Hello everybody if it's Wednesday, it's Warhammer, and that must mean it's time for another episode of Warhammer Weekly I will now bring my mic closer to myself because I realized I didn't do that. Sorry everyone But I was think I was probably sufficiently loud there at the beginning As always I'm joined by my co-host Tyler That's getting closer and closer to true Tyler that it's in as always, but we did have Tom last week So that's okay. We did I enjoyed that. Yeah, that was that that was a good show Turns that Tom's pretty good at this when he shows up Well that's second part being very important. Absolutely also joining us on the show for the first time Someone who did very well at one of the tournaments. We're gonna be speaking about this weekend. Loran. What's up, buddy? How you doing? I'm doing really good. Happy to be here. I Am very happy to have you a fellow slanesh Enthusiast is always welcome here at the temple of hedonism. We we welcome you in It's it's great slanesh is loving claw-like embrace That is both cold and hot pain and pleasure is always ready to accept Other adherents in we we we're so glad so We are gonna be talking about a couple tournaments over the tonight We're gonna talk about the what we see in the state of the meta kind of things We want to we want to maybe see in place and change where where are the bad spots Where are the good spots so on and so forth? We're also going to talk about how successful we think this new fangle GHB is turning out. Are people all dying to blizzard? I guess you'll you'll know by the end of this so the first up, of course the news Tyler. What do we got? The news. All right first time looking at this two minutes ago I'm gonna go with first thing. Kurnoff. That's Kurnoff. He can close the books models coming Kurnathi Excited Laurent Kurnoff is on the way clearly If they go deeper into like the centaur thing, I'll be about it Okay, okay. Yeah. Yeah, I did love that model of that of that somewhat odd-looking world-band. That was a little weird, but Advance the idea does look like el corns with Sort of algae hanging off of it like that's pretty much what we're seeing here guy sure could be could be a Nurgle thing could be a lot of things I suppose.  So at least it's in our our wheelhouse But yeah, I mean I My answer is I Have no idea But if you were right if it was a Kurnathi thing, wouldn't that be great? Isn't it funny how there's like six armies they've teased For the eight years that AOS has existed and we've seen like basically one of them, right? Yeah silent people the chaos dwarves Kurnathi Malarian we still haven't I mean I guess technically maybe we've seen some of Malarian's elves. No, I mean sure Malarian Yeah, definitely. We haven't seen an army. Yes, one unit hiding in in Marathi's forces don't count. We got Goblin sky pirates. Sure. Absolutely. Yeah Let's take a look at it earlier and it looked like For the past year we haven't seen any Almost anything from the rumor engines. Yeah, that blog early. I was like, I don't know. Ah, yes a war boss kergin there It's either the man does the Lord's work By the way doom and darkness in the chat. What a shout out. Hey doom. Hope you're doing well there, buddy It's been a it's been a hot minute since we've chatted one of one of the nicest guys. He's taking care of himself He's over there. He's living his best life. Do my hope you're doing well, brother All right, what's next? Next up we have cities of Sigma or pre-order. It's finally happening. Yes, our big $200 box we're getting a novel and Yeah It we also have been seeing this nice series of articles. They've been doing which has been pretty fascinating I'm actually getting into cities of Sigma now a little bit more Kind of wish they would have maybe done this a little earlier, but it's it's a good time for it You guys been seeing the articles been rolling out as well as part of this launch week I have the design ones. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, Laurent. Talk about I want I want your Laurent I want your take on cities Sort of in general, right? What do you think of the models? What do you think these articles? Yes. Oh pine for a little while. I do love the design Articles let's give them a little feedback on what they were thinking about when they created these models.  Yeah, you're One thing guarantee I will butcher words After all that dinner saw Thalia Thalia. I love her Can't wait together can't wait the runner in most list I play I will I will definitely be playing this one. I love it. I think it's gonna be me I haven't looked at the over at all But I'm also super excited about war hydras Okay All right, lots of damage lots of attacks heels five just keep them alive somehow Make people sad The herk so travis and bregg played a game last night did and I heard that celestial hurricane I'm pretty tasty I uh, I do enjoy the weird world we the ups the weird upside down world we live in Where people were playing a game With a thing that we cannot talk about yet on this show. That is really Great. It's just fantastic And by the way, we will not be doing the even though we we could do the city's book next week We will not be doing the city's book next week because next week is the nova open So next wednesday will be the nova reveal show. I am expecting to see a lot of stuff there I better see something about big pig and when big pig is coming.  I am going to stand up and throw a chair in the auditorium I want that to be known So if I don't do the show on wednesday talking about the nova reveal It will be because I've been escorted out by the police. That's the that's because I started a fight So there you go. Uh, my fingers crossed that that one's not able to be bow line I do not want to have to buy three of them because I will buy three of them Or do you want to buy three of them? No, no, no other way around you'll have the chance to get three of them. How about that? Uh At any rate, so we'll do cities in two weeks, uh, which will be an easy five to six weeks after most people talked about it On the internet. So right on time Thrilled about it. Okay Uh, so what's uh, what's next? What's next? Next up speaking of iron jaws. We have our hard boy big boss Oh I love this guy. Uh, he's he's pretty fancy. He's got that beautiful mask big old weapon just dripping iron jaws And I mean it looks like a brute, but that's fine. It's okay Uh, I mean surely this means we're gonna get more than just a big pig and this guy Give us new hard boys Just expand the range just a little bit slightly Mm-hmm. No this I know I This legitimately got me excited because I was expecting only big pig and then they put this out and I was like, wait a minute Could we be getting more? Could there be what what else are we getting? Uh, and suddenly my whole week turned around My iron jaws force has been stable and basically like I haven't painted a model for it and you know, I don't know what Six years or something, right?  What do I like? Where am I going from here? Right? What am I doing here? And Then all of a sudden we got the second model now You have my attention Okay, so I want to know is there more again I better know by next week like if we go to the if we do a reveal show And it looks like if this falls perfectly in the middle where we learned nothing Gonna be upset So this guy's great though. Love this dude. I love is I love the like cloak of chain The way it's like roman style hanging over is his his arm, you know Fantastic. Yeah, he's pretty amazing.  This guy's awesome. If there's gonna be more I can't wait. Let's see it. It should be fantastic. So Uh, one of my aesthetically favorite ranges they've ever released in the history of aos. I just think is an absolute home run And it just has such a such a great personality. It's so fun to play So, yeah, I mean more units is great I I've never really minded only have seven years only having seven units, but we can go up to like 10 that'd be fine 10 is still manageable. That's okay 10 is fine. I still want 70 10 is fine All right, what else we got Yeah, let's see Last thing met a watch article Yeah Was covered last week, but I guess not So not really. This was the the formal image of it. I just want to thought we'd share it out and talk about I think this actually came out on thursday or maybe it came out wednesday right before the show But we didn't get a chance to catch it um Hey Hey now Uh Things that jumped out to me first of all laron, I don't know if you saw this chart But I can't help it notice that those heave knights of slanesh that you're tooling around with Are a little out of bounds there You meta chaser. No, it's fine That's not my fault at all. Um I was playing them before they were good and other people made them good There you go. There you go Uh, yeah, very nice. I gotta rep laron vence. I I don't know if you know this dude. He went 5o Before the new book with slanesh That's great. No, I I I know laron actually has a long history and and and passed with Slanesh given our conversations. So yes, I'm just just shiting our new guest. He's he's earned his slanesh stripes. Absolutely But yeah, obviously, I think that's we all know that the real two out of bounds armies here are so light And I'll see how this will this will talk well into our discussion later but uh Boy, look at that down at the bottom the under the the underhang. Oof A lot of 44 percent's there a lot of them Yeah Yeah, I was feeling that this weekend You feeling that bottom rank army storm cast the turtles you took to the army there? Oh, yeah, just just a little bit. Yeah, and Not even running a top the line storm cast list for good measure But the year of sadism continues. It's it's all I need to start playing slanesh next year. It's been a good time That'll be the exact right time because I'm sure by next year it'll invert That is the that's the trend Mm-hmm Uh, yeah, I mean overall really interesting. It's not it's never good when your poster faction Your poster boy faction is your lowest Win rate and like just Just dying just dying Yeah, the uh, anyway, we'll get into it Absolutely So I thought this would be a good framing for tonight a lot of people in the middle But we do have and we got a lot of the lower cusp Right, they clearly need some help if they can start winning like one more game on average at a tournament It makes a huge difference, right? That's it's a big big deal Yeah, I think cruel boys There are some armies that are down there that have more gas than the win rates would suggest I think cruel boys and Sylvaneth are too Lumineth arguably is another one Yeah, a number of them down there. It's gaven. But yeah, we can we can talk about maybe Able some of these armies obviously nergal. Absolutely. I don't count anything to do with cities because obviously that's like All right, whatever Yeah, I do I do think storm cast is truly in a tough spot at the moment relative to those others. Maybe knight haunt as well Yeah, night night haunts pretty tough Night hunt will surprise you though, so you can't really do too much to him without just exploding all of a sudden Yeah It's fun. It's true. All right. Well, we're gonna we're gonna deep dive on all of this more and talk about the armies. We saw everything like that Uh, but of course, uh Let's get on to some other sections first here Let's talk about some pick Of the week here before we deep dive into the meta in the current world. La Ron. What would you like to share with everybody? I Would like to I've been playing a lot of baldergate three You're not A lot and so I would like to Put everybody on a wolf heart FPS he puts out a ton of videos for uh, baldergate three some Builds some less right now. He's doing a let's play baldergate three, which is going over pretty smooth and then It's going it's pretty fun to watch. There's so many decisions you can make to just you know ruin your life to At least in the game and then real life Probably affecting the sleep a little bit nice The real question is how many people out there in the audience right now are playing baldergate three As they're watching this on a separate screen. That's the question How how many of you put in the chat right now if you're actively at this moment playing baldergate three And we're on the other screen just being like background noise to a to a baldergate three game Uh, all right, tyler, what are you sharing with everybody? Oh, let's see what so aos coach is back. He did a good video on updated lord of flies updated bugs now with bellicor Some other goodies. So that was a good discussion of nergal in the season Events we've been talking about doing a show at some point revisiting nergal because they're one of the bottom Feeders at the moment whether they belong to be there or not. So I thought that that was nice to see The other one is I watched silo on apple tv Taking that bud. I'm not. What is it? I don't know anything about it is a science fiction show It's about kind of post apocalypse world folks are living in a silo underground with hundreds of stories Hundreds of levels. I don't know how many levels and it is fascinating. Yeah, it's It's really cool. They can't go out for certain reasons. There's a lot of mystery to it. Good science fiction good story development I was pretty blown away blown away by uh, rebecca fergusson. She's probably the lead star What has she been and she's been a mission impossible all kinds of amazing films Uh, she was in a movie with Hugh jackman may month for forgetting, but uh, yeah highly highly recommend it LeRon you've seen that Has been seen by me folks. I have apple tv and I've watched zero shows on it One I was going to was the God I started with it. Here's I can't remember the name. It was nation Or what just a nation though. It was uh, uh, it's about super in the future uh Biggs, I think there's like a rock the main character starts off as a young girl Going to school on a different planet foundation Yeah, foundation name of it. Yeah foundation is great too. Yeah based on yeah, obviously azimov isaac azimov's novels based science fiction loosely based loosely based Yeah, I've been enjoying that one too Nice very good stuff on there. All right. Well, first of all we I'm glad to see about five people in the chat admitted to playing balder's gate three right now at the same time so that's fantastic Get after it, you know the for me my pick of the week and I've got two of them the first pick is to Is for the trapped under plastic the boys answer in some hobby questions great time Go check it out. It's a fun episode. They also point out my greatest shame Uh, specifically they call me out and that is because tyler when I paint I paint like this Okay, like I'm holding the brush with this like ridiculous grip Whereas every other painter paints like this with this like very fingertip grip, okay, and Uh, I have this like awful claw grip that I developed, you know years ago and I've just never Never corrected. I didn't even realize I was so Insane with my grip until years ago. This is like four or five years ago I was sitting with sam lens like painting over the weekend. We were just hanging out painting and I watched him Uh, I watched him painting and then I looked at how I was holding the brush and I was like Have I been doing this wrong for my entire life? Right. Uh, that's funny and uh, but at that point it was like Uh, it's 20 years into me painting. It's too late. I'm I I'm into it, right? I can't I can't relearn now Like my joints have all fused like that. That's it It's the definition of like if you make that funny face It's going to stay like that for the rest of your life. You know your mom warned you about when you were a kid So at any rate, it was a great great episode uh So yes, go yeah, there you go. Dana says shout out for claw club. Yeah. Come on claw club. Let's go That's right. Where my where my fellow claw claw grips at Uh, and my second pick is uh for my uh wife Who is warhammer? widow warhammer weekly widow on twitter and Because today is my 20th wedding anniversary Today august 23rd 2023 20 years ago I got married to my wife. So there you go A banniversary Thank you very much. I'm just wanted to so shout out to her and I I have a very lovely wonderful Partner who supports me and everything and and is obviously I'm still doing this show on the night of our 20th wedding anniversary So it's I must have a pretty great partner. So there you go um All right Uh with that, let's turn to some hobby time all right hobby time Uh, I haven't been uh, no, no, no. I'm sorry. I haven't been painting anything. Leave me alone. I'm busy Well, we'll come to you in a minute. I'm working on ball. It's not your turn yet. You just wait right there All right lauren go ahead. Okay lauren I've been working on lumen f. I was been pushing towards making a non-tech list um, it was Mainly like 15 blade lords, but I might have to switch focus because I heard a waste when five and oh this past weekend And I just want to not yeah now I might not be able to play that list because now it's cool and uh Can't do that I understand that I understand the drive I I too always want to be a hipster with my lists I get it. I get that so hard lauren like I was I mean I ran cars I last year or whatever at at nash con so I I super get it um Tyler what what have you been painting? You thought you thought I was gonna skip you? No, uh, I've already answered. I'm done Okay, when when do you plan to start painting? I got two non-painting coos. Tyler. I can't have that one of you's got to paint I will never paint will never be me November November 2023 November that's when you'll get back to it. I will have to paint at some point in November 2023 at post-vault wars Okay, okay. Let me do it. Hold me to it. All right. We'll do that Every day that you're not doing it's another day gets harder to do it just stacks you just stack in bricks my friend You just stack in bricks All right, and yes, I agree everybody should hit like that would be great Yeah, don't don't forget to hit like and do all those fun things. Um, if you want to for my 20th anniversary That's fine. Otherwise just hit like because it's fun to do so and helps the channel Um, I have not been sitting on my haunches. I have been doing quite a lot of different hobby stuff Unlike this this guy this guy right here uh So I finished up this dude. He's all done. You can see he's on a base now.  Where's that? This is a he is a 3d printed barbarian guy. I don't know. He's from a Uh, like from somebody Anthony Pocastro sent me these 3d prints Um, he sent me like a link to a Kickstarter a while back and was like, do you like these?  Pocastro. He's he's truly one of the greatest humans among us one of the Co-runners of Nashcon this past weekend so that all connects But yeah, this is a lot of fun. So he's all done now and uh, we got some videos coming for him So look forward to the future for that.  What's the last game's workshop model that you painted? I Like two weeks ago before I went I finished up the whole unit of I just grabbed one because I only got one But I finished up the whole unit of these guys The little my little tron towel. I got all my I got my stealth suit unit done Um, it's 40. It's 40 k. It's 10 to kill it even that's fine. All right. I'm sorry You asked that right here. I got it. I got more I can I can go get more Um, the pat I like I also I've got this big guy. He's like next he's one of the next step ones. I want to get you. Look at this thing. Look at him It looks amazing. So I can't wait to paint that guy. I'm pretty excited. I don't even know what he is Coast keel or something. I don't know. Yeah, it's probably the ghost carry. It looks tiny So yeah on that basis a ghost kill. All right, cool. Yeah, I don't know what these things are called I just thought they look cool. Um, but anyways, yeah, so that's there you go Tyler Gotcha Yeah, I wouldn't even challenge you on it. I know Come at the king. Tyler. You best not miss. That's all I'm saying, buddy. Okay Uh, so and then also I've been prepping up a bunch of models for, uh Nova next week because I got to teach next week at nova. So so I've also got to get all that ready uh Okay Cool. Uh, hey, what are you working out on out there as always with our hobby time? You know dropping down in the comments. Tell us about it. Um And I if that if like I agree that was like the coolest looking battle suit I'm I love robits and people in in robit mechs are cool. So there you go All right gentlemen With that Shall we turn to some uh to the topic today? Yep. Yep. All right So We're going to talk about two tournaments uh one two tournaments before you that's what I said now and Uh, we want to talk a little about the current meta and everything, but we're going to look at it through the lens of these two things So let's let's set the let's set the stage first This previous weekend two very fun tournaments happened. So Nashcon, which obviously takes place in Nashville, Tennessee Uh and had I think a hundred and There's 112 people at day registration. I think 108 finished or something like that somewhere around that number um and then Gateway open, which where where is that? Is it in st. Louis? Is that where it is? It's right outside st. Louis and Collinsville, Illinois at the gateway center. So it's about 35 minutes from my house So Nice So nice pretty smooth drive Pretty a huge center. It's the same place. They host uh our connet every year if you're in the cons nice very cool And so Tyler and Laurent went to gateway open and this was this was Tyler's year for gateway. He alternates here He alternates every other year And so that was we we've got a uh, Nashcon and gateway open have joint custody of Tyler Yeah I love I mean I've been told by Jeff and Dave it's out of their hands. That's their excuse four years running So I'm guess that's going to be their excuse next year. You know, they they just can't do it Like we can split the atom. We could we could do all kinds of amazing things as humans, but we can't Change the gates of two events. I have a good That they're going to make a solid attempt next year. Oh solid. Okay, fantastic All right, well, I'm excited to go to Nashcon and to take all kinds of crap for missing gateway next year All right, looking looking forward to it more Tyler can't win Mindy frankies said uh question. What tournaments does gw use for the meta? So their data set is basically anything that they can pull through the api. So that's most of the major tournament reporting Um applications. So like bcp and all these other formats all have apis where they can pull detailed data That's all scraped and then put into a database In general when you look at meta watch, they they pull everything but generally meta watch is two day tournaments and stuff like that They do segment down to sort of two day five round tournaments those kinds of things But they'll look into the full data set to answer other questions. It's my understanding of everything. So Yep, you know, basically like as many as they can get their hands on their database is quite large. So Um, okay, cool. So those are the two tournaments. We all went we all played five rounds We all had a fun time. It's good stuff We want to talk about our experiences here a little so but Uh, I'd like to talk just a little bit about kind of what we saw What we felt the vibe was Uh, you know the new season. This is just high level stuff. We just talk at a high level here for a minute. Okay not not detailed So I'll say I had a great time Nashcon was was fantastic as always I had five amazing opponents, uh, like really really I had games that I was like, oh, yeah, this is why I play warhammer Because this is like incredible fun Um, like I was such a rejuvenating thing to go to this tournament And it was great to see that chuck made it out. I saw he did. Yes chuck And his whole crew was down there, uh, shon and jake from the and then a bunch of the other detroit Crew was there, uh, and then obviously, you know tough crowd was there in force The the the whole the whole gang So bud came down from canada again. It was good to see him. It was a budtastic guy. It's always a wonderful thing um I brought suns tyler you brought storm cast and laron brought the heat knights of slanesh So and we'll take a look at our specific lists later on You know at a high level You'll have to wait to see how many how many wins we each got we'll talk about it when we talk about our lists We'll we'll talk about it in a minute. I guess because we're gonna we're gonna look at the results So we'll we'll get to that in a second Uh, but here's what I thought at a high level The tournament went really smooth at nashkon even in the new season very few rules questions very few judge calls Like incredibly amicable up and down the tables from top to bottom I don't know. How is it how is it over for you guys a similar experience or or Yeah, tyler what you you take it first and then the ron. I want to get perspective as well Yeah, pretty smooth. Yeah, we didn't really have any rules issues The I gave jeff feedback on the the round time laron knows my opinion on this I just think at third edition were were a three hour minimum. It's just it's two It's too tough with 245 Especially if you do anything like where players have to set up terrain jeff didn't do that for this event He just had the terrain all preset up, but Yeah, that that was one of the main points feedback. But in general, yeah amazing time gateway open is is always fantastic laron Did you have any things that came up or I have a good authority that next year will be three hour rounds All right, I can I started off strong on saturday given given jeff grief before the round one is over I at least waited to the end of the tournament. You are you are known to be a little nicer than me at time. Yeah I'm an old man That was the same Everybody was friendly. There was tons of cool looking armies. There was a guy there with like all like giant spiders I did my best to try to rig it. So he won best army, but it didn't work out All my games were great. I played some people Except for two. I played three new people this year I didn't know which was great and Well, one of them my name But the vibe is awesome. Uh gateway open always has I use it as a 10-point to figure out how I'm doing locally Could I run the tournaments here as well? And each year it was I just know I did a little bit more to make that happen The community grows and it's almost like growing a second family. So all the people I loved it was a great time Nice nice. Okay. Now, let's do some fun personal stats if you can remember them. You ready? Here we go Okay, fun personal stats How many times did you get Blizzarded not did you blizzard someone else? How many times did you get? Successfully get blizzarded where you are on the receiving end of a blizzard that was successfully cast Zero over there for laran. Okay Tyler That's a lie. That's a lie. I got blizzard at once. Okay. One time. Well one blizzard. All right Tyler. That's where I'm at. I yeah once people tried more than once Yep, they definitely tried One time. I didn't know what's further we're trying to cast They're like, they're like, oh got it. I'm like, I think you like was it blizzard. Um, I think that's a 12 He's like, oh Yeah, yeah, it's a 12. Oh me also one for me as well So there you go. It's interesting across the board again. So I'd say the same thing multiple people tried They tried and failed they tried and died Uh, so One one one blizzard each. Okay. Okay. All right How many times did you see in a game that you played? Did anybody lose a wizard in a game that you played to a primal miscast? Laurent any any primal miscasts to actually kill? like the wizard Nope I will say I did my first primal mid cast but I did not lose a wizard to it The wizard did not die. Okay. All right Tyler, what about you any any, uh No, I had a A nice chain explosion and a test game leaving up to to gateway open from somebody But no None at gateway just they're loran man this year. There were so many strong players like high just it felt All right, like highly experienced just very detail oriented excellent decision making Yeah, like I had never seen that level like a we open at that not mean that the level had been low Previously, but it was just it was quite high this year, which was yeah times of people. I didn't know I was like, oh man, this is gonna be a fun time I only got to play one person that I knew was a very sound player, but it was worth it. I do have a funny blizzard story I'm wrong. I definitely want that. Yeah So my friend smithy was playing against I believe his name was justin. He's playing the spider army He said that justin Teleported his web spinner salmon In front of a zombie lord and nuked it with blizzard just blew it up Blew it up. I was like, so you almost lost to that list. That's so good But this is this was sneaky. It was super sneaky. It's so good. I love that Uh, I love it. I love a teleporting blizzard wizard. Everybody does. Okay, fantastic Uh, for me, I didn't I had no wizards in my army. So it was impossible for it to happen to me uh, and I uh No, no, no primal miscast at all everybody I played against as soon as they saw one on the initial dice, they were like Up. Nope. Yeah I'm good Staying away Yeah, I mean like that's one of the things that stood out is how often you seem to roll one like a one on your two dice Roll with casting now that you're actually paying attention to how many times you roll a one It's like, yeah, every other cast it happens. It's like, okay. Nope. No primal for me And as a fun side story, um, Nashcon, as you know, Tyler tracks all sorts of uh, things for secondary awards, right? So like most monsters killed most generals killed Um There was a battle tactics. Yes, then there was most self Explosions, so your own number of primal miscast that killed your character, right?  Okay, I like that one.  So that's pretty crazy Yeah That being said there were games where I personally gave people like there was two games where I personally gave people eight monster kills Or something like that, right? You know just because of because of all the baby gargants. I was running all right, yeah And then the guy who won I don't remember his name. I apologize, but the the the guy who won Uh, most self emulations He had six Six so that means he did it more than once per game On average Wow That is a guy who when he rolled a one on the on the initial cast he got excited He was like, yeah, give me that primal dice, baby. Let's go Uh, so there you go. Um chase. No, I don't I think that's I think it's a thing I think they're letting people make that decision with clear eyes. I think that's part of the the I think that's part of the experience, right? I think it's part of how they want it to work I think it's working completely as intended um, all right A little little quick other question on just again high level uh and so Here is here is my next question How many in the games you were playing was everybody taking the new like out of your five games How many people had the new? Spells had locusts or had the battalion, you know, did you feel that like magic was actually a focus again in the armies you played against?  Well, we'll let Lauren think Uh, game one. Yeah game two not particularly game three. Yeah Game four. Yep, and game five. Yep four four out of five. Okay. Okay. Got you Mainly whorefrost and I would say one at least one if not both Yeah, I didn't see any incarnates at least that I played or any up at the top table So nobody having rupture like nobody trying the self The self rupture trick that I that I noted. Um Not say it was in the room. I just didn't catch it, right Another game four. Yeah, Jonathan's each. Yeah, he was leaning against rupture incarnate. Yep the self rupture. All right LaRon, what about you? Did you feel like people were leaning into the magic in the new season? In my first round. Yes My second round. Definitely. I was playing against each and third round no Just my first and second round Where probably really hard one of them even Both of them even had the new, uh Battalion battalion battalion, which I did tell Tyler was good No, your words were Vince was wrong and he's an idiot. I think Yeah, this is wrong. We're not the second part. Not the second part. All right. All right. I'm less misunderstood. All right, that's all right But yeah, just those two games one was cool boys. The other one was each everybody else now Gotcha. Yeah for me four out of my five opponents had, you know locuses and blizzard or Uh, whorefrost or both on their their lists, right? Um, uh My game five we had there was no wizards the entire board.   And so anytime I saw that but that that And or in battalion I was like fantastic. I welcome this. This means nothing to me Okay, I Like I did get blizzard at once and it was at the bottom of a late round When I didn't have the unbinding potential left and it wasn't the right choice anyways And it did like nine wounds to a baby giant and it was like, okay Okay, well cool.  Yes. So, okay. That's how I live my life as well Absolutely, we're all the protectors Um, but yeah, I mean to me I all it did was reinforce all of my beliefs I was like magic is dumb. It doesn't mean anything. I need to be able to dispel one or two spells around It's all I need.   Have a good time I'll be over here. Tell me when you cast something that matters Okay, and then I'll get out these primal dice and attempt to dispel you until then conuts um So magic is up right now Yeah, it's so it's it's interesting all around Uh, okay Uh, let's talk about some results. Just do sorry boop. There we go. Let's get to the right slide There it is. All right gateway open top 10 Uh mergonck a friend of the show in first place with obr null myriad pulling the best general Uh, so, you know, I got the the anti magic strat. I guess Yeah, I got a message from him la ron. I don't think I told you this Two days it was in and the one of our threads vents on facebook I don't know if you saw this he said I've played sold like three or four times And I can't beat them with storm cast so so he copped out. He took the easy way out He went to obr mergonck Spoilers nobody care. I'm sorry bud. This is gonna be hard. Nobody did you mergonck go and read goonhammer.com Go and read mike's article. Look at how many five oh nobody.  How many five o's with storm cast at least none Not even the great matt swinney Not even swinney can pull it off You know, he lost by Some nonsense because he can't roll better than a two up for four matt swinney couldn't roll a two up in the last The last roll of the game I was sitting there watching that when he couldn't he needed to roll a two on a d6 to win the game And he rolled a one and credit to matt swinney who is such a professional and such a consummate gentleman He rolled saw the one looked up at his opponent held his hand shook his hand and said good game And I like just uh just an unbelievably good guy, right? Yeah So but when I look at that uh second place jake Also with no meriod and then what is this in third place laran with slanesh pretenders best overall Way to go there brother way to go And uh, I give my thanks to my friends cat and sean for painting my army beautifully And my bully's on a for uh, let me borrow his display board I love that See the collective provides laran the collective Finds it takes it takes a village. Yeah, that's right What fascinated me about the gateway open results is three out of the four top You know three three out of the three out of the five. That's I'm trying to say top five, right? We're hard anti magic specifically obr no meriod, right? And then laran obviously you're not anti magic, but certainly slanesh pretenders has Plenty of tools to deal with Uh with magic and to play the the game very strongly as well there Between the shooting to to potentially deal with threats, especially very mobile shooters that can get into position and get within that 12 inch Ha ha you can't shoot me barrier As well as just obviously some some pretty decent casters because you know, you've got the epitome and stuff like that in there So you can you can play the game pretty hard yourself so yeah And then we can see the rest there. We're going to look at a couple of these lists, but we got cruel boys in fifth Quaddles claw from seraphon and sixth s2d. What is this now these guys? I'm sorry. I thought they were like 44 but look at this daniel paterson putting up the results with the best chaos spg Uh unsurprisingly note no offense to smitty, of course, but just it's not surprising to see spg in a top 10 And then another no meriod That's it. I think it may be a problem Four out of the top 10s are no meriods. I'm just I'm just saying Yeah, I got a message from my buddy. Jeremiah. He plays uh 40k primarily and he was like, uh Three of the two of the top armies this weekend were no meriod and last week near meriod was everywhere Does al s have a balance problem and then the rest of conversation was me saying no Yes, no, right It's a complicated question Uh, so yeah, so great results from everybody there awesome work, uh The nash con top 10 jason madley taken out that best overall that top spot with nergal drownmen We're gonna look at this list later, but spoilers He has glotkin in the list and he was a terror The man was playing some war hammer. My friend. Let me tell you what, uh, it was it was pretty awesome I got to watch a little bit of one of his games. He was a great great player Uh, the nash con is where you go that nergal's got a shot at five at five. Oh, isn't nash con Well, and that's worth saying something here because there is an important difference here That is worth calling out because it is material and that is nash con has classically had this two-list format Right where you can alter your list in either subtle or quite transformative ways Now as a point of fact jason's lists are almost identical each other. They literally vary by one spell Okay on one model and that's it. Okay, so So it's not as though he was like doing a transformative sideboard effect But it's interesting because you do have that so it can make some other armies that might not otherwise compete Like compete because you can have like if you have there's a lot of armies that have sort of achilles heels But could build a particular build to solve that achilles heel But the problem is if you run that then you drop against the other, you know 70 of the field or whatever, right? So this does give you that option for some of those weaker armies where they've got that whereas what you saw with a lot of the strong players the strong armies the obr armies the Uh, the spg armies stuff like that. They varied their list basically not at all Basically, I don't know they'd very like I they'd vary, you know It's three of mortis guard versus six stalkers in this or six mortis guard versus three stalkers Or you know, you get what I'm saying. All right, that would be the kind of variation maybe at most right Um Fabian uh pulling best general there with uh corn Uh tom guan. I got to watch the very this was actually the the table one final game So, uh, this was tom against Against ryan, uh with the slanesh And so yeah, so he had the um It was a heavy bliss bar list like, you know foot and seekers Going up against tom guan's truly hideously awful unethical Immoral uh zombie spam five up a word list tom knows what he's doing He he's just he's just making a point. I think this is like it's like a protest He's gonna keep playing it until Until the the the obvious brokeness of this gets gets stopped by hooker crook or a battle scroll Um, I mean, it's just you know, tom is an amazing player Very nice guy. He's been on the show.  And Just watching this game go down was just like I can't imagine being the other player. It's just like Okay, these guys all have five ups. These guys all have five ups. This is all happening. Okay. Here's mortal wounds You know, just like da da da da, right? Yeah Amazing. He actually didn't have a I mean, let's see. He had 44 bliss bar bar chers So credit's ryan. He's got a few other things got a couple slick blade seekers bliss bar seekers bellicor epitome the mask Yeah, I mean, that's uh, that's a gentleman's number of this bar 44 within the Yeah, I mean What you saw was tom just being like a machine of being able to just like always accomplish You know five points in the round because that's what the grinding zombies can do Like he always had options for battle tactics He always had options to hold hold one hold two hold more right because just the nature of like what that force allows So, I mean the the he knights player was was on the back foot there for sure, right? Um Then some guy took fourth place.  Oh, I was wondering about that. Yeah, I did that The fa so so they actually just been special for that So they put the faq in place and they allowed anybody who had submitted with those lists To edit their list basically if they needed to make a change So they reopened the list so that people could actually Um do that and then but but anthony being uh the man Decided to stick with it and look at that pulled pulled six though So well well earned there and then tyler this had to make you happy fred Coming in with a sylvaneth harvest boon a lot of bugs pulling best at best order We've been talking about the bugs for a little while here that folks Yeah, I need to switch over to some bugs some kernels swords and this man. Yeah, he's he's got it Mackenzie ewing as well had a lot of bugs which is he went for one This was the weekend for sona finally, right? Like we've been sending them in the dumps down there and it just felt like folks had and switched over to Updating the list for this season and we we saw that. Yeah, we saw some oak and brow saw some harvest boon This multiple four ones this weekend. We had like eight events going on this weekend. Yeah, it's crazy So it's a good weekend for warhammer Uh, so yeah, then we got some gore tide some bone splitters Dragfoot and then some some storm cast rounding out the list there That was actually I watched the end of this game as well I was floating back and forth by the way in round five because obviously my games were done like super early This is right. So I told tyler like I played five rounds every game hour and a half done Like we play suns you'll get done so fast. It's it's great At any rate, I spent the last hour floating between Between tom and ryan at the at the table and then watching Michael play Um matt Yeah, yeah Yeah, michael, I don't know. Do you know if he ran? So we had seen a cascader spam list last season I don't know if that was michael as well Who knows but anyway, yeah, it was a ton of cascaders two three by two tempestores couple of knight and cantors Both with blizzards probably acolytes because acolytes is one of the greatest things in the season right now Despite the opinions of some Maybe presence. So yeah, he's he's doing it. All right I yeah, it's it's it's uh, it's it's cool You know my opinion on spam list. I'm a snob with spam Of course I do want to shout out a couple other fun lists in the other four one category Everybody here deserves mention check out like these were all great players and who obviously going four one at a tournament is absolutely fantastic Uh and and just like a lot of these people are just really really great people And and I've gotten to play some of them in previous years and just had an amazing time Um shout out to jacob barry who was running like three or four doom wheels So that was really fun and a bunch of a bunch of Eschen and just like shooting shooting shooting um, so that was that was obviously uh Very very scary list Uh, also noa. I want to talk about noa. So obviously noa former uh What was he team usa captain or whatever? I think that's right. Um Yeah, I can't remember. I don't remember exactly what was on team usa, but uh, and Uh, he was the person who so he and I met two years ago in round three of nashkan and came to a draw Like a dead on draw Maybe the only like one of the few draws i've ever pulled in a tournament. So that was a really great time Um, noa one of his he was running gets obviously Tyler loran One of his lists. So one of his two lists. He absolutely had a transformative situation.  Yeah, exactly right because remember that they go into other units Oh, yeah, yeah Yeah, I guess maybe no matter what size there. Yeah. Oh, that's amazing. Okay. Yep So 55 always strikes first High rend high damage fanatics. Yep Yep He like if you were a melee list you would get near him and he'd just be like and there's 30 fanatics that pop out and obviously you can't have more than one per unit But they would all just pop out from everywhere, right? Just like coming out of the woodwork And then they would all hit you and it always strikes first and just Red missed anything that got near them Yeah, minus minus two rend d three. That's what I got. That's right. Yeah minus two rend d three. Yeah Yeah, that is correct chris. Some weren't hiding. He had too many to hide them all. Yep, that is correct Yes, that's awesome. So I was great, uh, like There there obviously is still ways to beat it You can draw them out and stuff like that, but no is a great player and that kind of a list is a real terror in the Hands of a great player, right? Um, so Yeah, I I don't know what his loss was too, but uh, but I know but uh, yeah, I I Talked to him the round after he lost and I couldn't remember what it was. I apologize But yeah, great games. Um, it was really it's really fun to see stuff like that in in lists And and it is the kind of fun a two live a two list format allows for I don't see it as a flawed David Campbell I see it as an absolute win. That's an absolute success, right? Like that's that's great He he had he had an interesting angle. He's shooting there. There's certainly plenty of answers to it So it was you know, it just meant that the bar got raised real high Um And plus he's running gets with that kind of a thing, you know, he didn't it's it's fine He wasn't this is an old squig her it gets her down in the reasonable space now. They've they've been properly interested Okay, I'm gonna be fed about a guy who run that me me of a list that's a man after my own heart absolutely We're well known For hating spam on this show And skew lists, but I do love at the same time a meme list. I can't help myself And uh, that's a meme And you know, there it is Okay So let's talk about our games I would do a little bit a little bit of discussion about our games before we well to get into this I thought we'd actually talk about our lists first and then just at a high level talk about the games we had sound fair I don't want to go too deep because I don't think people care that much about our games But we'll we'll talk about them quickly All right, laron you're up first buddy. So here is your I've got your your Uh, your pretenders list up on the screen. So take us through this list. What was your goal with building it? How did you expect to play it like that kind of thing? And then how did it actually work out in the game? What gave you challenges, you know, what what where did you find strengths? Where'd you find challenges? So with my list, it's basically I usually put glills in the center Um, basically just push them up if it looks like they're uh, I was a warlord battalion So I was able to see usually wherever they put all their stuff That if I saw them going heavy on one side, that's basically where gludos went But usually it was in the middle and he just his job is just to get in the middle and say yarn He kind of sucks now um from there, um My goal always in every game was to get to 12 the privately as quickly as possible And that's where the slick blades came into hand They move 20 inches when you make them run the army Basically where in pretenders has infinity CP It's the best way to put it is it's really just infinity command points. Yes The fact that they still make you track a number is almost the insult. It's like, look, I just got all of these Yeah, and um, and usually in most most of my games. I was able to get to 12 right away I played a lovely game with my buddy AJ Uh, he the poor man brought fours of zinch and I was like, oh, I got to like 22 Pretty quickly because the contort managed to get in there. It was pretty he told me I was more oppressive than so blight And he had played so blight to previous And I was like you insult me But for the most part it was I don't really get to their heroes to be honest with my shooting. It's usually just making sure all their toys are dead Um, which usually panned out. Um Yeah, it was basically that was it. I honestly will say I had pretty favorable matchups I lost my first round was against cool boys. And that was a pretty close game Very back and forth very back and forth and but after that it was Pretty smooth, but I'm happy that I get to run slip blades. I've been wanting to run them for like three years Oh, yeah, they're they're great They're amazing. Um, but yeah, basically Send in the slicks get to the privately once you get to 12 let the The control that tear people up and my list you can get her to run for With her big her big swing and run three But the small and she just does a lot of damage once all He was in two I wouldn't even say if the stars aligned. I was pretty It was pretty easy for me to get her the twos and twos run three I thought you had a four on one of the to win.  So you had cruel boys. What was game two? Game two was zinch. Uh, the cybers was zinch game three was uh, sons of bm A buddy walker. You can't dodge me for some reason. We always play each other at big events. Uh, Game four was my buddy yancy for corn. He should have won that game and My game five was uh, victor who was my first time playing amazing player amazing player playing, um give me my first game with, um Karen and overlords. Well, for at least this season I've only played against them like twice and Maybe three times three times three times and first time this went to a new book out. So it was That game was bonkers too Nice Nice All right, very good. Uh, I miss it. Ron. Did you get that one? Did you win that one against kao? Yes, but I shouldn't know So what what was the loss? Which one was the loss? Uh, we'll guess austin I played austin that arm forces day earlier this year. He was playing cruel boys Gotcha, okay that game was super close that one Uh, I think if it goes two more rounds, it's probably my game, but we ran out of time Gotcha Gotcha They're they're pretty good right now, huh? Like I I think they cruel boys have good fundamentals now. I've been telling them for months.  He's a very good player Very nice Okay, did you find anything particularly like in in the the armies that you faced?  What did you find like, okay, you had the right tools to handle? Uh, so the most challenge was honestly victor playing a much heavier shooting army than mine My list does have more melee than shooting But victor's list was ko he that man was bringing 30 thunders It was and his army was beautiful and uh, he went first and I did not think I was going to survive that game Uh, but the best odds were looking out for me Uh and And helped me bring that one in. Um from there I don't I think the matches I played it was it was only shooting that really gave me a threat. Um when it came to A melee army. I felt like if they were a heavy melee army, I played against corn and um, I felt that I wasn't too afraid even though they were all in on the melee and um But yeah, mainly just shooting just shooting was the only thing I felt like I wasn't ready for A lot of people were taken with no amari at being there I felt like a lot of people took self improving spells So I didn't really have to worry too much about, uh, damage spells come in That makes sense makes sense That's not a lot of shooting out there right now. So yeah, that's helping you out as well Were you given first turn most games because obviously your high drops Let's see my first game against austin he He took I think he took first Yeah, he took first And then my second game against aj he took first my game against walker walker gave me first My game against yancy Yancy took first and my game against victor he took first So I think I went second and every one of my Yes, when I when I look at slanesh like one thought is if you have the Capacity to meaningfully punch them in the face before they do that to you that could be a decent game plan To or yeah, that was my plan.  Oh, yeah, if they yeah, they try Yeah Yeah, you have you have gluto what what is the bubble holy within 12 holy within holy Not even holy within just within 12 Just within 12 So that gives you the minus one to hit bubble Which makes it trickier so because I've been thinking that well you do that before they get up their minus one to hit Right if you hit them before they get the minus one hit up, but that's where glutos really comes into play So comes into play and then you bunker up and if they charge you Typically they're charging you right into the center to try to kill my boost barbs because I will put them on in front and uh, and they Usually like I said a lot of shooting being able to use uh multiples of the same command is good So, yeah Weird Yeah, we're crazy But yeah, but yeah, most people try alpha if they if they can Roll well enough to actually punch up and then I can see myself being in danger Uh, but there's what so that's there's a ton of I won't say a ton of mind games But the moment you offer them a six Their heads like melt, you know every every time and you're like would you like to hit with that?  He was like I was totally say no and I was like I think whoever told you that Made a mistake That's not true Somebody's official policy around here. Always say no. I learned always say no My when you have no mortal wound protection. I was even though I was playing hammers that six up barely counts There are times when you want to go the other way Anyway, I always say no. That's my question. Yeah, actually like unless it's going to mean the direct death of the thing In which case sure give them a few points, but starving them of depravity is the one of the ways to stop the army. Um Here's my question loran How many people took the dice? Did you did you were you consistently able to hand out all six dice over the course of the round? Mostly, yes Like that they took it. Well, no just like to make the offer six times, right? Yeah Oh, yeah, I I typically the only time I don't run out of dice is when I decide not to do it Uh, I if I feel like they're really not having fun I I stopped offering them the dice Uh, because and I also found that uh, I took selfish desires because I really did not want to worry about Uh, my grand strategy this season because it was tough Uh for some some monomies. Um, once I hit 36, probably they just say yes, of course. Yeah, sure Which does become funny then because you like suddenly they'll start ramping you way over 36 And now you can just start summoning ridiculous things and still stay at 36 and it's it's really funny Um, yeah, okay. Well, I I pretty handily gave out Uh each round I was pretty good about I I usually run out. I usually run Okay, uh with the ability to offer it when you only shell when they fail to save there Um, they attack you you attack them What depending on what you're looking I I usually ran Nice, okay. Good. Very cool Uh, I love it. All right, uh, my final question for you LaRon How often did you actually use dreadful visage? Was it coming out most games or like what did what did I didn't cast it. I don't think I I think I casted it Let's see against I casted in my first game I didn't cast it against each sure Uh, I didn't try. I did not cast it against Walker, yeah, I think I only casted in my first game to be honest From there, I just had other spells. I needed to cast sure Would you have rather that 60 points been a triumph? Uh Not typically for the with the lower pain in my list. I usually am already worried on Tuesdays Uh, wherever I went and so I I didn't miss it to be honest Fair enough. Everybody's reference. What's the dreadful visage do LaRon? Uh, it uh, you were on six dice the closest unit within six inches. It sets up 12 It moves eight and then it targets the closest unit you wrote six dice every four up Is a mortal wound and it gives them swing last So I take it for melee armies that I I'm afraid of punching me like if I hit orange balls Or something I can just hit them with that and then most likely not have to worry about it I've used it. Uh, a lot to kill things. I probably shouldn't have Uh, especially guts and glory. Uh, it helped me kill off Kara's eye and That's that's targets Nice. Nice. All right. Very good. Okay. Tyler, you're up, buddy. Let's go Stormcast Eternals astral Templars in the stormkeep We went through your list some version of this pretty close in a in a in a relatively recent show So what I want you to do here is more tell us like would you change? How'd it go? What was your experience running the current lowest ranked army? By win rate in the matter Yeah, boy, did they feel like it. Yeah So the main change was adding the 10 protectors So I was doing the two by five vigilores previously I probably had something else there were there a few tweaks like I don't think I I'm not sure why the far striders and eat the Wings I can't remember. Yeah, man the the last version But the crux of it is the same as what we went through the main pieces the protector is getting changed and sure I mean, yeah, I Trying them out in this current meta You see the good and the bad and the ugly with a unit like that right that moves four inches and where you have games That you are meaningfully relying on hitting a nine plus charge with the reroll Not a not a not a great way to try to win games of warhammer when sure when that's part of your reality So but yeah, it was Very tricky. I think if I were to restart It would go double incantor with acolytes because personally Just as we talked, right? I'm just interested in leaning into anti magic Trying to shut down blizzard trying to shut down mortal wound spells, etc And I was asking too much of my one incantor with this list over the weekend and in the test games So, you know like one game against justin with spider fang laran He finally got blizzard off right he we got into round four and my army crumbled Atm jumping ahead but 18 mortal wounds the protectors He kept rolling fives on the super venom with the big spider general Doing six mortal wounds every five on the fangs fives and sixes 12 mortal wounds to take out the niger conas like 16 17 mortal wounds to take out the vindictors My bodies on the it just like that was a very competitive game And I just like my army got removed in one turn and I got uh, yeah t t came out to play laran laran Just just t t had had had a little appearance short short window appearance I'm probably hitting somebody with that list this weekend to be honest. It's nice. It's yeah Like it's it's got play especially when you're going against armies that have an army that has no mortal Literally no mortal wind protection So, yeah, no one knows what it does and do it. It's so good Yeah, so anyway events. It's a crapcast list I enjoyed my crapcast list. I had a great time Uh, the year of sadism continues. Sure I did I did I had some good events last year had fun And it's all going to hell this year trying to make make some of these lists work So, yeah, what do you what do you want from me? You want me to go through my games? What were your five? Who are your five opponents like what would you play? Okay, so yeah, I played justin with spider fang And then second game was cammy. She was awesome. Do you know cammy? Run Do you meet her? She was running the meat fist All right, let's cammy. She's uh hurts like her dad was playing 40k. We were I checked in with her each round. She's adorable Yeah, she's gotta be joining us this year for uh adepticon last year.  Yeah, the great mom. Yeah Six four ups in a row. It's a nuke. I think the the vindict. Man, my vindictors had a rough weekends Yeah, I appreciate the nuke of the vindictors off the table. So yeah, that was a fun game Round three was Soul Blight So andrew robinson gayway gamers a lot of gayway gamers a lot of questionable gayway gamers players rolling around Over that weekend. Yeah, that was a fun game loran. You're not rocking the new shirt, by the way I like that one, but they're dirty Oh, that's fair. I love this weekend That's a lot last year He had a really cool veer coastless. So not 200 zombies. He had all right first off lady anica Vence, I had no I yeah, apparently she's incredible But she's not good enough to be seen on the table. Isn't it a funny army right now? Yeah He's amazing. She deep strikes. She has a four up ward five But she's got the the great get zero profile not not the get zero profile five attacks three trees minus one two damage she Mentioned she deep strikes. What else does she do? She's got a way. Oh, yeah, she can reduce safe characteristic by one Of heroes monsters, I think Yeah, now I was me Right, so I was me and I zoned her out the whole games. Andrew never really got a great chance to ever do a thing But like I just found that hilarious. I took a look at that war school Like I can't I can't believe I would kill that model like this and he's like 110 points Uh, radical the beast is a beast. He's he got his minus two rent. He does mortal wounds on six You know two mortal wounds Run in charge he gets or not. So when he charges you get a plus one attack that stacks with the vampire lord So now 30 skeletons are like 20 hearth guard berserkers from back in the day They're the greatest anvil and hammer in the game right now He uh, yeah, like four attacks. He had him on whore frost that stacks You can write if they're outnumbering your opponent minus one ran minus three from now they're at minus four rent with 40 40 times At 30 models times four attacks each potentially that was fun. I enjoyed that Uh, yeah amazing army And then uh round four. I played jonathan. Did you play? No, you played at the other zinch one of the other zinch That was there. Yeah play the aj. Yeah. Yeah aj So jonathan. I we had a fun game apart from a certain in the spell which I can mention in a minute in a minute that I Yeah, it had the most salt most tt of the weekends and then game five was The other astral templars Really you came up with stormcast against stormcast. Yeah An astral templars off. Absolutely Besides if I was going to be able to get the real win of the weekend greatest uh crapcast Which I I got it done three two, baby There it is. You didn't have to walk home You didn't have to walk home I've stormcast players correct? I've stormcast three two Two two one two three two three one four We're we're doing good out here Yeah, so uh details of the game. You know, it was I'm a little excited right now. I'm not being very serious with my games. I can get into serious Oh, no, you're fine. This is good. This is what we want No, that's fun. Uh, all right. So so here's my question. I mean same question for you that I had for laron, right? Which is what actually did you find gave you the most challenge over the weekend, right? Like where did you see the I mean obviously getting smashed by mortal wounds? You already mentioned it I think that's clear. That's always been stormcast Achilles heel But there's so much of it floating around and obviously a new blizzard only adds to that But like what what what else did you see that that you know? You felt was like really the the impediment to your to your success Can I say everything? Can I cannot just go with everything? Yeah, sure Oh No, yeah, I mean so Played zinch that he did the rupture. I mean actually didn't it he didn't do a rupture or he ended up Oh, you know what that was One of the maybe this is a second this cast his Magister killed himself which then made the incarnate wild And the incarnate tore through once again my ports and predictors Just having a hell of a time trying to stay alive this weekend These guys spent more time back in azer over the weekend than they did on the table Well, they're a bow line unit, right? They're supposed to die. Yeah, a lot of reforging Oh, man, I long run that hurts. They're they're not in the list tonight Like they're they're supposed to survive and count as 30 models on an objective, buddy That wasn't happening very much. No. Yeah, so Uh, yeah, that was a tough one.  Like, okay Tyler you got to keep a mind Okay, because I know you've got a political mind. Okay So I was in my game five I Was faced with the moment I was facing a triple mall crusher list. This is against austin. All right And You know, he made a choice the same thing happened in my game three I'll actually use the game three story. Hold on. So I was facing a bcr This is actually my loss, right?  Let's do it. Let's go for this big five d6 roll Okay, let's do it And uh And I I I'm going to show you a picture here, Tyler because this was the third time I tried the b smash over the course of the game Okay So I did it the first time And I hit this is all on twos and twos like I was on twos and twos the whole time I was trying the five d6 b smash Right, so I hit I wounded. He made his five up save Okay, fine Next time hit Failed to wound rolled to one Okay Third time I'm I'm over a barrel now, right gotta kill this guy All right I'm I have lost like I'm on the edge of losing two mega gargants and I have not killed an ogre yet Not one ogre has died and I'm down basically two mega gargants. This is a problem. Good math. Yeah, not good math That's not working in my favor I hit I wound he fails to save this was my I don't know if you can see that. This is my five d6 roll.  It was fine And I was like, all right, this game is that's how this is going, baby The high variant strategy doesn't always pay off But you got to go in you got to go all in sometimes sometimes you got to push the chips forward That's what I'm saying. I mean, you're integrity Yeah Yeah, that's so yeah, that's what I should have done against the inch and not I don't know if it would have mattered Yeah, he had we had a burning sigil.   I couldn't see it Oh my god, right. I couldn't see it. That's my excuse If Jeff had his is nicely painted buildings from where I was standing couldn't see the darn thing All I would have needed was a six to dispel it And yeah, so teary-tiler came out to play tt We we we had to get some counseling from some friends after that And yeah, so that A fair sometimes nice It's a rough world out there events Indeed, it's a rough world for stormcast Other people's rules Other people's rules. Yeah Uh, so yeah, that was that the Amazing game game five Against astral templars. Uh, well, I'm talking a lot. We we can move on I have one final question for you Which is how'd your night draconis do because I think that's an unusual build You're using him a bit like old prime time. How did he how did he actually perform over the course of the game? Was he was he was he bringing home the the bacon for you? Yeah, he's he's great. He is Really good at helping with battle tactics. So dragging at destruction If anybody doesn't know storm one of the main reasons stormcast is struggling right now is our battle tactic situation is atrocious Really and hopefully that's going to get some love here in a little bit Maybe maybe in the matter watch article said they were looking at stuff like like like battle tactics or whatever So it's good to hear Yeah, so but yeah, he's he's nice. I mean he can die easily You got to be careful with them. The whole army is based around safe stacking No mortal wind protection. You're just trying to not roll ones You're trying to have the safe stacks in the right place and then score on primary as much as possible hold on for your life with stormkeep Yeah, set up combo damage. Oh, it's very fun. It's very interesting, but there's very very little margin for error But yeah, he was he was definitely in a BP over the weekend. Nice little combinations like Relic to a translocation that then goes into luck stone once per game So that that works beautifully a couple of times to get some amazing charges off. You can do some combo damage with that really really Catch your opponent off guard a little bit. Nice. So Yeah, that was cool. The I did get one to get stole blight. So that was that was the big win of the weekend Yeah, I lost that list Uh crucible. Yeah, he destroyed me God that army is an nightmare right now, but yeah I had seen the units About time we got to like round three when I was starting to recover It was just too late. He was everywhere everywhere I don't know if I killed him I do have some takeaway. Maybe we can get in at the end some We're gonna have some overall thoughts. Yes. We will yeah, we'll do some takeaways. Yes. We're gonna that's what I want That's what I want to sum up with all right. So quick quick tech talk through my lists Some of this is like a little messed up.  It doesn't matter. It's fine. Okay. So I'll keep it simple I had two lists. They were both sons of badminton. One was two megas and seven babies Uh, and the war it was so one was stomp a tribe. So I had an anti infantry list Yeah, okay And then I had an anti this is also supposed to be two drops Like these all got messed up when they when they copied over because I pulled them out of a dumb file format Um, I also didn't have this grand strat because just war scroll builder doesn't have the new grand strats loaded But I took slaughter the sorcery, which was a bad choice and I failed my grand strap on those games Uh, and then I had one list that was anti monster. So smash a tribe and stomp a tribe, right? So this is the anti monster list. The other one's the anti infantry list Which is really smart choosing because when they wrote that book It's like they forgot that things that have more than three wounds, but that aren't monsters exist Sure You have nothing against elite infantry like like say, I don't know Immortus guard or stalkers or whatever Like this the game is overrun right now with those elite models And I just have nothing but I was like well if I face sole blight and have a bunch of zombies Like I can lift units of zombies really fast like three babies going in With plus two damage on all attacks We'll just like do so much damage to to zombies at four damage a piece on their main weapon, right? It's it's wild So Um, they're already a very damaging unit in the army. So like you get one of those in they hit they do impact hits They pile in and stuff three things in the bag.  So that's fine. Well, that was my general concept, right? So a I also had the seas green command trait On the beast smash up, which is the declared at the start of a phase and you get a four up against mortal wounds for that phase This was actually specifically for anti ogres So that if I wanted to put him out there and thought I was going to get charged I could just at the start of the charge phase to clear the four up So that way I could negate a bunch of their mortal wound impact hits So that was the thought at least other stuff like that I mean there's just general uses if I thought there was no way I was going to be able to dispel the blizzard Then I could stop like negate half of a blizzard in a round or you know, whatever you get it Right, when can you when can you decide to pop that start of a phase start of any phase? Gotcha, okay. Yeah. Yeah, like if you don't have I don't know like a primal dyes disparity. Yeah, exactly Right.  I don't know the answer Okay, because I would have thought slaughtered sorcery like if I were playing sons, I would probably start with that too That's that's what I took and then I then I forgot sons don't actually kill anything That was the that was the that was the mistake in my logic Um, yeah, the the grand strategies this season are rough. They're they're are rough because they're you have to like I've been lean towards icy baron Like, uh, can I kill all their bow line? Uh, no, maybe Yeah, that's over overshadow is yeah, kill a wall battle. I keep one of your battle line live I thought icy baron was both like it's like control the center Kill maybe maybe maybe it is Uh, yeah, I can't remember if that's the one it's like kill all of the heroes with artifacts of power And control the center of the battlefields I can maybe that's it. Yeah. Anyway, I stopped picking it at any rate my uh, but like I ended up playing the anti monster list three times and the anti Infragilist twice. So it was pretty pretty evenly split.  I I won that game on a three up Because I used the book battle tactic to smash his terrain piece And I was like, well if I get this then I'll be in the way Then I'll be in the lead and win and I just like walk some giants over to it and roll to die and roll to three And I was like, yay Behold my awesome strategization, right? Uh, my game three was against BCR ogres and I was like, oh I'm gonna be great against this. I have my anti monster list. I'm ready for this I've thought about this. I play this stuff a lot. It did not work out at all at All Yeah, I'll tell let me tell a quick fun story from every game and I'll just do it this way. Okay game one moment There's so many moments of the match where we literally like ran around the table and hugged each other and were High-fiving each other like it was So hunter and I had the most amazing game like we were just we couldn't stop laughing the whole game sun's against sun's Moment of the match There was many of them was uh the uh was the um Was in the Last round in round five. We had five roles at monsters rampages. Okay And we between the two of us, right? And we all we had like two each that we were doing the three up ones to like move the giant or make us fight last or roar We rolled straight ones all of us All ones Okay, we were just like oh our giants are tired. They're all just like too tired for this So that was moment there game two.  Okay Uh game three was against ogres moment of the match totally went to my opponent Who charged my gate breaker mega gargant With a stone horn beast rider not the hero Just the beast riders, you know, I'm talking about just the battle like the two ogres on the back of a dude right and Roll the boxies for the charge So that was the start did a bunch more to wounds and then on the rock hard horns hit All times wounded five times and I failed every save and they did 20 damage And that stone horn beast rider lifted a gate breaker before I even got to act unreal just 35 wounds just Dead And I was like, whoa, that is not what I was expecting like mathematically. I was like, yeah, it's fine. He can hold over there, right? He'll be he'll be good Nope. Nope. Nope Uh Okay, so anyways um, and Game four I played s2d and that was uh That was a really fun match Did have a lot like a lot of endless spells the funniest part of that one was I got to use the Crazy battle tactic where you make a spell go wild you killed the dude because he was playing a bunch of endless spells And so I just purposely didn't like heroic willpower one of the endless spells down Left it on the table and then charged the wizard and killed it with impact hits And it was like yay. I got my battle tactic Uh And then game five dangerous. Yes game five was iron jaws triple maw crusher. That was a lot of fun Uh moment of match there was yes, peter. That was your stone horn, buddy. There it is. Oh, he's watching. Yes, peter. What's up, brother? Uh, it was such a good game I like that dude just blew that that through that guy like he did exist peter Was like peter was the game three I talked about where like I was just like yeah, dude It's your game because he had only stone orange closing in on me And it was just like all I saw was my last mega garket just becoming a geyser of blood Like uh like nightmaron elm street. Just just You know with all the immortal wound impact hits Yeah, boy, they they got there. I killed one ogre the whole game. That was it. He killed my army I killed one ogre. It was not wow. It didn't didn't go in my favor. I was like, uh, this is going to be a great game for me I'm totally ready for it. Nope Nope, uh, and then Uh, the the mega triple maw Mega boss game was was really really fun. Uh moment of match there was that Gordrack came in got body slammed into the middle of all three megas and then That's and then that was the end of him That was the end of of gordrack.  Uh, overall, oh like I guess I should talk about this won't go to other lists like What did I find hard everything doing battle tactics? That was really hard Uh, I did not usually complete battle to all my battle tactics. Uh, what did I find easy standing on points? turns out All right, so Make sense. It's pretty straightforward playing suns. What did I find easy getting five rounds in? There you go It's easy Great smooth sailing low stress weekend play suns of batman A couple other fun lists. I thought we'd call out here. Um, so you want to talk about this one? Yeah, this is austin's list the orc war plans. Which one of you wants to take this one? Yeah, go ahead moron The crew boys. Yeah. Yes Yeah Yeah rough So he's got Let me I'll talk to the illicit real quick just for everybody. So I'll read it real fast here We had gobsprack. We got two swamp college shamans. We got a killer boss We got the snatcher boss on sledge raker 20 gut rippers 20 gut rippers 10 slitters and then six bolt boys and six Bolt boys.  Yeah, take us through. What was this like to play against man? Uh, it's scary because uh, every time he shoots you're hoping he just doesn't grow Fives or sixes, which I think I don't know for me. It's not that exciting for it, but I'm sure but he does it He runs those fives and sixes Uh, there's a lot of threats in this list as you you want to kill the snatcher boy Boss to get the damage down as soon as you can If you can get to the man's fuel boat boys That cuts a lot of damage away, but he protects them super well That's hard to hard to get to him right because you've got 40 gut rippers and 10 hop rods and And he has a great time facing them. So if you charge any side of them, uh, you're getting unleashed held on And there's likely he'll have you just Getting smoked on a charge in your own turn, which is oh at least the most feels bad thing He has gut rippers in the, um, wizards finding, uh The things that in case you did go in with a monster that was a wizard. He can get a lot of attacks in Um, let's see from there. Um, he tried casting blizzards a few times Uh, but yeah, the list is pretty straightforward.  Oh, yes, you can Yeah, um, and uh, but yeah, he he did pretty good Playing the game playing the mission Um, but for the most part it was the shooting the shooting that really just you just gotta watch out for If you can get to those, uh, boat boys, you can you'll see the army starts to fall apart Right nice. Nice. Yeah, it displays very very classic war hammer And gobsprack, uh, he's he's a good pick right now He may have to stop magic with the primal dice to help you get over and to get that extra damage through Yeah, when you when he does stop you it's it's really clutch really good tech Nice. Yeah, I thought gobsprack was an amazing pick right now in the current season So I was glad I'm glad to I really wanted to see this one just because I think it's a great list Yeah, so absolutely All right, cool, uh, do you have you played jake? This was a seraphon coalesce coattles claw list either you get to play against this one. No, right I would play jake almost I don't play as much for that. That's one of my besties right there. Uh, all right That's my buddy. He had a root. That's his agridons uh, his Big plan is to charge you with the he uses the Consoles a vengeful defender that get basically just hit you hard as soon as possible Um, like a Seraphon's drowned men version kind of instead of instead of bugs. It's agridons. Yeah, yeah, but I wouldn't tell him that he's not Sorry, sorry, sorry jake from there, he's um He pretty consistently gets off uh, merciless blizzard with his caster and so that's what he's trying to do He's trying to get you stuck Hit you with the ether wind pendulum and then just keep bashing you and uh, he loves those agridon lances loves them um So yeah, pretty that that's his plan. He he's gonna out for you. He wants the game over quick Nice nice Maybe we need to go back and reconsider the agridon lancers. That's that's pretty awesome. I'm glad to see him get He is also the most consistent drawer.   That's a heck of a record right there. Uh, all right Uh, very nice, uh, let's see then oops And then lastly, I just wanted to share this one with everybody. This was jason matley from nash con I thought this was another one worth uh worth sharing because this is that magikinnum nurgle that took best uh, overall and just Unbelievably cool list lord of afflictions, of course is the general with overpowering stench and the shield of growth Uh, pretty standard build out then the glotkin In this particular list, he has rancid visitations And the other one he has gift of disease. That was his only variance in the list He's got the poxbringer with whore frost then four blight lords 10 plague bearers 10 plague bearers two beast Nurgle and three nurglings clocking in all in a little little bat redge for exactly 2000 points Uh, the man is choosing who's uh, you know getting into that one drop just a really tight exact list Right like hitting it on the screws coming in on the one drop coming in on the 2k Uh, constantly having that that blitzkrieg or whatever it's called effect. What's that's actually blight blight krieg blight krieg That's what it's called blight krieg. Yep. Yep To do these really great counter charges Like, you know making sure that he was always ready to set stuff up and and and be there and Getting his units into the move using it to reposition like the lord of afflictions or stuff like that Obviously the lord of afflictions. This has a really powerful match up against obr Because obr relies on their command ability so much To do everything and here's this lord of afflictions that they have a tough time removing Just floating around shutting all of that off Right because of because they don't they don't necessarily have a great way that I can think of obr to actually get to the lord of afflictions If you keep them protected right now to actually be able to yeah to deal with them. So that's that's really cool Yep, and then they try to get at him and glock and counter charges. Whatever tried to get at him, right? So it's like Yeah, it's it's actually a really and and that bubble for his Uh for his blight creek is like really hard to play around because of because of what it Uh because of the way it it it works with sort of the 12 inch Around it and what can charge and what can declare and all this sort of stuff. So yeah As it was really interesting to watch watch Jason play just an absolute great player great bliss Like and and just absolutely fantastic play using a using a piece I don't think most people saw coming right this guy came out We saw the rules everybody said that's neat, but he's too expensive and then never bothered to really go too much deeper And here he shows up and and really making it work Well, it's been interesting man because this is the second 5.0 that we have seen with glock and list Raymond Lane we had seen right a few weeks ago very different list though He was leaning into rottmeier creed And maybe some plague drones. Um, I can't remember but yeah, uh, this list is beautiful He's got seven different war skulls. So he's got the minimum Highlander qualification right there seven different war skulls At least more like a minimum variety pack list. So I love that The yeah, we'll have to get them on sometime.  It's it's a it's a it's a good battle tactic list. It's a good Uh main objective list, right? So because he can because of the the blightkrieg and letting him reposition onto objectives, right? Like, oh, I didn't quite have enough people. Oh wait, hold on. I'll counter charge you now I'm back in control like now. I'm you know good on this objective or whatever, right? So it's just it's got a lot of play a lot of unexpected play Yeah, but still yeah, I mean he had to have played it very obviously very very tight because having played nergal I mean There's I just on paper. There's a lot of other armies in this game right now That have can put out stronger list. I would say And then when I just look at this list, right? Sure. Like yeah, I get it What you can do with a glutton But he doesn't necessarily do a lot of damage. I've never played him But what I can recall looking at his worst quality. I don't necessarily think he's going to do a lot of damage He's like minus two rend as best he's doing. He's a ton of points Two by plague bears can go down really quickly. Thankfully they got cheaper. It's just yeah It doesn't scream off the page if here's obviously doesn't ground here's a five-oh list Yeah, I would think it'd be hard to go for one with a list like this on average for for most players So yeah, just phenomenal. I mean, I don't know what his matchups were but the phenomenally impressive regardless. Yep. Yeah All right So let's uh now is where that we're going to flip over. Let's talk the current meta This is where I want to talk about some some like Summary stuff, right? Like what we think from our experiences Like what what do we see from from what we saw what we played What's our read on the current sort of world the current meta we're living in? Where are the challenges? What's what's coming to the top? What do you think is what are some hidden gems? Maybe stuff like that, right? uh, so I and and I'll open the floor up to anyone here if you want to start we can just bounce off each other here back and forth So by the way as we transition over here hit like if you haven't already and subscribe and all those fun things We were certainly appreciated It's it's it's nice and helps other people find the show and I really appreciate it takes like two seconds clicky clicky It's fun. Okay so Uh Here's my first thought And I'll I'll I'll bounce this one off of both of you. You don't have to go on a long rant here um Boy obr and spg are probably too strong That's that seems like my first thought right Dude checks out Yeah, uh, so I I think then I was thinking about this earlier after reading mike's goon hammer article. I don't know if you guys have seen that but folks But to go take a peek. I mean it's absurd How many obr and soul blight with the eight events that we just had over the weekend and obviously this has been going on for multiple weeks now so I can't I was just I was just going back to salinash and flesheter courts When I can feel as the last time we were in this period now I think we are probably it's probably a better period than when we were in there. Maybe Still not quite as pronounced I don't know though That is I suspect the meta The win rates the ecosystem is healthier. Sure. Then it was in 2019. That's probably hard to say But but yeah, that's what I went back to in terms of thinking about like two armies just I mean not showing up in the win rates as truly dominating, you know 70 percent But my god does it show up in the five os and the four ones and when you actually play Lots of different armies and you play those two armies I would play anything any day of the week Then then some of the lists that they can put out there Let me ask you this question because the wrong you mentioned playing soul blight. You don't like playing against it, right? Is soul blight and obr? Yeah, I agree with you. They're not putting up those insane win rates of that 2019 dark period, right? But here but here's my question Is it worse to play against than some of those were at the time? Like those were alpha strikey sort of hit you real hard and lift you lists, right? But there were counters to them. They just weren't very prevalent in the meta like high armor and high shooting Were both would have been strong counters to both those things. They just really didn't exist at the time Right. Those were actually armies with huge Achilles heels Did Is it actually fun to play against obr and soul blight often like the zombie spam list that go on from the table You know stuff like that like virkos zombie spam like is it a worse experience? As far as the actual play experience goes regardless of the win rate. I don't know leron. What's your what's your thought? You know, I'm sure you played these lists plenty of times I I would say I don't think it's that bad to play against them. I don't feel like It's more annoying than anything else But I don't feel like I'm having a bad play experience against either one Um, I'd rather play obr than soul blight Um, but neither one of them bothered me particularly like I don't feel like the battle is unwinnable What soul blight for me is usually do I have enough time in the game to beat them? And then with obr I I'm a minority. I don't I haven't I played against their list, but I don't see what the big problem is Are you running?  They've lost a few models um The contorio epitome with the what is it the crown of uh dark secrets can neuter their stalkers or the emulators If they do get too close so I so the slush book has a lot of answers to those problems right Yeah, you need to get down in the mud with me here, buddy I need to give you some storm cast on the table He gets you a great and clean one We're at the highlander nergal list. Just yeah, I don't know how to play storm cast without nemen. So That's true Mr. Dracotheon guard, yeah Uh So, yeah, I I mean I I've been I played those armies with my my crap cast and I've got to say I I didn't enjoy it And yeah, it's uh, it's a nightmare.  I had to play as a gauge, right because uh, whether it's Ego or whatever is going on There is that part of I've been addicted to this game for forever I play thousands of games if I can't figure it out with You know with something And I start to get a little worried But they're there there's there's a margin there And but yeah Playing against obr has just been a nightmare Like I'm not playing the game I'm hoping to play them on a mission where they have to play on Objectives around the battlefields. I'm trying to Stretch them out spread them apart. You can't compete straight up with them Solve light. Yeah has its own particular challenges. They're more reasonable in my mind actually Then obr in some ways. I think So we did that obr show Brendan you and I generally said that obr is a points issue not a Rules issue or certainly more Oriented around the idea that they're a points issue. I don't think that anymore If you continue to increase that points on the army, they're not going to have an army that they put on the table That army has rules issues for the most part right now. I think With that said mortis guard are absurdly cheap way too cheap what they do so yeah Yeah, my issue with obr has been that I've been telling people when I do look at the arm Like I just don't like that you don't have you have so much command points, which I'm a hypocrite They'll do Everything you want to do like fiver board wherever is good And if they and if night hunt was able to use their fiver board As many times as they wanted they would be a stronger be a much stronger army as well And then they can get rend whenever they need rend and just have being able to have rend anywhere Is amazing and I feel that if they had locked some of those commands to war scrolls It would have been It would have been easier for people to digest and take and get along with but since it's just widespread army do whatever It's not hard to deal with Like if the end mors guard were able to say hey, I'm gonna have a fiver board when I can't remember if they have a built-in board But if stalkers have Get extra rend then I'd be more okay with the faction They almost touched on it with more tech guard when they're like these are the guys who get really good You spend a cp. I think they become ethereal Uh, and I'm like that's fine. That's a war scroll specific Command if they had just done that more I would have been more okay with it Okay, all right. I don't want to just drill it on these two forces. I mean, you know I'm I'm I'm sure given the meta watch report that those will probably see something change Right, it wouldn't be that out of the box to think something's going to change there So And it's mainly the recursion we haven't mentioned the word recursion yet at least in my opinion it starts with that Right, we brought that up on the show 100 and Matt rose said this as much At least that was my interpretation of what he said on the latest meta watch video Is that they fell to sufficiently account for essentially recursion writ large in the points For sole blight and I can remember be intimated OBR as well But if that it it starts with that with these armies in general, I would say so But yeah, other than that I think most the other like corn I think when they fix murderers mother murder Lust, uh, they brought that in line. Thank you. Uh, they brought that in line. I think corn's fine now um, they fixes the Was it the squigs? Yeah, people a million miles away. I'm like, okay So I when I play and I look at other armies, I don't see as much of an issue anymore with the other things Except for the two that OBR and so blight there are the only things I felt they haven't fixed yet Do we have any thoughts about hidden gems within the list? Like other armies that have got some builds that maybe are hidden gems We haven't we haven't we haven't seen as much of like like the glockin showing up in the nergal list or I'll mention another one here and I because I do think there is something to this Which is Which is jacob's basically like all shooting scaven Okay, with like doom wheels and stuff like that where he's he's you know Overcharged in their shots and just like, you know running around the board blowing into people with things One of the interesting things about that That sort of build is it can put out quite a lot of mortal wounds at range Can do a huge amount of damage in general at range right And we talked about house in some of the Uh in some of the lists that we're seeing Shooting might have a big advantage like you mentioned laron that like a heavy shooting list is one of the things that gave you the most trouble Right And so, you know that list can both it's very mobile It has a lot It has a lot of like off-board deployment So it can't be shot like a lot of its toys can't be shot until it wants to show up and shoot at you Right It's got some sneaky different sort of Ways to to get in pretty close inside the the 12 inch. I can't shoot heroes bubble right so like lots of little little stuff like that and I I think there might be something to that, you know at at many points in time in scaven's history like the sort of You know all shooting or heavy shooting scaven has been a strat, right? And I wonder if that's not a potential road to explore I don't know if like exactly what that list would be. Maybe it's not actually do meals. Maybe it is Maybe it's you know some storm fiends in there. Maybe it's a lot of gutter runners in there. Maybe it's uh You know, maybe like a warp lightning cannon or something is the right answer Like I don't know. I don't know what the right answer is But but I wonder if leaning pretty heavy into that in some regard It doesn't make a list that's actually quite competitive in the current meta Just because of the tricks and stuff that you've got going on So yeah, especially with skating we've seen a guy out in Arkansas he came to guts and glory. I can't remember his name Yeah, we I've mentioned him on the show man a couple of times king and graves who won bug eater gt got a golden ticket Mentioned him to Vince. He was running three doomwills. I believe with thank will with the skateboard before the fact Uh, he had a nice balance of shooting bodies Warbringer I think with thank will it could be wrong on the warbringer But I believe he had that classic combination and the doomwills were doing a ton of work Yeah in his list as well. So yeah, great choice by by berry Yeah, absolutely Uh, duggy fresh said so the s2d player had a host the ever chosen list. I will jump back up real quick. Yeah, I'll tell you Let's see. So yes, Daniel Patterson had a the best cast player at gateway had a host of the ever chosen I don't I don't know what was in that list I don't know if any of you saw his list or whatever. Yeah, I think I can tell you most of it So, uh, first off, why is bellicor able to go in a host of the ever chosen list? Seems a little weird, but but well, but apparently that's legal Uh bellicor, he did have a nice sexy pick and eternus who I really like Eternus is one of those kind of distraction carn effects pieces You can just throw them in immediately right with bellicor getting back on a seven in your turn on two dice He can actually hit decently. He's pretty tanky really interesting piece chaos sork lord I can't remember at the build out. I think those were the three heroes ten shows and six baron guard Don't know how he equipped out the baron guard he had Five ten nights five nights Yeah, and some other stuff, but that was the kind of the core bellicor eternus sork lord ten shows and six baron guard and some other stuff Yeah, okay interesting Oh, and I didn't even mention it but glacius has a joke. He said ten play claw catapults But no like gizales play claw catapults like you joke, but the play claw catapult at 100 actually became pretty interesting to me Uh, you know that thing is is It's actually kind of an interesting weapon now, especially in a world full of zombies and stuff like that So I don't know. Uh, maybe maybe is the answer Uh, that was some tech we just told my buddy gavin to look into was play claw play claws He's like how many should I have I was like Two three, but I'm a bad person Two three of everything Yeah, and you can get a lot of shooting outside like the artillery It's funny because the the artillery cap almost never matters ever in this game in any army except scaven Because you're like gizales are artillery and your Lightning cannons artillery and so is your play claw catapults They actually like so you actually do have to pay attention to that silly limit that exists for For apparently one army and one army alone Um But yeah, that's that's that's interesting And so yeah, is there anything else like that? Any other anybody in the mid-place that you think has some good potential So we've talked a little bit about it, but lumineff Obviously lumineff has been oriented for a while around sentinels and teclas Right now sentinels I don't think are very interesting at all when I first played that book I was doing my usual variety pack two by ten sentinels and they were terrible or they they felt pretty terrible They were the least interesting part of the list Because it was 18 shots sure and this was years ago He's like, okay. Well, this isn't interesting Uh, it's only when you you hit a critical master one of those critical mass units. All right, so I think The community has generally not seen as far as I can tell lumineff as a actual melee army or potentially as a melee army as again a variety mixed arms melee force Starting to see some lists that are showing that with some interesting heroes Dawn writers are very efficient right now in this current meta With a number of armies with one two one models They can be pretty tanky if you get to five up boards in place with them But just in general they they you look at them. So some friends of mine vents We're gonna I'm gonna I've got something to show you at some point soon who are doing this project doing this project It's very exciting. It's really cool. We might have a show around it And they've been going through analysis of a lot of different units and dawn writers look amazing Blade lords I think are quite fascinating as well And yeah for for similar reasons blade lords have a good spread. They're good against elite They can be good against elite with their their perfect strike can be good against hordes So, yeah, um, a lot of no authority light of a therian There are a lot of units in that book quite a few units in that book that I think score Really well when you actually started to get into the efficacy of them Just that we haven't seen enough players catching up to that Shout out to jared brown. This guy I mentioned before he has a great game on battle shot gaming One of the youtube channel. He went 5.0 over the weekend at salt lake open I believe with a list like this nice very interesting list. Yeah, nice Yeah, I'm all for it seeing that kind of different spread and these other units come into play Yeah, loran you're building into luminous. So is this is the thing you're you're looking at as well there with that kind of of that kind of units Yeah, that is exactly what I was going to my list currently two downriders 15 blade lords A Severif to get in close to kill the heroes when you get Because not that you can't shoot them outside 12. He can go right up in there blast and then get out um I still have two years of sitting those in my list, but I think a world without techless Luminous is pretty solid And I'm just glad to start seeing some of these lists where people don't feel like they need to take him and Proving that they can perform well Nice. Nice. All right. Good stuff. Anyone else we want to mention there in the in the midfield Oh, gosh Yeah, I've I've been looking on the app right now looking and uh this Fleshier courts, I'm curious to see what their new book's going to be Yeah, I think a big question marks right now or what happens with cities what happens with flesh eaters, right? Like I think we're going to see a lot of pretty heavy or pretty heavy decent shooting cities We're going to see some wild stuff with uh with sizzle wizard, you know, is it like that? So so we'll see Yeah, I'm getting a little scared or worried of what I'm hearing about this city's book But I've barely looked at it yet and uh, obviously somebody's got in a da up So we will not be talking about it yet, but I will see One thing that just comes to mind because I've been looking at it as a potential I'm going to try to make flying monkey next month and I haven't seen much legion of the first prince So obviously as a johnny legion of the first prince is the most intriguing to me of slaves of darkness There's got to be some decent legion legion of the first prince places out there I know a number of folks were underwhelmed right by the heyday of where they were what they could do Summoning, you know putting ten pinks on the board every every turn It's it's toned down considerably, but I do think it's compelling in some of the tricks plays combinations that you can put on Theridans really want to see some people do well with Theridans We haven't seen much of that lorry hug it wild over in the uk Yeah, I think lorry had nine and like he was a little he wasn't a slaves list I don't think it was like a beast of chaos list or zinch list maybe one of the two It wasn't a slaves list. Yeah, I think he had six or nine Uh, yeah, he had a I think a mermen didn't make them battle line to be able to double brain force But I mean they're cheap right 160 Five up save with the great axes, but you buff them. Well, that's 320 points for 30 wounds uh, the storm slaves right now to me are storm cast if they had uh Good battle tactics and 20 more wins, which is probably what storm cast should have Sure, let's have to where it's actually it. Yeah, like I'm looking at 160 wounds events at these lists with legion of the first prince Highlander style, you know fear makes chaos warriors furies theridans tinshows and bellicor Eternus, etc. Yeah Yeah, okay, but yeah, I mean the other thing is maybe slanesh still haven't seen like actual melee slanesh lists. It's just been all It's got it. There's got to be something there I think I think that's just a points move away right now The book is too tilted where the melee stuff is like too expensive that especially the support piece you need And the shooting is too efficient like that's the that's the problem right now You know, if if those points move around, I think melee slanesh could absolutely have some gas in the tank. I agree Yeah, murmur. This is a pretty solid once you decide to commit to them. They're super tanky Uh, I think if they it's safety in a world where it will happen where bliss barbs go up another like 10 more points I think you can start seeing a few more melee things if they bring fiends down I'd run fiends in a heartbeat if they brought them down I agree It's an unit where it feels like if they came down 10 points 20 points like okay, that's yeah, we could we could have something there that could be a unit that you see on the table Yeah, I agree. I agree 180 180 right now Yes, 190. I think okay too expensive expensive And then they they and they'd be great. They mess with magic. They're minus one to hit minus one on the wound Uh, they can kill elite things Bring them down just a little bit Uh, well, we're only like barely two hours into the show. This is terrible.  I've got I've got like six more topics here. I want to talk about Chest clocks and end of game. I did have a thing. I wanted to hit you guys on well I've got I've got one more slide here, Tyler. We've got one more and then I can't take control of the show Go for it. You take control. I'm gonna wait. I'm gonna all right. It is your anniversary Oh, well, thanks. Thanks. Uh, let's talk about the magic season That's what I want. I want to kind of my my fight. I don't know what's just kind of end talking about this Although Tyler, I'm sure you're gonna have some additional small topics for us at the end Uh, but yeah, I want to talk about the magic season. So I mean, this is the this is the long and short of it. How do people feel the magic season's going? Right? That's that's the idea of this thing. We have seen a lot of strong anti-magic Place and play. I mean we looked at the gateway. You saw all those obr no myriad lists, right? Anti-magic is strong Uh, but yet a lot of people are also playing magic Right?  It's like, yeah, you be immune to magic all you want I still want to cast my spell and buff myself, right? So You know, you've got corn obviously doing some pretty put up some pretty decent results on the board around there as well Right? Um, but how are we doing visa v other seasons? You know, the monster season became the anti monster season the horde season became the you never see horde season, right? I has this been more successful in your estimation so far, right? I think laron, where are you at? I think uh, I think magic is up. I I don't think I think most magic users are getting the spells they want Uh, I don't think the anti-magic people have enough magic to stop all this anti magic to stop all the spells I I do think it's a magic season I I think I I don't think I've seen more spells get off than I ever did in in this season Uh, I think more spells go off more than they get denied I usually save my primal dice to get rid of endless spells before I choose to get rid of a spell Unless they don't have it So I I feel like it's a very magical season. Okay, child. Where are you living? It's uh, and both for me because I mean as you indicated the yeah, both are true, which is fascinating I'm loving this season so far On the whole too. I think this is the most probably the most successful of this format As we start a third edition with monster and Cataline etc. This has been I think for me the most successful. I mean we're early, but but yeah, I think it'll have pretty good sustain We've got eight playable missions. I'll say I think seven very solid. There's there's one you can quibble around or a couple you could quibble around so that's a pretty good place to be in and Yeah, it's I love the mini game that this primal dice situation has created in the hands of you know, I was playing against You know this fellow laran one of the gitz players at the event It wasn't I should feel bad about forgetting his name. It wasn't he came down at our Uh one dayer at metagames And he had uh six rugged shrug us. Anyway, awesome guy really thought like David David David I was so impressed by by how he sequenced his spell casting He had that down right where he was like a poker player just baiting me to unbind early just baiting baiting just really really on top of his Resource management and his mini game. So that was awesome to see the he's one of our old war machine players We got him win their games apparently imploded. So yeah, that's I heard that's been a thing. Yeah. Anyway, so tldr Enjoying it nice Yeah, it's funny for me I've I've tried to lean into both sides of this equation just to test which way I want more obviously I took a completely no magic army there To to nash con and I will say, uh, I I hate magic in aos. I think it's the weakest part of the whole game Like I just yeah, it's so this is not the season for me although You know what I'll say is I'm happy that there's actually kind It feels like we're one of the reasons with this season is closer to correct Is because it feels like there's almost the right amount of anti magic floating around in the meta versus versus magic Like there's just enough to keep it kind of in check. I think obr no myriad needs to get Tone down, but that's because obr needs to be toned down enough and that's like no myriad is what it is Right. It's it's a badly written rule There's there's many other ways that that could have been anti magic that would have been more interactive and interesting but I like I will say even though I personally have almost no interest in the current season Like I just don't I don't like this. I don't like the spells. I don't like the primal magic dice I don't like any of this stuff. I'll be completely frank, right? I will say that I think People in general Are enjoying it more and having fun with this season I do agree with you Laron like originally I had said I thought this was gonna end up in just a lot of things being unbound more often But it seems to me that like people are getting more spells off Whether or not it's like are they getting off the clutch spell they need? Maybe not. Maybe that's the one getting stopped or something like that Right, but just like raw number of spells getting cast. I think yeah, that's that is up in the current season. Absolutely and uh, I think You know blizzard for whatever it is. I'm sure there's some people who don't like it I think it's actually a pretty funny spell. I don't mind a huge 46 mortal wound bomb thing Like it's it's fine. It's not as well if it is what it is, right? And obviously whore frost is really interesting because it does It does actually work It can often have the biggest effect on the weakest units Uh, so that's that's interesting. I'm like you mentioned the sort of skeleton interaction But but units like that, right oftentimes will get pretty explosive under that that that uh Under that spell So on the whole it seems like people are enjoying it more and having fun with it And I think that makes me happy that we finally seem to like kind of strike the balance like I think we we we we We're close. I'm not saying we're perfect. Like it's not Thanos yet, right? But it's but it's pretty close And so to me that's pretty good. The question is will it continue, right? Or will one like will other armies that come into the meta tip it One way or another will other changes that come into the meta tip it one way or another I don't know. It could happen, right? It's not it. It's not a static thing Just because we have this season for a year doesn't mean it actually stays the same for the whole year, right? We're going to get books theoretically is going to be more dawnbringer stuff or whatever it's called, right? Like those things So, um, you know, there there is going to be changes introduced and I'll be interested to see like How that plays out, I guess frankly is is what it comes down to for me But for right now, I'd say I think it's a pretty successful season despite my my dislike I think it's too heavy. I think it's over complicated, but I think I think for what I'm seeing is most people still liking it Uh, so that's that's good. It's a good thing. So, yeah, I think my community is the most excited about this season than they've been Since 3.0 started so I can dig it. I'm really I'm like, this is this is the only season where I've actually paid attention to the missions And have a mission. That's my favorite. I usually go. Okay. Yes, sure. We'll play that one But this one like, okay memory resources No, I'm gonna like I'll back you on that one completely. I actually think this is my like regardless of what I think of the magic stuff I think this is the strongest crop of battle plans we've had in quite a while. I like a lot of these battle plans I think they're really fun. They're really interesting There's a lot with play in there. Um, you know, our our review is I think there's about eight That are pretty tournament ready and I stand behind that number Um, I think there are four that aren't and that's fine. That's just the nature of the beast Um, I wish though. I wish we didn't have that But I but those but those eight I actually think a lot of them are like sevens or eights. They're pretty strong Playing them more as I have I've actually come to like them a lot more Um getting into some of them founds of rocks like that kind of stuff I've come to really like that kind of that kind of I like that one a lot I sort of like the weird fiddly math and then this wounds and that and like it's it's It causes a lot of like memory Traps where people forget stuff You know, but like but it's a good mission structure wise Right So, yeah, I think it's an important mission because Yeah, some of some of these missions actually one thing I was saying in our review You may have had a similar sentiment is that we had thought we were getting a higher average number of objectives But when you actually look at these missions, you have dwindling resources in limited resources in nexus collapse You have power flux. That's actually it's looks like a four objective mission It plays as a two objective mission all a sequel and so yeah, that's where I really like problems of frost It's just a pure six objective mission. I agree Nexus collapse is the one that for me is on the bubble nowadays. Is that is that where you were at? So I want to talk about nexus collapse for just a moment So nexus collapse for for those who don't remember it's the six objective mission Where the person who's lower on points gets to vary two objectives, right and from about around two on And if you're tied you roll off and I talked to like so we played that it was one of the five games Okay, and so my response was in in that game where I played it Was at the top of the round at the top of round one. I went I want to choose my battle tactic Pass decline. I choose nothing and then I then I got on three objectives okay In hopes that the opponent would basically hold one hold two They couldn't get more and they'd score their battle tactic and they'd go to four And then I would be able to deny that I just knocked two of their objectives out, right? Like I'll take a one-point hit in round one To basically knock two of their objectives out and then put myself especially from suns where I can just kind of like camp right and make him come over to me and It didn't work out that way The opponent actually ended up accidentally failing the battle tactic and then they were at two points And it was like, oh no the turns of table, right? um But but nonetheless I talked to Like another really good player after the game After the round I should say and they said what they did and what their opponent did was completely get off the objectives Nobody touched an objective for the first two rounds They battle tactic and then pass the turn two points pass the turn two points pass the turn And then they rolled and it was just rolling the dice to see who was going to get lucky Right and and that was it because they were they like We'll both get our guaranteed battle tactic since that contributes to overall scoring And then that's it. Which is the smarter way to do it.  They were they were smarter than me, right? and uh, and just like roll the dice right and then like Just like hold the two don't touch an objective and Uh, and and that was the first two rounds of the game Right where no interaction Just battle tactic over until somebody got enough up to pull enough objectives to like Go Right and and and sees And so that's I agree with you. It's it's on the bubble for me on that one Just because of that really weird Like what I what I just you and I talked about this a little I bet if you go look at like table 40 at an event or whatever And table two at an event where they're both playing nexus collapse. They are playing that mission completely differently Like completely differently Right my guess is that is like the most Weirdly skill testing mission and once everybody figures that out that like this is the natural way to play this once that Once that sort of information creeps its way down Right and filters down. I think that's going to become a much less interesting mission Yeah, that's yeah, you know that that's my worry as well. So But yeah, uh, I was going to say something else. I'm forgetting now. Oh one piece of this season that I Hold on. Are we officially doing some other questions from you Tyler? Is that what it is? I'm going to try and save this Has he and I actually played the tower mission? Nope. Nope. I have not played it Have you? I haven't looked at it I think we all just literally threw that in the ash bit of history and pretended like it doesn't exist Yeah, all right. Hold on Tyler. So what what's your are you are you moving to your thing? Not yet. I was just going to comment The topic of this ghb And where we were it's my I thought that the Nostal endorments were the piece that was off. That was the initial and I still think they're a little off Yeah, that is that is one piece of the book Yeah, that just doesn't have enough gas there for what it needs what it wants to be doing And I was wrong if that's been your experience with the nolstone endorments I mean, they're nice to haves with like they're nice to have I haven't played them too much because I don't play any armies that doesn't take magic Uh, but when I do see them, I don't feel I don't ever feel like they're impactful enough to to really Make them worth it. Like I would rather have a wizard than one of those Right, so maybe we're thinking about it the wrong way. Maybe the they were not necessarily designed I mean, who knows but maybe they were not necessarily designed To incentivize you to consider not taking wizards when you have an army that has the option to take wizards That they were maybe more designed for those armies that are like corn But then how many our armies are there that don't do not have the option Like essentially every army has the option to take a wizard. So yeah I feel like they were you were definitely they were trying to incentivize you To not take with not take a wizard and they're not strong enough to do that I agree. Yeah. Yeah, I tried to feel an operate and I'm just like, yeah, I feel like they definitely Like hey, look at these cool things if they were If they were like if they like made if they did something to make like you more stronger against unbinding If they offered me like pluses to unbind then they would be more like able to if one of them was even Um, no, I stopped that spell. I think we see it Right, right. Okay. All right now Tyler. Let's go on to your thing here. All right, let's do it Uh, I I do Tyler's grab bag. That's what I'm going to title this in the show notes I mean, that's every show man I do want to continue hammering home that I think we do still have some armies With a number of war scrolls that are too efficiently pointed And go beyond the obvious now I've taken some grief from my corn player friends For pointing at blades of corn as to me as an ongoing example of this reality Vince I've talked with you about this this idea that the baseline Has shifted with point values now They did take a meaningful step forward with the last battle scroll Dropping like storm cast across the board essentially, right Maybe they need to do a little bit more They're making some strides, but I'm still feeling that with some of these armies that there's a Disconnect, there's a gap in the the prior baseline and the current baseline with a number of these war scroll point values I'm being high level and vague, but if obviously eventually for me to talk about this before Yeah, no, I think it's fine to be a little high level. I agree. I mean, we still got some dialing in to do Yeah, I agree So so that's one. Yeah, that that still needs some work With particularly with some of these I think gets is a good example of where they have properly What they have gotten sufficiently close to dialing that in with the sufficient number of war scrolls from where we were with the original Book and where we are now, right? Yeah, but that I think that still needs to happen with a few of these others Uh Game resolution this has been an ongoing sticky issue in the community That as far as I can tell there's not consensus on how to do this Like if you look at gareth's Generic pack I last night checked it says essentially Try to work out if your game does not come to a natural conclusion try to work out Together what that conclusion is if you cannot do that get a judge the judge will be final Just call will be final now There's a lot of stickiness and messiness in trying to in that as a policy so LaRon, where are you? With this at the moment. I'm trying to figure this out for vault wars is what I'm getting at here Because we've had it. We had issues at vault We had a couple of games last year Vault wars are because we did not have a really clear end of game resolution It created some some grief for players. I'll say some some friction between players so I'm a big on If if time is up and you are you I really don't believe you should start now When there's like 10 minutes left in right and then wherever you are at that point is where the game should stop Hopefully with both of you have taken a turn if both haven't taken a turn because You know who wants to lose the other person should definitely get to play out their turn But wherever points are at that point is where I feel things should get locked in I personally don't like talking out rounds because I feel like it leads to Well, I will have done this and then well, I will have done this if you done that And then at that point now you're just like well, would you like I will kill the guy? Maybe you didn't because you're eliminating the dice from the game And I feel that a hard stop is where you you just stop and like the time's up. You're done And if you can't do that, then you probably should get more practice with your army Yeah, man, so there needs to be right so chess clocks would address this And there I would say there there's growing pickup in the community is well again. That's being vague I'm seeing a notable number of competitive players around the world who are saying chess clocks is the answer In a os we've had some conversation with the community keeps having conversation around and I know rob has gotten there Number of people in the uk. I've seen get there. I'm there now personally Like I'd be we're not going to do that at vault wars because we would have needed that in the pack originally There's not enough time for people to prep for it We might look at instituting that with guts and glory next year because that is in my mind at least a very clear answer Right where it holds you account on both ends. Uh, loran if I ever slow play you I will concede the game I'll concede the game because I'm the fault But if my opponent slow plays me they didn't mean to but that's what happened And they hurt my ability to win the game And there's not a clear resolution and we're not going to right and we're not going to talk it out And I've lost the game because I didn't have time to play my army and I wasn't the problem. That's an issue Best clocks address that so I'm trying to work through this Vence do you have any I resonate a lot with what you just said loran on on that But yeah, vence any thoughts on this? No, I I think I agree with loran like to me the the talk it out is when you Sort of reach a point. It's it's just totally obvious And you know like one person is basically smashed off the table and you run out of time, right? And it's like, okay, sure you score your last two battle tactics You still have 1300 points your army on the table. I have a single hero sure you get your last two battle tactics Like that's what happens right like talking that kind of stuff out and awarding the last couple battle tactics Like what would you have done? Oh, I still had this and this available. I could still surround a destroyer I could still intimidate the invaders, you know, whatever.  I saved the two easy ones for last like great. Okay, cool score your last two. We can talk that through like I don't mind that Right. Like of course, that's logical You know, um But if it's a tight game and it's coming I completely agree with loran like don't start a new round when you get 10 minutes left Like I hate when I see people do that. I just want to be like no, we're we're done now We got to the bottom of three. There's 10 minutes left until round time Like we cannot resolve a round of age of sigma in 10 minutes if we could have we wouldn't be in this position right and You know, it's like when when it's diced down it's diced down uh, you know, so magic has Basically this five round clock that starts once time is called so Effectively like at the end of a magic game if you hit the end of a round Then it goes that becomes that player's turn becomes turn zero and you put a dice on the table And then when you pass the turn When you ship it that's one The dice goes to five. So you're you're the person playing your zero one two three four five So they get last right and that's it Whatever the whatever the how it's worked out at that point done game over right now Obviously, those those turns are a lot faster. All right, so you can do that kind of thing but I wouldn't mind something like More formal like that being sort of in an event pack or an idea of like the society should resolve it But until that's there the answer is dice down is dice down. What's the score? That's the winner. Yeah, that's it All right, like you shouldn't be talking through a close game.  That's the game man. You're done Like cool. Yeah. No, I I resonate to that For transparency, this came up in my game. What? I don't have to say that we I had a situation where I wasn't the issue As I said, I would conced