Welcome to Sheboygan County Government. Working for you, my name is Adam Payne, Sheboygan County Administrative Coordinator and co-host of this program with Chairman Bill Gehring. And today we're very pleased to have a special guest from UW Extension, UW Extension agent, Mike Ballweg, who has been doing some real good work for Sheboygan County for a number of years and most recently has taken an important leadership role with Farm Technology Days. Mike, good to have you with us. Glad to be here. Mike, please begin sharing a little bit about your roles and responsibilities as a UW Extension agent, your specialties and how long you've been working for Sheboygan County. I've been here in Sheboygan County serving as an agricultural agent for about the past 19 years. I specialize in the agronomy area and the plant science and also provide leadership in developing educational programs for horticultural programs, educational programs here in the county. So my other sort of unique role the last three and a half years has been serving as the executive secretary for Farm Technology Days coming up next month here in Sheboygan County. So as the executive secretary, you're taking all the minutes and doing a lot of the behind-the-scenes work and probably not really getting out there in front. Well, I've done some of both. I've been out. I'm kidding you. I know you've been leading, Mike. Yeah, a little bit of both. And try to provide the overall direction and coordination and leadership for getting our volunteers and committees up to speed to host a great show. Well, before we get into the show, let's talk a little bit more about you and your roles and responsibilities. 19 years in Sheboygan County. Chairman Gehrig and I have had Dave Sutch on the program a few times, so I think our viewers certainly might be familiar with Dave Sutch and the work he does. But again, you have a little different angle, a little different responsibilities. Where are you predominantly working? What educational programs do you work with when you're not leading the charge with the Farm Technology Show? Like I said, my primary educational focus is in crop sciences. So I work primarily with farmers throughout Sheboygan County to help them understand and implement new technologies that would improve their cropping practices. Being a dairy county, a lot of that cropping emphasis is on producing and harvesting quality forages. And when I say forages, that's the feed stuff that cows eat. But good quality, harvesting those materials in a timely way is critical for good production. So when we also talk about cropping systems, we spend a lot of time discussing wise pesticide use, water quality issues as it relates to soil erosion. So there's quite an emphasis on increasing the use of no-till to reduce soil erosion and practices like that. I find, at least in my experience, and my grandmother's got a century farm as you know in Sheboygan Falls, Bernice Toggy, and I think the world of her. But it's amazing how many people don't have a real appreciation for where that gallon of milk comes and where that cheese comes from and just how important agriculture is. And that's my question. How important is agriculture in Sheboygan County? Well, agriculture is very important to our local economy. And when we factor together not only those people that work on farms, but we include all the industries that support them, the veterinarians, the implement dealers, the nutritionists, and also the people that are involved in the processing of food, of that raw product, in this case milk primarily, we're looking at about 9,200 jobs here in Sheboygan County are related to our employee in either the production or the processing of food products. So a pretty significant amount. And when we look at the total economic activity of that contribution, we estimate that our ag economists have put together some numbers, about $1.67 billion a year of economic activity related to agriculture. And that's about 20% of Sheboygan County's economy. So it really is a big player here in Sheboygan County. Pretty impressive numbers. Now, you said about 9,200 folks involved with agriculture production. In your role, working with predominantly farmers, how many farmers do we have? Specifically folks with dairy operations, whatever. We have about 220 dairy farms. We have about 1,100 farms. So there's a lot of people that are involved in agriculture, some very large farms. And in more recent years, a growing number of smaller farms, part-time farmers, who enjoy some farming. But most of their income comes from off farm. And come July 11, 12, and 13, we're going to get to showcase Sheboygan County and the agricultural community. And with that, I'll transition to the farm technology days. And please start by sharing, how did this come about? How did Sheboygan County come to host the Wisconsin Farm Technology Days? Well, we received a call back in 2002 to find out if we might be interested in hosting Farm Technology Days in 2006. So some of the preliminary discussion was in our local UW Extension office with fellow staff. And a little further discussion with the Ag and Land Conservation Committee to sort of feel out their support. And there was support both within our office and from the committee. And at that point, a resolution was put together to the Sheboygan County Board and was supported in April of, I'm sorry, in January of 2003, 2003. So at that point, we were sort of cleared on the Sheboygan County side. And we made a bid to the Wisconsin Farm Technology Days Board. And we were awarded the show in April of 2003. April of 2000. And I can obviously recall, we were reminiscing about that before the program started here about how at the time, it seemed like it was so far out. And here it is. We're three weeks away, so. The county board obviously had to support hosting it here. We were selected then by the state board to have it here. And when was the last time Sheboygan County hosted this? I was last hosted in Sheboygan County in 1975 on the Robert Webb Farm on the Western side of the county 31 years ago. So it's been a while. It's been a while. Some of our viewers are probably wondering, well, what is Farm Technology Days? They've built it up here as it sounds pretty impressive. What is it? What's the purpose of the program? Farm Technology Days is, I guess, first and foremost, the premier egg trade show in Wisconsin each year. And the idea is to provide a venue for farmers, whether they're part-time or full-time, to come to the show to learn about the latest technologies, innovations, services, and products that they might be able to use to improve their farm business. So those are the two primary. And secondly, as it moves around the state each year, it's an opportunity for the host county to show off their agricultural practices in that area. So set the stage for us a little bit. Where is it going to be hosted? Give some acknowledgment to our host family here. And what can people envision when they think of Farm Technology Days? If they go there for the first time this year, what are they going to see? Yeah, let me start first. The host farm is the, their farm is called Quonset Farms. It's the Hessling family. The location is just west of the village of Gibbsville. I think most people know where Gibbsville is. But it's a six-generation family farm started in 1847. And they have about 600 acres of cropland and 800 cattle have within the last several years just modernized their dairy facilities. So it's a state-of-the-art modern dairy farm. And the Hessling family, Mark and Barbara are the parents. They have three sons that are partners in the business, Mike, Ben, and Scott. And one of the keys to a successful show is having a great host family. And they have been just absolutely great to work with. So things have gone very well on that part of the planning process. Good to hear. We had the opportunity, Bill, and I, to be out there for a media day that you helped put together and was that fantastic and obviously gave us a little snapshot. But clearly, a lot of people involved to make this happened. And again, when someone rolls in that day, what can they expect to see? Well, sort of the centerpiece for the show is this area we call Tent City. And that's literally what it is. It's about 70 or 75 acres in size. And it's in that area where exhibitors come in and set up, in many cases, their tents or whatever the exhibit might be. It's laid out with the streets and avenues. And it's an opportunity, again, to learn about the latest products that are being offered by the industry. Excellent. Thanks, Mike. As Adam mentioned, we were at the media day and we were really impressed by the organization and the number of people involved. I've heard that there is something like 1,000 volunteers. How do you organize all of those volunteers? Yeah, there are about 1,000 volunteers. And really, a little bit more, and I'll just back up and talk a little bit more about my direct involvement. When we found out that Sheboygan County was going to be hosting the show, one of my responsibilities was to pull together an executive committee. There are 15 people on this executive committee. And I was very fortunate, I think, to put together a committee that is very talented and has had a lot of experience working with groups of people. So it's those 15 members that have responsibilities to provide leadership for a specific committee or activity. And those included everything from admissions, to food, to parking, to traffic. So we divided up among the executive committees the different functions that needed to be covered for the show. We've had in the past three years, well at least the last year and a half have been meeting nearly monthly to sort of keep on track with covering the details. The executive committee members then identify either a chair or co-chairs to really put the sort of the boots on the ground to begin to get other volunteers to help them do the tasks that need to be done. So it really is pretty organized. And the volunteers have just done a lot of excitement and have done a great job of stepping up to do what needs to be done. You mentioned that the farm consists of about 600 acres. How much of that farm is actually going to be taken over by farm technology days? Yeah. The 10th city area where we have our commercial exhibitors is about 75 acres. Between two different parking areas, we have about 100 acres for parking. And then we have about 250 acres that will be used for field demonstrations. And so an opportunity for implement companies to put their equipment in the field. And those attending can sort of see it operate and make their evaluations in the field that way. Farm technology days has a long history, but will there be anything unique about this year's program here in Sheboygan County? Well, one of the things that I find particularly interesting is that for the first time this year, the entire show, the electrical needs of the entire show will be provided using generators. So we are renting coaler generators to provide the power for the show. And then with a sponsorship from the Wisconsin Soybean Marketing Board, received a sponsorship to purchase soy biodiesel. So we'll be running soy biodiesel in our generators and also in all the field equipment. So we've got this little tagline that says 2006 Farm Technology Days powered by Soy Biodiesel. So we have farmers that produce the fuel that we can burn in our generators and equipment to power the show. So a nice fit there. How many commercial exhibitors will be at the show? Yeah, we expect about 600 commercial exhibitors from about 25 different states. And I also understand there's exhibitors coming from Brazil and Canada as well. Now the show will run for three days. How many people do you expect over that three day period of time? We would estimate somewhere in the neighborhood of 25 to 75,000 people over that three day period. I've heard a figure of what the economic impact will be upon Shebug and County. But I can't remember what that is, but it seemed like a fantastic number for Shebug and County. Do you happen to have that figure? I've seen a range of numbers from $6 to $10 million of local impact because of the show. We generally, in our planning, require that I anticipate that about 1,000 hotel rooms will be used primarily by the exhibitors who are in town for at least a week, in most cases, by the time they come in, set up, and then tear down after the show. So it's those dollars spent on lodging, restaurants, and transportation coming in and out of town. So a rather significant opportunity for local businesses, restaurants, hotels to capture that market for a couple days. Really a great time to once again showcase wonderful Shebug and County. Well, it really is. And there's a lot for people to see here. One of the great things about hosting the show in Shebug and County is that we're both rural and urban. So there's a lot of activities for our guests if they're not attending the show to get to learn other parts of Shebug and County. Thank you. $6 to $10 million of economic impact. And I think the county board, when they authorized this, what was the county's contribution, about $40,000? Mike, do you recall? Well, there's actually, and half of that $40,000 is seed money, which will be paid back to the county. So a $20,000 investment for a $6 to $10 million of economic impact on the community. I think that's a pretty good bargain. Well, and it's a tribute to all the time and effort of the volunteers who have worked the last couple years on putting the show together. Absolutely. And the folks like yourself and all the staff that you've been coordinating with. I know you mentioned earlier the range and the diversity of the executive committee that's worked with different areas and the tremendous job they're doing. And clearly, you and they have been reaching out to some of our departments, such as the sheriff on traffic control and highway and getting the driveways set up and the airport with some of these folks coming in. What did you say from Brazil? Yeah, Brazil and Canada, we have people coming from. So, right. Pretty tremendous. And folks are adding that on to their general course of work. So we appreciate that. Bill just mentioned it. And you did a nice job discussing it. And Shaboin County, we're a little more unique here because we have such a nice diversity of rural and urban. And obviously, we have such a beautiful county. I imagine there are viewers watching this thinking, farm technology days, sounds interesting. I'd like to check this out. If they're not a farmer or if they're not one of those 9,200 people involved with agriculture here, what does this show have to offer them? Well, from the beginning in our planning process, we were thinking about urban folks attending or at least reaching out to the urban community to consider attending the show. So because Shaboin County is both urban and rural, because we're relatively close to Milwaukee and relatively close to Green Bay, we thought we really wanted to do an outreach to the urban community. And one of the underlying objectives because there is really such a small number of us still involved in production agriculture is that we feel we need to, we want to educate the general public about what is happening in agriculture and a little bit about it. So we've, a couple of committees have spent most of their time developing opportunities for families to spend the day at farm technology days. We have an area called Family Farm Adventure. And we'll include areas like there's a petting zoo, there's a fish farming area. There's an area called an energy zone. I'm not exactly sure what that is, but it sounds like it's good for kids. There'll be a little area on mink education. We'll also have some cultural things. The Hmong community will be there with some dancing performances. And we'll also have the cows on parade, which is a promotion of the Wisconsin Milk Marketing Board. And we'll have several of those life size made out of fiberglass painted by artists there. So there really will be a lot of things for families, even if they don't know anything about agriculture to stop out and spend the day. Children under 12 are free. Those over 12 and adults are $3. Parking is free. So it'd be $3. $3 admission. Parking's free. And there is a food and drink available on site. And of course, being Sheboygan County, we will be serving Johnsonville Brats. And the big girl is we'll be cooking them up. But a great way for a family that might be interested just to learn a little bit about agriculture, be outside, and spend the day. We'd like to have. Great way to bring the community all together. Yeah, really is. The parking, you mentioned. It sounds like 100 acres of parking. And I imagine there's going to be some people who might be concerned about, well, when you park that vehicle, how far are you going to have to walk to get to the entrance gate? Or there might be some folks who have trouble walking. What kind of accommodations do you have? Well, for those people who may need some assistance on our north gate, we do have a handicapped parking area, which is right outside the gate. And then if they would like, they can rent on site for the day a scooter, a handicapped scooter kind of thing to get them around. You can imagine 75 acres is a pretty big area, and there is a need to walk if you're going to see the show. So for those, and then in our general parking area, we will have what we call trams that will be picking up people, getting them closer to the gate so they're not needing to walk the entire distance. Pretty impressive. Well, I think the volunteers and all the individuals, Sheboygan County Department heads have done a great job of providing us the assistance. Land Conservation Department has done a lot of surveying, information systems has done our website. And I would encourage people, if they're thinking about coming out to visit our website, they'll get a lot of information about the show layout and activities. If they do go to the website before they come out to kind of get them oriented to the site, then there's maps. So I think if they'll just even Google farm technology days, they should get to our websites. Very good. And if they have trouble getting to the website or if they just have more questions, is there a general line or someone you would encourage them to call? Yeah, I would have them call our UW Extension Office and that would number is 467-5742. 467-5742. Yeah, and we'd be happy to provide any other information. For me, it was a little bit of a step back in time at the media day. I imagine, what were there? Maybe 200 people there that day? About 200 people, yeah. And one of your executive committee members is the former Allison Darylund. Right. Is she not? That's right. And I worked at the Department of Aged Trade and Consumer Protection when she was selected. Didn't get to know her real well, but saw her in action a little bit. And I just recalled having a real positive first impression of her. She's outgoing. She's just a positive person to be around. And at media day, I know the two of you had a leadership role. And in particular, she was introducing all the executive committee members, as well as the new Allison Darylund. And just was very impressed with her. I don't know if you want to talk a little bit about some of the key people you have. Yeah. Her name is Courtney Booth. And she has provided all of our leadership for publicity and promotions. And having been Wisconsin's 50th Allison Darylund, sort of had to develop the skills, and I think has even continued to develop those skills since that role. But the experience of Supervisor Jens, Bill was on the executive committee in 1975. So his experience and also his connection and the supervisor role on the county board has been a great help, too. So all of the executive committee members, and like I said, there's 15 of them. But they have all done an outstanding job. And I often think that if I would have had a huge budget to hire people, I mean, I couldn't have hired 15 better people to do the job. Excellent. Well, Mike, we sure appreciate you taking some time to join us today and share with our viewers what's happening with farm technology days. Again, July 11th, 12th, and 13th. And it just sounds like it's going to be fantastic. We just need the weather to cooperate. Well, that's right. We're looking forward to a great show. And we'd like to invite Urban and Rural to attend. Well, thanks for joining us. And thank you for joining us. Appreciate you being with us today. I hope you learned a little bit more about one of the many programs that Sheboygan County works with. And Mike certainly has done a tremendous job. And we sure appreciate it. And know this wouldn't happen if it wasn't for the generosity of all of the volunteers in this community. I just, when I see something like this come together, I can't help but just be so impressed with the generosity of people in this community and all the donations and time. And it's fantastic. So please take the time to get out there. Get it on the calendars. Until next time, on behalf of Chairman Bill Gehrig and myself and the Sheboygan County Board, again, thanks for joining us. Next month, we're going to focus a little bit more on the county budget development. And that work has begun to ensue. And that's one of the challenges, certainly, that the county board has. And every department employee has. But we'll touch on that a little bit more. But until then, thank you for joining us.


Felly, mae'n defnyddio i chi wedi'i ei wneud y wneud hynny. Welcom i y ffordd y Gweithreifftrwyddiant Cymru, yn gweithio'r cyfnodd y wneud am gweithreifftrwyddiant Cymru ar y ffordd y lles. Yn James Cow, y co-director yw'r Gweithreifftrwyddiant Cymru, heddiw i Fflynedd London yw Professor Rachel Kerr. It's a great pleasure today to welcome you to help us welcome back. Tiana Stevens. Tiana is an alumna of this parish. She did the ma, I don't remember how long ago, so we won't embarrass anybody with more accurate memories. mae wedi'i gweithio am y gorffordd yn yng Nghymru, a mae'r gweithio i'r gweithio ar y cyfnodio ar y cyfnodio ymlaen. Mae'r gweithio ar gyfer o'r awrachol cyhoedd yn Hesaf, a'r methu a Llywodraeth, a'r methu a Llywodraeth, a'r gweithio ar gyfer o'r gweithio ar y gweithio ar bosnia ac atsegofina. That's become the focus of her work, and it's the focus, obviously, of the talk today. She's been teaching in media and communication at the University of Sydney, but she's finally, after many years of working, also completing her PhD presently in the final stages of the University of Queensland, yng nghymru ond yn ymddi o'r prifael hynodllach o'r mynd i yn ymddi. Ychydig i'r byw yr cyfan yn ei ddweud hynny yno, yn ymddi o'r pethol, a'r mynd i'r mynd i'r mynd i'r pethoedd hynny, yn ymddi o'r mynd i'r mynd i'r mynd i'r pethoedd hynny, yn yr ond i'r byw, i'r siwr. Ymddi o'r byw. Mae argymlu mewn bozniad yn ymddi o'r byw mewn bozniad i'r byw.شر that involves questioning the work in which journalists approach matters, but I think, also, the way in which all of us approach these issues, witnessing what happens to victims and the ways in which maybe victims have perhaps continually continued to be victims. To revisit their experiences in different ways. Tiania, are you ready to go? Dr lighthousell AD I'll look to me for this greatly andhraeol me coldver to Felly mae'n gweithio y cwestiynau a gweithio yng Nghymru yn ysgrifennu yng Nghymru yn ysgrifennu yng Nghymru. Thank you James and Rachel and everyone else for having me back to King's. It's a bit strange for me to be back, to be doing this, but it's an honour to be back in my old stomping ground even though we're on Zoom. It's a shame it's not face to face. I'm going to start this presentation by looking at an image, this image you can see on the screen and then looking at a few of the case studies that a few participants that I interviewed in Bosnia who were in concentration camps. But first of all, I think James has already spelled out my background so I don't need to go into any of that anymore so I'll just get started. So, as James said, I'm currently almost finished about to submit my PhD after quite a long stint of trying to get it completed and changing my focus from reconciliation in Bosnia of concentration camps. Survivors to humanitarian journalism, which was fitted more of my background, and it's been a long journey to get to humanitarian journalism and sort of the ethics of how we actually approach these survivors and how we how we interview. So, yes, so an important part of this thesis looks on my thesis looks at journalistic representations and misrepresentations of male survivors of atrocity. So my journalism back my journalism past so I'm bringing together my journalism past my scholarly training and increasing sensitivity to humanitarian journalism issues. This particular photo was taken this photo here of the coffins and the people surrounding the coffins were taken. It was taken in 2018 in Shrebrinica and now Shrebrinica was where over 8,000 men and boys were rounded up onto buses and taken away and killed and many of them have now been not all of them have been found in mass graves around Bosnia. So this image was taken and it wasn't just the interviews that I did with the men of the male survivors, male wisdom survivors of concentration camps in Bosnia that drove me to humanitarian journalism. It was actually this image that I took it was just a very, you know, obviously not a professional photo when I was there. My focus was not Shrebrinica and I didn't actually want to go. But I was invited to go along and when I got there I found myself in the middle of this commemoration where the bodies were brought from the foot that we found the following year from around Bosnia who were killed in in Shrebrinica. So I found myself there that day and started questioning what these journalists were actually doing, these photographers and all the journalists that were there. And that was my key moment where I knew that I guess my future was in humanitarian journalism, my research was in humanitarian journalism. And I just questioned what the process of this was and and whether or not it was actually ethical to be standing over somebody an old woman that I saw and taking photos and interviewing them over a coffin. So this is one of this is the image that is one of the reasons why humanitarian has come to be my central research focus. And also the tension between the idea and practice of humanitarian journalism and regular event driven, deadline driven, journalist practice. Diania. Yes. Forgive my interrupting. Should we be able to see the image? Yeah, can you not see it? Oh God, I'm so sorry. Sorry, I've got so caught up in everything. I just wanted to. No, that's okay. That's my fault. I can understand what you might not be showing it. That's right. I'm just going to share the screen with you. Sorry. That's my fault there. Can you see that now? Yep. Thank you. Sorry. Absolutely. Apologies. I just was chatting away there. Okay. So let me move this over. I've just got a double screen. Okay. So yeah. So this image is one of the reasons why humanitarian journalism has become my central focus. And again, you can see it's really difficult to see here, but there is a photographer or a cameraman who is actually kneeling over one of the coffins. And sorry, just bear with me. In the red, if you can see the red circle there, he's kneeling over the coffin and there's an old lady that he is interviewing. So this started to make me think about, again, humanitarian journalism and what the issues with humanitarian journalism are. So some observations. Sorry. For some reason, my PowerPoint has just gone a bit funny. Right there we go. So I'll start with some definitions of humanitarian journalism that I found in my research. The first one is Bunscot and Wright. Bunscot and Wright offer a general definition of humanitarian journalism, namely the production and distribution of factual accounts of crises, events and issues relating to human welfare. So I just don't know why. Sorry. Why? There we go. They distinguish two different approaches to this general conception of journalistic activity. There are two. One, humanitarian journalism as a subset of traditional journalism in which one reports factual accounts relating to humanitarian issues. And two, humanitarian journalism as a subset of the tradition of humanitarianism, meaning such journalism aims to alleviate suffering and improve human welfare. The key to the second approach is that of action and intent on the part of the journalist. The intent is to help to ease the suffering of those one reports upon. This is journalism as a tool for direct positive intervention in the world, rather than a mere factual reporting on the state of it. As Bunson colleagues point out, this second approach places humanitarian journalism under the broad umbrella of advocacy journalism that includes movements such as peace journalism and solutions journalism. Journalism that aims to improve to progress social well-being. And then we have Downman and Ubizari, who wrote a book in a published book in 2017 on this topic. So Downman and Ubizari argue that humanitarian journalism for the most part is based on good intentions, but sometimes good intentions don't translate into good practice. While working against a backdrop of diversity, vulnerability and complexity, Downman and Ubizari suggest reporters are burdened with a great responsibility to report fairly and accurately and with care when too often they are untrained in the complexity of humanitarian journalism. They further suggest that the lack of knowledge can have a catastrophic impact on a survivor's well-being and in the worst case can lead to the media inflicting their own trauma on those affected by human rights abuses. As such, humanitarian journalism is not merely a focus on humanitarian issues, but a practice in support of them. Now, Downman and Ubizari, I say that they have an objective view there. There is a focus on human suffering and problems, but they also look at the traditional objective journalism practices. However, in Bunce, we see more of a focus on advocacy, which can be very political and partisan and can become very subjective. It can look really biased and more like political advocacy. Journalists are meant to be objective recorders and reflectors of facts, like a mirror. We reflect back the information. It's problematic not only for journalists but those who are being represented. Consecretly, I have two questions. Consecretly, I have two questions. If, per Bunce, humanitarian journalism draws its practitioners towards a so-called advocacy journalism, does this undermine the credibility of such work as journalism? If we are inclined to consider humanitarian journalism as a good thing, whether we lean towards advocacy journalism or not, still might humanitarian journalism often do more harm than good. My definition, taken from both Downman and Ubizari and Bunce and colleagues, is the pursuit, the production and distribution of factual accounts of crises, events and issues relating to human welfare with the aim of alleviating suffering and improving human welfare. This is my attempt on one hand to retain the objective mirror so that we reflect information while also recognising on the other hand the positive social good that journalism and journalists can do. So to develop the responses to my two key questions, I now turn to the case of Bosnia, the challenge of humanitarian reporting. Journalists bear witness to the horrific acts of which human beings are capable and the remarkable strength we possess in face of such events. Reporting such things is a crucial way that we learn more about both our positive and negative tendencies. Journalism practice possesses an unavoidable ethical dimension in the case of war, disaster and similar issues. This sense is and should be even more pronounced. Journalism practice is ethical, not simply due to its role as a witness to human strength and weakness, but I claim also due to the case with which journalism is capable of inflicting damage on those it represents. This is a difficult issue for journalists to face. So the case of Bosnia. Now some of my, I'm going to look at three case studies in particular. Three men that I interviewed while I was in Bosnia, particularly 2015 and 2017 and 18. And these three case studies have been represented, two have been represented in the press. Both have come to, both of these men have come to feel that the lives have been damaged by this representation. But in the wider journalistic circles, these two representations are often referred to as examples of humanitarian journalism, although this can be problematic. The third participant in my study wants to be represented. He wants his voice heard, but he feels he's ignored. And there's reasons for that which I will go into. So this is an image of, sorry, of Amir. Sorry, I don't know why my PowerPoint apologies has got two screens and they're just back to front. It is an image of Amir that Amir is in the centre. Can you see that, James? Can you see the image of Amir? I just want to check. Clearly. Great. I will note that your title says O masca, but the figure says mania. He was also in O masca. So that's, thank you. No, he was also in a masca as well. But this image particularly was taken in a different camp. Now he, when I interviewed Amir, we were in an organisation sitting there talking and he pulled out an image, this image, and he turned it upside down and he pushed it towards me and said, I can't look at this image. I can't stand to look at this image. This is my past. I don't want anything to do with my past anymore.  It's been an image that's been used numerous, numerous times to reflect atrocities in the camps in Bosnia. So Amir was one person that was wanting to, because he was speaking to me, wanting to be represented, wanting his voice out there, but also at the same time not wanting to discuss his past. The idea of my research was that I would go in and interview these men, but it would be on the terms that if they wanted to talk about their camp experiences, they would. I went in to talk about their future, about their life in Bosnia now. All these men still live in Bosnia. They live in the areas where they were, where the camps are, where they were persecuted, where they were incarcerated. Amir, in particular, was somebody, again, like the next case study, who didn't want to talk about his past, but at the same time, he didn't want people to forget. When I was talking to these men, I made a conscious effort to watch them and listen and not ask. I asked a couple of questions and then I would let them speak. When they were speaking, Amir particularly would grab his legs in pain from where he was trodden on in the camp. He would sleep on some steps and people would walk up and down the steps and just step on him. He had broken ribs, a broken leg, all sorts of injuries. He said to me that he was constantly in pain, not just emotional pain, but the pain from his broken bones. In particular, he looked at me in my eyes, but he would grab at his legs. I acknowledged in my research or in my writing how these men interacted with me. That was Amir. I turned to Fikret. Many of you may be familiar with Fikret. Fikret was the young man who was 22 at the time in 1992, who was photographed by British journalists. Some video footage was taken and then it was turned into images. He was splashed across the Time magazine and a number of other publications without his knowledge. Fikret, I interviewed Fikret as well. He made it very clear to me that this image saved a lot of lives, but he would always regret the image. He has never been able to escape the concentration camps. He still says he's incarcerated. The media is at his door constantly. They won't leave him alone. The image next to this one was taken 15 years after. It was an anniversary photo taken by the Sun newspaper in the UK of him posing outside in exactly the same position. No shirt on with jeans and a belt, but he was holding a shirt with the building behind. They took this image thinking that it was an anniversary story and that it would bring awareness to his story. However, Fikret said to me, he feels obligated to the press. Obligated is the word that Fikret uses to describe the relationship with the news media. As long as the world is the way it is with torture and war, the picture will always be with me. As long as there is hate and hell in the world, I will love that photo because it is a sign of what people go through. But as long as there is hell, that picture will haunt me. This is some of the damage that the media can inflict on survivors when they continuously go back. I'm going to be talking about some points of discussion that I've come up with to avoid this. Then we have Shrekky, who was in Cooler Camp. He said, I start feeling anxiety the moment I start thinking about the camps in my life now. To be accepted as a citizen, a normal citizen of the town where I was born. I had the feeling that I returned as a citizen of a lower order, lower class. Nothing is the same. It is not how I imagined it. Shrekky was in Cooler Camp just outside of Sarajevo. He spent a lot longer in this camp than some of the other camps that were set up. When I met him in 2015, he walked into the organisation where I was interviewing some of these men from Cooler Camp. He walked in with a loaf of bread. He said, that's all he lives on a day. He lives on half a loaf of bread. Nobody recognises the suffering that he went through in Cooler Camp. This was one survivor who was raped in the camp. He was homeless when I met him. He was staying at a friend's house just temporarily to look after it. All he would be able to do was to go to a soup kitchen. They would give him half a loaf of bread instead of a couple of pieces of bread. He said to me that nobody cares about him. He was deported from America for beating up somebody. He was deported back to Bosnia and he's just been left to his own devices. It's no money, no support except from the organisation. Again, they are also struggling. He said that at the end of our interview, he said, will you come back? Will you help me? Will I see you again? This again started raising questions about journalism and advocacy and whether or not we should step in and help. I returned back in 2018 to interview Shrekhi and he has disappeared. He is no longer, nobody, they no longer know where he is. So my key findings. Journalists are too often constrained by their and their industry is concerned for what is dramatic, spectacular, and to use the vernacular of the industry itself sexy. The obvious objection to such a focus is that it risks a slide towards the sensational. The more important point, however, is that a focus on the spectacular risks. In fact, I would suggest brings about a lack of concern for even an ignoring of the, you know, the mundane and the undramatic, but still wholly important and newsworthy problems of human beings. Lessons from the study may be helpful in a wider field of humanitarian reporting. However, only if reporters observe and are receptive to responses from participants. Humanitarian journalism requires the use of alternative interviewing practices, not normally associated with journalism, but to listen, observe and pick up on nuances and distress to go slowly. So it's important to note that the relationship between ill health and witnessing, which I was saying with people like Fikret and Amir and Shrekie, they are all ill. They all depend on medication. There was a case study that I did a person, a man that I interviewed who was in Luca camp from Boricco, and he I was sitting in his lounge room interviewing him. He was in charge of the camp organisation where I was, and I was sitting there, and I was observing what was going on around me and observing what he was doing. And I counted 50 boxes of medication. They were overflowing from a chest of drawers. They were on the floor. They were just everywhere, at least 50 boxes of medications. So there is a relationship between ill health and witnessing or talking to the media. Many participants insisted on giving testimony, despite knowing that the outcome of telling their stories could lead to further agitation and disquiet. Some participants said that they would have to take medication to help alleviate the foreboding that something bad could happen after giving testimony. Others were reluctant to talk. Many described their struggle to get through a day without medication. They smoked heavily to help damp down anxiety. All who spoke to me said that doing so could exaggerate their physical and mental health problems. What came through during each of my interviews was my participants desire to ensure people did not forget the horrors they suffered and the struggles that they faced today. All participants insisted that their stories be told, regardless of the individual health concerns which may have been aggravated by their witnessing. The journalists must grasp those who wish to witness are usually harmed by that witnessing insofar as it hurts them to do it. This harm cannot be avoided. What can be avoided is any unnecessary harm the journalist's representation of these witnesses may cause. My suggestions for future humanitarian journalism practice. I return back to the two questions that I originally posed. If Per Bunce humanitarian journalism draws its practitioners towards so-called advocacy journalism, does this undermine the credibility of such work as journalism? If we are inclined to consider humanitarian journalism as a good thing, whether we lean towards advocacy journalism or not, still might humanitarian journalism often do more harm than good. Sorry. It's just a bit of a weird thing with my Zoom. If Per Bunce humanitarian journalism draws its practitioners towards so-called advocacy journalism, does this undermine the credibility of such work as journalism? Potentially, but not necessarily. In my view, humanitarian journalism is unavoidably liable to creep towards the subjective advocacy approach. However, being aware of this tendency is one way to avoid falling victim to it. Such awareness is partially provided by training. Yet there is also a degree of personal and professional honesty required in order not just to practice humanitarian journalism, but to do so while keeping one's practice on the proper side of the journalism advocacy divide. Journalism is not and should never degenerate into becoming merely the mouthpiece of this or that political or ideological stance. The human aspect of the humanitarian approach clashes directly with the traditional view of the journalist as some form of mirror of society. Yet perhaps the mirror model of journalism has always been problematic. We are never wholly impartial. So again, this is my attempt on one hand to retain the objective mirror of Bunce while also recognising on the other hand the positive social good that journalism and journalists can do. If we are inclined to consider humanitarian journalism as a good thing for question two, whether we lean towards advocacy journalism or not, still much humanitarian journalism often do more harm than good. Journalism rules of conduct can only take journalists so far. They are crucial guides, but ultimately the craft of journalism in the field is immediate and is immediate. The journalist is time and time again required to make a decision whether or not to intrude into the pain or privacy of his or her subjects. This is a judgment that must be unique to each situation as to when an action amounts to an intrusion and when it does not. This highlights how vital it is the ethical and professional training given to journalists is also underscores the fact that sometimes one just is too inexperienced to handle the situation in an ethically sound manner. However, even when one is experienced, there is always a risk of such reportage. So understanding the needs of those who have experienced a trauma of mass violence is fraught with difficulty. Humanitarian journalists are in a complex position, perhaps foremost in these situations is the extreme and hence almost incomprehensible so nature of the experience itself. How can the journalists understand to paraphrase one of the participants of the present study, the true nature of life in a concentration camp can only fully be understood by those who have lived behind the wire of such a place. With this in mind, journalists of every kind. Sorry, not only the humanitarian have not only a professional but fundamentally an ethical obligation to avoid the re traumatising of their subjects. Thank you very much. That's my presentation. Thank you so much Tania. That is such an interesting reflection. Thank you. I'm so sorry that the PowerPoint was just for some reason was off like I'd have one and then something else so. It's fine. We got there. I don't know if you want to leave it up. I suggest you take it down unless you have a particular reason to keep it shared. I'm just. Yeah, okay. Yeah, that was such a fascinating reflection. I don't resist commenting that when you're an MA student there are issues around ethics that came up in terms of your dissertation, as you fully aware. So it's very interesting to see the trajectory over a number of years. Now, we're going to take questions from everybody who's with us who wants to raise a question. If you want to ask a question or to indeed to offer a comment and further reflection on on any of these issues. You can do that in two ways. One is, we're going to be open to people orally contributing their questions if you want to do that, then please raise the little yellow hand to indicate that you want to do that. But put in the chat as well that you want to do it. If you don't want to give the question orally. Then you can just put it in chat and my colleague Rachel, once we've lost Tania. I hope she'll be back. Rachel will be picking questions out from the chat to relay. So if for some reason you don't want to to to speak or you can't go to your situation, then we'll do that. But so I hope that's clear. You're back. We lost you. Anyway, so I'll repeat for you. I was just giving instructions that if people want to ask a question orally they can. They should do that by signaling with the little yellow hand, or putting a message into the chat that they wish to do that. So if anybody doesn't want to speak, who wants to raise a question, either comment, then put that into the chat and Rachel will pick it up and relay it to us. Before any of that, I'm going to, to set things going with further discussion and reflection. What strikes me is this idea you use the Buns et al definition and what struck me in that is the is the use of the word welfare, because welfare automatically in some way becomes a term of that's loaded. However we understand welfare clearly meant to be a positive attribute. So on humanitarian issues, or whether the focus is advocacy, it's that issue of welfare. And I'm wondering what kind of issues and problems that really creates if we go on further to think about that. And obviously that runs through the whole of your presentation. A journalist ethics where there are so many difficult and interesting dimensions, and this issue again of focus or advocacy. I wondered on a couple of counts that the way this links to other people's work and activity. And I think in particularly of the first of the issue of witnessing, because what all of this about really is witnessing as you use that word. And I wonder how you, if you've got any thoughts on the way that some journalists such as edw Llemi, whom you mentioned, Martin Bell, Anna Van Linden were prepared as journalists to go to be eyewitnesses. Well, well, I'm going, I'm rolling. So just wait a moment, gathering all in. I think, um, like Tania. I haven't finished. Let me finish. Sorry, sorry. Yeah. And in that concert, you know, so it's about being witnessing and contrasting that with the so-called journalistic ethics of most Americans, including David Roadie, who refused to give evidence in court because it's against this code of journalistic ethics, and this is people like Michael Nicholson, and another journalist who I won't name, but Michael Nicholson because of Natasha's story as a public account of taking a child back, helping one victim. So it's going, I mean, in all of this, there's the issue of to what extent is there a responsibility, but also to what extent do people become victims and I'm very conscious that some of those I'm aware who gave evidence as journalists in a sense became victims by entering in that process. And that links to the idea of witnesses. You mentioned Fikrit Arlieg and the whole idea of witnesses at the ICTY. And there's a very difficult set of questions about people going to give evidence, victim witnesses in one way or another, who become witness, who become victims all over again by the experience of giving testimony. And I was struck by two things in your account of Fikrit Arlieg on that. One is that the obligation, the mission, the duty, and I think that runs through perhaps whether or not you were the person in that moment in that photograph, but the sense of duty. The same applies to people who experienced the Holocaust who went through Auschwitz with no photographs perhaps. And I think beyond this, we also got this idea of witnessing being about facts, facts being a difficult matter, but facts for journalists, facts for historians and academics, researchers and facts in trials. All the issue, all the issues of witnessing, presenting a whole range of big questions. And just finally before we open up to other people, and I know that questions are coming in in the Q&A chat. I just wanted to raise, yeah, I know in your writing, you didn't mention it now, but you quote Anthony Lloyd and the idea of day tripping. And I think in all of this in the idea of witnessing and ideas, you know, whether as journalists or academics, researchers, and indeed those involved in prosecutions of trials, the sense to which, yeah, this is something those from outside can always leave behind, those who are there, those who are the witnesses, are burdened by it. And I know in the case of victim witnesses or even witnesses at the ICTY, there's an absence of support, the kind of things you were mentioning in terms of going back to journalists. I don't know if we want to go to the other questions that have been raised so far, Rachel, but I've a feeling Tiana wants to come back to me already, but I think we should get as many questions in as we can, while we have time. Why don't we gather in one more, that somebody's raised their hands, I've got a few raised hands and I've got lots of questions coming in in the chat, some really great questions, so be great if we can get to lots of them. Many of you can and Tiana can deal with as much of it as she can in the time left. Yeah, why don't we gather in, let's gather in two more and then we'll go back to Tiana here and then we'll take another round after that. The first one is from G Leslie. Do you want to put your mic on and ask your question? Thank you. Okay. I was wondering how on earth you can avoid retraining, sorry, retraumatising interviewees in the course of revisiting events. What could one go about that without doing that? Do you think perhaps that people who engage in humanitarian journalism should undergo specific training so that they're in a position to be able to be more empathetic? What should that be something which has gone into? How can you judge those who feel can be interviewed without it causing them grievous mental trauma? Is that something which you have to be mindful of? And do you feel that it's important that there shouldn't be a re-visiting of, so a re-contacting of those who have previously been contacted regarding that person who was forever being photographed so that perhaps there should be an agreement that that person, once they have taken part, will not again be contacted or will not be re-interviewed unless they give their expressed permission, whether or not as it were feeding hounded and retraumatised or whatever again. Do you think all these things need to be taken into consideration? Okay. Thank you. Quite a lot there. So Tiana, should we go back to you and you can respond and then we'll gather the rest? Absolutely. I think it was a really strong question, lots of little questions in there. I think particularly from, I'm just trying to remember everything you said, but from like I think what James said about from when I did my MA in war studies and then went as like as a journalist to academic to PhD, like I really struggled with the idea of re-traumatisation and the ethics of these interviews of going back and this is what I discuss in my thesis and I also talk about it in a chap that I had published, I think James referred to it, that there isn't a perfect solution and there are going to be times where we do re-traumatise people. But if we don't talk to people and we don't return sometimes to them to get their stories then we would never know what they've been through. We would never know history, what the history is of their suffering, of the camps, of I think with the Holocaust in particular like people didn't really start talking for a number of years afterwards. By that stage, people are getting older and everything so we need to record history. We have to do that and to do that we need to speak to survivors of mass violence. That's an absolute given but I've learnt through my research that there are ways of doing it. Training is a good thing but not all organisations, media organisations are going to implement training in ethics. Ethics for me because I teach ethics at the university, media law and ethics at university of Sydney and what I even struggle with that because we learn how the students learn about the philosophy of ethics and how to make decisions. I think training really needs to come in university. This is sort of just off the cuff like just thinking outside the box needs to come initially bringing in examples on the ground. Case studies like really showing them not just about the philosophy of ethics like Aristotle or Kant or Mill. We need to engage our students and then junior journalists as well in what actually happens on the ground in these places and to talk them through being mindful of retraumatisation, maybe some skills that to pick up on nuances, to pick up on things that I was doing in my research. Pick up on how they're reacting to to your questions and things like that. You know, this was the same with like with Fikret Alec in particular. He would not look at me. He would not have eye contact with me at all for the whole entire interview that I did with him. But at the end, the last question that I asked him as we were walking out was how are you. And those three words changed everything. It's about sympathising with them, not making any promises, but watching and listening, and it's as simple as that. It's about watching and observing and listening and just being mindful, but training absolutely. And I think that's another project I'm in talks with to talk to news organisations to find out what they do with ethics and things like that because I certainly didn't have it. And in response to James, I suspect that people like Anthony Lloyd, Michael Nicholson, and Ed Valomet also didn't have training in ethics either. We have to go on our own instincts and be. And again, as James mentioned, you know, I've been on a journey, an ethical journey, and I've seen my mistakes and I've been able to work them into my research and actually turn this around. I don't know if that answers your question. Do you think it should go as far as having actual role play mock interviewing of this kind of situation that people will be finding themselves in so that they can be aware of reactions, rather than just being textbook. So actually do it as it were for real or as real as it can be. I mean, if we could do that, that would be absolutely wonderful, but a lot of news organisations wouldn't pay for that. So we are left to our own devices to make sure that we are being ethical, that we are. And again, these simple points, observe and listen, because when you observe these participants, when you observe the people you're interviewing, you know when you're going to retraumatise when something is not right. An exact example, a case study of that, a case in, I was interviewing from Cooley camp that about 20 minutes in, he kept saying to my interpreter, is she finished, is she finished, is she finished. And I had to make a decision then, because I knew at that point that there was something wrong and I ended the interview and I haven't used him in my case studies, because he said to me, he said, I'm only here because I was told to be here by the organisation by the camp organisation, and I ended it. There's a lot to do with, and Anthony Lloyd particularly in my work, that when I write about him, he has a case where he is in, he's a junior journal, actually he's a freelance journalist, only fresh in Bosnia his first. He doesn't even have an organisation backing him, he's just there. Mort around goes off. He's up in that he's in the, where he's staying in an apartment. He looks down out of the apartment and he hears this wailing screeching of a mother who is holding her daughter of a woman that Anthony Lloyd got to know. He goes, he goes running down. This girl is dead. He has to make a decision at that point people are saying take a photo, take a photo, take the image. And he decides at that moment not to take it. It's a really powerful story. He decides at that point not to take this image of this mother wailing with holding her daughter. And instead he steps away and he walks around Sarajevo for the first time. He sees the city. He wakes up to the fact that he is a journalist and that's what he's there for. And now when I spoke to him I think at the end 2018. He said to me that he regrets not taking the image because he's a journalist and that's his job so he's gone from sort of not wanting to take it to to regretting not taking it so we go through all these changes as a journalist so I'm conscious of time so. Yes, we rapidly losing time. I think Rachel has one or two more oral questions lined up, and we'll take those and then we'll go through a run through the ones that have been written into the chat, but I will point out my mistake earlier I said to people to signal in the chat. So if anybody's tried the chat and failed, do what those with more initiative have already done and go to the Q&A and pursue mine. Rachel. Thank you. I'm going to resist the temptation to comment on such an interesting talk. Thank you to you. So we'll go to Eric Cabandawa and then Andreas Muller who both have hands up so Eric first and then Andreas, and then I'm going to round up the questions in the chat and then we'll circle back to you to answer them all together if that's all right. So Eric, do you want to go ahead. Thank you for the interesting topic. I've got two questions. The first question is on the the viability of humanitarian journalism, because over the years we've seen even the biggest humanitarian news organizations that have exclusively over the years, have been created for humanitarian, humanitarian reporting such as the the IPS news hiring Thompson Thompson Reuters, a whole shrinking and because of lack of viability for their business models, and, and because the mainstream media do not have access to reporting humanitarian news. For the reason that you mentioned that they, they don't have commensured political interest. What model, if any, you would suggest that humanitarian news organizations can use to to stay afloat and keep doing the good work that they are doing. And lastly briefly, the question about the ethics that you, the question of ethics that you talked about when you in the field as a journalist. I remember the story of the voucher and the ritual girl. That actually sparked a lot of, of a contrast in the past, where a photojournalist went into the field, and so a voucher trying to voucher trying to eat a small girl. So the question was, should I take this picture, or should I not take it and rescue the girl. Of course he ended up taking the picture of the girl. It attracted a lot of support, you know, humanitarian support to help the suffering people. But I just wanted to take you back. I know you touched on that question. That dilemma seems to have no definite answer on what, what exactly the role of a journalist when a dilemma like that, you know, faces them. I would like to bring your perspective into experiences on that question as well. Thank you. Thank you very much. So Andreas, do you want to ask your question next? Hi. Yes, thank you. Thank you, Tiani. That's really fascinating. So two really quick questions. First one, when thinking about humanitarian journalism potentially doing more harm than good, something you mentioned towards the end. Is there a way of measuring a piece of humanitarian journalism's overall net impact in some way? And how might we think about that part of, you know, it's really interesting idea you mentioned. I'm just curious about that. And very quickly secondly, probably controversial, maybe just a flat out no, but do or should journalists or news agencies bear some sort of legal responsibility for the potential longer term impact of their work on individual subjects whose traumatic personal experience are being in some ways exploited for a kind of wider, you know, beneficial purpose perhaps. Thank you. It's all right. OK. That question is also asked elsewhere, isn't it Rachel? Yes, there are questions in the Q&A as well. So if you don't mind, Tiana, I'm going to round up a couple of those two and then come back to you. That's all right. You can answer as much as you can manage in the remaining time. So one question was how you reconcile, how do you reconcile going slowly through humanitarian journalism with the pressure to report immediately to the public? And I think that links to another question about the aim of humanitarian journalism and the question we just had to. Is it about giving a voice to the person who suffers or suffered? Or is it to raise awareness and maybe provide some help to those people in crisis? And on the topic of health, of help, sorry, there's the question, this may go beyond the scope of your research, but do you think there's a moral obligation for news and journalism outlets, the profit of stories of individuals in these circumstances to give them a portion of the proceeds? So it's kind of who benefits from all of this as well, which I think is a really interesting question when you think about individuals too. So the question two from Patrick Lee, Patrick asks, thank you, thank you so much, Stephen, that was really insightful. When you are conducting interviews with vulnerable persons or NGOs, do you allow the person you're interviewing to review the article paper prior to publication? Or does that jeopardise the integrity of the paper? I think I'll leave it there, but that one takes us back to this issue, I think, around ethics, but also I think the crossover and the things that we can learn as academics from this discussion around humanitarian journalism and what we're doing as researchers too, there seems to be quite a lot of crossover between. On that, there was a last question as well, which is about the frame of humanitarian journalist against wider issues, such as privacy, public interest, criminal justice, protection, treatment of witnesses and victims as well. So we can throw that one in, that was from Martin Silcock. Thank you, so I'd missed that. Well it fitted with what you were saying, so I have to bring it in to be sure. I'll go back to you. Okay, we have six minutes for you to. Okay, the first sort of question to do with taking photos in the field, I think it was, like a humanitarian model for organisations. Was that the first one? I think it was, wasn't it? Yeah. So, again, humanitarian journalism is very new. It's, there's not that many of us looking at this, and to be honest, I fell into this by accident. Ethics again, but I've said, wasn't my strong point, you know, in a sense like working as a journalist and then I, and as James would know, really struggled with, you know, sort of academia and ethics and ethical approvals and things like that. I think it's a very new field, and this is something we're working on at the moment looking towards like some sort of model that, and there isn't anything. This is a problem, there's lots of definitions out there. There's lots of, like you can look at peace journalism, which is different, and there's a lot more on that, more advocacy journalism, but humanitarian journalism is very new, like maybe in the last eight, nine years. You know, on my hand, I can count number of academics, pretty much that I know of, you know, that that I've been using in my research that there is just isn't that many, but in regards to a humanitarian model, keep, you know, stay tuned, because that is something that we are actually looking at. Taking photos in the field. I remember exactly what that was about me, I think my, my role in the field and going back to Iraq and Afghanistan and Bosnia particularly. It's difficult, and I feel for Anthony Lloyd, because when you're in the heat of the moment, you know that as a journalist you have an instinct you are born with something in you went, you know, as a journalist, and you just do it. There's not a lot of thinking, and so I'm not convinced that training would have an impact, because when you are in the heat of the moment, you just get the story.  I'm not quite sure about that one. I think it was the balance of harm and good being done through humanitarian. Is there a way of calculating the net outcome in terms of again humanitarian journalism is new. There isn't any kind of structure out there or anything at the moment and again we're working on this. And I'm hoping now I'm writing to fully into this now like this is my this is my field and so these ideas actually that you've given me through these questions are things that I will consider and look to but there is there is no measuring of the net impact of humanitarian journalism and how it actually works but that's a good research idea. The journalism news agencies legal responsibilities for journalists. Sorry. And moral responsibility. Okay, so when when we're in the field, there is a obviously a legal responsibility of the organization that you work for. And there is a responsibility of the journalist as well to to act ethically, but I guess again with humanitarian journalism particularly there's no guidelines there's nothing this again very new. Legal responsibility to make sure that we don't you know we don't bribe we don't bribe anyone we don't do anything that is you know legally reprehensible. You know anything that we wouldn't do in our own country we wouldn't do in somebody else's country with that with their interviewing them. Sorry, I'm just aware of the time. Reconciling going slowly. Well I think with you know with digital journalism now you find a lot of organizations actually have long form journalism and then you can flick through the stories and it's absolutely beautiful because you can. You can see part of the story and there's images and you flick through. And I actually think there is still a market for for slow journalism for stories. For me particularly I think it was like 1989 when I first sort of starting out and there was a story in the mirror newspaper and on the front there was a picture of a young child in Ethiopia or somewhere around the world and it was Anton Antonovich was the journalist and I still remember because it's such an impact on me, and it said on there in it by the time you turn this page. This child will be dead. And you turn the page and it's in it tells you and I still have that copy of that newspaper. And that had such an impact on me that for me slow journalism, long form journalism where you can give a voice to these people to to these victim or to these survivors, so that they have an opportunity to say more than just the story or the story of thick red, you know, another image behind the wire like 10 years later. Voice awareness and help journalists are naturally curious they will, you know, we are still human beings at the end of the day even though people don't always view us as that we, you know, when we see somebody that is hurting somebody that is in pain somebody starving, our natural instincts is to help to want to help. But again, the question I guess I've been asking is, does it do more harm than good. And sometimes it does like I've been asked for money before to to get interviews with people like organizations have asked me for money and I've had to make these ethical decisions either to walk away, or to hand over money and and you know, most of the time, I am on the ethical side and I don't do anything. But to get somebody's voice out, sometimes you need to do things that are slightly unethical, if that makes sense. You know, and then also moral obligation to give proceeds. It's very difficult to do that because most of the time you go in you interview somebody and you leave. And even if you're going back. It is, it can be very unethical and very damaging to promise most journalists go in, get to know these people interview them and leave and they never see them again. And a lot of the times I had participants saying to me men saying to me, when are you coming back will I see you again because people make promises, and it traumatizes them. So to then give proceeds. I just don't think that would be an ethical thing to do. Review prior publications, review prior prior publications. I don't know what that question was. Did you ask the interviewees to review what you've written? Oh yeah, absolutely. Not all the time, because obviously with language differences and things like that. There is somebody that hopefully I think she's here today, but yes, sometimes I do depending on what it is and knowing that there could be damage caused by. If I have an image or something like that. And so I do speak to them about it and I get their opinions and their thoughts about whether or not they want their names and things like that. Everything is anonymous. So none of my participants have their names or any identifying features. Humanitarian journalism against the wider justice system privacy. Again, like I was just saying, all of my participants are there is nothing that would identify them in my research at all. I make sure everything is taken out and again I have to go through ethical things, but with journalism, it's very different and we do see cases where people's identities are given out by accident and things like that. But with humanitarian journalism in particular, we are meant to be humanitarian. So we are meant to be making sure that we don't harm them. So the idea is that privacy should be should be a priority for us. And if they say they don't want to talk or they don't want to go ahead with an interview. For instance, I, and just my last point, Kasun Ubizari actually, one of the academics that I mentioned, we are working on a project at the moment looking at or just starting a project looking at refugees, talking to refugees, Bosnian refugees in Australia as an initial project, talking to them about how the media represents them, how, how they, but not how we think they're represented, but how they are represented, how they feel represented, what is it that they need to be represented. So we're sort of working on this project at the moment about turning humanitarian journalism around as such and getting the survivors to talk about their experiences. But anyway, sorry, I'm just going on. So I think we're over time. We're a wee bit over time, but it's been, been worth it. And though some of us already have other. Apologies if I didn't answer those questions properly, I just ran through them. My fault. I'm managing things. I take full responsibility. And that includes for taking things on for another minute or so. I wanted to point out that while you were speaking, indeed, after we were already past time, I think, David Pettigrew, you might know not, but I clearly asked one of the anonymous questions earlier, but now is revealed as David Pettigrew. Quick follow up to my question, which is just a comment, so no response needed. But to point out that the survivors feel the need to return to Omarska every year. They go to the commemoration in August. And that's because of the issue of memorialisation in particular, because as I'm sure you're aware, there's no more. And I think so this is all about the sense of duty, the mission, victims and of others to make sure that there's a focus. And that sense of the events and the things that happened is not lost. Tiania, you demonstrated a wonderful tour de force in navigating ethical questions. When you in that final round of answers made a comment about doing something that may be a bit unethical, I would say it's not unethical in the slightest. But we have to understand ethics is this 5000 year long tradition of negotiating complex patterns of wrong and right. And it's that negotiation and getting to the point of knowing what's right, which sometimes may mean doing something very difficult that in a normal situation you would say absolutely not. But it comes right once you balance the elements in the context. And I think that idea of a developed sense of ethics is something that really needs to be more widely discussed and explored because we tend to many of us to approach these issues in quite black and white or simplistic ways. You for a great talk, your focus is journalism, but what comes across to me is that this is all about witnessing, and journalism is one form in which witnessing takes place, but ethics and witnessing stemming from this have a number of varieties and it gives a lot of material for all of us to consider to reflect and to think about as we're going to head. So with all of that, thank you very, very much for coming back to us. It's lovely to have an alumna back in the fold, such an excellent talk. And of course we know for you, it's after 10 in the evening. I hope you had your supper beforehand. But now you can go and relax and get on. Maybe some people here will have time to grab a bit of lunch. But whatever it is, we thank everybody for attending and we thank you for an excellent presentation. It's been really, really engaging and interesting. Thank you so much. Thank you everyone. So thank you everybody else. Goodbye and we'll see you when the next round of seminars begins. So if anyone wants to email me with a question or something, please do because obviously I did rush through. If I missed something, I'm quite happy to get emails. Thanks very much. Bye. And thanks to Rachel of course for helping out on the questions and to Danny, but the schools to security studies for managing the operation. Goodbye everybody and we'll see you the next time. And Rachel, you can email me as well. Thanks. See you later.


Are you guys, I recently made McCalls 8213 and I want to show you how it turned out in case you want to make one too. I cannot wait to tell you all about it, but real quick, if you're new here, hi, I'm Lindsay, I sew all my own clothes, and I'm so glad you found me. Be sure to introduce yourself in the comments so that I can give you a formal welcome. And for everyone watching, if you like seeing things that I've made, be sure to check out this playlist. It has dozens of videos just like this one, so you can be inspired for your next project. Check out the link in the top right corner of your screen. It opens in a new tab, so you won't lose your place here. Okay, let's get into this dress. This pattern is a pullover style dress with elastic at the back and tie strap option. There are also hem options, including a ruffle and tears. Initially, I love the straight neckline, wide straps and simplicity of it all. I don't know about you, but my summer makes are all about staying cool and comfortable and this design fit the bill. For my version, I made UC exactly as drafted. It was super simple to construct, even with all those gathers for the tears. The fabric I use is actually a thrifted waverly curtain that I got from Goodwill. I was drawn to the colors and the big floral print. And as with every time I use a curtain to make a garment, I just hope for the best that it doesn't actually look like a curtain once I cut it up. Did you think that to yourself when you first saw it, be honest? The fabric is 100% cotton and woven with just a little bit of texture in it, so it had the weight I wanted for the tears, but still had enough drape that they wouldn't stick out too much. I mean, curtains are called drapery for a reason, right? This is a very, very simple garment to fit. There is so much ease throughout that the only measurement you really need to concern yourself with is the high bust. But even that has a little room for error since the back is elasticized. If you want to learn more about how I pick my size for every garment I sew, check out my Fast Fit Worksheet. It's a method I developed after years of trying to make heads or tails of pattern sizing. With this method, my projects fit better the first time without requiring many alterations. The worksheet comes with an instructional video as well, so you'll have me to guide you through the process. I do have one gripe about this dress design though, and that is with the straps. As you can see, they tend to sit at the very edge of my shoulder, and with lots of movement they just fall off. My best guess is that the designers thought that the elastic in the back would pull them in closer to the center, anchoring them on the shoulder, but that's just not what's happening. If I make this dress again, I would move the straps closer to the center on the back, almost making more of a subtle V-shape with them. It's a super simple alteration, and it would make wearing this dress 100% the most comfortable thing I own. So that's the good, bad, and ugly, or not so ugly, of McCall's 8213. What do you guys think? How did I do? I've got a ton of links in the description box, including the link to purchase this dress pattern from Something Delightful. I've also linked to my most recent pattern review for the Rosaria Peril Shirt Dress. So if you haven't seen that video yet, click on the bottom right of your screen and it will take you right there. But that's going to do it for me today, y'all. Thank you so much for watching. I will see you all very soon. Bye!