The most important thing for a young person, there are many business ideas that they can come up with. One of them could be property. I'll say to them, do your own research. Learn as much as possible. Try to find out if the market is not overpopulated. You will think there are beds that people still need, but once you get in there you will find no, the market is full already. Good evening and welcome back to the First Time Homebuyer Show. As you heard, tonight we're talking to a superfan who's got extensive information from our private property podcast as well as doing his own and he's taken that leap of faith and invested in student accommodation. That's Sammy Moringa. I'm sure you've seen him before on the screens on our other podcast and tonight I finally get to sit down and chat and talk to him about his story into property. But before that, of course you know we've got amazing content coming to your screen live every weekday this week. We've got Zaman Tugwakumal with the private property podcast. That's live at 7 p.m. every Monday to Friday evening. And of course if you're interested in agriculture and farming, we've got him Bali on your screens every Tuesday and Thursday at 8 p.m. And without further ado, Chad Vavuros travels in Zanzi, looks at mansions, townhouses, apartments all over Johannesburg and that's every Monday and Friday evening at 8 p.m. Without further ado, I come to your screens every Wednesday night at 8 p.m. and tonight Sammy Moringa is with us absolutely excited for the show. Let's dive into it. Good evening, Sammy. How are you? Good and you? Good. Thank you so much, Sammy. Before we even jump into your property journey, you of course you watch all the shows and I'm absolutely excited. I think we are now sitting on 300. Yeah on Zama show almost 350 actually. Yes, you are. And first time home buyers growing slowly. Hopefully we reach 100 soon. So I like that you're always interacting with our shows and I'm sure you've learned a lot. But I'd like to end off the show with that. Some of the lessons you've learned with our private property podcast. Before that, Sammy, tell us a little bit about you. You're always on the shows, you played the game show the other a few weeks ago, but we've never actually known who Sammy is. Okay, Sammy, it's a young man born in Mokopane, my wheeler ring. My mom passed away around 1999, December. Then we buried her. I moved to my aunt in Marble Hall. Then, you know, due to some challenges I wanted to achieve because of I've always seen my mom used to do good in business and everything. Then I decided I need to come to Pretoria. No, I started as a taxi driver first. I didn't like to you, but I was driving like my own Texas. From there, then I met my beautiful wife. After meeting her, then that's why she inspired me to achieve more with what she has achieved, understanding her background. Then we started working together with many things. We bought a first property in Sushanguvi, but we sold it now. We sold it because when we moved to Philippine, after selling the property, then, you know, the up and downs, the work, not finding work, you know, sometimes growing up is not a little bit easy. Trying to get one, two, three going. But with the property of Philippine, when we first saw it, because she's the one that sold the property, then I thought it was an achievement for ourselves to be in Philippine, an extra town, seven minutes, eight minutes drive, it's a university next to it. I was even thinking about my daughters, they will just walk to school and stuff like that. Not thinking that one day we'll talk property, but here we are today. Here we are today. I like that. And you know, one thing I always promote and talk about, and one thing I learn that's a common thread in a lot of the stories from some of my guests is the support. And you spoke so proudly about your wife being there, supporting you through this journey, educating you as well. You always need that person who's going to push you to achieve. And sometimes in life, bad things need to happen in order for us to realize, no, I now need to achieve something different for my own family. Yes, you are right there.  We as young people of this country were allowed to make mistakes, but then I was young. Even though I don't want to reveal my age now, I was young, then we were allowed to make mistakes, but don't make mistakes that will cost you. Make mistakes that will educate you. We know we want to have fun, we want to go out, we want to drive to Cape Town, to heaven, to do whatever, to one to three. Make sure you experience such, because that's how life is. Then make mistakes, but make mistakes that you will be learning from. Don't just go out there, because while you are growing up, you are seeing people that they made their own mistakes, and some they can recover from that. Then try to avoid such as an individual. And one thing I've also learned, especially in this industry, is when you make a mistake, try not to make the same mistake. That, you know, that's kind of the point, because you need to learn from them. And it's so important. You need to learn from them. Yes, there's a lot that we're still going to talk about. I know, I think, yeah. Yeah, let's, we'll get there. I want to find out. I know that you said, you know, you got into property, Filip Nal, and all of those things happened, but what else informed your decision to take that leap of faith into property? You know, I was driving from home. I think I went to visit my aunt. Then I was driving from home, then I saw another property in Tsusham It's not far also from the University of Technology. Then what I did, I got interested in, then we drove, you know, agents, called the agent we met. When we got there, there were some stories, you know, some stories for me to be able to not view the property. Then she just made a one phone call and they found another property that I said, okay, let's go and view it. I think it was, it was like giving three minutes drive from there. We went to see it. Immediately when we got there, I was impressed with the property then, but I had no idea then about properties. I had no idea about properties then, but I thought I can make it with the little money that I was trying to save. Because the most important thing before you get into certain things, the money that you are saving for renovation and stuff like that, it will assist you more. But if you buy new developments, then it's an advantage for you. It's an advantage for you then, yeah, you'll make it easier. I like how you say the most important thing is to save. And you know, we deal with a lot of people around us currently who are struggling to save. What would you say, besides saving, another important point or lifestyle change that we need to take on to become a property investor, what else would you say we need to think about on this property journey? I think to think about, you know, with property, what I've learned is you need to start practicing it, like following people that are into property, looking for mentors. I think you once interviewed Mr. Witness Mdaga. Yes, it's one of the people that I look up to in the lockdown eras. You remember 18 months, 19 months ago, he was every day on Facebook trying to educate people, telling people that there is something that you can achieve. Because he saw that people were not busy with one to three. Then he could get attention of some of us to say it's something that we called you can invest into property. And it went very good for many of us around the country. Because I think he went from maybe 2000 followers to like 36,000 followers in less than six months. Because people were taking advice from him. He ended up writing a book. That book, it's on his Facebook page, you can follow him. You'll get so much information about what we learned from there. Because I wanted to find out, you keep saying when you started your property journey that you didn't know enough yet. And I wanted to find out what were your sources? How did you teach yourself how to be a better property investor, how to be a smart. You know, I teached myself very hard. Because what happened, we decided to go to a movie. We went to move from Philip Nell. Then we started looking around, looking for a house. We got one. After getting one, then we had to start with the renovations immediately. Because you know, the processes of the house, even though it was a little bit longer, but we know it was going to happen. The renovations, I think I shared with you the pictures for my renovations, how they went through, you know, looking for a contractor to come and do that. With no experiences. I thought I was having enough budget, 30,000 or 35,000. But overnight, that money within a week or two it was all gone. Because the escalation cost, because it's something that we are not experienced in. And I think normally you guys going to speak on the shows that get a professional, that they can, even if they are not going to give you a quotation, that is 100%, but it will go to 90, 95 or they can even add 20% more on to the quotation so that you don't overspend. But yeah, that's the less, the hard lesson that I learned. Because you just keep on going to the hardware stores and buying stuff. But yeah, because of the determination on wanting to achieve that and the little bit that I saved, I think that's where now the assistant came from for me to achieve the end goal. Exactly. And you know, I know that you said you were close to a lot of universities, especially. So I think that that's a little bit, for me, I think it's a good student accommodation is a path I've always wanted to take myself. Why did you as Sammy choose student accommodation particularly? You know, while I was busy renovating, I was thinking, of course, it's my area. The area is an advantage for waiting people and students. The way I do is designed, is designed even if the students are not there, I can always take on waking people. It's either it's a sharing, we've got single rooms where we know that even if somebody's working can come and look for room for a place to stay for a rental, because it's like a multi legs, they can come in, take a room. But for now, I prefer only students because I don't want to have mixed people in one place. I'm trying that. And even the pandemic has not been great to me yet. But I know vaccination is on the card. I know by maybe 2022, 2023 things would be better. Yeah, I was actually about my next question was how did the pandemic affect, you know, your property journey? It's just been tough, you know, students, they are not around, they are learning online and stuff like that. But hopefully with the little that we have, because we do have those that are they want to be around, they didn't want to go home. Yes, at least they are assisting us to to cover for certain things, the running cost of the property on its own, because it's a cost on its own that you guys, you don't know about. There's a lot of things that are happening behind the scenes. Exactly.  But because of I have somebody who's assisting me, but are lucky, it's like a caretaker for the proper for the accommodation, then things are easy for me. Even if I'm not there, I cannot be there for like a month. It's always going to be around to sort out all the issues. You have someone you trust that's at your property to take care of if you're not there. Exactly. Besides that, I think it was going to be a hassle. Because people don't want to come and view the place. Of course. How will they get in if whenever you are held up into some some other stuff. Exactly. I know that you a strong believer in inspiring the youth and helping the youth, you know, achieve their goals. My biggest question, especially because we have a lot of young people who watch the show is, would you encourage other young people to also take that leap of faith to invest in student accommodation, particularly student? Yes. But you know, the most important thing for a young person to come up with, there are many business ideas that they can come up with. One of them could be property. I would say to them, do your own research. That's what is important. Learn as much as possible. So that try to find out if the market is not overpopulated. Right. Because you will think there are enough, you will think there are beds that people still need. But once you get in there, you will find no, the market is full already. You know, universities, you need to register with NERSFAS, you need to do this, you need to do this. And it's not easy to go through that. Like myself, I'm running them privately so, individually so, charging them, paying them monthly, but it's not an easy exercise also.  And because of they are there, you can't say no to them. You need to be, you need to understand the situations of people. It's not like you're working with a company or something like that. Exactly. You need to trust that they will pay on the 17th. And so that they won't come back and find them gone. And you know, sometimes as a property investor, you need to be patient. You need to have goals. And you need to just, you won't achieve things overnight. Right. That one is not possible. You need to be patient. Patience is, and do, and I'm still learning a lot from this, because I think also understanding the tenants, because the good one will leave you. There will come a different tenant where you'll always, now needs to be in the property all the time.  Exactly. How you want things to happen in your property. Yeah. You spoke a lot about how the pandemic, you know, could have affected you. And obviously no one expected this pandemic, especially for the property market. And you spoke about a lot of lessons that you've learned and things that you went through. But what was your most important lesson that you learned when investing in student accommodation? You know, you'll think students will want, you'll do the building, the building will be ready. Yeah. Then the student will come for you in the place. That's why now you start here in certain concepts how the student want the place to be. They will ask you, where's the microwave? Where is the fridge? Where is the, they want to come empty handed. They want to come with the luggage. They want to find everything there in the property. They don't want you to just give them an empty space or another empty space, or they need space. They just need everything ready, curtains, everything. You know, then for me to go out there for shopping for that now, for something that I wasn't ready for. You know, something that I wasn't even thinking. Because now I was thinking I'll just get tenants that they will buy things themselves. No. And it's extra money that you are not even, it's not even budgeted for.  Then you will need to meet the standard and also the price range needs to be almost the same. Because people are, and you start seeing, now here I'm not making the money that I was thinking, because the money will always be there on the spreadsheet, but you won't see it here in the bank. That's the problem. You'll do your budget plan. You'll do what you think you're going to receive, but then it actually doesn't always turn out that way. Yes, because of also the pandemic on its own. It's a different story. But yeah, students are fun working with and you are sure their parents are going to pay. It's not like they're not going to pay because they are sending them to school. It's not like maybe somebody's working. If you don't have money, you don't have money. Of course. But the parents, when they are home, back home, they will fight for their kids to pay them. And shelter is very important. And we always talk about this, you know, and what mother or father is going to send their child out to go study and not make sure that you have shelter. So that's also very important. So you're right. So I also wanted to find out, so you spoke about the biggest lessons learned maybe before you even started your journey. I'm sure there were some mistakes. A lot of mistakes. You know what I did. I think the biggest mistake that I did was when we started with some of renovations, because we had a double garage that we turned into single rooms. Then we got a contractor where somebody just came and looked and looked. You don't know whether somebody's a professional or they'll be, but they will guarantee you that they have done this before. Two minutes down the line, not even half of the shop is not done. The man is done. The material that is bought is not enough. You know, then I've learned to like get work with professionals into construction and be involved, be involved as much as possible. I know it's not easy for them, for some people that are working, but try to be involved as much as possible so that you can understand where is your money going. Because at the end of the day, it's all about the funds. Because you'll have an empty shell that is not complete, because they will break it down to say we are starting to do construction. And I was about to ask what your biggest lesson learned from those mistakes were, and it's of course to have this powerful team and a trustworthy team. Yes, there was one guy that we worked because of the pandemic. We had time. There was one friend of mine that I called in to come and assist me. We worked together throughout some of the things. I had to start doing them myself. Paintings is good with her welding. I called him in. We started doing Butler doors and everything with him. He said no, certain things. He said no, Sam, you don't need to hire somebody. I'll do this. I'll do this. And because of seeing him on what he wanted to help me achieve, because he saw what other people did to me, then it was easy for me now to fall for everything. We worked day and night. On Monday to Sunday, we were busy painting. We were doing this. And at the end product, I'm telling you, it was a wonderful experience. And the results were perfect. Doesn't it get difficult though? Because not every property journey, let's say my plan is to get into student accommodation. And then I do get into a situation where I get the wrong contractor or someone comes and they take my money and they run. And then you were lucky enough to be in a position where you could go to your property yourself, go paint it, go do what you needed to do, go everything. But now what if I'm in a position where I'm working a nine to five Monday to Friday? Yeah, that's why now, that's why you need to get professional advice for me. Get a professional, but it doesn't mean also the professional do make mistakes and they run away, but get somebody who has been there done that before. And maybe even see the work that they've done before. References. Nowadays, we've got websites. We've got Facebook pages and look for, let's say maybe want to do an accommodation, go and look for somebody who did that before. Right. I think the experience will always make a difference into you achieving your goals. Earlier, you spoke about having a budget plan and having the breakdown and writing down maybe your ROI, what you think you're going to get. And it doesn't always turn out that way. No, not at all. Really? Not at all. Let's say maybe for an equipment sake, you have 70,000 budgeted for the job. I think for me, with the experience that I've always got, have a 20,000 that is sitting extra to come after the 70,000 is finished, because you won't finish the job without that. And with the accommodation, don't forget, the budget it will be for the construction. You still need to have a budget for buying the furniture after. And let me tell you something, it's not a, furniture is not cheap. Not at all. But I found out, I used a way that it assisted me a lot in searching for like new secondhand stuff. In the pandemic, people were selling things so that they could add other things going. Then I went in, I bought those kind of stuff, chairs that have been sold online, desks that were sold, were being sold online, and fridges that were still in good conditions. I got them. Then you see now, that's why my costs were less at the end. That's the strategy that I used. And it worked for me. Sam, you now sound like you know exactly what students want. You've been in this long enough to understand. Yeah, I think I know what they want. I think what my goal one day is to maybe have a place where we can accommodate, if not 50 bits, 100 bits. I think I can run that. That's amazing. I think I can run that. But yeah, I think that's why now, you know, we haven't talked about the rates in Texas. I think those are the most important thing. You need to try to use green energy. Try to put in solar gizzards, because the electricity, it's been a little bit expensive. Of course. And students are always online. You know, we always need to be online as students. So you're right, electricity costs will be Yes, electricity costs is more. Don't forget, after this one, take a shower in the morning, they all want to take a shower in the evening. And a gizzard is the thing that is going to chow the most. Chow the most of the electricity in the house. Then if you use your solar gizzards and stuff like that, then you know your costs are going to, you know, you'll have maybe 40% less of the amount of the electricity that you had to use in your properties. Water, you can't run away from it. But speak to them that if you take your shower, don't sit there, like, because there are certain things that I'm paying for. Because sometimes you'll see a bill come in 5000 a month, only water. Then you speak to your people, because even at home, you tell them, even at home, if a bill like this can come, your parents are going to not be happy with you. We see. But it's also difficult to also responsibility. It's like telling them to be responsible citizens. Because we don't, we know South Africa is scared. You become their father away from home, you know what I mean? When you have kids, if you've got about nine students, you become their father. You've got nine kids that you need to run. But even if they are working people, they will end up being your kids, even if they are older than you.  But the experience on its own, it's something that is out of this world I'm telling you. I wanted to ask you a question, you know, about if I, or to people watching at home, if they are ready to take that leap of faith into student accommodation. So the solid returns that you get, so the return on investment, let's talk about that, Sam. Okay. The returns, to be honest, on the spreadsheet are there. But because of the pandemic now, things are not looking very good. But I believe it's something that somebody can work around. Somebody can, I think with the pandemic gave us enough time to prepare ourselves for when the schools start going back to normal or at a full-time basis. I think we're going to be ready for them to say the accommodation is there, everything is there.  Imagine if you are charging one, for an example, 900 and you've got around 14 students in your accommodation, because the rooms are big and stuff like that. Some they are going for sharing, some they don't like sharing, then we charge them for single. But their returns will always be there. I wouldn't lie to you. It's better than, and you know, one thing I like, even if one student can move, you know, by month end can move out. You have another. No, not exactly that. You still have, let's say maybe you had 10 students, you'll have nine, that will pay you. Oh, I see what you mean. It's not like when you have a single house, where it is rented by a single person. Yeah, they leave you there. Then if they leave you, yeah. For three months, you'll struggle. For three months, let's say maybe you're spending an installment for like four, five thousand. Imagine you are paying four, five thousand. Plus the thing that people don't budget for, they raise in Texas. And the reason Texas now at this rate, you saw how electricity went up around 16%. What is up now, you see, and everything went up through the municipalities. Now we are looking at around maybe raise in Texas around 900, then electricity only, you know, you see now you need to cover those costs. That's very true. This needs to be involved. Don't forget again, you don't have a tenant. It needs to come from you. It's very important to save whatever money that you are getting. It's not like the money you need to just chow it. Exactly. But like you're saying, if you still have the nine students left, you're able to, you know, let's say your rates in Texas or whatever is five thousand and with the nine students you have left, you might only be taking a 500 or a thousand out of your own pocket because of that one you lost. And I think, yeah, you answered my question. I feel like student accommodation is definitely not an easier way to go into property. But for me, I feel like it's a little safe here. Also, don't forget, there will be maybe one or two months in a year that you won't have students. Of course. It's like a 10 months business. Then, but now those two months that it gives you time also to come and do some little bit of renovations here and there. You see where what is needed for you to sort out. Then you'll see everything to be ready for you when they come. When they come back. They will find, and you know, paints are not expensive, man. I think even if you can buy five liters of paint, you can just fix the mistakes that there are students before they left. They have made, you see. And be willing to do things yourself so that you can also save costs. And of people that don't have time, then, but okay, then, then have somebody who you trust. And I think one thing I've learned is, especially, you know, coming from student accommodation myself, living in student accommodation, not owning, not yet. You know, coming from that journey myself, living in communes, living in, not necessarily, living off campus was what I did, right? I didn't live at res. So I was living in private, you know, I had landlords like yourself. And I think what's so important, yes, we might only have a small budget of, we can only pay 3000 a month, but we're so picky. You know, so if I do see a scratch on the wall, if I do see something, I'm going to be like, okay, I know that it's within my budget, but I am sure I can find something better.  It really is. And one of my questions, I don't know, maybe if you can answer this is, what do, what would you say are like top locations for student accommodation? Of course, being close to a university is prime, is the number one factor. The prime locations for me, I think Jobeck, I think the inner city, it's next door, Vets. Yes. I think, yeah, people can look into that. Town, Pretoria, there are a lot of private universities, private colleges, T-Vet colleges for government, there's universities, University of Technology, there's Headfield, Techies, they call it Techies, University of Pretoria, there's UNISA, I think Haudeng, Tawani, and Johannesburg. Top locations, yeah. Top locations. But I had, they could learn this, there's plans to build a university. I think people didn't start doing research to know where is the university going to be. Before the prices of the properties next to the university start skyrocketing. That's very true. So now we need to take that into consideration. We need to take that. Do you research before and check? Yes, I think also like, why is this place Guiani? I think the college of Guiani, Tawani is taking it over, hopefully by 2023. Okay. By 2023, 2024, the university will start taking in students and stuff like that. People need to start looking at that to see if maybe they cannot take advantage of it now, buy land, start building slowly on your own pace. But look at, will the university have enough accommodation and stuff like that, so that it's a business opportunity. Because we know people now are losing jobs left, right and center. We need to advise each other on what is the next, where is the next payment going to come from. Exactly. So I like what you said about doing your research. And especially a lot of people when they come on to the show, they talk about before you, and we know location is important. Before you even invest in a property, do your research on the entire location as well, right? I wanted to find out, very important. How important do you think it is for the youth to be knowledgeable or to invest in generational wealth and financial freedom? I think it's very important. The thing is at a certain age, you feel you have grown certain things in your life. And with the investment that you started earlier, they will come in hand in your life. Because it will find you, let's say maybe you've got 20,000, 30,000 that is saved. Maybe you want a property somewhere. And that property that you wanted needs renovation. You see, it will come in hand. You need to invest. You need also to not forget to invest in yourself while you are still young. Don't say maybe after finishing your university degree or continue studying so that you could equip yourself more.  Yes, buy a GTI. It's a must. It's where you are growing, you need that luxury so that you can also experience certain things. But when you pay the GTI, 8,000, make sure that there is a thousand rent or 500 rent that you are saving every month. That one day is going to look after you. You will see the need to have that money one day. And many people, they don't understand the need. Because for now, yes, it's all fun, fun, fun, all night clubs and everything. But after a certain time, you'll be surprised when some of your friends are saying, knock on the door, I have 250,000 in the bank and when you look at it, you can only show us something that is five years old, a car that has lost value. And just before we even started shooting, you spoke about how important it is to save in your 20s. And did you start saving in your 20s? What happened? Because I lost my mum at an early age. I think certain stages, I just jumped in to be a parent. Of course. To look after my siblings, you see. Then on its own, with the little bit that our parents left us, it was easy for some other stuff to happen in our lives. Right. Then the hardest thing was leaving home to come into Pretoria, to starting a different journey. That journey, when it started, it started like I was playing on it. Because I said to my aunt, I'm going to Pretoria now. I want to see if I can not make something out of myself. And I got here. It wasn't an easy right, to be honest. It wasn't an easy right. But with determination, dreams, decision making is also important.  You will find peace jobs here and there. But when you do that, make sure that the little money that we're having, save it so that you can have goals, have friends. I wanted to study one, two, three. Then go to school. I remember there were some things that I wanted to study. I wanted to do this. I wanted to do this. And at the end of the day, those things, they played an important role to be where I am today. Exactly. Because you meet friends that also have goals. That's where now you start thinking, well, people are thinking this big. Then why not me? Exactly. Then that's where now. I think I've grown so much so that, yeah, come, let's make business. That's the kind of friends that I want. And I like that you said determination. It's so important. I feel like determination is what we need. And I'm sure there are people in their 20s now who we're still in a phase where, unfortunately, we still can't save. Black tax is a thing for us. Raising our family because we might not, we've lost the parental figure in the home. And this is the life of some people watching the show currently. And what's so important is I love that you said and that you were honest, that maybe you didn't start saving immediately.  And I think that we need to try our utmost best, too. Even if it's just a 500-rand a month or whatever the case maybe is. And I know before the show, we spoke about investing in other things, which we won't talk about. But I mean, invest in other things. In fact, it's got to just, just, even in the bank, just open a 32 days notice, put money there. Something. Just save something. Because, you know, with all these properties that we are talking about, people, they know, because if for those that have been listening to the shows, there are extra costs that we need to pay lawyers this March. You need to pay this, you need to do this before everything, before the property is in your name, you know. And that's a lot of money also. That is not budget head for. Exactly. You can't just say, you want this property. Then after some time they said, you see an invoice coming from a lawyer, 29,000, that is, needs to be paid for a property. And don't forget, you are still going to pay the property for the next 20 years. Exactly. And we already lost 29,000. Exactly. You need to be ready for these things. You need to be ready for these things.  So that it's, in a long run, the 4,000 plus 7% interest rate by 20 years. And don't forget, it's 12 months by 20 years. It's a lot. It's a lot. Well, that 4,000, it can go up to maybe 250,000. You see, that's why now it's very important to save so that the costs that you can cut, even paying the deposit, it will assist you. And with the 250,000, you can go buy another property. Hey, don't say that. There are properties in a city like now that are going around 250,000. You all must take advantage of those properties. 100%. They must cost that property if you can look at what the interest rate is now. You will end up paying around 1,500 installment. It's crazy. It's nothing.  Very true. Very true. Even more sometimes. Thank you so much, Semi. Just before we close off, I know that we call this the Superfan Edition, where we bring you on to our show and we're very excited. I want to find out from you, just to close off the show, three most important lessons that you've learned from watching all our podcasts and how you are encouraging people around you to be who you are or to do what you're doing. Private property have learned a lot. There's one thing that I've always seen on private property websites, houses, beautiful houses. Those houses are inspiring. Sometimes you don't need to drive to these locations to go and see these houses.  People are rich out there. Look at those prices of those houses. And you see a 15 million rent house. You ask yourself, is this person going to buy it on installment or buy it cash? You see, it's a motivation. It's what I've just learned. Don't limit yourself. Limitless. Be a limitless person. So that this thing can happen to me also one day. And you'll be shocked when it happens to you. When you get a phone call from the bank to say you have approved you, you'll be like, hi, but is this... You'll even want to pinch yourself to say, is it real me? That's the first lesson. Be limitless. Nothing's going to stop you. Number two, what I've learned is you need to work around with people. You need to take advices. You can't make decisions alone. There are people who know better than you. Of course. And my friend is Google. People, they don't know that my friend is Google. And there are the third most important thing that I learned from private property. Things can just happen for you. You know, we used smartphones. People, they don't know that a smartphone is the most powerful tool that was ever given to us. Yeah. All this knowledge. I don't know who came up with that, but I think that person, I think I must just meet the person who came up with the smartphone. Because everything is right there. Everything is right there. We need to take advantage of it. If it wasn't a smartphone, we didn't have a show, like, so I must show. We didn't have a show like your show. Yeah. We didn't have anything that is depending to us like now. Information now can just circulate overnight. Yeah. We need to take advantage of that as people living in a country like this. Exactly.  But like, even on, you know, the shows, you can ask these questions. Hmm. Speaking to professionals, you know. You are now classified a professional semi in student accommodation. Because you are here. Imagine. You are here. I can just go in. Not imagine. You are here.  You're growing in this industry. So you know, you've given so many other people advice. And soon as a smartphone, I never believed in a smartphone before I wanted to know. I never believed in a buying smartphone that has so much memories. I just thought, even if it's 18 gigs, it's enough. But now the way they, just think what you call them, the updates, this, this, this, this YouTube channel, this what, you need to download this. You need, you need to have some, a phone that is going to assist you. So that you can be able to take, look the app, Facebook. Today, I'm next to you talking to you now. So just what? A simple thing, a smartphone. Then that's the lesson learned from me, to say, guys, let's take advantage of these things that are being given to us for free. And use it. And use it. Grow ourselves. To grow ourselves. Our business is whatever the case may be. If I need an app for my business, I'll go for it, I'm tipping. Yeah. Thank you so much, Sammy.  I want to close off with my one last question to you is, does Sammy's journey stop at student accommodation? I mean, Sammy's looking at 50 million rent houses. So it can't. It shows. It's not that investing. Yeah. I'm trying to learn how to invest. As I just said, people need to take advantage of what is happening now with the smartphones that we are having. Let's learn how to invest. Let's put money where it's supposed to be. I know people, they will say, hi, now I'll go and buy a bag.  Do something with your money that one day, you know, is going to come in hand for you. Even if I can pass away, then it was a will week, I think the past week, national will week, where you can just get in anyway and draft a will for free. With those investments that you made, make sure that people, generations after you can survive through that. That's what is happening. People that have started businesses that are still on 100 years later, you will see somebody will say, KFC, it's 100 years old. Meaning that business, it has just been there forever. And generations of generations and generations, it's a legacy for the family of Kentucky fry. Chicken. You see now, that's what we need to live. And it's a will. Nothing will ever change. Even if now the business is being franchised, but there are realities that are being paid for, for the kids. Exactly. They don't even need to go to school. They don't. But the education we know is the powerful tool. Exactly. So that also they can improve the business and the technologies that are happening now. The first industrial revolution. Let's take advantage of that. Thank you so much, Sammy, for coming out and joining us on the show. Thank you. And I think the biggest lesson that I'd like to leave us with this evening is definitely determination.   We'll see you guys again next week, Wednesday, live at 8 p.m. on Facebook, Instagram and YouTube. Take care.


in San Francisco, California. It's the day two of the CUBE, SiliconANGLE's exclusive coverage of the O'Reilly Media Fluent Conference. I'm John Furrier, the founder of SiliconANGLE. I'm joined by Jeff Frick, my co-host today. And our next guest is Eric Elliott, JavaScript author of programming JavaScript applications. We're also works at Adobe Systems. Welcome to the CUBE. Thanks. Glad to be here. So, obviously, we had just said, Roger McGullis on his site a couple of years ago. He said, oh, JavaScript's gonna be really, really important. Good call. I mean, JavaScript isn't going anywhere. No.  It has some baggage. It has some legacy. But it has a big opportunity and big promise. So first, I want to get your take being the author on the web app side here at Fluent. What's your take on the current situation? Obviously, JavaScript's getting, you know, obviously it's there, it's validated, but it's got a lot more headroom and a lot more things to do. What is the roadmap look like to you? Well, I think where we're coming from is really an interesting trajectory. I think just a couple of years ago, things were stabilizing a little bit, and then suddenly, everybody started doing all kinds of crazy things with modules and AMD, and then that kind of shook a lot of things up. And I think that we're trying to get a lot of that standardized into the specifications, so there aren't all these competing formats anymore. And I think that that standardization effort is really important, and I'm excited to see that happening. So I'm really excited about that. I'm also really excited about just the added capabilities, especially on mobile, WebGL, that kind of stuff. I think all of that is really terrific for JavaScript because once we go there, there's no place we can't go, right? So JavaScript has always been looked at as, you know, a web format. I'll say build a web page, web design, and then obviously now it's evolved into a full-blown software engineering industry, right? You have a lot of serious developers now, as well as newbies coming into the fold. What's happening? I mean, obviously we're hearing a lot of tooling going on. You're just looking at people talking about standards, WebSoc, it's a conversation we're hearing more and more about not much here, but, you know, we got Node.js. You're seeing a lot more things happening. Server, you know, getting into the server side, getting into the database side. Did this catch you off guard? Did you see this coming? What was your take on this migration and creating a stack around it? So first, I think that some of the things that caught me off guard that I wasn't expecting was just how much tooling we're capable of doing with JavaScript. For instance, I've been told for years and years that we just can't do the really cool tooling without the static types and things like that in other languages. And then along comes Turn.js. And suddenly our editors are able to give us some deep insights about what is going on in our code. And that was unexpected for me. I was like, you know, I just thought we'd have to rely on our unit tests and think and, you know, just trace through the code and figure out what's going on. But now we have really good ability to track where variables are coming from, how they flow through the programs. So I think that surprised me. The advancements in Chrome's dev tools are just stunning, really amazing. So I think that is really encouraging. There's a project called Brackets that Adobe is working on. And they've got some really cool things going on with that. And I can't wait for that stuff to stabilize. It's an open source editor that's really nice. So I think as far as tooling is concerned, things have gone really, really well. I didn't expect that. And the rest API, so let's talk about standardization. That's something that everyone's been talking about in wants, right? So it's kind of a breath of fresh air there. But, you know, the API and the rest APIs is a huge breath of fresh air. Now you have some standardizations, at least an API kind of model going on. Is that, do you feel the same way about that? I really do. In fact, there was a really encouraging talk here, I think yesterday, specifically about that. How to create better, restful APIs that are more restful, where you can really discover, the API is more self-documenting. You can discover links to other API resources. And I think that that's a really great thing. And the hyper-media aspect of that, I think it's really gonna change things. Expansion, but that's positive. But I wanna ask you about something that I'm hearing a lot about here, AngularJS. What's going on with that? How does that fit into the picture here? I think I'm the wrong person to ask about Angular. I actually don't have a lot of experience with it myself. What's the buzz? I mean, I don't know much about it at all. So the buzz is that it can do a lot of things for you. It makes a lot of decisions for you, which means that you don't have to necessarily implement everything yourself, which is not the case with things like Backbone, where Backbone just gives you these basic methods of separating concerns, and then you're expected to do everything else, and wire everything up. Whereas, Angular, you mix some stuff into your tags, and it wires up your data bindings for you, and does a lot of magic behind the scenes, which means that you write less code. At least that's the... And theory. That's the theory, that's the hope. That's the dream. Yeah, that's the dream. And I think they're doing cool things, and I hope that we can take some of those cool things and apply them in other areas. So I wish them all the best. I'm not using it myself, but hopefully I'll get to play with it a little bit more in the future. Eric, talk a little bit, you're at Adobe now, right? And I used to, before it was Creative Suite, got my page maker and all those things, and boxes full of disks, and then we got boxes full of CDs, and recently Adobe announced they're not shipping boxes of anything for Creative Suite. What's kind of the vibe there? I mean, is the power of the online tools now such that they can cast off what has been disk after disk after disk load of pretty heavy lifting software, at least from the consumer side? So I think that that's a really exciting question. I've been building web apps pretty much exclusively for several years now, and I'm really excited about software as a service and subscription-based models, and I'm really excited about the kinds of value that we can deliver to our customers using that model. So I'm really thrilled about the decision. I think that when people start using the Creative Suite tools, or the Creative Cloud tools, and they start to get used to having all those additional cloud-enabled features, they're gonna wonder how they ever got along without it, honestly. And I think as we progress and mature the platform, that's gonna become more and more apparent, and honestly, I think it's a more affordable model for a lot of people than having to save up your money and pony up $700 for a single piece of software. But it was also pretty heavy lifting computational stuff for people that aren't doing hardcore things at the enterprise, and to be able to do those in a browser, it's pretty spectacular. So a lot of that stuff is you actually download the apps still, they still run on your desktop. There are some apps that run entirely in the cloud, and you go to the website to use those apps. But most of the Creative Cloud Suite right now is all, it's all desktop apps, and we give you a really great download tool to download them, but then they also have additional capabilities that you didn't have before, like the ability to easily collaborate with people, people in different countries, people on different teams, sharing media files and resources, and seeing updates in real time, and things like that are just capabilities that we couldn't have easily put into the desktop app without the Creative Cloud platform. So I mean, it's really exciting stuff. Great, I'll have to get that one. So what's going on in Adobe, obviously Adobe is no stranger to user experience and user interface, so I want to get you to take, just kind of like as a developer looking at the landscape, there's still the eye on the prize. The prize is user experience and user expectation, and that's up in the air. You got some tech trends that are driving a technology, you mentioned tooling and platform general purpose stuff and the APIs and RESTful APIs as a platform, and that's going to go to the data center, it's going to drive all kinds of infrastructure, velocity, it'll cover all that stuff, but still you got to develop a great user experience. We are scooting here, we're doing, changing the game on scooters by embedding some stuff to some user experience, and so the user expectations are changing. How do you guys at Adobe, how do you guys talk about that internally? You got to do new things, you got to be innovating. What's your thoughts on the changing expectation? So internally this is really a technology story. We have the capability now of looking at how our users are using the apps and being able to react quickly to those changes, especially since we went into the Creative Cloud. We're able to respond a lot faster, we're able to patch the software a lot faster. With the subscription model, you don't wait two or three years to upgrade your app. If there's a user experience issue, we fix it and we fix it fast. And I think that that's a game changer for Adobe and I think that our ability to create mind-blowing user experiences has been exponentially grown. How about let's talk about development processes. So you go back to when I was a lad, software development techniques are pretty linear, and you had waterfalls, now it's like Agile has been great, that's a methodology, but Agile's been synonymous when you add cloud onto it, it's just push code and fix it when it breaks, kind of taking out the QA side of it, or crowdsource QA. You can do that on the web, the web is, you can be managed yet. But mobile now is blending, it's now a web experience, it's not just mobile anymore. Can Agile work on mobile? We were debating that on Android, it's getting updates every day, Apple's a little bit more closed than say the Android. So maybe you can update your stuff to code, add more Agile and say Android than Apple, but does Agile programming kind of fit the mobile model? I mean, web it's no problem. So you can do it more methodology, method cleaner on the QA side, or push it, break stuff like Mark Zuckerberg would say, and then fix it fast. Mobile's harder depending upon platforms. What's your take on that as a developer? So my take is that mobile is, I think in the future, right now a lot of people are doing native apps, and a lot of people believe that native apps are the way to go. But I think in the future, you're gonna see that all of that software lives in the cloud and we can update it, just like we update the web. And I think that that's really the direction that things are gonna go in that space. And I know Adobe certainly can't just push things to the cloud and fix it if it breaks. We have a rigorous testing cycle. I wasn't suggesting that. I wasn't suggesting that. Yeah, we have a lot of software. I mean, from a pre-packaged software standpoint, there's a lot of DNA to Adobe, so I'm sure that's pretty good. But the web guys you talk to, it's like, oh, let's start off some stuff. And I mean, nothing really breaks the whole site, but mobile could. So we were debating kind of the young startups. Can Agile work in mobile? I think that it can. And I've seen it work in some companies. Obviously, the sprints are a little bit longer because there's, in some cases, you push a release to your mobile app store and then it has to get cleared and that process takes, who knows how long. And then once it gets out there, it's kind of fixed there at that point for that whole cycle again. So you've gotta be careful about what you're pushing to mobile. Get back down on discipline. Yes, that's right. You still gotta have QA. You definitely need that QA process. And I think that that QA process is really critical. And I think one way that you can ensure that is to concentrate more on building better unit tests and better integration tests and to automate more of your testing process and to really make that a critical part of your process and don't squeeze it out like whatever you've got that's ready to go, that's what you push to production, right? You don't try to squeeze everything into your release and then squeeze out the time for testing. I really think it's essential to give testing the time that it deserves so that you really have a great product when you push. So, Eric, talk a little bit about kind of the rise of the citizen developer. We hear about that a lot. Obviously developers are getting a lot more face time. Your role is much more pronounced. But talk about how these tools and the kind of maturation of the infrastructure is enabling people that haven't been coding for a long, long time to start to actually code and make contributions. So I think that the bar for entry has like dramatically lowered. Everything that you need to create great code and push code to production is available for free. There's, everything's open source. You know, a lot of tooling, every bit of tooling that you need to produce a great app is just out there available for free. Oftentimes installed on the devices that you care about. So I think it's, I think that that is really great and the fact that there are really great tools is really great. I think that there's still a little bit of an education problem, especially in JavaScript. A lot of people are using JavaScript as an educational platform now, like Khan Academy, Code Academy. And I think that that's tremendous. That's a really good change. But then even among the more experienced JavaScript developers, there are misunderstandings about the nature of the language and how to use, utilize it most effectively. And so I think there's still a big education story to tell there. Okay. Well, obviously we're here at the Fluent Conference and we're getting all the low down final question for you. What's next for the JavaScript community? I see Jake, we were asking some history as well and that's been talked about here at Angular. All these new things, very exciting, new stuff happening. The developers wanna know what's going on that's relevant and just share your perspective of the Fluent Conference in context of the developers out there watching. What's the headroom? What are the things to watch? What are the things to think about and focus on? So some of the things that I think are really cool that are coming just around the corner is you're gonna see real-time updates as you're writing your code. You're gonna see your code updating in real-time inside the running JavaScript engine on node in the browsers. We're seeing demos of that stuff coming out right now and that's really cool, really powerful stuff. So I think the development process is gonna be much, much smoother. You don't have to do the whole edit, save, refresh, restart your server kind of thing that we're used to doing. So I think that that's gonna be really cool. There's also just the capabilities that are coming along, especially on the mobile frontier. Like those things that JavaScript can't do in mobile right now, they're dropping like flies, which is fantastic. So I think that- Performance house is big in the mobile environment. Yeah, it is. And performance in JavaScript, that's a really great story too. I mean, it's come a long way. I mean, now we're at the point where there's like, I think Brent and Ike said it was like 1.3X native C code performance with Asm.js, which is just stunning. I never would have thought that we could get that low and it's going lower. So I mean, the differential between native apps and JavaScript apps is disappearing. Which- Gotta be there. Eric Elliott from Adobe wrote a book about JavaScript app development in nosines and Alphabet. Gotta study up on Angular. Check out Angular. I know, good commentary on the plus. Thanks for sharing that. We're going to watch that. This is SiliconANGLE's exclusive coverage with theCUBE, our flagship program. We go out to the events and extract the silly from the noise. We'll be right back with our next guest to wrap up day two here, our final day at Fluent Conference. We'll be right back into the short break. The Cube is this conceptual box, if you will.  We explode that idea. We allow that idea to grow and grow and it does. So we really try to own the whole enterprise technology space. I mean, that's what we're all about. We take analysis, we take publishing, we take news and we take live TV and we combine it together in a product and share that with our community. No one's doing what we're doing. What we're doing, in my opinion, is the future of media, future of television, future of the internet. Video is an amazing, powerful product. So we work in what John and I talk about as a data model. People always say to us, well, how do you guys make money? We sell knowledge, we sell information, we sell data. So the problem that we are, that we identify is about what we call big, fast total data. Anybody can analyze a gigabyte of data. If you do a thousand gigabytes, that's a terabyte of data. You take a thousand terabytes, that's a petabyte of data. A thousand petabytes, that is a terabyte of data. So you are talking big data, lots and lots of data, and can you analyze it in real time as it comes in, right? The Cube is like, we call ESPN of tech because we want to cover technology like ESPN covers sports. John has a great vision for what's going to happen next in tech and so John is sort of that alter ego of mine that lets me see the future. I've worked with us, Michael Sean Wright, Mark Hopkins, you know, we've got Kim here today. We've got a team of people on our news desk run by Kristen Nicole. So she has a team that help feed us the news of the day, what's happening, the analysis. We have a team of analysts, they feed us information about what's happening and then really importantly, we have a community, a big community of many hundreds of contributors. We love technology, we love the innovation and that's what we do. We want to create a great user experience. And in order to do that properly, you've got to really, really prepare. theCUBE for the past year that we've been in operation has been very, very successful and companies do pay us to come here. I think the companies who bring us in with theCUBE get two things, they get a third party independent resource to provide knowledge to their audience who are seeking it as demand for the product and also compliments their existing media. We're here at an event and the company has their own TV organization and they have to pay a premium for that. So we compliment that by offering a objective, organic, third party, independent analysis of the event. That's why the top executives come in here. theCUBE is a comfortable place. It's a place where people feel happy and are happy to share their knowledge with the world and we're happy to be ambassadors of that knowledge transfer. My entire career has been really built on relationships and talking to people and extracting knowledge from people largely in a belly to belly private forum. What theCUBE does is it explodes that to a huge audience. I mean, we've reached millions with theCUBE and it's real-time, it's live TV so you've got to be quick on your feet but you learn very fast and then you iterate from that learning. So John and I play off of that and we're constantly trying to up our game. Okay, we're back here live in San Francisco, day two of siliconangle.com's theCUBE, our flagship program. We go out to the advanced district as soon as from the noise. I'm John Furrier, the founder of Silicon Angle and I'm joined by my co-host Jeff Frick from Silicon Angle, Wikibon and we are here to talk a video, a startup, front-end, a lot of challenges around rich media. Obviously real-time, they're talking about the developer action here at the Fluent Conference which is put on by O'Reilly Media, wall-to-wall coverage and one of the challenges is mobile, cloud, real-time, low latency, Node.js, JavaScript, all that stuff is coming together. Great for websites and rich media into the mix can be even more challenging. So our next guest is Lyle Shearer, front-end developer at Huddle. Welcome to theCUBE. Thanks. You guys obviously have a killer app that's well-received by sports enthusiasts and Jeff Frick has a lot to add on this subject because you're a user as well as a host of theCUBE and a user of this guest so I know you're static about this so I'll let you take it away. Yeah, I was excited to see the guys, they always wear their Huddle t-shirts so I grabbed them out of the Expo Center and asked them to come on board because I think Huddle's a really interesting story. One, it involves video which is never an easy thing to work with online with low latency and all the challenges that come with that. Two, you're dealing with football coaches who, A, maybe aren't the most technical savvy guy, I mean, more than football coaches but a lot of high school coaches and other coaches. And then three, kind of what I think is an interesting story is your guys progression from a technological point of view in terms of I know you started with Silverlight and then all the guys started getting apples and they're all crazy. Yeah, I got an apple, I can't get Silverlight to work and then now as you've slowly adopted mobile and bringing more multi kind of input devices into a single system and a multi-format system where you, and I'll just talk about it. You know, they created an app for the iPhone where you can do some of your work live at the field, you upload that, then that works in conjunction with the more legacy apps that you've built and then you work in an integrated fashion. So, I don't know, I guess it wasn't much of a question. I'm sorry, I hope to talk a little bit about the development challenges as you guys have had to change with changing technology kind of as your customer demands have changed. Yeah, certainly, I mean the company really started out working with the Huskers at UNL and at that point it was actually just a thick client application. So, it wasn't really about till 2008 I believe that we started making the move towards the web and towards the high school market and just sort of adapting the technology there and that just made it a lot easier for us to scale and to support a lot more a lower cost solution for high schools that was just as applicable to them as the more expensive the client was to professional and college teams. So, that was one real big change that really led us to take off and gain a lot of customers, a lot of speed and in growth there really grew our support team which I think is really a pivotal part of our success too. You know, we have a great product but we really have world-class support so like you said, some coaches aren't the best using different computers and different websites and handling technical support issues. So, that's definitely been a real help bridging that gap. We have really power high end users as well but so definitely a lot to our support. But yeah, as you mentioned, as we've grown we had the original just the basic web application but then obviously mobile inevitably is going to become a part of this. We kind of held off for a little while and we didn't really do any mobile web app type work for the longest time but we basically skipped over that and just went right to native started with iOS and iPad and just tried to get a really great, we saw that as a perfect delivery mechanism for video. I mean, that's what iPad is one of the strongest features of this video so that just seemed like the perfect platform to really start and dive into that mobile experience. So we did that and then of course slowly moved. Basically got a lot of experience with iOS and developing for iOS and then moved to the iPhone app and then also in the middle there sort of got an Android app out there which actually currently boosting and sort of getting up to speed with sort of our iOS devices and then more recently we've got a Windows 8 app also out to sort of support another big missing platform for us. So as far as watching and reviewing your video and everything for coaches and athletes definitely have a lot of options and really have your video wherever, whenever on the video upload side and then we also originally started with a Windows client to upload the video and then later got familiar with the Mac platform and that is support for, native support for Mac to really, because we saw a huge percentage of coaches that were just demanding that. Lyle, I want to ask you about user experience because you guys have a product that, you know, your target audience is not so tech savvy, coaches possibly, Jeff, you know what I'm talking about and there's a lot of user design issues but also some tech involved. We heard some folks who were talking about Node making it really fast on the latency side. Have you guys, have you identified those challenges and what kind of opportunities do you see in that area? Yeah, I mean, we're constantly, you know, at our core it's delivering video, it is our product and we've been slowly trying to incorporate, you know, like HTML, HTML5 video delivery and had issues with that in different areas. We still are sort of current main delivery other than the mobile apps is with SilverLite. So that does have some limitations. We also, you know, look into different capabilities of SilverLite and other medias, like the, I'm like on the name now, but being able to, you know, jump to the middle of the video clip without loading the entire thing. Some things like that. Yeah, I mean, one of the great things about Huddleton you guys have a real appreciation for your customer and football coach is just sure once heard stories whether you're into it or not.  They work, they work, they work their work and the other interesting thing is you can never look at too much film. You can always go back through the film and look at it again. So there's this real singular focus on speed and enabling those guys to do their job faster, having concurrent tagging for multiple people, trying to get it up, now having the preloaded tags from the app. Talk a little bit about how that kind of a design philosophy influences what you do. And then two, as you've adopted these other kind of mobile technologies, how that's enabled you to kind of rethink your application. Yep.  And that's one that keeps ringing true because that is really what coaches want is to get at their video. And you know, maybe some other things, but at the core, they really want to watch their video. They want their players to watch their video, but they want to just get to the video, cut through everything else and just get that video. So that's something that's helped us, you know, keep bringing the focus back to where it needs to be not getting distracted by all these side features and little things, unless those help get you to your video quicker, more quickly. But yeah, we definitely have sort of taken some different approaches or being able to experiment a little bit with our mobile, our native apps, being able to sort of rethink like what is really the most important thing to experience here. So if you're using our web, you know, huddle.com, you know, the experience is a lot different because it's still sort of building on the original, the original idea, whereas the mobile is much more streamlined as just, you know, video, just minimal infrastructure to actually get to that and just being able to skip through really easily and really data-driven, being able to view plays based off different stats and just trying to really quickly navigate the video. The navigation is phenomenal. Like I said, if I had a nickel for all the hours I spent on huddle, I would be a rich man. So I want to thank you for coming on. I know we just kind of grabbed you and I got excited for bringing you Kazan because it's a great application. It's also a great story of a tech startup coming from not tech. I was an assistant coach. He needed a tool. He's got the tools. They built a great little tech company out in the heartland and have got tremendous market penetration, not only in high schools, but in colleges and also some proteins as well. And great end user experience. Ultimately the theme of the show is about user experiences. Congratulations. This is theCUBE here at O'Reilly's Fluent Conference. Tweet us, I'm at Furrier. Also tweet us any questions, we'll address them for you and go to the hashtag Fluent Conference, FluentConfCONF and we'll follow your tweets and bring you outside theCUBE. This is theCUBE at O'Reilly Media's Fluent Conference. We'll be right back after this short break. The Cube is this conceptual box if you will and we bring people inside of theCUBE and then we share ideas, but those ideas don't stay inside theCUBE. We explode that idea. We allow that idea to grow and grow and it does. So we really try to own the whole enterprise technology space. I mean that's what we're all about. We take analysis, we take publishing, we take news and we take live TV and we combine it together in a product and share that with our community. No one's doing what we're doing. What we're doing in my opinion is the future of media.