One of the most oftenly asked questions that I see newer to Linux users ask Especially as they grow as a Linux user and they become a little more knowledgeable about the command line about terminal Applications, they start wondering why they really need to use terminal applications rather than GUI applications graphical applications Why for example, would you rather use a terminal for your file management stuff? You know to search through directories and move things copy things delete things Why would you want to do that at the terminal rather than just using a graphical file manager? And of course, that's just one example You you could practically do everything that you do on a computer at the command line inside a terminal if you so choose But why would you want to do that? Well, there are many cases Where it's advantageous to actually use the terminal rather than a graphical GUI application I'm going to discuss a little of the reasons why and why We have kind of this divide where it seems like newer to Linux users really resist the terminal All right, they don't want anything to do with it. It's strange. It's foreign. It's alien I don't I can't handle it right. Don't don't show me a terminal where once you get more Intermediate to advanced users they often spend most or even all of their time in the terminal at the command line And sometimes it seems like they're just doing this to be elitist to feel superior But that's not actually the case. There are actually real reasons why The more you learn about Linux the more time you're going to spend in a terminal and the reason I'm making this video is because I think nobody has Really answered this question properly. It's kind of like the emacs videos I do, you know, I've made a lot of emacs content in the last couple of years because I think emacs is a Fantastic program. It has real-world advantages for those that want to take advantage of something like emacs but the problem is Most people don't explain the advantages of emacs properly. They don't break it down. They don't do, uh, you know Eli5, you know explain it like I'm five years old kind of thing when people talk about emacs They often talk way above people's heads and that's often the case with this kind of argument too Why use a terminal rather than a GUI application is usually when, you know The more advanced users start talking about things they can do with the terminal and the command line It just goes way over people's heads. So today, I just feel like I have I Have a style of presenting stuff to people where I can really break it down and bring it down to to your level Especially if you're a newer to Linux user. So that's what I'm going to do today the first thing I want to talk about is command line interface tools versus GUI applications So if I switch over to my desktop, let's talk about file management since I brought it up Let me open a terminal and let's say that I want to LS You know get a listing of everything in my home directory Which we're currently in by default the terminal will open up in your user's home directory If I want to CD into a different directory I could CD into the downloads directory do a LS there to see what is in my downloads directory I could CD back into the home directory I could CD and a slash Etsy if I needed to go into slash Etsy for some reason I could do it LS there if I wanted to take a look at one of these config files Maybe I wanted to take a look at my SDDM Comp SDDM as my walk-in manager You know I could change some stuff here and then once I'm done I know I could quit out of the the editor here I opened this with them here in this case. I wanted to copy this file I could copy the SDDM.comp over to I don't know I mean I guess I could put it in home slash downloads and now if I CD into Home slash downloads do a LS. I should have SDDM.com somewhere there and I do So I can move around looking directories copies files edit files move files delete files and all of that was rather easy right that didn't look like I was struggling and Really navigating the file system that was rather fast and pippy right now I've done this a lot right is one of those things you get used to it But I can move around pretty fast now if I had my graphical file manager open So let me open PC man FM, which is my GUI file manager I mean I could navigate with the mouse I could grab the the bar here and then take a look at everything and then what did I CD into? I CD into downloads. I could take a look at that if I wanted to I could go to the field up here and Etsy I wanted to take a look at that and then I could find that same file that I wanted to edit the SDDM.com at right click open with whatever editor I want to open it with maybe I want to open it with them again like I did before make the changes quit out of it I mean I can do all of the same task, but here's the thing the graphical application is Essentially a front-end to the command line for example when I type, you know slash home Well slash home slash DT here, you know all of that all that is doing is it's running a command-lined Command it's running CD Slash home slash DT exactly like I did in the terminal This is just a graphical way of doing that right when I click on this Downloads folder here. All I'm doing when I click that is in the background. It's actually running CD Slash home slash downloads. That's that's all that's doing if I click on the home folder CD into the home folder If I move a file around right if I just grab a file, you know Maybe I want to grab my bash RC or something you know, I could do a control C to copy I can go back into downloads control V to paste. There's that bash RC all that did was that was a Copy command at the command line CP the copy command copy home slash Dot bash RC over to download slash dot bash RC, you know, the same commands many people think Especially newer to Linux users people that don't do a lot of scripting or programming And they imagine that GUI applications are completely different than command line applications That's actually not the case all the GUI application is is There are representation of the command line tools So the buttons and sliders and widgets and the folders and the image anything that you click on and there's some kind of action associated with that that action is actually running a Command line tool right it's actually doing a copy a move or remove You know, it's when you open up your graphical update manager You know your software center and you do an update and you click update right the button that says update your system Right all of that's that's doing is if you're on a boon to it's doing a sudo apt Update and and sudo apt upgrade, you know the same as you would do at the command line It's just it has a button you click to run that same command But in the background it's actually running the actual command now that I've told you that you know these GUI Applications are essentially front-ends to various commands at the command line right then naturally you have more command line Tools available for you than GUI tools right the GUI applications are very limited because they can't possibly Graphically represent everything that is possible at the command line. It's just impossible right It's just way too deep and complicated where the command line you have literally every single command at your disposal Right because the command line can run Every single command that's available on your system where a GUI application obviously it can't do that for example We just saw me playing around with file management in the terminal and with my GUI file manager PC man fm But there were some things I could do at the command line. I mean, let me zoom in here For example the GUI it lists your files if I can spell LS correctly if I wanted to sort them in a certain way I mean I could do a sort here. I could also a shuffle around the various files I can grab a random file I could do a lot of really cool stuff and certainly the more advanced stuff like grip said AUK is not going to be available. For example, maybe, you know, I do something like a let's cat slash Etsy slash Pass WD, right? So this is a file on my system that lists all the users on my system And their home directories what groups they belong to their user ID yada yada yada Well, you know with the command line the world is my oyster any command that I want to run I can manipulate this data in any way. I see fit where yeah I just simply can't do that with a GUI tool because it's not going to include every single command and every single flag for those commands Built into it. It would just be way too complicated. You can't really build a GUI tool that way, right? Where the command line is designed to give you ultimate power if you will so I could pipe this through AUK and I could do Something like this where I AUK and I specified that the colon is the field separator because in this particular file Colons separate every single field and I want to print the first and third fields in this case And there you go And it looks like the first field is the name of the user and the third field is the ID And of course, we don't have any kind of space or anything between that. I probably should have specified Specified adding a space between that but that is how that works if I wanted the last field I could do dollar sign NF or the last field and you can see there is that I've done plenty of videos In the past on command line applications like a grep said AUK cut Very very powerful tools that allow you to do anything you want to do with data that's on your system So certainly the number one reason why intermediate to advanced users prefer the command line usually over graphical Applications is because you can do anything you want at the command line where graphical applications just the nature of them They're limiting they kind of have to be limited right that they can't offer you everything now There are other reasons why you might prefer using the command line and the terminal rather than graphical applications one obvious reason is you don't always have a Graphical application available for what you want to do sometimes you want to do really complicated stuff I want to go find every file that meets this certain criteria on my system And I want to check it and see if it contains this particular string of text And if it does I want to replace that string of text with another string of text And then I want to take all those files and order them in a specific sort of sorting and then I want to take all those files Maybe move them maybe to a remote server somewhere copy them Oh, I could do something really really complicated right at the command line that there's just no way you could possibly do With the GUI what I was just describing You know that very complicated sequence of events that I wanted to do at the command line There's there's not a GUI tool that could do that for me, right? I'd have to go to the command line to do that So many times learning the command line Really is a necessity at some point you have to learn the command line because there are going to be things that you can't do in A GUI also sometimes a GUI is not available for you What if you're working on a server a server that doesn't have a graphical desktop installed It doesn't have Xorg or Wayland doesn't have any kind of desktop environment Right, especially when you SSH into remote servers, right? When you SSH into a remote server all you get is a command prompt, right? That's basically like opening up a terminal except the terminal you're looking at is the remote machines command line And that's all you get if you know all the command line tools You're good You can do anything on that machine you want to do if all you ever did was play with GUI applications You will be completely lost when you have to remote into another machine and I know a lot of people don't have to work with servers I'm one of those people. I don't really play with servers that often I mean, I have a few web servers that I play around with but it's not like I work in IT or system administration or anything And many of you guys probably don't even host your own websites or anything You don't even have any web servers. So you're like, well, I'm just a Linux desktop user So I'm always gonna have a GUI available. No, no, no Trust me things go wrong, right? Updates will break your system occasionally sometimes you will have a situation where you do an update and you reboot your machine and Exord crashes. There was a bad update bad drip video driver or whatever And you can't actually get to a graphical environment, right? All you can do is get to a command prompt, right? You can get to the TTY in this case So you know your console your virtual terminal on your Linux machine and if you know the commands You're good, right? If you've you spent some time at the command line like I have I can navigate anywhere on my system I can find a config file to edit if that's the problem or I can update my system or I can Downgrade a package whatever because I do all that stuff anyway on a daily basis in the terminal I update my system through the terminal. I always use Pac-Man, you know The standard command line tools for Arch to update the system. I never use the graphical tools So if I have a situation where I reboot my machine after an update and Exord crashes, I'm still good because I can still go to the TTY and I can still do everything I want to do, you know And then hopefully once I correct the problem reboot and then get back into my graphical environment that was broken But it's one of those things if you didn't learn the command line tools first then You're in for some headaches, right? Because now you have to start doing some googling, right? You're reading a wiki or maybe reading Stack Overflow to figure out the command line tools that you need to actually Correct the problem where if you'd have just learned them in the first place, you're already good Speaking of Stack Overflow and support forms anytime you ask help or support kinds of questions on the internet About your Linux machine almost always the answer and the solution for your problem is going to be given as a Command line, right? That's going to be given as a terminal command for you to open a terminal and enter this command to fix your problem They're never going to give you instructions on how to use a GUI They're never going to tell you open this graphical program go through this menu system pick this in the menu then you know This screen has got some tabs click on this particular tab Then you should see all these buttons click on the button that says this you know They're not going to go through all that trouble That's confusing as hell and who's to say you even have that graphical program installed on your system Or that particular desktop environment, you know, everybody has different graphical programs installed on their system But you know the one thing every single Linux user has installed on their system The command line they have the shell usually the bashell is like the standard de facto shell on Linux And if you know bash You can do anything so 999 times out of a thousand when you ask a help or support question on the internet It's going to be given to you the solution as a Terminal command so just to get used to that and it makes sense You know because everybody can enter these terminal commands and it will work universally across the board now Are there advantages to a GUI over the command line? I'm not going to say that the command line is always the right tool There are some situations where the GUI could be preferred for example Graphical applications are often a little easier if you're doing multi-tasking Like I've got a lot of different tasks that I want to work on at the same time well with the GUI applications I can open several different programs several different windows right and arrange them on the screen if I'm using a tiling window manager Even if they're floating they can be stacked on top of each other and I can cycle through them and quickly do a lot of different stuff Right with GUI applications where at the command line That's a little trickier multi-tasking you can multi-task at the command line You can you have several different virtual consoles available and you're all of your tty's for example And of course you could install a multiplexer like tmux that will kind of turn your terminal into like a tiling window manager And like a self-contained tiling window manager inside the terminal But it's still a little clunkier multi-tasking is in the command line rather than the GUI now There are some very tangible benefits to using the command line over the GUI if Speed is an issue for you for example file management stuff You saw how easy it is for me to just to open a terminal navigate around do everything I want to do copying files editing files moving files at the command line I'm always going to choose that option over a GUI application just because of speed once you know the commands You know how these commands work there are they are always faster than the graphical applications So if speed is important to you then learning some of these command line tools should also be important to you because it will Just speed up your workflow. The other thing that is a real tangible benefit to using a terminal and using the command line is Terminal applications are typically less resource intensive. They don't use a lot of resources where a GUI application Naturally is going to be a little heavier, right? It's going to use a little bit more CPU a little bit more RAM Then the terminal application wouldn't another big reason why you want to start learning some of these command line tools is eventually As you become a more intermediate to a more advanced Linux user You're going to want to do some scripting, right? You're going to start getting into more advanced stuff that you want to do on your system and that's going to require you to start learning a little shell scripting maybe a little programming and You know once you get into this you have to learn some of these basic command line system tools You can't really learn scripting without learning the command line There are graphical Applications that can kind of help you learn some basic programming You know, there's these wissy wig programs wissy wig what you see is what you get these wissy wig applications It'll let you build a program without actually doing it The the normal way which is opening a text editor and actually writing the program yourself But those I don't like wissy wig programs because they really they hold you back, right? You really need to learn the actual Syntax of the programming language that you're working in in this case bash scripting for example You need to learn some of the system tools the command line tools So I would never suggest anyone to use a wissy wig application to learn any kind of scripting or programming Ultimately, I think think what it comes down to if like if I'm gonna break it down the real difference between command line programs and GUI programs is The command line gives you ultimate control of your system You can literally do anything at the command line because every single command that is available to you on your Linux system is Available at the command line now because it gives you ultimate control of your system The command line is not user-friendly, right? Because anything that is so overly Complex, but I mean it's powerful, but it's complicated, right? Because you can do anything at the command line that naturally makes it complicated So the command lines it's not user-friendly, right? The GUI is user-friendly, right? the GUI is much more user-friendly, but It's the reverse with that user-friendliness You're very limited on options and features functionality because your GUI apps They can never be what the command line is, right? They're just kind of a They're a user-friendly way to do some of the most common tasks on your computer But once you get beyond common tasks You're you will often find that GUI applications are not available for you And you have to open a terminal and do some command line stuff And that really is the difference, you know new users will always hate the terminal because they don't know the commands I mean, how can they like something if they don't actually know how to use it, right? That's why a new user You know You can't fault them for not liking the terminal and wanting GUI applications for everything and the same thing with more advanced users You can't fault them for often naturally Devotating to a terminal because they will know more commands. They it's got more features, you know They they can just do more So you can't really fault somebody like me because I often hear from people you do too much at the command line You do too much with terminal applications. You can't open a GUI application to show this stuff I could but that's just not the way I normally would work even off-camera. I don't work that way I'm always opening a terminal and many advanced users are doing that again I just think that's the natural progression of things when you don't know the terminal You're gonna hate it once you know the terminal you're gonna spend all of your time there one other Advantage of the command line over GUI applications is the command line never changes I mean it changes But you know once you learn the system tools the command line interface tools once you learn the bash shill You know it It's never going to radically change on you where you have to completely Re-learn and with things like grip and said and all can cut now all the the system tools you use on a daily basis at that point You've got it. You've learned it. You will always have it. It'll work on any Unix like operating system that you ever work on the GUI is completely different GUI's change all the time And there's hundreds of different GUIs hundreds of different desktop environments For example all of them very diverse very different You can't just move from one to the other and know how to use them, right and then they drastically change one version of KDE Plasma will be drastically different than the next and same thing with GNOME GNOME 2 and GNOME 3 completely different desktop environments don't even look the same don't function feel the same Where once you learn the terminal the terminal is always the same So you never have to worry about waking up one day and re-learning everything that you used to know Now, I know I've been rambling on a little too long here really I just hope I broke this down in simple terms that are easy to understand I hope that these two opposing sides the new user and the more advanced user They kind of understand each other a little better now the new user of course.  He doesn't know how to use it Right and the more advanced users of course They love the terminal and the command line because once you learn those tools you can do so much with them Right there's so much better than the GUI applications. So that's why we have these two Opposing sides they seem like polar opposites within the community, you know the noobs and the more power users if you will But they're really they're really not polar opposites really all the new user is he's an advanced user Just waiting to happen now before I go. I want to thank a few special people I want to thank the producers of the show Devin Dustin Gabe James Maxim at Michael Mitchell Paul Scott West Alan Armoredragon Chuck Commander Ingrid Iokai Dylan George Lee Lennox Ninja Marshtrom Michael Yon Alexander a piece of art to Mador Polytech reality 3 less road profits even in Willie these guys They're my highest tiered patrons over on patreon without these guys This episode would not have been possible the show is also brought to you by each and every one of these fine ladies and gentlemen All these names you're seeing on the screen right now These are all my supporters over on patreon because I don't have any corporate sponsors I'm sponsored by you guys the community Do you like my work and I'll see more videos about Lennox and free and open source software and the terminal Subscribe to distro tube over on patreon. All right guys.


compressed air energy storage, CAS, has gained attention in recent years due to its potential to store energy from intermittent renewable sources and provide reliable electricity supply. However, existing CAS systems suffer from several drawbacks, including energy losses due to compression, the use of fossil fuels, and dependence on geologic formations. Innovative concepts of CAS, such as adiabatic CAS, isothermal CAS, micro CAS combined with air cycle heating and cooling, and constant pressure CAS combined with pumped hydrostorage, have been proposed to address these issues. By analyzing the energy and exergy of each concept, we can better understand the characteristics of each CAS system and compare them. This article was authored by Youngmin Kim, Jang Hee Lee, Sukjoon Kim, and others.


I spent a number of years being the analytics advisor ten years ago for the health service in Ireland. My analytics was used to create beautiful slides. And they were never implemented or really implemented. We don't do that anymore. And I think the variety of the different speakers today really bring to life that need and that capability to action and deliver the data science insights that you create. Quite simply, if it's not going to change what your back office or your frontline do on a cold Tuesday afternoon, don't bother creating the insight. Simple as that. So, let's start to talk. We all know the impact that digital is happening on business world. And what we're seeing really is a shift as organisations move away from their traditional business to create a new business. Now, it's actually was interesting to hear in the Irish Times speaker earlier, as she talks about the shift to online and the shift to how their content is being presented. This is common across the board. Now, this provides a challenge for organisations because if you shift too quickly to your new business, there aren't enough revenue streams there. You're ahead of the market.   So, strategy now is around managing that pivot to whatever your new business and your new organisation is going to look like. And that applies across every single industry. So, what do you need to do to drive this forward? Firstly, you need to release all of the value that's in your existing business. One, to actually deliver against your commitments. Two, also to fund that shift. And that requires a new type of transformation to the core of your business so that you've got the platforms and datas and infrastructure to enable. Then, you need to scale the new. Wherever that new business is, you need to incubate it, grow it and manage that transition as that becomes your core. And then finally, you have to manage that wise pivot, that shift over to actually becoming the new business becomes your traditional. And then you need to reflect again. Look, I'm biased. I'm a data analytics geek. Analytics insights are at the heart of that transformation. The organisations that will win in this new world will be the ones that can develop the best insights from their customer and from across their enterprise and implement them at scale. And that's what I'm going to talk about today. And you can see, look, I'm a management consultant as well, so I have a 2x2 matrix, sorry. But effectively, you can see there on the 2x2. What are the quality of the insights you are creating? And how good are you at implementing them across the board on scale? The organisations that win that will be able to do both of those. I think I'm just to highlight again that pilot hell, the one where you're creating great insights.  I've been there. There's a great line from the CIO previously of the NHS who said she had more pilots than British Airways and really encouraged you to think about the infrastructure, the platforms, the capability you have to make that full shift. So let's go in a bit more detail there. Are you collecting that data across the board? Be it machine to machine? So there was a reference in the previous talk around the explosion of data so two quick stats. Over 50% of the world's data has been created in the last two years. The vast majority of that data is machine to machine. So how are you collecting that machine to machine, that customer, that unstructured, that structured, that external data? Two, do you have the platforms in place that are going to enable you to transform that? And then three, are you creating that insight? And as part of that then there's four components just want to quickly reference. Firstly, are you launching new platforms and services? Are you able to be that agile and move? Secondly, it was talked about earlier, that experimentation. Are you failing fast, test and learn and move on? From the top to the bottom, are you a data-led organisation? Do you have the governance in place, the organisation in place to enable that kind of delivery? Are your leaderships showing that they are data-led and the decisions that they make? Cos that drives a culture as well. And then also your business model. This fundamentally shifts the type of services that you can offer your clients. Are you thinking about the commercial structure that they actually offer to them and the business model for how you're going to deliver these services and change accordingly? So let's touch on some of those in a little bit more detail. Organisational here is key. It requires a new type of agile governance. We're working with a number of organisations in Ireland just now and helping them reflect about how they build analytics at scale and how they have the executive leadership in governance that directs that but doesn't slow it down. It requires you to strongly reflect about how you make decisions in your organisation, the type of capabilities you have there, the type of reporting lines and make sure that you have that agility and decision-making built in. New smart way of working. You know, different sets of skills. Great to hear the design, I think the parts called out. We are also seeing in data science and analytics a whole new set of career paths. Wonderful to enable and give that opportunity to individuals. And then working in an agile factor. Two week sprints, continual. Continual improvement and an ongoing assessment to improving move to ultimately what will be a new refined business model. And I think this is the key thing for me and actually why I come to work in Accenture. That needs to be able to deliver at scale. And I think just to illustrate that, I'm sure there'll be other illustrations later on. One of the things I like about Accenture is we have industrial-wide analytics platforms. So our water analytics platform is what drives Tim's waters operations. Be it for leakages, be it for predictive acid maintenance, be it for supply and demand prediction. We are doing some really interesting work in the digital plants. Island is number one in the world for high-value manufacturing. Much of that is down to bio-farmer life sciences. Barry Heavey is actually my colleague talking after this, I'll show you how we're using that digital plant to actually help those Irish businesses and the 50,000 jobs that depend on it continue to innovate and continue to be the best in the world. And then actually, both from the life sciences, pharma, co-vigilance and intelligent patient in the healthcare side, changing how health and life sciences work. The intelligent patient services is around cardiovascular patients and trying to stop patients being readmitted or admitted to hospital. And actually to highlight those two because they are two that were built in the dock and actually now industrialized across the world. So let's pick up a couple of other examples as well. So first I want to highlight this is a European insurer that we've been working with. I think this is an interesting example. And it's interesting because of the scale of the value that it's delivered, 15%. Roughly about 11 euro, 12 euro per policy. We are embedding analytics into the customer journey. We are going to a micro-segmentation of one. We are using optimization techniques at the portfolio level to confirm where their investment is going to be spent across different customers and fundamentally in changing that customer engagement for insurance. In an incredibly competitive market, that analytics is enabling a 15% improvement in the profit. Now I need to reflect on what I've been saying to you today as well about that new commercial model. In a world where we believe that the solutions we're talking about can deliver that type of value, I need to think about what new commercial models should my clients expect from me. And I think that's an interesting evolution that all of the analytic suppliers and platform organisations are thinking about as well. To give you another example, health claims. And I think I quite like this because it's four different aspects of it. So we process about 20 million health insurance claims a year. There's four things that we've been doing to it. Firstly, we've been using RPA. I actually don't like RPA plus some analytics to automate 520,000 cases. I'm actually a fan of RPA. The problem sometimes with RPA is the benefit of it is overstated. If you combine RPA though with artificial intelligence and advanced analytics, you can see significant value. Second thing is we're using machine learning to drive basically triaging those cases. This looks like a relatively easy case, but we can't yet automate it. Let's send it to our newbie team. This is a really complex case.  Send it to our expert team and let's get it right first time. Third thing, and Dublin is our global centre for innovation for fraud as well. We have over 300 algorithms customised to find health insurance fraud. Health insurance fraud is primarily driven by white collar fraud. Let's be clear about it. I know in my own country there are a number of political parties that like to push the idea that health insurance is, you know, fraud is driven by health tourism or something like that. It's driven by healthcare professionals doing things they shouldn't be doing. So low volume, high value. Over these 300 algorithms that evolve over time as well and improve and expand, we've been able to save three billion across a variety of clients, including a client in Europe that I work with where we doubled the fraud yield that they were doing for the same number of investigations. And now we're also working with the doc to apply artificial intelligence, in particular looking at the detailed case notes to identify undiagnosed conditions that are in that detail. So, for example, we're helping find people that have got COPD, but it wasn't mentioned by the doctor. So how do we incorporate that insight into an ongoing management? The thing I also wanted to say is this is now the new normal. This is actually my favorite quote. What we are seeing now is the people in this room, the people that are seeing analytics data science as the career pathway we want to take are not tomorrow CIOs. They're tomorrow CEOs. And the organizations that win in this new digital world are the ones that are digitally led and analytics led. And I think that's one of the things we want to touch with across a number of these other presentations as well as we look to assess what is that requirement to be both winning at creating the best insights you can around your customers and your enterprise and also having the platform capability, decision-making process to deliver that at scale. Thank you for your time. I'll now move on to our next speaker.


I was looking forward to this trip for a long time. We both needed a vacation from work, school, just general life stress. This was one stop on our rapid paced adventure across the United States and was something both of us had always wanted to do. Bungie Jumping My friends said we had to find somewhere to do it before we continued on our vacation. It took a while to find someone near us who was willing to take us out last minute. Apparently they want you to go through some class or something first in most places. This guy didn't seem to mind though. The website only had a phone number on it and a picture of a canyon. Usual last minute things with these types of deals. Cash only. He said to show up early in the morning and don't eat beforehand. He seemed excited that we wanted to go out and was quick to tell us where to meet him. Just a short walk from where we parked. No big deal. We managed to arrive at the location sometime in the early morning of dawn, just after the sun began to rise. He was already there, waiting for us. Hey, glad you made it. Hopefully my instructions were good enough. Yeah, no problem at all. Are we good to park here? I gestured at the side of the road. We were just parked on the slump road shoulder, barely sitting above some soft dirt next to the roadway. No worries. No one ever comes up here except for the bungee jumping, of course. He had a giant grin on his face as he waved over at us, indicating to follow. He'd already started down a trail just off the road that seemed to head up into the nearby mountain range. We jogged over to catch up. So where are we going exactly? Just up the trail some leads to a bridge across the canyons in the area. Perfect spot for bungee jumping out here. I'm the only one who knows about it, though. Luckily, you found me. Yeah, yeah, thank you again. We appreciate this last minute trip out here. We really wanted to make sure we had an opportunity to do this before we continued on our vacation. Vacation? Where are you planning to go? Just traveling across the US and enjoying life is all. Just me and my friend. I glanced over at her and smiled. She had a slight upturn at the corner of her lips, but I could tell that the long trail was wearing on her. She wasn't the most talkative usually, but she seemed off today. I decided not to worry about it too much. The jump would help reinvigorate her. I'm sure of it. Sounds like fun. Well, I am glad to be considered as a part of your memories. I certainly don't forget any of my customers. Oh, that's right. Did you want the cash now? I forgot to give it to you before we started up the path. No, hold on to it for now. I can take it afterward. It's no trouble. The rest of the trip up the mountain continued similarly. Small talk here and there. It seemed like my friend wanted to stay tight-lipped the entire way. I tried to comfort her when I could, but she wanted to just focus on the climb ahead of us. I hope the jump would help improve her mood. At least I would make sure to record it so that she could watch it later and enjoy the memory. Before coming out today, I had already checked the camera equipment, so it was ready to go safe and stored in my pack. Before long, the trail widened out, and we were at the base of a hill that seemed to lead farther up the mountain. There was a bench to the side, and my friend quickly ran and sat down, catching her breath. I glanced over at the guide, and he had a thin smile on his face. Even as we'd struggled up the trail, he didn't have a single bead of sweat anywhere. In fact, he seemed even more excited than he had at the beginning of the trail. So we almost there yet? Yes, we are just about there. I installed that bench a while back to give everyone a chance for a break before the fun. It's time to lay some ground rules now, though, okay? Sure, I was expecting there would be some sort of guidelines. Okay. So, you need to listen to everything I say up there. I am the expert, alright? I will make sure you are safe and sound in your harness and prepared for your jump. The equipment is waiting for us up there, already prepped and tested. I hope you didn't eat this morning like I told you, otherwise this may be more unpleasant. You also need to leave all your equipment here at this bench. Oh, and one final rule. I can only take one of you at a time, okay? I glanced over at my friend, and she seemed just as confused as I was. Why can't you take only one of us at a time? We wanted to watch and enjoy the experience together. He was already shaking his head slowly back and forth. Ah, listen, the terrain up there isn't the greatest, and even though the bridge is secure, there are always risks. I can't be responsible for both of you simultaneously, not if I want to keep you safe. So if we are doing this, it's one at a time. I scrunched up my face as I thought about what we should do. We'd already taken most of the morning to climb up here, and we wouldn't find anyone else nearby any time soon we could bungee jump with. Probably wouldn't find anyone else on the other legs of the trip, not with where we planned on going. I shrugged as I glanced over at my friend. She nodded slightly. All right, all right, let's just do this one at a time. We already came all the way up here, it's no big deal. I gestured over to my friend to indicate for her to go first. She started to shake her head lightly without standing, and I rushed over to her to whisper in her ear. Listen, I want you to go first so I can record you, all right? I'm gonna sneak down with the camera and capture everything so we can watch it later. Then when we switch, you can record me as well.  Once they were out of view, I quickly rummaged through our packs and retrieved the camera. It was a rough landscape, but I managed to climb through and around the rocks and small hills to a point where I could see the bridge. It looked old and made of wood, but seemed stable enough. There were long metal poles that jetted out from both sides of the canyon that created an archway in the center of the bridge, the support system for the bungee cord. I held the camera up and looked through the viewer screen, zooming in on the arch. It was a bit blurry, but I could see the guide getting my friend hooked up in the harness, checking all the buckles, and ensuring that the entire rig was secure. I glanced down at the canyon's bottom and noticed that it was a dry riverbed, sand strewn across the vast expanse. As I zoomed in closer, I noticed that all of the sand underneath the bridge had been disturbed. It was dingy and mixed with some sort of rusted red substance. I glanced up just as my friend was lining up to prepare to jump.  Then without warning, he seemed to shove her forward. I chuckled as I thought about the fact that she needed the encouragement. Her screams were echoing across the canyon as she fell, the bungee cord unfurling and flinging backward in the wind. I followed her down with the camera as she dived, her body threatening to twist and turn as it fell. I was preparing for the dip to raise the camera back up when I realized that there was still lots of slack in the cord. I felt my throat tighten as I saw that she was not stopping and was beyond the point where the line would prevent her body from smashing into the ground below. I was forced to only watch through the camera as her body collided into rocks and sand. The cord still unfurling around her. I turned to the side and started to vomit at the thought of what I saw through the viewfinder. The impact with the ground mangled her body and blood splashed outward in every direction, mixing with a dry sand. I wiped my mouth and forced myself to turn and look through the camera. My heart was pounding in my chest and I could barely breathe. I stared at her unmoving body and realized that she was already dead. Suddenly, the slack cord began to tighten and her body started to move upward. Even as her body rose through the air, some of her limbs decided to remain behind on the ground. I felt bile burn the base of my throat as I stared at her mutilated corpse. I started to move the camera back up to the top of the bridge to look at the guide.  The smile only grew as he continued to bring her body higher and higher. Once at the top, it looked like he was inspecting her rendered body, looking down at the base of the canyon and frowning for a moment at the missing pieces. I could see everything through the camera, even blurred as I zoomed in further. However, I nearly dropped the camera when he turned to stare at me, the smile turning into a deep scowl. He began to run down the bridge towards the base of the hill. I knew before long he would realize what path I'd taken to get here. I sprinted off along the canyon wall as fast as I could, my chest threatening to burst. I knew that if he caught me, he'd kill me. There was no way that this was just an accident. I had to get away to find some way to contact law enforcement out here. I wasn't sure how far I'd gotten when I finally took a break. My limbs were shaking violently as I tried to relax, at least to catch my breath. Every creak and crack in the trails around me caused my head to jut rapidly around, thinking he was already behind me. As my heart finally stopped pounding, I was able to think and realized that I must have gotten away. I would have heard something by now if he was following me.   My friend was dead. I should never have let her go with some strange man by herself. I should have insisted we go together or just left. Maybe she'd still be alive if I wasn't so obsessed with recording our adventure. I leaned back to stare at the treetops around me, just as a face popped around the corner of the trunk. I screamed as I saw that it was the guide, now face to face with me. His broad smile showed off the blood-red color of his gums striking against the shining white teeth. Before I could move to flee, he brought down a rock on my face and my vision faded to black. When I awoke, I could tell that I was hanging upside down.  I tried to cough, but the cord around my chest was so tight I could barely breathe As I started to struggle, the guide appeared before me again, still smiling with his wide and creepy grin. Did you think that you could get away? Don't answer please, I just want to enjoy this. He took out some cloth and shoved it in my mouth before I could say anything. My heart was trying to break free from my ribs, attempting to be the only part of me to escape and survive, but we were all trapped here together. Your friend didn't stay together all too well, not as fun. I hope these cords help you stay together a bit better. Don't worry, soon you shall see your friend. Well, at least the parts in the bottom of the canyon. He leaned back and seemed to laugh at his joke as I tried to scream through the cloth at him. Suddenly, however, his head turned to the side and I heard multiple voices overlapping and shouting from down to the side of the bridge. I couldn't see what was going on, but the guide seemed to look around for somewhere to flee.  Several uniformed men ran up in front of me and blocked my view as they stared off the edge. He had jumped without any sort of bungee cord. I quickly realized that I was looking at some kind of law enforcement. They all jumped as we heard the sickening flak of his body hitting the ground of the canyon. If it weren't for the cloth in my mouth, I would have vomited again. It was a long trip down the trails, but I was rapidly brought to a local hospital to be checked out once on the road. Outside of the wound on my face, I was uninjured. I later found out that the local law enforcement had been hunting for him for a while and heard them refer to him as mangler. Bodies had shown up the last couple of months, destroyed in an unknown manner. However, they recently got a lead from a strange girl who told them about a bungee jump guide in the area, but no one was licensed nearby. I quickly realized that it had been my friend and I realized why she looked so sick today. She must have known about this from the start and communicated with the local law enforcement. I later found the clippings in her pack after they finally returned it to me. Clippings of the killings that had happened in the area. How long had she known about him? Was the purpose of our trip to find out what was going on? I'm left with so many questions and no answers because she's dead and I'm alive. Did she hope that law enforcement would save us up there? If I hadn't run, we'd both be dead and that man would have been long gone, but instead they were both dead and I now had to find some way to keep on living. I didn't know what I was going to do to live through this. All I knew was that I needed to finish the trip. I needed to do it for both of us. I hadn't looked at the other clippings she'd stored away, not yet.


Hey guys. Hello. How's it going? I started typing and I was worried that I might, my audio thing didn't work. No, I just try to get myself organized. Was that Nikko was saying hello back there? Yep, good morning. Good morning. And I'm going to butcher your name, I apologize. Thiago? Thiago? Okay, maybe they walked away. So, Clemens, did you, I apologize, I was in phone calls, but did you get a chance to see anything from your side relative to the demo? Let me see. Okay, I'm still seeing failures. I don't know whether, I haven't had a chance to debug it yet, so I was hoping maybe it was on your side. Well, I can put it this way, do you actually see the incoming messages? Like until, yeah, I haven't looked at the logs for the stream logs for. Okay, hold on. They make sure, they make sure I have the right URL because I had to typo in it before, so. Yeah, what's the, Well, actually, no, it's what I sent you before, so. Yes, no. The, the, you have some artifact at the end of the URI? Oh, what the heck is that? I don't know where it comes from. Oh, you know what, I bet it is. Okay, hold on a minute. Let me see if getting rid of that fixes it. Yeah, I think I added it to the stuff that was there before. So what's the tail end of the URI supposed to be? Is it dash dash? Okay, I'm still getting a failure. What failure? Because I'm looking at the logs from here and it's, it's not, it's not ending up inside of my. Really? Okay, so if you're not even getting called. I'm just disturbing. Let me overfill it again so I can see. Let's go with a browser. Should I get a 400 or should I get something different? You should not. You should not get anything. Okay, well, okay, let's, let's take this offline. Something's obviously going wrong. Don't know what side we'll see. All right, let's see who else is on. Hi, Bert. Hello. Thiago, are you there yet or Thiago? I got a very full agenda today. Hi, Rachel. Hi. How's it going? Okay. Cool. And Victor. Oh, Victor, that might get in my. Victor, are you there yet? Yes, I am. Excellent. And what about Kristoff? I'm here. Hi. Hello. And I apologize. Hi. Hi. Hi, can you hear me? Yes, no, I can't. Excellent. Thank you. Which company are you with by the way? I'm sorry. Is this your first time on the call? Yes, this is my first time. I work with not strong. Excellent. Okay. Thank you. And welcome. Thank you. Hinds, are you there? Yes, I am here. Excellent. Thank you. All right. How about person, T H I a G O Thiago Thiago. I have to sync up with them later. Hope everybody had a good vacation, at least for the US folks. Although it is. It is all kind of a vacation when the US is on vacation. And everybody else gets to have less work, I assume, or less chatter. Or finally gets it done. There you go. Exactly. I think is convinced that it's like a mini vacation for her when I go on a business trip So I think it's the same kind of thing for you guys All right, Steve. Oh, are you there? Hello, everyone. Hello and ginger Hello, and what about the room? Yep, I'm here. Excellent Think I got everybody I assume most of you guys are gonna be at Koopcon, right? Yep Excellent, let's see Roberto. Are you there? Yeah, I'm here Good morning. Good morning. Someone else go flying by Good morning. This is John Mitchell John Mitchell. I should know your phone early now Yeah, there was someone else I saw hi, that's it Sonya welcome. Thank you Is this I can't I apologize is it this isn't your first time on the call is it it is my first time on the call Oh, it is excellent. What company are you with twist lock? Twist lock. Okay, cool. Thank you. Thanks For are you there? fraud Rachel you're on there twice Yeah, my internet went out so I do Okay, for art. Are you there? Yeah, I'm here representing Cathy also excellent. Okay Thank you. Yep, and what about Tiago Tiago th I a GO. Are you there? Yeah, I'm here. Okay, and which company you with by the way? I'm from I'm sorry. What was that again? Excellent Yes, like that. Yeah, excellent. Thank you very much. Welcome. Thank you All right, is there anybody on this thing? We'll give another 30 seconds or so to three past the hour. Mr. Curtis. See you there Jim. Yes, I'm here. Excellent We have a low attendance today that's unusual for us as soon as my clock flips over to three past what gets started I nail you there Neil or Klaus? Okay, we'll catch up with you guys later. All right Klaus Not a problem Neil you look off me for a sec Okay, say what we'll catch up later with these guys. Let's go and get started Do-do-do you've got a very full agenda. Let's see how much we can get through so Community time so this is a quick time for people who may not normally join the call to bring up any topics They'd like to Mention or have a short discussion on I Know a couple of new people Any other any new topics you want to bring up? All right in that case moving on Okay, SDK We did have a phone call yesterday our weekly call Good news. We now have a C sharp implementation. Thanks to Clemens and Microsoft For the most part you guys can look at the meeting minutes, which is in this link right here I think the only thing kind of worth mentioning is that From a versioning perspective and I sent that under about this last night We will not be versioning the SDKs at the same level as the spec themselves Meaning the SDKs will be able to change their version over as they see fit or as necessary The way people will then know what version of the SDK goes with which version of the cloud of inspect is by checking the documentation So we just need to make sure that the docs are up the data and all that stuff If you have any concerns about that, please go ahead and respond back to my note or join the weekly call But that was the decision that they made yesterday So just want to bring that up for you guys because I think everything else is pretty standard, but that was the only thing That's kind of exciting All right any questions on that All right, I don't see Kathy on the call and I don't believe anything's happened with the workflow stuff So I don't think there's anything to say there relative to kubecom As of right now, I don't think we have any new slides. We just have the Shanghai ones I was gonna take the action item to convert the slides over to the To the Seattle template that they have I assume they have a different template. I haven't checked yet But I assume it's out there. So I was gonna do that conversion But I what I really wanted to do though was to open the option up for anybody else on the call or part of the group itself If you would like to have a speaking role or you know do part of the presentation because we have an intro and a deep dive Please speak up and reach out to us offline I think the default is probably going to be that it's either gonna it's gonna be Clemens Kathy and myself Between the three of us handling the intro and deep dive like we did in Shanghai But that doesn't mean other people can't participate if they if they want to So, please just speak up and after the call just drop me a note and we'll figure out some way to get you in there If you do if you really do want to present and of course As soon as I do the conversion of the slides over to the new template I will make you make that available to you guys to look at to review and if you feel like there are any Changes you'd like to make about anything. Please speak up or go ahead and make comments in the presentation itself Okay Are there any questions or comments about that? All right. Cool. Thank you So the interop demo we are planning on doing showing this In Shanghai we showed it very briefly during the intro Whether it stays with the intro or we do it in a deep dive or a little bit of both We don't know yet. We don't need to talk to Clement and Kathy about that But the demo is still it is there. I think we have five or six different endpoints right now If you'd like your endpoint, I'm sorry if you'd like to put up an endpoint that included in that They look at the working back in this link right here under work There's you have Obviously until the day of to get your endpoint up there. It's not a very large endpoint relatively easy to do But there are you know, we the sooner you get up to the better so we can do some debugging if things do go wrong But you do have time to get it up there. The only thing worth mentioning from my point of view is as of right now The endpoint uses version 0.1 next I should fix that's not there's nobody in there. We're using 0.1 as the Version string for the spec version field and obviously that's not right. We're not doing 0.1 Everybody's doing the latest version of the spec, which is some undefined thing Well, we what I'd like to propose is that we switched to 0.2 Anticipation of us doing 0.2 in the relatively near future. Hopefully before kubecon But even if we slip it's I think 0.2 is more accurate than 0.1 because 0.1 is basically a flat out lie so what I'm proposing to the Demo guys that are working on it and I'm not hearing any pushback yet But I wanted to mention it to you guys so that you're aware of it and give you guys a chance to raise any concern About the fact that 0.2 will appear in the message flows that we demo at kubecon itself Okay, any questions or concerns about that? Or any questions about that you're not demo at all. Yes Just make the the version change soon so that we can make sure everything's working Yeah, I would yeah for those of you who are not in the demo slack gentle I was gonna make the change to the controller tonight So hopefully at some point during the evening if you change your function over to support the 0.2 Then everything should work by tomorrow morning, but I was gonna make the change tonight on my side Okay Yeah, the problem I ran into is that spec version is an invalid header in 0.1 Yeah, so we have to do it. We have to do it. It's it's really required Yep So like I said, I want to get out there tonight All right, cool. Let's move on to the more fun stuff the PRs. Okay, so let's see first up is Clemens Okay, would you like to quickly talk to this one Yeah, there were there were some Confirms raised in issue 185 but there was some some lack of clarity about how some of the data types work and how do you Deal with I'm trying to get some clarity in them. So first of all Making clear that either your eye reference and the type stamp are not just strings, but they are following a particular scheme and then I've also added some Explanatory text that says that you can defectively Infer either from the mapping table If you know so for instance for date for sorry for time You know that it's a date and even though it shows up as on the wire as a string You know that you have to do a conversion into a native type Whatever your SDK is the same is true for The URI reference and for instance in the in the CRC sharp SDK actually I surfaced that as a URI type and the daytime type So that's basically Explaining and that you use should use inference and then at the bottom I further clarify this if you find in the data in the data attribute you find a string but the data the string is a Is basing before encoded And you are not expecting something that's that's a text or it's it's a it's a content type that you don't understand then your effect is decoding that as Into binary from basic before if it's basic for And I believe that you're not changing semantics this is just clarifying what the intent was all along right? There's no There's no There's no change of rules here That's effectively and I'm for instance in implementing. So now that I've actually coded ones through the whole thing It's something that is is fairly automatic Okay, any questions or comments for Clemens all right not hearing any is there any objection to adopting this done or proving it Cool. I like easy ones. Cool. Thank you Clemens Rachel I believe yours is relatively easy as well. Give me a sec. All right Rachel you want to quickly talk to this one? this change this adds the media types that Jim day asked for when we accepted the program and Then you and then you pointed out that we were missing a must in the JSON format as well to say which type is that one? Yeah, I just have to even to be the same system Okay, any questions or comments on this one for Rachel? All right, any objection to approving that one Excellent. Thank you. Now Next one is from Jim. Unfortunately, I don't believe Jim is on the call. I mentioned to me. He wasn't gonna be able to make it today, but I believe This is just fixing the protobuf To align with the property change that went in last week as before camera when I guess two weeks ago Hopefully, this is more of a typo type change, but I want to give people a chance to look at it Anybody see any problem with these changes Rachel in particular? No, they seem good to me. Okay. Anybody else have any questions or comments on this one? Okay, any objection to approving this one? Excellent. Thank you guys. All right next this one's from me. So We've made a lot of really critical decisions as we've been developing this back and Some of them would could use some explanation in a non-normative document So for example in this particular case, I decided that it might be useful to add some Explanation about why we chose to do the extensions the way we did into the primer itself And so basically this PR just adds some additional text Mainly to the primer just explaining some of the reasons why we did what we did I All I tried to do was just to summarize the discussions we had in the past and explain it I then also Added a pointer to it Actually, I had a little bit of clarity saying extensions need to be placed as top-level things But they can be the extension themselves can be nested meaning they could be Structures not just single property kind of things just for clarity's sake and then add a pointer to the new primer checks This in no way changes any semantics whatsoever It's just my first pass is trying to allow people who are new to the group to understand why we did what we did And that's that's basically it obviously if there are additional changes later on people want to make this text We can make those but I just wanted to get an initial pass out there for people to understand the initial thinking I think that's been out there for a little bit of time. Are there any questions or comments on that? Okay, any objections or approving? Cool. Thank you guys What was this one this one's for me as well trying to remember what I was oh Yeah, this one actually was been open for a while originally I think Austin made a comment about How it'd be nice if people Use versions in some of our properties in particular which one was this in like for example the type People may want to put a version string in there the same way we expect them to do it on this scheme of URL And it was a relatively minor change, but then I think Clemens made a comment about how People need to be careful when they start changing that version string in there because it's gonna be viewed as a As a breaking change by consumers So I added some text to the primer to give some background on that thought and Clemens I think you said you reviewed this text and you're okay with it. Yeah Okay So hopefully people had a chance to look at that Are there any questions or comments about this one, I think it's been out there for at least a couple of days for review I don't think this makes any normative change whatsoever. It's just explanation text All right, any objection then to adopting this one? All right, cool. Thanks All right, so next one now this one I opened up today And I know like I said in the comments typically for non typo changes we want them to be out there for a little while I do actually kind of consider this to be a bit of a typo It's not quite a typo, but it's awfully awfully close. I Notice this morning while talking to Clemens that we never actually say in the spec What the exact string is to use for the spec version property in other words Is it zero point one? Is it v zero point one? Is it something different? We never actually say and this is actually very important So you get in our ability and the the demos and SDKs have all been assuming zero point one At least for the the current version of the spec So all I really want to do was to add this little bit of text here that says if you're going to be compliant to this version of The spec that you must use zero point one Obviously the minute we approve zero point two this will have to change with everything else in the spec relative to the version number But I thought it was important that we get this out there Because we never actually say what the version string looks like so hopefully you'll Accept the my apologies for this being a little bit bigger than a typo, but not much more Anybody have any questions or comments on this? Any objections to adopting it if you feel like if you like you want to wait a week I'm okay with that, but if no one has any concerns, I'd rather get it in there Okay, not any objections. Thank you guys very much. Whoops What did I do? All right, cool now. I sent out a note. I think a day or two ago Saying that we have three different issues that are right now officially tagged at zero point two But they're kind of in a holding pattern because the original authors have not gone back to us on the feedback that we've given them So rather than just closing it for lack of activity I'd rather give them a little more time to think about it or to respond back to us However, I don't want to I don't want that to actually block us from going to zero point two So I would like to do is propose that we move these out of the zero point two milestone I don't believe any of these are Breaking and obviously since we're not talking about a one point. Oh, we could always make changes as we go along Anyway, but I didn't want to make the decision unilaterally I wanted to give you guys a chance to say no you think some either of these three need to stay in zero point two So does anybody think any of these three must stay in zero point two? Okay? So we'll move those out. Thank you guys All right now for another fun one so Kevin I apologize camera Kevin's last name of Kevin way when He is proposing that we change spec version to cloud events version Let me just stop there and open the floor What do you guys think so I just dealt with that Yes as we had Because you were using in the sample in the in the in the demo you were using spec version with 0.1 and that combination is invalid Because we introduce spec versions after zero point one However, the way I've solved that in in the esteem. So the C sharp SDK now kind of works with with either And if it takes spec version it basically sets It's zero point two Even if it contains zero point one it basically overrides it Since we're since we're moving off a very experimental version and we want to land that spec version I have not really had any problems with doing the implementation in a way that it's tolerant of zero point one but then otherwise is Basically light with zero point two. So it doesn't there's no change necessary for for From my application perspective Right. I think he's asking a different question. I think he's basically says one This is a breaking change for people that adopted zero point one and obviously it is because it's a property name change But I believe also he's claiming that Spec version itself is not descriptive enough and he'd like it to switch back to cloud events version because it's more descriptive And I wanted to basically open the floor that people Say whether they think we should change it back change it to something else because I know version itself as a word is also been proposed So I'd like to hear I have the same opinion, but I don't have a good argument for it. I just think that's more descriptive Which is more descriptive the cloud events version. Okay, the more verbose one. Okay Yeah, this is Roberto so I we discussed this extensively when When we made the changes recently to remove event from all the prefixes and I think we should leave it at this I mean, we had opportunity to discuss it and I don't see a good reason to change it again to tell you the truth Yeah, and and so let me jump in here just from a procedural perspective I know we've never formally I don't think the governance back formally says this so maybe it should at some point is the idea reopening issues is obviously something it's always a possibility and In other groups that I've been in usually we only allow people to reopen issues when there's sort of new information to be presented That maybe wasn't considered before But simply reopening it because someone felt like we made the wrong choice without new information usually is frowned upon Um, I this may fall that category I'm not sure but I just wanted to mention that, you know, I don't think any of us wants to necessarily reopen this can of worms, but I Did want to at least give the opportunity Yeah, I just think this introduces churn into the spec unnecessarily. I mean this really doesn't have anything to our spec And I think it's just Unnecessary Okay, but I would argue. Okay, this back version itself is not see right word We are well potentially change it again in the future to versioning somebody else will read the question Okay, it's the back version is Not the right choice, right? Either way, give it away. This is Kevin. Yeah. Oh, you're oh hi Kevin Hi, cool. I just joined in yeah, sorry. I'm in office Yeah, so I would prefer either we take one step further to Use a version or we take one step back with a more descriptive for cloud events version Yeah, so take one step back definitely I have benefited on my side. I I don't have to Change my code But if we want to make it okay simpler and that's verbose then we should take a version instead of spec version Okay, thank you Kevin and thank you for joining the call appreciate that When we discussed this previously, I don't remember exactly, but I thought we left it open to possibly changing versions and someone was gonna make a Poor request to discuss that separately But I thought we decided definitely not to do cloud events I think this brings up some possible new information, but we did discuss that This will be a breaking change and we knew it'd be a breaking change And we accepted that because we're only at zero dot one So I don't know that it introduces much new information, but I do I thought we left it open Making it version instead of spec version Okay, I don't remember whether we did that or not you could be right. My memory is horrible It could have ended differently than what I remember But I thought at some point we discussed that right Okay, thank you Anybody else want to chime in here? Yeah, right here. So I also feel like either we keep it simple it just version or we keep it how it was earlier Like cloud events were done like a spec word and also doesn't look like very good name to me as well Okay, thank you Anybody else want to Hi, this is Vladimir. I prefer to leave it as is if you Consider from the point of view of the user. So they are looking into some events. They see a property This is a spec version. So they know that this relates to the version of the specification I understand that there might be some rework done on the side of who implemented 0.1 in code, but I feel we are so early in in our understanding and learning about events that change in this level at 0.1 We should not go with the legacy code as Being the foundation for the specification at such an early stage and I think over time Changes like this will become smaller and smaller and we'll have them less and less. So I prefer to leave it as is. I feel it is descriptive enough The version refers to the version of specification. So I feel there is no confusion there Okay, thank you. Thank you. Yep Anybody else want to chime in before I start picking up people to try to get them to speak up? Okay, I'm gonna take on Klaus Just because I like your name Klaus you have an opinion on this one Well, I also like spec version. I think I mean cloud events is already evident as it's either part of a map or Prefixed depending on the car on the transport but spec is somehow A bit more descriptive because there could be other things that would be version like the event type or whatever And this could create misunderstandings, but spec version is short and descriptive enough Okay Um, I have an idea of a proposal but before I put it out there. Is there anybody else that would like to say something? or voice an opinion Okay, so based upon what I'm hearing so far. It seems to me That the argument for going to or going back to cloud events version because of the breaking change is something that I think Not everybody but most people seem to not necessarily accept as a valid argument basically Saying hey, we're not at 1.0 yet The backwards credibility thing is just a fact of life. It's a it's a 0.1 So that that's not part of the argument is what I think I'm kind of hearing So I think the the question before us really comes down to Do we want the current spec version or do we want it to be just version? and I think that's really the question in front of us So I guess my question for the group is if you if you accept that as the as the real question is Do we want to basically open this door up to Have another vote. I think that's what it's probably going to come down to because I'm not hearing anybody give a a An argument that seems to be swaying one side or the other And I do kind of get the sense that maybe we are kind of 50 50 about whether it should be version Give that simpler versus spec version because yeah, it's simple, but it's still a little descriptive Both seem to be about 50 50 from what I'm hearing so far And I'm not quite sure how to resolve that other than to take some sort of vote at some point But to me we first need to ask the question of Do we want to reopen this at all because we did make a decision? And I don't want it as again the habit of reopening previous decisions But this is kind of a big one So I'd like to hear whether people think nope It's sort of an out of order thing and we should accept the decision until there's new information Hi, this is John Mitchell. Yeah, I think I agree with that I haven't heard anything to justify like reopening the whole discussion Yeah, I agree with that. This is Roberta I agree with Vickler Is there anybody who strongly feels like this is worthy of reopening of the discussion? Or they feel like there actually is new information either one of those, okay Um, I guess does that imply that our decision is we're going to leave it as is I don't want to force this on people because I know for example Kevin you feel strong enough to open up the issue in the pr And that who was it was it dan or no john Mitchell I think you've made it mentioned that we actually did leave the door open for this change in the future And I don't want us to feel like we're we're reneging on that on that promise But at some point we have to be able to as a group say yes, we're going to reopen this or not Does anybody feel like we're being hasty about this or they want to raise another point? I'm not quite sure how to go here other than Not sure where to go next with this other than to say is there any objection to not making this change If I don't want to force that on people It's at some point anybody who's making changes to attributes also needs to change all the SDKs Yes So you're saying there's going to be an uber pr that's going to hit like five different repos That's what the cost is right? I I just I just spend whatever five days Dealing with spec version and cloud events version and splitting those up and and snapping to the reality of this so That makes me revisit the code which means making that change at this point now has real cost yeah Yeah, that's what I was referring to when I said this just introduces unnecessary term Okay, so I'm not hearing any any huge objections um Kevin since you're on the call Are you okay with the decision to leave it as is? I know you're not thrilled with it because you open the pr but That's fine. Yeah, that that is a group decision. That's fine I just wanted to warn the group that in the future we should reduce such a break and change we At least Should have at least one thing stick with us So we can smooth them You know Maintain the forward and the backward Compatibility the good thing about the version zero two is that okay? You guys are now the Extensions as an envelope. So that means I can still keep using the cloud event version as an extension in my spec Yes, you can That's funny, but yes, you can we made we made two major changes here Uh in this version first of all everything is lowercase and second we Renew the majority of the property. So It's not just the version. It's it's it's mostly everything Okay, I think we I think we're circling around. This is it. I'm sorry. Go ahead Yeah, I also just want to like add a little bit to what kevin said because uh, we at oracle are Little bit early adapter for this and the problem is not like uh for us to change something It's like if we change it then all of our clients like we have multiple internal teams Which are going to use it. So if we change something all of them also have to change so the I agree that it's early phase. We should be like ready to accept changes But if we can kind of like minimize the breaking change, it will be like good for everybody Yep, I think everybody would hear that Yeah, I think I think what we're doing now with the sdk work And that we're actually writing code that's part of the project that will cause inertia in In elementary things like like attribute names, etc So I think that's fairly automatic because otherwise literally whoever makes that change He needs to go through all the code to make sure that it all works Yep Okay, so I think we're circling around the decision of Closing this pr and the associated issue with no action Is there any Objection to that Okay, thank you very much and thank you kevin for taking the time to open up the issue forever and Having or forcing us to have the discussion because it is a good discussion to have Um Okay, cool. Thank you very much All right So um according to my estimation, we have two other issues that are candidates for 0.2 milestone um This issue wanted to clarification around the jason section or the i'm sorry the um Did the jason data or the jason civilization of the data attribute? And clemens and the author went back and forth a little but since then The actual doc has been changed and there's some new text in there and according to clemens and I figured this It sounds like this actually new text removes the problem Because the the objection or the concern was around the use of the word object in the old text and that's no longer there As you can see by the text here So I think we can actually close this issue now. However, I before we actually close it. I'd like to wait for read To confirm that it actually is okay, but either way, I don't think this is necessarily a blocker because it is just a very minor change Um to the to the spec if we do it I don't think it's a blocker for two point though, but I wanted you guys to take a look at it and confirm that yes, it is not a blocker and or Did you take on whether we can actually close this? Any questions or comments on that? I guess to be more clear. I'm proposing that we close this with no action Once you get confirmation from the original author Okay, I'm not hearing any objection The last issue. I think we had was this person was suggesting that we have a Another transport for web push protocol um Since that time I've asked the person if they'd be interested in writing a pr I've also asked if someone else would like to volunteer to write it. I haven't heard anybody jump up and down saying yes um now I'm don't necessarily I'm not necessarily proposing that we close this with no action because it could be that people haven't had time to Look at it yet. However, like the other issues that have been sort of Stale for a while. Um, I want to move it out of the zero point two Bucket and that way it's not blocking us from looking at a zero point two milestone So is there any objection to moving this out of the zero point two? milestone With the assumption that we could always add it add in the transport later, obviously It's just not it's not it's just removing it from being a blocker I'm not a hundred percent sure of what I'm going to say right now, but Since this is just htp I believe that htp htp to push Is just using the normal htp's message semantics for Push which means it sends a normal htp message with headers and a An entity body, which means that is effectively already covered by our htp mapping because htp mapping maps at the level of rc 32 72 31 The htp2 maps that to a different wire protocol in its own spec But that's effectively what it does and I think that also covers htp to push The question there is whether we need to have a Spec that is An equivalent to our webhook spec And there I don't think it's more necessary than being specific about Not how to do an htp request with our without htp mapping. So I'm not sure that spec is actually necessary Okay, so it sounds like You're you might actually be advocating to close it with no action, which is a valid choice But but the more important question for me right now is you're then agreeing that it's not a blocker for zero point two If right, I certainly don't think so Right, okay So is there anybody on the call who thinks that this should be a blocker for zero point two? And we could save the discussion about whether it's a valid request at all for for another time Okay, not hearing any objection that I'd like to move it out of zero point two and we can have the discussion later And so clemens could you possibly put a comment in here? Basically restating what you just said And see what they're Okay, cool. Thank you Okay, so with that I believe we've actually addressed all of the Requirements for zero point two in terms of open issues. I think we have the main Known requests for For mandated properties. I know there are still some properties some optional properties that are under discussion But I think zero point two milestone just basically says, you know, try to nail down the the required ones We have this list of core protocols I'm not hearing anybody jump them down saying we have to have any brand new ones I mean, we have some things like rocket mq and by zero point two We don't have to decide to have it in or out We just have to have sort of an initial list of ones we want to consider and I think we have that list already So at this time what I'd like to do is to propose that We get everybody one week A review time and I guess I do could call it a voting period as well So one week to review all the current documentation. So that's The main spec itself all the transport specs and the primer With the goal of Within this one week people saying yes or no to approving it as a zero point two With the final deadline for the or the final Taleling of the vote happening on next week's call. So one week review slash voting period What do people think? Any concerns with hey in that direction before I formally ask the question Okay, any objection then to basically starting the one week review and voting period That means we should be able to get to assuming everybody approves it to zero point two in time for kubcon Which would be very exciting. Cool. Thank you very much And I will send a note to the knowing list to ask to for those people who cannot make the call to do the review And hi gem. I see you on the call. Thank you um, all right Moving forward Uh, we had a rocket mq transport binding. Oh, I'm sorry. Go ahead.  Um, can you close? 329, please Um, hold on wait because that's we had a we had a We had a uh Commit that we messed up jointly Oh, so this one's already been done. Um, it's done. It's just that we closed it because you and me we kind of messed And I think Yeah, you're being generous. I think I messed it up. But yeah, hold on That wasn't perfect enough for you to just easily work. Yeah, okay. Um Okay, I'll close it after the call, but I'll add a reference to the pr. So we want people understand why we closed it Okay, so Just remind myself Cool. Thank you, sir All right rocket mq so This person would like to add a rocket mq transport. All right, isn't there a pr that goes with this? Oh, I'm sorry. I'm looking at the wrong one. Do I It is the pr All right, so this person is proposing a rocket mq transport binding What do people think about this? I think about that the exact same way. I think about it Patrick Polzler And that is rocket mq is choosing to have its own wire protocol for one project Well, the rest of the world tries really hard to either In the messaging world at least tries really hard to either go in a line of mqp or mqbt um Or kafka So that's the three big ones and rocket mq wants to do its own thing and My my argument keeps being That um, we're trying we should try not to bless Um project preparatory protocols Anybody else have a comment So have we not established a president's by Don't we have a gnats binding today? We do have a gnats binding. Yes So does that set a president for doing these sort of um Doris a custom I think there are multiple implementations. I think we had that discussion. There was there. There are multiple implementations of gnats Okay Yes, oh Let me just double check. He made some comments I'll make sure I'm remembering correctly Okay, yeah, he said he's been adopted by hundreds of companies He I don't think he says there are multiple implementations and if I hear you correctly clements I think that's your biggest concern is the multiple implementation aspect. Is that right? Yeah, it's it's effectively So so that's the that's my concern is Is in the messaging space There is conversions towards a single protocol, which is all great um and There's a few outliers and starting to um, you know, help the outliers I'm I'm not a fan of that But that's, you know, that's my that's that might be my my My stance or trying to you know, bring peace and harmony to messaging space Um, that might be my attitude there Um, and might not be the right one for this project, but I just don't believe we should go and um And help proprietary protocols to get blessing of interoperability projects Right, so I could so let's be very explicit then um Does rocket mq satisfied these two points? It does not Does anybody else have an opinion on that? I would just say that I thought of those as Being ordered together not added together So it would only need one of those and we can argue about that Let's point to either. Okay. I agree with you Rachel that it is an order So Cummins, you don't think it satisfies either one of those, right? No, it doesn't No, this is times. I agree. It it really doesn't satisfy either one of them Okay Does anybody on the call think that it satisfies either one of those? Okay So what I would recommend I'm sorry. Go ahead, Clemens. So so that said um, I want to have this I really want to have a debate with The open messaging project on how we can probably go and align things better And so it's not that I'm that I'm just categorically saying hey, we should shut the door in that entire effort because the open messaging proposal also came from I think from that same group of people So it's not that I want to you know, shut them out But it's I think I think we can do better in terms of our probability than then You know trying to push proprietary approaches so We have some immediate we have some initial discussions in our talk before our talk in china And I think it's well worth having a debate about how we can go and align both the open messaging effort and the rocket mq effort with You know the greater interoperability effort that efforts that exist um, and that's worth That's a discussion worth having and I realized that rocket mq and open messaging our efforts are coming out of china and there are You know communication barriers and For some folks also, you know time zone barriers, etc So we should go and have a have a conversation how we can go and align those things on standards Yeah, I think that'd be a good idea. I'm just trying to think Of the best way to move forward to actually make that happen because I think I think they'd be very open to the idea obviously Yeah, that was also my impression it's too sad This so by the rules that we've set it doesn't meet the bar And I think that needs to have a it needs to have it's a broader discussion needs to be had in terms of How we can go and align those how we can go and align those efforts. I would rather Frankly, I would rather have for rocket mq to go and snap to a protocol that everybody speaks And also open messaging to be something that kind of is a higher level api project That helps interoperability rather than kind of build another jms effectively right jms was built for um A world where everybody kept their product protocol proprietary And we should not you know promote that again. What we're doing here is real wiring rock And that's what we're aiming for and we should stay true to that so Okay, um, I'm wondering Whether it would make sense to reach out to these guys because I suspect at least some of them will probably be a kook on Um, clements, would you be open to me initiating a face-to-face conversation with these guys to try to to get that alignment that you're talking about? Yeah, I think that would be useful if we had that Okay, is there anything else on the call who would like to participate in that conversation? That way we can try to align schedules Okay, if you guys would actually Hi, it's okay. Hold on Hold on You guys can see what I'm typing Sorry there it was on mute. No, not a problem. Okay, so I'm seeing that and seeing that really from the dual dual hat perspective of both From the a B P oasis a PTC committee perspective as well as from here Okay, if there's somebody on the call Who would like to join the conversation? Um, just ping me offline. I'll I'll loop you into the chat But I'll I'll take the action to sort of reach out to those guys and see if they'll be a kook on and we have a conversation there um Okay, so relative to the pr itself It sounds like The action is to write back to them saying that the group does not believe it meets the minimum bar of one of those two requirements listed in the primer I mean in these two points I don't mind taking that action item to put that in there I'll leave the open. I'm sorry. I'll leave the pr open Just so they can reply back if they think that we're wrong and they can explain why he actually does meet one of those two bars But other than that unless they come back and convince us otherwise We'll eventually close it But I wanted to give them a chance to to reply back, but I'll take the action to let them know what our just current decision is Is that okay with everybody? Okay, cool. Thank you guys very much Okay, um what time we have left. Okay 12 minutes. So we have I was looking through the list of open issues or prs um There's a there's a couple that are outstanding that need updates. Um Um Rachel, do you know if thomas is going to have a chance to come back to this one? Or do you think he's looking for someone else to take ownership of it? I have not heard from him that it's on his reader. Okay Um Do you think he'd object if someone else took a took a pass at it? Probably not Okay, we'll see. Maybe I'll find somebody or try to find time myself to work on it. Okay Um, I think the other ones. I think this one's still being up or being discussed I think the this one is being discussed as well because it's related to that one um Now that we had these two prs from sara I believe there is open comments on there or or questions and I know sara's been busy with other things like the safe stuff But she hasn't replied back to us on those and I My general sense is I don't as I think these are necessarily needed And I commented on those both of those prs that we don't hear back. I was going to propose That they be Closed with no action and I haven't heard back from you from her any of the one of those So my proposal for the group here is to close these two prs here With no action. I would suggest that the idea like the proposal for more asynchronous participation Is about like those are about letting us vote not in the meeting because it takes up so much time in the meeting when we have to vote So I think that's a good change. Has that change already been adopted? Like do we now just like do voting asynchronously? We do we allow for we do allow for asynchronous votes. Um I'm trying to honestly I can't remember if I have to go back and look at the governance doc, but I think for PR approval type votes, obviously we do those in calls that we did today For votes where it's a formal voting, but we didn't have a vote today. We didn't have no it's no you're right It's more it's more of what's the phrase i'm looking for. Um lazy consensus Yeah, kind of that kind of thing. It's just something like that. But yes, you're right for formal votes We do allow for a week long process So this is this is a proposal to say let's just vote like when we have to vote let's just vote like that so that it doesn't take up all of our time Yeah, I think it's a good change to make. Yeah, but I think we already have that in the governance. Like I will double check though Okay, if it's in the governance doc, I'm okay closing and if it's not the governance doc I would like for the like I would be willing to push these ahead because I just want like smoother. Yeah Okay, those like since we have a whole nine minutes See voting Um So that last bullet point seems to have it the voting process is that you comment on the pr Are a guess vote a no vote or an abstain. Yeah, so I think between these two things between the section right here. I think it's probably covered Okay Okay Sounds good. We can close those docs then. Okay, cool All right This would be my idea first we reach the end of the agenda. Are there any other topics people would like to bring up before I do final roll call Wow, cool. Okay. Um Neil I don't like I've heard you yet. Are you there? Hi, yep. I'm here. Excellent Dan Barker Yep, okay. I think I heard real hit uh dug m. Are you there? Here Excellent. Thank you. Uh, Fabio I'm here. Okay, Joe Sherman Excellent and I heard gem. Is there anybody on the roll call that I missed? I think I got everybody I got Vladimir All right In that case last chance any topics you guys would like to bring up. We have a whole eight minutes left Cool. Okay. And just remind me all Afterwards if you would I'm sorry. Say that again. Can you stay on the call for five minutes? Oh, yeah. Yeah, of course Okay, for everybody else just a quick reminder One week review period slash voting period for the specs itself to go to 0.2 Please look those over when you get a chance And um, with that, I think we're done. Thank you guys very much. Okay. Bye everybody. Thank you Yep. Thank you. Bye Thank you Not for secrets, but for debugging Oh, you want to do that? Okay. Well, tell you what because this is going to be recorded. I let's not annoy everybody else Let me send you a link. Let me send you a link to my private zoom and we'll hop on that. Yes, sir Okay. Talk to you over there. Bye everybody