Devin, when you're when you're doing this, do you close all your zoom tabs and just to make it simple that kind of thing? All my like chrome tabs or zoom tabs? I'm sorry chrome tabs. Yeah. Um, I I have kind of like a funky setup. So I put, I usually don't use my laptop unless I'm facilitating and I do the screen with the camera as my like zoom home page. Um, and then I have the slide deck always to my left because I'm not like as inclined to look to that. So that's where I'm sharing and then on the one right behind the laptop I have the agenda and then any speaker notes I might have. Okay. Yeah, and then when you're switching from this to let's just say a jam board Do you do you have a separate browser window open? Yeah, so right now I have the agenda the jam board hand out for breakout one the leadership styles padlet and a handout for breakout room to all pull it up ready to go. Yeah Could you would you mind sending me a picture sometime? So I could see I want to try to get organized because I at last summer I remember what I might have told you but one of the internship internship workshops that I gave I was just it was I was just not organized about it in that regard and and people somebody actually wrote about it in the posts or You take it to heart forever. Yeah Well, I don't but I took it seriously. Anyway, I mean they said they just said it seems like the technical side should be better at this point I was like, yeah, you're probably right Thanks for that feedback I Yeah Takes a lot of practice. It's funny now Wouldn't you know when I first started facilitating virtually it was really uncomfortable and felt super awkward and now when I do it in real life I'm like, oh How do I get people to break up? Yeah, like I'm gonna send you to your breakout rooms Never mind down off You know we're like Funny, yeah, yeah, I know we're doing this in person next week and um Yeah, it's that's going to be one of my one of my first in person Events, especially it's I think it's the first long one like standard one But I think you know, it'll be good because it is long and that way we get to know each other All of that But it is different. Yeah So you have four you have like your laptop and then three monitors up just just two monitors At home I just have one because My husband got a full-time job, but he's working for a university. So he doesn't have any Like auxiliary stuff and that was those were things that we bought when I first Started working remote. So he he talked to me out of one of the monitors, which I suppose is allowed That's understandable. Yeah, how selfless of me Hi, Chris morning morning Chris, do you think are there? Well, can you think of things that we might want to say at the end or the beginning that are sort of housekeeping kinds of things like One thing that I realized is that Excuse me. We have to send this these people the agenda with the details and also that They we have not yet told them that we're starting at 845 and not nine o'clock And so, um, I think Um What else what I was thinking is is to say it today to say that today and then say if that's a problem for you Just email us or email me and so we can figure something out something like that I always remind people with the Mesa lab to it takes 20 minutes to walk from the parking lot to Whatever If you get there at 840 you're gonna be 15 minutes late I love that 20 minutes. It is definitely longer than three or four minutes. Yeah Yeah, Val. I think that's a good, um That the reminder and then sending out because there's the pre-reading and then there's the Agenda and they should both be sent. I mean, uh, since Um, Adriana sent the pre-reading I think Yeah, can we get all that stuff out today so they've got time to look at it Yeah, although the agenda we have to just I have to just make it look a little like You know not include everything but that won't take long Okay. Yeah, if that can go out, uh, you know Yeah today after the session. Yeah, right exactly that would be great And then maybe just make sure those who have travel they have to you know that their travel is all set that they Yeah, I actually emailed them yesterday. Okay, great. Um, I only heard back from one but then Did I tell you I don't remember if I shared this that one person got called is has been selected for jury duty What a drag. No, what a drag Ah, and she so she she thinks she it may go into next week. It's like talk about bad timing for Yeah, we'll see we'll just see we'll hope hope for the best. Yeah, it gets resolved Good morning everybody I think the only time people are actually selected for jury duty is when like they literally Do not have the time for it, you know, like there's But otherwise they're like no, you know each of this time and they actually don't want to do it I have something they want to do just give folks a few more minutes to join Yeah Yes, it's not even nine yet. I'm just I'm just eager and excited to be here this morning Lots of coffee I went I went out with my dog today. I tried it out for the first time this hyperdog of ours On a leash but riding my bike so that actually give him more exercise her more exercise And she did great My younger brother is in his residency for medical school there. I guess he's a doctor now, so he's not in school anymore, but him and his fiance is also her first year in residency and they got this High high high energy retriever mix and it is the worst behavior I've haven't met the dog, but it'll be like up on the dining table and they're taking pictures and I'm like What Yeah, tell them to get a trainer because I waited too long with with the stock and I did find one and she's really good But I wish we'd started yet earlier Like younger age Yeah, you kind of have to do it all when they still don't really haven't gone through the ranking phase or anything yet Yeah Welcome folks Happy tuesday Just give it until maybe one or two after the hour great Yeah, we're still missing quite a few And if you are here and have the capacity to turn on your camera I'd love to see your smiling faces or coffee deprived faces this morning. No judgment either direction Maybe both Well, look at that Yay I want to try to Get to know people's names too Once I don't know It's helpful, you know, it's been kind of strange in this transitionary period meeting people in real life for the first time I'm like, whoa, you're taller than I expected or like I didn't know you had a side profile Or where's your name tags? Yeah, like, oh, I know that face really well We are gonna have name tags the handwritten ones next week. So Probably should use those the first couple of days until we really don't know each other's names Yep, it's funny. And if anybody has questions about next week, feel free to Ask or email or put it in the chat We will be sending you a more detailed agenda later today And so that will give you more of an idea of what we're doing and where it'll all be all of it will be in the Mesa lab and as Devin pointed out a few minutes ago that Just a heads up. It takes a good 20 minutes to walk from your car up to the base That's an exaggeration, but it does take time. It's it's a bit of a haul and so Just build that into your your schedule Okay, if it's okay with you and chris Val, let's go ahead and get started and we'll get folks caught up as they come in But we do have quite a bit to cover today And I know I met most of you last week in your orientation But if you've forgotten or if we for some reason haven't met yet My name is Devin Duncan and I'm the talent and learning development lead within Ucars HR and Today we're going to be talking about the fundamentals of leadership. What is leadership? How do we define it? And so think of this as kind of a 30 000 foot view of leadership and Different components of this you'll learn more about throughout the program But we're looking at this from a really broad perspective today And so my learning objectives for you all are first to explore the qualities of great leaders And next to understand the different types of power and leadership And so what we're going to cover is what does great leadership look like some myths and realities of leadership Reflections on leadership skills in science specifically and then different types of power and leadership which I'm really looking forward to and I would love to hear a hey, hello If you want to come off mute for a second and say good morning to your fellow learners Good morning, everybody Morning Good morning Good morning It's nice to hear people's people's voices Okay, so where we're going to start today is um thinking about When you consider a leader that you admire and this could be someone within the organization it could be Someone you know a professor or a political leader or a social movement leader or however you want to consider that What qualities do they possess and what do they do and I'm actually going to ask you all to Share your responses on this jam board and Monica I will be sharing a pdf of this as well as our responses. We're doing a couple different jam board type activities And I'm going to double check everyone can Let me reassure my screen as well So I'm going to ask you to Answer that these two questions. So when you think about the leader you admire what qualities do they possess and what do they do So the qualities and traits would be in this darker blue Section and the behaviors and actions would be in this kind of teal section and you can just add sticky notes And okay, great people are familiar. Um And there are a few pages so if if one of the pages gets filled up don't feel like we need to cram all of them into one I would love to Play some music if folks are okay with that, but if you are not if you can't focus with music playing Would you send me a quick message? No No problem at all We'll do this for about 10 minutes So I'm curious when you're looking through your colleagues responses. Do you notice any themes? I think there's a lot of like emotion and perhaps like Like how they're in control of those emotions Totally emotional intelligence is an important aspect of leadership What else I think that a lot of it has to do with um rather than being Like overtly dominant. Um in any given situation and demonstrating leadership and that kind of maybe more um like somewhat Maybe what can be construed as aggressive fashion showing leadership through receptivity um And things like modesty and active leading and kind of that like implicit Like helping a team to go towards their aims and goals if that makes sense Totally, it's like you're reading ahead in my presentation. Um after our break today, we're going to go into More detail about different leadership styles because there isn't a one-size-fits-all approach to leadership When looking through this how many of these qualities traits behaviors and actions are um A scientific skill set or a technical skill set none I'm reading the chat that wasn't that came off this Not many right. Yeah, I think some of these we could Align with science, but it's it's more related to the collaborative side of science, right? Where we're already working with other folks I just point that out because I think it's interesting to consider um What how we approach leadership and a lot of times we're put into Leadership roles because we're really excellent at our given discipline and it takes Just as much effort to learn about, you know interacting with others and motivating teams and Leading with kindness and kind of all these what we some people call soft skills I prefer people skills because they're actually pretty hard. Um, they're just not hard science, right? Any Thoughts about that observation or disagreements have one question sure bell When from what you know when you see leaders who let's say have are strong in these qualities But maybe don't have as much expertise as the people they're supervising um And yet and there's a kind of an issue of like respect that's can happen Where people the people who are more technically skilled maybe don't respect the The leader as much but um, do you think that it can work out pretty well anyway? You know, I think a lot of leadership is situational um And so if the team is struggling to respect someone who doesn't have the same technical background As a leader, I think that would be their responsibility to figure out What knowledge am I missing and how can I still demonstrate my effectiveness and that could be as a support role that could be helping with project management? um, but I think the There's not necessarily like a sweeping answer to that and chris. I see your hand up and carlos. I also saw that you unmuted I didn't know if you had anything to share. Well, I was thinking about what something to say, but you were saying You know something pretty similar. Um, I see a leader as a, uh, you know My perspective is a leader doesn't have to know everything His team knows a leader should be able to coordinate and I didn't to me and identify um, you know, his teams, um Fortes And then kind of coordinate those teams Um, however, I do I can see how like, you know Your team might not have the respect for you if you don't have the understanding or the capacity to Do what they do but as How I see it is The leader should allow their team to do what they do best Um, therefore he cannot be the best of everything You know, they do Yep, your your team can't be there. There's a quote. That's like, um You can't be Everything all at once or something but your team can you can't be perfectly well-rounded But your team can I think that's what it is. Chris Devin, I think I wanted to add a little slightly different perspective here I mean, I think in this exercise we're talking about generic aspects of leadership, but in any particular situation Subject knowledge I think is important to a point. Uh, for instance Uh, I don't think I would be That effective to lead a team of software engineers In developing a large software engineering engineering project just because that's not my background and I and I think, you know We do need to recognize that some amount of of that expertise is very helpful in guiding where the team is going Well, like you said, it doesn't have to be all encompassing. You don't have to know everything that everybody knows But I do think it's really helpful. So In a situation dependent Thanks, Chris um And then one assumption that I'm making in today's session is that leadership can exist at all levels of the organization So we're not just looking at formal leadership where You know, I'm serving as a supervisor or I'm the project lead or I'm the project manager We're really looking at You know, what are leadership characteristics that can be applied throughout the organization? And so you all should be able to take away some ideas from today and start implementing them into Your work where you are right now. It's not something in the distant future Okay So I'm curious if you could share in the chat. What are some common myths that we may hold about leadership So a couple examples could be leaders are always on top leaders are born The loudest people in the room are the best leaders Somebody who's more senior in the team is a leader leaders are extroverts The leadership is about results leaders control others Their decisions are always the best. Woof. Yeah Leaders have to be overtly dominant No one complains. Everyone must be happy There's this magic leadership trait that some people have and others don't What else? leaders are tall I think historically a lot of male associated qualities are taken to be markers of leaders totally So I think these are some great examples and What I what I would like for you all to take away is that oh here we go here somewhere leaders Must have their stuff together all the time. Wow, can you imagine if that was the case? That'd be a very stressful job leaders have all the answers Leaders are never stressed. They're just so easy going chill go with the flow nothing wrong So I like this idea of thinking as leadership as a personal approach Instead of a positional approach So it's how you interact with others and motivate others and share ideas brainstorm ideate generate solutions That are tenants of good leadership That the people come first to leaders because to good leaders because without people who are you leading? We're not quite at the place where we have robots that are following us around like underlings, but Yeah Leaders never doubt. These are all great really great observations So what we're going to do next is we're going to spend some time in breakout rooms together And I'd love for you all to discuss the article that valla sent out as pre-work Here is a link to the article if you didn't have a chance to read it beforehand. It's pretty Pretty short. So I think you could skim and get caught up with the group And then I have these instructions on a google sheet And I'm going to close these real quick valve Yeah, sorry No worries Oh dang it Let me give you access to that. Okay Okay, if you refresh the page you should have Access to it now Um, and I'd like for you just to discuss these two questions So our leadership skills critical to scientific research And if so why and then in what ways have you seen good leadership make a difference in your area of research And those can be examples from From your current role or from grad school or wherever And we're going to send you all In breakout rooms for about 15 minutes Shall I go ahead and start creating them? Um, I think I've Got them ready to go. Okay, and I should have given you a more heads up film. Sorry about that And you all will get a minute countdown when it's time to come back and so once it says come back You don't have to immediately hop back. You can finish your thoughts And then we'll debrief as a large group Okay, any questions before we send you on your way And because you're all newer into this cohort experience I'd love for you to introduce yourself again and which lcpo you work in and maybe your job role chris Devin so Are folks supposed to enter comments in the google doc or it's just it's just there for reference It's just for instructions. Yeah, okay, right. So, okay, good Okey dokes Well, I will see you all back here Oops, hold on I want to make sure we have enough people in every room Okay, I'll see you all back here in about 15 minutes Patty Okay, that's okay shoes Okay, thanks. Sorry Devin. Um, I had talked to paul about doing it, but I didn't talk to you about it It's no worries So so when I when I did go in there normally when I when I click recreate it shows It puts up the names of everybody and this time it didn't Which is why I did open rooms. Was that because you were also doing it? No, when you do recreate you have to decide like how many Rooms you want to open and then I always do assign participants instead of Manually assign participants because if it's manually assigned then you have to do it I don't know what was different like I I did that earlier before before we started any of this and That's what came up. But this time it didn't It didn't when I pressed recreate it didn't it just had the eight rooms, but no names and It didn't ask me how many rooms or if I wanted to assign them in this way that way Oh, well Guess some kind of glitch and yeah, zoom kind of changes around quite a bit too with like What what everything looks like? So you think it makes a difference that that I'm not a host.  It should be fine with co-host permissions I don't know Hey, hi patty if you're there Hi, hi patty. I was in the library yesterday and um, I think Um, let's try to remember I saw some books I saw a book that I don't know if if it was I can't remember now It was your name that was on the sticky note, but it was on the pickup for hold held books And it was called dei deconstructed Is that was that one that you had taken up? um Requested that might have been um A list from a book from a list that I asked the library to purchase. Oh, yeah, it looked like there were two of them Yeah, oh, that's exciting. Um Yeah, because one of them, um, I remember I requested it was a I recently published book on analytics for dei measuring dei So that's one of them, maybe yeah, this one from the little inside cover It sounded like it was among other things. I think talking about How how to do it badly like what what can go wrong? And um, so I actually I was trying to use up some audible credits and I picked that one because Like it was read really well Yeah Yeah, yeah It's that it's up there. It says for pickup in case you go to the mason lab. It's a little white table kind of Near the well middle of the entrance area Oh, cool. I might go this thursday After the opiate the retreat in the morning on thursday, and maybe I'll just swing up to the office. That's a good idea. Yeah Yeah, I I'm trying to put together Evaluation textbook library For our team Yeah, so that if you like You know have a question about, you know, how do I do this or what's the method on, you know, how to do that? And there's a physical book you can check out Oh, that's great. Yeah Do you do you have an office now and where is it? No, I don't have one No, I um, I signed up for a cubicle actually Last week and Paula emailed me today to say that What I signed up for wasn't going to exist I thought it was kind of funny in a way and sad in a way. Um, no, not yet I see. Okay. Yeah Well, you know, the library incidentally has this really beautiful A counter bar that's got power that looks out the window That's the back of the library that is potentially a good place to work Yeah, I really enjoy being in the library. I find it really comfortable for me. Yeah. Yeah, it's just really My serene That's a good word for it. Yeah, open and bright and Yeah, simple uncluttered Yeah, yeah And and then I was thinking about I think you suggested a time to get together a date And I I think march 22nd or something and so I was gonna I was gonna sorry. I hadn't gone back to you You've been so busy You've been so busy. No worries. You you can email me whenever you can Well, I do want to do that Yeah, I'm finally Finally done like literally like last night, I think with this proposal for the ru network and Yeah, to rewrite the proposal twice. So basically wrote three proposals The first time Rebecca, I mean it needed it But Rebecca gave me feedback that it was it was too heavy on the dei and not enough about What the basics are of what what the project does? Yeah, and so I had to include that stuff It's like, oh, yeah A lot of the work here and then so I rewrote it and then When I was on vacation in big quotes Chris Davis read it and he put one little comment. He said this kind of reads like a list And it was and so I basically rewrote the whole thing again and so I think I think it's pretty good now, but it was definitely Yeah, I'm really looking forward to not having that on my desk on my plate. I bet yeah Hi, Daniel Hi, sorry. I'm a little late. Oh, yeah. Okay. So, um, let's just see I don't know if I can move you into a oh, yes, I'm going to move you Into a let's see first. I'm going to show you what the Um prompts are for the breakout group Um, it's we're talking about leadership So in the chat, there's a link um, and We were talking about qualities that people Like in have in a leader and how does that manifest as a behavior? And then the prompts for the breakout groups Which are about five minutes into a 10 a 15 minute time Um are in that google doc Do you see that can you access it? Yep, I see it. Thank you. Okay. So, um You okay if I if I pop you into a room Yeah, that should be good. Just pop me into one of the rooms and I can introduce myself All right, thanks Hey, bill everything. Okay. It is. Thanks. Okay as it turned out Devin did the breakout groups and when I was trying to do it Before she did it Maybe she don't but anyways, it didn't do the things that it had done earlier like pop up and say, you know Do you how many rooms do you want you want this done manually? So I was getting confused. I'm sorry Oh, it's not your no she's helping this other meeting and I no no no she See, I forgot to talk to her about it before we started And so she actually was planning to do it and then she I don't know if she would but anyways, so then she ended up So it's all good. Hi patty How are you? I'm good pop. How are you this morning? Good All right. Well, let me know if you need anything. I'm okay. I've got my ear in here. Okay. All right He's the other Val Oh I forgot that we're recording. Oh, I'll cut this out. Okay I'm glad you mentioned that because now I'll remember to Edit that edit this and any other long Breakouts So with with this particular program What what are you thinking for evaluating? Like for yeah for that for the evaluation piece. Yeah, I was thinking of looking at the the survey that we gave participants last year and There are some questions that might not be applicable anymore because about the format And hopefully we're using a lot of the questions, but updating it to fit this this version Okay, and I would um, it's on my list to Get that in a google doc to share with you Chris and Devin and to get your ideas on how to new questions To add to the survey and then have that ready in time to submit to human subjects committee Okay. Yeah, and then I think um, I think it would also be nice to interview the organizers again to ask, you know, how did it go this time? You know compared to last time and any further suggestions for Right ways to improve as an organizer things like that Yeah, and it's different really different because we have this in-person four-day piece which thankfully Scott and I have done these before so I think, you know, if you hadn't I think if we hadn't it would be a lot because it's like, oh, yeah We have to invite everybody to these, you know, like given the dates and times things like that in the rooms Yeah, and we I think we we did try to design things in a way that addressed interests and concerns of the last crew last cohort Yeah, yeah, which I think is great and Yeah, I would love to ask the cohort questions about the in-person portion to see how that worked for them Do you want to come to any of the events or the lunch? I mean, I should send you the agenda And then if you want to go to lunches, if you tell us in advance then like sort of soon I can tell Scott You know because he's discounting people but you can go through the line at the cafeteria and Same for you Devin and have your lunch paid for you to say, oh, this is with the DLP But you know, if you wanted to join and however, I don't know if it's if it's like can be informal Informally interviewing if you sit with people at lunch to ask them questions. Can you do that? I might be able to do that. I mean, sorry. I meant like hypothetically not in terms of time. Is that like allowable as a as an evaluator? If It is allowable And I can put it as part of the protocol. Well, no, sorry. I was just thinking because it's next week It wouldn't It wouldn't be publishable data. It would be for like her internal improvement part Because it it wouldn't be part of the new a j Protocol for human subjects, but it could be you could use that information to help you write the survey I could yeah, okay. That's cool. Yeah, yeah, and um I Might be able to join next week. I just got scheduled for an outpatient procedure on on monday So, um, I am not quite sure how I'm gonna feel I mean outpatient today can include like kidney surgery. I mean, this is crazy Yeah I am getting stitches and I'm not Sure, how I'm gonna feel I've never had stitches before. Oh, wow. Yeah Yeah, hopefully it'll be not too long too bad for recovery. Yeah, I I hope so too. Yeah But I'll let you know, um Is it okay if I let you know kind of short notice? You don't even yeah I mean if you if you can great, but if you don't even let us know just come Okay, yeah, I'm gonna bring folks back. Okay. Sorry. I meant to give you a heads up and I Sorry, I didn't Welcome back So you pop in there for a few seconds Devin I love an eavesdrop during the breakout session. I should have given you a warning Yeah, in real life, you know, you can see the person approaching button zoom Little horror film. Yeah surprise facilitator. That could be a great horror film By the way, the breakout rooms don't get recorded at all like Only the main room is recorded during the breakout rooms and then that gets cut from the video edited from the video Welcome back Thank you for letting me Meet eavesdrop. I should have given you a warning before I hopped in there So if it didn't startle anyone but sounded like you were having some great conversations I didn't mean to interrupt you Val did you have something you wanted to share? Oh, I wanted to see if I could um take a quick screen screenshot of everybody Who happens to be on screen number one if you could turn on your camera and smile and Just so as a little memento Be great. Okay, I will tell you when Okay, say cheese And then let me see page two. I'll do it again the second page of people Thanks smile Thank you. Sorry Devin No worries. That's a fun memento to have um So I'd love to hear how those conversations went and if you had any insights you feel comfortable sharing with The large group we'll just hear from a few folks Yeah, Monica Yes, I'm happy to share initially um on behalf of my group and then if anybody wants to um add To I guess my two main observations one was that um With respect to the first question we thought well, it was a little bit awkwardly um Phrased because a lot of the people in our group Don't do like basic scientific research But then we thought well science, especially atmospheric science now Seems to be this kind of multifaceted highly collaborative endeavor And so kind of reconceptualizing um the scientific space or landscape as that then Leadership skills do seem like they're critical because then you're Managing across disciplines across communities. Um, you need to be an effective communicator You need to also be able to negotiate and facilitate across different communities And different languages things like that. Um, and so thinking about it in that way Um is important and then with respect to the second question one of the things that came out um Was that uh, there's a certain importance in having a leader that Is willing to delegate especially in those collaborative environments To people who have the subject expertise and don't Feel the necessity to I guess you could say micromanage everything um, and so having trust in your team members being willing to delegate and then That seems to um And Carlos brought this up that seems to require that a person has a certain degree of confidence. Um Or high self-esteem that they're willing to admit that they might not be capable of tackling something and they need to delegate it out to somebody who's more of an expert um I don't know if that characterizes everything that was discussed across our team members, but I'll I'll let we I had Carlos Ivana, um and um I'm not seeing the other individual on the screen anymore. Ivana gave a thumbs up Okay, cool Yeah, please Yeah in our group We kind of had a similar conversation as Monica in that in this field because it's become so multidisciplinary It seems that you do need those leaderships, but there are fields that are still On their own doing Just science in their own field and there are people who are very successful there that don't necessarily need Those leadership skills, but not having those skills is impacting the team members. It's not that it's not Affecting anyone and they're able to do their science But it's at the cost of people not feeling good about what they're doing losing their self confidence or not You know being led properly I don't know if the other team members wanted to Add to that that were in my group that we talked about Yeah, and I was thinking there was something else we discussed about as part of that was Noticing oftentimes Maybe like a generational differences on how that's treated That came up quite a bit Thank you. And you know, I hear kind of a little bit of like a chicken versus egg problem, right of people need to have some level of Expertise to get into these leadership type roles so that they understand the problem, right? And if they're lacking some of those interpersonal skills, it's going to create more work for everyone Right, if we have high performing teams and lots of trust and direction and clear expectations and help for each other Then it's easier to focus on what the problem is, right? But if we have Kind of the opposite of that where there's a lot of conflict and it's not about Something work related, but it's interpersonal and people are undermining each other Then it's really hard to focus on the problem because the problem has become the team, right? other observations Yeah, don't Hi, this is don't from room five. We have third team see has a million and myself We have discussed something similar to what a other folks just mentioned, but Another topic is that um With a good leadership, um, we can organize like a large group of people to achieve goals That can never be achieved by a small group of people. So we think this is Especially important in nowadays when we are encountering all kinds of challenges, especially that needs to lack as a global efforts to address so Just add up to that Totally kind of the sum is greater than the parts philosophy That's becoming exceptionally true in atmospheric science, right? It's so just interdisciplinary and it's just going to continue to be more so that way Tracy Yeah, this is more for question two, but our maybe related question two, but our group discussed a lot about How how a good leader also wants to Help you grow they want you to succeed and they'll push People towards something a common goal and they need to know or they need to understand Each of the team members and what they want to achieve as well. So that was more towards number two And that kind of formal or informal sponsorship and mentorship that leaders can provide Does anyone have an example they want to share from question two? Okay. I'm not going to drag it out of you Although sometimes I will um, I'm going to start sharing my screen again And We're going to go on a break in just a second but I do want to talk through this skills required for management success and This is really for supervisors But I think we can easily apply it to any leadership role and it's kind of driving home the point that we've had I think That's been over all of this conversation from val's question initially of how important our technical skills to Leadership and vice versa And so I really like this model. Um, so let's talk through this So the first level we have is this individual contributor Which would be I think most of the folks in this room where you're not supervising anyone And you may have some leadership roles in projects But you're not formally supervising anyone else and the majority of your time when you're an individual contributor Is spent in technical work with a little bit of interpersonal work when you're Working with your colleagues or collaborating, but but a good chunk of it is technical expertise The next would be supervisory management. So this would be someone who supervises a team But does not supervise other supervisors if that makes sense. So it's just the first level supervisor And they spend time About half their time in technical, you know, about half their time in interpersonal and they just start to dip into this strategic visioning of where are we going but for the most part are still Implementing ideas that have been decided at a higher level and are spending a lot of time working on team cohesion And making sure that the technical aspect of things are moving forward, right? The next level is middle management. So these would be supervisors of supervisors And these folks spent most of their time in interpersonal Management so they're Looking at how the team's functioning helping address any problems helping remove obstacles and barriers Which sometimes we don't think of as being interpersonal, but a lot of times it is A little bit of time in technical, right? There's they still have some of that expertise and a good chunk of time in strategic visioning and planning and thinking about where we're going in the next Five months six years 60 years And then finally we have executive management. So for this we're thinking like Lab directors and up Um where they spend very little time I think unfortunately for a lot of our great minds that we have at this level on the technical research aspect It might be projects that they're super interested in or You know just attending conferences and staying up to date and learning about what their lab is researching but it's The bulk of their time is spent in interpersonal Relationships and strategic and this is not like a one-size-fits-all There may be some lab directors who spend way more time in technical And this is the model that's used across all types of disciplines and workforces and so Um, you know, this will be applied differently depending on who it is Um, but i'm curious. Have you seen this in your own work? yeah And how many of you have kind of noticed that shift if you've served in any type of leadership capacity From technical to interpersonal Heavy any observations or Anecdotes about this Yeah, it's an epi Yeah, I guess maybe more of a question. I don't know but um You know once kind of we start proposal writing that sort of I feel gets into the strategic area to some extent Um, and so maybe you're not necessarily managing people yet So you may be in the individual contributor category, but You are You know leading your own proposals or contributing to proposals and kind of do have a say somewhat in the strategic Category so Just a just a thought I don't know. I don't know it was a question or a thought. I'm not sure But just something to to ponder there Well, and I think a lot of the nature of the science we're doing here Is is future focused as well, right? So there has to be strategy in in all of this. So that's a good point maybe for You car we dragged this yellow line So so that it hits down here I'll just a little bit on the individual contributor because there is some strategic work going on there Any other thoughts Yeah, shelby Yeah, so when I I decided to start helping out with esd um The help desk over a new car um, I found that It it wasn't necessarily that They didn't have like a lack of technical knowledge They they really just needed a leader or like a guide To help them in the right place or to the right places so Uh, I quickly found that like Me just coming in with my technical knowledge wasn't wasn't necessarily what they needed and that kind of set my My sights on like, oh, I need to learn how to how to manage and how to lead Um, so it was a really interesting shift that I saw when I was like, oh, I this is a kind of a different skill set that I need Really besides technical Um, and that's kind of why I'm here honestly I love that and I think that's a need that's been identified at our organization We have a new supervisor training called lead that my office puts on and we always we tell them We're supposed to spend like anywhere from 30 to 50 percent of your time Supervising and that could be removing obstacles. It could be one-on-ones. It could be collaborating with your direct report It could be managing conflict like it's not just all One-on-one meetings and people are always like, whoa, that is so much time and it is But that is kind of what happens as you move further Up the chain as you spend a lot of time Managing other people in a lot less time in the technical skills Any other thoughts Yeah, Heather Yeah, so, um, are we at all in this course going to talk about the transitions between these levels? And I mostly bring this up because in the past I've had supervisors that They were promoted because they really excelled tactically But they didn't necessarily meet all the skills needed for On the interpersonal side of things to be as effective as possible And so I'm curious if we're going to talk about how to address those Potential deficits as you move up through these different levels of management So we won't be explicitly talking about the step to supervisor that would be in the lead program But I will say based on Heather's comment. That's kind of a challenge. I have for you all is to think about Why are these skills important and how would these be important in your next level? career step Of how could these use you how could you use these skills to Support your team at an individual contributor level and how might you use them differently at a supervisory level or a team lead level? I think that's a great I'm going to challenge you all to to kind of keep that in the back of your mind Okay, well we are coming up right on the hour and I would love to give folks the opportunity Oh chris, I'd love to hear from you before I give folks the opportunity to water balance Just just to amplify a bit on on heather's comment That you know next week A lot of what we're going to be doing is really connected to this interpersonal space And so for all of you, I think this is a really great opportunity To if you haven't had a lot of training in this in this area to to really think about some of these issues because This there's a reason why it's such a concentrated effort next week because it is such a huge aspect of of leadership And so you may not see exactly the topic all you know I mean, I think there are a lot of topics and we're trying to cover a lot of ground here But just that emphasis means that this is this is really important. So at least You can have that perspective. Hey, yeah, how do we translate it to everybody else? Maybe who's that maybe has not had the benefit of going through this training or a similar training I think that is a really good question for the organization because that blue Bar in the middle is really critical to all these levels Thanks Thanks chris Um, so I'll say this video it will keep you sitting here because it's really fun So if you need to use the rest room or get more water I'd say get up before I press play because otherwise you will be sitting in your seat But let's take about five minutes and when we return We'll hop into some leadership styles Welcome back if you can give me another like a thumbs up or turn your camera back on so I know that you're here And I'm sorry if you didn't get a water balancing break because you were Captivated by Video I don't I want to know how I can get um Get working a hydraulic press to be part of my job description and HR So if you have any ideas, I'd love to do a quick brainstorm session on that Okey dokes I think most folks are back. So we're going to go ahead and move on um, and so we're going to transition into Uh talking about different types of power and I'll I'll start this off by saying that there's there's not a one size fits all approach to leadership and some of these will feel more natural to you than others I think it's good to take note of which of these you're like Yeah, I could totally see myself doing that and which ones you're like yick Who would lead like that? Why would anyone do that? because there will be times in any type of role where you need to pull out all the tools in your tool belt Even the ones that feel like using your non-dominant hand to tighten A screw with right and so uh, just just take note of those. Um And kind of what like these different flavors of leadership look like Um, okay, so the first type of power that we see is coercive power So this is when we're forcing someone to do something against their will or imposing consequences um And so this most times can lead to fear dissatisfaction Resentment and this is the least effective type of power But can you think of an opportunity where this might be necessary? So this this sort of thing might only really be necessary in the most extreme of circumstances So say you have a member of your team belittling Um another member of your team, you know some of that coercive power You know after trying everything else you say Hey, this needs to be a discussion with hr This is not acceptable behavior And so coercive power is only really good when At least in the workplace when someone's overstepped all the boundaries and you kind of have to lay down The rules and say this is not we don't do this here. We don't belittle other co-workers. We don't Create unsafe uncollaborative environments Uh, thanks, Heather. Um, don guys you have your hand up as well Yeah, I think this can be sometimes necessary and helpful Um when someone like get a distracted rather than walking really toward the final goal So sometimes for example by putting a deadline kind of a coercive That's kind of helpful to prevent people from being distracted Yeah, and I think we'll look through some of these other options where a deadline could fit in I think when I think of for coercive power is like safety issues Right if someone's about to get hurt then you do need to be really firm and say don't do that Right, I think it's a great some great examples here of sometimes you do need to be A little bit more direct with feedback They see samia in the chat said with kids and monica said perhaps when dealing with antagonistic team members This is required Right, and so I would say because this is the least effective type of Power you can use this isn't something that you want at the top of your tool belt because it's just going to make people resent you Right if you're just flexing that power muscle all the time do what I say do what I say do what I say Number one your biceps is going to get really sore number two people are going to Stop listening to you saying do what I say do what I say do what I say because you say that all the time The next type of power is reward And so this you can think of as giving something of value in return of a request And so this can have mixed results In can still be a least What the second least effective method so this would be You know if you Get that paper written then I will let you Do the early career leadership program right those two things aren't necessarily Equal or interrelated and that can also drive some resentment for folks, but it could be you know you have to Get this x amount of funding brought in or you have to finish this project before we can do that Where it can be more effective, but we have better approaches Any questions or ideas of when reward might be an effective type of power Who I see monica in the situation where there's no momentum for a project or a team is strongly lacking in motivation Okay, let's move on to the third, which is legitimate So this is based on a role or position and so this power stays with the position Not the person so you know If chris is my supervisor, he would have that legitimate power But if I changed roles or chris changed roles He would no longer have that legitimate power, right because it's it's positional. Um, and so the ability to persuade others is weak on its own just based on the position But it can be a foundation for what we're going to talk about in the next three layers of power That makes sense to everyone awesome any questions so far Also awesome Okay, the fourth type of power is referent. Um, and so this is uh respect or or having similar values being charismatic And this can garner loyalty And I think a lot of times we think of this as like some people have it Um and others don't but this is something that you can cultivate. So this is You know working on your rapport building skills. Um, a lot of that emotional intelligence we were talking about To where people Have this sense that they want to follow what you're doing I think it's easy to think of political leaders in this kind of lens where You know people just believe in Their good intent if they agree with um leave your bad intent if they disagree with them Um, can anyone think of examples of when this might be an effective power? type So for me, I think of like change management um Whenever we have some new initiative coming down Uh kind of getting buy-in and really painting the picture for what it's going to look like Um, you know, I think of with the big rem project This is what the future of work's going to look like at yukar And getting buy-in is not always easy, right? And so having some of that charisma and positivity and painting the picture is really important in those types of situations The next type of power is informational power. So this is having knowledge that others don't And maybe the ability for that information to affect change and so this can be used to measure and improve tasks processes or strategies and Um This is one of the best types of power if used well, but we don't want to be a gatekeeper necessarily, right? That can breathe distrust and resentment But sharing that knowledge kind of the sponsorship and mentorship we were talking about earlier Can be a really great way to get buy-in from staff Can you think of an example when this has worked? Uh, maybe in your role or you've seen a supervisor Higher use it. No, we need to do some stretches after that break. Y'all are quiet Okay, I see chris and then we'll go to timothy Tim why don't you go ahead? Okay, thanks chris. Um, I don't know if this is a good example, but maybe It's like a group of researchers is discussing a potential methods to achieve some task And there's kind of maybe two Potential paths forward and and one person Perhaps has more experience or more information about the topic and they believe that their method is kind of a better path forward Is that an example of this? I don't know Yeah, I think that's really close I would say that informational would be maybe they've you know, you're trying to get a grant for a project and this person has successfully received a grant from the Granting organization previously and they know that they're going to want, you know Three types of information in the proposal and you wouldn't know that unless you'd been rejected or approved for a grant before And so they're able to inform the group of like actually this is going to give us a better chance of Getting that. Um but I I think That's like the next level of informational. I think yours would be just a touch Below that but but great insights tim Thanks Devin, I wanted to point out a challenge with informational power in that uh There's often especially at different levels of leadership certain information that For whatever reason often it's policy. Sometimes it's legal. Sometimes it's uh, just I don't know. I think and that's a judgment call sometimes that isn't shared and and Really can't be shared And this is a challenge because that's definitely information that people don't have and they're not There's a decision that they won't have it and so how as a leader do you balance that with the problem of you know undermining trust? Because that's what tends to happen if there's a lot of that information that isn't shared. So I think this is a really delicate Uh situation that that often comes up Yeah, I think having kind of that base level trust is important and being clear and explicit where you're able to be clear and explicit So sharing freely when you're able to and then explaining to staff why you're not able to share at that time, right? Like it's above Me i'm not part of that decision or um, I'm not a lot. I can't share this information with you yet But I want you to be prepared, you know of Giving folks if you can't give them the what at least give them some of the why but that can also be a fine line with like legal issues or employee personnel issues I think that's something that is really situational And it can be challenging, right because you may know we can't do that because We're going to have to cut half the positions in this group or something, right? Like we can't commit to this project because we're not going to have the staff But that hasn't become public knowledge yet. So how do you share that? Right, you have that informational power And you do have to be a little bit secretive about it It's a real challenge for leaders And I think if you're in that position being really clear with whoever's giving you that information What you are and aren't allowed to share with your team at this time Um gives you kind of a clear bumpers Any other? Yeah, Tracy Yeah, I was just going to say another challenge with Imparting your knowledge or your information onto another is just the time constraint Sharing all of your knowledge and stuff can often be very time consuming You can't always do that, but you can at least give them guidance and pathways And let them kind of gain some of that information And sometimes it's just getting your hands wet or your feet wet to really learn something so So it's it's not maybe imparting all of your knowledge, but at least providing some pathways for it too So just because of that challenge of having the time to do it Totally and I think in my work, that's one of our biggest Risks right now is how do we we have a bunch of people who are retiring soon or Are of retirement age at our organization and how do we transfer that rich knowledge and understanding That they have without making it burdensome and asking them to you know Basically type up an entire life's essay of this is everything I know and this is everything I've learned It's it's a great point Tracy Val Yeah, there's another kind of knowledge That I notice that my One of my bosses has shared with me over over the years informational that is um, which is keeping me up to date on sort of what's going on in the organization and You know, maybe that's some big movement like you know one of the like ram or sam. I don't Very much but So that you're not in the dark and that you start to understand how the organization works um, so for instance The two people that have supervised me in the last two years Chris and Rebecca have been on the executive committee foreign current directorate and Just getting getting information that way and and sometimes we're shocked to find out that people in other labs Don't know about some of the things that are going on and it's because those leaders those lab directors Maybe didn't share that information with people. So it's less content or technical in a sense less technically You know technical information, but more Organizational and and I find that very very helpful because learning how the organization wherever you are operates is Really good knowledge to have Yep, and I think this can go both directions, right? Individual contributors can have a lot of information That's powerful Just in the same way that senior leaders do Of understanding, you know, their positionality in the organization Okay, I do want to move on to the final type of power which is expert power So this is related to informational But this is more in those kind of technical skills instead of the interpersonal Side of information and so this is having knowledge skills and experience that others don't Um, so these two are really I think kind of hard to pull apart especially in an organization like ours Um, but this is oftentimes the most effective type of power I think if you think about a great supervisor or a great person you've worked with, um in the past Sorry, someone's trying to hop into my office Um, it's easy to think about how perhaps they've shared some of this expert knowledge with you of like, oh I have a contact there. Oh, you really want to consider this this might be a misstep. Have you considered this type of model? Does that make sense to everyone? Okay, and I see in the chat Along those lines sharing opportunities 100 percent for both informational and expert, right once you're at that expert level knowledge, um Opportunities are likely to come knocking and so thinking about where you can share share the love Okay And now I want to talk about different leadership types And so we just talked about power which is something that everyone can use At different parts of their career all parts of their career and in different situations Um, this is more of like a leadership philosophy And so the first type of leadership style. I want to talk about is results leaders So, uh, that's just what it sounds like and so someone who is really focused on the end goal And it might be a project manager or someone who knows where Where we want to get to and also knows how we need to get there Um, and really the intent is on helping others get to the results And so that's results type leaders The next is process and so these folks are really good at setting up systems and structures or like processes And flow charts so you know how to get from a to b and so they don't necessarily focus on the end goal But instead they're focused on how are we getting to the end goal? So abcdfg Etc not just a to z that makes sense Okay The third is thought and so these are people who have the ideas. Um, they're futurists or visionaries and They're good at getting people Kind of bought in on on what they see their thoughts or their ideas And so that might be something like let's explore a geoengineering and see where we can go with this And a lot of times people are drawn to this because they're the big picture thinkers and can say like this is the future We have data leaders who are really good at crunching numbers analyzing reporting visualizing They're an expert on interpreting data Social leaders and then I'm going to put people leaders because I want to differentiate these two So social leaders I think of as out and wide. So these are your natural networkers Um, they have like 1500 connections on linkedin They know everyone you like hang out with them at a conference and it's like, whoa How did you possibly meet all these people and know all this information about their grandmothers? Right. So these people are really out and wide. Um And They are a great person to to find resources for others because of their connection where people Leaders are kind of down and deep. So, um, this is focusing on developing others understanding their needs This will look like coaching or mentoring or training and really diving into that on the one on one level And I think being aware of yourself Can help you navigate situations and so um I'd be curious Are you all familiar with the annotate feature in zoom? um, so on your menu, there should be a button that you can click that says annotate and You can choose a stamp It choose like a star or a heart and I would love for you to place a stamp on The type of leader that most resonates with you We see in the chat lower left And yes, you can you can have multiple leadership styles See lots of process some social and people data So this is what I was talking about at the beginning of our session If any of these feel super icky to you or you're like, I don't think I could ever be that type of leader It's good to have that awareness because you want to make sure that you are connected to people who are that type of leader Right who can fill in for you perhaps in those types of things We don't need to be all rounded But you do need to be aware of when these might be helpful hats to wear Can't find the stamp If you are on the web app, you may not have the annotate feature, which is not a big deal um Ah It is not recently enabled, but if you're not using the Desktop client it won't work on the web app. And I don't know why They had it fixed for a while and I guess they've unfixed it um Great. Well, thank you. I also love these little stars up here on the social. That's a very social approach to stamps And then the final thing I want to say about this before we move on is that um You're not using these as labels necessarily, but rather self-awareness. So If you aren't inclined to developing processes If that's a requirement of your job or if you get in a space where you need to do that That's something to kind of be like a little Yellow flag in your head, right of like, oh, that's not my preferred type of leadership So I'm gonna have to be really aware of that as we approach this project Okay, I am going to clear Yeah delegation opportunity exactly Chris. You've got it. Um, I'm gonna clear our drawings Actually, yes, I do have to clear them. I'll save this though if we want to look at that later um Thank you for For joining me in that um Okay, so next we're going to move on to Uh another exercise In tablet Which is a little different than jam board But I like this because we're able to upvote what other people say And I would love for you um Over the next I'm going to say Five minutes so it's going to be quick five six minutes. Um to add sticky notes to each Uh column Let me pull this up. It'll be easier for me to explain it if I can show you So you can add a sticky note for and write, um Either qualities behaviors and skills you might see in this type of leader So exactly process leader could be detail oriented social leader could be um You know Networker And then if you see something that you like Go ahead and add a heart to it and we're going to spend like I said the next five Or so minutes until 10 35 or 35 after adding these points Um any questions? I know I didn't do a really great job experience Okay, I see folks Adding away so I'm going to play some music again Okay, so we're going to transition to another breakout room and Well, I've got them ready to go um In the chat you'll find another Breakout room prompt and what I'd like for you to do you're going to be in groups of about four or five Is to discuss which leadership style most resonates with you Um, and how might your preferred style contribute to scientific research excellence? Um, and then If each group could choose a reporter that would be great We're not going to be able to hear from every group but uh to have someone prepared to share out to the main group And if no one wants to be the reporter the reporter will be the person who last ate pizza And I'm always looking for recommendations. So that's That's a great way to choose a reporter Um Does anyone have any questions before I send you on your way? This is a quick breakout room You're going to have about 10 minutes seeing none hearing none. I will send you on your way okay sorry to pull us away from That exciting topic because I'm interested in that as well, but I do want to make sure we have time to reflect on Any takeaways you may have from your breakout room? Um, talked a lot about the different, you know, how hard it is to sometimes choose one leadership style um And we kind of touched on how sort of being a leader A chameleon like leader can be very useful And sometimes not having a clear leadership style is seen as a negative But we kind of discussed it as a positive Of you can adapt to various situations. You can read the room. You can see okay, is this Group on this project. Are they process oriented? Are they detail oriented? Are they big picture? You know, what needs aren't being met for this project and can I fill that? um, and that was For particularly useful for some of us um, and and that would contribute to like our research excellence by Filling in niches rather than just Having there be a hole in like the skill sets and leadership skill sets in our group Yeah, I love that and these aren't mutually exclusive So you can have multiple types that you're using at Any given time and I love that approach of thinking what type of leader does the group need at this time? um, that's great Katie Yeah, so some of the types that resonated with our group. I think that we were all kind of on the same page. So we talked about process social Uh, and the sort of distinction between social and people Resonating appreciating that there's a distinction between the one-on-one interactions versus like being in being in the network or having a lot of sustainability So we talked about how, you know, process is sort of fundamental to Scientific research and then a couple to that is also the data type so we talked about that a little bit about how that Kind of underlying scientific research and it's not always the most exciting things to do to maintain data or document or You know promote open science practices, but it's really sort of fundamental and We also sort of touched on the the cultural aspects of How's that? Thank you. Yeah, and these are dynamic as well, right? So they're playing on each other So if you find yourself naturally and kind of a social leader state they social and data leader those two Being heavily inclined towards the social leadership will impact how you approach data leadership, right and vice versa Maybe you love a personal crm. Keep track of everyone you've met at a conference business cards are your besties other questions Or observations not questions, Tim Yeah, so our group was kind of almost split into two camps One was more kind of social base and the other one was more process based but I think everyone agreed that Especially when it comes to like meetings and keeping the group on track that having more of like a thought Approach kind of big picture approach and understanding how kind of everyone is fitting and in the overall goals is really helpful To keep everybody on track Um, and if you want a pizza recommendation, I can recommend via toskana in looseville is really good I have been there in the summer. They have great food. Thank you. I would I endorse that as well Jerry Thanks, Devon. Yeah, and our group we talked about how Different leadership styles will rise and grow depending on the position that you were in in the organization and some of the Participants in the group that are more on the science side identified more with the data leadership or or Our process leadership styles And there were others in the group and I can talk to to my perspective As a student program coordinator that the people leadership style is one that I rely on more I also come from a background of hospitality and so that was built in that time and it I think it helps me be an effective program coordinator. Um, we also just wanted to say that You know, obviously not everyone within this group, although we work at NCAR and you know working atmospheric science and our system science That you know may have a some background in in science or research But those that work in education and outreach or it and others Many of these questions are posed through the lens of scientific research And we're trying to combat it from a broader perspective or from the perspective of our positions Thank you for that feedback Jerry Okay, we are going to have to wrap up because we're Right at the edge of time and I do want to give Chris and Val the opportunity to discuss what's going to happen next week But before I pass the mic over to them I would love for you If you're comfortable to share answers to these questions in the chat So the first is how is your view of leadership changed or has your view of leadership changed? And if so, how and the next is in what ways could you apply your preferred leadership style in your current environment? um, and so Uh, maybe just take one minute. You don't have to give super explicit details. I'm not looking for a smart goal Just some reflection See some great responses in the chat just a little less than one minute And if you don't answer in the chat at least answering your head, okay Okay, it looks like there's a lol. So Chris And Val I'd love to pass it over to you and thank you all. I really enjoyed our time together Looking forward to meeting you in real life next week Yeah, thank you so much Devin. That was really excellent It's such a vague term leadership and you know, it's kind of a catch-all, but it's great to have you break down a lot of these things Thank you So, um, yeah, so this is our Last time seeing you virtually before we meet up in person next Monday and So about six people I think are are coming into town from from somewhere else and hopefully let us know if you need any additional help with travel or anything but Yeah, so we'll see you on Monday morning. One thing that we I will send out a more detailed agenda later today Um to give you more information about where we'll be exactly which it'll be everything will be at the mcar mesa lab and the only change really is that And if you really can't do this don't worry, but is that we're asking you to to be there at 8 45 instead of nine And we will have coffee there in the morning You will have lunch provided through the cafeteria through the line and And then we will wrap up by three on each day So we have some really terrific guest speakers and facilitators And we'll be working somewhat in a few different spaces but Largely in the mcar library, which has been renovated. It is very spacious and serene As well as the daemon room. I think or maybe it's just the main seminar room um In any case, um, one of the things that I would like to do is just offer that That I think will and I are going to put together a little sign-up sheet for if you're interested in going out for dinner Together with others on let's say Monday and Tuesday nights, especially if you're from out of town Is we will put up a couple of Types of food thematic thematically and then you can Organize let that way like you love Indian food or something like that And then that's on your own dime, but it just it's really nice to be able to get together like that Chris, do you have anything to add? Val, I was going to just make sure we all get in there in the right place on on Monday first thing Are we saying that we're meeting Kind of by the coffee, which is going to be the outer daemon room, right? Yes, that's right. Thank you. Yeah, so we'll meet in the outer daemon room of the mesa lab, which is upstairs and You know, hopefully you'll know where it is. But if you don't just ask ask around It's up. It's upstairs from the main entry Of the ncar mesa lab And it's the first session in the main seminar room I think it is I'll double check, but I think so Yeah, so and everything next week will be at the mesa lab. So we noticed We were commenting on the fact that If you if you haven't been to the mesa lab or or you go there very infrequently it takes a while to get from the parking lot into the building so Allow that few minutes of extra time for that and lunch is As I understand you just have to say early career leadership program when you get to the cashier so that they know to put it on that account and These are going to be Not really working lunches. They're going to just we hope that you'll kind of Gather with each other and have lunch together But you know, you don't have to talk about you can talk about anything you want. It's not It's not required Yeah, thanks and devon put some instructions to the devon to the daemon room in the chat So that's that's all we have If you have any questions and you want to stay on the line, I can Stay on for a few minutes But otherwise, um, please take good care of yourselves this week and We'll be happy to see you in person on monday And thanks again devon. Um, kate. No, sorry.  Yeah, I just you you mentioned it takes a while to get from the parking lot. Um, how long Oh, no, it's we were joking about it. Oh, it's it's like an x. It's like a five minute It just I've I've been I've been on the verge of being late a lot of times and so that extra few minutes seems to matter Yeah, it's it's just different from, you know, most places you go when you arrive in the parking lot You feel like time-wise you're pretty much there, but it's it's a little bit of a little bit of an uphill walk Good exercise with some stairs Gotcha. Okay. I see what you mean And then it's windy sometimes too, so Yeah And because there was somebody else had a question, but I guess their hand is down


Hey, my man, beautiful inspiration.  Nick, you inspire me, and I'm almost 50 years old. You know, you're everybody. Wait, hold on. Wait, hold on. Everybody, dog. Oh, wait, wait, hold on. What's your job? Wait, hold on.


Welcome folks, we at the Dow Industries finished up $398, NASDAQ up $149, S&Ps are up $50. That's a gain inside the NASDAQ folks of 1.3%, 1.3% in the S&P and 1.1% in the Dow Industries. Gold. Gold contract, flat $17.55, we had Silver up 21 cents, $21.28 an ounce, Light Sweet Group up $1.81, $1.12, a barrel, notes and bonds, a 10-year note, up 6 ticks, trading 112, 16, a 30-year, up a full point plus 2 ticks at $126.17, so now the 10-year folks is trading yield 3.765, the high for the year is 4.24, now let's look at this, I'm curious as to what, now one year where we're at, look at this, this is still amazing. So the low, this is 12 months now, the low for the last 12 months is 1.34, it doesn't seem like 1.34, you don't even remember it, it's amazing, 1.34 is the low, 4.24 is the high and we're laying at 3.7 right now, and King Dollar, King Dollar down 662 ticks, trading 107, 173, Euro is 103, Yens at 140, 124 and the British Pounds at 118. We get open, we take a look at the S&P, bottom line, you close at the highs, so you get Wednesday coming in, then we get Turkey Day, bottom line, you know, this wants to go for the swing point, the swing point, well the spies in an ABC up to 411, we hit 400.070, we closed at 399.80, 411.03 is the ABC structure up, the high of the September 12th swing point, that's what it's going after, is 411.73, we go into the end of the X, we take a look at the three Qs, now the three Qs, they're set up, they're going to go after a B point of a potential ABC up, you know, that rejected lower price today, had lighter volume and then the B point on this is going to be 293.26, now if we hit it tomorrow, we're not going to make it, and we hit it Friday, we're not going to make it either, even if you add on the extra hours open, because it's 73 million shares and today you only did 39 million, so you know, bottom line is that we'll see how that shakes out, you know, next few days. Have a great night folks, have a safe night, come back and visit Tommy tomorrow morning, kicks us off 9am, great show folks, we'll get him folks.


Do you have any thoughts to offer up on the works of einrand and objectivism? Sure. Yeah, you've talked about this a little bit I know you said we said we were gonna try to work a sit-down with your own brook Yeah, which I think would be fun Yeah, I know your runs been critical of my of my terminology of capitalism where I've said that it's forced altruism because Anytime you say the word altruism in the presence of an objectivist then it's like water on the on the wicked witch of the West They just start melting and it's all crazy But what I mean by forced altruism is the sense that you know if I don't give you something that you want Meaning that there is an externality to me to me living that I have to generate for you in order for me to get something in return So whether you use altruism or not we have the same perspective on on capitalism. I think that on capitalism. There's been very there's very Well, let me just let me just say something right there Before before we continue on this. I like the analogy to me being the wicked witch of the West I guess I behave when he says altruism I behave like the wicked witch of the West would behave if you pour water on her not sure what I make of that, but so be it kind of fun kind of funny but It kind of ridiculous as well There's a reason why we get upset When we took when altruism is raised and the reason is that Ben Shapiro and everybody else use the term Incorrectly they use the term wrong what he is referring to his trade What he is referring to is selling somebody a product and getting something in return What he is referring to is a win-win transaction. There's no altruism there So what is altruism?  You don't get your terminology. You're right. You're a guy who says Facts don't care about your feelings. I agree with you completely So go check out the facts. What does altruism means? Altruism means living for other people. It means giving up your life and living for the purpose of other people's Satisfaction happiness fulfillment of whatever wishes needs It's the placement of other people's needs above your own life Above your own values above your own wishes. It's not about trading Capitalism is not about altruism and I know he gets this from For the famous economist whose name always slips from our mind that has just done it again see Ben is 31 so nothing slips from his mind in that sense.  He doesn't because he's still young. I think I got the brain freezes when I was his age as well but anyway So what you get here is is a misconception on his part of what altruism means Which is very very dangerous because what is he doing? He's creating a package deal on the altruism He's putting on the altruism one trade trade on the capitalism and to Jesus on the cross real self-sacrifice giving up your Values for other people and getting nothing in return all of that goes lumped in together and then altruism You know it can be anything, right?  What's the point of having it if it includes all these different things? Same point thing is to know exactly what altruism is well altruism is The placement of the world being of other people above your life Their lives are more important than yours indeed according to altruism your moral purpose in life is The other other people that's why it's other ism altruism So then you're smart but Use terms correctly do a little bit of research If you're gonna criticize I'm Rand Never mind if you know never mind me, but if you're gonna criticize I ran do a little bit of research all right We're gonna continue With Ben's he's gonna now go into capitalism and he's gonna give I ran a compliment Expositors of capitalism who I think are better than I ran as far as her life philosophy and her relationship philosophy I think that's pretty garbage. I don't think objectivism applies in personal relationships Now the way that a lot of objectivists get around the idea that like you're gonna abandon your wife and children because there's a hot check at The bar the because objectivists well, they would say that's not rational self-interest, right? Well, so they'll read they'll redefine the terminology right they'll say that you're not making a sacrifice for your wife and children You've made a decision that it makes you happier to be with your wife and children and the rational person would make that decision That it's better to be with your wife and children a lot of 40 year old men driving Corvettes would disagree Right so this I really don't think that's correct I wonder if they disagree or they just have a moment of stupidity I mean maybe but you know, it's the president's married three times each time to a younger hotter model So it's you know, I think that I have less faith in Human nature than to believe that the reason I stick with my wife and kids is because it always makes me happy There's plenty of times when I'm with a screaming child in the middle of the night When what would best serve my interest is to thrust the child on my wife and go drinking so Right. All right. Well, we'll facilitate that At some point when you guys well, I mean now what's nice here is Ben has agreed to debate me. Hopefully he'll still be willing to do that in the future And or to sit down and discuss it. We don't have to have a formal debate It would be a nice conversation to have but I wish I was there I wish I was there because I'd love to ask Ben Shapiro why he stays with his wife There are a lot of hot chicks out there. Why does he stay with his wife? I guess their answer is because God told him to Because it's a great sacrifice to stay with his wife and sacrifice is good Is that why you should stay with your wife? Because it's good to sacrifice No objectivist has ever claimed That every moment of a relationship is gonna be blissful and orgasmic That they're never gonna be tough times But if you're rationally self-interested and that's not a redefinition of term That's what self-interest means not the momentary if if living if a 50-year-old if life in a Corvette and Sleeping around and being a playboy was really better Then sticking with a wife you love and a family you adore then yeah Then we should all be driving Corvettes or less men at least should be driving Corvettes and having a good time Whoops. I forgot to switch cameras back. See this is the problem But That's The point that it isn't better at least for some of us now if you have a lousy marriage Yes, please get divorced if you don't love your wife, please get divorced, but what would they what would Ben say?  You got a sacrifice. Why I don't know for the kids. What if the kids out of the house? I don't know because God said so divorce is bad I'd love to ask him about King David and his many wives of King Solomon with his 2,000 wives and mistresses. I wonder how bench Ben's wife would think about that. Anyway, it's just a whole idea of That self-interest means immediate gratification that is just silly from somebody who's who's claims to be an advocate of reason He has you know, think about it Ben Hey, think about it Self-interest happiness is not about instant gratification. It's not about being short-term It's about reason and I ran talks about this over and over and over again She doesn't redefine selfishness.  Dagny faces difficulties all the time and she sticks with them not out of a sense of duty not out of a sense of self Lessness not out of a sense of self sacrifice, but out of a deep deep deep sense of selfishness Dagny is selfish and therefore she sticks with their values and fights for them and overcomes difficult situations You don't not abandon your children Because it's hard You stay with your kids Because there are value to you and for values.  You don't just walk away I mean that's absurd and he has to know that that's absurd. There's no way somebody as smart as Ben Who's red I ran doesn't know the absurdity of what he's saying?  I believe that I ran is the only threat to his system now What I've noticed and I'm gonna take I've got a couple of calls here I'm assuming these new callers are calling about mention pure because otherwise because I've said it so many times but If you think about Anytime it goes very philosophical You know again, Ben is very mixed so I saw him on Sam Harris and Ben has the right View on free will he believes it exists, but he doesn't understand what free will is again He could benefit enormously enormously from I ran because I ran has the right approach for free Well, and if you don't know I ran supposed to free will then listen to my Interview with on car got a from a few weeks ago or a few a couple of months ago on free will it's on blog talk radio And it's on YouTube So please go and listen to it because it's a it's a if anybody interested in the issue of free will it is a must listen to But free will is an incredibly important topic You have to know what you're talking about and the problem is he doesn't he's very very superficial philosophically Because for him free will is something granted by God and there is no one no explanation really for it so when so he comes off when talking to Sam Harris It's just less deep than Sam even though Sam. I think on free will is is is You know what he says is completely wrong and Ben calls him on it because Sam keeps talking about choices and decisions And Ben keeps saying wait a minute. Don't you need free will father then it says no you don't need free will but which is nonsense Of course you do so Sam wants to have his cake and eat it. He wants to have choices He wants people to make decisions. He wants to have reason but not have free will somehow I don't know what the cake is there. He just wants both of those opinions to be in his mind at the same time And that's a whole problem. It's a whole problem with with Sam Harris