This is Erik Roskamp-Abbing and this is the Service Design Show. In the Service Design Show we talk to people who are shaping the service design industry. In this episode we have a very special guest also from the Netherlands, Erik Roskamp-Abbing. You might know Erik because he's the author of this book, Brand-Driven Innovation, already a classic I think in the industry. Erik is also the founder of Silver Innovation and he's a teacher at the Technical University in Delft related to service design, customer experience design and of course Brand-Driven Innovation. Welcome to the show Erik. Thank you Mark, good to see you. Did I forget something in that introduction? No, you didn't. I mean, yeah, I mean those are my work credentials and then I also have a private life with a great family and kids and all that. But we'll skip that topic for now. Well, okay. Erik, do you recall your first memory of service design? Yes, I do very clearly. It was an article published by the BNO in their monthly magazine about service design where I think Silver and 31 volts and design thinkers and Eden Spiekermann were mentioned as the Dutch protagonists of service design. And to be very honest, that was the first time that I've read my name associated with the word service design and my reaction was, ah, is that what we do? And talking to many people in the industry, I know that many of us have had that sort of realization where ah, service design, ah, that's what I do. So I think the name sort of represents what we've been doing all along but it clicked. And I think this was what, six years ago, seven years ago or something, I'm not sure. Okay, so this was a magazine from the Dutch Association of Designers, right? Exactly.  Yeah, yeah. And I've been a bit recalcitrant in a way. I thought now, you know, I was raised in Delft with user centeredness and with taking the business aspect into consideration and human technology and all that was part of my upbringing. So I had a bit of trouble framing it as a different design discipline because for me it was very much, you know, this is what design should be about anyway. So why should we put a label on it? But service designers become so big and the community is so great and even our clients are embracing it as a good framing. I've stopped fighting it and now I'm wholeheartedly part of the community and proudly so. Good. Erik, let's explain the format of what we're going to do for the viewers who are actually watching this for the first time. It's really easy because I have three topics here written on a nice piece of paper and you also have a few papers yourself with some question starters, right? That's right. I have here, for example, why and how much. All right. So what we'll do, I'll be holding up a paper with a topic and you'll associate a question starter with that and it's up to you to start your rant about the topic based on that question. Easy, right? Easy. Okay. So let's move on and I show the first one. So I won't start with that one. I'll start with this topic and it's called On the Inside. On the Inside. Nice. Yes. I think what I would like to do with On the Inside is the why. So the question would be why are more and more organizations internalizing their experience design and service design capabilities? I think only two or three years ago this was something you clearly outsourced to agencies and now more and more we see that our customers have internal customer experience departments. They hire service designers, they have service design as a discipline on board internally and why is that? And I think, let me first of all say that I'm very optimistic about this development. I think it's a great sign of maturity. I think it's a great sign of the value of what service design could be. I also think it's a sign of the importance. When you internalize something, it means it's vital to your business, right? The things that are not vital you can outsource, the things that are vital you keep inside. But the why question is interesting because I think we could talk about what makes these companies realize that this is something that they want to learn and that is so key to their business that it becomes part of the full-time capabilities they have on board. And I think this has to do with a few things, the urgency of being really customer-centric and not only as lip service but as something you actually put to practice every day. Does urgency has increased in the recent years? I think the urgency to actually start doing something about it has increased in the sense that I think it has been fashionable to say that you're customer-centric for a long time. I think more and more companies are realizing that this takes a lot of effort and a lot of work and that you actually have to put your money where your mouth is and start doing things. Which has consequences for HR, for IT, for everything, for how you organize your business, how you structure it, for all the channels you operate in.  No, this is part of your ongoing business. This is what you are or what you should be. Exactly, exactly. So I think organizations are starting to realize that and they're starting to realize that customer-centricity and service design or design thinking are all part of the capabilities that you need to have on board in order to put this to practice every day of the week. Next to all the other efforts you're doing and all your business capabilities and marketing and sales and purchasing and you name it. So then you see customer experience departments emerge where this capability is founded and where people are responsible for the customer experience within the company. It's a good sign. I see these departments struggling because they have very little political power and maybe their budget isn't big enough and they end up hiring external help anyway. But together they are a step in the right direction, I think. Other companies, I see one of our clients, a large car rental company, has actually put a customer experience lead in the board of directors. So that means that on the very highest level they have someone responsible for the customer journey. I think that's even a stronger sign because he works with IT, he works with operations, he works with sales with all the channel managers, with all the country managers and I think that's a better way of really infusing this way of thinking in the organization. But then again he needs more people around him so he's starting his own department as well and I think we'll end up with some kind of hybrid form that works. But in whatever way you organize it, I think it's really a sign of maturity that companies need this, want this. Another thing I see happening is the digitalization of many channels, has put user experience at the forefront and a lot of UX people are embracing service design just as a more holistic way of looking at... So it's a logical transition or a logical evolution. Exactly. So for many banks or many insurance companies or many of our clients, the transition towards internalizing service design starts with the internalization of UX, which is a logical step simply because there's so much work to do, it's too expensive to outsource to agencies and then it starts from there. And then you can question the level of service design if you approach this from UX. I think it's always a bit too digital, I think the customer journeys are always a bit too much about the customer using our touchpoints rather than the life of the customer. But that's a different topic. So if you would have to summarize why organizations are internalizing service design would be one that the need is becoming high, a greater majority of the field and two is maybe that it's growing from the inside, from UX. Yeah, I guess those two are the main reasons. You could also say that on the... So the demand side is growing, but the supply side is also growing, right? We have more people leaving great educational programs and enter the market as service designers. So you see that it becomes a profession and that might be a third mechanism that is going on. Has your conversation with clients changed over the last two, three years in that sense? It has and we embraced this development because it has brought us a lot of work and what we get is our clients say, listen, we want to internalize these capabilities, do this project with us and teach us how to do it. And so next to our consulting practice we have quite a nice training practice that we are developing where we're actually teaching our clients how to do it themselves. Partly, I think partly you always need specialized agencies or consultancies, but the training value proposition has grown in our business because our clients ask to learn, which is great. I think over the interviews that I've had so far, this seems to be a really key topic at this moment. And it's really interesting to see how it will be developed because you already said some are setting up service design departments. I've talked with Anna von Ostrom who said service design shouldn't be a department. So it's really, really interesting to see how this will play out. Exactly. Well, if you see what happened to marketing in the 60s, 70s, 80s of the last century, that also matured from something you bought at an advertising agency to something that was part of the board. And now you have CMOs everywhere. So I guess it was external and then it became a department and then it became a capability and then it became a function, etc. And I wouldn't be surprised if we sort of entered that same evolution. And I fully agree with Anna that it shouldn't be a department. On the other hand, a department is better than nothing. And I think it's a logical step in an evolution. Exactly. Right. Erik, let's move on to a second topic. Yes. I've written down here experience prototyping. Yes. I think I will have the what if question there. What if we would prototype experiences like we prototype products or like we, you know, in the lean startup world we prototype apps or MVPs or whatever. I think prototyping is one of the most interesting and most powerful aspects of design. Because it really allows you to take a step in the future without being hurt too much and really projecting yourself into the future, looking around, learning from it, going back to the now and applying that learning on whatever it is you're developing. And I think there's a huge potential for prototyping services, prototyping customer experiences, etc. And I think there's a lot to be learned there and a lot to be developed in terms of tooling and methodologies, a lot to be explored in terms of what is the effect of it. And because we were so curious about it, we said, what if we just apply this in our projects and we just try to sell it to our clients and say, listen, we're designing all these wonderful customer journeys for you and personas and whatever, but let's just go out and do it. So for this same car rental company, we've chosen 10 initiatives in different countries that help them improve their customer experience. And for each initiative, we went to the rental station, worked with the local staff, co-created solutions, built them in a day and tested them with their clients. And it was a wonderful experience. It brought so much in terms of real user feedback, commitment from the staff, solid business cases as to what will this actually do for the business. Commitment from higher up, people said, what do you mean with customer experience? I want this. So it was the famous oil stain, people embracing it. Can you say something about how did you actually prototype the service because I think a lot of people that I speak to find it really hard to imagine in their head how you prototype something that is not tangible. Yeah, that is of course the challenge. And I think that's part of why I like this topic so much. There are no golden rules for it. It really depends on what you're doing. One of the things we did is we chose experiences that have a relatively low digital aspect to them. So we chose, let's say, analog services. For example, you come to rent a car. And as a desk employee, I try to explain to you what insurance options you have. This moment is always experienced as pushy and as very commercial. And just give me my car. You know the feeling. Whereas actually it's of course from a business case perspective it's a huge source of income from the car rental. But also from a customer experience perspective we knew that people who leave the station well insured feel better. So there is some value to be gained there. So we looked at this experience and we redesigned it very much from a communication perspective. So how can you rather than selling someone this insurance explain it better to them? So basically what we did is we designed some tools, just visible, tangible tools that help these desk employees explain the value of the insurance better. And this was imagine some kind of card where you can leave through or you can turn a wheel to explain some things. It's just tangible stuff. And so in this case we went from some user insights, some business insights to a personal interaction that you can facilitate through physical tools. And there's a lot to be gained and you don't have to invest in any app or IT system or CRM system or all these things. So one way of framing experience prototyping is keep it very small, keep it at first, keep it tangible, keep it in the form of how can we interact better and role play it and see what happens. And we just built the thing, we tested it for a day, we had I think 50 client interviews and all of them, you know, we did something with MPS and MPS was raised by a number of digits and it was just simple stuff but it was very clear that this was helping people. So my first tip would be keep it small, keep it analog and also be creative because things can be prototyped that at first exactly like you're saying seem very hard to prototype. But I've prototyped business models with Volkswagen in the form of role plays, you know, and it's just this tremendous abstraction is all of a sudden turned into something that you can embrace or improve or work with just by making it tangible. I think also the hard part with prototyping services is that a lot of people focus on how it should look instead of how it should feel. And I think once you focus, once you get that into your mind, it's not that hard to actually prototype it. And that's really good that you say that because this has to do also with the imagination of users, right? If you give users something that they can give their opinion on and you say, listen, it's not finished yet and it looks like crap, we know that. But hey, if you would be able to use something, would you like it? And just take them along in your storytelling and take them along in the prototyping and make them feel comfortable with something that's unfinished, you get great responses. So it's also about the courage to be unfinished and to be messy and to show it to your user. And that's also I think a very big topic because there isn't a lot of space and room within large organizations to actually be messy. True. And again, that's where it really helps if you're an outside consultant where you say, hey, we are from the outside. We made it messy. It's not the brand itself. It's sort of a nice way of making mistakes legitimately because it's always, the consultant here does it, not them. You can blame us, yeah. Yeah, exactly. But in prototyping, this is a huge topic. Are you allowed to make mistakes? What kind of mistakes are you making? Are you designing the mistakes? Are you making them small? Are you preparing the customer for it and are you taking them along? This is all very key and very vital and I think not a whole lot of people are very good at this. And from the service design community, from the supply side, I think also we have a lot to learn there to help our clients embrace this kind of early trial and error. But also in a focused way, if you look at what the Lean startup does with this continuous learning and sort of shut off all assumptions and just learn, that's also not fully the thing. I don't fully believe in that. I think there's huge power and intuition and in very focused prototyping where you have your design approach where you have this very strong intuition based on user insights and based on business savviness of where an opportunity might lie and then you prototype from there. So it's different than the classical MVP approach, I think. Interesting. I think this should be a topic that we basically, I think also need a lot more case studies showing how it works, what it delivers, what the value is. Yeah, exactly. And what we've been doing is we've been offering it very cheaply to our clients simply because we want to learn. So that is one way of growing your own experience. And making sure that you develop a body of knowledge and a repository of case studies. Interesting. Erik, let's move on to the third and last topic that I have here in front of me. And it's called DIY. It sort of relates to the first, I guess. It does relate to the first topic. Do you have a question starter that goes with that one? Yeah, so when will, and I think it relates to the first topic, but I like to frame it a little bit more from an individual level. When will HR departments start to require a certain element of design thinking or design early approaches or people-centeredness and creativity in any function, whether it be a sales function or a purchasing function or a marketing function? Because, I mean, if you see now the huge sort of increase in interest in these kind of approaches, you could imagine that five years from now, everyone in any function is doing this themselves. And I have an accountant who is embracing a lot of our approaches in his work simply, and I didn't tell him to, simply that's his intuition. He thinks accountancy should be more human-centered. It should be more creative. It should be more customized. It should be more iterative, et cetera. So he's DIYing, you could say, design thinking in his own practice. And I think that's a very interesting development. And also, I mean, we cannot claim this, right? This is not invented by designers. This is not ours to protect or keep. This is simply, if you're optimistic like I am, this is where the world is moving towards. And I think this will do a lot with our educational systems. This will do a lot with how we run businesses, with how we co-create, how we run municipalities and cities, how we look at co-creating solutions for environmental issues, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And this is very much about embracing this kind of thinking on a very individual level and start doing it yourself. So what you're basically saying is everyone should at least have a design attitude and mindset somewhere within them and probably already has. Exactly, yes, exactly. And that's another thing that I find really inspiring is that when I work with people, I try to trigger this in them and I try to sort of wake up the silent designer in them. And it works. When you put people at ease and when you make people understand sort of in the context in which we are innovating and you make it safe and understandable and inspiring, you see many people embracing this uncertainty and embracing this human-centeredness and embracing this what-if quality of what if we do things differently. So that's really interesting. Another thing that when I thought of this DIY topic is also we've been putting a lot of stress on putting the customer at the heart of everything we do. But as a service design community. As a service design community, but let's face it. I mean, this is not ours. We didn't invent this. This is all marketing and the whole digital community is very much about user-centeredness, et cetera. What I always find interesting is there's this very nice quote by Ayn Rand who you can think of what you want, but she had at least one really nice quote where she says, you can only say I love you if you can say I. Meaning there has to be an individual, there has to be someone feeling that love. And what I sometimes miss in a lot of companies is that they say they want to be human-centered and they want to put the user at the heart of everything you do. But what about them? What about you? What do you stand for? What are your core values? And what are your beliefs? And what are your dreams? And then it's quite empty there. So I try to teach them DIY. First look at yourself. First discover in yourself what it is you really need, what it is you're dreaming of. How can you relate your business objective to your personal aspirations and your brand values and your future vision? And then it's a lot easier to go outside and meet people and connect with them and build meaningful relationships through the products and services you offer them. So start on the inside, then go outside. And a lot of our work has been on the inside of companies, teaching companies to first look at themselves. Yeah, I see this really happening in our projects too, is that we tend to focus more and more on internal services. You can't be customer centric if you are not dead for your employees. Exactly, exactly. What is the reason why people get up out of bed and go to work, right? Exactly, yeah. And then it's not about user centricness, but it's about people centricness. And companies are people and should be people at least. So is this the next frontier within our community that we'll first have to fix internal organizations before we can actually start looking at customers? Well, I do think that... I don't know if it's the next frontier, but I think we're facing a few frontiers, but I think it's one very important element in what we need to learn and what we need to become good at. We need to really understand how organizations work. I mean, if you're working for a startup or a small business owned by the founder, then the complexity is much less and then you can do great work with them because usually the guy at the helm or the woman at the helm is the one with the dreams and the vision and then it's rather easy. But these big organizations, they're very hard to work with and I do think that that is where a lot of the magic really happens. If you can work on the inside and like you say, design internal services or make people feel important and have every vote count and have people genuinely co-create together throughout the silos on the basis of a shared vision and a shared understanding of what they're good at and the goals they want to reach, that is hugely powerful. And I think also there's now a lot of interest from the business consulting community, what we do, and I think the overlap is very interesting. I think there's synergy possible. Alright, let's leave it at that for this topic. Erik, you're a teacher, so you will probably get this question a lot, but what would be your most valuable tip for aspiring service designers, people who want to get into service design? That would be your most valuable tip. I think right now, I mean I get maybe 10 or 20 emails per week of people wanting to work in service design and wanting to be part of what we do, which makes me very happy and very proud. But what I usually see in the emails I get is a certain type of naive belief in creativity and user-centeredness. And I think, I mean I don't want to put it down because it's really important, it's really nice, but it is commoditizing. I can get good user researchers quite easily. What's a lot more valuable for me, for us, is people who can combine that with a business understanding and with a real keen sense of how to translate that into business language and how to sell that to the clients and this sensitivity of how companies work and how user-centeredness and creativity can be put to work inside an organization. This is what I'm really looking for. So I would advise any service designer who's now doing some form of education to focus on that element more and to learn there and to invest in business literature, doing internships at companies, getting inside these organizations. Because I think there is some lacking talent. And the challenge is always to keep combining it with your design skills, to put on the right hat at the right moment and to switch perspectives and to switch roles. But that requires a lot of experience. I think it starts with just being open to gaining the right knowledge, reading the right books, going to the right conferences, doing the right kind of internships, those kind of things. Maybe designers focus too much on design at this moment. I fully agree with you. And we've said it a lot. We're a little bit too much in love with our own process. But let's face it, it is great. It's easy to fall in love with. But it's only part of the magic mix. And I think what, ultimately, what companies are buying from us is not this creative stuff you see here in the background. What they're buying from us is outcomes. Business outcomes that make them money in a good, sustainable way. Which we can offer them if we combine this within their ecosystem. This is your opportunity. Do you have a question for people that are actually watching this episode right now? What would be your question for them? Ooh, that's a good one. Nice. Yeah, I think if we take this last topic and turn it into a question, why would a big company, a big bank, a big oil company, a big insurance company, why would they hire you? What is the value that they see in you? What kind of qualities do they see that make them want to work with you? And I think if you cannot answer that question very clearly, you still have some learning to do. So I think that's the mirror I would like to put in front of the community. That is, the service designers watching this movie, I hope a lot of non-service designers watch this movie. And from them I would like to hear from your perspective, what do you see changing in your business? What are the transitions that you're facing? Where old, let's say, methodologies and tooling don't work any longer, and where you're looking for new ways of solving problems. So what made you watch this video? What made you watch this video? That's a great question actually. Really interesting. Really curious how people will react. So Eric, we need to leave it at this. So very much thank you for your time. Thank you for giving us the opportunity to tap into your mind and know what is going on and reading a bit about the future of our profession. So Eric, thanks again. You're very welcome. I really enjoyed it. It was great to talk. Thanks for giving me this opportunity. What are your thoughts about the topics we've just discussed with Eric in this episode? Also, if you have any suggestions on who we should invite next to the show, be sure to let us know down below in the comments. If you enjoyed this episode and like to see more interviews with service design pioneers, be sure to subscribe and check out some of our past episodes. With the service design show, we help you to stay one step ahead by talking to the people that are actually shaping the service design field. Thanks for watching.


transcribe We know now what the earlier ones could not have known Cotton was a cruel mistress subtle as she was beautiful Taking when she seemed to give We've escaped that the bondage is over We know now a spring that was centuries in the making It is as though our times our generation Were handed the gift of beginning again You can mark it in the faces you could see it in the fields huge with crops whose very names are strange to our lips The past survives of course It's in our speech our thoughts our way of going in coming out But the land is new The national broadcasting company in collaboration with the Alfred P. Sloan foundation Presents the land is new the second in a series of programs describing one of the most significant developments of our time Rebirth of the South it was a curious pilgrimage that we took wandering across half a country knocking on a hundred doors Catching on our tape record as the voices and the sounds of this 20th century revolution We found no villain no tyrant and the heroes a bespeckled scientist driving to solve the riddle of why cattle sicken and die a Farmer holding on trying again his crops blowing like a standard over his land Are the Sun Brown citrus farmer who when we ask what he planned to raise on his plot of land? Pointed to his three sons and said he figured this was a mighty fine place for them to grow Our guide on this journey through the South and a witness to this new world Renaissance was NBC correspondent Henry Cassidy Mr. Cassidy, I'd like you to listen first to this voice. It will explain much I think of what follows his name doesn't matter He was speaking not for himself, but for a whole breed of men those whose business is with the land Men who know its odor and are intimate with the field of growing things. I Have no regrets. I think a well-managed farm can be made profitable It is not any get rich quick scheme by any means, but it's a way of life You love the outdoor life and they love the independence of a farmer a farmer is the most independent man in the world He answers to nobody except as God Let's go back a bit in time ten years not long as the history of nations is measured But long enough in the lifetime of a man long enough to go to war and perhaps to return to be To see your firstborn wrinkled and red-faced and beautiful ten years ago 1943 the South was still slumbering under the weight of its past still burdened by a sectional war that most of us in other parts of the country recall only as some tragic Conflict blundered into by an unseeing generation, but its weight was still there its echoes still hurt 1943 President Jefferson Davis could have walked many a road that he knew as a young man could have marked the growing cotton and not known That a century had gone by as he slept Cotton everywhere cotton on the long fields that stretch down to the rivers cotton holding on in the uplands cotton Stretching even to the kitchen door Strange that anything so beautiful could be so evil a mistress The South staggered under a one-crop economy when the price fell there seemed to be only one solution Grow more encroach on the road if necessary plow through the garden in the back the price has gone down again And we must raise more It's hard to know when it came of why at this particular instant of time It may have been the Second World War and the demands it made it may be that certain far-seeing men caught the spirit of the Times and showed by their example that chains could be broken, but it did happen It broke like a dawn when you thought the night would never end It had a small beginning like so many revolutions a farmer in Alabama plowed under his cotton and tried raising dairy stock The discovery of instant freezing of fruit juices gave an impetus to the citrus growers Scientists working in laboratories developed new and rich grasses and soon cattle from the west were grazing in lands that earlier Gave scant nutrition even to the rabbits that scampered across the field We talked to a mr. Franks who had made the change over but who still had stern memories of the days when his fields held Only cotton tell us we asked of the earlier days Well, I was sort of a slow goat He was at erosion all the time didn't keep the soil and got the places I Couldn't make enough cotton although made this day or day that couldn't make enough paper to label and the fertilizer So I thought I'd have to do something about it. So I Went back and borrowed money Well, then how would you compare your dairy farm now to the cotton farm before? The farm now was three to four times much as it was 1928 30 I would gather that the income when you got through at the end of the year from the cotton farm was nothing Not anything at all. And how about the dairy farm? Well, I'm living and this man Dr. Thomas S. Dewey of the soil conservation service. He too had marked a change I would say that is having the effect of helping us to develop a permanent Agriculture that is a type of land use and a type of production of crops that we can expect to continue indefinitely when we clear up land and plant row crops that can only be continued for a period of 10 1015 or even 25 to 40 years We do not have the kind of permanence that we have a right to expect from the use of our land We're getting the pasture first We're getting the feed and the livestock is coming in and there was a boy Over in North Georgia not very far from here. They told me a few years ago when I asked him why he and his brothers were willing to come back from the War and settle down on the farm whereas his uncles and people of a former generation had gone to town hunting jobs He said well, it's just this way When you're planting different crops to have different sources of income Milk and cows and raising chickens your paydays come so much closer together than when you just raised enough and with cotton There was another curse over this land erosion Slow gnawing at the earth as though each storm each tiny raindrop had come with a mission to destroy You saw it plainly on a thousand hills the topsoil washed away huge gaping wounds in the earth Speaking of the strength of the enemy and now the counterattack. Listen. Here is one who is fighting back Here is a voice heavy with the sound of the past, but the words are of tomorrow Mr.. Bailey, could you tell us some of the things that have been done to slow down the water? we put on certain treatments including the construction of terraces and getting all of our cultivation on the approximate contour and Then developing rotations of crops that included enough close growing ground covers of grasses and legumes To give the soil greater protection than we formula had under the old one crop system It protects the soil against the direct beating effects of raindrops Then it slows down the flow of water along the whole general surface And causes more of the water to be absorbed into the soil Rather than running off through the terraces in other words this whole business of ground cover Is the basis of erosion control over the entire surface Driving down here. I've noticed quite a few of what look like new fences in the fields. Does that have any special significance? Yes, these fences simply indicate that people are beginning to market grass through livestock And thereby to give us a better balanced type of agriculture than we had under a straight cotton economy When you see a fence that indicates that the farmer is coming into a better balanced type of agriculture Which livestock will be a more important part of his future income than It has been in the past that was in the hills of the piedmont section of virginia Toward the coast on the low level land that slants down to the sea The problem is a different one. The water must be drained guided ever so slightly to the ocean This man his nickname is molly is an employee of the soil conservation service He told me of the problem in his area The piedmont is primarily concerned with keeping the water on the land In the coastal plain we are primarily concerned with removing seprous water How big a thing is this but the coastal plain comprises about half the state In the state as a whole we have about five million acres on the cultivation for the greater part of it requires drainage in order to make it Productive in addition to that we have three and a half million acres potential good land in the coastal plain that Could be used for agriculture if it was drained Citrus farms stretching from florida a hundred crops growing on lands that once were thrall to cotton And still a newer product once unprofitable in these hills now a symbol of the rebirth Right brian editor of the atlanta journal down in georgia gave us the story of jesse jewel It has the makings of a legend a folk story of one who like the young son in the old fairy story Sets out to make his fortune a man named jesse jewel had a small feed business in which he was attempting to support himself and his mother And the chicken feed was not selling very well And he finally went out and gave it to some farmers on consignment and got some chickens for them to feed And that thing grew and other people followed in his footsteps And it has turned out to be a perfectly tremendous industry Until all over these north georgia hills you'll find poultry houses Mr. H.C. Arthur a farmer from virginia summed it up for us with a faint note of disapproval on one aspect of the new times I think that we've about doubled our crop How many men work on the file mr. Arthur about uh, there's about eight eight or nine now used to work about 20 And do these eight or nine men produce more than the 20 used to produce uh, And what does this mean to the men how are they living compared to the way they used to they make plenty of money, but they spend it That's the way to go Yes, they spend it all over the south money is being made and spent You can measure it a hundred ways bank credit capital investment Men dealing in fortunes who a few years back knew what it was to barter their goods A smoke cam for a circular saw vegetables for a bolt of cloth How much firewood you want for that book the one with all the colored pictures? Now they talk money big money All right the oxen zone and a champion heifer and what do you for two thousand let's go 1500 Yeah This is barto florida in the very heart of the state Midway between the north and southern extremities of florida and midway between the atlantic ocean and the gulf of mexico We're at the imperial eastern brahman show and sale the show is over the prizes the medals the ribbons have been awarded And here the cattle is being sold This is going on in the barto livestock pavilion Uh, which on the outside looks like a brand new low red brick and concrete gymnasium and on the inside lined with steel And asbestos in a way it looks something like a basketball court Except that on the floor you have great piles of red wood shavings in the ring is a ball Along the sides of the ring the ringmen who take the bids from the audience relay them to the auctioneer Who's standing on a platform at the end of the hall It's a heifer this time a huge brown creature with heavy littered eyes and a placid amusement at all this activity But she's a prize winner and every man here would like to add this one to his herd It's hot and the smell of the animals hangs in the air like a visible thing But no one minds the chant of the auctioneer comes like some kind of intoxicating music Examine her again mark the broad back the strong legs make your bid There's 625 when we get 50 you're buying two and one now gentlemen Two and one that's just a little over three hundred and twelve and a half feet Now I've got six and a quarter to get six and nine Six and nine You better not take a time off to drink on a heifer like this because i'm gonna sell 750 now 75 Well, I'll tell you what's it the man said he gives seven hundred and sixty dollars down here. Why don't you get out of $800 Yes, you did That's what you get for messing around like that 825 and now the 50 there. Do you want them at 850? I got 825 now 50. She's been here too long now gentlemen I've got eight and a quarter you want to date 50 850 Thank you. Just make it 900. George. That's the way to buy it. Do you get 900? I got 850 right here. I want 900 on 875 one at 875 twice Do you want it 875? Put it around at 850 your man 850 I'm told that you're gene griffin and that you're president of the eastern brahman readers association Perhaps you can tell me what is this noise all about? Well, this noise that you hear going on here this afternoon is the sale of the purebred cattle the fourth annual Imperial eastern brahman show and sale held here in bar to each year you say this is the sale after the show That's right. But then how does that work gene exactly what goes on? Well, the first two days of the show is to show the placings of the various cattle. It's in and into the show And this afternoon is the sale of the cattle many of which were in the show In other words the breeders selling their cattle to other cattlemen That's exactly right. Well now, you know coming down here and expecting to find oranges and cotton It's kind of a surprise to hear that kind of a sound coming out of a big barn outside of barto How did that come about gene? Well, Florida naturally has been in the cow business for many years, but only on a small scale And in the last few years, Florida has come from I believe 33rd to now 13th Well, gene, then how about you yourself? I take it you have a wrench Yes, we have a ranch my two sons got me started in the cattle business. I've always been in the citrus business Uh, they bought a cave as a full H project and they done right well And we've just kept buying land and raising cattle till we got into the cow bed How does that work out gene is compared to raising oranges. How is it raising cattle? It's a very good combination. Uh, we just want to raise more grass on the land we have and we'll settle for that It just looks like you can carry any number of head by looking after your property without adding any more acres And you're happy the way you are. Oh, yes, we're very happy the situation as it is And there are new names Romo sinuana and the brahman breeds for beef red Cindy beautiful and bountiful with milk Several years ago the bureau of dairy industry imported from India the best milking strain of the brahman breed Which is the red sundae and that is being crossed with the dairy breeds in the area such as the jersey and guernsey and holstein Mr. Southwell, I wonder if you could tell us what you do in this industry. We are Breeding these red Cindy bulls to pure bred jersey cattle at the tifton station Making an effort to develop strains that are better able to withstand the long hot Summers of the area and better able to produce milk We sought out the beginnings of all this thinking that indeed it must have been something huge to work this change over the land But we found that the moving factor was well in the final analysis It was a blade of grass You've heard it said that the gulf stream need only shift a few miles and a whole civilization would be changed A glacier advances or retreats a degree or two and prosperity or disaster rains over a continent In our case it was a new type of grass that brought this latter-day miracle a new type of forage Coastal Bermuda grass they call it an innocuous looking weed It seems at first glance but actually a prime mover and the harbinger of the revolution that swept the south In earlier years cattle growing was unprofitable in the south the forage was inadequate It was too expensive to raise the timmathies and other grasses that grow so easily on the plains of the west But a few years ago a few scientists began to work on the problem and well Let's let dr. Glenn Burton chief geneticist of the tifton experiment station tifton georgia tell us how it all began Dr. Burton, what is coastal Bermuda grass? It's a cross between a native Bermuda the mr. Stevens picked up in the cotton patch back in 1929 an African Bermuda because it is a hybrid that produces quite a bit more than ordinary Bermuda Dr. Burton, I don't want to embarrass you in any way, but I understand that you are the one man who developed coastal Bermuda grass Could you tell us how you came to do that? Well, we've been at it a long time. We started back in 1936 looking over some good Bermudas that came in from Africa and some that had been picked up locally In 1937 we made some 5000 hybrids started screening those in 1938 trying to find the best one by the fall of 1939 We knew pretty well that we had about eight or nine out of that original 5000 It had disease resistance frost resistance spread very rapidly produced a great deal more forage when cut for hay than ordinary Bermuda But there were still many things we needed to know In cooperation with mr. Southwell. We put in what we call the Bermuda grass cafeteria planted duplicate plots Of these nine best Bermudas what there dr. Betten. What did your cafeteria look like? Well, it was a group of plots It looked very much like I suppose an ordinary pasture to the average person As a matter of fact, we had to put up stakes to mark the corners of the plots But when the cows got through they had marked the edges of the plots because they Actually grazed the ones they liked best right up to the line and then stopped How much would you say this grass is now being used dr. Betten? How prevalent is use of it in Georgia? We estimate there's about a half a million acres in coastal Bermuda We do not know what the acreage is in other states. It's not near to that much, but it's increasing very rapidly And that's since when Well, actually we started the distribution on it about 1943 But it's only within the last few years that people have really started planting it So what was considered a pest is now a great benefit That's about what it amounts to some of our better farmers are actually planting coastal Bermuda from their own Nurses cheaper than they can plant other grasses that are planted from seed Well, at best then dr. Betten, this is 10 years old, let's say What has the application of coastal Bermuda grass done to the cattle industry here? If you figure it on the basis of the increase in the state as a whole at amount to 60 million pounds more beef Produced each year in Georgia If you figure that at 20 cents a pound that amounts to 12 million dollars more farm income each year Is this something that's confined to the south or does it have other applications? Quite definitely to the south. We have the area of our coastal Bermuda is well adapted Back at the auction. We asked some of the men who had turned to this new industry What factors had moved them to make the change? We asked LS Harris a former fruit grower why he had turned part of his farm over to cattle It's kind of fascinating in the cattle business. You spend more time with the cattle and you do with your grows Because it's something living and moving and it just takes something to you And the final voice Henry pardon the first man to bring brahman cattle into this part of the country Why mr. Pardon? Did you make this change? Well, we the years before we'd got a lot of bulls brahman bulls shipped into the states here And we saw the need of them in our low-coast country And what is that done to the animals? Well, it makes them heartier Much thriftier they grow faster and they're much longer life These brahman cattle are longer life than any cattle I've ever dealt with How about the people who are in the business? Are they doing better? Well, definitely so would you recommend others to do what you've done? Well, I'm still punishing a meal ticket in this bed Of course, they were not alone strong forces were marshaled in their behalf Many minds and many hands were joined to theirs for them new allies The proprietors of the neatly labeled test tubes the writers of weekly reports Those who seek truths that can only be perceived through powerful microscopes Listen to this voice dr. George k. Davis animal nutritionist at the florida agricultural experiment station And professor of nutrition at the university of florida What changes have been worked in this laboratory? One of the first things that developed in florida and for which he is very well known Is there a research in kumbalt? I might point out that without the use of kumbalt There probably would not be the cattle industry in the state that there is today In 1942 when I came here the average weight of the mature animals was about 450 pounds Today the average weight of cattle is about 750 without the knowledge that kumbalt Was required and couldn't be fed Even these improved pastures would not Enable the cattle to develop dr. Davis. You are a man who is in search of kumbalt We were in search of how kumbalt functioned We were in search of where that kumbalt was in the animal and what it was doing But we were looking for such a small amount of kumbalt that our ordinary chemical techniques simply would not Detect it we went up to massachusetts institute of technology and they very kindly agreed to On a service basis supply us with radioactive isotopes of kumbalt Actually, I think less than 300 dollars was spent all together for radioactive kumbalt And that was enough for us to use it on five or six cows and maybe 150 rats In actually feeding this radioactive kumbalt and tracing where it went and what it was doing in the animal Then dr. Davis, how about some of the other things that go into the making of a cow apart from kumbalt? I think probably the most dramatic story in florida has been the story of copper on the peat or muck soils of the state there's Many people have pointed out Florida's muck soils are among the most productive in the world. That's in the everglades is that's in the everglades But also in a great many other areas in the state without copper production was nil But with copper it's possible to produce great quantities of forage and large well-bred cattle How actually is the copper applied to the cow in the everglades two ways? One is by putting it on as fertilizer so that it comes up in the grass The other is to put it in a mineral box in front of her so she can go and eat it And both of them are required What does the copper actually do to it? We had one very clear cut experiment on muckland where cattle For a period from april through the first of august had been on these pastures without copper And had a net gain of six pounds per animal over that period of time In other words, they just didn't gain at all. We went in and fertilized the pastures and put copper in their mineral boxes for them the next year April through the first of august same length of time Same pasture except for copper and the average gain per animal was 250 pounds more During that period per animal The one venture was a total loss so far as the cattleman was concerned. The other was a very profitable venture Sounds to me dr. Davis as though you're manufacturing artificial cows in the everglades Well, that is almost true. Yeah, many people have seen cattle in the everglades With all they could eat and lush beautiful grass starving to death And essentially it has been a mineral deficiency problem Then you have created what amounts to a great commercial value. How do you estimate that? We have tried numerous times to figure out just how much our research is worse than in terms of the cattle industry in the state Our best estimate is that each year it returns The neighborhood of four to five million dollars in addition to what would have been returned without this research Or put it another way this research is worth to the farmers of florida between four and five million dollars a year But there was we knew something else Something that could not be measured in annual income or number of acres under cultivation A hidden factor not to be charted or measured on a graph Is dr. George wise animal nutritionist of the university of north carolina A large landowner in this state told me recently that The living standard of the tenant farmer and he has some 40 or 50 tenants on his farm That it was impossible to raise the living standard of these tenants without livestock on their farm Then there is in addition to the profit angle Something about animals that attracts Boys and girls especially To me a rather significant statement was made a few weeks ago when I was discussing with a Warren county farmer This livestock Interest in our state today And he told me this That no boy or girl In his community Who owned a lamb or a pig or a calf of his or her very own Had left the farm Surely that was part of it part of this renaissance that has been born in the south You see it along a hundred roads farms repaired now and painted power lines stretching off across the hills Cattle grazing on new grasses whose very names are still strange new crops New ways of doing things faces that have turned from the past to the future The tyranny of the cotton is ended and now in the south they know a new freedom Undreamed of a scant 10 years ago. What was that? He told us that sunday morning The 11 o'clock service was just ending the music of the recessional was still sounding from the open door of the little church Perhaps it was the words he had just heard there. Perhaps it was the music But when he spoke to us of his craft the words came easily and sure It's a way of life You love the outdoor life and you love the independence of a farmer a farmer is the most independent man in the world He answers to nobody except his god His mouth curved in a smile when he said that but his eyes held nothing of laughter I'm joking. He seemed to say I speak in mirth, but we are wise And we know what the gesture was worth You have been listening to the land is new the second in the series of programs designed to tell the story of the new changes that have come to the south This series is written and directed by william allen bales produced by miss lee f. Peyton Next week at this time the story of the forest of the south heritage over the land The preceding was transcribed. This is the nbc radio network


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