Okay, it is 701 Welcome everybody to town of Scotty you up Sorry, so welcome everybody. Welcome everybody to the town of Williston Development Review board Located here in the police Conference room for Tuesday, November 12th We're gonna get going at 701 and bring the meeting to order. There are a number of items on the agenda tonight Paul did have a suggestion About going slightly out of order So we're gonna start we are actually gonna start with DP 17-01 point two black rock construction I'm assuming there are probably some people here who are interested in that Is Ben here Anybody here more people are probably here for the the V-trans. Okay. All right So let's see if we can well, I just I said that is Did you expect anybody here from black rock or is this a perfunctory It's perfunctory, but I did speak to Ben Avery today and expect to be here But he didn't know when I talked him that he was he was second to last on the agenda So he made okay, so he's gonna so all right, so maybe that won't work Which makes me concerned that maybe others right so we won't start with that So I think we maybe need to go in order. Yeah for that reason. Yeah I Don't forget public comment for things not on the agenda. I have one thing I want to mention. Okay. All right, so All right So so much for going out of order, I guess we'll go in order Also going in order. We do start with a public comment It sounds like our illustrious staff has something he wants to say Just really quickly to the chair and the board I wanted to recognize and welcome Bonnie Woodford Bonnie is our new planning technician and joined the staff just today Yes, this is my last DRB meeting where she ever gets to stand over there and just watch Welcome to the staff and welcome to Willis and thank you for coming. So Back up to full strength in the office and thrilled to have her with us Welcome Bonnie Any other anything else the Audience would like to bring before the board that is not on the agenda No, okay for the First thing tonight is DP 20-14 Adams real properties LLC. We're gonna bring that We're gonna open up that hearing at 703 Mr. Adams if you would state your name and your address, please Jason Adams 207 Boyer circle Welcome Yes So this is a request for discretionary permit to establish outdoor storage on an existing parcel Sorry on an existing paved area and to install a fence at 78 and 90 Adams Drive Parcels currently developed with three structures and access drive parking and other related This is the first time the DRB is reviewing this request and due to the scale the project proposal Pre-application review by the board was not required. So we're straight into the discretionary permit stage of review You can see a permitting history going back Into 1985 the original creation of the town park subdivision and some more recent approvals related to the addition of parking spaces on the site So the proposed use related to the proposed outdoor storage is ABC supply, which is a roofing supply retailer at the Parcel address wholesale trade, which is what that is isn't allowed use in the industrial zoning district West There are no changes to access proposed Adams Drive is a private road with a curb cut onto Williston Road a state highway There are no new buildings proposed There is an eight-foot tall chain link fence with barbed wire and a 16 foot long sliding gate for truck access and a four-foot gate for More access proposed to enclose the outdoor storage area There's no new site work proposed. This area is over existing pavement In terms of nearby wetlands waterways and conservation areas the muddy brook is the property line of this parcel on the western side And there is existing wooded vegetation located in the 150 foot setback to the muddy brook The applicant is proposing outdoor storage. This is in compliance with the requirements of chapter 36 of the Williston development by-law Which is the industrial zoning district West chapter? Outdoor storage is permitted in this district, but it is required to be identified on an approved site plan We have always taken approved site plan to mean approved by the development Why it's in front of you for a hearing tonight This parcel because it fronts on Williston Road It is in our town's design review district as well as in the industrial district However, the design review criteria do not apply because the building at 731 Adams Drive obstructs the view of the outdoor storage between 78 and 90 Adams Drive so you can't see it from the State highway adjacent There are no proposed changes to lighting landscaping setbacks street trees parking traffic utilities water and wastewater or storm water on this site We did not receive any public comment on this application at the point where we mailed out the package to you Nor have we received any sense. We did circulate these plans for comment from the police fire and public works department We did not receive comment back from police and fire public works did provide a comment memo, which is attached to your report Asking for identification of all utilities and it's a calculation of the amount of impervious surface on the site Staff is recommending approval of this discretionary permit with findings of fact conclusions of law and conditions of approval as stated below the staff report You'll note that these conditions of approval are all essentially Boiler plate with the minor Exception that the public works memo and date is referenced as a condition of approval and I will stop there Jason what do you want to add? Just for your based on those public works comments This fence is not increasing impervious surfaces, but the total impervious Is about 47 percent which leaves about 53 percent green space. That's all existing now. There's no change to that And you'll tell that you'll tell that to DPW. Yeah, well, I'll add that to a site plan and and If you guys are wondering there is a gas line that runs basically along the East or right side of 90 Adams Drive to the back of the building where one meter serves The back half of that building. That's really the only utility that'll be Not affected by this but in kind of the way of this But we'll obviously dig safe it and and miss those utilities. Hopefully Okay barbed wire Yeah, these national companies. I find that their security standards are not really Honed in for our area They have concerns in other parts of the country and they kind of just have a standard questions from the board Just it will be just the two sections of fence added those one in the front and the one in the back Yep, the one along basically going right across from 78 Adams across the pavement to 90 Adams Drive and Then there is a little piece of fence in the back so behind the 90 Adams Drive building it drops off pretty steep to muddy brook and Basically right before the property line it drops off pretty good in the back. So this is just a little deterrent You would have to have have a pretty motivated person to Even go behind. I don't know how they would get behind that ATVs. I guess I don't know But they wanted just a little piece to deter that even further So if there won't be a gate or anything there, it's just basically from the building to where it drops off as another deterrent Primarily shingles on on pallets in bundles And and potentially some other building materials. That's all they sell Just from the smaller outdoor storage areas they have now I they've never stored siding or anything like that It's always been shingles So primarily shingles possibly other building materials Yeah, we'll put a lot we'll well the lockbox around the post so I'm trying to you've got three or four different areas here. You've designated for outdoor storage. Yeah, I mean it's not everything behind the fence It's just the areas that you've indicated They're either hatched and says proposed outdoor storage. Yeah, the hashed area is the is the new outdoor storage The space that's kind of triangular shaped behind 78 Adams Drive was approved I think in 2012 ish and then there was existing outdoor storage in front of 90 Adams Drive So the only so the new fence kind of encloses There was another tenant in 90 Adams Drive. They've moved out ABC supplies taking that over as well as 78 So now they they're the only person who needs access to the paved area between the two buildings So they want to secure that so basically so they can use it for themselves And then and that other small rectangular area. Oh, yeah That's I don't know when that was approved, but it's been there for a long and that's gonna stay it'll stay There's three existing areas that are staying and you're adding this one other area that's that's approved Requesting that it be approved right everybody else up Any questions from the audience Jason anything else you want to add Anything else you'd like to add. Nope. Thank you for coming Okay, we're going to close DP 20-14 at 712 Okay, next up is a pre-application for DP 20-15 Zuzan subdivision and we're gonna open the hearing at 712 gentlemen. Welcome Names and addresses, please 1120 butternut road Jesse Lauer 1120 butternut road great Melinda this you yes This is a request for a pre-application review of a two-lot subdivision of a 5.2 70 Residential zoning this one. Melinda, can you speak up just a bit? Property is currently developed with a single family dwelling and access driveway Proposed residential development will add one dwelling unit to the site for total This is pre-application Stage of review Which is a concept level review This is presented in informal way that invites common discussion of alternatives This is the first time the DRB has reviewed a proposal for subdivision on this personal Subject parcel has existed 90 There is one existing single family dwelling on the parcel and the applicant is proposing one additional single family Rural uses are allowed in the ARZD Willston development bylaw chapter 19 Density does require that lands with wetlands wetland buffers and slopes in excess of 30% Be taken out of the density calculation and that lands with slopes between 15 29.9% be calculated at a reduced density of one dwelling unit per 10 acres There are no state mapped wetlands or wetland advisory areas on the subject parcel The applicants engineer conducted a site visit and concluded there are no existing wetlands on the property a Wetland assessment or and or delineation has not been performed Based on the information provided staff didn't constraints analysis that I provided in a table below so there are Approximately 1.22 acres of slopes between 15 and 29.9% and There are no wetlands greater than 30% There are 4.05 acres of unconstrained land Leading yielding a Allowable density 23 dwelling units That's two dwelling units the applicant is proposing two units including the existing one This project is not subject to the requirements of setting aside open space because The parent parcel is less than 10.5 acres The project proposed project meets minimum lot size requirements and medium minimum lot furniture requirements Staff is not recommending a traffic study for this project Permits for a new single family impact fee a new shared driveway is proposed for lot one and two The applicant is proposing to relocate their existing driveway approximately 162 feet northeast along butternut road A 30-foot wide easement will be provided across lot one to access lot two The existing driveway will be removed, but there's a right-of-way on that driveway for the Howard subdivision and that will remain The establishment of a new driveway will require an access permit issued by the Williston Department of Public Works For landscaping and setbacks A side and rear setback of 15 feet and applied to lot two for future development boundaries Staff recommends that existing vegetation should be retained to the greatest extent feasible There is an existing on-site waste water or water and wastewater and the proposed new dwelling will have On-site wastewater as well The applicants engineer Who's that the land can support an additional wastewater system and System design and state permits are not required at the pre-application review phase a water and wastewater Permit will be required for an administrative permit to construct a new dwelling The existing home has a 50-foot underground connection to the existing above-ground power Located on the second of two existing poles on the parcel the proposed unit will also have an underground connection to the first existing pole on the parcel for Water Waterways and wetlands and conservation areas There are no there are no state map class to wetlands on the subject parcel and a site investigation Determined there are no wetlands present on the property the parcel is within a significant wildlife habitat area and Habitat disturbance assessment Will be required at the discretionary permit review stage The project area is within a secondary foreground view shed area as identified in the visual assessment official map Wdb 27.9 directs the DRB to consider view shed impacts to this view shed and apply conditions of approval to mitigate those impacts as part of the review of this project For trail easements, there are no desired primitive trails shown on the property On map 17 of the Wilson comprehensive plan and the applicant has not proposed a public trail easement as part of this project for growth management Wdb 11 to dot 2 dot 1 States that one dwelling may be constructed on any undeveloped parcel that was and has continued to be separate ownership since 1990 which was when the town adopted its first first growth management system There's no record of subdivision of the subject parcel since 1990 and thus the growth management exemption applies The applicant retains the right for one dwelling unit and if so authorized We'll proceed with a residential growth management allocation request for one additional dwelling unit Residential growth management allocation is a competitive process To obtain residential growth management allocation without obtaining them Exemption a project must receive a minimum score of 30 points Project will be scored using the evaluation criteria for proposed residential subdivisions outside the sewer service area More information about growth management can be found in Wdb chapter 11 Staff can provide guidance to applicants who have questions about the growth management criteria No comment letters from the public were received by the planning and zoning office at the time of the mail out on November 7th The police did not respond to our request for comments The Department of Public Works has no comments at this time and The fire department stated that they have no requests at this time, but may have some Requirements if the project moves forward for to discretionary permit stage The applicant is encouraged to meet with the Department of Public Works and the fire department prior to submitting So that they understand what the requirements are Conservation Commission Reviewed this application and made two recommendations one that a habitat disturbance assessment should be Conducted and submitted as part of a discretionary permit application and the second that The application for discretionary permit be accompanied by a completed runoff an erosion control checklist And that Yeah, so staff is recommending that the DRB authorized DP 2015 to proceed to growth management review In more Some recommendations for you to consider Great. Thanks a bunch. I'm back on number nine page three Can you can you tell me what what exactly is a performance-based mound type wastewater system? Not something I have run across before you want to answer that it's the language that the that TCE used in Okay, so you don't know you don't know either. Yeah, I don't know okay Anybody know What is it? What is it? Following the rules. Can you state your name? You don't need to stand up Or that I am a psych technician designing septic systems Performance-based are when you cannot quite Okay, so in other words it gives you it gives you a little wiggle room Is a press B system included in that That's a gravity-fed system Okay, thank you Kevin what would you Kevin and Jesse? What would you like to add to that? Synopsis since you brought up the performance-based mound type wastewater system We are we're also proposing to and and I believe that this is also the state is Requiring us to because there's an existing dwelling that has a traditional Leech field to design a backup system for that so that will be Designed in case that should fail on the existing Dwelling and it will be the same type of system for the new dwelling as well And we're proposing because of the slope of the land the presby systems which are gravity-fed systems Just just believe it's on the lot that that I would be retrain retaining for the existing home Yes, it would be on that Are they gonna require a The proposed system and a backup system On the new lot no, I'm just just the proposed and we did Our engineer invited the state to join us for the soil testing. So she was on-site And concurred with all his findings as well. I understand this is still pre-application process So we didn't dive too deep into it. We haven't designed it yet Just to see if we could in fact do it And then additionally Prior to the letters going out to all of our budding neighbors Notifying them of this hearing we took steps to to go and speak to each one of our Neighbors that have bought the property and the owners across the street from the property Just in this conceptual stage to have that conversation now about what it's going to look like in order to Ask for their feedback and their insight their concerns We spoke Face-to-face with everybody except for one of our new neighbors that we've not had the opportunity to speak to but we did reach out To them as well. So not that we've gotten everybody's blessing We haven't gotten a lot of negative feedback as well, but we have invited folks to Participate in the process with us Jesse describes this as a really nice It's a little microcosm. It's where butternuts its own little community So the more that we can include them and keep them in the loop on what we're doing The more in the spirit of butternut road, I feel it we feel it is Okay Paul Kevin so It is now a split driveway if your new neighbor decides that he's working at five in the morning Are you guys getting up to plow that section for him so you can get out in the winter? I'm sure that we have some sort of agreement in place, but I've maintained the driveway now And I'll probably continue to maintain it and I was I was up this morning And I'm a pastry chef. I'm already out the door to work at five in the morning. So So he has to he's first tracks The idea also to to move the existing driveway was a conversation we've already had with With bill about moving that driveway because it's really in a tough spot on the corner of butternut Or there's a turn there at the top of the hill With the Halloween storm the the culvert failed again and all of the water took out part of the road So we were prior to us even considering this we had that conversation about moving the driveway further along butternut road it will be safer and Cost less to maintain it So we'll even if we don't move forward with this project. We'll move forward. We'll move in the driveway but maintaining the the right-of-way for Gary Howard And you'll be happy to know that we had a nice sit-down with Gary and I think you probably did because he's not here Yeah Yeah, so that's the last pole on butternut road is is the one that feeds my house So they're very excited about us considering bearing the two poles that are On the property and that's what we would like to do is there's one pole that would Feed the new dwelling and then we would go underground from that pole to Our current dwelling which right now is another pole So we would be removing yet another that easement would then be reduced So we had the conversation with them about that and they were really kind of excited about not having to maintain yet Another pole at the end of the line The questions for the board Yeah Comment where it's set to instead about doing the wildlife study you go with that, right? Oh, yeah That new driveway Finally decide what you're doing the third purpose can tell you what they have you know the load of the engine support That's all the Right now they currently can't make it up to the dwelling So I'd like for them to be able to make it Right now they have to hike up there, so I'm saying that's the feedback. They're probably in TV. Yeah Yeah, yeah, absolutely, and we'll um, we'll do everything we can to make sure A quick question for staff on the Trail easement. Is there any value there? No No, not in this case their their parcel is really small to begin with and it's very close to the the Howard parcel that Was subdivided last year and which their The town did obtain a trail easement, so the conservation Commission didn't see any value in Package together or did TCE I worked on it primarily but Tessie's TCE you get nominated for a homeowner package It's very good. Oh, thank you. I would second I can't take all the credit. We Realize the services of TCE take it Any questions from the audience comments questions Anybody want to say anything? We're missing mr. Howard. Okay? Anything else from the anything else from board? Hopefully we'll see you in March Yeah, so you I do suggest you get with the the staff on the growth management Process okay, thank you a single lot subdivision there it is. It's not easy to get through Okay, all right Anything else anything from the audience? Board's fine, okay, we're gonna close DP 20-15 was using subdivision at 731. Thank you Thank you for coming Okay, next up is DP 20-16 Jennifer and Way we we almost trend so this is a first in 12 or 13 years of sitting on this board having never seen a variance before or a request for variance So name and address please Evan Fitzgerald Fitzgerald environmental 18 seven screen Colchester, Vermont All right Matt Linda's got this Linda. All right This is a request for a variance to allow a reduction of the front yard Setback and a reduction of the watershed protection buffer For the purposes of constructing a proposed wastewater system for a three bedroom single family home accessory apartment at 555 Oak Hill Road in the agricultural rural residential zone Subject property is approximately 64 point one acres in size and is currently undeveloped Subject parcel has existed since before 1990 and the property has not been developed This is the first time the DRB has reviewed this proposal This is a request for a variance from the required 50-foot watershed protection buffer for class 2 wetlands and The required 50-foot street setback The applicant proposes to construct a wastewater system for three bedroom single family home with accessory apartment on the subject property The variance is being requested to allow a reduction of the street setback From 50 feet to 13 feet and to allow a reduction of the wetland buffer from 50 feet to 8 feet So there are two primary setbacks that potentially affect the development potential of the subject property The first being the 50-foot watershed protection buffer for wetlands and the second is the required 50-foot setback from Oak Hill Road The combined effect of these two required setbacks Means that there's virtually no area on the subject property that can be developed in strict conformance for the town's development regulations The subject property has not yet been developed and would otherwise be undevelopable without the granting of a variance So in the consideration of granting a variance as required by Vermont statute 44 69 There are five specific Requirements or tests of the law that the request must meet in order for the DRB to grant the request These are spelled out in the lowest and development bylaw chapter 8 And it should be also be pointed out that all five of these Criteria must be met in order for the variance to be granted Not simply a majority of the five Based on the information presented and a review of the applicable development requirements and standards staff has Preparate has prepared a discussion of the applicant's request against the five variance criteria And I'll go through them The first is there are unique physical circumstances or conditions including irregularity Narrowness or shallness shallowness of the lot size or shape or exceptional Topographical or other physical conditions peculiar to the particular property and that Unnecessary hardship is due to these conditions and not the circumstances or conditions Generally created by the provisions of this bylaw in the neighborhood or district in which the property is located so essentially What we're dealing with is that the class 2 wetlands cover the vast majority of the 64 acre parcel Class 2 wetlands and their associated buffers are protected by state statute and the Williston development bylaw chapter 29 There are two areas accessible from town roads that are suitable for development and wastewater disposal outside of class 2 wetlands and their 50-foot buffers The first is a one acre area along South Road And the second is a two acre area along Oak Hill Road So each of these two areas would require a variance as it turns out because the area along South Road also The wastewater would encroach into the hundred and fifty foot setback of I 89 the site along Oak Hill Road The wastewater system encroaches into the front yard into the 50-foot setback of Oak Hill Road and the wetland buffer So The location that is along South Road would actually Result in much greater impact to the wetlands because a force main would be Necessary to get the water from the proposed house location on Oak Hill Road and get it over it would have to pass under or through wetlands on the parcel and Cause approximately five thousand square feet of impact if that was the the Proposed location So the location off of Oak Hill Road Would would still require a variance, but would cause less impact to wetlands So in summary because the these unique physical circumstances are present Wetlands cover all but a small portion of the property and the hardship is due to these conditions Staff is recommending that this criterion for a variance has been met by the applicant The next criteria Because of these physical circumstances or conditions, there's no possibility that the property can be developed in strict conformity with the provisions of this bylaw and That the authorization of a variance is therefore necessary to enable the reasonable use of the property so Both the state and the town's restrictions on class to wetland and buffer impacts Precludes the use of a force main traversing the property from South Road to Oak Hill Road and effectively forces the owner to cite the dwelling and wastewater disposal area within close proximity The limited space along South Road for both a dwelling in a wastewater system due to wetland and road setbacks makes the area along Oak Hill Road The only practical solution for a single family home Additionally the previous wastewater system along South Road also does not conform to the town's 150 foot setback requirement and in itself would require a variance So essentially the Waste water proposed wastewater system is Located Where it has to be located in order to work It's oriented in in that direction. It needs to be in order to function And it still would encroach on the wetland buffer and the Oak Hill Road right right of way And the and the location of the mound system along Oak Hill Road is the only location of suitable soils So the property is currently not developed the applicant wishes to develop it with a three bedroom single family home and accessory apartment Staff recommends the DRB consider this scale of development to be a reasonable use of the property because it is similar in scale To typical residential uses in Williston Accessory dwellings are allowed under the bylaw In fact are required by state statute to be a permitted use Such development is not possible in strict conformity with the bylaw therefore variance is necessary staff is recommending that the criterion This criterion under WDB 8 1 3 2 for variance has been met by the applicant So moving on to the next criteria The unnecessary hardship has not been created by the appellant or his or predecessors in interest The unnecessary hardship the owners faced in building one single family home on a 64 Parcel is a function of the natural site constraints and DC permitting Restrictions for weapons the hardship has not been created due to prior Subdivision of the lot by the owner or past owners or by any other action taken by the current owner Staff recommends that this criterion for variance has been met by the applicant The fourth criteria is the variance if authorized will not alter the essential character of the neighborhood or district in which the property is located Substantially or permanently impair the appropriate use or development of an adjacent property Reduce access to renewable energy resources or be detrimental to the public welfare the proposed wastewater mounds which would that's the What would encroach on this on the setbacks not a house it would be a wastewater system It will not present represent a significant departure from other mode and landscaped areas along the Oak Hill Road right of way Including the Thomas Chittenden health center immediately crossed from the proposed house and mounds system As well as other nearby single-family residences with lawns adjacent to Oak Hill Road The proposed wastewater mound will not impair the appropriate use or development of adjacent property reduce access to energy Resources or be detrimental to the public welfare In accordance with Vermont DEC wetlands permit and the Welleston Conservation Commission recommendations The permitted edge of the wetland buffer disturbance is proposed to be demarcated with permanent markers fencing or boulders To prevent further encroachment on the wetland The Vermont DEC wetland permit decision states that that the proposed wetland buffer use will not cause undue Adverse effects on the protected functions and values of the significant wetland and associated buffer zone and the conservation Commission concurs with this finding Staff is recommending that this criterion for variance has been met by the applicant and the final criteria The variance if authorized will represent the minimum variance that will afford relief and will represent the least Deviation possible from the bylaw and the town plan So the current design of the wastewater disposal area Eliminates direct impacts to class 2 wetlands and results in the minimum amount of wetland buffer impact In comparison to the previously designed wastewater system which would have resulted in much greater impacts to wetlands and wetland buffers and Would have encroached on another town road setback So the Vermont DEC wetland permit Which was issued in August of 2019? Allows this impact to the buffer and recognizes that the impacts to the significant wetlands and buffer have been minimized to the greatest extent possible So the variance request To reduce the street and wetland setbacks is for a wastewater mound system not a dwelling or other structure The request is the minimum variance that will allow for single-family dwelling given site constraints and alternatives Analysis completed on the property to minimize impacts to natural resources Additionally the requested reduction of wetland buffers been approved by the Vermont DEC and therefore given a determination of minimal impact Unsignificant wetland functions and values staff is recommending that this criterion for variance has been met by the applicant the conservation commission reviewed this project and Had Few recommendations Basically number one because the variance request meets the necessary criteria the town should grant a variance for the proposed reduction and setbacks The their second recommendation is to demarcate the wetland on the site plan and permanently on the ground and That mowing in the water this third recommendation was that mowing in the watershed protection buffer Shall be limited to what is minimally required for the maintenance of the wastewater system the police department and Fire Department and Department of Public Works had no comments except that Public Works stated our ROW permit will be required for the new driveway access and the driveway culvert shall be appropriately sized Staff is recommending the DRB accept and adopt the following findings affecting conclusions of law and rendering its decision Could you clarify one item for me? Page three Regarding the accessory dwelling so the fact that the accessory dwelling is a permitted use Allows it to supersede the requirement for a variance No That's what I get that's what that's what I read Okay, so it would seem to me that it would seem to me that because it's a variance We would look for the we would look for the minimum amount of encroachment possible adding a adding a accessory dwelling Increases the size of the mount system consequently increases the encroachment Why is that allowed if we are trying to minimally impact the Wetlands because This is allowing a reasonable use of the property and It's you know, it's similar. It's similar in scale to other Residential uses and that are permitted and including accessory dwellings Please do if if this Your proposal and and you are you You're not the athlete you you are not the applicant You're representing okay, so if they were to propose let's say a two-bedroom dwelling or I presume that the accessory apartment is at least one bedroom. How is it one bedroom? It's one so they've so they've gotten approved before bedroom system Okay, so Would a smaller system or would a system that was designed for three or two bedrooms encroach less It would encroach less, but there would still be a setback Relief requirement in both the wetland buffer and the front yard according to our calculations, so How much less for say a two-bedroom? How much less for a three-bedroom than a four-bedroom? I'm not sure. I know the answer to all three of those scenarios, but for example a four-bedroom apartment would require about 10 feet less 10 to 15 feet less of the length of the mound system a four-bed or a three-bed So you have four. Oh, I do Four-bed is what you have proposed right four-bed room. That's correct. Well, it's three-bedroom and an accessory apartment Yes, yes, so then okay, so what would a three-bedroom without an accessory apartment? I Have Don't have those calculations right in front of me, but a three-bedroom I can do some quick math To give you a sense While you're doing the math, I'm gonna ask Matt a question Is this is this a Right of the applicant to have an accessory dwelling is that what that what I'm reading in in the analysis in the staff notes So what statute says is that wherever you permit single-family homes to be constructed a Single-family home can add an accessory dwelling unit if it can meet all of the development standards, so You are you're out on a little bit of the fuzzy edge here what you're really determining as a board is What is What is the minimum variance necessary for the reasonable use of this piece of property? We have 64 acres in the agrural zoning district where the typical house is A three-plus bedroom house many of the houses in the agrural district are our houses of a scale that includes an accessory apartment like this so what the staff has proposed is that what the applicant wants to do is Close enough if not pretty much the typical agrural Williston house and that if you were to Continue to reduce the size of that house as measured by its bedroom count at some point if you were saying well fine You can develop these 60 64 acres. You can have a one-bedroom house You would you would really be probably falling on the side of having taken all Acceptable use of that piece of land so one thing for the board to be thinking about is for this particular case what's the What's the typical reasonable? Sort of residential development that happens on on large lots in rural Williston And so what the applicants asking for what the staff is supporting is a three-bedroom house with with an accessory apartment understanding that Those accessory apartments are supported strongly in state law in the town plan and in other places they tend to Create very little additional impact But we do understand that they do have an impact on the number of square feet of septic system Leech field that's going to end up in either the street setback to Oak Hill Road or the 50-foot setback to This watershed protection buffer So I would say there's a spectrum there at some point if somebody wanted If somebody wanted to dwelling units the answer would be no That's that's more than you get if somebody if the board wanted to limit somebody to a one-bedroom house I would probably say you've taken it too far and somewhere in between multiple dwelling units Which an accessory dwelling unit is not understood as a separate dwelling unit in in our rules or the states Somewhere between that upper limit and that lower limit is a measure of the reasonableness of what they want against The ability of the board to grant a variance Yes well, so There are two 50-foot setbacks that this mound system is wedged between We're asking for a reduction from 50 to 13 feet on one side and 50 to 8 feet on the other side those reductions combined are about 80 feet 79 feet If we were If it were a three-bedroom home The mound system would be 30 feet less length approximately This is scaling On the fly here with some math scaling it should be So either way even with 30 feet less length in the mound we're still Wedged in this spot where it has to go We're still back asking you for relief from both setbacks in the wetland buffer and the road If it were now to be clear a three-bedroom Gallons per day That's about a hundred and forty feet If it were a four-bedroom, it's actually less it's four hundred and twenty Gallons per day. I'm sorry 490 and The length would be reduced by about 15 feet Slightly less however it would still be again in the in both setbacks so In the just so I understand the assumption on the accessory dwelling causing more gallons per day It's simply because it's another bathroom. It's a kitchen. It's a any of the other senator Yeah, that's right items that a household would be using as opposed to simply a bedroom I don't know if it's an option I know in other states they allow you to gray water off the washer dryer So it does not go through the mounds system We don't do that we don't do that California does that right other we don't do we don't do that So I mean I just want you to be aware to we we have state confines state permitting confines That we're working within you know in addition to town getting to that question I hope it was evident in Melinda's summary that we had to coordinate extensively with DC wetlands on this in fact a bit of history I don't know if I can bring this up this is the Basically the same Plan that you have just a bit bigger The original mount system that was approved out here This is where we're talking about the current Home and accessory dwelling and wastewater mound here the original mound that was approved out here the plan said no wetlands within 500 feet of either the mound or the The home here and that was misleading and obviously incorrect so the alternatives analysis that we had to walk through with the EC basically just just like You know essentially the process with the town pushed us into this spot So Where would be where would your alternative mound go with that fails Just out of curiosity Is there any place it can go or do you end up having to go and drive it? Aligned across the wetlands to get over to the other way. No, it would likely go somewhere in this vicinity And so we're going the same place to the fail Or in somewhere what I'm saying is somewhere along The in this area along Oak Hill road where the where the soils Did you play around with configurations of a home site well and septic up in that northern area we did and the other part of the story there is That when interstate 89 was constructed There were actually some good soils in that part of the property, but they were all stripped away I Question whether that originally Approved mound is would be adequate or we are off as did Based on the soils that we saw out there and in addition we had some The discussions that we have with DC wetlands really pushed us away from this area They're not comfortable with this wetland delineation to be totally honest If we were going to propose anything Out there, I think we would have been back out looking at that area a lot more carefully because the soils are very challenging with given the history of the disturbance and Yeah, so that that site is not only just confined space-wise, but and with the 150 foot setback from 89 but also has other environmental challenges with DC wetlands Davis they've signed off on this class to about they've issued a permit for in fact That's that's what I'm trying to explain. They sort of pushed us in this direction You know first of all we came to them and said, you know, we want to consider this original approved now you know would you Issue a permit for a force man to traverse the wetland and they said no that's more than acceptable impact Please look at the the area along O'Kill Road Where the dwelling is proposed and that's that's where we went and then we had to go back and forth and and Basically find an acceptable alternative for both the EC and wastewater And that was it Do the soils vary as you go down slope from the proposed house they do a bit But more than anything the slope varies just enough which is another factor in in the wastewater calculation, so Just discuss for a moment the how you arrived at the exact location Within this stretch of space along O'Kill Road of why the the septic field is being proposed where it is Well, you can kind of see on the on the plan. There are two areas where the wetland boundary provides a bit more width from O'Kill Road and In this and we first looked at the widest area Which is sort of in the middle of the the upland along the swath and the soils and the slopes we're not quite adequate there and And that's why we we ended up the farthest down here at the other wide area I mean it seems like it's important that you that the the width of this septic field is essentially parallel Yes, yeah, and and I you know, I look into the distance between 612 and 6 6 14 looks to be about exactly the same as between 6 20 and 6 22 which would allow you to put that Essentially exactly in the widest part of the area. That's not a wetland Yeah, the soils there were Not quite as good as as they were down. Are they adequate? No, I believe our test pits Suggested that they weren't adequate. Yeah, it's a this area is really densely overgrown with brushy We we did a lot of hand soil hand augering all up and down that swath and you know Without getting a machine in there really disturbing the whole area The use of the accessory unit is it for family member or for rental unit?  Yeah, okay Thank you Just to be clear we we do not regulate accessory apartments based on who rents them We only require that the owner be an occupant of either the primary or the accessory unit on the property other questions from the board curious about Jennifer and her husband's ownership and how they along the property. I'm not sure it's necessarily appropriate for me to know this but I I'm just curious was it marketed as a as a lot suitable for development and Perhaps they bought it under some kind of Pretends that One I'm Patrick her fiance her son purchased it because he loves nature and planning That's what he originally purchased it for and her son is going to live in the future wanted to live with her They grow a lot of flowers garden When keep natural I can feel yeah That was the purpose originally her son purchased it and And she's here representing him and they all still live in the same house in full chester And in the future they want to move to a place that has more greenery and more nature Because her whole yard has like 10,000 plants in So she's really into planning and gardens and stuff represented to you that this was a lot that was developable I'm not sure. You'd have to talk to me when you purchased it her son About 27 28 years old So I can illuminate a little bit of that So we've we've understood in our staff For a very long time that this prior system was permitted I don't know if you have the the year at which that earlier system was 2013 So for a significant amount of time that this property was on the market we saw it as Yep, there's a DC permitted Septic system on this site Most of the questions we honestly fielded from potential buyers were about subdivision to which we gave them the standard You take your ride at the DRB sort of answer and and you don't really have a design for that but we would understand that under under most Circumstances if the if the lot is not a total and complete swamp and that parcel has existed Unsubdivided since prior to 1990 the by-law says you get to put a house on it And so then when when this came to light that number one that system was not going to be An alternative and number two that both that system and this one had issues with setbacks that's when we entered into the conversation about variants and To provide one more piece of a little bit broader context We do not normally engage in a whole lot of regulation of the design of septic systems Because that is handled by the state of Vermont under a whole separate jurisdiction And the only reason we're here talking about this as a variance tonight is because within that rulemaking authority Under the law that took jurisdiction of wastewater systems Mostly away from towns unless they chose to take it back, which we have not under that rulemaking authority It said if a town has a place where no development at all is allowed They also preclude septic systems from those areas So we as a staff and in consultation with our attorney Interpreted these setbacks as areas in which no development is allowed The only development allowed in these setbacks is when you cross them with a utility essentially or a driveway or access So we're we're kind of quite a ways out on a limb Discussing a variance for a septic system in a setback already But our attorney assured us that that we're not so far the branch is going to break That that said it's it's a really really unique case If we were talking about whether or not this house could be built in the setbacks We would generally say you know, maybe you got to build a house That's a funny shape, but you got to stay in those setbacks and we had a case like that under some prior rules at Lake Eroquois in this case It's it's the necessary utilities to serve the house and they intrude on these things and Almost all of the jurisdiction over the way those utilities are designed and placed is actually not in the town's wheelhouse Is this what sort of like what happened in South Burlington across the muddy from me Like you know 40 acres and they only had like four one acre areas They can actually put a house on before that the whole thing got sold to the airport Yes, you refer to the Eau Claire property that was was protected and There there are large acreage parcels that are really highly constrained like what I'm saying is on this one is there is there going to potentially have to be markers all over the place that The Homeowner literally can't go outside of what is lawnmower No, but we wouldn't we would understand that building envelope to be pretty much pretty much the limit And that would be handled as part of our house permitting And I'll add to that. I mean yes, there will have to be per condition in the DC wetland permit and actually echoed in the conservation Commission Condition or recommendation that the area behind the house and the one in the wetland buffer be demarcated, you know to Indicate that the owner That could be constructed with at least one Yeah, and I'll just reiterate. I think the prior Wetland permit was sorry wastewater permit was misleading and that it said no wetlands within 500 feet of either the map the Approved now system these were on approved plans that were reviewed and approved by the state or the house And that wasn't even remotely close to true. So You're showing what looks like a waterline along Oak Hill. Is that just this the ditch or is there actually a water? There is a water line. Is there a reason you're not tapping into that? The town will not allow it so we we have we have water and sewer and In this area as it relates to some existing connections I'm trying to think where the water service is is that how we there's a pump station like I know there's I know there's there's wastewater because we serve to Thomas Chittenden Health Center and we serve metal ridge but only under We have a policy that we have a sewer service area that does not actually include those areas Metal Ridge was connected to wastewater because it's septic system, which is on the other side of interstate 89 under the dairy farm failed And so it was connected under an environmental mitigation provision within the sewer use ordinance In other words that the question I asked him You sure stepped up and said that if his septic field fails Potentially he could end up looking up to our sewer system, right? We would we would not necessarily allow that in this case We have had one case in Williston of a pre-existing lot not in the sewer service area That was created without proper investigations as to the creation of a septic system And it was it happened to be on Mountain View Road across the street from the sewer service area And the select board wrote a small carve-out and adopted it into the sewer use ordinance to allow that to allow essentially that one lot to connect but generally One house with a failed septic system that has a spot to replace it Even with the sewer line running right there will will not be able to connect to Townsour There is a process they could engage in if they wanted to try and it involves essentially a petition to the select board to connect under that environmental mitigation remediation Provision we we we serve Meadow Ridge because Meadow Ridge's septic system failed We serve Porter would similarly because Porter Woods wastewater system was not adequate over time No, there's no environmental problem there today. There's nothing to mitigate If they were there if they were there with a system and it failed over time And if the ordinance stayed the same maybe But the hard the hard question that would be asked in that process would be couldn't you just build another septic system? And and the answer would be yeah, they probably could That's you know We really tried to the the town of Williston has tried through its policies to be very very limiting of where it provides sewer because it Encourages generally a denser pattern of development than is seen as desirable outside of that sewer service area So so is it the same logic applies to the water as well? Is that why? Yeah, and I'm I'm a little bit unclear as to what that water line is serving I know what happens with wastewater out there And I yeah, I guess it would be the health center But this is showing a continuing past It's the well, that's the thing is that as I see it this goes up past the health center So I would have to get back to you David on where we're going with that. Yeah, but you've made the decision Why they're not allowed to not I know why on sewer Yeah, I would have to look if there's a parallel for water It would want more right there's if If I'd like to follow up on that they'll be if they were able to The water line would that change or improve the ability to locate a septic system on the site Any other questions from the board? No any questions from the audience like that One more time for the board. Okay. Thank you for coming. Let's see Okay, we're going to close DP 20-16 variants for Jennifer high Tran at 812 Okay, this is DP 17-01 point to black rock construction in Benjamin Avery Chairman chairman. I'm going to repeat myself as a resident of South Ridge Great Let's see. So I do want to make Comments before we staff dig into this and Staff feel free to correct me if I get this wrong Tonight is a night of a number of different items showing up on the on the agenda that is our unusual and or Things I haven't seen before This is one of them. This is another one of them Just so for the record, this is a fully permitted project Okay, this is phase two of a fully permitted project. So that we're not here to discuss the project We are here to discuss the growth management for phase two So I guess that is that's the statement I wanted to make so Matt if you want to follow up on that Please feel free sure not So this is a request for pre-application reviews for an already approved thirty nine residential development off Metcalf Drive and the Residential District known as North Ridge and this project has discretionary permit and final plan approval from the town So that means it has a approval for its design. It's infrastructure. It's it's platted lots It's it's had a plat filed And it's in a place where the first phase can have permits issued for new dwelling units on The sole purpose of this application is to meet the requirement that the project have Pre-application review during this calendar year so it can move forward to growth management review in the next calendar year And the purpose of that growth management review would be for this project to apply for The remainder of the dwelling unit equivalents it needs authorized from the town to build out the project So there are no changes to the design of the project the type of units Or any other aspect of the project there are no changes proposed to the approved final plans however Not all of the residential allocation for this project was granted the first time around because there was a limited supply in That case the way to get the remainder of your allocation as an applicant is to go through growth management again And the way our by-law says you get to go to growth management is if you file pre-app in the previous calendar year Which is what the applicant has done. So just correct me if I'm wrong. This is a effectively a bureaucratic exercise Yes We don't often like to admit that But notice a little bit of spade you admitted it reluctantly But what you know what Realistically what pre-application review does give the board the opportunity to do and the staff and the applicant the opportunity to do is to Understand if there have been as there were this year any changes to the growth management scoring criteria Open up the ability to have that conversation between now and the hearing in March And the by-law simply doesn't offer any other way to go to growth management in March than to have had a pre-application Reviewed in the prior calendar year So as I said it was first reviewed as a pre-application in 2016 residential growth management allocation for 21 dwelling unit equivalents at the March 28 2017 growth management hearing and the project received discretionary permit approval on March 13th of 2018 And approved final plans on June 12th of 2018 again The applicant is requesting pre-application review to allow them to move forward with a residential growth management Allocation request in March of 2020 for the remaining 18 units in the project And the one thing I'll call out is if it's a 39 unit project on a lot with no existing home It may only need 17 units because we would understand there to be one unit by right on that Undeveloped lot we will clarify that as part of the processing of the growth management application We did we did circulate this for review with police fire and public works. We did not receive comments from police We had some comments from public works and fire The one that was interesting was the fire department noted that the road proposed as Asher Lane Which has been approved with that name on the plaid anyway Sounds an awful lot like Aster Lane, which is an existing road in town and advised perhaps a different name So that they would sound phonetically different should someone call for emergency service I have two recommendations there for your consideration Authorizing the applicants to move forward the growth management review in March of 2020 Thank you Housekeeping and if you would state your name and your address for the record, please Benjamin Avery with Black Rock Construction in South Burlington, Vermont. Thank you Only update on that is there was actually Some back and forth right before we recorded the plat and the names have been amended to be Cadence Zoe and Chloe respectively, so Your kids No, only one of them is my job But So the working documents we submitted for the board's review were not updated with those names But the plat that has been recorded are with the names under the guidance of public works Questions from the board Questions from the audience you want to add one more time for the board We're going to close DP 17-1.2 Northridge subdivision phase 2 at 819 No, I have my agenda I lost my paper clip All right Okay, next up on the agenda is DP 13-4.2 Vermont agency transportation It's got I'm gonna recuse you're gonna recuse yourself as well. Okay, and the reason for the recusal my firm is involved in the project Here so we're gonna open up we are going to open up DP 13-04.2 at 820 I Have a comment on this on this one too number number three And this is almost unheard of that that We have three of these in a row that are that are different For the for the audience and for the board, but mainly but mainly for the audience This is a Fully permitted project with permits in existence on a One-year extension from the original permits when they were issued So we're not hard and we're not assuming that nothing has changed from the permitted project We're not here to talk about The park and ride. We're here to talk about the access That brings up another problem is that this board does not have any jurisdiction over the access The access is controlled by it because the access is on a state route DOT or AOT controls the access permit I'll get that I get that right Yeah, I'll fill in around the filling around the edges, please or detail in our discussion, but So This is an application for a discretionary permit to amend a previously approved proposal to build a park and ride Facility with access outdoor lighting and stormwater treating other appurtenances 3294 st. George Road in the Gateway Zoning District South The scope of this amendment is to extend the access drive on to the parcel to the south of the subject property To further separate it from the exit 12 interchange No changes to the layout design or other elements of the park and ride lot are proposed So At the time of the original approval of this the parcel where the access is now proposed was owned by a private party was Not under the control of the state of Vermont that has changed and as the board may recall from a prior meeting That parcel is now proposed for the development of a state police barracks that will share its access to route to a with the park and ride Facility and I should just note that's being reviewed under a separate action by the board as well Not not part of tonight's review So this project went through pre application review in front of the DRB on March 26th of 2013 it received discretionary permit approval on August 12th 2014 That proposal was amended on March 22nd 2016 under an approval by the DRB and final plans were approved on October 13th of 2016 an Administrative permit to construct the facility under that design was signed by the zoning administrator on October 10th of 2017 Williston's by-law Provides that those permits last two years and may be extended on request for a third year an extension was requested and the zoning administrator Which is me? Granted a one-year extension to the administrative permit and that will expire on October 10th 2020 so that that active permit that's good until October of next year is For the old design with the old access that's entirely contained on the same parcel as the park and ride And what's before the board tonight is a proposal to go back and amend that discretionary permit approval to move the access further up the hill further south on route to a Utilizing the adjacent parcel that is now also Under the control of the state of Vermont So this is a change to the design of the well, let me back up. So the first thing is scope of review. So There's a principle in our by-law that says the scope of the DRB's review when an amendment is proposed will be limited to the scope of the changes so things like The lighting in the park and ride the arrangement of the parking spaces the landscaping the stormwater the fact that there's a park and ride proposed here All of those things are not by our by-law allowed to be modified by any approval of the DRB at this time You only you only get to regulate what's new and what's different from the old proposal So six point ten point three point one in our by-law Limited scope the scope of the hearing and DRB action will be limited to determining whether the proposed amendment complies or fails to comply with the bylaw so What's changing and how is it addressed in our by-law? What's changing is the design of the access to the site? We have a chapter on access. It's chapter 13 of the by-law And the by-law notes that when we're dealing with access to a state highway as Scott alluded to You consult with v-trans Which is also the applicant agency in this case that wants to build the park and ride and change the access to it So who must provide turning lanes medians and other access management improvements? Applicants must provide acceleration deceleration and turning lanes medians and all other improvements including signs signals and lighting That are required to provide safe access to their development the need for these improvements Maybe established by the town plan quarter plans or traffic studies prepared by the town the regional planning agency Or the Vermont agency of transportation or by a traffic study required by chapter 13 section 13.8 so Essentially what this really directs the town to do is go consult with the agency that manages the road if it's a town road We talk to the public works director if it's a state road We have a process related to the access permit and we go talk to them So in this case, it's a little bit of a closed system in that the applicant is proposing to add an access in a new location To a road that is under their control under the standards that they administer So our by well, I guess what I'm really saying is our by-law says there should be safe adequate Reasonable access to new development and that when you're looking to figure out whether those things are through You can have engineering studies you can consult with the agencies that manage the roads and follow Essentially their lead and here we are so That's that's a little bit of the context for this review We do still take this through our full public hearing process because that's how you amend a discretionary permit in Williston And you do need a discretionary permit from Williston To build this facility So we we noticed this hearing we did solicit and receive some public comment We received letters from Larry Reed Nicholas Martin and Sarah Ward those were attached to your staff report Some of those folks are in the audience tonight This amendment was not reviewed by the Conservation Commission or Historic and Architectural Advisory Committee Prior prior plans with the Park and Ride were reviewed by Conservation Commission and those conditions continue to stand from that prior approval We did circulate plans to police fire and public works We received no comments from police and fire department comments only reserving the right to make further comment at a later stage Their department plan review Would be something we coordinate with them on it at a minimum through review of final plans, so they would have a chance to comment there We did also receive comments from public works And I wanted to note one specific comment which was related to the standard to which they they wish to hold the Dimensions of that access road involving You know a particular standard within the public work specifications They've commented on some other things about the utilities We did receive today a response to all of the public works comments From the agency which we've handed out to you tonight in which you're welcome to discuss with the applicant or seek any Clarification from us that you need on that ongoing dialogue And that's where I'll stop for now Gentlemen names and addresses for the record, please As a remainered with stand tech consulting in south Burlington and scubberbank with v. Trans But ultimately a design consultant with VHB in south Burlington, Vermont as well All right, would you walk us through the changes to the access that you are proposing any other any other changes that might be in there as well existing permitted access So There's a bunch of people who probably would love to see this maybe we could reorient may reorient the board over there Scott Is that okay? No, I work Maybe can you can do can you go back a little further and then kind of tip it this way Larry can you see that The new state of Vermont parcel is acquired Let's clarify one thing too. You know Matt had discussed This is the state regulating itself But in you know, we still have to go through the same permit process through the state that any project does so Although this is a state project. We do need a section 1111 state highway access permit One of the conditions of that access permit was that when this parcel gets developed Access So so that's why this is being done in the state bought this and started to plan on development here That was a condition of that access permit. So that's So the existing the additional impervious area created is going to be treated in the Expanded by our attention area. It's an existing by our attention area I'm sorry the existing permitted by our attention area that we're just making larger not amendment By the state Well any of that will any of that impervious surface water being treated on your site Also be coming from the state police site. There's that again that totally separate That's totally separate. You have curbs and then drop inlets So we catch all our roads all the frontage road and it goes into that bio retention Which then ultimately goes to the dry pond which then goes into the muddy brook watershed So as Israel said that was always there because we were treating the access road before it's just now The access road is obviously longer. So it had to get bigger But we do have we sent we have our permit for that Yes, that's correct. So sure so if you're coming from task corners you go under the interstate bridges and currently right now When we build this there's a slip lane across from here. So you turn and then you would go this way I'm assuming the state police would do as well. I don't know So in theory, yes, you could do this, but most people will do this There's a right turn slip lane right turn Slip lane is turning lane a turning lane. Sorry. Thank you And then if you're coming down the hill or from St. George You will go into the left turn lane and then turn left into the facility and then go down But if for everyone leaving they all have to come up and then they need to turn left or right So if you are if you are coming if you are driving north coming down the hill you turn into your first access not the second one So it's okay. Is it possible to turn left coming down the hill? But because of that slip lane, right? It's oriented right. It's oriented such that it's a curve So you literally can't get there. I mean yes in the civic I drive. I'll try it The size of that culvert it's gonna be under that Oh the one we're replacing this Yeah, what's the size of that? It's gonna be a 49 inch pipe wide by 33 inch high Yeah, the reason I asked that is because I'll tell you I have seen water coming down Two-way excitingly In this pipe actually the pipe that crosses to a is also being replaced as part of this problem As well yeah, and that was based when we originally permitted this we talked to mr. Martin David Martin not the other Martin And he noted that right now that his driveway has been wiped out So what we're doing is we're putting a new head wall on that So it actually comes around like this to catch the water and forces it through that pipe Because I believe right now the pipe is open, but there is rip wrap that actually got pushed in there by the force of the water so yeah, so in Basically what we're doing to to improve the or to prevent his driveway from being washed out again We're gonna put in a bigger pipe. So it's wider. You know, it's better to be wider than taller Is it widening anywhere along? St. George Road in order to accommodate the additional traffic turning Yeah, so that turn lane was added on St. George Road So that's being under the previous permit this left turn lane was down here when we moved the access The widening of the road I was not on the board at the time when it was originally approved So the widening of the road was further This down the hill used to do this and so the turn Imagine this turn lane starting here and so we have rights from all these property owners ending at David Martin To put in a right turn lane or excuse me a left turn lane Which we're not doing but because we have we paid the money and everything we're cutting their trees and replacing their drive culverts Not winding it all down there don't don't need those rights, but won't probably I mean I don't even know how we give them up What about What's good as stop sign is going to be there there's not going to be a Blinking light or a signal or anything like that Stop sign coming off at the sex of road to get on to a there'll be no stop signs on Lane going on to And just a stop sign For people leaving the access road no, so this is guys So this is this is a good time as a number of people here were interested in asking questions in the audience and I Think that's great, and we should we want to do that if you'd like to do that just please for your record If you would state your name your name and your address and I do think that at this point you Feel free to feel free to ask the applicant the state Any questions that you have? Larry Name and address Value So there's a few things I don't have a problem with the park and ride If the outfit was down at the bottom of the hill because I wouldn't bother anybody up here by putting it here and Combination with state police there having maybe 200 plus cars Every day coming out this one spot and not down there. It's going to create real problem here that Don't care how many how many engineers have looked at it. It's going to be a problem. That's not there now There's going to be a lot of light pollution from headlights imagine nine months out of the year here we're in the dark in the afternoon and So morning and night we're going to have 200 cars finding headlights across my property Martin's property and Doug Williams property and the traffic already is Backed up from the bottom of the hill to Walker Hill Road at the end of the day during commuter time And in the morning it backs up beyond my driveway So I feel that this is a very big intrusion into a residential name zone neighborhood and Many of us are retired and lived here for 30 40 50 years invested all their lives in our property It's going to take away our Privacy and And it has nothing but negative impacts on us. It doesn't have any benefit for us at all and When you talk about property value Nobody wants to talk about property value Everybody just looks at you and stares at you. How do you mitigate property value? Anybody know how you mitigate property value and talk to the listeners Because that's that that's the people you have to go and say that my property value has gone down They're the ones you're gonna have to talk to to get it dropped at the airport with the F-35 noise abatement program Which is still in effect.  If this really is a good idea or you know, what's the good of Heather and everybody in the neighborhood pissed off? We were here first and I had We all four of us had interviews with Scott and Tina and In May To discuss what was going on what was going to happen with our property we walked around my property And it's about here. We're going to have lights lights and lights and this is this this is that And then when you talk about water This gentleman mr. Christensen talking about water coming down the hill Halloween Eve my driveway washed out for the 50th time so I Caught the trans down on Hurricane Lane And I said we got some wash out. Yeah, they said we're gonna do the whole road up to the O'Crew We wrote gonna fix the shoulder where I washed out. I said my apron is washed out a little bit too Well, that's your responsibility He said well, I'll see what I can do So if they came and they actually dumped a little crushed gravel Pavement I should say out there at the end and I thought well, that's good. We did that Later that afternoon. I was trying to roll back down that stuff that my lawn tractor went through the ground There's a sinkhole next to my culver So I went back down and got the supervisor the crew and I said I got a sinkhole there. Well, that's your responsibility So he came up and he took a look at it. He said yeah, that's your responsibility But I said I thought you guys were fixing everything on the side of road here He says I put dirt down for him. I said, thank you for my dirt So in your plan as we talked about with the culvert in front of my house You want to move the culvert back three or four feet? So what happens to that utility pole that's about 12 inches of diameter It's going to be at the end of the culvert So they'll relocate utilities as necessary if they're in the way of the stretch that we plan on So now you have a line of utility poles you're going to have these up here Well, I don't believe that the I'll have to look at it closer again But I don't believe that that utility poles in conflict with the post culvert Yeah And one of the reasons that we're pushing that back three feet is as you've described I mean it washes out right because the ditches don't have the capacity So the reason you're having impacts are that you'll have impacts as part of this project is is to increase those ditch sizes And the culvert sizes in order to in order to allow that flow that's interesting because that's a 30-inch culvert there right now Your plan is called for an 18-inch culvert All right. Well, I'll look at that again. That's not gonna work. Yeah, we can increase the size buddy, right? The thing with your 30-inch culvert though is it's it's 90% filled with sediment So the capacity is that of a you know, six and that's because when it was dropped in it was dropped in in a hurry In the back this the north end of the culvert is sitting below the ground level So that's that's just another problem But what I'm getting to here is that when you folks came around you said that That negotiators now we're going to be the next step the negotiator. You had a really great negotiator It's going to come around and try to you know make us feel good and do some stuff for us. It's never happened All right, can you answer that? Name and address please 2016 West O'Rourke in my field name Teenable I spoke with a negotiator today and he is Currently coming up with values for all our easements and rights that we need for you and he intends to Send out and talk to you guys in the next couple weeks Hey, well, that's that's interesting because like I said, nobody has ever reached out to me at all or any of the rest of it And in order to do some of the stuff you want to do you better get an easement to take the front of his lawn off there and also Yoshi who is here to take part of his property as well you need some some easements there and and You're you're not actually taking my property, but you're taking because of the headlights and such and this culvert deal You know creating a big problem for me. So I've got some problems that need to be done And so that's that's how I feel about it all and I've been Too late now, but the Ramsey property should never been uh rezoned to The gz ds that I think it was every culture before Because nobody ever took into consideration these residences here when they rezoned that I think that's about it And if some I hope you all read my emotional letters I tend to ramble and repeat myself, but if you can imagine 50 years I am very passionate about my property and I love my privacy And this is right in my face So the negotiators I understand that the negotiators have not visited any of them In mr. Reed's case does Is there any any mitigation or any any allowance made for the the fact that Traffic lights will be the traffic lights headlights will be pointing right at his house coming out I really had to it's not just me but the martins as well. Okay, and and mr. Williams as well. So what what Assume that the assume that that access is is there in position there what Nobody's going to want nobody's going to want headlights pointed at their house 24 hours a day Okay, is that handled how is that handled by the state is that part of the negotiating process Yeah So for instance the berm that was something that mr. Williams brought up to us when we were talking with him So that's why that's shown on the plan is is that So that berm that is a berm that is mr. Williams berm facing that's facing south, correct his property Mr. Williams, mr. Williams, you're here. You're here. Okay. All right You can absolutely I mean when he's with the negotiator, that's your time to to ask for things Let's say there is something negotiated with one of the property owners doesn't it need to be part of the Amendment How does it get incorporated into the condition? So if you if you see something or hear about something that you believe is necessary For this project to be compliant with our bylaw Like a screening berm provided off-site Um or cross the road then you would want to make that a condition of approval um, so I'd have to do a little digging in the bylaw to find you a citation um related to This isn't quite like a landscape buffer where I can just say oh, it's a type 2 buffer of this many feet wide When this is happening this is more going to be in our chapters related to nuisance and off-site impacts and how to mitigate them And so you you could as a board You know, especially if you see some agreement or or some ideas come out tonight you could say Applicant, you know final plans shall show What the applicant has selected for mitigation related to these off-site impacts, but you you'll need to find Some something in the zoning bylaw that you believe that's necessary for the project to comply I'm relating to that Scott here in your conditions of approval Number five says the applicant shall enter into a development agreement of the town baritone is required public or private improvements We could read that probably any way you want It sounds to me like that Anything that might be negotiated whether and it also talks about easement agreements offers warranty deeds anything all of that is All required to be in the final plans at the town level That's for the town Yeah Yeah, I understood Just a quick second Why the change so even if I understand that There's a proposal for the police barracks and But it's really a fired line store but what Why but what difference does that make to safety and queuing so um when traffic queues It queues up from here right trying to get on the interstate And so imagine if you were trying to get out here and the traffic queues up the traffic queuing length which I guess We did do a traffic study so as you recall part of the bgs proposal was that There's discussion about the traffic study staff mentioned that they had done one previously We recognized that it didn't include vsp So we have performed that study and it you know to see if there's a need for a signal here And it doesn't warrant a signal But when we did that we also looked at queue lengths PMP because my understanding is the worst but the idea is yes It does queue up here, but then it clears rather quickly So it's easier to get out a under route to here than it is to here It's also easier because you have better line of sight up and down the hill because it's on what we call a crest This is on a steep tangent And also, I mean the slopes here it's very steep here. It's not as steep here And so the other thing is if that were to go in there and then the other site were developed you would not have Two access points along that same Such a row you still have this the police barracks Utilize you could do the reverse right the police barracks could utilize to go down to the other site. I suppose But then it would put that we get into the queue queue actually says we have to build this when this is developed Exactly and so that's that was a question. I had which was hang on If for whatever reason the state police barracks hits a snag they find a rare plant who knows what Is this going to get built regardless or are you going to wait and come back to the original? No, it's going to get built. I mean you will you will develop this now Yes The intent is that in theory our schedule is ahead of the state police But as you know, do we have right away negotiations which they take what they take? So they could be ahead of us, but yes, the intent is that we're going to To construct that ahead of them and then they would come in and construct their facility afterwards But it's I mean regardless of whether it's the state police or somebody else The point is that from the agency's point of view No, this is a bad location and this was not a great location. This is the best or preferred I don't know the best is not the right term, but the preferred location That is that is really as far south because of the private dwelling right sitting right there That's as far south as it can go anywhere far away from exit 12 interchanges possible, which Takes us out of that queuing. It takes us out of the the traffic Larry did you want to show the board something? This is the markets. This is real-time traffic back up the hill At four point at four Every day We cannot get out of our driveway without sitting there for five minutes So you add 200 plus cars to that Well, you're not adding 200 cars, I guess so well 140 in the park and ride and maybe 70 employees at the state police from whatever you're going to have So everybody we address the board with our comments. Okay, so let's not have a let's not let this Descend into a rancorous debate. Okay, if you have a comment if you have a comment Please address the board. So the answer to the question on traffic I mean rick brine is here from stand-tech and he did do the traffic study. So I guess he can speak To all of that better definitely better than I can I am not a traffic engineer rick brine was stand-tech consulting and You know the question in terms of added traffic This we're in the process of finalizing a third traffic study We did a traffic study Many years back when the ramsey parcel was being subdivided and we Considered 200 hotel rooms in that property the park and ride lot in a gas station convenience store And we projected traffic up and down to a associate with that development brought it before you brought it before So rick hold that hold that thought for one second just so the board knows there is a privately owned parcel between the state police and the Park and ride that at some point in time could be developed Okay, it isn't even in this traffic count. It is not in this traffic count Or it is not in it is not in this proposal. It may be in your traffic there today But it is in the study that you all kind of you who are there at the time got a chance to right yet years ago as As did v-trans I just wanted everybody on the board to understand that that's that that is there Go ahead brick and that was sort of at a broad master planning level Two years later v-trans came in with this specific plan for the park and ride that needed to go through a site plan approval process basically You know where the catch basins were the trees how the parking stalls laid out So there's very detailed review and at that time we did a new study That just looked at traffic associated park and ride And dissipated that would be built before the stuff behind the hotel and all that come much later So there's a separate study that you have and had been reviewed and permitted For just the park and ride facility And the third effort that's underway is to say, okay, we we now know that something's happening At the bgs site In our prior study referred to that as a solomon parcel. I don't know if that's the name It's being used but So just south the the re-MC process as we started out. We have the solomon parcel We now have a building program for that We helped bgs at the time Figure out what could fit on the site And how much traffic it would generate That was really an internal document But we brought those figures forward as well from a traffic perspective to say, okay layer The park and ride traffic onto the roadway layer the re-MC development the hotel and the gas station and now add this third layer of the bgs development So our forecast I'll give you the number so you get a sense of the impact And basically where we are now is Very nominal effect of what has not yet been permitted From a traffic perspective all the things you know, can you can you say that again in layman's terms? Sure You you've looked at and said yes to The park and ride proposal which Per the prior studies will add about a hundred trips to the roadway system at peak times when you that Park and ride are open you sat out seven thirty eight thirty the morning You'd count roughly a hundred vehicles coming in a route If the hotel the gas station all gets built You would see roughly 200 more vehicles in that one hour So what's already been proved is about 300 vehicles per hour 300 to 350 it varies different from the a.m. To the afternoon rush hour, but that's the order of magnitude The last counts show the peak from 7 30 to 8 30 a.m 4 30 to 5 30 p.m The program for the state police barracks and there's a salt shed for v trans as a safety building That's about 40 trips in the peak hour So you've got 300 that's been said yes to And bgs adds about 40 to that so it's a it's a 10 percent change When you look at those 40 trips spilling out onto the road going down through the interchange Which has some operational issues that we see and causes the queuing Um, it adds less than 1 percent down at the interchange. So it's a fairly normal impact on what's already been approved and into I'm throwing out numbers Just to put that in context The hurricane lane You see that every day you see cars coming and going getting in and out without a signal and On hurricane lane in the morning rush hour 350 vehicles per hour So it's even more than what we're envisioning Just from the ramsey parcel And that number is about 280 in the afternoon peak hour So yeah, just these numbers have some context. That's what's going on today that you can see at hurricane lane So Again, those are the the impacts that we look at you're at about 300 to 350 That's what happened with everything built out And another 40 gets added with the bgs piece Um, I'm really not changing things down at the interchange There's some longer term plans that and again, I guess there's been a scoping study done a couple years back That this board looked at Talked about some of the things that can happen at the interchange short term and long term to help make things work a little better there Scott mentioned, you know, one of the questions from the start has been there doesn't need to be a light at this driveway When we looked at everything else, no, we weren't to that level of volume yet We add in the bgs. We're we're still not there Bring this a little closer It probably makes sense when we construct the driveway we'll put some conduit under the road So that if you were to come back 10 years later Because you decided you didn't want a signal or the Say george wrote it busy enough that you now justify the signal You wouldn't have to tear up the pavement to to put that in but Not a need for it based on what we see being built out on the site May I ask what the threshold is for our signal intersection? It's it's fairly complicated You you have to look at the volume of traffic that's on on the main street the volume of traffic that's coming out of the side street And and based on our forecast of what's coming out of that driveway We're about three four hundred vehicles short on st. George road And that's after we've assumed Three or four hundred at peak that peak hour, right? Yeah, there's there's 1100 1100 vehicles out there now In the afternoon if you were to stand at that driveway and count what's going by Which we do that's what we do for a living It's helping among traffic engineers. So what does that mean? So it's like count cars We were out there counting cars There's about a thousand vehicles go past that driveway seven thirty eight thirty a.m That number is about a late eleven hundred and four thirty or five thirty p.m If that number to get to fourteen hundred, which is substantial growth We may want to think about putting in a traffic light, but We're not there 1100 thousand in the morning 1100 in the afternoon 1100 p.m And you're saying we're going to add About three to four hundred No, no, well for the for the The development. Yes, the most development will add three to four hundred to that number But it's on the driveways. That's coming in and out of the site. I'm talking about what's going past the site So good Okay, again, you're getting into this Technicalities of the warrant. I got to look at what's what's in front of me That's keeping me from making a left turn out of the driveway And that that number of the cars that's going when I'm waiting to make a left turn out I'm waiting on 1100 cars right now If that number were to go to 1400 Then I would be thinking about a signal. Well, South Burlington punches van sickling over the doors if your number is going to be reached Just to let you know Could could happen which is again why we're saying put condo would end you prepared for the future What we backed into this is like I said We put the we loaded the parking ride into the system. We loaded the hotel the gas station The bgs program and we're still 300 cars short Outline on the top of that V-trance tracks volumes on all its roads statewide And they tell us and they look at economic development households Jobs to be created so they envision that in the next five years traffic's going to grow another 3% So even that's into our analysis and again, we're still coming on short And when you say you have conduit under You have conduit under there's that part of The proposal that is to be permitted is we would recommend that that could win now Wait, yeah when this all gets dug up and keep in mind conduits You know a little pbc pipe that goes under the road just so you can thread some wires through it without having to dig up the road Okay, is there any other infrastructure that is needed in order to put a signal? light there as part of the design Of course that could be approved In terms of what the pavement that were we have out there There's this plenty of pavement. So we're not widening the road to put in a signal. It's just the signals themselves You'd have to put a foundation in the ground to hold the pole And then the mast arms get put on the pole. So Again, the only thing that would force you to tear up the road Would be to get the wires across and even that can be done with tunneling tunneling, but If we're going to have some widening done, that's the best time to put the conduit in Excuse me, Madam Stubb-Williams, I'm the property of the roads going on across my lawn You said that there's going to be a hundred employees going into police station And you said that's only 40 trips a day No, no, no, that's a lot of people calling in saying Correct. Uh, no, you said you said 40 in one hour Okay, so If if everyone showed up to work at the same time and everyone drove and no one was sick We're actually told there's going to be maybe 70 employees. So we're We actually Model 95 employees were being conservative, but last meeting I went to they were saying a hundred Okay, I was being told 70, but I've used 95 so You're in the ballpark Yeah, if everyone were driving no one were sick and they all showed up at the same time You'd expect 70 cars to come into the site all at once We go out as I should count cars So we go to you know an office building where we know there's so many employees And we sit there and we count the cars in an hour and we don't see it one for one People are spread out over several hours people are sick people come in late People have to drop kids at daycare. So it's not as simple as saying 70 employees means 70 cars come in an hour We're saying 40 an hour That translates to several hundred over the course of the day When we're studying traffic and operations and And again the comments about you know the queue well people out there now. There's no queue We don't focus on 10 o'clock at night. We focus on 7 38 30 4 30 5 30 That's what I'm talking about what's happening in an hour So 40 in an hour at least it's more than that today for sure So another concern I have anyway if this was to all happen We somewhere I read that all the construction would be taking place at night Who's going to sleep listening to construction going on all night? Hot summer night your windows are open and you got construction going on all night Lights machinery Who's going to sleep? That's not fair to So the reason we have to do it at night is because of the traffic volumes While I agree it will be annoying it shouldn't be It's also about decibel levels how loud things are we can do things to mitigate it We can have the bee pig on the trucks. They have a different sound that helps We can also yeah, I mean there's a lot of things we can do to mitigate it Construction it's only going to be the widening part only the work on route 2a will be done at night The rest of the work. Yeah, the rest of the work will be daytime You have anticipated duration for that construction period Just for route 2a the night work Don't but I mean it's we're box cutting and widening rate. Yeah so I mean it all comes down to production rate Potentially a month, but they'll be moving. I don't know. That seems slow to me It'll be faster than that I don't know you're talking about the crescent or Is that by james brown drive? Oh by james brown drive. Yeah, we'll be faster than that If it's I don't know because not my project, but Yeah, I mean we can do things to Make them move faster. They being the contractor certainly and we can prescribe things We do have guidelines and special provisions for for working at night in urban areas and residential areas I mean it is unfortunate, but I don't know there's not much I can do about it because I either clog up the entire roadway Or I work at night So I mean the volume of traffic is such that It's we have to do some night work But we can certainly try to mitigate that to the minimum I mean the reality is that we're putting in three lanes where there used to be two So once we have that widening we could probably do some shifting of traffic and do some daytime work during off-peak Yeah, we can do our best to mitigate that The three lanes all the way down with that to mitigate some of the impact of the traffic because it would Spread it into three lanes I guess I'm I'm looking at you. Yeah, we we I'm right now have two lanes of queuing at the light at the south bottom ramp. So um, yeah, if you were hard to extend that further up the hill you'd have The same number of cars in a queue to these be spread out over two lanes I I'm not sure that's the best strategy given the the Potential impacts to a butters along the roadway and the ditch and the drainage and all that we've talked about I really think Widening up the hill is is inappropriate That I'm not suggest you don't widen up the hill What I'm saying is have you considered just keeping it three lanes All the way Through past the highway To mitigate the queuing All the way up into the residential area of the fort The queuing the queuing issue is a result of what's going on at the interchange So it's a it's a matter of getting cars More cars through the interchange more quickly And Wouldn't get it quicker. Well, you you can only really fit two under E-9 right now So It couldn't do a third lane under the bridge You could perhaps widen to do a third lane to slip onto the ramp to go southbound in 89 The number of cars making that right turn is such that if you added it you would shorten the queue By maybe two cars Ricky is there it I'm not sure it's your main or not, but is there something maybe it's for scott too. Is there a project to Improve that intersection in the bum it's been in the work something with circle alternatives I know we're looking at the sidewalk is cutting up malls. I don't know what Kenny on malls project is doing Yeah, I don't know the scoping was gonna go ahead The scoping study talks about the shared use path going going through there So you get pedestrians out of the road away, which is Primarily a safety improvement, but it does help people are trying to get up the hurricane lane at work hotel on our Reliant on transit and it's also wants to get two lanes coming southbound Toward the interchange And that that would in fact help get more cars through that light And let the whole system work a little better So that's the other part of the short term fix as well as just you know Keeping tabs on the signal timing make sure that it's being responsive to the demands that make shift over time Just to Kind of answered my question a little bit, but Yeah, I dedicated my hand laying down at the bottom to get southbound onto the interstate to leave I disagree by two cars about many many cars That want to turn up right Not two cars many We live there And uh, just one last thing for I forget or don't have a chance to say it's anybody in this room That would like to have this in their front yard. I want to see a show of hands Nobody would like it. Would you are the markets here? That they talked to you about Replacing all those cedars for you or not? No, not about the cedars My concern is when I inherited the trees That I want the trees gone Those big trees in front of my property Because when I put in the cedars I came to the town and I said how far from the road can I put my cedars on? You know and they said 49 feet. It's five rod road Okay, so I did and somehow magically I gained property And the trees are on my they're my deal now And we'll we'll know what I'm asking the question is You're concerned that the cedars are going to be cut down, right? No. Oh, okay. I'm gonna put that down Different martin Oh, that's what you're talking about. You're talking about Nicholas Martin There's Martin on both sides. I have no idea. I read it or not But um, so he has cedars. I'm gonna give you guys jerseys I know Okay, so the martins that have the the trees that you come tonight You have his letter. I know I was right. Yeah, he was supposed to be here. We've I've talked to many I was just asking I was going to ask him if the mitigators are where they are Had talked to him about replacing those He didn't talk to him about it, but I'm not sure if it was satisfactory So when we met with him we explained to him that the ideas there's things called costicure So the idea is we are cutting his cedars and I can't grow a 10-foot cedar So we told him that, you know, if you wanted to fence that would be an option as well Although there are drb requirements for fencing along there But it's you know, it's hard to put cedars back So We can but we can only do like two. I mean, we just can't get what he has back in this time So we could put an offense for him, but the intent would be that either we I mean ideally in a perfect world The state would give the property owner the money they would hire out a contractor And they would install it separate from our project, but we can also do it as well Um Yeah, I mean there's that's the thing is that until we go we the engineers can talk about things But we don't handle the money. We can't promise anything. That's where the negotiations come in Was there ever a discussion of coming out right on to the Oh onto the exit itself limited access FHWA probably wouldn't let us right they absolutely wouldn't let us We would it's a limited exit. That's not It's not it's a federal road so the state can't do it. Is that what you said? It's a limited access road. So there's only certain things you can do and that's not wonderful Yeah, might be might be trying to put the exit off the interstate to the mall and that got shut down Which way do we really cut down traffic at the deadly intersection there at To endorse it another point. What is this manual air release slash chlorine injection point? Oh, that was just a response to dpw's question on One of the symbols that was in the road way right here And what it is is when they construct a water line They need to be able to bleed the air off at the high point in the line Which will be on route to to a and they also need to be able to inject chlorine to temporary flush In or disinfect the line that's that is controlled, right? What's that that injection point is controlled? Yes.  No, no, no No, I'm talking about is that is controlled that joe blow can't walk up and decide to inject Something else into the water line. Oh, no. Yeah. Yeah, they're they're they're underground. You're there They're not accessible Can you can you describe the berm that you're proposing to protect the adjacent property from the headlights? Yeah, so just be simple earth berm Roughly three to four feet tall three on one mowable slopes and then it'll be planted with Six to seven foot tall norway spruce trees And that three to four feet will be adequate to shield the headlights from the buses that are coming in and out of there and the trucks and the Snow plow vehicles that have the headlights that shine right in your rear view mirror when they're behind you Yeah, and that's what the the additional plantings are for we didn't want to put, you know, a big 15 foot tall earth berm there because it would extend well onto his property and it would just look unsightly And you discuss this berm with the BGS with the landowner Actually, so we're talking about he's talking about the landowner landowner next to the property. Oh, mr. Williams. Yes. I don't know I don't know them and so Overshielding from yes. Yes. That was it was his request that we understand I just want to make sure that he understands how big that berm is and that it's it's adequate for it meets his his desires Larry I might make a suggestion This might be helpful for everybody on the board If you're not really familiar really familiar with this It might be good to have a field trip and come up and take a look and walk And take a real good And be familiar really for what is proposed here I live just past there. So I drive it every day a few times a day We all live in williston and have there are a number of busy intersections that we all wrestle with frequently. So I guess the other question I would have here has to do with the landscaping along this access road And there were discussions just two weeks ago. Yeah about the property there and We couldn't really discuss the landscaping because it was Along this road. So I want to make sure that we're able to as we're discussing the the next stage of the state barracks If we wanted to add additional landscaping that happened to be in this project's Area, how would how might we do that? So you're asking who's responsible for the land between The two roads the two roads. Yes I think that I think bgs was kicking it to you guys. They were and yet. So now we're going to be wanting to Perhaps ask for some stuff there that's going to be screening a different project Yeah, so one thing we've done since the plan set that you have in front of you is we have added street trees per drb requirements one of the drb Points is that through currently forested areas, we can get a waiver for street trees So we would like to have a waiver in these areas where the vegetation is dense You know these These areas we've added trees here where the vegetation is not so dense at the 40 foot spacing required by the by the zoning bylaw You know that that vegetation in there is scrub. I mean it's Yeah, we can cut it. It just when you look at google earth The ramsey property line. Well, I guess where the future potential Sulfshed is that where it seems to change but obviously on this map. It doesn't look I know why they're deciduous But um, yeah, and this is fall.  We'll do whatever and then I think to your point though You're talking about between the drive and the roadway They're supposed to be a type 1 or type 4 which is like basically a cluster trees every 100 feet Similar to what we did further down north on the park and ride and We're not going to cut anything in there. I mean, we're not touching it except for that utility crossing So we were just going to leave it as is We're going to leave this scrub. I've never seen a road as built. It doesn't affect the trees Substantially on either side of it Yeah, and it's clear to tell you it. Well, no, you're not going to leave it because the equipment's going to Be in it to be cleared 10 feet outside curb lines on each side But we're the typical that's um in the wiliston zoning bylaws has those trees set like You know 20 or 30 feet outside the curb line. So it's That's in the location where we're actually would have a cleared line So we were hoping just not to to clear existing vegetation In order to plant street trees But I mean like scott said if the the board wants that done we can Right, but to your point you're saying I mean there is enough width there that something's going to be left because we'll put up Project demarcation fence and they don't cross it So I mean we only have so much of an easement. We can't go over it Yeah, it's a violation of the control permit if they go first the the the interesting thing here is that you know, we've asked the The the police Project to give us an image of what how that's going to look But it is the trees that you're either going to cut or not cut and and we until we see that we're going to have less of a Basis to make what you're asking us to tell you right now. So there's a temporal problem here Of we haven't gotten that back So how can we tell you what to do yet? You're looking for us to give you a permit now at which point then we would have a hard time changing Right, but I think we I mean We can make the decision. Yeah, we're going to cut and put in street trees or not. I don't see whatever you want to do I mean, it's not that much is that going to improve be better or worse at screening than what's there now Up there. There isn't much help from what I'm looking at here Well again, I but they're not showing me that and so So if you're you're offering then to to to take that out and put in the street trees Yeah, I mean if the board were to your point, I think if you didn't take them out, you would have more I mean the whole point is the cover from I don't remember what exactly it was But you wanted a view looking up from 89 right going south A rendering so I mean if you go on 89 and you look south Yeah, it would probably be better not to put in the street trees because the street trees clear more swath, right? Then if we're not clearing out that much, we aren't going to go that far with our clear cutting for our road But if we put street trees in then we do have to clear out more because we have to be 10 Feet from the back of curb. So now we got to go another 10 feet that Necessarily, right? I mean, yeah, we've got to go 10 feet outside the Right, it's the utilities otherwise we would not go that far Is that true statement or not? No, okay So I think if you're looking for clear if you're looking for cover not adding street trees is the way to go But to scott's point, they you know, as they've been in there sort of it's all shrubby nasty Stuff in there so It might be beneficial to add the street trees There's very little redeeming quality of the existing vegetation exact and so and yet Right so environmental benefit I'm just you know, and if we wanted to because we this has been we we heard two weeks ago that that's a very special site right there And that maintaining that view as a wooded area is very important I'm not saying that we can actually do this because I don't know the answer to that but if we wanted to actually put more trees in there because It's important to protect that and to maintain the view of that site as a wooded hillside We would have to do that now is what I that's my understanding and that's I feel like we're being asked to make a decision now that We don't know we don't have all the information Well, it's something we can discuss discussing that we would clear additional trees and plant new trees to make it up here Would it I don't want to solve it here? I want to make sure that there is a methodology In place that we could do that As we move forward or do we have to after we deliver it when we deliberate? Are we making the decision tonight? On this, you know or is there some way that we might be able to To leave that open Sounds like whoever's going to build that hotel's got a hell of a landscape to build This has nothing to do with the hotel No, but it would come back after the fact Okay, we can discuss that as a point Sir, I know this isn't I have to do with the police station but since you've brought it up about the uh the view The wooden forest view from the interstate side. Can you have them do one from my side? Because there there's going to be no forest left. They're just clear-cutting that whole thing I'm going to be looking right straight into this project. They don't have any trees in there at all I'm trying to remember whether that is a that is not a that is not a question for this hearing, sir I apologize if you come to the come when they come back opening. I know it looks like an open And I applaud you for taking advantage of that Well, you guys did a recommendation at the pre app for that one. Yes Landscape but we need to discuss that under that hearing different hearing I've just just one more thing for Tina The reparations Can we get something a little more because I was told that I was getting something two weeks ago And like I've told you my wife has leukemia and stress is something I'm supposed to keep her away from so that Whatever thing doesn't happen. It's so if I could get like a date from this guy or a week I can call him tomorrow and see if I can get a date I appreciate that. Thank you Other questions from the board? I'd recommend that you contact her for the state of the next hearing for the Our staff for the day of the hearing that you want to come back and talk about Okay in the police barracks. That's been scheduled. Yeah. No, but you'll get in a butter's letter in the mail Thank you When they're discussing the police will we get notice of that meeting? The properties that are across directly across from 2a We'll get notices Comments from the audience You know comments from the board any questions from the board? Applicants anything else you want to cover? I don't think so. I think that's it Anything else you want me to cover? Okay Thank you for coming It is 1010 and it is tuesday november 12th 2019 The town of williston development review board is out of executive session And the liberation You need to close that Yeah, I'll I'll do that when we get to it. First up is a dp 20-14 adam's real properties jill do would you make a motion, please? Yes as authorized by Wdb 6.6.3 I jill spinnelly moved that the williston development review board having reviewed the application submitted in all accompanying materials Including the recommendations of the town staff and the advisory boards required to comment on the application by the willson development by-law And having heard and duly considered the testimony presented at the public hearing of november 12th 2019 Accept the finding of fact and conclusions of law proposed by the staff for the review of dp 20-14 And approve this discretionary permit subject to the conditions above This approval authorizes the applicant to file final plans obtain approval Of these plans from staff and then seek an administrative permit for the proposed development Which must proceed in strict performance with the plans on which this approval is based Thank you. Do I have a second second all seconds at any further discussion? No further discussion all in favor I I seven i's no nays motion carries Next is dp 20-15 kevin mezuzin If you'd like to make a motion As authorized by wdb 6.6.3 I peter kelly moved that the williston development review board having Reviewed the application submitted in all accompanying materials Including the recommendations of the town staff and the advisory boards required to Comment on this application by the williston development by-law And having heard and duly considered the testimony presented at the public hearing of november 12th 2019 Accept the recommendations proposed by staff for the review of dp 20-15 and authorize the applicant to proceed to residential growth management allocation review Thank you. Do I have a second second? Dave seconds it any further discussion? No further discussion all in favor Seven i's no nays motion carries Next is dp 20-16 it is variance for jennifer and High tran Dave would you make a motion please? Yes as authorized by wdb 6.6.3 Hi david charner moved the williston development review board Having reviewed the application submitted in all accompanying materials Including the recommendations of the town staff and the advisory boards required to comment on this application By the williston development by-law and having heard and duly considered the testimony presented at the public hearing of november 12th 2019 Accept the findings of fact and conclusions of law proposed by staff For dp 20-16 and grant the requested variance for reduction in the 50 foot watershed protection buffer And 50 foot street setback Do I have a second second john seconds it any further discussion? All in favor No abstentions any nays One nay six i's no abstentions one nay motion passes Next is dp 17-01.2 northridge subdivision phase two paul would you make the motion please? As also rise by wdb 6.6.3 i paul christensen moved at the willison development review board Having reviewed the application submitted and all the accompanying materials Including the recommendations of the town staff and the advisory boards required to comment on this application by the willson development by-law And having heard and duly considered the testimony presented at the public hearing of november 12 2019 except the recommendations Proposed by staff for the review of dp 17-01.2 and authorize the applicant to proceed Residential growth management allocation Jill seconds it any further discussion shouldn't there be the word to Yes to proceed to proceed to jill do you still wish to second it? I Any further discussion no further discussion all in favor i Six i's no nays one abstention motion carries Next is dp 13-04.2 vermont agency of transportation v trans park and ride facility It is 10 15 and this hearing is closed at that point John would you like to make a motion please sure as authorized by wdb 6.6.3 i john hemmelgarn moved at the willson development review board Having reviewed the application submitted in all accompanying materials Including the recommendations of the town staff and the advisory boards required to comment on this application by the willson development by-law And having heard and duly considered the testimony presented at the public hearing of november 12 2019 Accept the findings of fact and conclusions of law proposed by staff for the review of the dp 13-04 0.2 and approve this discretionary permit subject to the conditions The conditions of approval above This approval authorizes the applicant to file final plans obtain approval of these plans from staff And then seek an administrative permit for the proposed development Which must proceed in strict conformance with the plans on which this approval is based we're going to add two conditions number 22 Which reads The applicant is to work with the butters to mitigate off-site impacts such as headlight pollution and nighttime construction and other noise pollution All agreements reached shall be submitted to the town for incorporation into the conditions of approval and final plans Can we add all agreements reached with the butters? Yes, you reread that please. Yep Applicant is to work with the butters to mitigate off-site impacts such as headlight pollution and nighttime construction and other noise pollution All agreements reached with a butters shall be submitted to the town for incorporation into the conditions of approval and final plans great Thank you. And we'll go ahead and then we'll add condition number 23 the applicant is to provide a dense mixture of trees In um All right Here we go, you know, we've got a lot of arrows on the sheet here So the applicant is to provide a dense mixture of trees doubling the requirements of a type 3 Informal planting buffer in the median between the access drive and st. George road Great Do I have a second I'll second it Dave seconds it any further discussion No further discussion all in favor All right. All right. Seven eyes. No nays motion carries six eyes. No nays motion carries one obsession Do I have a motion to approve the minutes of october 22? Who would like to make a motion to approve the minutes? So someone someone is going to make that motion with a caveat of All right, I'll make that motion and we approve these minutes as written with the caveat that staff verify the Person the the the individual making each of the of the motions And incorporate those into the final and approved Great. Do I have a second? I'll second each second. Is it any further discussion all in favor? All right Seven eyes. No nays motion carries. Do I have a motion to adjourn the meeting at 10 20? So moved. Thank you everybody. That was good