't suggest that we're going to live forever The facts of reality suggest that we are going to cease to exist How do you demonstrate that reality says we're going to live forever? Okay, so I can answer the points that you talked about prior Do you want me to answer the point that you did you said right here? I don't know the last one's kind of a big one, but you can address whatever you want But just yeah, so okay So the the reason why like say for example someone's hit with a bus or the terminal cancer That is also the summation of all other Variables and inputs of everybody else. It's not just your inputs. So this is why these events occur if someone's hit by a bus Yeah, the the driver is involved in that incident the driver has decisions all his life let him up to that point Just like your decisions let you up to that point So what about a bolt of electricity that that what about a lightning bolt comes down and strikes you on the head How's that other result of anybody else's actions? But again, you could use What you understand from science that you were at a time where the environment was in that position for you to be there And all your actions let you up to be standing there But yes, that that is that is the reality of what happened to you This is what I'm not saying that this is what you earned But this is what occurred to you and if if you're dead you're dead at that point And now which brings me back to the question that you are here forever Okay, so for me is the the objective reality that I find in the Quran So it's like I say for example Let's just summarize the Quran with 10 verses If I'm seeing that eight of them are reflecting to the reality in the inputs that I'm putting It's telling me the outputs that I should expect and I could find it and it's and it's okay So the Quran is not like physical input output. It's me speaking in a certain way. This is the reaction you're going to get if I'm seeing a a concise like Methodology of how to handle myself from eight out of ten verses and it's all accurate at this point It's for me safe for me to assume that the other two points that I can still not Evidently see or or or like a witness yet that they will also be true. No, sir That's a fallacy that that is absolutely fallacious There could be eight statements that were true and two that were false Matt, I understand that that is a possibility, right? Yes, it's a fallacy for you to conclude that you can trust the other two that is a fallacy undeniable Un unresolvable the fact that you might be convinced of it Is independent from the fact that it is a fallacy, which means you cannot assert that it is reasonable to conclude that But there's a track record. So there's a credit doesn't matter It is it does matter when it comes to it does not mean that you so No, I'm sorry But it's a logical fallacy and a fallacy doesn't mean that it's false It means that you cannot reasonably conclude that it's true That is the problem with fallacies and this is the problem with your line of reasoning Which also you haven't demonstrated the eight things are correct You haven't demonstrated anything in Islam that's true And you haven't answered the thing about a lightning bolt and how that's related To an action that somebody else took because your first example was well, you know when when cancer happens You get hit by a bus. That's the result of a whole bunch of other people's decisions. Yes It is but if I'm walking down the street and I get struck by lightning Oh, well, that's just the way, you know, you happen to be in that place at that time and that means that's what happened to you Yes, that's why we say reality is capricious and does not care about us There's no demonstration that reality gives a crap about us, which is why people get struck by lightning and die Actually reality does show that it does give Us preference over a lot of other creatures. So there is some there is some roles to us and there are benefits Is there a harsh side to reality? Of course, there is that is something that we are dealing with and that's where we're coping But there is a reason for this Is there a harsh side to god? What is there a harsh side to god can god just is there is there a Of course, there is going to help.  I just asked a question Is there a side of god that will arbitrarily strike you dead without you having done something? No, because he's not oppressed and explain a lightning bolt killing someone Matt, you're explaining of the last five seconds of a person's life But it's you're ignoring the only part of a person's life that matters in this example, which is how they died You're simultaneously saying that god has the characteristics of reality and that god will will strike you down Or you know that reality will strike you down for not doing anything But the god won't But what i'm trying to explain is that person that got struck by the lightning I would like to know his thoughts and how he lived his life prior Because it'd be really cool if you knew those thoughts But you don't and that means that your connection between god and reality is completely a fiction That you've invented because you don't know what that person's thoughts was and and you're and and you're sitting you're trying you're sitting You're trying to suggest that it's just for someone to be struck down with by lightning It is just for that person to be struck down by lightning because because I know you're this is my case It's just for that person to be struck down by lightning because god said that this is the Programming of the world and when these environments occur this lightning ball is gonna hit that person was at that That point at time where the lightning hits that is a just system where there was no Bending the rules for you don't know what justice is Your justice is your your justice is indistinguishable from arbitrary capricious things No, your justice comes from a side where it's what you presume as your own eyes and your own feelings is just No, sir, that's not the way justice see justice justice is getting what somebody deserves That's just lying mercy is a suspension of justice and when you suggest that an act Where an seemingly arbitrary act could have some justification in order to You have betrayed every sense of justice justice means nothing if a lightning bolt might be just If the person got hit by a lightning bolt there was a reason for that person to hit by a lightning ball It's not just their death So when god is making a judgment like that it is based not out of the oppression But it's based on what this person has earned. Yeah, so as i'm going back to it's incredibly sad for you to It's incredibly sad for you to do that When i'm saying it is sad because you've tossed out the idea of justice because we try to distinguish Justice has deserved results rather than just like a coin. Do you think a coin? Do you think a coin toss from your perception? Do you hold on one second? It's not from my perception I'm trying to explain something to you, but you don't want to hear it because you know that it's going to show That you just said something that betrays all justice Is a coin tossed if I toss a coin to determine if you live or die. Is that just On your end. No, it's not just is it just at all. It's not about just on anybody's end Is it just no, okay, so a coin toss isn't just but a lightning bolt might be what if that lightning bolt was the result of a coin toss You see now you're making a question. What if but that's i'm telling you when it comes down to all of the questions are what if I'm sorry that you didn't recognize that nobody here has actually been struck by lightning The point is Now this isn't a conversation. It's a debate and you have tossed out the notion of justice The second you say that a coin toss isn't just but a lightning bolt is you don't know what you're talking about You don't have a sense of justice at all. I do Matt when you're talking about justice There was some I think you've ticked curiosity. Muhammad One thing about the lightning bolt Just to people are wondering Do you understand right?  That's not immoral. I'm saying that god has judged for that person to get hit by a lightning rod So if god judged that coin toss to come up, it doesn't let me speak I don't need to let you speak because you keep betraying this man. Like here's the thing Here's the thing that is stupid about what you said if god can determine the lightning bolt God can determine the coin toss. That's the point. I just want to be sure that So if I understood right, Muhammad, you were saying No, it's not the case. So you clarified Just for anyone wondering in chat and you're saying no, it's not necessarily that they were more immoral And then you were saying that it's it's that allah has decided though This is his judgment on the person That is the judgment for that person for him to be struck by lightning bolt And and allah could also judge that the coin toss James You answered the question I'll give you a chance to Muhammad. I'll give you a maybe 25 seconds. I just All of us all of us sometimes I wander when I give a response And so I just if it's as direct as possible in terms of maybe uh, You know, like what's the The direct answer just are people looking for clarification And then like if you want to unpack it a little bit sometimes it's just that it's like I commonly do Sometimes it's like the answer kind of wanders From left to right before getting there and that's you know, you're human. Everybody does it But in terms of you're saying that's all is judgment and then I wanted to give you a chance to maybe another 20 seconds to finish Okay, so When I'm saying that it's God's judgment because you're just seeing what's outside is what you're perceiving as just as unjust But God is also judging the person in his thoughts and what he's seeing other people what he's doing to other people In mind in the physical so for that person his decisions in his life led for that Strike to happen on him because of the summation of his actions It's not just because of one action or just not because it's death It looks that it's unjust to you But it's going to be very just when you see his that man's full story So no, I don't think someone that is I don't believe nor can you prove that if someone is A moral person and a good person getting struck by lightning. Show me a story when that happened Or give you a chance to respond Matt. I don't want to sorry. I was trying to give a chance um so in in Muhammad's thing It's just because God determined that the lightning bolt would strike that person but it's a coin toss isn't just which means Allah can't determine a coin toss or Muhammad is willing to say that Allah doesn't determine a coin toss because you can't throw out the coin toss and say that wouldn't be just Unless you're also going to throw out the lightning bolt because if Allah can can kill someone with a lightning bolt Then Allah can also dictate that coin toss and Allah could look at that and say, you know what? This guy deserves it. So when they toss that coin to determine if he lives or dies I'm going to make it come up heads. How did you rule that out?   You're just not sure I keep on point. I keep on point. How did you rule out? Well, I'm getting to the point but you keep So when the man decided to do a coin toss if a person lives or died, the injustice is from that part But when the man threw the coin wherever it landed that was god's programming at that point Then yes, god did determine the result of someone dying or not if the person did die Injustly god wanted that person to take that injustice so that he faces it on the day of judgment It's a very simple concept But if the man lived yes God did decide that and just to quickly qualify the word. Allah which I sent you in the email Which I know you looked over very quickly because a lot of questions don't want to admit it and a lot of atheists Don't want to admit it. There is no difference between the word Allah the god That's what it means. There is no Allah and in other deities. So i'm just saying the word god So I don't know why you keep referring as if it's a different concept. Allah means god I didn't I'm not referring to anything as if it's a different concept You're the one that said that a coin toss would not be just And that a lot and the lightning bolt would be now Can we get back to whether or not islam is true because none of this has anything to do with whether or not islam is true And while you seem to think that i'm the one that's wandering I'm going to keep pushing back on the point. How do you demonstrate that islam is true The moral values and the inputs that you have to put in the world makes you the best human beings With what is described in the quran from what all the other religions have discovered Which they have a small part of quran I mean islam has it comprehensive and that's been proven by every other person that adhered to these rules Which is what the limits are and so it yes everything is Like you can do whatever you want in the world except to what the authority is limiting you on That's the definition of religion because there's a verse in the quran and god says What do you mean? So it's the religion of the king. This is for the story of joseph So what i was trying to explain to you is that you have the laws of your government Which is setting you your limits and then there's the laws of nature which is setting you your limits At that point those laws of nature is what god has dictated But for example god said that i could walk wherever i want But the government can say that in these parts of the world you can't walk they made it like they forbid that So these are the limitations between what god has limited and what human human beings are limited This is what i was trying to explain to you as religion in the beginning And these limitations that you could put to yourself and what the limitations that the governments put and what other limitations people put This is what makes a society successful or not The quran is giving you the limitations that will make you the best human being and the way that i can prove this Is by what these limitations are And they're and and some of them i explain in the opening statements The other ones are like don't kill don't lie don't cheat don't steal be valid in your testimonial Be as patient as you can if someone transgresses against you show forgiveness If you want to have a good life then always remember god just because now in the day the day in age That we're in right now people don't commit too many crimes Or do not try to commit too many crimes if a camera is present because they know there's that higher chance of them getting reprimanded so people shy away from Causing corruption because of this constant surveillance And they don't like this constant surveillance and some people appreciate the constant surveillance So what for an is teaching you is that you are constantly under surveillance So that if you do not if you do cause enough corruption in the world Or if you put negative energy in the world where it's going to harm other people You will get struck by lightning you will get a rock falling down on you You will get negative effects in the world So god will protect the other humanity other human beings from you So when it happens to you, it's not arbitrarily It's because reality has dictated that this is the best course for the world Yes at that at the end point just like how you made an assertion I made that same assertion because I could clearly see it humanity could have should have destroyed itself So many times back in history, but we still keep going because of these random events that help humanity So is it possible that somebody could cause pain to somebody else And that they then live a long life and die happily in bed That is uh So I don't know about uh, live happily die happily in bed You don't like that. I'm just asking if you think it's possible Well, if someone is like if it's just a one-time deal, I'm not sure But if someone who's habitually hurting other people and getting away with it's clutch free with Which is to be habitual Uh, well to me is that's how habits are formed in the mind In your in your opening you said that the Quran states that you will answer for causing pain But I've seen but we have no way to demonstrate that people that everybody who causes pain will actually answer for it Do we Okay, so this goes back to the point where you were saying which you were throwing away very quickly I'm saying that because of these Uh Clearly realities and the clear truth that I am finding and other people are also finding in the Quran Those are the eight points that you could live and test and be in the world As you're talking to people the other two is god is expressing to you That you will answer for your crimes because he will resurrect you just like how you were offline you became offline online So what you're saying is that if you don't if you don't pay for your crimes in this life You'll pay for them in some other life When if well, technically you are paying for them in your life here because your mentality is not gonna Your mentality starts to suffer the more the more Corruptions you do so it's an internal punishment, but then you will also have to Get punished later on for what you did for the people that you affected So yeah, I'm just saying you you said the Quran states that you'll answer for causing pain What if somebody doesn't answer?  So it's not no sir Reality is not telling me that I will be facing it. I just I gave you an example Right of I caused someone harm and I immediately died When when and how do I face? Uh consequences for that because you're asserting that it will be caught there will be consequences Yes, I'm asserting but as what the Quran states from I don't know We're talking about Islam. Hang on when you say This is what the Quran states that doesn't matter because what the Quran states is not necessarily true The purpose of tonight's debate is for you to demonstrate that it is true And you don't get to just say that's what the Quran states. So how do you show? That someone who causes someone pain and dies immediately is somehow going to pay for causing that pain Well, this is the The point that I was trying to make is that Islam is giving you right the reality what you need to do in this reality And it's also a prophecy and this is why god sends prophets of things that will occur And what he prophesied is that you are going to be resurrected And all your inputs that you're going to do or all the inputs that you did you will have to answer for it Which is the motivation for why a lot of muslims Why a lot of muslims try to keep their patience because it's it's like this conversation here the belief just simply the belief Okay, let's just talk about simply the belief me knowing that on the day of judgment I am going to be judged on how I treat you don't know that you believe it I don't know that but but I'm telling you demonstrate that it's true. How do you demonstrate that it's true Man, the only way I could demonstrate to you is the truth is I told you so at the end at this point There is no way to prove telling me so doesn't mean it's true I'm asking you you're saying that you know that there's going to be a day of judgment And I'm saying how do you know that that's truth? Okay, so the word that god used in the Quran is that you don't know that god used a word All right, but can you take can you take it from my terminology without being so technical? No, because I know because that's not how logic and reasoning work You don't get but this is a conversation. You don't get to begin with the assumption of the very thing You're trying to prove. How do you know that there's going to be a day of judgment? How do you know that it is true that there will be a day of judgment? The way that I know it's true is because of the prophecy from the religion that I follow The religion is giving me the best ingredients to this live in this world and it's prophesizing For me to stay on track that you will be judged as I was trying to say that believe is the motivation For why people can't stay on track. It is very difficult As you yourself has insulted me a few times earlier when I didn't mean to be derogatory But you took it from me as an insulting way But me even though I'm sorry. I mean like I would Like uh, give you an insult back But I try not to because it's not the best way for us to deal in a conversation No, the best way would be to on it would be to be honest and not accuse people of straw man And then the best way would be to say hey, how do you know this is true? To admit that you do not know it's true and you have no methodology And you have no way to demonstrate that islam is true, which you've admitted obliquely, but you won't admit it directly No, you're saying that you know it's true because you believe the prophecy of the religion But whether or not you believe the prophecy of the religion is not in any way a demonstration that it is true Man the problem is we're attacking the last response Muhammad will give you the last word and then we've got to go to the qna So I'll give you about maybe 20 25 seconds So you're attaching concepts, which i'm not talking about in a way so that yes logic truth and evidence Matt you're connecting things that i'm not connecting you're saying that this is my position when i'm saying that what islam is Is the way you're handling yourself. I'm not we're not debating what islam is we're debating whether or not it's true Telling me what you believe is not in any way demonstrating that it's true. I don't know what it is matt Telling me what you believe is secondary to whether i don't know gave me 20 seconds and you're interrupting You're right. I am because you know, you've been put in a position where your only argument is to be I'm the only one here with an argument. I'm the only one here that's talking about logic You're the one that admitted that you have no way to demonstrate that it's true Everybody here can see that. I think we don't listen. We have a problem with listening and comprehending Def dumb and blind is god certain We have a problem listening comprehension.  You are you are you are because you I think this is good Where we'll refresh things with I want to say thanks for your questions So both of our uh gas are linked in the description as well as if you haven't yet We'd appreciate your support hit that like button Appreciate you being here no matter what walk of life you're from this question coming in from notion Look at this pointless poppy says, how do you tell the difference from a reality that is god? From a reality that is not god. I think this is Muhammad this might be referencing earlier when you said that reality knows your thoughts for example And they're saying how do you tell the difference from a reality that is god from a reality that is not god What I don't understand a question I mean, I think they mean, uh, well, I mean, maybe it's a Maybe it even goes back to the idea of like does reality know your thoughts In the sense that like is reality Cognizant is it is it actually sentient? What what if you are part of reality and you thought and you're aware of that thought therefore reality knows your thought It's a very simple logic like a logical statement, but I think my opponent fails to see how Reality is the set and you're a subset of reality if you're aware of that thought the reality knows The reality is aware of your thoughts, but he's seeing the where of awareness He just wants to get into the technical words, but he's very he's very Uh, like he's understanding what I'm telling so When you're saying that reality doesn't know makes no sense Then it's not reality In theory like let's say though that like just as a quick follow-up Like if we said that like atoms are small Right, you probably agree with that Okay, and then like if we said like an elephant is made out of atoms And then I said Muhammad an elephant is small And you might be like well, it's not though even though part of it has the property of it You know, I think that's I'm just I'm not trying to take sides I think that was just the point that Matt was trying to drive home was Uh that he was this is the way I interpreted it as he was saying Let's say that you know, he says okay, I grant that I know reality Or I I should say he grants that he knows his own thoughts Uh and then he's saying like but I'm just a part of reality. How can we Say that because I have thoughts that reality as a whole Which I'm a very small component of all of reality has thoughts I think that's do you give them where the questioners coming from where they're they're saying like isn't it possible that reality doesn't have thoughts I understand how you're giving reality its own entity where reality has its own thoughts And then you are part of reality where you have your own thoughts While my position is that reality is all encompassing So when you thought when you had a thought that became part of reality My reality reality that that thought is part of reality now. So it is aware of my god Was that am I god?  I think they're saying like Muhammad Uh, what what's what's the old phrase what sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander that if you said that You know because a part of reality namely humans have thoughts then we can say that reality Has thoughts well then also we'd have to say that because humans let's say have imperfections We have to say reality has imperfections Which would mean that it can't be god because I think that you were earlier saying that reality is god in a way So we do have the concepts of free will and the imperfections are falsehood those imperfections like physical Imperfections has a scientific proof why you have that physical imperfection So there is a reason for why those imperfections exist. So it's still a perfect system But when it comes to falsehood like impurities in your mind, those are falsehoods Those are those are falsehoods that are not reality Those are just thoughts that reality is aware that you had but it doesn't make them Reality at that point. It doesn't make them the physical reality that what you're witnessing It's not objective reality at that point Gotcha, this one from lowkey says How can anyone use a book as proof of anything? I think they're saying like let's say Muhammad if the christian comes on or if the I don't know what do the Scientologists have a book Uh, if if someone else with a holy book comes on and says my holy book tells me this Like what what's a way in which you could say one book is true and namely why why believe yours out of all the others well, god In the Quran, that's just so mad The Quran clear The Quran states the words observe many times have they not observed go observe go observe go look So it's he's telling you to go see the verses that are being written in the world That's in front of you and those are measurable by logic reasons and sometimes by science so And and many of those verses you could you can clearly implement in your life and you see the results So and and one of the many verses that uh, the the Quran repeats is where God is saying that he if when a society becomes Very corrupted he removes them and then there's a new society and that that is something that you can clearly observe And all those societies that we do see that they're gone like the egyptians the romans the byzantine time They were so corrupted at the end where they were no longer able to sustain themselves So reality dictates when you get to that position you're done And that's what's kind of happening in some countries in the world today. So this is what God wants us to observe so that we could avoid these terrible circumstances. That's the warning This one from samir far sain says Name this fallacy. They say edwin Hubble says the universe is expanding call it the greatest discovery in the 20th century and He gets a noble prize for it. Then they say karan said the same thing 13 centuries prior And I think they're deciding a surah 51 47 And they say but this is ignored and dismissed this come up today I can't remember that this came up, but I think they're asking you matt what your response would be to the Karan predicting the universe expanding from centuries before edwin Hubble They're asking me what the fallacy is Yeah, I don't oh, I think they're maybe what they're trying to say is like is this Is this fallacious like this the scientific argument from the Scientific miracles argument from the karan I think they're saying like Is what's the fallacy in this argument? They're trying to make an argument for the karan being true James, I think the person's argument was that like Modern-day science found that earth was I mean the universe is expanding and they gave the person an award But when the when it was stated in the Quran they just like go over it as if it's not existing So that's I think what oh, I see. Okay. Yeah, okay. Yeah, I think now that you say that I think they are saying like The karan isn't getting the credit for having called You know predicted that the universe is expanding Right because the karan didn't the karan didn't demonstrate any scientific truth at all Like just like me and you are making assertions the Quran asserted that the universe is expanding And it is expanding that's no the karan does not assert that the universe expanding the concept doesn't even exist But what's happened is after science discovers of the expansion of the universe People go back into their holy books and find things that they can reinterpret To to be consistent with that There is nothing about the karan's statement that is later Post-hoc post-hoc rationalized into saying that it's a scientific saying there's nothing in there that led to the discovery There's nothing in there that confirms that it is true And so therefore it's not doing science the fact that there may be a passage That someone can later interpret in such a way that it's consistent with the finding Is interesting but does not mean that that was known or that that is the content that was presented Well, you know what I appreciate the fact that you said that it's interesting So it does allude to something and yeah, uh, I don't think there was an reinterpretation I don't think there was a reinterpretation when he said The skies we are expanding there is no reinterpretation here. Does it coincide? Does it coincide with what we found in reality? Yes So I think this is what the point uh, the questioner is asking that it it does coincide Point blank word for word with what the discovery has it actually doesn't and this is one of the things that's come up Over and over and over again that we've debunked repeatedly Uh, it is not stating that the universe is expanding. It's literally is a poetic thing about stretching out the skies That is not Any sort of scientific statement about what's happening with the expansion of the universe And there's no conception that the rest of the universe even exists Where you have uh, well, anyway, it didn't come up during tonight's debate. So Go back and watch the other five debates I've done on this where people will claim that the is that that the karan says all kinds of interesting scientific things And yet none of them led to a single scientific discovery It was only after we discovered them through proper science and real evidence that someone went back and said Oh, well, the karan says something that can be read that way. Yeah, sure And it could be read other ways as well. Can I say something real quick? There is a quick There is a verse that comes to mind when god says hey This believers haven't you seen that the earth in the skies used to be one And then we split them and then from the water we created up So here he is addressing the people that did strive in science and they did witness with the So kind of god said it before you and that passage doesn't address people's striving in science It's not true that the heavens and the earth were once Unified and it's not true that every living thing was made of form water Every everything in the passage you just said is either factually wrong or not demonstrably true science So big bang theory is just not something that's demonstrable I I don't even know where that question comes from because there's absolutely nothing in the karan That that constructs a big bang cosmology Not point by point, but he did refer it on any point that that the land that we're sitting on You know the physical concepts and the sky used to be one and then he The land that we're sitting on in the sky were never won I mean, uh, the material that created them the material was not a scientist. I'm not a scientist I know But it does the loot. I don't think you are either. I'm not sure I think One of us knows the science better than the other one and those two things were never the same You know what the theory might want to jump just because this one's off the original topic of the the question I want to jump to the next one. Ms. Pickles says so muslims in iraq in afghanistan Who strove to like live a muslim life? Just quote unquote got what they got When they were murdered by american troops. Was this deserved? Well, here's the thing so the religion was there to liberate people so if people Concided and they stuck to the values that are in the quran and they didn't attribute falsehood They could have been they would have had the ability to have a more meaningful society Where it's not trapped in the eighth century where they could have gave the americans a run for their money And they would have survived so reality dictated if that because the other side worked so hard on sciences and technology And spreading their influence in a certain way because they did put that effort They did get what they worked for in whatever reality allowed them and on the other side because they were so busy Fighting with falsehood and fighting among each other with things that does not coincide with what the quran is saying They lost so yes, it is what you are doing It's like someone going to the gym and someone not going to the gym And then they get into a physical altercation Most of the time the person in the gym is going to win and this is what happened with afghanistan in iraq Their society is crumbled because they're stuck in an eighth-century mentality. Unfortunately where the quran It beats all of that society evolutions because it keeps you in it keeps you in check It keeps you strong and it keeps you learning But they can't have that privilege This one's from pointless poppy says reality is god God has no imperfections yet humans are imperfect and are real. Oh, they they told me that they You read this in twice says that was one he covered Robin Webster says all religions claim to be true the holy books claim to be true If I come to earth with no concept of a god, what method would I use to find truth? Sorry, can you repeat that question? They said all religions and holy books claim to be true If I was an alien coming to earth with no concept of god, what method would I use to find the truth? Well, the truth will still exist on the planet that you're from So whatever you're finding in reality that consides with what you're seeing here in humanity It should also coincide with with wherever you're from in in the environment that you're in So for you to test truth is trial and error at that point And then you have your logic you have your reasons and you have uh, like what uh, you're like your natural Being your natural essence which god calls for clock alone So that's uh, that that's all ways for you to to see how the truth is and of course you have your scientific methods And you have all sorts of sciences that god gave us the knowledge to use to find the truth KV says for Muhammad if getting stuck and struck by a lightning bolt as an example of god's justice Does that mean that lightning rods prevent god's justice? Even if there's a lightning rod That lightning can still hit you if it was dictated to hit you So the lightning rod plays in a way to mitigate the risk But if you're gonna get hit by lightning doesn't matter what it there is at that point You got it. This is not a hundred percent, please mk, let's see visa richardson, sorry Okay, I got it says Muhammad. Why did a lot a la give my child? debilitating mental illnesses that have greatly reduced his well-being in life I think they're saying the issue of children is that it's maybe hard to understand if they have as she mentioned debilitating illnesses or hit by lightning I think she's wondering what how is that just if they most of us tend to think that children haven't Done anything right right so The way I see it and it's and of course there isn't an assumption because I don't know what Is the direct cause for that child to have that cancer? But it is the results of all of us So it's like all these vaccines that people are pushing all this lead that was We can't we got to stay within two youtube terms of service. So, oh, sorry. Sorry. I mean, I mean in the third world I don't know about the us and all that That is not a field that I understand. So it's not something I'm going to clearly No, no, but but but I'm saying like sorry So the genetic modifications in food the leaded the leaded Petrol that was like they used in cars for a little for a while The the plastics that we're finding in the environment all this corruption is causing health issues and mental issues for people Which is a corruption that we cause on our own I would like to know if certain diseases existed before this corruptions happen and if And I would like to see the evidence for that if people did have these severe Consequences that some of the children are born with nowadays and it would be an interesting way to see But I don't I don't think naturally we were born with these imperfections But we caused it with ourselves because of the corrupted mentalities and again, I apologize about that comment This one coming in from No hard feelings this one from wolfie adder says simple You get what you earn or somebody else gets what you earn or something you did not earn Or what somebody else earns But you do not earn anything because you get what you get If you earn it or not My brain hurts they say Yeah, this is what happens when you throw out an actual concept of justice where something is deserved and instead you say Whatever happens happens. It's predetermined It's either the result of the decisions you made or the results of the decisions other people made or the results of just Whatever decision god made Congratulations, you've now covered every opportunity and constructed a win-win scenario for your god except that it's not a true Win-win scenario because your god looks like an absolute ass by giving kids diseases And when the when it when somebody writes in to say why under your model does this happen You're like, well, I don't know. Maybe it was leaded gas. Maybe it was this. Maybe it was that maybe it's yeah, none of that in any way Is a system of justice Where anyone is getting what they deserve. It is Indistinguishable from a universe that does not care. Well, it is indistinguishable from a capricious coin toss Well, let me explain to you how islam works. Let me introduce you to islam So if I am making this chemical, which I don't know during the debate Yeah, you can you can laugh as you I did but now you're gonna understand what I'm saying in a debate If I'm making this material, this is a gasoline that has led and it and I have scientific proof that it's going to cause scientific I mean mental health issues and issues health issues for people, right?  This is what islam helps with this is what islam teaches is that Justice comes from within It's it's when someone else has become being unjust It's because of those people not accepting the the the roles that god has put on you as a human being Yeah, if I was doing this Leaded petroleum and I see that it's going to cause corruptions I would stop it right then and there because I that's not worth the money But people were focusing on money and this is what islam fixes that mentality This is what the whole point of the debate was Except that people didn't necessarily people didn't necessarily know what the problem was and islam doesn't fix that or anything else So there is clear evidence that the people who did push the leaded gasoline knew the environment Uh, uh, the environmental problems and the health problems that it could have caused and there isn't evidence There isn't evidence that the people who initially created and started promoting leaded gasoline Knew that it was going to cause mental health issues because you haven't demonstrated that it does cause mental health issues You've constructed a fictional scenario in order to dodge the fact that your model is that god gave that kid a disease Because that's what god wanted to do. That's not what I said. I said That's your model. It doesn't matter if you say it because of your words. Betray it It's not words. Betray it is just they do twisting the words. Well things that I'm not twisting the words You have a model provided anything that's remotely a just model No, the only thing that you do is you take everything and call it in search Then you make a bunch of searches this one from nice little things for your super sticker lily here says are the versions you got in heaven male or female Okay Let's see We're looking for serious questions folks Pretty sure that was not serious. D. Udro says Muhammad's philosophy is just blaming the victim That expect nothing less from islam Well, not just the victim He blames other people in addition to the victim He blames everybody If you're the one who's going to coin a toss to find to kill an innocent person. Yes or no, you're the oppressor You're the one. I'm sorry. You didn't understand the example. I'm sorry that you didn't understand the example. It was an analogy It's not that somebody's deciding. Yes, we're going to do a coin toss Your god is the one that you think is ultimately responsible for both the the coin toss and the decision to do a coin toss Now you're making an assumption on me that god has decided an assumption I'm responding to what you actually said. I'd never said that you have your free will I'm responding to what you actually said and no, you you haven't demonstrated that we have free will That's just another assertion on your point Don't be an opportunity to go the next one. You don't have free will this poppy says, how do you know your god is just Just in taking a life if he has not given us reason or the reason is beyond comprehension I say I think they're saying like this seems like it's kind of something we should be agnostic on like They're saying, you know, if you're going to assert that, you know that there's a purpose in this that god has like How do you do that? Like how do you know sometimes the purpose is not always evident to you So they're asking about what if you didn't know the purpose and that point is not evident to you So what why are you asking me to find something that we can't find? Like clearly and evident, but is there a plan of course there's a plan. How do you know that? How do I know that because the world still carries on? We could so you're asserting then it's impossible for the word You're asserting that it's impossible the world to carry on unless there's a plan Which means that you assume an intentional plan rather than actually demonstrating it This is what you've done across the board tonight But but it's the same thing that you did was you just go it's not the same thing I did I haven't done a single foul. So just quite your assertion to the country because you're just always like what if with edge cases that do not Not edge cases. No sir. It wasn't edge cases You had the opportunity to present a case And you ethically failed to present anything like a case and every question that was asked of you dodged Do you want to jump to the next one? Yes, you did. No, I did it.   So my honest philosophy is just blaming the victor. We got that one. Sorry about that. I'm a little bit off today Rodolfo Garcia says true scotsman fallacy Uh incoming trying to think of I don't think that one came up. I'm trying to remember when When it might have come up So no true scotsman fallacies usually when someone has a standard for something and then the uh, you could say the opponent Meets that standard and then they say well, no, that's not really what I meant when I you know describe the standard Like you're still not meeting my standard. It's kind of like moving the goalpost, but I don't remember it This one from yeah, I don't know if the otter says matt. Let's see. Did you win your chess game? I I won two of them and I lost a couple That's something you would even you reminds me of steven this one coming in from Role Magellan says Mohammed's mind has been rotten. Let's see They're saying they're saying Mohammed. How do you know that the the Quran hasn't Made your mind rotten rather than made it good and they say Go ahead that that's actually sorry. Sorry. Can you carry on with the question? I probably that's it That's it in a nutshell is like I think they're saying like, how do you make it? How do you know it's made you? morally better Or actually maybe more rotten on the other side Well, because uh aside from the baits because there is a little bit of confrontation People don't have a problem dealing with me and people enjoy dealing with me And usually when we are having just a pleasant conversation about day to day or like businesses People like to deal with me because I keep reminding myself constantly of the values that I need to have in life Which was I which was which I was taught by my lord So this is why I do find uh like my life became a lot more fulfilling When I found just the Quran just like the Quran itself explained to me a worldview that is Uh, that is very beneficial for me on a subjective take and if everyone else shared a similar worldview Humanity would be better. That's all because matt I like Let's let's not discuss god, but is this an incorrect statement? Like there's many man-made religions, but there's one real religion, which is peace Me and you should find the ability to find some peace with whatever we're doing and not to impose on each other Is that a true statement? I don't think that's not a true. Sorry. Is that a is that a comforting statement? Is that a good statement? I don't care if a statement is comforting I care about whether or not it's true the subject the debate was is Islam true The fact that you find it comforting or that your life's better is not in any way a demonstration of truth And while I'm still talking and while I would love to find ways to be To to to strive for peace together and you and I can work towards peace together I'm not going to be advocating for religious assertions that are false And and certainly not if they're going to lead someone to Pervert a sense of justice to pretend that capriciousness is justice And maybe people get along with you because they haven't asked you why their kid got a debilitating disease Maybe they get along with you because they don't know that your sense of justice is one that is perverse Maybe they get along with you because they haven't had the discussions about how do you demonstrate that what you believe is true Where you just assert that you believe it's true because you believe it's true And you found it useful and you think that it's given you a better life How did you determine that god was the good one? Excuse me? Well, is there an evil one at all in your model or is there just god? No, there's just god. There is no evil god. Okay, how did you determine that god is in fact good because the closest you've come to to saying Here's what's good is because what you're saying is good is compatible with your understanding of god But how did you determine that the god that you think you understand is in fact good? Because if if the god that you understand is a flawed creation of your mind or somebody else's mind and you judge it by its own I would be perfect if you judged me by my own Views And so it's not enough to say Oh God is good You need to be able to demonstrate that god is good. Otherwise You're just pointing to something and saying this is good. But no, there's no there's no justification for it Because from what I'm understanding of how the lord is treating me personally I'm also reflecting that to the people and the people around me Of course, it's not to the same level or or or anything close to but it's what I'm learning from him So it's like for example, like, you know Me I might not know something and I might get upset at something and I might lash out at people while I was in a complete incorrect position But I believe my lord is allowing me to go through the actions until I find the point if he allows me to see that I was incorrect, but he's not punishing me for lashing out at that point It's just so that I can reach a conclusion Where I can learn and go from and this is what I do with everyone else But that's what you believe. I asked how see here's the thing But but man, this is life is trial and error. So I'm I'm I got no problem with trial and error I have the issue here is is islam true But these are the values of islam and and when you say That you think it's true because you believe it and when I ask the questions of what method can you use to show that it's true You have none and when I ask how did you determine that god was good? You have nothing other than you believe it exists in humanity The values that you use that the the quran is preaching you use them themselves for you to have a normal easy Like a conversation easy life in a somewhat of a purpose It is what the quran is preaching the things that align with the truth and reality you are finding themselves The quran is perfect. We're not there for you We are not finding the same things to be true and the fact that you're going to the Fact that something about every day life that something exists in reality does not mean it's good If something exists in reality, it does not mean it's necessarily good. That's a true statement There you go and god is reality, which means god isn't necessarily good. Thank you God said he himself has created evil and good Okay, but when the evil is why would a good being create evil? Because that's the role that he created in this world. So there's evil and there's good because that's the way it is Not a reason not a truth We got a lot of questions got to fire through alfanzol up pulse says I live in northern england Thanks for that alfanzol and I didn't understand your question just so you know it mk v says Muhammad have your Have you ever questioned your own beliefs? Of course you question your beliefs so that you understand your beliefs You need to understand what you're believing in your work with it So when i'm saying that this is how it works I could clearly see there's evil in the world and I could see there's good in the world And god has created both of them But then I am getting the explanation on why evil is here and I could god is explaining why evil is around But matt doesn't give me the opportunity to express from what I've seen but that's fine And it's not something that's a long topic on its own But it but the but that concept of what the religion is preaching as a whole reality Is concisive and what I can see in the physical world and in my mentality Is something that's extremely beneficial and it's extremely true and it didn't only work for me It worked for anybody else that followed this route and of course everything has levels So the more you're you're the more you're like The more committed you are the better the results are but When it comes to the concept of the justice god in this book clearly states that there's a resurrection where everything will come back to Equal erbium So yes, there is justice that we're not going to see right away And there is justice in the world and there's injustice in the world But the injustice is going to be taken care of later So when it comes to the child when someone comes to me and asks me, hey, why does my child have cancer? It's because the results of everyone else But on the day of judgment, which you don't believe in which I truly believe in I Because to you it's you think that I'm giving a reason for god But I do believe this is going to occur god is going to put all those people responsible That caused that child to have cancer for them to stand up for what they did We've got to move forward. I do want to Rick, I forgot to mention between sections folks if you happen to be a muslim and you want to debate If you show it to me at modern day debate at gmail.com There are very few muslim debaters out there. And so if you are interested if you shoot me an email We're gonna go to the next question. Thank you very much for your question coming in from Della luna says can we get each speaker to define truth in maybe one or two sentences? I did it during my opening. The truth is that which comports with reality You got it and then Mohammed Well god in the Quran says god is reality and god is the truth. So that kind of coincides with what matt said No, it does not it does It absolutely does not and the fact that you think it does says everything that's wrong with this debate No, it's what's wrong with this debate is you're having this personification of god or an idea of god That isn't what god is so you yourself have not been able to define what the definition of god is But it's not my job to define god you exactly so you're looking for something you don't want to define But if you define it's hilarious how every time i correct you on something you say exactly as if you were right all along No, it's embarrassing This one says Mohammed is the reason islam is true because it says non-believers Believers are to get deaf dumb and blind. Is it just ad hominems against unbelievers?  You're here to defend if something's true and you can't even do that How can I not do that? You don't allow me to say you're doing the same thing now technically I can't do that It's hyperbole. You're not recruiting on me. I can't do that.  I can't do that Okay, you haven't done it. I'm sorry that I assumed that you couldn't How dare you say that? I haven't done it. You're the one that suggested if something's happened eight times I can reasonably assume that nine and ten are gonna be the same I'm sorry that you failed eight times and I assumed nine and ten As guys that was a fallacy that you taught me earlier. Is that go blind? It's they're hard to be an opportunity. They don't see the they don't see my heart was already of their actions and Here's that the work it's them not able to understand like just like how matt sent it going back to that one. They were saying is it How do you know islam is true maybe like in two sentences if you want to summarize because you know This is a topic that's come up a lot tonight So james what I was trying to explain is that god is not using it as an ad hanim or he's not uh Trying to insult the person It's not an insult on the person But rather the heart goes blind and the ears they hear the words But they don't listen and their minds they they they cannot comprehend what's being said because they're just so Lost in their thoughts and their brain waves and they just want to interrupt and be so technical with things that is Just not what's being said So what I was trying to explain is that that is a clear truth people who align with falsehood It's very hard for them to concentrate and to listen And to have a mind where they can try to understand the other person's perspective Regardless if they agree or not because they become deaf dumb and blind And they don't know the results of their actions. That's the blindness So it's like they're doing things that they don't see the long run or what their actions can cause And that's a very valid truth that you could see in in reality Ad says is it possible that prophet Muhammad sinned secretly and therefore went to hell Can you say for certain that he didn't go to hell? Who asked that question? Ad is their name I'm not sure. Well, but the uh, no, I don't I don't believe that problem.   Thank you very much This is uh, let's see Dead soul. Okay. I didn't understand that one. Kathy to Doris is Muhammad if my tribe explained to me what death That death is nothingness Where do I go to find evidence that what I've been told is wrong? Also, I can't read Well, you try and tell me to explain something in the unseen as I said the only way that you can understand the The afterlife is a dying and seeing the afterlife But for me, it's a faith where I'm seeing everything in the physical in the physical world and in the mental realm That I'm in right now is coinciding with the Quran. So the verse is about faith. I'm accepting. I'm as prophet This one from dead soldier says any chances that aliens have been mistaken for gods No, well people mistake things for god all the time people think money is god people worship all sorts of false realities Associating it to god and this is the this is one of the core problems that fall for this It's just like the denial of god. So you're associating an idea Uh and attaching it back to reality, which is not the reality. So this is this is the problem It's the same chance matt I don't see any reason to think that aliens have actually visited and then been mistaken for gods. Uh, but you know It it seems more plausible than islam being true This one from rusty colin says mohammed Why would god leave his instructions up to individual human interpretation as to what it means Who can claim to have valid interpretation? Well, the the way that I understand is the religion Isn't uh more so of structure and when you try to structure a religion you start to falling into the same traps that uh Like the catholic church fell into Sunniism Judaism where it becomes a state run Program and where they it's it's in a sense of oppression It's our word and we're gonna kill you and then the other side is where the book is guidance So the Quran is giving you guidance and your guidance is not going to be as someone else So the word the verses are interpreted a little differently But when someone's coming with a crazy interpretation Those are very clear because then there's other verses in the Quran that breaks that person's interpretation So that's that's why there are these differences in understanding of the Quran And that's why there's these interpretations of the Quran And the ones that usually dominate is where that people resonate to what's being said more people are resonating to what's being said Ryan Nugabour says Muhammad if the majority of Muslims get it wrong on your view. How is the Quran reliable? Well, it was because they weren't using the Quran They were they forsaken the Quran to go with what the guy in the mosque said or what their scholars is saying And a lot of the assertions that they made from the Quran or about the Quran or about the prophet are not true And the more you lie the more you're gonna have a difficult life So i'm not saying what mad's point of view is is is like correct or not on what reality is But mad makes a huge effort in trying to say like the truth from what he's witnessing And there's merit to that but on the other side where those people are preaching about religion They're saying a lot of things that they could not support from the text of god Okay, and it's not about mad anymore, but they they believe that it's from god and I believe from its god, but they're not Proving their positions from that text they're proving their positions from other texts Which doesn't coincide with what god dictated in the reality It's worth noting that the second you mentioned that they they're not proving Uh based on the text of god when you can't demonstrate that there is a text of god Just that you believe it means that you are beginning with the assumption that this is the text This is the text of god and everything must be proven with respect to that That is not a sound methodology That is not an epistemology that is worthy of consideration And you're basically saying everybody's wrong because they don't begin with your assumption that you have the text of god It's not an assumption It's a reality because the intensity of this world that's in front of me and the detail that this world is in And how every single input has a lot of outputs and its clarification That's in front of me is whatever created this reality has created the text that's in front of me because it has that same detail It has that same It's saying signature. So this is the view that's that yeah That's the beauty of the arabic language that's being used in that book because it's not something that anyone can produce as a human You should have you should have proved that but that's yet another unfounded assertion. So it's not a word I thought we were gonna have anything at all specific about arabic in that email. Wow. You just keep lying This one from lowkey says Children born with a disease or have a curse from god. We've already covered that so lowkey I just because we've already covered I don't Don't want to go back and do it mino. Levan says for a Muhammad god said therefore it's true Yes Yes, so if god says something and i'm sourcing god at that point and it and it's clearly from god at that point It's true This is this is the problem with atheists.  Well, they don't even know what a god is Look, I know Bunches of definitions for god. I know the gods of classical theism. I know the gods of various versions of christianity I know the definitions of gods of a variety different Variety of different versions of islam. It's not about which definition of god don't I know It's about which god can you demonstrate and the answer is zero Matt, what kind of evidence would what's kind of evidence which give you which is sufficient evidence for you to say that god exists It would depend on the god It would depend on the god as I've answered this talking about one god. Wow. Wow. Can I finish? Oh now, you know how I felt during the whole debate Go ahead No, I don't know how you felt during the whole debate because I wasn't wrong for the whole debate As I said many many times it would depend on which god we're talking about You'd have to give the characteristics of the god and then we could establish what the nature of evidence was But for most versions of a god If there is a god that god knows exactly what would change my mind And is capable of doing what would change my mind But has failed to do so which means that god either doesn't exist or does not want me to know that he exists yet My no, my problem says for mohammed god We got that one slow john dosa's question for both if hypothetically a religious text had a scientific miracle in it It still does not prove that the text is from a god It could be a text by demons or aliens as well Aha, what are your thoughts? There's there's a few uh verses that kind of uh answer that specific question Is in a sense that if it was from demons and aliens and all sorts of other creatures Then it should be reproducible so you could have another version of it. So like a different like a you know like part two produce it I have no verses that address that and neither should anybody else versus versus don't get you the truth This one from mino levin says why did arabic word lose all their science? Why did the arabic world lose all their science and intellectuals from the past 800 years? Great question. So when the core analyst first revealed in the first 200 years, there was a there was a like a there was tolerance for The understanding and the interpretation of what the verse is saying to evolve with the needs of the time From like the outside enemies from what's going on inside society So people were free to think And then the abbasid caliphate came around and they locked a religion Someone like how the catholics locked a religion and if you step out of bounds, you're either in jail killed or dead Like the dissonance and then they locked that religion in the eighth century Which removed all aspects of philosophy. You can't put philosophy in our religion. You can't put Reason and logic you can't use that as a way of interpreting and whatever interpretation they had by the eighth century Is what they have at that point and no one else can reinterpret it and that's the only thing that you can reference and time moved on so like The sciences that they did expand with and they did make the changes Those slowly started to move away because people were no longer able to live the The freedom and the Freedom that god allowed them to do within the religion and the religion became a tool They're like version of a religion became a tool for oppression and to just take money I mean, I gotta warn you folks out there. We have we have no more time for additional questions So please don't ask any other questions. We're if you guys are okay with staying a few minutes late We were close to the end. Sure. Thanks for your patience and then some of your foreseeing says matt Do you condemn the labs that made in case you have prescriptions that if they have made your prescriptions for Do you condemn them for testing? those Medicines or whatever on lab rats and they say islam condemns it.  No, I don't condemn them I When there's a better way I absolutely advocate for that, but if it comes down to Rats dying to save humans. I'm okay with that. I actually raise and keep rats and Not only for pets, but also to feed the snakes that I raise There are some harsh truths about life and at the end of the day If we do some testing that saves human lives I'm fine with that because I'm unapologetically speciesist in favor of humans because I am one But matt Reduce the rebuttals just so we get through these last ones, but if it's like super quick like five to ten seconds You have a good zinger No, it's not a zinger. I'm just saying that his I shared the same view and the Quran supports that And yet and yet the questioner suggests that Muslims condemn it. So it must be the other Muslims that already don't like you No notion slaves as Says the Quran verse about the sky and earth being one is odd for matt to reject The entire universe was condensed into a tiny size at the very start of the as the big bang says Can you all go more into that? No, but the the fact that the fact that the big bang cosmology that's the best current explanation for the origins of the universe has Everything is a singularity. It doesn't mean that everything was one thing And and union it just means that everything was in one time and place It it doesn't mean that sky and earth were ever the same thing This one coming in from Herobins says for Muhammad according to the Quran Allah judges as he pleases Guides and misguides as he pleases debate changes nothing.  That's what that means Well, when god created the universe Did he create it knowing everything that would happen? God Created it knowing that everything yes knowing everything that would happen Cool Could he have created a different universe where different things happen? Of course, so god can create uh god can manifest Every possibility and it's all mapped out in his mind, but he chose to manifest the current situation that we're in right now Right and so if god could have created a different universe But he chose to create this one Then he created the universe where i'm an atheist and you're a muslim and somebody else jumped off the building Which means there is no free will there is no choice god picked the universe that he wanted That is an unavoidable consequence of those three things being creator Knowing the outcome and choosing the outcome But at the same time he there is a very easy possible Scenario where god can't give free will where the thing is no there's not where it decides its input or decides its choice It can decide its choice and god knowing his choice. It doesn't mean he dictated Well, no no no if god picked this universe then he made the choice for me and my choice is just an illusion That is unavoidable from that those three things that you agreed to No, you're now you're asserting that god cannot do free will I hate to do it But just no no no i'm reaching a logical conclusion which you should look into This one from jesse carl says matt will you adopt me? That's nice. I can't adopt anybody at this point right now. I apologize. I'd like to xx wlz xx says why do muslims assume that just because something is useful that it is true Can't you make the same argument with other religions namely that they may help you to live a more Healthy you're happy or moral life Does it mean that those are true as well Muhammad? So the concepts that other religions find that make you a better human being are all found in islam You got it xx wlz xx says karan says that Allah Decrees things before they happen. Does that mean he also decrees that people will leave the faith and be tortured forever So when god said that Nothing happens except what god has already written is what going back to the principle where whatever is around you in the world Is already been programmed so everything every action you do the reaction has already been programmed Which is provable and repeatable, which is what we consider as science so When someone is Causing an action or doing something that's their own choice and then the action is what god has produced out of their own Decision but god knows the decisions that you can take but you took those choices on your own This one coming in from do appreciate it Samir farsain strikes again says Muhammad correction brother god didn't create evil evil is simply the absence of good If we eat gmo foods and get cancer, it's not god's fault Uh, james just to push back, uh, uh The So I I invoke the lord of uh, uh, uh like the stars the The the phallic from the evil that he created So god has created evil Is equality between men and women a good thing for the world? Okay, so we're equal as a humanity. Yes, that's a good thing and yes And women has her role but in certain things men have They're like which is men have their positives and weaknesses and women have their strengths and weaknesses But us as humanities we're completely equal Well, completely equal. So when it's time to get witnesses, why would you need two witnesses? um Two two women as opposed to one man So the witnesses in the contract god is talking there for two women instead of one man And uh the verse that uh, I mean within that verse god is saying that he's addressing the if one women forgets the other one will remind her which is alluding and I think it coincides with what which coincides with uh With uh with what science is saying that women have a problem with memory So it's like when they're older when they're older, okay Women have more memory problem than men and I don't I don't need to talk to Muhammad anymore for any of the rest of the questions um That's that is awesome That he's going to claim that science advocates that we should have two women as witnesses because their memories are are less reliable That's not what I said. That's not what I said. It is what you said go back and rewind That no I said that god is saying that you should have two witnesses Because of memory issues and I'm saying science Supports that women have more memory issues than men, but you're just so Like looking for reasons to be a prick and on all honestly I don't need any reasons to be a prick. I'm exceptionally good at being a prick, but you know what I am I don't you know what I am I'm not somebody who's going to lie about the science and I can pretend that my religion Is you already like is opposed to sexism when it's all about sexism or putting women in bags Where's where's woman putting women in bags must move on this one from pointless poppy says if I came to know A god exists and killed people with lightning and gave no reason. I would cry out in profound confusion This one from We'll give you a chance to respond Muhammad I think that was a statement more than a question. But yeah, there is a reason why that person got hit with the lightning rod And god hits with a team whom he pleases. That's the absolute power of god Alpha Sadri says about the blind death point If your god can't communicate his intentions to those people better than what an average joe can then that god is not really That omnipotent real powerful Sorry, can you repeat that james? I missed the first part Once like the page is reloading on me in the in the meantime do want to say Folks we're here. We have just a few more questions. We're gonna get through just a reminder We can't take any more new questions though. So do us a favor Try to get it in next time. This one was from Ali Pasha Sadri says if your god can't communicate his intentions to those people better than what an average joe can I think they mean Through the Quran they say then that god is not really much of a god The intention is very clear in the Quran of what you need to do and his intention as well God created this world in truth. It has a purpose.  That's your responsibility That's the intention for you to be a human being That's something that I'd open up in the opening on what Islam is preaching But that's not something a man wants to discuss at all. He just wants to go into things that he can't himself Prove or not prove so No, no, no, I you just asserted that I want to go into things that I can't prove or disprove I'm sorry The burden of proof is on you the subject that bet is is Islam true You don't get to pretend that I'm avoiding Demonstrating the truth of my position when it's your position that is on the debate, which you've completely failed to to demonstrate Matt unfortunately when I was talking to you about what Islam is and how it existed prior to prophet Muhammad That whole conversation you don't want to talk about and you wanted to talk about how you're finding fallacies In things that are not Felicious like they're not wrong and then when I'm trying to explain I'm sorry, but fallacy doesn't mean wrong I'm sorry that you don't have the first clue what a logical fallacy is But a fallacy does not mean wrong and I didn't find something I was pointing out a fallacy that was a contradiction with your statement Period I mean the fallacy that you said that you found in the quran was a fallacy in the way that you Interpreated and no sir.