Run it up, do run it back, yeah.  Run it up, do run it back. Happy Tuesday. Welcome to Run It Back here on Fandle TV, guys. We have actual games tonight. Really, really good games. Are we excited? Yeah, let's do it. I can't wait.  Yeah, totally. Yeah, totally. We'll be there. And Stadium Insider, Sean Charania, Chandler P, Blue Will. My name is Michelle. We're the brightest color that exists today on the show. Why not? Make everyone happy. We're going to start with Lakers at Pelicans. Man, they've been out in New Orleans for a minute. This one's at 730 Eastern. A lot of Lakers fans yesterday with some theories on what they should do. ESPN's Mike Greenberg-Greeney said the Lakers should sit LeBron and AD.  They're just picking fights to channel this point. Yeah, you avoid Greeney. You avoid Greeney's back at it again. Is it that crazy, though, to think about trying to avoid the numbers? Yeah, it is. Why is it why? Because you're going to have to go through them anyway. So why mess with the basketball gods? Why you're not good enough, first of all, to sit here and rest this game and then have to go and then beat the Warriors or the Kings? Not like that's a layup, anyways. Not like it's the Eastern Conference where they possibly have the Bulls or the Hawks. No matter what happens in this game, sure, would it be a more favorable matchup if that happened to work out where they just organically lost the game tonight and then they won against the Kings or the Warriors and then drew the Thunder instead of the Nuggets? Yes. I think that would make more sense. I think they'd have a better chance to win that series, but you can't risk in a one game all or nothing to sit your guys or to, you know, load manage them when they're fully healthy just to get the chance at possibly having a more favorable matchup. You cannot do that. That is... Yeah, it's not like this is a seven game series where they got a bunch of games where they can have opportunities to get over that hump. All the gimmicks and all of that playing chess and trying to put yourself in a position to have the right seed. Those games are done. At this point, the best basketball teams are going to win the games. Simple as that. So should they want to lose a game on purpose at this point? Absolutely not. It's a reason all of these teams are in the position that they're in, in this play in tournament. You don't mess with the game. You don't mess with the basketball. Yeah. I agree with the thoughts. If they were good enough to do this, they would have done this earlier. Not when it's a one game, basically, March Madness Elimination where your whole season's on the line. You just absolutely cannot do that. You have to win this game and then you have to take your chance against the Nuggets. Oh, it's a chance. You know what I mean? But that's what you have to do. You can't just let it come down to one game because then anything could happen. Then you could be in Cabo next week instead of playing the Nuggets.  But isn't it daunting? First of all, you think, OK, the Nuggets swept them in the conference finals. Boom. They also beat them in all three games this season. Boom.  You play this game. But is that not sitting on top of your mind the entirety of this game that, OK, we win this. This is our prize. I mean, yeah, you go into a feeling like that and just making sure you go win the basketball game. But I'm laughing because it's saying the internet yesterday was filled with Laker fans that were down for them trying to lose on purpose. That doesn't sound like the Laker faithful to me. Yeah, that doesn't sound like the Laker's attitude. I've worn that uniform before. They want to win at all costs. Win everything. They've never learned. They've never tried to lose anything on purpose. So I'm calling BS on that. Yeah. And again, out loud, when you say it, sure, they would rather the Oakland City Thunder because of their inexperience because they have never been there before because of how youthful they are. Yeah, that makes more sense. But they're not in the position to do this. And we can't just act like they're this team that can flip the switch. OK, we're going to lose this game. We won't get this game. Or they would not be in this dogfight of the play in tournament that they are in. So that makes no sense. It's too risky to do. Do you think the nuggets right now are sitting at home going, we would rather play blank? I mean, I don't think they care. I think they think I don't think they care. But if I'm going to take a shot at guessing, they would like the Pelicans to win this game. I mean, what team would want to play against the best basketball player in the world, no matter what phase of his career that he's in, you don't want to match up with the best basketball player in the world. Simple as that. Yeah, if I'm on the nuggets, I want New Orleans just because of that reason. I don't want to play against LeBron James, Anthony Davis for possibly seven games. I don't want to go Laker Nations everywhere. There's going to be Laker fans tonight in New Orleans. There's going to be Laker fans in Denver.  It's going to be a home game tonight. So I will say the Lakers, I think, a huge advantage in that. For the Lakers fans, they travel regular season games. Again, that means so much right now. I guarantee you it's going to be uncomfortable for the New Orleans Pelicans. Are those not just bandwagon people in different cities that have Lakers? They're still loud. It's America's team. Just making sure I understand what the rules are. The Lakers are America's team.  Sure. Just run out of your tunnel on your home court and get booed by the Laker fans. In New Orleans. It's one of the most annoying things Historically, New Orleans doesn't have this crazy home court They don't have a crazy fan base like that.  There's probably going to be louder Laker fans in there than Pelican fans. They're getting a lot of motivation this morning. No, they have motivation. They're getting a lot of motivation. Hopefully. They're in tune, Chandler, but I understand what you're saying. They don't have this rich history of going to court later, going to Boston where these crazy atmospheres is going to be a normal game for LeBron. Yeah, I understand what you're saying, but they are motivated. They will be there. Shout out to New Orleans. Shout out Smoothie King. You get a smoothie when you go there as a member of the media and a big fan of that. Shams, the AD of it all. I know injury reports and all that. Is there a world in which we don't see him tonight? I don't see a scenario where Anthony Davis doesn't play. He himself came out after the game on Sunday and said, there's no doubt I'm going to play. I've had some conversations in the last 24 hours. The plan is for him to play. I don't see any other way. But for sure, the Lakers have to play for seven. You don't tank this idea of tanking for eight. I don't see the Lakers do that. You play to win. There's too much to risk. The other thing is by playing Denver this or if you do win and you do play Denver in that two-seven matchup, you at least get them early in the playoffs. Last year, there's a lot of wear and tear on LeBron James. There's a lot of wear and tear throughout that roster. You get them early.  Get that out of the way. And can you imagine the confidence they have moving forward if they knock off Denver in the first round? That opens up everything. I'm saying it's a long stretch. What percentage are you giving up? This escalated fast. Less than 3% chance. I don't think they're... But again, anything can happen. The Lakers are a talented team. I'm just saying if you, like Shams just said too, they're going to be healthy. They're going to get it early. If they can happen to knock them off, then the next round, they're going to have the most confidence knowing they just beat the best team in the Western Conference. Obviously, we're getting way far ahead of ourselves. It was a sweep last year, but there were a couple of games that were close last year against Denver. I mean, the Lakers can make a case that they're going to make this series more competitive. The Lakers are dangerous.  They are dangerous. It's not going to be an easy series. I'm going to laugh if they don't even win this game tonight and we're sitting here. I think we're looking ahead a little bit much. This is a mile high now and we're talking about it right now. They got to win tonight for us to even have this conversation. All I'm saying is like, why fear the Duggets? Why fear the Celtics? If you have goals and you have aspirations of winning that conference. Go on, Whitney. What else is there? If you have that, you're going to have to beat them eventually. So why not in the first round? If you have goals and you have dreams. Stay positive, Lakers. Keep going. You got this. Lou, does AD have to be the best player on the court for anything to happen? I don't think so. I think LeBron James has been the best player on that team this year and he's been the leader. Anthony Davis has to be the best version of Anthony Davis. Now, does he have to put the pressure on himself as I have to go out there and outplay everybody on both teams? Absolutely not. But he has to be the second best player on the floor for them to be really successful. But I don't think he has to be the best. We got a... Oh, were you going to say something? No, I searched on his phone. You're watching this there. Something was happening. It's scrolling Instagram real quick. So here's the deal. AD had 30 points, 11 rebounds and 33 minutes against New Orleans. That was on Sunday. There's a two-legged parley. You know I'm going to do this. 25 or more points and 12 or more rebounds, plus 137. That dropped down already. Man, you should take it now. How are you feeling about it? I love that. I have one little stat here that I love for this game. The Lakers ranked second in the league in points in the paints at 56 points game and Anthony Davis has 16 of those points. Oh. They don't really have a guy to guard him. Valentinus is just great big, but he's not as mobile to guard him. Herb Jones is too small and Zion I would assume is going to start on him. He's going to make him have to work on both ends. So I think Anthony Davis does have to be the dominating force. I think you have to get him the ball. No matter who starts on him, especially if it's Zion, I think you try and get him in early foul trouble. But yeah, this is the key for Anthony Davis. He's got to get going early and I do think he gets the spotlight. You don't feel like he has to be the best player, but he has to absolutely be dominant. He has to be forceful when he plays. Impose his will early, get to the free-thaline, get on the offensive glass. He should be the most dominant player. And that stat with the points in the paint, that's huge because they can run, they can do, but when it slows down on the offensive glass, Anthony Davis has got to be dominant. Brandon Ingram, by the way, made his return with the knee injury thing on Sunday and he played 23 minutes. So is he full time? Go? No restrictions?  I think he's going to be more of a forego than not. To me, the biggest thing though with this Pelicans team is now that you reintegrated BI, who I believe Lew will play with, you reintegrate him into the lineup. Play with everybody. That's true. Zion was so comfortable when Brandon Ingram was out with having the ball in his hands, playing that point forward role. I think for the Pelicans, the big question is always with this team, when Zion's healthy is how do you blend these two guys? How do you make both of them fit next to each other and play at a high level? And tonight will be another example for them to try to figure that out. Chandler. I'm hot, right? I'm sweating. It's really hot. This hoodie is so thick and warm. There's a lot going on. It's almost like you didn't know that it's always hot in here. I'm sweating too, makes everyone feel better. And I'm sure it does. Let's talk about ceiling for the Pelicans. There are certain teams that I think we just sort of assume that there's a very low ceiling. I don't know what you're putting over New Orleans here. I mean, contender seems like a stretch. I don't think they're real contenders. I loved this team early last year when we were talking about Willie Green, Coach of the Year, and they have all these young assets with Murray and Murphy and Herb Jones and Alvarado. And then they have these stars when they're healthy. They're really, really good. And now, as of lately, C.J. McCollum has found his rhythm. He's gotten hot. Valencianists, you know what you're gonna get from him. You're gonna get a solid double-double, pretty much every single night with that guy. And then they have two elite players that can get out and transition.  So I think they do have a lot of talent. They are on the right trajectory. I just don't think with the Western Conference being so deep this year, this is their year, but I wouldn't be, either way, this game could go either way tonight. They've had a great year. Now with Brandon Irminsi back too, that kind of gives another layer.  I think, damn, I think the Lakers get more calls. I think the NBA wants the Lakers to win more. Whoa! It's here to see. I think the Lakers get it done tonight. I don't think the home court advantage is gonna be too big of a deal. And you know what I was thinking too? This is the closest thing to like March Madness we got with LeBron. It feels like it's like the one game elimination. Never played college basketball. This is his March Madness. This is his March Madness. I like it. Yeah, that's a good point. In April. In April. In April. Let's look at the odds. I know they're fluctuating back and forth, left and right. Pelicans right now are the favorite, oh yeah, yeah, minus one and a half right there, over under of two, 24 and a half. And the Lakers have won three of the four games that they've played against New Orleans. So let's just go, Lou. Who wins? Yeah, who you got? Who you got? Who's gonna be the Lakers? Like I said, I'm one of those guys. I don't bet against LeBron James. I don't bet against Steph Curry when it comes down to it for the money. If it comes down to winning the basketball game for the money, to move on, to do anything special, those are two guys I've just learned to never bet against. So I got Lakers tonight. I agree. And you know we didn't repent of playing but if you, whoever loses this game, that pressure has gotta be crazy on the next game. You know what I mean? Like you had a chance to block in the seventh seed and now you have one game later, you're going home. So this is such a big game and whoever it is, it's not gonna have an easy game next round whether it's gonna be Sacramento or Golden State. You know what? Let's just, I'm gonna say New Orleans. Just to be... No, that's Michigan. Yeah, let's see what happens. Yeah, let's see what happens. It looks really good. I mean, that's not a bad thing. I don't know what it is though, but like Lakers, Pelicans, they've had their number. They beat them in the eighth season tournament and they beat them on Sunday for the chance to play seven, eight. This is different. I like to say they do. This is for the money. This really is, this is different for everything. Yes, sir. Well, for to go get beat by the Nuckets, but yeah, it's for everything. Sick reward. It's like a weird prize. Warriors Kings is the later game today. Warriors, God, it's deja vu. Warriors beat the Kings last year in game seven of that first round series. It's a game seven type environment. Again, tonight in Sacramento, do we have confidence, Chandler, that the Kings can figure it out? Again, in this scenario, one game sure, anything can happen. If I'm betting, man, I'm betting Golden State Warriors tonight. They're just the big brother of the Kings. They've always had their number. I think the minute that Kevin Herter and Malik Monk went down for this team, that is a huge hole, it's a huge void. I'd love to see Fox come out early tonight, make Steph Curry work on the defensive end. So bonus, dominate, although he has not played great against the Warriors, but those two guys have to take 20-plus shots tonight. Like this is it for them. They need this game. And again, because if you lose this game, then it gets real dicey in that next round. But I like the Warriors. Oh, look at that. Kings going to sleep. This is what we wanted to. We wanted to change the legers. And the Warriors to get 7-8. This is no diss to the Sacramento Kings. I like the team that they've built. Again, it's two guys in the NBA that I don't bet against when it's for the money. Steph Curry, for the money, he's putting them to sleep. You like the Warriors more than the Lakers. I like Steph Curry. Oh, okay, that's a different one. Are we looking ahead? I'm just saying, would you rather bet it Warriors tonight to win or would you rather bet the Lakers tonight to win? If they played each other? No, that game or that game. Which one do you think is more of a lock? I think the Warriors game is more of a lock. Whoa! Okay, Warriors are more, why? Do we just trust them more? Listen, that Pelicans Lakers game got a lot of star power in it. Got a lot of star power in it. New Orleans is playing really good basketball. I just think the Lakers are the type of team that they get methodical with how they go about games, with game planning, with strategy. LeBron James is going to go out there. He's going to manage the game. He's going to manage the pace. He's going to manage the flow. It's going to go his way. It's going to be tilted his way. So I think the other game is going to be a little bit more of a lopsided way. And you know what's interesting? You were saying whoever wins that first game, like congrats, you're going to get the Denver Nuggets. It's the opposite on this. It's like, okay, if we can win this game and then go get the next game, we have a real shot at actually going and beating the Oklahoma City Thunder with a better draw. So this, yeah, it's almost like we said, Laker Nation wants them to sit. That's not going to happen, but it is a more favorable matchup to get the 8C and the West is here in the seventh. That's what I'm saying. Sometimes you don't want to be great. It's a better position for these two teams almost to go and go balls to the wall and win these next two games and then get the Thunder rather than rest and sit, Lakers cannot do that. No, I don't think they can either. Let's just take a road, a trip down memory lane because this seems like a bit of a rivalry building. Stuff had 50 in game seven of the series last year. And of course there was the Dremont stomp on Sabonis and his chest in game two. We got him up there. Does this have enough to be considered a rivalry? And I was in the building when Dremont came back in that one and he got a standing ovation, which is everything that's wrong with the world. But that being said, Chandler. I will say Sacramento fan base is awesome. They're going to be loud. They're going to be rowdy. They're going to try to light the beam tonight and they're not going to let Dremont Green forget about that moment. Every time he touches the ball, they are going to boo him and it's going to be a crazy atmosphere. They're so close in location, but the Warriors pack a different punch. They're like the Lakers. There's going to be so many warrior fans also in there that love Steph Curry and love Clay Thompson. How far is the drive to Sacramento from here? It's not, oh, from here? Oh, from here? Like seven? It's about pulling up. Seven hours, maybe?  Oh, seven hours? I don't live that type of life. No, I know. And a lot of it's just kind of boring so you can just cruise. And also anytime Dremont Green's on the floor, there's going to be some sort of physical, yeah, there's going to be some sort of environment that's going to, could possibly be hostile, especially when there's already been. I'm excited for these games, man. I think Louis really wants to go tonight to the game. I'm excited. It's been a long time since we've seen so many great matchups. So many great matchups, making the greatest players in the world earn it. This is exciting. I'm excited to see these games. And think about the people that didn't like the plan initially, like if they didn't like LeBron. Like LeBron. These two teams would already said whoever created the plan should get fired. These two teams would already just be home. They wouldn't even have a chance at going to get. We hated the idea. No, it's perfect entertainment. It's better than anything we could have asked for. And also on this bonus thing, he's never had a triple double against DreamOn. So how do we get over the VAT, huh? Do we get over that? Like I said, he's got to be aggressive. He's got to do the same thing Anthony Davis. He's got to come out. It's one game and then you need to go to the next one, but he's got to dominate. And again, he's never played great. DreamOn Green's a great defender. He's physical, he's mobile. He's one of those rare guys that can move his feet and stay with guards. And he can also be physical with a strong surveillance like this. So I just think, like I said, it's got to be him and Fox, especially with those two wings out, they have to do the majority of the scoring. Take 20 shots, take 25 shots.  This is going to be fantastic. Also, DreamOn said it too, didn't he? He said he hates the playing game and the greatest thing that's ever been created. That was actually a really good DreamOn quote. If you're in it, you love it. If you're not in it, you're like, why is there the play-in tournament, right? Like that's probably one of the problems. This is one of those things that's not relevant to you until you need it. I think you love it if you're the one and two. See too, because it gives you a couple more extra days of rest.  It works for everybody. The Lakers made it to the Western Conference finals out of the play-in tournament, right? He made it to the NBA part out of the play-in tournament. So clearly there's something here that works. Especially when it's so deep and everyone, the 10th seed, what was their record this year? Everyone's above 500. Everyone's above 500 and they're the 10th seed. They deserve a crack at it, they got this right. Let's talk young dudes on the Warriors. They've been a huge part of what they have done on the court. What's the impact you've seen? I mean, a massive impact then.  And I think John, they come in good. Trace Jackson, Davis, Brandon Pizemski, they love all three of those players. And Kaminga, we've seen develop into that second option on any given night. He has qualities that makes him a star caliber player. And he missed some time late in the season with the knee injury. He's on his way back. He's looking better to close the year. They need him to step up tonight and for the rest of the playoffs. He's also extensionalizable, Michelle. So seeing how that goes in the summertime after his third season will be interesting as well. That's exciting for everyone involved. Look, I just, I want to look ahead because I think this is the gazillion dollar question as well. If the Warriors lose this thing, is this the last time we see Clay, Steph, and Draymond playing together? I think so. I think so. I can see Clay, I think he's played well enough this year to go and get a huge bag from a team like Orlando Magic or someone like that that's gonna offer him a bunch. I am. And I think he deserves it. I think he's got one more crack at it to go and be the guy. And I think with everything that's happened, I won't say this year for them to basically be the 10 seed and go and get knocked off by their little brother, the Sacramento Kings. I think this would be their final game together. This big three, these three guys are Hall of Fame group. They've done a lot together. They've created memories. They were a championship group. I love to see guys start and finish their careers in one place that they've done so many great things for something just feels like there's time for a change in Golden State. It just feels like it. When you're around this game for so long, you can tell when the energy is shifting and it feels like that's the vibe going into this playoff run that we're probably seeing the last days of this three together. It's basically Clay's gonna be gone. That makes me a little bit sad. That's why he's taking everybody on the boat. Steph always shows up. That is not, we're not worried about that. But is there a chance we get an old school Splash Brothers performance? Which would mean, and here we go, Steph and Clay both have to score 25 or more, which right now is at plus three, 89. With those odds, I would take it. I think Steph definitely is gonna go over 25 and Clay's had these games for again. He can get hot early. He can make seven, eight, nine, 10, three. So at plus three, 89, I would definitely take this little part. I like that one. Clay Coiley got worked back into the star ladder. We never discussed it. Yeah, the whole come off the bench thing was a blip on the screen. Yeah, and he's had a few of those are like 27 points seems to be his wheelhouse. Dreymon, by the way, first player to record a double, double without attempting a field goal or a free throw. That's crazy. The other night, that is a weird stat. So here we go. Eight or more assists. That's magic. Yeah, that's... That's as crazy as it's not having a free throw. That's also magic and weird. Yeah, there's a couple of weird moments in the end of this one. That was crazy. If he scores eight or more and eight rebounds, assists and rebounds, plus 286. I liked it. Yeah? Look at Lou write stuff down. He's gonna take that one. Just assists and rebounds. I like just crazy as we were talking about a player who the points are the hardest thing for him to get. He's gonna get the rebounds. He's gonna get the assists, the swings, swings. He's playing with the best shooters ever. His average are kind of up this year, though, points. I'm just saying, if you told me, all right, Dreymon, eight, eight and eight, which one's he not gonna get? I would probably say points. Yeah, I think that would be okay. If he's on the floor for 30 plus minutes, he's getting eight assists and eight rebounds. He's the ball a lot. He's crashing the glass. It's the points that are gonna be the tricky part. I buy that one as well. Kings, we've talked a little bit, Chandler, you've mentioned the huge injuries, by the way, of the last month this season. Is there anything on Malik Monk that you can share? Malik Monk is gonna be out well into April and May.  Ever. He's out for a season. That's what you're saying. So, I mean, the Kings are preparing to move forward here if they do make it in the playoffs for at least the first round through the first round without Malik Monk. That's just such a bummer. And they do have guys to step up.  But yeah, Malik Monk provides just that spark to energy, the outside shooting, everything.  You know, Davion Mitchell, he's been better. He's been making some shots outside, but that's a big holder of place. And then on top of that, Kevin Herter, your best shooter, he's out too. Those are, I think, too tall of a task to overcome. That's two big ones. Let's go ahead and predict this bad boy. The odds on a fan dual sports book right now have the Warriors two and a half point favorites. And they were split. The series was split. When the Kings won both their games, it was by a single point, which is interesting to me. Lou, who wins? Golden State. Golden State. The beam, I'm sorry, Sacramento, I don't feel like that beam is gonna be lit. You know, and you guys should be on edge and y'all should be there and be very supportive of your team. You know, this is the team that just took you out seven games the last time we were in this position. So, you know, the proof is in the pudding right there. I still like Golden State. You need to stand when you're saying it there. I don't know. I'm saying it. It's gonna be a great game. But I can see even Golden State pulling away with this, you know, double digit.  I think they're gonna come out ready to play. And I think they, this is what we wanted, right? This is what everybody wanted. A little wow wings. I want to be entertained. I want to see a triple overtime thriller. I wouldn't mind that. I think the Warriors and the Warriors went pretty big. Especially we're on the West Coast watching sports so much easier out here. Yeah, I'd take a triple overtime. Don't mind it. We're gonna take a quick break when we come back. Legend. Legend. Bernie, William, hello, Bernie. Last class. And classy. When we come back, when we come back, returns. I mean, this next guest, it's an honor. A four-time World Series champion. A five-time All-Star. And a four-time Gold Glove winner. Also can rock the guitar. And the first guest to raise suit and tie on this here show, Bernie Williams. Ladies and gentlemen. Yep, legend, legend. He's the first person to get a clap from us as well. I mean. It's something about the memo, you know, the dress code or whatever. But never in doubt, he's always better to be overdressed. That is the motto. That's the way it goes. All right, we're gonna talk, because the Knicks right now are doing really well, but we want to kind of do a little memory here. You guys were at the peak. The Knicks in the mid-90s were the most fun. In my mind, I have this image that Yankees and Knicks players all hung out, partied together, did kind of fun things. Is this true? Part of it is. Part of it is. I think part of it is. I think there's a lot of things that I may not be allowed to say in public. All kidding aside, I do remember those Knicks. I mean, they were hardcore. I mean, they were bruisers.  You know?  What a great time. Bernie, there were some legendary Knicks games at the garden around that time. Obviously Reggie Miller, eight points in nine seconds. The Knicks heat fighting in the 97 playoffs. Were you there for any of those iconic moments? What were your favorite memories? No, I mean, I was not there for a lot of those games. You know, I used to, you know, kind of run into them, you know, in the city and in various events and charity events and restaurants and, you know, Broadway shows. And we were kind of like, you know, going into the same places. And I was so, you know, I thought I was a tall guy, but looking over those guys, you know, that made me feel so small. But yeah, I mean, we had great camaraderie and we knew that as team players in this great city, you know, we had great expectations. And it was just a great time to be alive and be part of the, you know, the sports fabric of the city. I mean, when New York sports are crushing it, there's no better place. Grammy nominated guitarist. She also played the anthem at the garden a few times. What is more stressful? Because I would think baseball for you is second nature. Do you get stressed when you're doing this right here? Whoa, yes. There's a lot of stress there.  The game is on the line.  And there's no second chance, you know, you just got to do it or do it, sink or swim. And yeah, that's what I feel, you know, when I play the anthem, but you feed off of the energy of the people and you have, you know, this one chance to make it right. And once you hit that last note, man, you're like, oh, all right, it's great. I mean, I know James Dolan fancies himself a musician. He's got the band. He does all that. Does he bug you for tips and how to be better? No, I think he has a great group of musicians that he draws upon, you know, do that. I'm actually dying to play with him one time and kind of sit in that band. I think that will be a lot of fun. Bernie, who is the greatest guitar player of all time in your opinion? Oh my God. Man, that's such an unfair question to ask. It depends on the genre, the type of music, but the type of music that you'd listen to.  I mean, it will be some of my favorites.   That's awesome.  And a rock star guitar player. You and Carmelo, Anthony actually go way back, Bernie. How did you guys meet and are you guys like still close? How did that transpire?     And, you know, kudos to him. I mean, he is one of those guys that never forgot where he came from and he just came back and made, trying to make a huge impact in the community that he came from. So that was just a great thing to be a part of. So are the next, should they retire his number seven or what are we thinking on that? Absolutely, man. I mean, he was part of the city.  And he raised the roof a whole lot of times. You know, he was part of those great teams. And he played hard for the city. I think he, you know, he definitely deserves it. So on some of those legendary Yankee teams you played on, did you have any teammates that were Hoopers? Which one of your teammates do you think would have the most success in the NBA? I don't know.  So yeah, those guys, I mean, Gerald Williams was probably one of the best athletes that I've ever seen.  And that was part of their conditioning. I think it was great, you know, the fact that they, you know, kind of introduced another sport, you know, into their preparation to get ready for a Major League Baseball game. So I thought that was awesome. We always talk about that. We were talking with football players. Can we score a touchdown? Can they score a bucket? If one of a professional athlete, like Lou Will, say he played varsity. Well, it's you. This is different. Okay, me. Yeah. Like I made varsity baseball as a freshman in high school, J.B. basketball. It wasn't never very good, never played college. Haven't played since. If I got 500 at bats and the MLB burning, would I, could I get lucky and get one hit or no chance? Because now I played golf and the ball doesn't move and I could barely hit the thing. So I can't hit a 90 mile an hour slide. 90, they're throwing it like.    You know, it doesn't matter how it, how it felt. I had to. But yeah, having that hand-eye coordination, I think that so many athletes that were so great in so many sports, but, you know, this whole niche of being able to hit a, you know, a fastball, you know, 90, 100 miles an hour and then hit a changeup and hit a forkball and something like that. I think it's one of those things that you're kind of born with. Yeah.  I honestly think that would be harder than scoring. I was going to say, I had the pleasure of doing batting practice with the Phillies once. And their hitting coach, he started, he put the ball on the tee and I was like, come on, man. He was like, no, I have to show you the correct way to hit a baseball, how to line your hips up and everything. He was telling me, you basically had to start swinging before the ball even comes out. So it was a, it was a, yeah, it was a surreal experience. You got to guess. Yeah, you got to guess. So 500 at bats, we would get lucky and make contact on maybe one. Cause I hit one finally once it came out, the machine after we got off the tee. And I tell you, my arms were ringing. My hands were ringing. It's a completely different thing that you're training for. So I got some mad respect for you guys and what you're able to do at a high level. I want to ask the NBA has some great owners. I played for one in Steve Ballmer. You played for George Steinbrenner. What was it like playing for such a legendary owner and, and Mr. Steinbrenner? And what are some of the pros and cons of working with someone like that? Well, I mean, I didn't see a lot of cons, you know, playing for Mr. Steinbrenner. I think that he really spent a lot of time, effort and resources trying to provide the team with the best of everything. You know, the trick part of it is that he will definitely would see, try to see some return on his investment. So he'll demand that excellence. And I think, you know, if, like in my case in particular, I wanted to be perfect, you know, and my pursuit of perfection, I kind of stumble about, stumble about excellence, you know, somewhere along the way. So we had a lot of great expectations as a team and individuals, you know, trying to get to a point that we could be the best players individually and then try to get the some of the parts to work and that trying to click to have some chemistry as a team. And I think George was the best in trying to provide us with the best resources to be in a position to be successful. So I cannot knock him for that, you know, he always wanted to win. And that was first and foremost, you know, he didn't want us to have a good regular season, even a good playoff, but he was like, World Series or bust and every year that we won, you know, the next day, literally the next day we would just go, okay, what's going to happen next year? You know, who are we going to be?  He was all about next year, the next of that, you know, the next season. And, you know, I think that relentlessness, you know, it was just permeated through the whole organization and that created this culture that we were so proud of, you know, be a part of and that great run, you know, from mid to late 90s and early 2000s, you know, it's some of the best times in the city, you know, what he came down to baseball and the Yankees. It's one of my favorite things is there's a group of people out there who've just watched Seinfeld reruns. And so their only knowledge of George Steinbrenner is just the back of the head and George Costanza. And you and Jeter were on an episode together. What was that experience like? Did you have a script? I know you had a line. Was it scripted? Did they do a lot of ad-lib? What do you remember about it? He was a scripted line. That was my thing to have, well, actually 15 seconds of fame and a sitcom. He was, I mean, the whole experience was just out of this world, you know, it was right after we won the 96th series against the Braves. You know, we, me and Derek had an invitation to go to Hollywood to film an episode of Seinfeld.  We stayed at the Beverly Hills Hotel. We got into the NBC studios where they have transformed the parking lot into a batting cage. Wow. We had Jason Alexander there trying to teach us how to hit. You know, it was just an incredible experience. And, you know, it's part of the spoils of being a champion in those days.  That's awesome. That's so good. Bernie, your former teammate, Alex Rodriguez, is part of a group trying to buy the Timberwolves still. What kind of owner do you believe A-Rod would be? I think he'll be a good owner.  I think, you know, knowing the players, knowing what it takes to be a champion, knowing the preparation that it takes, you know, for players to be at the best of their game, you know, because he went through it, I think it's a great element and a great variable to add into the whole mix.  So it might be hard for them to relate, you know, to an athlete or some sort of situation. And I think he's going to be in a better position to answer those questions and contribute to the, you know, to that club. So I think he'll be a great owner and, you know, he definitely has a flair for, you know, being in the public eye and being, you know, the center of attention in many instances.  So I think he's going to be great. Yeah, he's always seems to be in the media and in the public eye, like you said. And he, for whatever reason, always gets a lot of hate. What was your experience like playing with A-Rod? He was a great teammate. You know, he was an awesome teammate. He prepared himself to the best of his ability. He was all about, you know, his knowledge of the game, the fact that he, you know, wanted to be as part of the winning tradition of the New York Yankees as anybody on the team.  He enjoyed playing in New York and he did the best, you know, to try to be the best player, you know, at this time, at the time that he was playing with us. So I have nothing to say about A-Rod. And he was awesome and, you know, numbers prove it.  Honestly, you need, you also need that guy. You need sort of the quote unquote villain, the drama. It's just, it's fun. It's fun for what we do for a living Bernie selfishly. We got, it's the best. A-Rod, Jeter, do they like each other?  Now we see them all as adults, like working together. Yeah, now they're all the time together. I know. I kind of know that. And I think it was part of the whole situation that happened there. And I think it was good, good for the fans. I think it gave them something to talk about every day.  And they, they were able to accomplish that as well. Before we let you go, Bernie, why don't you tell us a little bit about tune into lung health? What is that? Oh yeah, yeah. Thank you so much for letting me talk about that. It's an initiative that was designed to help people cope with the anxiety and all that has to do with dealing with interstitial lung diseases. And my connection with that is because my father died from idiopathic pulmonary fibrosis, which is one of these interstitial lung diseases in 2001. And we had a hard time, such a hard time diagnosing his condition. So we're really want nobody to go through what my family went through. So tune into lunghealth.com is a website. We have a lot of resources, educational music, curated by myself and others. Music from Stevie Wonder to the Beatles, to Frank Sinatra, vocalist exercises and breathing exercises to enhance the quality of life that people that are suffering from interstitial lung disease. So thank you so much for giving me an opportunity to talk about that. I think it's a really important subject. No, thanks for sharing that info with us. Everyone check that out. Bernie Williams, this has been an absolute pleasure. We appreciate the time. Thank you so much, guys. God bless. We'll be back soon.  Chomp scoops. All right, what do you got for us? Team USA, we've been talking about it all year. And we had seven of the 12 participants about a month ago when we reported Juhad, a Devon Booker, two commitments for Team USA. And they've finalized 11 of their 12-man rosters. So the new four players, Anthony Edwards, Bam Adebayo, Tyrese Halburden, and Anthony Davis, that leaves one spot open. I'm told this is Kawhi Leonard's spot. This vacant spot is Kawhi Leonard. If he's healthy, if he wants to play at Team USA, he's someone that LeBron James and Kevin Durant want to see at Team USA and want to see play. But if he can't, Paulo Bencarro, Paul George, Jalen Brunson, all under consideration for that open spot, I'm told as of right now, not Kyrie Irving or Deer and Fox in play for that spot. But listen, Tyrese Halburden's roster spot, the spot that he got, that was really the position where you looked at a guy like Deer and Fox, defensive-minded guard, a slasher, athletic, or a guy like Kyrie Irving who we've seen play in the past, a gold medalist in the past. Obviously, this year has had a resurgence season for the Mavericks who are contending. So that was the big position that still, even after this announcement, after this news that I put out there, is still a little bit of a debate around the league as far as why Tyrese Halburden over those two guys, but that's a decision USA basketball made. Yeah, who got snubbed? Kyrie Irving, I think he's done it before. He's a gold medal. He's played with great players. He's played with the Ronnie, plays with Luca now. He knows how to coexist on a situation like this. And he's had, like Sean just said, he's had an unbelievable year. He deserves a spot. Jalen Brunson is the guy you gotta look at. I love the Kauai Leonard having a little bit more versatility, having small ball liners. Listen, this is a great product. This is what Team USA needs to do. This is a gold medal roster. This is one of the best rosters we've ever had. This is a great, great team. So it is, obviously it's always gold or bust for us, but this team is phenomenal and we're winning the gold medal. Is there a cutoff when Kauai has to, is it just? Well, training camp starts in July. So I think they're gonna give it as long as they possibly can. Kauai Leonard is the guy that they want on this team. They're trying to form whatever you wanna call it. The Avengers, Dream Team 2.0. They're trying to bring all the best players and I think LeBron James, Kevin Durant, Steph and Curry, when they spoke last summer, when the World Cup was going on, they talked about we wanna go all play. We wanna have all the Hall of Famers play.  By 40 or 50 points. That's not my place here. I'll leave that to you guys. I'm not here with a suit on. You can say ace. But what I will say is that's what those three guys talked about last summer and they want Kauai Leonard on this team to bring you to fruition. Shoms, can you just say ace? Mm-mm. Why? Nope. You got a shoe deal, Shoms. What's going on here? Why won't you do it? Fine. I'll just hijack them. Bevron, come on. Okay, we got Pistons news. Yup, I said it. It's happening. It's weird to have Pistons news, right? Yes. So, 2020, they brought Troy Weaverne as the general manager. The Detroit Pistons, from what I'm told, they are hiring a new head of basketball operations, a president of basketball operations, the search process starts this week. Obviously, disappointing season 14 and 16. This is a team that hired Monte Williams, paid him a contract up to a hundred million dollars. They expected to compete in the playoffs. They fell way short of that, and they had the record for most losses in a row in NBA history. They will hire a new head of basketball operations. That president will decide on the future of Troy Weaverne and potentially Monte Williams. Targets, I would expect two big name targets. They're not available right now, but John Horst, general manager in Milwaukee, and Tim Connolly, the president of Minnesota. Really? I reported last week. If he can turn this team around. If he can do that. He has an opt-out in his contract with the Timberwolves in the off-season. He turned the nuggets into the championship contender. He turned the Timberwolves into the championship contender. If that's up to him. Yeah, if you turn the team around, you can't pay Monte Williams, you pay Connolly. They pay the players and get good players to win the games on this team. They need talent. They're just hired. More than they need staff. Chandler did call this four months ago. That's true. Well, it wasn't that. He is a genius. A lot of people say that. How about Chandler for president of... Please. Not a mountain of money in the world to get me to move to Detroit. And there it is. We'll take a quick break. We go back to wrap things up on Run It Back. We had to insult at least one town today. We hadn't done it yet.  I'm going to flick up with me. This is crazy. This was awesome, by the way. Oh, baby. He hit this impressive. At the rim. That's nice. Those are two jumper shot fakes at the rim. That's nice.  So little... I like it. I like the hero. Look at this. I like the hero. I'm here. That's fine, right? Look at this. No, I'm not. Got him. Oh, you too. Take this. Here, get dunked on now. That's nice. I like it. Do you love it? And there's just Dick in the paint there. Excuse me? Grady Dick is in the paint. Oh, right. Yeah, good call. Green. Shout out, Givante Green. He had some big games late in the season. How come some guys wear shirts under their jerseys? I think you have to have some sort of like shoulder situation. Oh, it's compressed? Yeah, it's got pants and everything. I did that in college just because I was scrawling you. I literally wore like a... Oh, we saw. Like a Hanes t-shirt underneath it.  That's all you look like. This was nice. Oh. I want not on Jeff Green. This was nice. Lose dunking on Jeff Green. Lose rookie. Lose rookie.  Lose rookie of the year. How'd that fit up? You know what? It would have been cool though, Lou. We'll be back next year. We'll be back. We'll be back next year. We'll be the most approved next year. Most approved next year. There you go. Okay. Olivia Muxin's Prosper. Oh my. This kind of went under the radar. All of these against the Pistons? You know what, Shamsuit, James Wiseman had a little bit of a year this year. All of these clips showed some flashes. You just wouldn't know, because, you know. Got his... Another shirt. Interesting. A lot of shoulder injuries here. A lot of shoulder injuries. Oh, they're dunking and falling like that. It's a nice dunk. Went under the radar for sure. Is this true? We have Mark Cuban on the show tomorrow. Oh boy. Well. You better come in with some more kidding questions. Let's get it. No, no, no. Let's keep it PG tomorrow. Let's get it. We gotta talk about the taxes. That's what I want to talk about. Taxes. What are they? We hate them. Oh, that was yesterday, wasn't it? We're talking taxes. Ampolish here is back. Oh man. Tomorrow's gonna be a quite the fun show. We got Cubes and Polish here tomorrow? Yeah. Oh. We got a big day.


The story of Daniel Kittridge was submitted by a listener to this series, but it is only one of thousands of such stories that are brought to the attention of those who concern themselves with the world of the unknown. And so it takes its rightful place in that vast body of evidence drawn from the everyday lives of ordinary men, evidence that the supernormal does occur in spite of those among us who would disbelieve. In the Chicago police records for the month of August in the year 1925, one will find set down in a sober and routine report the testimony of one Henry Becker, intimate friend of Daniel Kittridge. On the night of August 12th, Mr. Becker visited Mr. Kittridge and the new men sat talking of bygone days. And suddenly at 1227 by the clock on the mantle, Daniel Kittridge lead to his feet and turned very pale. My brother, my brother, George, something's happened to him. Henry, he's... No, I may not be here. We hurry. We might still be able to help him. You've got your car out in front. Will you take me out to George's place? He's hurt, seriously hurt. If we leave right now, we may not be too late. How could you possibly know all this? We've been seeing... I just know it, that's all. I feel it. Now come on, Henry, please. Reluctant way, Henry Becker climbed into his car and drove Daniel Kittridge some five miles out to the apartment building where his brother lived. It was almost one o'clock when they finally reached their destination. All right, Dan, here we are. It's too late now, George is dead. If you go up, Henry, I just can't bring myself to do it. Cursing himself for a fool, Henry Becker climbed the three flights of stairs to George Kittridge's apartment. He knocked on the door and waited. He knocked again, and then finally a door directly across the hall opened and on the thresholds to the woman in a dressing gown. Is he... is he dead yet? Is... who dead yet? The gentleman who lived there, Mr. Kittridge. Why... why I don't know. Why should he be dead? Oh, well, I thought perhaps you were a member of the family. I thought you knew. Knew what? What's this all about? The poor man had a terrible accident about an hour ago. He came home, his wife was out, and he had no key. So he tried to climb in from the porch, but he fell. He fell all the way down and landed on a cement walk. Oh, it was horrible. He was still living when the ambulance took him away, but I'm sure he must be dead by now. George Kittridge died in the Alexian Brothers Hospital shortly after he was admitted there. But the tragic news came as no surprise to his brother Daniel. Like so many other men whose relatives and friends have met a sudden death, he sensed the fact long before he had been informed of them. This, then, is a case like all the cases of its kind. A case incredible, but true.


Good morning everyone Yeah, my name is Adrian Dabrowski my colleague Gabriel Dabrowski. This is work together with Wilfrid Maier and Edgar Weiber We will be talking about decoupling the SIM card from the mobile phone or the modem to get all kinds of fancy measurements and It's called cellular carriers hate district. I will explain it why Using sim panels to travel at light speed So for the motivational example, let's assume we have like three medieval city states and They recently invested Into technology and so they switched from landline to wireless to cellular networks and We have like all this new mobile phone operators popping up like Night mobile or Arthur and Excalibur with the sword in there and dragon phone and all the others and With that we also had like an explosion of new social networks and we'll have something like Royal Tweet and Bartboard and peasant post and All these people are like super hooked on social networks So their mobile phone operators think well, how do we target some demographics that are that? Like social networks, so they come up with this new data plans where there is something already included like video streaming or messaging or social network apps and We have like it's super transformative. It's very addictive. You have all these people Spending hours and hours on end on the social networks and I heard that the king over there is Got actually so much hooked on it. He's Considering buying Royal Tweet and renaming it to the Roman numeral of ten and so this is Archibald he recently switched from alchemy to cellular network research and and He also likes has a few friends abroad and he also already found a few Inconsistencies and and maybe vulnerabilities in his local network But he is a bit a prisoner of his own city states Well, when he is when he can travel he can like do the measurements abroad in another network, but Also when he visiting his friends He actually would like to spend time with the friends and also it's getting very expensive So why is roaming so complex or why is it so interesting? the interesting thing with roaming is that you have your home network operator on one side and That you're visiting mobile network operator that using some interconnection in between Pretend to you as the customer that they're providing a Singular set of services and a consistent set of services Although they're using completely different configurations hardware software manufacturers what not and so At a closer look Or we see that this picture of a consistent service pretty fast falls apart And you might wonder well when I'm abroad how is my traffic actually routed and Are two ways you can have either local breakout or you can have home route or home routing interestingly Depending on the service that you're using it will either use one or the other so for example if you're Using data That's usually home routed So even if you're abroad all your data will exit with an IP address of your home network operator, so you can't use all the fancy geolocked services in another country Unless you connect to the Wi-Fi for other services like voice you have local breakout Back in the 1980s when GSM was specified Or even today voice is considered as an time critical service, so you'd like to Get it out into the public networks as fast as possible with a Route as short as possible. So technically for example voice roaming works By the visit by the visiting network operator issuing you a temporary phone number in that Country that you're visiting and your home network operator then rerout all the incoming calls to this new temporary phone number So you have like all the small differences in roaming And so while archibald likes to travel it's getting very expensive and all this testing can be Quite tedious. Let's look at an example. So whoever Travels in internationally for DEF CON might have received that SMS That's because AT&T doesn't support voice roaming for most European carriers however, does support data and and SMS so you might even get built for voice traffic while in the US without being able to use voice and So you have all the small oddities and let's see can we measure that in our toy example? So let's take one SIM card. We have like one home operator plus Three network operators in one other city-state and in the other however That's just one SIM card. Of course, there are multiple carriers within our home network or home country so we'll have to buy multiple SIM cards and But there are also More than one data plan which might be important because They're support different services So we'll have to multiply by that But then of course you have all the network operators in the other city-states as well And we end up like just in our toy example with 190 combinations so clearly that doesn't scale well and What are the possibilities here for Archibald to Continue his work. Well, he could buy a lot of SIM cards and a lot of modems and position them Everywhere well in the three countries, but Well, the hardware cost the monthly costs and soon after that bankruptcy. So that doesn't work Well, you could have like one modem in each country and then ship SIM cards around but that has like large overhead and the shipping times and a lot of manual labor or What we did is Try to decouple the SIM card from the modem. So usually the SIM card and the modem are like one unit and They communicate with each other But what if we can extend this internal bus? all around the globe and So that's what mobile Atlas does the academic name is geographically decoupling cellular measurements and exploitation and With that we can now like solid-state travel we can connect SIM cards to different places all around to our modems all around the world and Pretend To the network operators that we are in that country and do our measurements there and tests So what were our goals with the project? Well, of course scalability Automatability, but also important point is control the background noise if you use like a off-the-shelf Cellular phone then you have a like a full-blown operating system on it with all kinds of background tasks and That will it might interfere with the measurements you are doing or with the exploits you are testing depending on what What you're precisely doing and we also would like to have like the full feature spectrum so For those who know ripe Atlas So our name mobile Atlas basically is a homage to ripe Atlas ripe Atlas is a probe system developed and maintained by the European Internet authorities or administration and They have like the probes and you can do pings and trace routes between different autonomous systems However in a cellular world we have more than just an internet or data connection We also have like phone calls. We have ussd's we have text messaging So we would like to ideally do tests or have a test system that works on all these features So here short diagram traditional combinatorial explosion you put in probes in different countries and Replicate all the sim cards or you have something where you can tunnel the sim cards to one place and Save a lot of on on costs So basically that's what we did We decoupled the sim card where we can have a sim card reader Connected to a computer and we have done an TCP tunnel to our measurement probes and replicate the sim card there And so like at a management on top of it and you end up with a system Like on the left side you have the probes on the right So you have the sim cards and you have a sim provider Which is basically just a piece of software that connects to a PCSC or serial or or even an Android phone and Routes the sim card traffic to the probes It needs to be an online connection because the sim cards produce all the Cryptographic material that we need on the network side to authenticate and to encrypt the traffic there So This has been a project for Ongoing for five years now. So we have like you can see our left probe which Looks very crude. So we put in we had like a raspberry pi and a USB adapter and then M2 modem attached to this adapter and because everything was very loose in the box We put in like this yellow piece of foam in there to like hold everything in place But the current version looks much more professional It's a shield on top of the raspberry pi And so then you're also the only other thing you need as an ethernet connection for the uplink and So on one side we have the sim provider, which is basically just this piece of software that works with All the usual sim provider Sim card readers you can use the more expensive PCS-C readers or the very cheap Chinese sim readers that only speak a very crude serial protocol or you can even use Android phone. Oh We didn't have the picture Okay, or maybe it's they are maybe it's later in our slides. So I briefly want to talk about The challenges that we faced and like have to pick like two because of time so Let's talk about the sim interface and the sim protocol So the sim card protocol is basically a smart card protocol, but it's now 40 years old So you have a lot of different options voltages speeds And and all kinds of that and also it was designed to be To work within one device. So with very low latencies when we stretch that over half of the globe We need a few techniques to Cope with the latency So you can see for example, this is how we connected it to the GP with a sim Slot of the modem to the GPI opens of the raspberry pi We just made a very small simple adapter that we slot in our first version was actually directly sold it in And you can see just one component on it and that's a shot kid you know Why is that? Because the sim card I open is actually an open collector bus so on the Raspberry Pi side we need a shot kid diode to split up the send and to receive channels for the u-word and The pull-up resistor is already provided by the modem Luckily for us This reduces a lot of complexity for us We can negotiate speeds and voltages and other parameters Independently on the sim provider side and on the modem side. We don't have to pass it one One on one so that's eases much of the problems We can also add waiting time extensions and we tested it for latencies up to 1,000 milliseconds so this should be actually be good enough even for like star link connections and Future work. We'd like to also locally emulate some of the files that are not necessary For the for the modem or for the measurements to work the second problem that I like to mention is a traffic metering and We need a way to control the background traffic. So Let's step back. So some of the tests we want to do is test the accounting the data accounting of network operators So we need very precise measurements on What we are sending to the network and what is then accounted and so the background traffic? Is something that will mess up with these measurements and the other thing is that the call data records? Often are shown in the on the operator website With a large delay so domestically this can be like ours, but internationally this can be something around around days and Also, there is no like standardised way to check your account balance so some operators use an app or web application some can use or support ussd codes or SMS inquiries So to eliminate background traffic with basically Use Linux and the network spaces. That's the same thing that docker does so our measurement process is Put into a separate namespace that's then connected to The modem and only that one talks to the modem So all the traffic from the that process groups is routed through the modem and all the other things like the management Suite is all over the VPN They're completely separated. How do we they deal with delayed traffic accounting? Well, we came up with a binary encoding so What we do is like for example the first test Is what like one megabyte in size the second test is two megabyte the third one is four and And the fourth test is eight and so on So one of these also will be a control group So that at the end like maybe a day later when it finally shows up on the accounting balance We can then distinguish exactly which test was accounted and which wasn't like which traffic group You might ask well, you do all this thing to like tunnel Physical SIM cards across the globe. What's about eSims? The problem with eSims even though for example in the US. They're pretty relevant They are not widely available everywhere and also it's usually tends to only cover some part of some data plans and not all and They're not always easy transferable between devices so what we actually can do is we can use Bluetooth our sub protocol to connect to a Android phone that then shares the SIM card Over Bluetooth to our system does sim access profile was a we was actually delivered Developed somewhere in the 90s To allow cars to connect to your phone and then use the sim card on your phone and the modem from the car But today this is rarely actually used So the only thing you need to do on an Android is make the eSIM your primary SIM card and then you get the screen and you Allow the usage In the title we said carriers hate this trick That might be a little bit controversial. Why do we think carriers hate this trick? Well, SIM tunneling isn't exactly new. It has already been used for over-the-top bypass fraud so that's when you use batteries of sims or sim banks to Terminate international travel or international calls within a country because usually local core rates are cheaper than international interconnect fees However, we do actually the opposite. We are tunneling from domestic to abroad To test all the other networks So this might also hint why this might be an opportunity for carriers to have such a system because Nowadays carriers have to rely on their roaming partners to deliver the services the way that they wanted to for their customers but with With a system like this their carriers can actually verify the services and especially things like voice over LT roaming which lacks a good auto configuration protocol and it causes a lot of troubles in internationally This might actually help to test the different configurations So what have we learned during the implementation of our system? And a few Well, surprise some surprising results first if you like read like Almost any book on cellular networks They will basically say something among the lines that the Imzi is basically the unique identifier of a SIM card And that's they're also used to like find your home operator and stuff like that However, even in our small tests that we found several examples of SIM cards that can actually update the SIM the Imzi over the air or Change it dynamically. This is usually used for in for for selecting a roaming network, so it's not like you're not selecting the The network that you're using as a visitor you're selecting someone that will then that has all the Contracts in place with all the operators in the different country so that They have just one like one place to do their accounting and to work with another thing that we've learned is that Theoretically there is a 127 device limit on USB, but practically it's hard to get over 20 or 30 that has to do with lousy hardware weak drivers the power consumption even if you use Active hubs and we've tried Several things here are the pictures. So like on the left you can see like the bar We bought like a box of a hundred SIM card readers in on Ali express and then we tried to run them like naively on on all the single USB hubs that Turned out to be very error-prone And then we also tried this professional USB hubs that are used by or have been used by miners for like this USB FPGA boards But this also didn't work. Well Where do we stand today? So now our system is deployed to 10 European countries and to North American You can see Canada isn't fully covered that has to do with That in Canada not all the bare metal operators Are available in all the provinces our current Probe in Canada is in the Yukon territory So that's why it's just half green ethical considerations So there are some ethical considerations. We have to talk about you might for example ask Why don't why do we use modems and don't use software defined radios? I mean one on the one side software defined radios give you much more capabilities on the radio side on the other side All the open source implementations usually only focus on one access technology so you cannot get like a GSM implementation or you can get an LTE implementation, but you cannot get like One implementation that covers all the access technologies and the other thing is that it's Regulatory minefield so we give out or we so far we gave out these probes to friends and family in different countries and We cannot like Subject them to the risk of having a software defined radio and all the radio Radioregulatory problems that might come with that so we rather opt for unmodified globally certified Modems that are safe to use in all the countries The second thing that I want to mention is We do not enrich ourselves with our with our tests for example with the traffic accounting tests So we made sure that at the end of the month we let expire at least that amount of traffic that wasn't accounted in our tests and With that I'll switch over to Gabriel who will talk about The results and what you can actually do with our system Yeah, thank you. So I would say let the games begin. So let's take a look at What we can do with this fancy platform? I'll walk you through a few showcases of course our platform has very versatile capabilities But the first one will be an internet Related measurement case so it will be about serrating measurements It will be billing measurements and also after presenting the measurements We will show some some proof of concept how you could abuse this serrating Offers or how an attacker could abuse this to to gain some free internet traffic So what is serrating actually there are some? providers that offers the that offers this kind of Programs and offers usually they provide several groups for Applications so in this screenshot example there is a group for messaging application for social media applications and also for video so for example for Netflix and Yeah, they offer this the customers can can buy a package and then they can gain By buying this package they gain unmetered access to to this kind of applications Of course from a career perspective This data traffic all the data traffic that passes their provider needs to be classified so they need to be It needs to be separated and needs to be classified into build traffic and also serrating traffic And let's take a look at which possibilities they are for for the cellular Carrier so which metrics could be used for the classification a very old metric that Has been used back in the days to classify and to then block bit torrent traffic was the TCP or UDP port Nowadays, it's mainly used in conjunction with some other metrics Because it's kind of vague Most of the traffic anyway is web traffic, so it might be using port for for free And yeah, you could easily like fake this port thereby, it's not that reliable However, the IP address is kind of accurate Especially for all those big services like WhatsApp Usually the IP address of the services is pretty static. So it's a reliable classification metric Some provider might use some some cloud hosting so some applications But yeah, usually if it's a big application, it's it's pretty stable. So it's a good classification metric Also, some operators use the packet inspection. So this is when the classification mechanism doesn't Only look at the packet header, but also at the content of the packets So the classifier needs to be protocol aware. It needs to understand what the fields of the protocol mean And yeah, this is also commonly used Also for our measurements, we focused on IP address and on the packet inspection classification For the packet inspection, we mainly focused on host name-based classification But also there are some other metrics. So some operators, for example, classify by the time to live to to detect or to block mobile hotspots and Since yeah, this is kind of popular with any problem. There are also some people throwing machine learning at it Yeah, let's take a look for the packet inspection So this is a deep packet inspection. So this is an example for host name-based classification If the traffic is just HTTP free, it's pretty straightforward because we do not have any encryption So the classifier can simply take a look at the host header of the protocol If it's an encrypted connection like HTTPS or HTTP free The classifier actually has to take a look at the TLS handshake and thereby Take a look at the clientel or message that contains the server name indication But yeah, it's again pretty similar. So just the host name is extracted and thereby the traffic is classified Yeah, within our study, we've bought some SIM cards. We've measured seven operators of three different countries and within those SIM cards, we've analyzed available Applications, urating applications, and we figured that WhatsApp, Snapchat and Facebook and Facebook Messenger were the most popular applications They are like any Android or iOS application. They are heavily communicating via web APIs, via web endpoints We got some traffic dumps from from those applications and also reverse engineered applications and Yeah, we found some some endpoints that we could use of our measurements to to probe this kind of web servers and For the selected web endpoints We found that they support HTTP, HTTPS and HTTP free and also they are hosted via dual stack so you could communicate to them via IPv4 or IPv6 Yeah, we've had two measurement campaigns and Yeah, we've measured with with executed measurements in the domestic case, but also during roaming conditions Basic methodology for these kind of serrating measurements was to get the credits then to execute some experiments and then wait for the data to be built and again Yeah, get the credit and calculate the delta And within the experiment we had some payload that was potentially serrated and afterwards as Adrian already explained We also had some control traffic That was acting as a marker. So we knew when all the data units were built and For the serrating experiments We had three experiments The first one was to verify that actual that the web endpoints that we selected are actually serrating serrated and The other two were to kind of learn more about the classification So the to detect IP based the host name-based classification methods. So this is a chart for the very first experiment We have our mobile Atlas measurement probe on the left side and we have some web endpoints on the right side So in this case, we are probing WhatsApp so we are just repeatedly querying or retrieving some some web endpoints until our specified data Units were retrieved and afterwards we do the same with some control traffic that usually is bigger And when the control traffic Is built we know That the experiment is finished and we can say whether the first traffic was subtracted from our data quota or whether or not To detect IP based classification the test case was pretty similar. So the actors didn't change but we Just spoofed the host header. So the data packets were still going to the WhatsApp web server But the host header didn't match the WhatsApp endpoint anymore. And so if for this case the packets still were serrated we knew that most probably some IP based classification is in place And we did a similar thing to detect host name-based classification But we needed to introduce another actor So in this test case, we automatically spin up an AWS instance that just forwards all the necessary ports to the WhatsApp application so to the to the WhatsApp web server and thereby the host header didn't change because the content of the data packets was exactly the same But the IP address changed. So when the traffic classifier is watching the data packets is inspecting the data packets the host header is still WhatsApp, but the IP address is the IP address of our AWS instance and thereby if the traffic is still serrated in this case We knew again that some host name-based classification is used So let's come to some results Yeah, as you can see we found that operators are using both IP based and host name-based classification Sometimes they even combine it. So in these cases they serrated the traffic when either one of the rules applied and interestingly for two operators actually we were not able to verify serrating. So all the the tested packets were fully built although this operator promoted and sold some serrating packages to their customers We were very surprised by this and to make sure that this isn't just a quirk of our measurement methodology, we also simulated this on our smartphone So we we just verified it. We downloaded the Facebook application We plucked our sim cards the corresponding sim cards and we again did some measurements And we could verify that a huge portion So over 90% of the actual application traffic was wrongfully built Yeah, additionally some operators turned off serrating during roaming. So this already was challenged by the national regulators in some countries and Yeah, nevertheless, we found some operators still doing this Additionally we found one operator that was a billing traffic when the endpoint was Retrieved by IPv6. So when IPv6 was used The packets again were wrongfully built similarly for HTTP free. So when we were accessing the relevant endpoints relevant application by HTTP free again the traffic was fully built and Interestingly for one operator as I showed earlier We had two measurement campaigns for one operator actually the packets got built in the first period But then it got fixed and in the second period it was fine Yeah So Archie is a security researcher. So he is not only interested in how those things work But also how he or he an attacker could exploit these kind of things Yeah, we have two cases. So the first one is if hostname-based classification was used in this case For HTTP, it's pretty straightforward. You just would need to write some relaying script that fakes the host header Sometimes the provider during the classification even just uses a simple reg X for the host string If HTTPS was used it's maybe a little more complex, but still this is just content of the packets So you can you can spoof that you can change that and you could maybe like implement something on the top of OpenVPN and spoof the SNI to to kind of pretend to be What's a traffic for example? So this is similar to to domain fronting this technique if it's for TLS connections For IP-based classification this however is a little more complex So you would need to have a server where you could spoof IP addresses Also, it would only work for the downlink because if the client sends some packets to some Spotify P Obviously or some some whatsapp IP. Obviously the packets will just Yeah, land at Spotify or at WhatsApp, but for the downlink. This is a feasible thing to do. So you could simply Replace the the source IP address at your relay point at your VPN maybe and then pretend to be Spotify and then the packets will be classified as serrated packets and and you can get Some some free internet or an attacker could do that Yeah for TCP it might be a little more complex because we have this connection-based approach and we have the freeway handshake But for UDP this is totally feasible. So and and this is what we did We had a sim card with Spotify with free Spotify We set up a VPN with wireguards on the server where we could spoof the packets and Yeah, then we wrote the kernel module a kernel extension that rewrites the peer-dress of the outgoing packets and Yeah for the provider these kind of packets look like Spotify and We already came up with a nice name for for this proof of concept and I hope you like it as well So we called it spoofify Okay, now let's continue with some other showcases. So the second one is some privacy-related showcase. It's Location tracking with ringback tones. So what is the ringback tone? The ringback tone is the tone that you hear when you call somebody and when you basically wait for them to to pick up So it's this audio feedback that you get The interesting thing is that this is issued by the terminating operator. So in case of roaming this is issued by the roaming partner and The interesting thing as well is that we have different ringback tones for different regions So for example in the US operators use this dual ringing of 440 and 480 Hertz and in Europe most operators use something around 425 Hertz so for these two cases you could even hear the difference with your bare ear But also we found that within Europe when operators use very similar settings. It's totally feasible to Record this tone and to differentiate between operators. So I'll show you some examples This is from Vodafone in Romania. We have a peak frequency of 430 Hertz This is the spectrum and also at the left. We see the amplitude if we compared to a German provider We see that another different at different frequencies used and also that the amplitude differs So it's louder for the German provider And if we compared to another German provider, we see that the Frequency stays the same, but the amplitude change and also like the signal is less clear there are some side lobes some yeah, and We did this for all the available operators and then we printed a scatter plot with the Amplitude and with the frequency and as you see this is kind of nice scattered nice divided across the diagram the figure so Yeah, you can easily take those two metrics and and Determine the the operator that terminated the call and yeah, you can use this to Kind of find out the country of the person that you could just called So you just need one test call and then you know that the country where the person is in Also, you could of course use some some other metrics like the overtones. I just showed you Or some some duty cycle. We also had differences in this Or you could also use some other call progress stones to to fingerprint And this is also interesting from a techer perspective for sim swapping because you could also use this to Find out the responsible home operator and then you know Yeah, whom you need to call to swap the sim card. Maybe Yeah, now, let's come to the last showcase. So this is some Projective sim communication showcase Since we tunnel all this sim communication. We have full access to the to the communication to the payload that is sent Between the modem and the sim card and sim cards are kind of mighty and powerful microcontrollers So they can even run some Java they can there is this instruction set of projective sim commands Where the sim basically can take over control and can tell the smartphone what to do So it the sim could tell the smartphone to send an SMS message to display some some text on the on the handset And yeah, since we have all this Communication of our measurements we can analyze it and for measured sim cards we found two sim cards that were phoning home so that were covertly sending some binary SMS messages and This is pretty scary actually because it happens totally in the in the background the user the smartphone user doesn't know of it Interestingly also we had some cases where this kind of binary SMS Were also built by the operator. So during roaming these SMSes were even built That's pretty shit from a user perspective Yeah, we tried to analyze the content of this binary SMS and we found out that there is some Information about the user equipment. So for example the EMI but also from the sim card So ECCC ID and MC were in there Yeah, if you're interested in getting some more insights, we've published two papers So the first one is about serrating measurements It's called serrating one big mess and the second one is basically the white paper of our platform It was just presented at the USNICS conference some days ago So for conclusion Archibald can now like when he's traveling Spend more times with his friends because with for all the measurements like longitudinal measurements or Explored testing and development. He can now use a platform to do this from the comfort of his home We find Roaming especially interesting because it's this special case where two operators with completely different setup have to cooperate and Pretend to be one and we showed you a few use cases You find more in in our paper from two days ago from USNICS security About like how to hide and dress up traffic As one of the free services, so you don't have to pay for it how you can locate other Subscribers based on the ringback tone and some internals such as proactive sim communication We'd like to thank all these institutions like an L net University of Vienna Technical University of Vienna SBA research sysbar and the SSL laboratory from UCI For supporting us over this five years you find The URL and our contact information up here the whole project is open sourced If you are from an country that you think that is interesting to us to host a probe Please get in contact with us We have actually brought some probes here to Defcon and yes Thank you a lot