Hello everybody, if it's Wednesday, it's Warhammer, and that must mean it's time for another episode of Warhammer Weekly. Joining me, as always, is my co-host Tom. Just the two of us tonight. Tom, welcome to like actually being back on the show regularly. Thanks. Um, hello friends. You know, it's funny. Uh, my wife, not so impressed. She's like, what do you mean you have another show? She's like, you've been on every show for the last month. Yeah, well that that used to happen more regularly than it does now. Yeah, we used to be on every show for many years. That's weird. It's just weird. It's hard to even conceptualize that. So I, I, I'm here. Hey, hey friends.  It happens. I don't know what that means, but okay. Oh man, have you never seen Ted Lasso? No, I don't have Apple Plus.  Come on. Folks, tell him in the comments how amazing Ted Lasso is. I'm sure it's an amazing show. I've heard nothing but stellar reviews from everybody who's ever watched it. I don't care. Put it on something I own. I'm not getting more streaming services because I have a limit. Sorry, this is it folks.   Sure, we'll see what we can do. At any rate, tonight we will not be, this isn't, uh, Vince and Tom talk pop culture, although that should be a show sometime. Just Vince and Tom talk about other pop culture related things that aren't worrying.  Yes. Yeah. But no, tonight we're going to talk about New Year, New Army. Uh, we're going to talk about basically the strategies. How do you collect a new army? We're going to rank all of the armies, uh, with a, on a grid of how easy they are to start and collect and get painted and on the table. Okay. So it's going to be a good time. But of course, first, the news. We have a rumor engine. We don't. You don't. I knew I was going to trick you. I, like it was a gamble. I knew that like normally I can buy time by being like rumor engine as I pull up the news. That didn't happen today. So, Hey, guess what? We don't have a rumor engine. I was fooling you, Vince. That's you got me. How about that miniature? The unsurprising results of miniature of the year? Let's talk about it. I'm here for it. Now this I have pictures for. Okay. Let's get into it. Third place. Commander Farsight. Okay. It's fine. It's a towel model. It's fine. I've built and painted this model. Yeah. It's a fine model. Uh, second place and gone. Perfectly nice. I've built and painted this model. He's okay. He's big. No, no, no, no. First place was Lionel Johnson. It wasn't third place. We're going in order, Tom. Third, second, then first. Oh, sorry. I just assume we started at first, no, rather than because they started at first when you will award things. You started the third place and then you work your way up. But there's a 10th place. They did all the way out to 10th in, uh, in the article. No, I started third because the other ones don't matter. They're all honorable mentions. Those weren't, those weren't necessarily in like stacked order, but I'm making a point. Third place. Commander Farsight. Okay. Second place, unnamed bloodthirster effectively, right? And gone. You know, okay? Yeah. First place. Yes. Everything is 40k. Got it. I understand your point. Yes, I know where you're going here. Yes. Everything's still 40k. He could have gotten there organically, Tom, but fine. That's okay. Yes. We didn't even make it into the top three this year. That's how, that's how rough it was. We made it like, uh- I don't know, and Gron could be a bloodthirster, couldn't he? Does he have any type of blood on him? A little bit, but it's nothing like that. Egregious. I, I use him as a bloodthirster to remind me. The biggest problem is he comes on a bigger base normally, but you can rebase him. You can fit him onto a, onto a normal bloodthirster base. So and I did and he is. So there you go. There you go.  And I think they were just throwing a bone to AOS people, but who knows? They were the ones that they should have been. Talia, uh, you know, was, was up there. Your, your marshal wasn't He was not, but I never thought that was always throwing good after bad, right? Sure. I'm not just voting third party there. I'm voting for like the third party local write-in candidate, right? Um, the, you know, because that's like a, that's a, that's a piece for sort of aficionados, not for the masses, right? You mean that, that piece is for actual miniature painters, like professional painters with refined tastes. Yes. Who are like, we're going to make it more at least than what you're saying, Tom. Yeah. It's not a popularity contest. It's, it's, it's for those looking for composition. Yeah. Like this is Lionel Johnson is your latest Marvel movie. It's great. There's nothing wrong with it. It's good. I enjoy it. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Sure. That guy is like the witch. Like it's not going to, it's not, uh, you know, going to bring home the box office numbers, but it's an incredible piece of art. Anyways, uh, both are good. I like both existing at any rate. Yeah. The lion's a cool guy. Um, so yeah, we made then the Nergal Harbinger, of course, you know, was also in there, but yes, we did not have, uh, quite a lot of, uh, of options. Uh, Jamie Lang says in our hearts, ale chugging, Canon guy from the, from the, uh, new Canon is clearly first place. Very nice. Um, yep.   Um, and just like I should insult, you know, award-winning actor of many years and lots of, uh, so you're saying projects, Charles dance. So the game is on himself. What's that? Well, this should like, are you're saying, uh, uh, the actor who played, um, uh, I'm literally rewatching it right now. And I completely like, um, I know. I appreciate that. It starts with a T. Uh, Taiwan. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So we're on the same page. That's who I thought, that's who I thought we were talking about. What does it say is, man, it's obviously him. This is clearly Thailand and like, man, if he was painted in red and gold, it would be literally Thailand. Sure. Sure. It's great. Yes. Charles dance, the name of the actor. Um, at any rate, I'm not cultured like that. That guy from Game of Thrones. Sure. It's fine. Uh, at any rate, sad that we couldn't even make it in the top three how, you know, and look, in my opinion, all these, these 40 K models were fine. They're fine, but like, there's no way Talia isn't better than Farsight and Angron at minimum. If you want to say this guy is like the height of space marine design, right? Like he's like the greatest space marine in history. Fine. Like that's okay. This is a very elegant model with a lot of really nice detail and, and nice dynamism in the pose and stuff like that. So like there, there is things going on here. Uh, and I know no offense to, to Darren, who I'm pretty sure sculpted Angron. Um, but like now Talia is better. That's just, that's just where I'm living. Sorry, Darren. Yeah, I would agree with that. I would agree with that. Like, uh, and to be clear, that's who I voted for. Sure. Like Talia had my vote. Yeah, sure. Uh, all right. So what's next? Yeah, so we, uh, had new store anniversary models. Womp, Womp, Womp. Yeah, I didn't think I'd be so excited. You think that I'd be like, we got it. We got one, folks. We got a new fire slayer sculpt. But this is bad.  Like it's better than, this better than normal rune smiter, which it's the model that you see that stands like this, right? All rune smiders are this. Um, ironically, I converted a rune smiter in almost the same pose as this guy from, uh, one of those, uh, Silver Tower heroes. Because I had a ton of those. Uh, that said, I like, he's not terrible. Like he's fine. I really hate his helmet and his face. I think he looks bad. I think is the back of him is the best part, which is fine. I guess that's what you're staring at. Like, I think the cloak is the best part. I agree with that. Yeah. The cloak is the best part. The fact that he actually has a mustache to go with his beard rather than like just the, all the chins. It's not the Amish Muster. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, he's fine. Sure. Like I just, you know what we needed? Another foot hero, fire slayer. Even if, you know, even better, it's not just another foot hero. It's an alternate sculpt foot hero. That's what we needed.  And now look, you're the store anniversary model. You're here to stay, baby. There you go. Sure. I have much the same reaction. I do not care. All right. What's next?  I will. I will not. I also think that person is pretty dumb for, for what? The world is here. I actually thought about doing an aluminum conversion from that town. Yeah, you put it, I could see that legitimately. That's, that's fine. I just didn't like the face, honestly. Yep. All right, Old World pre-order coming this Saturday. Next week's show will be Old World. We'll be covering, I mean, there's so much to cover. It's going to be way more than one show. Sweet. I am not here. You're not here. No, I'm good. That's what you get, Tyler. Enjoy. No, Tyler doesn't have it either. I've called in, I've called in, so I've called in a hit squad for this. Okay. So at any rate, yeah, it's, you know, I've got here the Bretonian box set, the contents of it, right? So we already kind of talked about these and some past things, but you've got this box set, you've got the books that are the, and this comes with the big core book. There's the Tomb King one, by the way, just for clarity to knock it all out. So you have the two combined armies books, the forces, fantasy, good guys and the ravining hordes, bad guys. You have the two softback encyclopedias, whatever they're called, arcane encyclopedias that are like little expansions for the armies, which have alternate army builds in them and stuff like that, more story-based kind of expansions for the free army. But all the army rules you can play out of the just base index book, which will be as far as I understand the book, like there's no, that's it, that's the book. It's not like this is a placeholder for some later battle tone or something like this is the book. And then the strategy is to use the expansion opedias, which I'm a fan of. I have to say, I actually really like this, that release model, as far as books and armies go quite a lot. The Bretonian one? No, just the concept of like all of the good guys armies, all of the good guys armies are in one book, all the good guys, all of the bad guys armies are in one book. Okay. And then from there, you have a little expand opedias. Now, I will say it's a lot easier to do when you're dealing with like nine armies or whatever they're launching with, right? Some small number versus 24. Okay. Well, you would instead of doing two books, you would just do four books, right? Sure. Instead of doing the wrapping, it would be one for each alliance. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. One for each grand alliance, which makes it much easier. But still, that's I like this release model, like legitimately, I really do. I think that's actually a great choice of having those those like books. I would like it better if the expansion books just completely like had everything you needed and could like tear out the stuff in the main book with all its rules, but I don't know if that's what they'll do or not. So yeah, we'll see. So at any rate, they also, you know, talked about all of the stuff going on pre-order as well. So Tom, you'll be happy to know that all I've already looked at the price sheets. Yep. I already looked at all the price sheets for all the units. Which, you know, it's like, I think going $80 for a unit of Tomb Guard is a bold choice, GW. Sure. Let me know how that goes. And they'll probably going to sell out anyways. I would imagine they're not making a lot. So that's the answer. Right. Right. What I will say is this. Yes, the dice are expensive, but I may have ordered two sets of Bretonian dice for my fleshy reports. So, okay. Fair enough. So, you know, because they're beautiful. Yeah, I, it's so funny. I was like super down on this product and I was sitting there and like looking at the release stuff. And I was like, but I do have an entire army of piles and an entire army of Tomb Kings square base currently. Yeah. And yes, as Hades and Manzac pointed out, the Tomb Guard is 20 models in the box. Oh, is it 20 models? Okay. Okay. Yeah. I feel a little bit a little bit better about that if that's 20 for 80 bucks. Yeah. It's a pretty good deal. It's fine. Because I think they'll have very old models. Yeah. 20 ancient models. Yeah, Artorias Rex. Like the, the, like literally the look, we're not going to get away from this. And it's going to just color every discussion of the old world. Okay. Like I know a lot of people are excited. I don't want to yuck your yum.  I think that a lot, many of the new models exempting one, one model, exempting one model that they've made just this one model. I can't say which one it is. It might be on screen right now. But this, other than this one model from the new models, I think they honestly did a great job of the sculpt so far. Okay. But they are, you just don't like that one. This, this, this one new thing is so God awful. It's hard to even conceptualize. But the fact that so much of this game is going to be run on ancient models that means most people just won't buy much is really shocking to me. And like really depressing when you put one of the new models up against one of the old models.  And it's just like, it's comical. I mean, it's comical. Yeah.  Like the random 20 year old skeletons I was painting last week. Yes, correct. From your old collection. Yeah, from my old collection. These are existing skeletons I've had since their release. That is right. That's right in 2004, January, when I bought them originally. And here they are being released again exactly 20 years later, almost to the same week. So on their 20th anniversary of original production, they get re-released. That's very exciting for them. Yeah, and that cool.  They decided not to refresh, etc, etc. Dude is a combo of metal and plastic and like why he's so iconic. Um, you know, yep. I have one of my closet too. Sure. But like the, uh, the problem here is that like these old models just certainly color your, your perception of the thing. Now, to hit some points from, uh, to, to, to hit some points from the, from the chat here, the Tomb Guard kids from 8th edition. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's correct. The Tomb Guard of 2011. Yeah. Tomb Guard, Tomb Guard and the Spinks and the Snake and the Stalkers. Yeah, they're all 2011. Those are all like 13 year old kids, but everything else from 2000. Those are great kids. Sure. They're fine. No, you were going to model the Spinks today. You wouldn't model it anything like what the Spinks is. It's fine. No, no, it's, it's very Spinks on the inside of its legs. Is it finished? The bracers don't go all the way around. It's very like, it's very static. There's no dynamism to the model. It's just sitting there with like one paw up in the air. Like all of that kind of stuff, even the 2011 ones really show their age, but like the 2004 ones are rough. Probably the best out of the time is the Snake, is the Snake Riders and the Snake. So the guys are actually quite dynamic. I agree with that. And like, and again, like the, the Tomb Guard, like I've built some of those recently and they're not terrible. Their headpieces are delightful. Their weapons are like wonderfully detailed. When you, like they can be postured in a way that they don't look like rigid and robotic, right? They can, they look like they, like they have some of the bone structure of like what you would see in the later skeleton design, right? Like you see some of that like shamblingness of them. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. That's what I would say. I don't know. Sure. But at any rate, I mean, I'm excited about it. I'm excited to do a show. We'll probably focus on the main game for the first show and then we'll intersperse some other shows and talk about stuff like Armies and things like that. So Tom, you may be still locked into an old world show nonetheless. No, no, I don't know. Talking about Tom Kings and Bretonians or something. Yeah, I'll talk about High Elves. Like when you guys want to do High Elves, I'll talk about High Elves. Sure. That's fine. Sure. Yeah, I don't know. Like to be honest, I may end up buying a couple of times the Tomb Guard just because I may want to do like some, like a conversion arm, right? Like that's the only thing that would actually sell me on that because I think that the bits from Tomb Guard are gold, like like plastic gold, just almost every part of that model is fade hat. Yeah. Manzac says just be happy. These kits were designed to be modular and dual kits. Whereas AOS frowns on that. I don't know if I agree with that. Modular, I don't think means what you're saying. It means Manzac. Like being a torso with a set of legs, two arms and a head is not modular make. What it does make is people make a lot of bad decisions when they're putting their models together because they end up having models that look like this, like sort of a store dummy that's been electrified, like a store mannequin. And it just has no actual, yeah, like just this no semblance of how a being would stand. Number one, number two, dual kits are still very popular. I mean, like the entire, like the iron jaws releases was dual kits. The pig builds three pigs. The Brutes build two different kinds of Brutes, right? They still do dual kits all the time and like dual kids. So I don't know about that. Like they're certainly less, I mean, I guess they're less modular in that you can't just like cut it, like replace a different arm, but most of these you couldn't do that anyways because of the weird scaling and other issues with them because they're so goofball. So, but yes, like honestly, the right choice for like everything in this box sadly is just to go buy 3d prints or something. There's like, there are so many better skeletons on the market right now. Like it's not even close. Like just, I'm not trying, like it is what it is. You should not be using these skeletons. They're bad. Come on. Let's be real here. Okay. That's like, I wouldn't, I wouldn't pain if they gave them to me. Yeah. Okay. So, uh, yes, I agree. Someone wondering the new Brett models are beautiful. Like the, the new Lord on Pegasus, the, the new, um, I like the new, the new tuning. Like I love it. Yeah, he's cool. But yeah. Yep. Absolutely. All those guys, great. Like I said, the new stuff they've sculpted, good. Uh, all, all good, all very high quality. Almost all good. Almost. There is one, one standout model. It's very, very, very bad. Could be a set piece.  Um, all right. Let's, uh, I think that's all the news, right? That's all we got. Uh, yeah. All right. Let's, uh, let's go to some pick of the week. Tom, what do you got for everybody? See, right now, I know what you're thinking Vince. You're thinking Tom doesn't have anything. Tom has completely dropped the ball and has come un, or has been unprepared. No, my friends, this is where I'm going to go off on a limb and I'm going to spruke, um, one of my, uh, eternal enemies friend of the show, uh, Caleb Walters. Uh, we talked last week about the, the magnet sticks that Tyler had. Yeah. Sure. It's so funny. I just took him downstairs so I can't actually show you. Um, but in, in light of that conversation, uh, Caleb was like, hey, I have something to send you. And he sent me, um, two sets of sticks that he is producing. He has an Etsy store, dork, dumb gaming or dork dom gaming, depending on how you read his, uh, his handle. And, uh, he has tons of like, uh, token boards and stuff like that. Like he has a fleshy reports one, like a delusions board with like noble deed points and stuff like that. So like already for the new stuff coming out, um, he has a bunch of sticks, um, like in, on like a plate and he like, they're offset in such a way that you can actually like attach them together and they add up to like one less than the inch of, of the connection point.  And so I, I was super impressed with the product. And so, um, I'm gonna, I'm gonna spoof that. So Caleb is doing some good work for us. He also has, uh, some stuff on like battle tone tactics, cards, or like, like, he has like a slinish battle traits and all the battle traits and all the slinish stuff in a depravity tracker chart and all that in these like tight little plastic thing. He has one for like blood tie, they're seraphon.  He's doing some great work. And so I want you all to check that out. So we'll have the link to it in the, in the description below. Very nice. Uh, well, my shout out is going to be to Plastic Crack, uh, the blog, uh, you will find it linked below. He did his, uh, 2023, uh, end of year awards, picking sort of the best of a bunch of categories, uh, from, uh, you know, blogs and, uh, battle reports and all sorts of stuff. And he was also either, now, now I questioned Plastic Crack's, uh, decision-making because he picked us as the best AOS coverage channel of the year. So one, thank you. Two, it makes me question the rest of your decision-making, but I am grateful. Uh, so I wanted to, that is linked down below. If you're looking for, you know, cool Batrep channels, cool blogs, cool anything related to, um, the world of wargaming and AOS, uh, Plastic Crack, check it out linked down below. Um, they are an awesome, awesome, awesome, uh, uh, blog group, people, person, all of it. Okay. Cool. Let's do it. Uh, hey, Caleb's watching. Hey, what's up Caleb? I'm going to be getting some of them sticks from you, Caleb. I want you to know that. Uh, okay. Okay. Well, I didn't, I don't have, okay. Let me stay here real quick. Um, Caleb's will be linked below after the show. Tom doesn't send to me his link in advance as he knows he's supposed to do so that I can link it in the show notes before we start. Tyler does. And so oftentimes Tyler's will be linked in the show notes because Tyler sends them to me early and is responsible. That's behind the scenes. That's how I'm waiting on inspiration and I was sitting here and I was like, Caleb, that's the person. That's the one who gets it, gets it this week. Yes. So you will find the link to Caleb's shop linked down below after the show. Once we stop and I'm able to edit the description. Okay. Uh, there you go. All right. I have to be, I have to be on brand. Indeed you do, Tom. You can't be anyone else but you. I know. Uh, all right. Uh, let's turn to some hobby time. Uh, Tom, your entire workspace is covered in concrete dust. How you doing? Do you paint anything? I'm so angry. Tom is having some work done on the outside of his house, which has led to dust coming inside his house and he does not know this is going to happen. And so his entire hobby area and everything we used to use his painting is now covered in a thick sheet of concrete dust. Including all the models I was working on, which is not an insignificant number. It was actually. May I suggest canned air? It seems like you're going to get it. I'm going to have to, like, I think I'm going to have to like wash these guys, which I don't even know how you do that. So lightly under some, some mid-temperature. Yeah. Anyway, so yes, like, uh, it's funny. I've painted, like I've, uh, I did all the skin and, um, base coat of like four or five of my colors on about 50 or six. No, it's been more than that. About probably about 60 models or so. So making good progress this week. I didn't have any kids. So that's literally what I did for a majority of the week was just worked on that. Give me another week or so and I'll be done with that army or with that, like those thousand points or 1500 points. So, um, and it'll be what we're talking about this week, right? Which is new army, new year, new army. So I am, I am embodying, um, our topic this week. Very good. Uh, that's a good point. Keith Rogers said, yes, put water on the concrete dust. That'll end well. If you're not wrong there, that's, uh, that's not a good recipe. Right. I said, I told him canned air, canned air is my choice. I know, take them, blow them off onto the space. And then once everything's up and you've removed it, don't blow in those space. You'll just tear everything everywhere. Take the model you take it away, you air it, and then you set it in another safe place in a sealed container. And then once it's done, you need to like vacuum your whole workspace. Oh, I need to vacuum my entire basement, but thanks. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, okay. So, uh, yeah, my hobby time. Uh, I am painting a thing that, uh, you'll see next week. How about that? That's what I'm painting. There we go. That's what I'm working on. Uh, I'm sure something that is likely unreleased right yet. I don't, but, but I will show it next week. Something, something that would be, I would be able to show then. Um, okay. So, uh, but don't worry. It's, it's fine. We'll get there. Uh, okay. Very simple and quick hobby time for me with that. Let's move to our main topic. You mentioned it already, Tom. You segwayed. Well, boom, new year, new army, question mark, question mark, question mark. Uh, so Tom, let's talk about it. Here we go. Let's talk January. People have resolutions. It's a thing. Do you make new year's resolutions, Tom? Are you a new year's resolutions person? Uh, historically I haven't been. Uh, it's funny because like I didn't try to do a new year's resolution, but I, like, I've been wanting to implement some changes. And so like coming into this holiday season, I began to implement those.  Sure. Okay. So yes and no. Yes and no. Yeah. I'm more of a goals person than a, than a resolutions. I don't like resolutions, but I'll often think about, you know, so what are my goals over the coming year? Right. Okay. And that sounds like it's kind of, I'm splitting hairs there, but I do think there's a difference. Uh, resolution feels like punitive. It feels like you have to do the thing. I'm not saying I'd have, I'm going to do the thing for sure. I'm saying like, I'd like to get kind of in this area. Right. These are the types of things I'd like to do. But I think at the beginning of the year, you often sit down and go, well, this is my chance to sort of refocus things. Uh, and, and, and one of the things I want to do this year, maybe it's a resolution, maybe it's just a general goal. Maybe it's just an idea amorphously floating in your head is oftentimes people go, all right, I'm going to make a new army. Right. Uh, Dan says, I remember the year of no new army, Tom. Remember all the exceptions he made. Yeah, that was a great year. I did enjoy that too. Um, so I think this is a pretty popular thing to do to think about like, Hey, what are the, do you want to paint an army this year? Is that a goal? A lot of people say I've paint some number of miniatures and oftentimes that part of the way they're going to get there is an army. Right. And I think it's very tricky to pick your new army, especially if you're newer in the hobby. If you've been here a long time, if you've already got like 10, 12 armies, then, you know, paint it, then, then, okay, this probably isn't as much of a question for you. It's just a, do you want to do it or not? You, you know the road, you know the terrain you're experienced, but I think you have to like weigh a lot of things, the cost of the thing, your interest in the thing, your passion for it, the complexity of painting it, all those kinds of stuff. And I think exactly how you pick it, plan it, execute it, and then actually carry through is the tricky part. I think that can often be very hard. Right. So, um, you know, to me, there is a lot of different things you have to consider when you're getting into a new army, but at the beginning of the year, let's just ask this question. What do you think about when you're thinking about doing a new army, Tom? What is it that draws you in and makes you want to say, at the beginning of the year, I want to do an army? Is it just the fact that we always do team armies for the holy events? Or do you have other motivation? No, it's funny that you ask this because there's like historically what I would do is I would make a decision for a new army at the beginning of the academic year, not at the beginning of the calendar year. So I like my new season would start in like August, September of the prior year. Um, normally it's like that's also at the tail end of a GHB is when the new army would kick in. And then I would do like a thousand 1500 points in the fall. I would do another thousand oftentimes going into like the January, February for the second teams event. Oftentimes I would do a similar or related army, like something that's overlapping different models, different portions of the same army.  The irony is that this year I pivoted and pivoted multiple times going into this teams event. And I just realized when I looked at it, that, um, like the factors that I deal with, and this is what led to all the infusion one, I need to have an army that I enjoy the play style. Here's the deal. I was, I was fully committed on trolls because it looked fun. I wanted something more simple. I wanted a lower model. So I was like, I'm doing trolls.    Like I, like I can't, like I can't do that. Like I couldn't run giants if I wanted to. Like that's just not something that I could do. And so, um, Well, at least you got a little more speed there. But sure. Right. That's exactly right. And so like with trolls, I was like, okay, well, can't do. So then I jumped to court and I was like, Oh, tons of moving tricks. It's great in the meta. I have a fun idea. And so it was, it was, I have my play style that I want. And I have an idea of, um, something like a, a niche kind of weird army. Like I wanted to do the dogs of corn, right? And I was like, okay, I got, I have corn dogs. I want to do corn dogs to my conceptual, like what I'm doing. Um, and then I just didn't have a scheme. Yeah, you couldn't put together a struggle. Like, and I, like I had lots of different colors that I put on mine, but I wasn't able to like get the right combo of what I wanted. And so what ended up happening there is that all of it went on the shelf. Like I have a wonderful thousand point army, mostly built, but I was, I was like, no, and I scrapped because I didn't have a paint scheme. And I'm on a time frame. Right. I like, I have, I had that point to have like eight weeks to knock out 1500 points.  It has to be something that I fallen in love with and that I really like and I really want to do. So scratch that. Um, and then flesh eater courts book dropped. It had models that I already had. Yep. I knew how they built. Um, I knew how they painted like I had already started priming and I saw I had an idea.  I was going to be able to do some freehand, do some interesting stuff, but I knew it would be able to be fast. Um, and so, uh, and that was a big thing as well is especially for the first, like the first portion of the army, I wanted to be able to get on the table quickly. Um, and so that was a big piece of it for me as well. And so for me, it's a combination of play style. It's a combination of right army composition. So it's not just play style, but the actual elements within the army. And it's also, uh, having a paint scheme that I can do that I love and that's not terrible. Okay. You know, like the reason why is like, I think about something like your rat cast.  I do.  Yeah, sure. Like that's the only thing that's keeping you. I know you want to do it, but I also know that you don't want to touch that pain scheme ever again. Yeah, correct. No, you're exactly right. Yeah. I mean, it's the nightmare of a pain scheme. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. 100%. No, that's fair. And that's just my point, right? Is that there's so many things bouncing off of one another there. You've got to have a scheme that's compelling. By the way, I would take that even all the way down to basing the number of times I've gotten like a good idea for an army, but couldn't crack what I wanted to do with the bases, right? I like, it has to play in a way I enjoy. I'll say that for sure. That is absolutely required. Like that you'll, you get an army. I, there's been a couple of times, right? I had an army I thought was aesthetically pleasing. And then I played it a couple of times and was like, Oh, this is terrible. I don't like this at all. Right. Okay. And moreover, you have to even understand where do you start? Like this is a thing that we're, we're just, you're just kind of assuming because you know how to build a list and what those, and how to read a scroll and stuff like that and weigh what should be and shouldn't be there. But the challenge is that the challenge is that like, you, you, you can just very easily run into, no, we're going to see Tom's new dog. There we go. Bring her up all the way. This is going to be funny just to watch Tom struggle with a dog. There you go. There's Tom's dog. There's Tom's new dog. Dog's never look at the camera. I don't understand. Look, look at the camera dog. Yeah, this is a cousin of this is a, no, this is a niece of one of yours. Oh, there you go. There you go. Has been maybe. Yeah. Probably. Yes. There you go. Hit like for the dog. Look at that dog's eyes looking at you right now. How could you not want to hit like?  Ridiculous. Yes. Tom got a dog from the same people we go through and it's an adorable dog. It's very cute. Okay. So yeah, there's a lot to think about. That's the point. And then, by the way, it's very easy to lose steam halfway through, right? Like you got it.  What are you actually painting for? So there's a lot going on here. All right. Okay. So let's talk general hobby before we get to the new year. Tom, I know we said we don't make resolutions, but let's talk about some, some sort of hobby goals for 2023, 2024. Sorry, this year, this is the year. This 2024 right now. I don't know if you knew that. It is 2024. Yeah. I was testing you. You passed. All right. Okay. Noob said, so now Tom's models are all covered in concrete, dust and dog hair. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Get a golden. You'll never, you'll never have a model without dog hair in it again. Um, okay. So I don't, I see we're going to get visited over here. You're, you're prompt of your dog. I have no doubt is, is prompted this. Yes. Well, I've had phones on so she can, she could, she can hear, uh, sure. Uh, so Tom, yes. There you go. Chaos. Natalie said, her dog is barking at our dogs. I'm sure that's true. This one can't keep herself quiet whenever she comes down here. This is not just a show about dogs. Let's talk about dogs. All dogs are golden. All dogs are golden. Thank you for sharing your peppers. Absolutely. It's a very cute dog. All right. I love it here. Okay. Uh, yes. Hit like for all the dogs. Okay. Um, all right. So, uh, yeah, let's talk hob general hobby goals. You getting hobby goals for this year Tom for 2024? What are they? Um, I'm going to paint a whole lot of fleshier ones. Um, okay. And so not only for my army for this event and for, um, I'm probably going to run them obviously this spring. I have a couple events coming up, um, a one day or two and I have a two day or nearby. Um, I think I might deal with teams with my son, whether he's going to, like he, if fleshier reports generally is his army. So, um, he'll likely run that this fall. And so the question is, is am I going to double with them on FEC or if we are going to do something. So, okay. Very nice. Um, and they're, they're easy to paint. And so that's like a big win for me. Like that's like a really big win is being able to paint quickly. Um, the one big, uh, question mark for me is honestly the new addition.  I don't. I don't. And so when we have new additions, normally that last like six to eight months moving into that addition, I don't do anything. Normally like I paint very little or I paint only very safe things or I paint like board game pieces or whatever, like the Warhammer quest, you know, games or whatever. That said, uh, because I already know what I'm going to do with, with him for teams this fall. Um, you know, there's no reason not to paint it. Right on. Is there anything else in the hot? Like you're, you're getting all that painted. But is there anything like more general you're wanting to achieve this year? Like, are you looking, you're, I don't, what I mean by that is like, is there anything in the hobby you want to achieve? You know what I mean? Like award-wise at a tournament. Yeah, I'm thinking about it. Something like that. Um, no, no, I like it. It's so funny. Like I've actually dialed back my push for awards. It's just, I don't feel like I have anything I need to bring. Um, and so it's not something that I, I'm, I'm generally pushing for. Uh, that said, um, I, uh, I'm, I'm pushing to go to more events this year. I, I dialed back events quite a bit this last year. Um, and so I'm looking to, to double down. My work schedule has a recurrent like travel week, adepticon week now every year. Which is a real problem for me. Um, and so I'm trying to, like it's my game two years or so. And so I'm trying to reformulate it in such a way that, that I can make, make something different happen. Yeah. I mean, if you don't go to adepticon again, you're going to miss all the late night drafting and commander play. So, you know, it's a lot of work. I know. I'm super like it's heartbreaking, truly. Um, I would love to be there. Um, but, uh, I think, uh, so I'm trying to figure out what different events I want to um, and so that's been like, I want to do more events and I want to do different events than what I've been doing. So, okay. So that's, that's one of my, like, my larger hobby goals. Uh, the other thing that I've been doing, um, pretty militantly for the last year, and I'm going to continue to lean into is I'm trying to build basically everything I am. Just actually like get it, get it at least assembled. So if you want to paint it, that doesn't become a hurdle, right? Just have it. Well, because it's easy to go, well, I would paint this, but I don't want to put it together. I don't want to deal with you. It's not just that because I want to be able to play it too. Like, I want to be like, whether it's pain or not, I want to be able to put on a table with my son because like he's wanting to play more. And so the consequences that I want to play lots of different that I want to diversify. And the best way to do that is to already have a bill pulled out of a shelf and put it on the table. Um, and so I'm like, like rabidly building our, um, between the corn stuff that I just did and all that, just putting things together and then as well, like basing, uh, basing, priming and Xenothol. So like most things I put in are at least like Xenothol. Um, so they don't look utterly terrible on the table. Basically three colors, black, gray, white, you're good to go. Black, gray, white, exactly. Um, so I say all that to say, uh, that's another thing that I've been doing is trying to just increase my playable, like truly playable armies. Okay. Yeah, I got a lot of hobby resolutions this year. Um, a lot of, a lot of goals I want to achieve. Um, I've got a video that's going to be coming out here soon that's going to talk about it in more detail, but uh, I definitely want to go to Monte this year to Monte San Savino in this in November. So go over to Italy. Um, I want to put together a lot more display pieces. There's, you know, things I want to work on and pieces that I want to, uh, continue to push myself on at a, at a competition display level as far as sort of especially larger scale stuff, but I also really want to do want to make an army.  Let's just jump right into it. What's our new army plans? I think you already talked about it because you want to make, uh, flesh of your quartz army, right? Let me ask you, uh, let me ask you another question. Okay. What army would come out? What new army would come out? This could be a complete refresh of an existing army, or it could be a totally new army. Okay. What would release that you would, you would just like sweep the table and be like this right now, this, is there anything like that within the realm of sort of possibility of AOS that you think would, would, would completely get you? Like the obvious candidates, chaos dwarfs, right? Uh, Malarians, dark elves, or they're the umbraneth or whatever you'd want to call them, right? Goblin, sky pirates, uh, you know, that, like those kinds of things, you can, you can, you can be as tall as possible. Kernothi. Yeah, thank you. Thank you, Artorias Rex. Yeah, Kernothi. Uh, things that would be immediate sweeps for me. Um, an order of Aesir. Okay. Like an all witch hunter. Like if they did a city's expansion and it was all witch hunters and, and they'll wholly sort of wore altars and all the, you know, all the religious elements, uh, that would be a sweep for me. Um, for sure. That would be the one thing that would get me.  You think you're picking that up? Yeah, that would be a sweep. If it came with the original models. Yep. Yeah. Some humans and like some of the, the Nightrunner Scaven. Yep. The monkey, the monkey. The Monkey Scaven. Yeah. Uh, I mean, I have all of those models still and I would still sweep for it, right? Um, yeah, I would, I would do, uh, I would, to do all of it, both the, both the models and the terrain. Um, because I would assume that it would be some sweet as like, uh, plastic, uh, interchangeable like houses and stuff like that. Sure. You're saying they wouldn't just throw in the like four cardboard houses you got in the original one? No, no. Uh, and there were more than four, by the way. I have all those in a box downstairs as well. Um, no, so Mordheim would be a sweep for me. Um, uh, Order of Aesir would be an automatic. Uh, things that it would, I would pause. Didn't think long and hard about would be a refresh of, uh, Spiderfang? Sure. Sure. If they did a refresh of Spiderfang, I would, I would think long about that. Um, because I have a lot of bits for like, remember the spiderling? Those weird grot models? Yeah, yeah. I have like 120 of those unbuilt, you know, ready for conversion. Like, my guess would be you have the most of that particular model in the world, of any human being. Maybe. Maybe. I have between 120 and 150 of those. Of the little spiderlings from Silver Tower. Yes. Like, what other human is as insane as you and as collected that amount of those extremely particularly weird model? My intent was to use them as conversions for like shooters and stabbers, like to cut off the weapons and put like shields or in whatever and because they have, like the models have bows and weapons and stuff. So it would be a really easy conversion and then to basically do a gloom spite all spider. And so I could do shooters and stabbers with those. And so if I had to refresh spider models, I would think, um, I would do that. And yes, Tristan, they do indeed come in two parts. Um, and they are unbuilt. Uh, the, um, I would give a long, hard, uh, look towards Malarian, especially if they integrated into dollars. Okay. Like you'd want it to be part of the existing daughter's force. If it was part of the existing daughter's force, um, where they like um, like the shadow legions or something like that, where it would be daughters of Cain and this umber that's like a combined book, uh, I would, I would, I would seriously consider that if it's an entirely new range, I would need to like, I would need to take it in and see if I really want to make that debt. Right. Um, yeah, it's interesting. I always thought for sure that Malarian's force would just be its own thing. And I'm still saying that's probably entirely possible. But at the same time, when we discussed it on a, you know, a show recently, it came up, it was like, well, you know, I would see Tyrion as an expansion of the tech lien forces because it's all luminous. For some reason, I just don't see Malarian and Marathi working together so peaceably as the twins. Right. But that being said, I think I've switched over to assume it's like a straight 50, 50 shot that they either do it as its own force eventually, or do it as an expansion to Marathi's forces. Yeah. Like I could imagine a world where we get like Malarian on his own, Marathi on her own, combined arms force. Yeah. Like you can't have both of the, the rule should be you can't have both Malarian and Marathi in the, in the same army. Right. Yeah. I think only one of them. And like, but it could be, I could see out like an auric war things situation, right? Where it's like, where it, they can be on their own or they can be combined. If they did that, I think I would be more inclined. And then the other one that would certainly catch my imagination is if they did like an elemental destruction force, like that's, that's something that like I could get super into, like fire elementals and earth and these like earth can or whatever. Like I could do something that like there's just strange and new and weird like that. There's a chance that I might just jump on and sweep the table. Yeah. I think for me, you know, I, I'll openly admit, obviously the number one thing, I want to paint a new army this year, like straight up. Like you're going to do escaping. Like we know. Yeah. Yeah. But, but hold on. I want to talk about this first. I didn't really paint an army last year. Okay. Like in 2023. Like I finished a few models, I think, for my rat cast, but I did not actually paint an army all year, which is the first year in quite a while. I haven't painted an army, right?   I added to my flesh eaters over the course of the year. I added to my slanesh over the course of the year. I added to my sons of bed mod over the course of the year to my iron jaws over the course of the year. Right. Like there was lots of expansions of existing forces that I enjoy playing. Yeah. Yep. But I didn't actually paint a new army. And when I was thinking about that at the end of the year, it honestly made me kind of sad. Okay. Because I really like army painting. I think it's very fun. I think I just often have gotten myself into a habit recently of picking schemes that kill my urge to finish the army. Sure. Sure. Whereas, you know, a good example of where this didn't happen. Okay. Like I'm just reflecting on the kind of pitfalls. This is kind of a little pre-talk about the pitfalls. When I did my city's a Sigmar conversion army, so the second city's army that I did, that I have to throw in the bin because I have a bunch of units that are no longer usable. Yeah. Are you talking about your whirlwind's edge? Yeah, whirlwind's edge. Yeah, exactly. With all the 40k bits and terrain bits and custom bits and stuff like that. That was a really, really, really fun army to do. I really loved doing that army because everything was a conversion and everything was unique. It had a lot of single models. It was like very special and it was also a lot of like vehicle and scale model type stuff. So that always made it kind of a fun process because like rusting and weathering things and streaking things is just kind of fun. And so even though it was certainly a complicated paint job, it was fun and I never got burnt out on anything, right? Whereas like the rag cast was such a complicated scheme and took so long that like, yes, I'm very happy and very proud of the army. It's one of certainly the best army I've ever painted looks wise, right? But it's so complicated and so time-consuming that it just ended up being like, I don't ever want to paint another one of those models again. That's what it comes down to. I just don't. And it's so opposite to like my fire slayer slash KO slash city's Jordan scheme, right? I have a scheme that I love so much that literally spans three granola books. Yep. And like I could tomorrow just grab any models from any of those ranges and paint them up and enjoy every minute of it. Sure. Sure. Yeah. And that's just it, right? Like, so I think there's a line we're going to have to talk about here when we get into the pitfalls of it's very easy to get burnt out. It's very easy to pick something that seems like a good idea at first and it's just really hard to finish. And that doesn't necessarily mean quality. It means spending time doing the right things, right? Like where you're actually going to have an impact. So, okay. Doing the hobby work that you enjoy. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Okay. So I want to make a new army and obviously number one on that list. Yes, you already said escaven, right? When the escaven refresh happens with fourth as we have predicted, I'm sure it's going to happen. I don't know what's going to happen, but I'm just, I've planted a flag and I'm now manifesting it into reality. When that occurs, when? I mean, that's my army, right? Yep. Now, that's a heck of an army and like talking about picking a paint scheme. Escaven, this will be the third time really that I would have been doing escaven army from scratch basically because I won't be able to use anything I painted before because basically everything I've ever painted before from my escaven exempting a few characters here and there is crap. Okay. And I wouldn't accept it in an army right now. And so that's a challenge. I have maybe like 10 models I would actually use in a real force now, right? Wow. So you actually need to repaint a new escaven army. Right. Yeah, yeah. Like I wouldn't ever take my escaven to a tournament ever. Ever. I would never do it because I just, I think most of them are painted badly. Do you regret painting at that level? No. It was what it was at the time. Sure. But like, let me, let me push on this a little bit.  It was. Your ogre army was a speed paint? Yes, it was. Would you ever take either of those to an event? No. No. Given that. I think they were speed paints. Of course. Given that, do you feel like you, like, do you regret having speed painted those armies or do you wish that? Okay. Okay. And that's what I, that's what I wanted to kind of lean in on. Like, because what I was hearing is that you've painted something as a speed paint and it's now doesn't meet your standard. No, the escaven weren't speed painted. That's the problem. Well, yeah, I understand that. Like that was a different, a different quality of painting. Yeah. It was almost 10 years ago I painted the vast majority of that army, right? Yeah. In fact, it was 10 years ago I painted the vast majority of that army. That's not wrong. Dear God, that's when I painted my goblins. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was 10 years ago, buddy. Um, so I mean, like obviously I was in a much different place in the hobby 10 years ago, right? I mean, it's, it's just now there are some characters and stuff like that that I've painted more recently because I've continued to always expand the army over time. Um, but I just, you know, I wouldn't, like I only bring things to tournament I'm legitimately proud of that I think I have a chance at winning best painted. Like that's what I'm there for. Right. Okay. Right. Um, Scribbity, Scribbity, I'm coming for that best painted booty, right? Like that's what I'm here for. And the, uh, so like that, that is just not at the level. It's just not. And that being said, I want the chance to do it again, but how do I pick the, how do I hit the right level? Other things that I would go in for, okay? Because it's not the only thing I would go in for. There are other things that they could sway me with. Like if they didn't end up doing Skaven, but they did, uh, something cool in, in some other way. Um, legitimately, if they actually released a full Kislev army for the old world, I, that could pull me in, depending on you like what that would be like. So would you do an old world world army? Yeah, sure. Sure. Sure. I really, I like Kislev. I've always liked Kislev. You know, it's a thing. Yeah. Yeah, I do. It's so funny that you mentioned that it's, because it actually touches upon what I realized. Like it's one of my outstanding, like hobby goals, like my hobby targets. I'm not there yet, but it's something I want to get to. Um, I really want to do like a frozen wastes army. Sure. Like I haven't done, I've never done like a snow slash like cold army. Like all of my armies are neutral or warm. Like they all are temperate zone. Um, and so I want to do a snow army. I just, I've never, I haven't figured out what that army is yet. Um, and so like a Kislev would be fun, but I don't know that I don't ever see myself playing old world and I learned from 40k.  So I was like, I'll do a little thing. It'll be fun, you know, and I'll have a 40k army to play. And I bought it, painted it, did a speed paint just so that I had something to play with y'all. And then I was like, one, I'm never going to play these. Like if I have the option, I'm just not playing 40k over play a OS and two, like I really don't care about this game or these models. So like I wasted my time, right? So like, I don't, so I know better than to buy old world because I know I'm not never going to play. Um, so, but I could see that for you for doing it like a Kislev army. Yeah, sure.  Like I'm going to play, I'm going to play some old world this week. So in advance of the show, I'm not going to review a thing without playing it. I mean, obviously, but um, but the, uh, but yeah, like a Kislev army would draw me in because that would be all new sculpts. It's not like we're just selling some old stuff, right? Right. Um, Jen said, would you pick a new paint scheme based out for new Skaven or essentially expand or replace the old ones you have? I would pick a totally new scheme and a new basing and everything. Like it would, it would be straight new. Um, complete, complete break. How are you going to do new, would you do a different clan? Would you paint it all in a certain clan? Yeah, sure. It's easy enough. I mean, Skaven has, that's, that's what's nice about it, right? As you can just, uh, you know, you, you can just say like this is clan, whatever, whatever that's clan, whatever, whatever, like Skaven or like that, right? So it's, it's very easy to just do a break off portion. Um, so have you thought about what colors you'd want to do? None, not at all. I have no idea. Not even, not even the slightest. I don't know. I don't know. So I guess we'll find out, uh, if, if and when the time comes and then obviously for me again, if they did like a new Mordheim in any way, yeah, sure. I'd be, I'd be in for that. It's continually shocking to me year after year. We've talked about it since 2015. They haven't just decided to print money. Um, when they, when they got kind of in the ballpark with Kerr City, they, they almost ruined themselves. So I guess maybe that's why they know better. They know what's coming once Mordheim dropped. Yeah. They almost destroyed the company with that product. So, you know, good, good times. Uh, I mean, Kerr City was like, yeah, I wish it was Mordheim. Yeah. I understand. Uh, Dan says New York City subway themed. Absolutely. Absolutely. They're all just on the tracks. Just, just ready to go. Um, that's a solid scheme. Uh, okay. So all right. That's kind of our plans. We want to know what your plans are. What are your plans for the, for the, for the new year? Are you planning an army? What are your hobby goals? What are you looking to improve to work on? Stuff like that. If you're watching this later, drop me a comment, put it down there. If you're watching now, hey, drop it over there. Tell us what you, what you're working on this year. Okay. Tom, let's talk about some picking and planning. Here we go. Let's talk about the criteria. We got to lay this down before we do the next portion. Okay. The, the ranking. Okay. Pick and plan. Here's my list. Here's my, my strategy, the concerns and then the strategy for how you go about getting a new army, being happy with it, getting it done and painted and getting it on the table. Okay. Here's what I've got, but I want to know what I missed. Here are the four main considerations you should take into account in my mind when you're thinking about an army. One, price. Okay. And by that, I don't just mean going and buying the kits. That means secondary market availability, 3D print sculpt, alternative sculpt availability, anything like that. Converging costs. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Total price. As, as someone who had to drop $60 per 10, for 10 models for conversions. Sure. Yeah. Okay. So that's, that's one. And, and by the way, you take this into account, if your budget's like, yeah, I got the money. I don't care. Then, okay, cool. Then that's fine. Good for you. That's very lucky. But that's fine. Right?  And so just make sure you understand what you're going to, your outlay is going to be. All right. Okay. All right. Number two, play experience and your tastes. Like, what do they play like? The story you told earlier was perfect. And I'm in the same boat as you. I can't play slow, ploddy, melee only armies. Like I can play melee only, right? Or things that run a little bit of shooting or whatever. Yeah. But like, I don't think sons fall in the same category as trolls because sons are actually quite tricky with the nature of their like objective control. And they're relatively high movement comparison. And I always build them to where they're even faster, right? Because I'll have like the one guy who can run in charge and like yada, yada, yada, right? I'll have broad for plus two movement. And like, I actually build them very mobile, which says everything about my tastes. Sure. Right? Sure. Yeah. And so like what that play experience is going to be, do you want an army that, you know, is a more castley build where you're kind of trying to execute on some plan and then shoot out from your castle? Do you like that style of play or not? Because some armies very much want to play like that zinch new cities, right?  Do you want to like bring your whole army into them on one turn, possibly turn one or two, you know, because that's how something like iron jaws or somebody like that wants to play. I really like that play style. Like I've recognized that I've, I've fallen in love with the ice for our entire army from the top of one. Right. And you know, that it has its perks and it has its downfalls.  We both talked about this, right? Yeah, which is how complicated are they to paint? How hard are the models to resolve to a level you find appealing? And that's it. That's the only metric, right? It doesn't like how complicated is the model for you in your current level of skill, endurance, the amount of time you have to paint all of those things to get them to a level that you are happy with. Period. That's the metric, right? And that's a tough, that can be very tough to understand. Okay. Because there are some models that just really fail at that. All right. By the way, Adam over here in the chat said, I'm just getting started. So my plan, my plans are to be not too hampered by my pursuit of perfection. No commitment to any specific army at this point. Just want to see how I enjoy painting in general. Adam, you've already got a great attitude. That's absolutely right.  If you're an existing advanced painter, there's no such thing as perfection. Perfection is a trap. And I see painters who are newer or lower on the skill curve. It's not judgment. It's just a statement about where they are in their journey, right? Saying, well, I have to paint every model to perfection. No, you're not.  There's still a hundred flaws on that model by the time it's done because you just don't have the skills to resolve a model at the high enough level, right? So all you're really doing is wasting your time when what you should be focusing on is learning, right? And like challenging yourself, pushing yourself in some way, working slightly outside your comfort zone and so on. At any rate, painting complexity. The last one, play complexity. Okay. This is an important one to me. Some armies are just, especially now, crazy complicated to play. They have like so many moving parts, right? Tom, I know, you know, we were talking about the old world. The real question with the old world is not, do you want to play a rank and flank game or do you want to play some version of probably Warhammer fantasy battles, you know, eighth edition or whatever, right? It's how far are you willing to go to not play with battle tactics? I mean, it's true. It's true. But like it has my attention. But like play complexity amongst some armies in AOS has truly skyrocketed, right? And I think that's something you need to think about.  It plays the fundamentals, right? I have a few, a small number of game pieces. I have a small number of things I'm trying to resolve. So I'm playing the fundamentals, the movement game, the fighting game, picking my targets. I'm not worried about balancing the 17 different special rules. And all my different crazy units are trying to resolve simultaneously, right? I do think we've pushed the game to set to a point where it is just like so complicated now in some cases, as far as what's up. Yeah. And I'm feeling that even with FEC as weird as that's about unit functions and just timing. And like it is that it is one of those like timing ballet dance armies. Yep. And I generally don't like those as much. Yep. Like I like just because they are a because there's so much else to balance right now in the in the game. I'm hesitant. So I'm going to certainly be playing those locally be playing those at a lower point level. And then see if I want to scale up 2000. Makes sense. Makes sense. Yeah. I mean, and so understanding the complexity scale is something important. Now, let's talk about how you discover this stuff. Okay. Because that's easy to say you might look at me and go, yeah, Vince, okay, let's say I think those things are all important. But how do I know those things, right? Especially if I'm dealing with a new army, if I'm a newer player, right, whatever, whatever. All right. So price is easy, right? Price is just you can look on the website and see how much the kits are to buy. You can go to my manufacturer in search for 3d print alternatives or whatever. You can go, you know, Google around or ask on social media, hey, what are some fun alternative sculpts for this army? Like earlier people were talking about all sorts of alternative sculpts for skeletons and stuff. There's lots of producers who've made alternative undead. It like for me, price is a big deal. And that sounds silly given how much I often like historically bought and like stored and how many I have in my basement, right? And yet like one of the things that gets me is that when I do see a wonderful bundle at a good deal, like at this point, like launch, like if I see a FOMO box drop, and I know it's an army that I'm going to want in the future, that I'm planning on collecting at some point in the future, I will buy it without hesitation and throw it in my closet. Like my sole blight, I ended up building, right? But I bought those like a year and a half, two years ago. Like it was generations ago. This Christmas, or you know, it's in the gloom spite bits, they dropped the, I'd never built my all squig army, but I bought the squig, squig, squig lanch, you know, battle force box last year. And I'm sitting on that at some point, I will do all squigs after the hype guys down. Same thing with OBR, this holiday season rolled around. I want to do OBR at some point, it's the last of my death armies, like I've cycled through all the death armies over the last three years. And it's the last kind of hold out. I'm looking at a tomb king version army, not sure exactly what I want to do yet. The reality is, is that OBR, like they had a wonderful battle force box drop, you know, when you can get them at a great deal, especially when you can get them at those markdown percentage off prices, right? From secondary, you know, from, from, uh, retailers, like that price will move me on an army to throw something on the shelf and just wait. Yep. Right. Yeah, that's exactly right. So you got to like look around. And I agree. Danny Smith said, you used to be able to look on the website to see how much kids are now the new site is painful to try to navigate. Oh, Danny, you're not wrong. That is true. But conceptually, you can look at the website and understand the prices and things like that. But yeah, don't forget to look at secondary sources, you know, online stores and retailers that are offering discounts, older bundle boxes, like search around for those older bundle boxes and see if any of your friendly local game stores have them, you know, support those kind of people if you can, especially if they haven't, they haven't made a deal, that kind of thing. Okay.  You can do that with proxies, you know, just moving bases around or grabbing appropriate models from another range and just saying like, these are my cash orders or whatever, right? You can do that on TTS, right? You can just drop all the models in, run them on TTS. Okay. So there's lots of ways to run test games where you don't have the actual army, right? So I think that's like a step people often don't do, but they should. And in a similar vein, painting a test model, right, which is some of the things you were sending me that made you realize your corn army wasn't going to work. You didn't just go in and start doing a whole unit. You were doing like, you know, one model, two models, something like that, right? Yeah. I look for something that is, when I look for a test model, this is a helpful thing because like there can be bad test model. I look for something that has all of the techniques that you're going to do on your final model. And so for example, like when I did my flesh eater model that I sent around when I tested on him, I did, there's a couple of different skin washes I wanted to try. And so I did two of those to that step. And then once I figured out which one I liked of those two, I went to the one that I liked and did the final like freehand burn skin effects. And one of the, like I wanted to make sure it had hair and bone and all these different elements that I knew that some models would have more of or less of, but I wanted to make sure to practice it to make sure that I could, like I could hit all of the techniques in a single practice model. Yep. Exactly. So you want, like make sure it's representative of what your color scheme is actually going to be. Take a couple of swings at it, right? It doesn't have to be one model. By the way, that doesn't mean you have to use multiple models. You just keep painting over the same guy. Sure. Sure. Well, I like to like set them side by side, especially when there's like, like, like subtle differentiations in skin and stuff like that, right? That I want to. You can certainly do that. I'm just saying you don't have to. Don't feel like you've got to have five different models to do five different test schemes. You can do one, take a picture of it, do another one, prime that, reprime that guy, take a picture of paint it, take a picture of it and repeat.  He's still right here rocking and rolling. He's never been stripped. Still looking good and fresh. Got that detail. He's ready. Larry's ready to go. And so, you know, like he's been completely primed over, I don't know, 30 times. Okay. So, you know, paint is pretty thin. So yeah, basically run tests of both the army and the paint. And then watch battle reports of the army. That's another thing you can do. Watch other people play the army. So, lots of good dot report channels out there. Go watch people play the game. I would also recommend just to get a feel for it. Rob's weekly rundown shows are wonderful to talk about like what lists are showing up in various metas across the world and how those lists are performing. Like there are multiple times where I went, like I wasn't always watching his show. Sorry, Rob. But I would often go in, especially when I'm wanting to explore some of the range of an army that I haven't played. What I'll often do is skim the shows to look for results and then look for how those armies played specifically regarding like list composition just to get a good feel. Also, you can be involved in communities that are actively discussing it. There are tons of WhatsApp communities out there. If you haven't discovered this like hidden corner of the AOS world, I would highly encourage you to jump on WhatsApp and start hunting for some of those communities. Because they can be super helpful just to listen to how other people who are playing those armies multiple times a week are experiencing those armies. Just to make sure that you're in the right space. Yep. Yep, absolutely agreed. And then finally, compare to past experiences. Like once you've done that research or you read the scrolls or you have a general understanding of how it works, either through running some tests, watching battle reports, listening to material on it, talking to other people who play the army, all these things, right? Then like compare to your past experiences and be honest with yourself. Do you like this kind of thing? Like really, you know, interrogate your own sensibilities, as it were, right? Like I have come to learn. I like high mobility, speedy, sort of like punchy armies, right? Or tricksy armies. I'll take either one. And so like, you know, original recipes, Lanesh, as it used to be before they broke it, iron jaws, skaven, all these fit my play style. And I enjoy them. That's the last I built. I love that you say that. I love that you say that about iron jaws, because I remember when I was like, I think you would really enjoy it.  And I was like, no, no, I really think you would. And now it's one of your most beloved arms. It is. It really is. I mean, that city's list I built, that city's army that I built was like that, because it was all, you know, vehicles and fast moving stuff, you know, flying things, all things that don't work like that anymore and can't be a legal list anymore. But that's how it works. Well, I mean, it's the highest compliment, right? When Trent and Ellie, when we were playing game five, when I played game five against Trent and Ellie at NashCon, and we're setting up our armies, and he was playing, you know, like a very, he was playing the standard Varengard nights, the Everchosen nonsense, the 22 inch grasping plate build, it was just like whatever. And he, and he set up the army, we played out the game, and he ended up winning it all came down to like one dice roll, I needed to roll three up to win the game and didn't, I rolled a two. And, you know, so he, he won, it was a good game.  That was pretty good. Wasn't it bullshit?  Yeah, I wasn't going to say that word, but yes, correct. That's, that is what he said. Yes, that is the direct quote. But you know, like that's, it was a fun thing to like build a, a, you know, an interesting army. So you compare to your past experiences. That's why I say, if possible, you know, hobby Daddy S, what if you have never or barely have played a war game before? Yeah, exactly. It might not always be possible to compare to your past experiences. So in that case, you need to rely on other people. So again, that's, or, or your, or yourself through tests, you know, run those test games, set up some bases, run some proxies with a friend, or play on TTS. Or if you don't, if you're not even at that point, yeah, just go watch battle reports, right? Watch how people played the army, watch how they move around, what are the things they do? What are the tricks they do? You know, go watch season of war or whatever and find where they've covered that army or something like that, like a high quality bat rep channel, you know, and, and look at those things or, or you can still, by the way, talk to the communities like Tom mentioned the WhatsApp groups, like yeah, jump in one of the WhatsApp groups for that stuff. You can get dialed into those like those people are always more and rare ready and raring to share their opinions about the army and how it plays right there. They're always looking to make more converts and they will, they will share it with you. Boondale says, how do slaves to darkness play? Not very well right now. No, I mean, they're really good. Sure. Sure. Yeah, the question I should, that was, I would, I was debating on my joke between not very well and how much do you like Varengard? Right now it's the army's in kind of a rough spot right now. It's, it's a very big army. It is primarily a melee army and it's meant to be like a versatile hammer and anvil chaos force. Like that's what it's meant to be. Like a classic hammer and anvil force. It's primary to troop types being cast warriors and cast knights. One of the most like sort of clearly delineated hammer and anvils in the history of the game right now. How well it actually achieves that that's, that's a different sort of situation. It's a very big book. It has a lot of different things going on in it. So it's hard to really sum it up. It does have quite a lot of variability to it, but it's all going to run some version of like melee hammer and anvil or punch, counter punch or whatever that kind of thing. However you want to think about it. For the most part, I suppose there are a couple of really weird armies like snake boy spam or something like that where you're just trying to like overwhelm them with moral wounds and recursion, but those kind of skew lists are never really what I would recommend. Those, those aren't the meat and potatoes of the army, right? And like if you come to an event, that's not how, yeah, that's not how they run. Danny Smith says, I also prefer armies that have a variety of viable builds instead of just one that works. Anything like that in AOS. Yeah, I mean, realistically, most armies in AOS are like that. Like we, I know I just got done sort of rallying against slaves to darkness for sort of having a one viable thing right now. But the reality is most armies do have multiple paths to victory, multiple sort of lists that work. There might be some pieces that are shared across the board. But you know, when I think of like, when I think of most of the armies, they're up around the top two thirds of the armies. So like everything that's in the fat middle up, right? Most of those have multiple paths to victory. So like Gloomspite gets lots of different constructions I've seen that can be successful. Skaven, lots of different constructions I've seen that can be successful. And that's like, that army's actually in the trash when right wise, but still lots of different constructions. You know, Nurgle, yeah, sure. Absolutely. Corn, many different builds, including some truly, truly gross, gross, gross builds that are, that are really fun. Probably not true with Salanash. Like there's probably one build of Salanash that's Yeah, I don't want to talk about Salanash, but yeah, sure. I mean, like Orak Warclans. It's not all armies. It's not all armies. No, I understand. As I said, most, most of those armies in the top two thirds. You know, Orak Warclans, certainly lots of different viable builds there across that book quite quite a lot actually, just because of the fact to be able to go iron jaws, cruel boys, big law kind of situations, and so on. I mean, there's more, but that's those are those are all ones that immediately popped my mind as being quite versatile in their, in their options. So yeah, there's a lot. Even Soulblade Grape Lords, I should say, and OBR. I think OBR for as boring as much as I hate it actually does have multiple quite viable builds. So there you go. Okay. Tom, are you ready for a project? Oops. Always. Okay, Tom, let's do it. Here we go. We're going to rank the armies. Hold on. Before we get there, I want to add something. There is another factor that I forgot to mention that will sometimes sell me on an army. Sure. And that's, it's a display board. I know that may sound utterly ridiculous, but it's like I have a concept for something that I want to like writ large, right? Like that can drive an army. So for example, like I wanted to build this like mausoleum on a cliffside board. Like it was just something I wanted to do. I had the 3D print. Like I'd had this like Vince, how long was that concept in my head? A long time. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. A couple of years at least. Sure. Like, yeah, probably two years. Sure. And so, and I finally like got it out, got it built. And like my army was vaguely related to it, right? Yeah, sure. Sure. A bunch of zombies in sanitarium, right? Like, so what made me build that army was actually the board, not the army. No, that's interesting. Sometimes that can actually drive your creative decision, right? When you like you want to realize something else in the broader hobby, you get a cool idea for a basing scheme for a display board for, for whatever. Yeah, yeah, I got it. I got you. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. All right. Very good. Now, now, gosh darn it. Let's get into it. Okay, Tom, I have here an axis, this acts of sorts. And here's where it, here's how it works. In the top left is easy to play and low cost. Yeah. So that's like, we have done this. This is not new. It is not new. We're redoing it with now taking the current world into consideration. Okay, like, like, where we currently sit, we have done this project before, but I felt this was a worthwhile thing to update. Okay. So anything, the closer something gets to this top left corner, the easier it is to play and the lower the cost to collect it. Right? Now, as you move right, the price increases. Yeah. Okay. As you move down, it becomes more complicated. Yeah. We've had a lot of new army books come out. Things have changed since the last time we did this. We've had new offers, new prices, new options in the market, things like that. So I thought we'd take another crack at this and see where we land. Okay. Sure. Sound good? Yep. All right. By the way, if you haven't hit like yet, please do so or subscribe, do all those things. It's cool. And then you'll be cool. It will increase your coolness, for sure. All right. Let's get amongst it. Here we go. Tom, I'm going to start with Aideneth Deepkin. That's where we're beginning. Where are they going? Where are they going? I'm going to say they're going to be blind green. Uh-huh. And they're going to be towards the harder cost is where I would put them. I agree. I think Aideneth are in a rough spot. I think they're actually quite hard to play. Uh, I think they're actually barring sharks. Barring just shark spam. Sure. But then how long is that going to last? Yeah, that'll last for another couple of weeks. Yeah, war scroll, battle scroll. Right. Which is due anytime now. And we'll probably break that. So. No, it's higher cost. Higher cost. Yeah, it's worth it. Right side is higher cost. Yep. Yeah, I moved it over. Yeah, yeah. You're a little behind, but yes, it's over there. Yep. Okay. So yeah, it's expensive if you want to actually build up the whole force. Yeah, there's no way to really buy it in bulk. Although I will say this, a lot of that may be available. A lot of that may be available. What? Used. Like Aideneth just seen better days, right? Sure. And so like if you had a really popular army that no one plays anymore, there's a lot of it on the secondary market. Now you don't want to bank on that. Sure. But that's how I ended up. It's not popular enough of an army to be heavily represented on the secondary market. That's the issue. But that's how I ended up with an entire Aideneth army. Sure. Right. Is that like somebody's secondary market was and they're like, I don't want this anymore and told it at like pennies on the dollar. Yep. And now I have 18 eels. Sure.  Okay. It is both expensive and pretty hard to play. It's not a lot of representation of 3D print or alternative sculpts available out there. It's a lot of unique ish models. It's not to say there's none. I'm just saying like it's not a lot. And some of the models are really unique. Like finding a big giant replacement turtle is not the easiest thing or whatever. Right. That kind of thing. Sure. Okay. Okay. Cool. Night Haunt. Where are they going Tom? The ghosty boys. I'm going to say they are middle. They are on the lower cost to collect. Agreed. But I would say that they're probably firmly in the like middle middle. Yeah, I agree. I think they're probably hard to play. No. Like they're like it's not a like it is their problems are not like play complexity for why they're experiencing what they are currently in the map. Right. And in general, it's pretty easy to to collect them. You don't have a painting on this matrix. I don't. But what I would say is that they're really easy to paint. Sure. They are one of the easiest. I would I would love a Y axis or a Z axis. Sorry, I apologize. Yeah. A Z axis of paint. But I couldn't figure out how to make that work on this this thing. No, I understand. I understand. I agree. They are a very easy army to paint. What I would say, Vince, is I think you might actually enjoy doing that. Yeah, the models just don't grab me. I have painted some night on like I have some because I believe they're so light. It's just yeah, it doesn't really grab me. Yeah, I think they're like there's a lot of night on the secondary market. Anything that was ever in a starter box ever effectively always has cheap secondary options for a lot of its stuff. And even the new models that arena of shades box was like printed into the ground. Like those were were out there in profusion and that's all your new model.  Everything else has been printed in like combo boxes. Yeah, I think that like I do agree Howard says is saying they should be harder to play. They have a ton of war effects. You have to keep together while you move your attack pieces.  I'm not going to agree. So I moved down here a little bit. I think they're so firmly and maybe the middle tier here in some way. They're not, they're certainly like harder armies to play as what I'll say. This is, it feels pretty firmly mid. You're not tracking a huge number of different resources or weird special abilities or, you know, anything like that. So yeah, okay. Yeah. All right. Flesh eater courts. They're brand new, Tom. I still have the old book paint picture because I can't be bothered, but at any rate, flesh eater courts in their new incarnation. So the new book, okay. Classically, this was one of the cheapest armies to get together. I'm going to say this. I still think it's one of the cheapest armies out there. This is why, by the way, I pulled the trigger and I went all in on them is because I realized that my local store in their used model section, they had like more horrors and flares and ghouls that I could shake a stick at. And so I just bought them literally in bucket loads of just old used models because there were just so much out there. And I had also followed my own advice and bought like four getting started boxes years ago, back when they were like $85 and then marked down by the percentage. And you've got all the units in the army at that time. And so it's actually a really cheap army to build. And some of the most popular builds are just 18, 18, which again, super cheap. What I would say is this, I think that it, I think it's going to be a little bit more complex than most people like what I'll say is this, you are balancing lots and lots of bubbles.  But it's also like it has, it lends itself to like a push forward and smash army. And so I still think that it, I think it's fairly straightforward. Like it can be fairly straightforward. There are some builds that are more complex, but it like the most popular builds will be fairly straightforward.  So I, like, I think it's an easier play style. Yeah, I agree for the most part. Now in the old book, they would have been like up here in the corner. They would have been maybe the absolute corner keeper. Now that I think they're down here, they got a little bit more complicated. They got a little bit more costly. You know, if you want usher on or something, like that's a costly box, right, or will be theoretically. I mean, I have no idea what it's going to cost. But like, I also know what they price those big characters like that. It's probably like 130. No, I bet he's like 160, 180. I'm like, you really think so? Yeah, I bet. No, I think he's 130. Like Kali is not 180, right? It's fine. He'll be crazy. That's a lot of money for one dude. Okay. No, it is. It is. It is. So like bats will probably be 70 bucks for three. Something like that. Probably 65. Yeah. Sure. Sure. Now, now the nice part is you can buy, they did do the release box. And that release box does come with all the new stuff. I mean, not usher on obviously, but like, it comes with more big nights. It comes with new crypt guard. You probably don't need more than a unit of 10 of those ever. So that's great. You're covered there, right?  So like, I actually, you can take the old getting started box, buy the new FEC launch box. And like, you're in a pretty darn good place for having a lot of what you want, right? Or buying two of the old getting started boxes or something. So that's not too bad of an investment really. Now, as well, flesh eaters have a huge amount of good representation in the secondary and 3D printing market, right? As you just said, lots of places where you can pick these up secondhand, but there's also tons of alternative sculpts for like ghouls and horrors and things like that.  Um, originally it was my bar golf and now I'm using them for my quarters, right? Yep. My, uh, my, uh, flares. So same here. Okay. You know, my, I have like a hue, what, like 63 D printed ghouls, right? Yeah. Okay. So I did it right. I still think it's here. It's still a very good choice in my mind. It's also what we'll comment on the paint thing also in a much like a honestly, a pretty easy and fun paint. Like I, you asked, do I regret to be painting my flesh eaters? No, it was great fun. Yeah. I'm, it's so funny. Like I can't wait to start painting and after I cleaned up down there because like I'm, like I was fairly close to being done of like the difficult aspects of the paints, right? And I was getting ready to move into the fun part of paint ski, which is doing all the burns in the free hand and stuff like that. Yep. Okay. All right. Uh, okay. Uh, yes, that is true. Jen asked who said, we also don't know what their Vanguard box will be if they have a really, they have a really good start collecting, but if the Vanguard gets fire slared, it'd be a lot more expensive or stuff. Absolutely. As an aside, if you can, if you can find a start collecting box for flesh eaters, buy it right now, buy it now. That is a, that is a buy. That is a hard buy in many local game stores. I was in a couple of game stores right before the holidays, like, you know, picking up gifts and stuff. And I saw a couple of them on the shelf in various game stores around me.  Uh, you can get them. You can find them, buy them because they are worth their, they are worth their box weight. Yep. Okay. Lumineth, Lumineth realm lords. Tom, where are they going? Where are they going? How close to the bottom right corner are they? That's the only question we need to ask. They're certainly closer than Ida. Yep. I would probably put them at, I would have them touching the high cost, like that edge. Okay. Like, yes, they had a getting started or they had a battle force box last year. Um, but it wasn't good. Um, like there were just dead units in the box that you would never play. So I would have it touching the right wall and probably have it half a book down towards the. Yep. I think I agree with that completely. Honestly, that, that was my same instinct. I think Lumineth are really challenging army to play there. You have a lot of stuff to manage. I mean, maybe there's like a cow stone build that's a little easier, right? You have a lot less units, but like Lumineth as concepted by the army is just a lot of very complex interactions. You know, I think back to like Benjamin's, uh, uh, you know, magic phase where he had like his 12 sequence spells he was trying to cast in, in particular order, right? There's a lot of things that they're going for. They are expensive. They are hard to play. They're a very fiddly army. They are a very weird castle that also can't play as just a castle and like it's just, they're, they're all over the shop. Like they're a weird, weird army and they're hard to win with. They're hard to play. They're hard to navigate. They take a lot of mental energy. I think they're just exhausting for the most part and they're very expensive. Availability of alternative sculpts out there in the market isn't super high. I mean, certainly you could just use like old high elves for some of the stuff. Like my blade masters are just old sword masters or something. Like I'm not saying that's impossible, but there's not a lot out there. It's not a deep well unless you just do generic elves, right? In which case that's going to be very hard when it comes to like fox spirit, shooty guys and cow stone mountains and, you know, the twins or whatever, right? Like there's just a bunch of weird unique things. So even if you replace like elvish archers and elvish spearmen, the wardens and such with their, their things, it's just, it's problematic. Artorias Rex said Lumeneth needs a foundational rewrite. I tend to agree. And then on the painting tip, yeah, they're also a pain in the took us to paint. Like they have got to be one of the hardest armies to get into, not maybe the hardest, but one of. Yep. As one that has a little army, I agree. Yeah. Keith Rogers said I was sad to sell my LRL, but happy not to have to deal with my opponent's reactions to them anymore. Nice. I love it. Yes. Yeah, obsidian crane said there is an increasing amount of proxy stuff in the 3d market. Yeah, it exists. It's not zero. I mean, none of these things are zero. It's just not as common as like flesh eaters or something like that, right? Where you really have things that are quite dead on for just about anything you'd want because some of their stuff is so weird and things like that. Okay. Cool. All right, let's let's grab some ogre maw tribes, shall we? Ogre maw tribes. Where are we going here, Tom? Where are we going?  They are easy to play. I agree. The six monster truck build is super popular. It's super straightforward. And it's not so expensive like back, you know, especially when you could get like the combo box with the morning bang and your monster trucks for the getting started. That was not a terrible buy. So if you're wanting to do monster trucks and there's actually a still a lot of monster trucks out in the like secondary market as well from prior generations of them being successful. So I mean, these guys have a very high secondary market availability because they've been around forever, but the sculpts are still good. You know, I picked up a lot of my ogre army second hand when I bought it. Like I casually considered an ogre army this fall because of how much was out in the secondary market and what I had. There are a lot of 3D prints and alternative sculpts available. So I'm actually just amazing ones. There's there's some really, really, really wonderful alternative ogre sculpts out there from some of the like larger 3D printing houses and stuff like that. I'm pretty sure I don't remember exactly who's all done them, but there's like, there's many alternative entire ogre lines I've seen that are just fantastic top to bottom. So, you know, like whole pirate ogre ranges and stuff like that. So you've got lots of 3D print, lots of alternative sculpt availability, and especially on the gut buster side of the house, especially that, right? Yeah. Kyle Nelson says they have a lot of fine cast, the number of fine cast models should be a consideration. Yeah, but again, like most, there's not actually that many. Like, yes, there you're talking about the fire guy, you're talking about the butcher and the slaughter master, and you're talking about the Yeti's and Man Eater's. Is that right? Did I get them all? Because yeah, the gorger's been replaced now with the new cool gorgers. I think I'm right. I might be missing one, but Kyle, you can tell me if I'm wrong on those. I think those are the fine cast ones. But in most cases, you have easy alternatives for those. I didn't use like, you just, you can, like it's not hard to just proxy in any of those things because all the ogres look similar. Minor adjustments, three prints, alternative stuff out there, so much. Yeah, add some bits on, you know, I didn't use a hunter at the time because when I, when I built my army, they didn't have some of the newer hunters you can use. They had the old crappy fine cast hunter. I just converted one out of a regular plastic ogre and just put big spears on his back and gave him the appropriate stuff. And there you go. Like it's cool. So, you know, a lot of them are not, it's not as bad and there are so many options out there. And on the play side, ogres, it's just so much fun and easy to play. It actually is an army. I have a great amount of fun playing. I don't put them on the table very often, but I do quite enjoy them. I will say I'm more of a gut busters player than I am a monster truck player. I've never really liked the stone horns and thunder tusks and stuff.  I like big units of glutton's and stuff like that.  It is really bad, really bad. And so, you know, like I think ogres is just again a really strong choice for a new player. Extremely easy to play, very low cost comparatively. Great choice for an expansion army as well.  And on the painting side, very forgiving. Right. So, okay. Cool. Next up, let's keep going. Some of these are the old book images, by the way, because I couldn't be bothered to update it.  And I was like, oh, I'm not updating them. It's fine. You get it.   Okay. Okay. Defend yourself. Yeah, they're not expensive.  Let me say it that way. They're not cheap, but there are still a number of bundle boxes out in the market. So like I would drop them down play style out of the easy to play. I would put them in the middle of the middle. I have moved them to the middle of the middle, but just slightly down right from that. Sure.   And so it's a fairly straightforward, if you're doing trolls, you're literally just pushing things forward, just all the meat straightforward. But again, none of it is really low cost. There've been a couple boxes, bundle boxes, there've been some combat patroly stuff, like the, the armies of renown, like the dawn bringers book one group, they had a box there, we had a box for trolls and in book two. So there've been a number of these like value boxes that I've dropped recently. Last year we had the squigs, squig lanche. I mean, look, we have had so many battle force boxes of gloom spike gets. It is crazy. Yep. Like, I think we've had four or five over the years. It's nuts. Like more than any other army. These guys show up almost every year. Okay. Yep. The only reason I think they're kind of higher on the cost, because I agree with you, lots of battle force boxes and bundle deals, lots of secondary market availability, like things like shooters and stabbas and stuff like that, crazy secondary market availability for your main goblins, right? Going back years and years and years and years. Okay. Like all of that is true. My issue is I think the cost on them, like the left, right axis is really going to swing back and forth depending on how you decide you want to collect and play gloom spike. Okay.  Like, that's going to be a pretty penny all told. And spiders. Yep. Yeah. Right. Like NKL said it's a three-arm read book. No, it's a four-arm read book because you forgot trolls. Right. And so, like, I don't even believe in the spider part, but sure. I understand the little Iraq Rock dude is fine. I like Iraq Rocks, but some people want to run all spiders. It's not good. They're wrong. But yes, but they exist. You're right. But that's my point, right? Like that's, that's where that the more the wider your aperture goes or your, the larger your appetite gets for gloom spite, the more this book just shifts, right? Right. Because it's just hard to have everything. Yeah. Even if you start going in alternative prints and stuff like that, it just gets more and more and more expensive, right? To get everything. I've been buying gloom spite or what is gloom spite for the better part of a decade. This fall, I meaningfully added to that army by adding this, which I only had three of previous. Now I have like 15 plus trunk. But the point is, is that like, I've been buying and collecting gloom spite models for a decade and still didn't have those. Yep. That's right. That's right. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Rule of cool. Is this what you want me to do? Go something like this? Here. That's gloom spite. Make it real like fat and long and then it could be anywhere in this spectrum. Yeah. Yeah. I could do that. Okay. There we go. That's, that's, that's what their spectrum is. All right. Let's keep moving. I will say, if you have a more constrained appetite, like I'm just going to click squigs, then not only can that, but they can be an easier paint too, depending. Yeah. So, okay. Bone Reapers. Ossiarch Bone Reapers. I think these guys are really interesting because to me, they're, they're actually not that hard to play. Like I think as an army, it's like, there's a little bit of stuff you have to keep their command abilities in mind that they use now, right? Yep. But they get a lot easier once we got rid of RDP and they just basically got unique command abilities that they can fire off, right? Like the new version of this made this a lot easier. Yeah. Yeah. It's not that complicated. Oftentimes, like a lot of the lists, you're just largely relying on, on small units of tough dudes, stalkers, or a mortis guard, or more ghast, Arakai, or Arrakai, or whatever, you know.  And you're just like doing your plus three movement command and, you know, just remembering the unique command for that, that you want to execute at the right time. It's like, it's just using command abilities, just playing with a sort of pretty straightforward military first thing. It's a fun, it's a fundamentals of, of warfare, right? Like it's the basics. Exactly. And, and so like, to me, they, they, the new book actually moved them quite a bit up the chart here into the lower complexity, which I like. I actually, this is one of the few victories I think we've had from a complexity scale over the course of 3.0, where I looked at the new book and went, that got better on the complexity scale by a meaningful amount, right? Like your units are often just good and they work and they do the thing. Great. Right. They have very clearly defined delineated roles and so on. Now, cost wise, they're, they're expensive ish. You can go to your local store and pick up a battle for today. That's mostly usable. Yeah. Yeah. That's what I'm saying. They're expensive ish. They don't, they don't belong over where luminous are. Honestly, they're probably like here sitting over gloom spite, not because of the size of the army like gloom spite full on would be over here, way to its right from spite, you know, one force would be over to its left. But like, you do have some more newer, more expensive kits. Do you also get in a gosh? That's a big chunk of change. If you end up picking up the big boy for the force, right? That kind of thing. And a catacross. And a catacross. And an arcana black. Yeah, exactly. Right. And so like, you know, you're getting more gas, you're getting all these things. Like it can be, it can be you convert the entire army from tomb kings, that's, you know, the eternal questions that you have on an moose dough says the new book for OBR made them a lot easier to play. Just a shame what they did to my poor goth is our harvesters after the fact. Yeah, you're not wrong. You're not wrong. That's right. But I like them now. I think they're here. I think they're actually a pretty paint wise. By the way, they're actually not that complicated of a paint job either. Anything skeletons are just generally not that hard. Like they're skeletons. They're bones. Paint them some kind of bone color, wash them, dry brush them, paint the armor, done. Right. Like it's not, not exactly a huge lift here. Okay. Yes. Cool. All says 24 inch bubbles. Ain't exactly difficult to stay in. Yeah, that's exactly right. Okay. Cool. All right. Orac war clans. Boy, oh boy. This is like a real tale of four cities here, I guess. What, what are we doing with this, Tom? Where the heck is this going? What, what are we doing with this? I'm going to say it's easy to, like I think I'm going to be, I'm going to be scandalous here. And I'm going to say ease to play. It's, it's quite easy to play. Okay. Because in at least two iterations, it is a very straightforward play experience, which is big wall and iron jobs, which are your highest meta representations. Like if you're going to split that book into four, you know, 75% of what you're going to see on the table is one of those two forces. And honestly, it's not that expensive to collect. Like here's a fun fact, not that I want to necessarily spruke it again, but Stormbringer, you can like, it's part of this subscription. And guess what? I have a mall crusher coming in a couple months. I don't need one, but it's in, it's in there with a bunch of iron jaws and other and, and all like next month's issue is the skewer, like the crossbow in three bolt points. Cool. Like that's usable. That's usable in big wall, you know, like, um, so like I, um, I like, like, I think that it's, it is on the cheaper end of play and then iron jaws have been around and they used to have wonderful start collecting boxes that were out there. I think I'm going to leave it like almost dead in the middle. Okay. And here's my justification for that because it's like four weird armies in one book, really three. I mean, I'm not counting the, the Savage Orcs, really. Okay. Cause, cause I don't think that the GW is counting them either. Like I really think those guys are gone come 4.0. Um, but I think, you know, as, as is being said by some people in the chat, the storm bringer isn't available everywhere. Right. There is a decent amount of secondary market availability for these guys because again, they were in a starter box for the cool boys and stuff like that. And they've done some big boxes with the iron jaws, but it's not a cheap army to play either. Like it's, it's definitely feels very mid to me. Okay. There are some good alternative sculpts and stuff like that out there. The, but because it's so complicated and the way you want to build it, it's going to fall into the same gloom spike get strap, right? Because like, are you just building iron jaws? And that's it. Are you building big one? You want access to everything? Like boy, oh boy, is that going to swing around that price, right? And the amount of things you have to do and collect and stuff like that. But dominion boxes. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. I got like absolutely. That's why I'm, that's why it's in the middle, right? Because despite the size, I'm still marking it lower than gloom spike just natively because yes, you're absolutely right. Like if you favor the cool boys, I mean, my God, dominion boxes are, they'll, they'll basically give them to you at this point, right? Just please take it. I mean, I saw those things on sale for under $100, lots of times. Okay. So, uh, all right. So that's where I think it lands. Okay. Next up, Stormcast Eternals. I would put them probably directly below work. Like where they're sitting right now, like directly below work lands, somewhere like here. Basically, that's not helpful to me because I understand that. You can't see it. You're watching in a delay, but yes. Okay. Touching into the green, but on the same cost line. Yeah. Because I don't think that they have a straightforward strategy to victory. I think that they, that the play style has to be a little bit more nuanced and the bloat from the book for the 75 War Scrolls or whatever it is hides the actual ads to victory that are there in the box or in the book. Right. Okay. These guys are tough for me to place. I think you're right. They're a very complicated army to play. They shouldn't be. They're supposed to be the intro army. This book is so upside down, right? Yeah, they're supposed to be the fighter class, you said, right? Yeah, exactly. 100%. They've got a ton of launch boxes. So you can find a lot of the stuff cheap. The problem is a lot of that stuff you can find cheap is garbage. It's not what you need. Yes. Dragons are very expensive and they're pretty good. Do you know when you get dragons in the Stormbringer set? Issues 79 and 80. Okay. That is the last shipment you'll ever receive. Got it. Are you a dragon? There's like so many kits, so many trap choices, so much cost if you want to get the whole range. Like it's just a complicated mess and it's become quite pricey. Like Stormcast are just completely upside down right now. I can't say it any other way. Yeah.  They're terrible. They're not the worst new player army, but boy are they bad. I mean they're not Luminath or Skaven. Sure, but they're not meant to be, right? Luminath and Skaven are meant to be your intro armies. That's been the case forever. These guys are. They show up in those starter boxes and yet they're terrible. Okay. I watched a buddy play these multiple times and just get smashed because he couldn't figure out like what am I doing wrong here? And I'm like, well you're playing all the wrong units, right? Okay, so yep, agreed. Maybe even a little more there. Okay, cool. Next up, beast of chaos, B.O.C. Where are they dropping? We gotta speed this up a little bit, but that's okay. I'm gonna say they are high cost and they are moderate to difficult to play. So I would put them, I would put them above inching into the Idenath space, above Luminath. The reason why is because yes they are old as SIN models, but there is no bundles. There is no easy way into the divine. Oftentimes you need to have a bunch of disposable, summonable units or the like. And it is a very large range. And so there's just not an easy, cheap way to get into it. And it's not a trading army or it's not an easy push for counter punch army. I mean it has some of that, but I would say it's a non-intuitive style. And there's just a lot about you. Agreed. Completely agreed. I mean I don't think we had this one's actually too complicated. Like this is, it does have, some of its models have quite a lot of secondary market availability. Gore on Gore, stuff like that, right? Bull Gore. But a lot of the models are bad. A lot of the models are old. A lot of the, like you have to buy, it's quite expensive actually to get into the range, even with them being old. And they are very actually hard to play, to play right. Like they're, boy oh boy are they challenging. Now there are quite a lot of like 3D sculpts and stuff like that that are out there for them. So that's an advantage. Yeah. Like those things like minotaurs and stuff like that, that's just effectively what you're dealing with, right? You know those sort of beastial models. There is a lot of 3D support out there. But this thing also, yes I agree with Obsidian Crane who said a high candidate for a range refresh sometime in 4th edition. I agree.  If the actual launch box. It was BOC. They're like, hey, here's the new thing. Here's the new line refresh. Yeah, sure. Good happen. Okay. S2D Tom, where's S2D going? I would say that it is, I would say that it needs to sit. If OCR and Gloomspite are the top and the bottom of a pyramid, I would be, I would put it on the right side of that pyramid. So to the right of them on cost. But they, but above gets and below OCR on E-supply. Okay. I'm going to, I'm going to make a different choice here. Okay. I'm going to bring them to the front because I realize they're behind everything. Bring to front. There we go. Okay. So I'm putting them down here over top of and BOC. Here's why. Okay. They're a crazy expensive army to actually buy into if you want to. They are. Now, huge amounts of secondary market availability. Okay. Huge amounts of 3D print alternatives. So that's going to scoot them back. You're going to want to play chosen and variant, which is going to increase your cost because there's no easy way to get it. Correct. So I'm going to scoot them back a little for stuff like replacement cast nights replacement cast warriors, a lot of those kinds of things have just all the secondary market and 3D print availability in the world. Even Varengard and stuff like that do, but like, yes, it gets more and more limited when you get, because what you want is a lot of the more expensive kits, right? Complexity is super high. In fact, I think I'm going to pull them down some because this is another one of those giant trap armies, you know, 60, 70 war scrolls, traps left and right, all sorts of things that aren't worth the paper they're printed on, all sorts of things that you think should work, but don't, right? So like, yes, you've got good alternatives for 3D prints and old models and secondary market for cast warriors, for cast nights, even for stuff like Varengard and things like that, just big cast nights. It's really all they are, right? And, but like, if you're buying that stuff retail, even close to retail, that's going to, it zooms to the corner, right? Or to the right side, sorry. I'm just assuming that we're not. And it's all, it's a high complexity army. There's a lot of nonsense going on, as far as like different buffs and bubbles and effects and marks and blessings and banners and just like all this stuff, right? So it's, to me, on every level, it's got a lot of tricks, traps and pitfalls that it could hit. So, okay. Is it, Arturius Rex said, is it more or less expensive if you want to play a more traditional looking S2D army rather than Varengard spam? Probably more expensive because you got to fill out more stuff. Like I would say one of the advantages of Varengard spam is that like, Varengard are like pretty expensive. Or they, like they're, they're, they're costly in the game. So at least they minimize the number of like units you're putting on the board, even though they are exceptionally expensive for three nights, a hundred dollar kit or whatever. It's crazy. Okay. All right, Nurgle. Nurgle, Nurgle, Nurgle. Where are they going? I think from an ease of play, I think they're middle of the road, meaning that I think that they have some complexity. And I would actually put them on the higher cost middle of the road because you still need trees and you need summons and you need and you need and you need. Yes, it feels like it's going to start low, but you need to have two MAGA floors and you need to have lock-in and you need to have somebody be so chaos, which are actually surprisingly expensive and you need to have summons and you need to have trees and it goes on and on and on. Yep. Yeah, I think I want to move them up here in cost a little because they're, because you got summons, it's limited, but I think they're complexity wise. They're not bad is what I'll say. Yes, you've got this disease and stuff, but it's a relatively straightforward mechanic to keep track of.  That's it. And then a little wheel moves at the start of the turn. And then you reset those numbers and restart tracking on every unit. Sure, like they count down to one and then they count up again and they count down to one and they count up again. Like it's not, it's, it's not nothing. I'm just saying it's not like the highest complexity thing. I think I would rate them more on just doing well with Nurgle is actually rather hard in the current meta. That's a sort of trick. You, you have to play like one of the most complicated versions of the thing to do really strongly in the meta right now. So it's your turn. I charge and because I've charged and I within 12 inches of this guy, you can't pile into that.  But like, you know, I don't know what their new books going to look like. I don't know all that stuff, you know, exactly what Obsidian Crane said, like, you know, what you're talking about is the meta right now for the army in six months. That could all look very different. I agree. And so like, you know, it's that being said, there's like, depending on the types of stuff in the army, there's actually quite a large number of again, alternative sculpts and 3d prints out there. Certainly when it comes to like plague bears, anything like really hardcore, nerdily, especially on the demon side, there's just tons of options out there. Because those kinds of things like all those kinds of that gross disease demon is a very popular concept. Right? Yeah. So that stuff's around all over left and right and center. Okay, corn. Where are they going, Tom? I would say that they are, I would put them under Night Haunt, but on the lower cost side and in somewhere there in the middle of play style. Agreed. Completely agreed. Like, they are a little more complex than Night Haunt. There's some more tricksy-ness to it. You got to be a little more Johnny. You got to do your murder lists, right? And know what you're doing, right? But you can also, you can also get away with a little more kind of like straightforward lists too.  Like, you can go with that version of them as well and still be quite competitive. Right? Are you going to like 5-0 a tournament? No, but it's a certainly perfectly viable play experience for most games. Right? That's competitive. And so I think they're a little harder, but cost-wise again, as you mentioned, there's a couple of models that are relatively hard to get your hands on because of the way they were originally released, but they are, there are lots of secondary market availability for most of this army. Bloodthirsters have, in fact, all your corn demons, just like with Nurgle, have 50 million alternative sculpts in the market. My God. Like rage demons. I mean, you could just, it's endless. Okay. The number of alternative sculpts for that stuff. And frankly, they're normal guys aren't that weird either. Maybe you buy like the real Skull Reapers or Wrathmongers or something because you like the look of those, but you could almost then get away with, with like knockoffs for, for basically everything else easily, easily. Right? Yep. Okay. Cool. Next up, let's just stay in the demon train. Zinch, let's get them zinchy boys out. Should we just put them down here? Just down in the low, right? Yeah, that's where they go, right? Like, yeah. Yeah. Like it's, I have all of my, like I have all of my Zangorn for me. Like it's in boxes. It's waiting to be painted. But I just can't bring myself to do it yet. Like I don't hate myself that much. It's a very high complexity army. One of the most complex armies to play. It is Caleb. Yeah. Easy to play. Caleb, you get out of here. No, don't really. Out. But no, do not trust the band who's been playing Nurgle consistent. There's Nurgle. Who's been playing Zinch consistently since 2015 or whatever. Right? Like, yeah, they're easy to you, Caleb.  It's like asking Tony Hawk how difficult it is to write a half pipe. Yeah, it's not that hard for him. For me, I'll break my neck about five seconds in, right? So, like, they're, they're very complicated. They're also very expensive. It is just a range of expensive options, costly. Now, there are some good 3D prints and alternative sculpts out there. It exists. Sure. Sure. Let me, let me just bring this point home. So, you're telling me that I can play a faction that can summon like $130 models a lot. Yeah. Base. Base, yeah. I can get a lot of those every round. Cool. Cool. Cool. That's where we live then. Got it. Now, that being said, just like with rage demons, there are bird demon alternative sculpts. I'm not sure if he can, where's he at? Is he visible? No, I don't think he's visible. He's like on this shelf right here, like behind this post. Yeah. But yes, I have a big alternative 3D print keeper of secrets guy hanging in there. There was way cheaper than the real guy. Yeah, they are an expensive army. They're a complicated army we can move on. That's, that's where it goes. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Let's round this out. He knights us the Nash. Let's finish out the chaos quartet here. At the bottom. I mean, they, they're, they're maybe underneath slaves and artists. They may be a little bit cheaper than cinch, but not by a lot if they are. Yeah, I agree. I think they're harder to play. It's annoying. You have to like, they're, I, I, like, I just think they're one of the more complicated armies to play. Like, maybe I'll put them on the same level. I'll put them on the same level of complexity as you can travel with that will be nice. I'll get my personal bias out of it or try to. It's very hard. I just think they're a very, very wacky, complicated army that wants to dance around and you want to do these sorts of things and you need to be shooting and all your kits are expensive and, and you know, and issuing commands to three units at a time and yachting, make sure it's within range and yep. So yeah, they're right down there. They're basically a nightmare army. Okay. Cool. Excuse me. I have two of those. I don't know why I have two of those. Okay. Next up, Soul Blight Gravelords. It's the SB's and the G's. Where are they going? Where they going, Tom? I would say that they are not at this point are not easy to play. Yep. Agreed. Because they do require like a, they do require an attrition mindset and like playing the objectives. And which is not naturally how a lot of people want to play Warhammer and myself included. Yep. And so some of it can be relatively cheap. You know, they've gotten two years of battle force boxes of a lot of the newer ranges. Yep. But like, I can't say any army is cheap when I want to go buy what's the one hero from Curse City, like to supplement my army. Oh, Chattacar. Yeah, sure. No, not Chattacar. What's the Gorslop or what? Oh, like Gorslop. Torghilius. Sure. Torghilius. And you have to fork out $140 for this weird web only hero box. Sure. Right.  Yeah, yeah.  And so it's actually not as cheap as you might expect. Like if you want a vampire, if you want a vampire lord, or you want to run one of the, if you want to run the what's his face, you're going to fork out full price for those at this point. Like there's no way to get a bite at one of those drives. Sure. Yeah, I put them about in the, I think they're firmly in the middle tier of play complexity. And I have a lot of units, too. They do have a lot of units. That is true. That's true. But so blight benefits from having a lot of, as you said, past bundles, past deals, there's just like the secondary market for them is massive, like skeletons, zombies, dire wolves, all your like main grist in the mill, as it were, you can often find on the secondary market cheapest chips or with like 3d prints just out the yang, right? Like that is not anything that you're, you're, you're hard up to find at all. So most of where your money is going to go is as you said, like into the special stuff, buying Torgillius off of eBay, that somebody broke him out of a cursed city box, picking up Manfred or something like that, right?  And you don't actually need a ton of that stuff. If you're like wanting to do a blood knight heavy force, okay, this has just became a different discussion. But again, there are alternate sculpts out there, but still, no. Yeah. And if you want to have any range, like if you want to do Viricus on one end and Legion of Night or Legion of Blood on the other, like you're going to, like you're going to have pretty significant price weights. Sure. Yep. Again, this is another, like all the large armies, uh, you can swing a lot. All the summoning armies are also, you know, can get fall into that trap. Yeah. Okay. Seraphon. What are we doing with Seraphon? I don't care. That's not a real army. All right. I'll answer Seraphon. Um, Seraphon are a really interesting case because cost wise, they can be a pretty significant outlay because again, the army is pretty big. It has a lot of special pieces you may want or feel like you have to have like a slon or croak himself or stuff like that. Um, they do have, uh, you know, sort of a couple of different box alternatives. There's a lot of older Seraphon though that are on the secondary market that still look perfectly fine. Like if you can find the really old like the two generation ago, Soros, they're fine. Um, they're, they're like derpy, but they're fine. They look better than the one generation ago, Soros, which were terrible. And it's weird because play complexity wise, neither one of them, like they both have too many things going on, but neither of them are incredibly complicated. Like they have a lot of rules, but they don't have a ton of complexity. It's just like load. It's just you gotta get a load bearing wall type of situation, right?  If you're playing starborn, uh, it's still not that complicated. You're probably just mortal wound bombing people from Lord Croke or something from the other side of the table, right? So neither one is actually that complicated of a play pattern. It's just there are still some very bad units in the book. There are things that are a little more fiddly. Like if you're relying heavily on agrodons, you're like sort of tracking rage, which basically, I guess you don't really have to track it. You just don't have it. Just assume you don't have it. Um, and, you know, things like that. So to me, they're probably firmly in the middle. There are a lot of 3d prints for seraphons out there, like a lot. Um, but yeah, like all in all, I think they end up, they net out probably in the middle, dipping a little to the right for cost because of some of the newer, bigger expensive kids. That's where I think they land. So okay. Yep. All right. Hey, welcome, King Cool. Glad to have you. Okay. Corradron overlords, Tom. Where are they going? Where are they going? Um, I would say they're expensive and they have a pretty straightforward play style at this point. I don't know man. I read that book and it made my brain hurt. They're in a boat and you shoot. I understand, but like when I can withdraw and disengage and like using my things and the cross buffs and all of that. Uh, I mean, it's all like you're in zones and it's fine. Like in general, it's not a difficult, difficult army to play. Like I would put it somewhere in the middle. Chat, what do you say? How complicated are Corradron overlords? Is this a, is this a, is this a Caleb playing Zinch situation here since Tom's a KO player? Uh, is that what we've got going on? What's everybody else's vote? Okay. I mean, my money, I agree with you. They're quite expensive. Yeah. For me, they would sit down here like a little more expensive than BC chaos and about the same complexity. That's, that's where I think I would put them. Like just bordering on that really hard to play, but like at the very bottom of the middle tier. I mean, I don't know, that's fine. I don't think that they're hard to play.   We got a lot of mid, a lot of midvotes, lower middle, complicated. Okay. Okay. So yeah, I think, I think this placement feels pretty right based on the, the consensus of what I'm seeing in the, in the chat here. Maybe something like that somewhere in there. Okay. Okay. Right on. All right. Cities, new cities, Tom, they've been updated in a big way. Where are they falling? Okay. Um, go ahead. I would say they're very expensive. Yeah. Yeah. If you want all the new stuff, if you want, no, if you want old stuff, it's still very expensive because getting enough, uh, dwarf units, for example, like there's no easy way. There's no path to that. I mean, the path to that Tom is called buying old world boxes that release in the next couple of weeks. No, no, because that's, they're going to re-release all those kits, the dwarves and, and well, not that you will get the dark ends because they're not in the old world. No, but not bundled. Like you're not going to get them bundled. No, I'm just saying if you want to buy the boxes, like they exist, you're not paying secondary like inflated prices for them, but they will be commercially available on the shelf, hammers and all that kind of stuff. Sure. Sure. Right. But, but what I'm saying is that there's no cheap way to that and you're paying like $60, $70 for 10 models. Sure. Like there's no, like, and you need like a lot, a lot. Yeah. Right. There's no, there's no easy way to. And so I think actually cities is one of the more expensive RVs right now. Yep. And I think that it has a fairly, like, I think it has a pretty complex playstyle, like the issuing commands and like reading the table and understanding what's about to happen and how the other opponent is going to move or what, what, what, what thing you need to issue to what unit I'm a bit like, I think it's like it is a higher complexity. Okay. Like I really wanted to do that this year and then I saw Fleshy reports and I was like, smash, like I'm going to do smash bat. I'm not going to do sure high committees. Yeah. I tend to agree. I think cities is somewhere like I place them in between slaves and storm cast like kind of in that, in that space ish there. I think that feels right to me. If you, now there is a lot of secondary market availability, especially for sort of the older models, a lot of 3d prints, you know, humans gunners and stuff like that's not hard to get.  It's, it's expensive, especially if you want actually the new sculpts of which there's not a, there's really not many people with, with anything that looks like exactly what that looks like. Now your tolerance for sort of proxies could vary that a lot, right? But you're right. And I agree with you on the complexity of the play style, like orders and things like that. It actually gets pretty tricky. Yeah. Okay. Cool. Let's do a fun one. Sons of behemoth. It's high cost, easy. Yeah. They are interesting because they sit like here at the, at the, basically touching the top of easy to play, but being way over the right on high cost. Now, let me just state this, at the same time, there are many 3d printable giants. You can go get alternative sculpt giants from like nozzers and whiz kids and stuff like that. Right. So if you go buy those guys, they, they sit here. They are in the top left. They are the easiest army to start and play and collect and paint and everything. Like if instead, you, if instead of going out and buying the actual kits, you just go buy the $20 alternative giant sculpts or get any of the 3d printed giants, right? That are going to run you about the same cost. They drop so hard, so far, so fast to the left. They are, it's 80, less than $100 for the whole army. Easy. Easy. If you buy those alternative things. Okay. If you buy the retail models, they're way up here because then they're like $190 apiece. Yup. And you need four. And you need four. You need four. All right. So like, let me just state that that's, I just want to be super clear that I, there's no higher dichotomy of cost than with the sons of behemoth because the, like again, from cheapest army to one of the most expensive, they sit at almost opposite ends of the spectrum, depending