So what's new today, what's new today? I have an indie web question, but I don't know if that's on topic Sounds in bounds well in bounds close enough for me I've Well, it's also like I need a little bit of help That's what the indie web is all about. Yeah, there you go. I've been too shy to ask on the chat So I figured I would I would talk about it. I'm going to the meeting this This weekend. Yeah, thanks again, Chris But anyway, the problem is I'm trying to I Had a lot of fun with indie log in and india and meetable and all that kind of stuff But on meetable, I cannot get my full name to show up. So I've been trying h-card this h-card that and Yeah, I think it's usually it's parsing your h-card to find the first name and the last name is any name showing up Um, let me let me share my browser and we'll look at it if this is again, tell me when this is not interesting For what it's worth by the way, Jerry the indie web stuff is was really brilliant And the main problem is not None of adoption, so I've had a lot of thought about that So I so so this is my home page, of course, and I've been doing this over and over and over so I see Peter commenced the Wiki showing up at least so that's you know, that's a start Well, this is this is my site, so I'm in control of it. I Can make it make it do what I want Right here is my identity stuff So I think the display none is not the problem So you're only showing the tab with your Peter commiskey wiki in it. You're not showing your full screen. Oh I'm showing my that that browser window. Yeah Yeah, I don't even know how to stop sharing Let's all find it here Actually, I don't know Can you click on this I wonder I wonder if I can share a window Let me try again. I guess I guess I don't have anything too embarrassing on my whole screen, so maybe I'll just do that Window, maybe I'll do the window Thanks, thanks for checking it So it looks like the data is there so then if I So part of part of what may be happening too is you've marked up everything and got that straight and It's possible that that Um If you're talking about the events that indie web site It's possible that they're caching stuff Yeah Hey, but you can always kind of say I'm not going Yeah, something else and then Rear read click the button and it should pull the data Um So this is this is what it looks like I've tried that I've tried I'm not going I'm going Doesn't doesn't help the other fix that we all start calling you Peter Kaminsky wiki Yeah, you know that wouldn't be bad, but I'm also sad about that it well actually I wouldn't care if everybody else was like this But it's I feel like a What is it in Twitter and blue egg or whatever and it's like he can't get it together The social pressure to like, you know get the things moving. No, right? Well, see this see these are the good right kinds of questions actually be in the chat to get some help with Because then it gives you the experience of getting the immediate help within the chat fair enough And very likely is not You'll get somebody like Aaron Parecki who created this particular Insight or you'll get Tantec Chalak.  Yeah So I'm encouraged to lean on the chat more a or The another component of my shyness is that I was I Was setting up to do I actually I was gonna set up in the off and I gave up Like an indie off server and I gave up so I fell back on music just using github and in the login is great at that But when I was ready to pull the trigger I was like early in the morning and indy login was down. Actually, it was late at night. It's super late at night I had a hell of a time finding Who runs indy login if indy login is not up? You have no clue So So, you know, I did some sleuthing and I found Aaron I said I think Aaron is probably the maintainer of the indy login code and maybe he's the maintainer of the site And so I sent him an email and and as soon as he woke up in the morning, he's like, oh crap It always crashes and doesn't come back and I kicked it and it's good again. And so Anyway, I usually if you're if it's Indy web infrastructure He has built or maintains big chunks of all of it or has And most of it and I knew that now Most of it's all open-source too. So if you run it want to run it yourself you could yep or or it's Documented on the Indy web wiki What the thing is and who may be running or own or maintain or do whatever so you can always Kind of search there Cool, thanks, I'll hit up chat more Or or just you know, but and they'll they'll love you If they don't immediately love you say Chris sent me and you'll at least some Some small sheen there but the fact that you can write code and do you could implement most of the stuff they've got you know in a couple of couple of you know vacation days if you wanted And I to be honest to going back a few minutes In my mind, I always call you Peter wiki Kaminsky, so it's interesting to see you have That URL you've waiting at the end instead of in the middle where I put it as a nickname, but you know That's thank you for that It's the DNS worked out that way and I would take it the other way I do have Kamen dot SKI so oh nice. I don't know exactly what I'm gonna do without but Peter doubt wiki Peter out German ski. Yeah, which would be good. I Mean, you're still an eye story. What's that? What's the story behind I story? You know even better I think I've got min ski so I could I could do K at Minsky So cat min dot SKI Yeah That's pretty cool or or Peter K at Minsky min dot ski The story with I story is useful or thanks Chris been all over that page I Shited to ask people in the chat Or something I think That most of the key is if you are going through something and you hit a roadblock and you can't figure out why What happens is somebody will either fix it so that it just works the next time for the next person or they'll Document what's happening so that when somebody like you get stuck. There's documentation for why did you get stuck? So maybe a meta comment about talking about talking about it in this call the Microformats is really well documented, of course But then the practice of indie web and micro formats together kind of some of it's on the wiki some of it's on blog post And there's like it ends up like there's four or five or six different ways to do it, you know, and they're all Different ages kind of especially if you go to I think There's some age card builder, you know, it's just really old and so So I tried that and it makes interesting, you know interesting code, but it didn't work either But the one of the anyway But there was the a lot of the older stuff and some of those little builder things people did almost a decade ago are Our version one of that micro format set up and there is a new version to Yeah the Where the real power is There's probably a dozen parsers written in a dozen different languages that all support version one and version two So that when you're using this stuff generally it works So there's like weird projects probably like that H card builder that are standalone that nobody ever updated But versions of it exist and in the 21 years that stuff has been around Even though older versions exist and still work Most of the stuff has been kept current at least in terms of the big parsers And it's also tended to Coagulate towards a Closer standard even though some of the old stuff you can just try it out and it really it will work No, because the parsers all support it But there are kind of easier better ways of doing some of these things now that everyone has long since settled on Yeah, that make doing some of the stuff a whole lot easier and hopefully most of the documentation on the Micro formats page and on the indie web wiki pages are all reasonably up to date and Reflect all those changes over time That's that's a really good observation. Thank you. I'm Actually remember Micro formats one back in the day And I used to hang out in the same circles as taunt a little bit So, you know, I saw that stuff when it was new and actually I think at foo camp But I have forgotten that I had even forgotten about I think now I think micro formats to is just Micro formats, you know, and so I think you're right that each card generator. I was using is probably micro formats one So, so maybe the takeaway for me is it would be nice to hunt all those things down and kill them on the web instead of Maybe or at least make them look more historical, I guess maybe not kill them Well, I think that if you look at that if I remember because it's been probably five years since I've looked at one or more of those H there were I think two or three of them, but they all looked like 2010 web technology, I mean At least the design of the page is all said. Hey, I'm old And and the way they use the text input boxes and stuff like that. Yeah, that's true Tantek and the others and also in the web and Fediverse people would be real fun participants in these calls Because we keep going back to them Keep talking like it kind of kills me because I'm Ages ago Kevin Marx did a poll request I think Unmastodon and got it to support all of the micro formats natively Yeah, but I it's almost been two years now that they went to JavaScript didn't read format So you can't parse the URL and get any data out of it anymore the way you used to Which is kind of sad But I you know the tough part for me is on all the wiki stuff I do Unless you're writing HTML into it. I don't think anybody's ever put work or time or effort into having Micro formats work with markdown syntax Yeah, which would be a cool thing so that you can just write a wiki in a wiki-like way and it would still All the parsers would understand what's going on or even things that the simple thing and I thought about it this morning and I'm one of I'll put out a call because surely someone has solved it, but even the double bracket wiki links syntax Being able to Resolve within at least a dome its own domain to say hey, there's a document that goes to this place and The double brackets mean it should just resolve automatically. I don't know if anybody has written that code Because I was looking at There's a tool called doc sci-fi and somebody has Simplified it supremely so that you can run it on your own server Just dump the code on your server and it should just work And I'm pretty sure it doesn't and it's called doc sci-fi this Dot net or something and so you can literally if there is a markdown File or text file on the web somewhere that you can point it at it will put it up and Display up a web page So you can instantaneously publish any text document really But I was dead certain I haven't tried it yet Hopefully later today or tomorrow, but I'm almost dead certain wiki links are not going to work on it at all Which means I can't just dump a million files up and expect that you can browse through them one one to another which seems like a you know a Fairly low-tech thing to be able to do But you know, maybe you've solved that problem before Peter. I don't know I Actually had a version of NASA wiki below that that was dynamic like this. Um, I Forget about links, though. I think the trick is that you can't When you're rendering the page Yeah, I guess you can check if the links exist. I think there is The guy who did all the work to make Activity pub work for WordPress I Think but I think he has something similar to it built into WordPress so that if you put a hashtag on something It automatically turns it into a A tag link in WordPress, so he's got kind of that code going the other direction for tags and not necessarily for Link link wiki links and URLs. Yeah, and it's quite possible that Flancy and maybe has done something like that but alas Chris, I don't think I understood the Thing you said about double bracket references Where something's not happening so if I have a Server and I put up a thousand markdown files on it and There is a Double-bracketed wiki link in that text You essentially you need some kind of code on the server to recognize there's a double-bracketed thing and Then have it say okay. I know what this word is Let's look for that document name and all the rest of the files at this level Is this level of love or below is this sort of what obsidian does internally with its vaults and with internal references Yeah, so obsidian does that automatically okay, but when I do that and put it up on the web. Yeah It would be nice if Here's a folder with all these files and they just would automatically enter link Yes, and this is my puzzlement with sort of where we are with massive wiki and stuff like that I mean that there's a lot of nifty power and obsidian that banishes when you publish it It is as a static website It would be really nice to make the round trip or to sort of bridge the union Pete I'm forgetting you had project opal and some some other name as well for what might complete that loop Yeah, I would I'm trying to look through there the docs if I showcase for a good wiki I would imagine it just works the the thing that The thing that gets a little bit tricky is deciding whether or not the page exists or not So mess of wiki builder didn't have it for a long time, but now You go to page and you have a wiki link that isn't resolved doesn't have a resolution page It it knows it and it actually doesn't even make a link out of it It makes it look kind of like a red it's a red link, you know, but it's not even a link It's just a div that was some special formatting So you know not to click You know an incipient page link But you could do that I think even even with Something like Yeah, there's there's just so many tools or so many people are trying to take things where they double bracket stuff And they put it on the web somewhere And nine times that sin the problem is or they're doing it in obsidian privately and then it's like, okay Let's publish this and It's there and it's great But none of the links work because they're wiki links instead of html links. So kind of bridging that html and markdown Just a scotch better or putting in some shims or bridges that kind of make the two equivalent So if you had things like that or things like You know micro formats that work that you and the nice part is you probably could just Say here's what I'm going to make the standard And and have it force it to work at least on one website then other people could either take that and build on it or Force it to work But a lot of times I find myself writing html and some of those documents so that I can get yeah the benefit of the The micro format stuff to work because there are places where It just does lovely wonderful things particularly for parsers that do it And one of my favorite examples and I don't know why it never got codified into social media No I'll use it as an example here, but there's a the site huff duffer.com I can Log in and give it my Website as my identity And then it will go and parse my website and find all of the versions of me on twitter and facebook and everywhere else and if they're all marked up properly you can go to my Identity page on huff duffer and it'll give you the entire list of everywhere else. I am in social media And I don't ever have to maintain it or update it in 57 spots I can maintain it in one spot and everywhere else should just know yeah Or everyone everywhere else can kind of rerun the code and update it so that it's You know just there But I don't have to rewrite my identity and my profile and Where you can find me everywhere else I can just do it in one central place and Everyone else will know So interesting So did we get all the indie web questions out of the way? Yeah. Yeah. I was wondering if you're about to switch topics Um But you know it definitely comes into play because it's all about getting the all the links to work work together properly Yeah, and about being findable and linkable Um, I was going to ask a Probably a light question which is in the last neobooks call um, someone mentioned the indie web page for commonplace books Yes, which is nice and rich and all that and I got to wondering like is my brain a commonplace book like Yeah, I Fall under the I don't really know that the edge cases or the definition of commonplace book in some sense um the So there are So there are pages on the indie web wiki for commonplace book Zettle Costin and I think digital garden which are all Flavors of the same type of ice cream. They just have slightly different flavors. Maybe um It's probably the better way to think about it And if you look at the edit pages of most of those The vast majority of edits on them are from me And it's and that's been part of the process of trying to kind of slightly differentiate what each one is doing and how so in the older version The slightly older definition of commonplace book as they've historically been done typically they were Quotes and excerpts of other things that you read that you collected And not necessarily so much Original stuff your own original ideas or things although many people over time have injected that stuff into it But typically they were little snippets of things you collected along the way and you organized them and reused them in other places um and then there are versions of like zettle costin that are Essentially commonplace books done in a slightly different format In digital it doesn't matter because you don't have a big differentiation between a page and a an individual note um But if you get into all the extra complex like arranging and ordering of things And there are not a lot of examples online of people doing that other than nick loss lumens original version Because nobody else was doing that other than him Uh historically as far as I can tell interesting And then the digital garden space um It really kind of became a thing in 2017 2018 um When some of us in the indie web were playing around and calling it that and then I think Maggie Appleton kind of popularized it With her incarnation and chatting about it on twitter um, but a lot of it goes back to commonplace book traditions or early wiki esk types of online functionality You know or ideas of things like the garden of forking paths type of thing so But in I would say in a general sense A lot of what you're doing within the brain Certainly fits under the the the bigger umbrella of the thing your actual practice And you're linking things together along the way which a lot of commonplace book things don't other than through their index which takes extra work Um And I think that's one of the nice parts about the brain is it adds that linking in automatically like you I presume you could throw things into the brain by outlinking them the way you do But I think most of the value you get back out of it is the fact that everything you put into it is linked to something else Yep, I and I hate orphan thoughts I do not I do I try not to leave behind any orphan thoughts but there's other people who Have a brain that has lots of different little patches of stuff that are not connected and I'm like Is there a UI that shows you orphan stuff? um I think there was once a feature that let you find orphans. I don't Go I'll go check I mean to me that was that really that's one of the values of And nobody talks about it because in obsidian and rome research and a lot of these other places You're almost encouraged to throw in random orphan thoughts Is the default right? But I think one of the most valuable things that lumam pulled out of his particular practices You write it on a card And the physical act of filing it and putting it into the system Forces the link So you would never ever have Or if you did you'd have an orphan link that was at least some somewhere close to something else interesting um But because of the way he numbered his system it tended to force things to always have links So your idea would at least be related to the thing the card just in front of it If not also the card after it right if it's at least got a relationship in time But almost every other digital platform that does that Takes that affordance away And just you've got a mound of a bunch of stuff that is way less useful And I think in every historical context I've ever seen Um, and it's I think almost did sure that's where we get the phrase scrap heap As a junk pile in modern usage is Here's my scrap of paper that's got my note on it And I'm going to put it in a pile on my desk and I may have four or five piles But I may have the pile that I just never Organized in any way shape or form and that scrap heap Literally when I'm dead is Work that means nothing to anyone else. They just don't have that context Thanks, chris so, you know chris what was the um Thing that you were just mentioning that did have that default linking a subtle customer Well, you were talking about zettelkasten, but weren't you saying there was somebody or something that Nicholas So yeah, nicklas lumen The inventor of zettelkasten Oh So his his index card version did that automatically I'm not sure there And the way jerry uses the brain Jerry does that um If you're careful about it you can use obsidian that way if you wanted to but you'd have to Make that part of your daily practice to force that to happen in some sense um, but I'm I'm not really sure there's a lot of note-taking apps that force that affordance as part of the practice And then what ends up happening is you have a huge pile of notes that You can use search and filtering and You know other things to kind of make up for it But you kind of have to know that something's there to be able to search for it And hopefully your memory is at least good enough to do that, but It's not always the case Or tags tags do that in a lot of sense, but Um Default metadata that you know is also Searchable, which is not the case with obviously physical card, but you know that that you have um date length text search Tags if you added them, but yeah, I mean short of adding tags that there are some attributes um Well, I almost think of it too or have been thinking of it in a weird a different hierarchical perspective that you may have topics like You know math and science and history That are big all encompassing top level categories And then as you narrow down You may get into things like topology versus differential geometry and math But you can keep narrowing down to smaller and smaller tags but in some sense A link from one individual note to another Is the smallest tag you could put on something to show Kind of a joint ownership and I don't think a lot of people think of linking things together in that same In that same way Um Is a really super highly specific tag that only two things would have in common And it's so small that you you don't have a name for other than the generic name of link One of the habits I ended up doing was when things collected up a bit too much under a thought I would create a types of whatever Uh, and then that would take all the subclasses and kind of lump them together and it gets really interesting because it's simple to do Consistent and then one day I realized oh, I have all these types of thoughts So I thought hey, I should connect them all up to a thought called types Don't ever pick up a category theory book beater. All right. I'm jerry. Yeah, yeah, you know It will be the end of you. It will totally nobody'll ever hear from me again other Fellowshipy topics questions thoughts. Um, I will Share something I'm working on just because it is It's linky if not fellowshipy With With a a collaborative technology alliance subgroup and related to work that I'm involved in with ESC group I'm compiling a compendium of entity types for for organizations businesses With the aim to Help people find some things that are not DC funded To Things Nation-sharing space That will hopefully provide business incentives for cooperation as opposed to Dog you dog competition Speaking that into this group in case anybody knows of some resources that they would recommend or people who might kind of be involved or Like that, you know, we're just things from uh, you know Purpose-driven Trucks You know different forms of co-ops and multi-part co-ops and Of course, you know And of course How about the zebras zebras, yeah um Well, it's sort of like beyond just being a co-op Where do zebras? What where can zebras happily live?  I mean I would almost say it's like Um trying to identify some Yeah, some some oases that they don't They don't know that exist You know that that they can cooperatively Share without killing each other off But yeah, yeah, I'll take your metaphor Michael I just put a brain link in the chat to a more exotic forms of organization which is kind of A level down from basic co-ops and all that. I also have types of cooperatives Is a thought because there's many subclasses And then there's also an interesting bunch of stuff under types of governance Because there are there are many accuracies And yeah, and I mean honestly the the like governance question. Well, it's super relevant to these things I'm almost, you know, trying to avoid touching that because If you can have like many different forms of governance, I mean it gets really You know the the possible combinations of governance and entity structure billions Just Just sticking to entities is I mean a pro and a con I mean part of the the part of the Initial spreadsheet is like, okay here a bunch of entity types Here are the pros and here are the cons and sometimes You know cons or pros can include aspects of governance that You know this entity type makes more difficult or the easier For governance is addressed, but I'm not trying to break down every form of governance But cool, I mean thank you for this I figured it was worth saying out loud in this group Uh, what brought off I was just looking at the Huffer duffer the huff duffer site. What brought that up? Uh, I was using it as an example of where Having Uh, micro formats On a website to create Common identities was useful And I think that's the one of the few social media sites. I've seen who used Micro formats so that when you go to my identity page, I if something changes I can change it on my website But I don't have to go to every other social site on the planet and change everything else there The huff duffer picks that up and Makes the change for me Oh, that's cool. You know, it's also a fun, you know music bookmarking service Um, yeah music our podcasts I guess right it looks for podcast Yeah Well, the nice part too is it's got an rss a custom rss feed that I can subscribe to so everything I bookmark automatically goes into my feed reader on my podcast client, so There's always something fun to listen to when I'm in the car nice yeah I was just looking at that because It's interesting to me. It's like a format. I think that could be very But I brought more broadly applied Yeah, it's You know, I think of it as like the tivo for the podcast and the audio space Although a lot of um in the last I don't know five years a lot of podcast big corporate podcast things Make it hard to find the actual audio file in the page Um, so, you know, it may take some work to strip it out Depending on which podcast platform you find something in Yeah, it's interesting. I've actually Been playing around with something for this. Let me see if I can I'll pull it up real quick and screen share So like One of the things I've always been really interesting to me is like How do you get the mechanics of a single page app? While still having a normal static website Because there's some things that single page apps are good for like This type of concept like something like comfort differ you have a bunch of things you want to listen to And you're on a website and maybe some of them are audio files. Maybe some of them are in beds right but When you navigate around of course, whatever you're watching will be broken or you have to rely on like a pop out which Like that functionality in the browser is for good security reasons getting worse and worse all the time So this is like really, uh, rough Because I just figured out some pieces of it and it's still in progress Uh, let's see. Ah, here we go Let's see share Uh, I have an actual I don't think okay. Yeah, you can see my chrome screen here So this is an 11 t site every page is statically generated and exists as a standalone page But and I mentioned this before I'm playing around with a tool called htmx Which essentially lets you look at html and mutate your dom So You could go to any single page on this website. It's not on a url yet And get a static html page But once htmx is loaded in It's only changing you can't really see it, but it's only changing a portion of the page So right now like Even though the url has changed and the history state has changed Right, it is only changing a portion of the page behind the scenes And so you can do something where you're like, well, since I'm only changing a portion of the page I can freeze one part of the page Um and get a youtube embed or any other type of media embed in theory. I'm just starting with youtube um Though of course now this is This particular youtube doesn't want to work. Um, let's try that again Does it think I am faking? Let's see The the curse of live demo. Oh, there it goes. Okay All right, so there's music playing Um And this is playing video right And now I can go back to the home page Still playing Still playing I could go to another page and this would queue up the next file Into this player, which is a custom html then And in the background it's still playing everything around and if I were to go back It's still playing Even though i'm hitting the back button So like this is because i'm very interested in like something like huff or duffer but or huff duffer But specifically like for for videos And And where you can do the navigation on the site and so it took me a while But I finally got this working. So I'm very interested in like implementing this in something like Exact sort of exactly like huff or duffer where you're pulling in a bunch of different sources And getting And getting the ability to navigate around the site While still having a perfectly static html website. There's no react. There's no shadow dom It's all working Like seo and stable and standard html. It's just once you start navigating it layers over Um, which is really sort of the I think like the next level for things like this. So I don't have to go to You know, uh a podcast player or rely on Them all to your point being in the right format where I can pull down an actual audio file I don't know how to stop sharing Uh, here we go there Um, so that's like something I've been playing around with because The timeline site I have Is very reliant on a elaborate json file um That then gets reassembled by javascript into new html But because this process this htmx Um script, which is very lightweight is just doing html fragments of mutation I can actually look at ways to just pull the whole html file from another static page Alter it slightly and drop it in using a mutation process of my html Um and sort of save me on maintaining two parallel versions Of an html element one in javascript and one in In that case in nunchucks um Yeah, so That was just it made me think of that and I think like that's sort of a cool thing where we're thinking about storage um and linking things ways to like Navigate through a collection of links and also play them in some way um There's like a web ring version of htmx, which does just embed other web pages into Your web page, which is like the the most extreme version um Yeah, I thought that was interesting. I thought it'd be interesting for this group might be ideas people have from it or Ideas people have about it that they could tell me if you're thinking about something that you'd like to see there um, I know one of the core htmx committers is how I came along and it's a it's an open source project Small to medium size but pretty lively A good way to avoid react I my first question is having watched you do that If you wanted to point me at a particular page Is there actual permanent URL you could give me to make me see the same thing you saw versus me having to Here's the url, but then you've got to do x y and z to see the same It's all it's all static html pages All that is happening in the background is htmx instead of navigating you to the static html page pulls the static html page in Finds the part of it that's changing and mutates the html to change only that part um, so all the static like once this is Live obviously the website's not in very good shape. It's just something I've put together to make sure that my Hypothesis can be proven out as a working web page But now that I've done that I can build it out. But yeah, once it's published. It's all just static html um And in theory like you could turn off javascript and everything would work perfectly fine as well Of course, you wouldn't get a video player because that's all javascript to set up, but um, you could navigate around the site just fine And that way like if there are embeds that are in a particular format or in youtube or whatever And you can't get them anywhere else You just pull them in and the little player that i'm building the idea is right now it's youtube only But the idea is theoretically It's just html and an embed be in an iframe or something else theoretically, I could integrate more than one type of embed in there and then you can have playlists of embeds from different platforms And just have it work like a normal playlist where it advances to the next one and the next one and the next one Which is exciting to me because I like Bringing in the original format where possible podcasts are intended to be downloaded. So something like huff stuffer Works for that in the way that it works or at least like Good podcasts are intended to be downloaded But for other formats, it's not so easy, especially when it comes to video And that's sort of the cool thing right because everywhere there's a static page So there's no extra work to like Like there's so much extra work in react or next j s to make it so that it generates static pages that exist at urls Right instead of you come to a url and then some api has to be called and your router has to be set up etc etc Here it's just static pages in html And I really like that conceptually as a model Instead of react and one of the interesting things about htmx is It wouldn't work for this particular implementation But you can just layer it on to an existing page Where it just takes your links and instead of them being hyperlinks that transition you to a new url They're htmx requests that look for htmx instructions And by htmx requests, I mean it's just a get request That pulls an html page and then does something Or it could pull an html fragment during number of other things um so like i'm interested in Layering it on to Like a podcasting website on wordpress That does uh That just like you take the wordpress theme and you isolate the right parts and you use htmx in the right parts You don't have to change anything about how wordpress is serving the page Or any of the existing pages you're adding a Like 1.4 kilobytes of java script and a bunch of html custom properties And suddenly you have a podcast website where you can navigate around And have the podcast continue to play in the background Which is like You think that this would be like a straightforward thing that everyone would implement But people have but I mean there's a lot of reasons why it is difficult to do It's not something that html is natively intended for And even though like react theoretically is supposed to make this easy Like obviously it isn't because very few places actually do it like the only big site I can think of is like npr Right other than that. I can't think of a player that persists through navigation on any of the major websites I go to And this provides like a potential way that it could be done really easily because Most websites have pieces of the website that are isolated pieces of the website that are unisolated that change as you navigate And you can control it by just layering the appropriate data properties on the html I'm going to do a write up once it's all working With more details, but like I think it's really interesting in the idea that You could take your existing website that's generated by wordpress or static stuff or whatever and just Have a new layer of interactivity that html normally is missing That is I've got a question Well My brain's too full right now to with this and other stuff To ask the question or figure out the question, but I have the question How about a chat service that's using individual html files for the messages and then htmx to assemble it Yeah, that could work I I don't see a reason why I couldn't write like in addition to using in addition to just pulling an html page Finding the parts that mutate and then mutating them. It also is set up in such a way that you can just Like the the other way that a lot of people use it is they have apis That just provide html fragments and then htmx mutates them in in some way um and the player like combines htmx with um custom html elements and their capacity to react to On page events which htmx provides along with component mount Unmount and other stuff like that. So you have a lot of automated interactivity The video player pulling in and starting you the youtube player That's all just when I load an htmx fragment There's an event that says, you know page has mutated and when that goes I scan for an invisible span That has all the metadata about the video and pull it in um using the custom html um listeners So like it's you could do a whole bunch of things with this potentially um Depending on what you want to do like like with everything the question is whether this is the right tool for that particular job It's just hard to tell without more detail So another random idea is using markdown fragments instead of html fragments And have htmx, you know render them on the fly Yeah, it isn't really meant to do that though. I guess it theoretically could I think like the intent from something like htmx is You have end points that do the rendering of the markdown On their side and then you pull it in using htmx It's certainly theoretically possible though Yeah, I I get it. I get why you would do that but now I also I guess I want to junk up the one point whatever kbytes of javascript it'd be cool if they were htmx plugins and a plugin would be a markdown renderer for instance There are so htmx does have a plugin structure. So it should be possible to build an htmx plugin I really don't know. I haven't played around with any plugins other than like different DOM mutation methods um, they have like They're a native one and two other ones that are like optimized for different use cases um So I don't know maybe yeah, I should be possible I mean it'd be really like your browser reads a markdown file as a text an html text for example So there is technically html there as far as the browser is concerned Well in some of our spaces and I always thought it was fairly clever and it's I think all done in javascript for tiddly wiki But you can start at a card and click on something that pulls up another card below it and then keep adding cards so and then as you do the url changes and becomes immensely long But you can then say I've used all these different cards to create a story and then here's the url for that story So it's a essentially a built-in playlist of all the notes and pieces That you can then share and then somebody can see that version But it would be interesting to be able to do that and kind of a note space to say I've got eight million pages on my website or let's be more realistic. I think I have Somewhere in the range of about 60,000 pages on my personal website But it'd be cool if I wanted to have a version of a whole bunch of different card pieces of content strung together in a continuous story to say Here's a bunch of small pieces I've written and then turn it into a longer story playlist or an article or some other thing And then say here's the url for that and you can then read through it Um Which is now I've got jerry buzzing. How can you use this for neobooks? Well, so you just circle directly into neobooks like territory except we wouldn't make a long confusing url out of it We would just say here's the list of nuggets that you want to roll up Into whatever it is you want to present however you want to present it Yeah, so very very much the way we're thinking Yeah, I'd imagine you could do that though like It wouldn't generate an h like you wouldn't have a static html page. That would be like a dynamically generated one You'd be traversing pages or you would roll things up into a serial text to pretend to be a book Yeah, I suppose like in theory you could Assemble them into a thing and then like have a button that bakes the resulting html Into static html in some way. What was the name of those little ovens that you could fake like you're cooking the Yeah easy bake easy bake. Thank you. Yeah They weren't very good. Oh, no horrible and they were super small, but you know in case you don't want to give


Hello, welcome to this lecture of the History of Color Photography. We only touch on a few things, we're not getting totally deep dive as this is not necessarily an art history course, but a lot of these topics will be sort of the basis of where we are today and influence where we're going to go throughout the semester. So we're going to kind of start off with talking a little bit about the science of color. So we're going to start off with Sir Isaac Newton, known for his nominal bringings of physics to what we know today. Well, yes, he did have a lot of physics, but he was really interested in optics and how we see things. So he was interested in understanding the rainbow and light and how we see light. So he was at home during a plague and he was interested in just filling around as one physicist does with a light like a glass prism that he had. A prism is at the ends, there are triangles and it kind of extends out. And he was playing around in the dark room trying to see from the visible light spectrum where color comes from because there was a lot of background of how do we get colors, you know, where do colors come from? So he's playing around this prism in the dark room and he angles his prism just correctly and he gets the component colors of red, orange, yellow, green, blue, indigo and violet. You may know it as Roy G. Viv, a good way to memorize the traditional rainbow of sort of the colors in the visible light spectrum. And the visible spectrum of light is sort of this narrow band of electromagnetic energy and that narrow band is what we can see with the human eye. I know animals can see different colors and light patterns, of course, but this is what we in this band of visible light is what we can see color from. So he's using like prisms and mirrors and he's looking into the colors and the spectrum and he is able to angle his prism out so that you can get like isolate the colors. So he kind of figured out, OK, if you combine blue and green light together, you can get cyan and if you combine green and red light together, it can get yellow, etc., etc. So he's like isolating the colors out and really kind of figure out how colors mix and how colors isolate. So this is an example of his color wheel. As you can see, this may look very different than a color wheel of going through elementary school where, you know, the opposite of red was green and yellow was blue and orange was purple. This is a little bit of a different color spectrum for the visible color, you know, different color wheel. We're updating it for the art way. And this is an example of how he kind of bent the color bands together to kind of create these other colors. So if he bent the green band plus the blue band, he got cyan, etc., etc. Another important thing to think about when we get into color photography is actually how we see color. So we have these bands of visible light and they're coming in to the world around us. And what we're seeing is actually what's reflected off of an object and we're only seeing what is reflected off.  So the other colors, the orange, yellow, green, etc., are being absorbed into that object. The only thing that is reflecting is the ladybug. And again, how we see color is a lot more deep than that. There's some videos for recommended viewing and required viewing that might be of help to understand how we see colors. If you are colorblind or have visual impairment, your visuals of colors may be very different. Now we talked about the color wheel and we think about how colors mix. We're working on two main portions, additive and subtractive color. So additive color is for red, green, and blue, RGB. You may have noticed this working in other departments like Illustrator, Photoshop, etc., where these are sort of your primary colors for this color spectrum. So when you combine the colors, all together it would equal white. And then where they intersect would be the secondary colors of yellow, cyan, and magenta. Now these are sort of direct viewing colors. So if you're looking at a computer screen which has RGB nodes into it, and some actually have cyan nodes, which is another story about how the digital screens are produced. But when you're looking at these screens, you're seeing direct color. Think of it if you are traditionally painting or drawing, you're adding the pigments together to create these colors. And then we have the subtractive color, which is actually what we work a lot with in print. So this is sort of the opposite. So your primary colors are cyan, magenta, and yellow, where they intersect would be RGB, and all those colors together would create black. And then the absence of color is white. This is mostly done with sort of filters or dye. So if you're physically printing a photograph, this is how it would go. And the varying proportions of the color kind of layer up to create different tones. This would be indirect light, so it's reflected. So anything that's sort of printed as a photograph or painted, that would be indirect. And you would see this as CMYK. K stands for key, which is black, because you want to get a true black when you're printing. And adding it together, you can get a deeper black than what's presented with all of them added together. So if we're looking at photographs and colors with it, we can talk about toning photographs. So traditional black and white medium photographs or alternative process to create the idea of color or tones. This isn't a true color photograph. So tone photographs, most popular are the cyanotypes, which you may have heard of as sun prints. These photographs are work on direct printing. So if you're in the dark room, you're doing a contact print to get your contact sheet or even the photograms, this process is for the cyanotype. So it's really simple. So you get the chemicals together to get this true blue color, and you can actually tone them different colors. You can also buy material to have different tones. So I have a material that I bought over at Hobby Lobby or Michaels that would give me a cyanotype but in a magenta hue. So it's very fun. But you have these iron salts, potassium, ammonium citrate, it can be a little caustic if you're not doing this appropriately. And you kind of paint it on your surface, whether it is watercolor paper, fabric or any sort of medium like that. That isn't too porous. I wouldn't recommend this on wood without doing like a primer or something on it. But anyway, so you paint it on your surface, let it dry, and you do this in a darkened room. It doesn't have to be pitch black like a dark room, just a room that doesn't have any sunlight low light in. So you paint your surface and then you take it to UV light. So whether that is a UV light table created specifically for this type of process or just a sun, a nice bright sunny day, which we have a lot of in Arizona, then it has to be exposed for a certain number of time. You'll do some test prints to figure it out, to figure out exactly what is a good ratio of time. And then you would just rinse off the unused iron salts and you can create your image, which is very blue. What's really cool about this is that it doesn't take a lot of work to do. It's great for artists who are kind of proofing negatives out in the field to get an idea or even documenting nature. And here we have sort of it how it would look like off of like a negative. So we get sort of this really nice detail in a blue tone, which is something that's a little different than the black and white we've seen. It gives a different view, but it's still sort of a monochromatic idea of an image. So then we have hand colored photography. So daguerreotypes were really popular. It was sort of the most accessible means of photography out there. You would create these daguerreotypes and they weren't super expensive. So it really brought photography into the hands of everybody. Now people had these daguerreotypes and they want to kind of push it to the next level and how can they kind of make these images pop. Now traditional wet plate, Chlodian or daguerreotype have insane detail. They're gorgeous. They're beautiful.  So what they would do is they would take a mixture of pigments and use gum arabic and kind of heaten it up a little bit to make it more pliable and to hand color the sanotypes. So they would paint on the surface and try to give some sort of depth to it. They're sensitive to light moisture and abrasion. So a lot of these hand painted daguerreotypes are not saved that well. It also was kind of like a status symbol. Like look, I've got this fully painted daguerreotype in my house. I'm very bougie. I'm very fancy. But you know, everyone's trying to show off at their high end photography here in the late 18th century, early 19th century. They did create a way to kind of make color through electrolysis. So you would like put the plates in different parts of solution and they would produce different colors to sort of automate the process as the hand process could be labor intensive. Now, we're not just looking at history photography in the West. There was a real rise in Japanese hand colored photography. So as travel became a lot more popular in Japan, people wanted to take souvenirs with them. And these photographs were a great souvenir. Now, people who are traveling from the West, they didn't want a then contemporary version of Japan that is evolving similar to what they are in their same sort of industrial revolution. So they wanted to look at sort of this traditional look and tell you one of this was what Japan looked like in these these photographs. It's a little problematic. But they wanted this sort of like romanticized version of Japan. What really made these a little different is that they weren't using daguerreotypes, but they were using album albumans, which are traditional, different alternative process for photography. And then they were using like watercolor paints to paint on them. The watercolor paints weren't, you know, they did fade easily. But the color I think the detail and like the delicacy of the watercolor really shows through on these prints. Now, we have these sort of ideas of what we think color photography could be. And then we started making actual color photographic images. So this is considered the first color photograph. So James Clark or James Clark Maxwell. He was mostly just a physicist. He wasn't really interested in photography, but he was interested in the physics of light. So this is a tartan ribbon. Can't really see it well. But so he had someone photograph this picture into three different filters. So he has a red filter, take a picture of it, a green and a blue. And they also did a yellow, but he did not need the yellow filter. And he sandwiched those filters together to create this image. So if we see this sort of picture, we have the red filter, green and blue. And when they layer on top of each other, that creates the full color image. Now, the same idea kind of became different. People are so excited what they can do with these kind of filtered images and layered and created full photograph is that they created these three color cameras, the chromograph scopes. So they create the separate images and then you just sandwich them together. This wasn't a great process. It was heavy. You know, it didn't really work too well. It was clunky. You had all these negatives. There's just a lot of areas where this just wasn't as successful as earlier photographic endeavors. And then came the autocrome. So the autocrome was created by the Lumiere brothers. So if you're interested in the history of film, both moving image and still image, the Lumiere brothers were. Pioneers in moving film. I talk about them in my other class, but the autocrome. So you have these plates that are used with like potato skirt, potato starch and the color these little grains is as four million per square inch. That is huge. So think of the detail where usually print 300 pixels per inch. Four million per square inch is a depth of resolution. That is insane. So they create these plates with these dyed potato starch to get the colors and when the emulsion goes through, there's like a chemical reaction to the starch grains to create this full color image. Autochromes were really just sort of this. Exciting thing. You didn't need a special camera like this to create a full color photograph. You just need the specific plates. And then you can get a full color photograph. This was a great way to send to the masses of what you can do with color photography. So here we have a sort of a diagram of the autocrome structure. So you had the glass, the physical thing that the photograph needs to be on. A varnish to sort of adhere the colored screen together and then another varnish and then the emulsion, which is if you're familiar with film photography, sort of develops and gets your latent image on to your surface. And you have another example here. The colors aren't as vibrant as what we may see today with today's digital cameras. However, they're pretty vibrant for the time. They're very gorgeous. The detail is insane. So this let other people see color in different areas. So, oh, I didn't know what kind of dress that the princess was wearing because I only could read about it in the newspaper. But now I could see a photograph and get an idea of what was going on. And the autocrome really allowed people to kind of push the idea of photography a little differently because now they could see in color. Now, the autocrome wasn't sort of this huge thing where everybody was making color photographs because it still was more expensive than what we have today. But, you know, it allowed people who could afford the materials to really explore. So we're going to talk about color film. I'm a huge fan of film, color film. So we're going to kind of talk about how it's developed and kind of different parts of it. So you have Coda Color, which is the first negative film. So if you worked in a photography one or in a traditional dark room, you've most of you used negative film, which is a reversal of what you would normally see when you morally take a photograph. This was huge because it was film, so it was cheaper. Instead of the big glass plates, portable, you can put it in your camera. And early Coda Chromes is it was both you pay for the actual film and the processing, so you would take your photographs and you would mail your canisters back to Kodak and they would process it and send it back now. They're processing, you know, they kind of had this antitrust case because they were the only ones who could process it. It was kind of creating a monopoly on the market. But yeah, so Coda Color negative films work with the additive color process. They come in many different formats. Film typically you would see 35 millimeter. You may see medium format 120. And then there's different formats labeled here, but they're not really in use today. It was used, introduced in 1942 and technically discontinued in 1963. However, you can buy film that is listed as Coda Color, say at B&H or Freestyle. Then there's Coda Chrome. So this is the slide film. So it's the positive image. It uses subtractive color and a different sort of chemical process. The previous was C22. Coda Chrome is K14 and it came in a lot more different modes, formats, both in for motion picture in still images for like 16, 8 millimeter, et cetera. And a lot of really great work came from Coda Chrome. It was discontinued. Different forms of it were discontinued between 2002 and 2009. But it's mimicking of colors just has like a certain quality to it. And that's what a lot of people will say about color film is that color film has a different quality than digital. It's softer, it's sharper, it has this realism. Color film makes an image completely different than say a digital image. So there's always the big love for color film. Now typically we see film in sort of three different designations for the processing. This is how after you shoot the film, how do you get the images fixed onto the negatives so then you can use it for printing or scanning. So the three main processes that are used today is C41. So this is for color negative films. There's different emulsions that you need to use. So you have to think about the different chemicals and bleach baths to process the film. Then there's black and white film. This is what you would process in photo one here at Phoenix College. This is film that has no color so you're only having one layer of light sensitivity. So you don't have to be as stringent on say the temperature or the agitation of your chemicals. And then there's E6 which would be for slide film. So it's different types of processing, different baths of the chemicals. But these are the different types of film processing that you would see today. We're going to talk about my favorite thing and possibly the whole entire world is the color dark room. So you would get your color negatives and you would make your prints. And if you've taken photography one, you know how to make a print. Color dark room is a little different because not only are you getting to worry about your exposure and quality of your tones and the sharpness of your image, you are throwing all of that in plus the correct color. Now your film is typically rated for daylight or tungsten. And you may have to correct it based on the right light.  But you have to kind of correct it. So you would work in the dark room and you would have your paper and it would give you a range of colors. You would work with cyan, magenta, and yellow. And the box of paper would give you a approximation of where you set your dials at. Typically it was like 65, 70, zero because you only really need to adjust two colors to get everything just right. So I would set magenta at 65 and yellow at 70 and then my cyan at zero. And you would see the dials here on your enlarger. And then you would make a test print for your exposures and you always would look for your exposure first. And then you would look at your test print in natural light. Typically you would actually have daylight rated light bulbs or we were by lots of windows. You want natural light, you don't want anything that could affect your viewing of color. And you would use these color slides to see if you need to add a little bit more blue or red. Because the image down below with the umbrellas is a little red or magenta. So I would have to go back to my traditional color wheel of CMYK. The opposite of blue would be yellow, magenta, green, cyan, red. So if my image was red, I would grab my green filter and kind of look at it through these sort of windows and I would kind of quickly move and inspect and say okay maybe I need to add a little bit of green and at the bottom of the cards they would say you need to add this much magenta and this much cyan to create that color. And then you would make your color changes and still kind of look at it. Additionally in the color dark room it's not yet to have pitch black. So in a black and white dark room you're going to have the red safe lights. But in a color dark room everything has to be pitch black. There's like the tiniest safe light. And typically all your chemicals also have to be at precise timing and temperatures. So you can do a tray method for color dark room. But larger color dark rooms they would have this huge machine called a processor. And in the dark room you would expose your paper, walk to the processor, kind of slide it in, kind of like convey your belt. And it would wait about I think like seven minutes and then your paper would come at the end dry ready to go. Fixed, you don't have to do anything to it. And you can look at your prints and sort of evaluate from there. And that's mostly like a community dark room atmosphere. So understanding the color dark room processes actually help you understand how to color correct in digital. It is a shame that color dark room is disappearing all over. It is possibly one of my favorite things to do. Lastly, we're going to talk just briefly about digital color. So we work most all digital cameras, very few don't use the Bayer filter, which color comes into the filter, which goes into the image sensor, which creates these patterns to create color on your digital image. And it would create color in RGB to create your colors. Sometimes again, you would see RGB E, E would be cyan. I don't know why E equals cyan, but it does to create the full colors. So this is all just a little bit to kind of help you think about the history of color as we work in color photography this semester. I would encourage you to go through the recommended readings and viewings to get kind of a better idea of the history of color photography, whether you're interested in the digital aspect, the physics, or even the analog aspect. There are some record required viewing slash readings to get you started. If you have any questions, feel email, feel free to email me or if you just want to talk about color film, or if you want to try color film photography with your film camera, I can definitely kind of help you navigate where to start.