Hello and welcome. Thank you for joining us today. My name is Fabiagigi. I am the chair of the Japan Research Center at SOAS University of London and it's my great pleasure to introduce the proceedings today. I'm an anthropologist of Japan and I've been interested in the links between Buddhism and technology for a long time. So I'm Genya Gorbaneiko from the Ethno-ISS project and ethnography of the International Space Station hosted at UCL approached me and said there is a Japanese company that plans to launch a Buddhist temple into space. I was all ears and who wouldn't be? There's something about the juxtaposition of temple and space, the final frontier that stirs the imagination and raises questions like is salvation limited to planetary beings or is the cosmos that we talk about in anthropology and religious studies actually much closer to the cosmos that astronomers talk about. It is my honor to introduce our speakers today who will address these questions. Please give a warm welcome to Reverend Nakata Jinei and Director Kitagawa Sadahiro. Mr Kitagawa Sadahiro graduated from the Graduate School of Management at the University of Kyoto. He joined the internet provider Kagoya Japan LDD in 1996 when it was still a fledgling business and turned it into a large-scale service provider. Since 2020 he is the director of Terraspace LTD. Our other speaker, Reverend Nakata Jinei, is the chief priest of the Venerable Daigoji Temple in Kyoto and the general affairs manager of the Daigo branch of Shingon Buddhism. He graduated in Buddhist studies from Taisho University and has received Denpo Kanjo at the Samboin sub temple in 1987 which is the esoteric initiation. He was the first Buddhist monk to attend the World Economic Forum in 2003 and is engaging in a wide range of cultural activities. I'm also very glad that we are joined today by Bethan Jones our interpreter who will translate the talk and the Q&A. Please save your questions for the end and put them in the Q&A box which you'll find at the bottom of your screen. So without further ado I will now hand over to our speakers. So I am uh hello let me just say hello to start with my name is Nakuda Nakada we also have Kitamura here and alongside my colleague Kitagawa-san we will be giving our talk today we're very happy to be with you. The first Kitagawa-san is going to be speaking about where the idea came from to build a temple in space and then from there I'm going to be talking a bit about Buddhism esoteric Buddhism and our ideas about space. Yeah thank you. Is it okay? Oh yeah. Good afternoon. I'm Sadahiro Kitagawa a president of Terra Space Inc space satellite developing company. Nice to meet you and thank you for inviting this lecture. Today I'll talk why we need a temple in the space. It may be difficult to explain because of cultural reason but I try the best. Please try to cooperate with you too from now allow me to use Japanese. So here on the first slide you see a mock-up of the space temple that we are currently developing. This in the background is Daigoji the temple where Nakada-san is chief priest. I'm going to start by explaining why we thought we needed a temple in space and it comes back to the Japanese temple system which is quite unique and is known as the danka system. There's an explanation of the system here. But this system arose out of historical reasons and is the way that Japanese Buddhist temples work. Basically Buddhist believers every family has to belong had to belong to a particular temple. So when a member of one of these families moves elsewhere in Japan or anywhere in the world they still belong to this one temple for the rest of their life. Whenever someone passes away in the family the family temple is where the funeral is held as well as memorial services in the future. Japanese Buddhists when there are ceremonies like this have to go back to the family temple. In the past most Japanese people were farmers and they would live in the same place from when they were born to when they die. And when people lived in one place for their whole life it made sense that they would have the one family temple but as you can see from this graph lifestyles in Japan are changing and nowadays our lives don't really suit this kind of temple system. So for example our temples and temples are in Kyushu but we are already moving to Tokyo. If your temple is in Kyushu along with the family graves but you've moved to Tokyo any funerals any ceremonies you have to go back from Tokyo to Kyushu. Which means that it ends up being that only close family and relatives will actually attend these funerals or one year memorial ceremonies three year memorial ceremonies. Which means that the people in your day to day life your friends your your workmates the people who live where you live are unlikely to be able to make it back to celebrate your life after you've passed away at the one year and then three year memorials. In the past when Japanese people lived in the same place for their whole lives a funeral or a memorial service was an opportunity not just for family and relatives but for lots of friends to get together. It used to be that these were opportunities for people to continue to celebrate their life after they've passed away. It used to be that these were opportunities for people to continue their relationship with the deceased in death as they had in life, an opportunity for them to be close and to live on in their hearts in a kind of virtual relationship. Now we are more removed from these ceremonies. It seems like it's easier to forget those who have passed. Myself, I don't go to memorial services for friends who have passed away. One reason for the weakening of this connection between the living and the dead now is because of the geographical restrictions faced by temples. If we can see the world from anywhere in the universe, we will be taken away from these restrictions. If these temples, the graves, were in space, we would be taken away from them. If these temples, the graves, were in space and you could see them from anywhere on the planet and you could connect with them wherever you lived in the world, that would be one way of doing away with these geographical restrictions and one way to achieve this is by putting a temple in space. And that's why we decided that maybe what Japanese people need is a temple in space. We made this video about the space temple that I'd like you to have a look at. And that brings my part of the presentation to a close. Thank you. So I heard about this idea from Kitagawa-san three years ago. I thought it was an excellent idea and one way of solving the issue that Japanese temples face today. I also thought that this idea of having a temple in space fit nicely in a number of ways with Buddhist teachings. But very simply, Buddhism is, Buddhist teachings are about thinking how we should live as human beings. And the most important element of that is that human beings live as part of nature. So we are part of nature. And when you go deeper, you realize that we are one form of existence in space in the universe and one life form that exists in space. And the fact that each of these individual lives is connected is an important teaching in Buddhism. It is an important concept, let's say in Japan, in Japan in general, that could be translated by, unfortunately not the best translation possible, but it could be destiny. The links between human beings and between all living things. So the idea of looking down on us, a temple looking down on us from space seemed like a good one. Another teaching is that all lives in Buddhism are equal and that speaks also to those that are invisible. And that plays out in the types of ceremonies that Kitagawa-san mentioned taking place in Japan. When someone passes away, we hold these ceremonies after one week, two weeks, one year, two years and three years in temples in Japan as an opportunity to converse with the deceased. Conversing with the deceased in this way has taught the Japanese our sense of ethics and the importance of life. I believe that Japanese people's kindness and consideration for other people and other beings, our sense of morality comes from this conversation we have with the deceased. Unfortunately, as Kitagawa-san said, those links that Japanese people have with the temples are now being diluted. And that's why I felt that it was an excellent idea to build a temple in space to rebuild those links and to be able to feel close to the temple wherever we are. And looking down on life from space means that we're not just looking at Japan, but are able to consider and pray for peace for all of the people on Earth. And that's why I believe that Japanese people's kindness and consideration for other people and other beings are now being diluted. And that's why Japanese people's kindness and consideration for other people and other beings are now being diluted. We celebrate Christmas, we visit the Shinto shrine at New Year, we visit our ancestors' Buddhist graves. All of these different religions form a part of our lives and that I think is because of the gratitude that has been taught to us by the Buddhist teachings of conversing with the departed. The temple in space means prayers without borders. It helps us to turn our thoughts to all of life. And the fact that this temple will exist in space I think will contribute to peace. This temple in space that we are aiming to launch is a very small temple, a small artificial satellite, but I hope that it will bring comfort to many, many people. This attempt is something that's impossible to achieve alone and so now we have a team of people led by Kitazawa-san working to get the space temple launched. I'd like to talk a little bit now about the teachings of esoteric Buddhism. It's going to get a bit complicated. Esoteric Buddhism teachings were developed about 500 years after Buddhism started. It is largely based on pre-Buddhist Indian teachings. One of those teachings is that people and the universe are one. Now Buddhism takes them a little bit further to say that humans are part of the universe. And so in esoteric Buddhism we look to the cosmos and pray to the sun and the moon and the stars. I know that there are other religions around the world where the sun and the moon are placed in high regard, where wishes are sent to the stars, where different natural powers are prayed to. And the plan is that prayers will be sent to the space temple, the artificial satellite in the form of data, and that this will then be sent onwards to the stars. Which will help our prayers to reach the stars.  This isn't Buddhist or Shinto teaching. This is a popular belief. And we're also planning that you can send the data on a deceased person in the form of their posthumous Buddhist name and a portrait data on that person to the satellite which again can then be sent to the stars. Kitigawa-san spoke about the issues faced by Japanese temple and I have spoken about the links to Buddhism and esoteric Buddhism, but beyond that there's a simple hope that having a temple in space will help everyone to feel that those that have departed are still up there looking down on us. There are also people who are working for space development and space. I think that praying for the safety of those people is another role of this alien. I hope that the space in space will not become a place for discussion, but for us to think about each other. I hope that space as we explore it becomes not a place for fighting, but a place where we can all come together and in consideration for each other. And that will be a useful place for all of our futures. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Thank you for listening to this very valuable story. I would like to move on to Q&A. I was wondering what is the main image of the space temple, the Honson, and how is it related to the Honson at the Daigoji? That's quite specific. The main image is Dainichi Norei, the Dainichi Buddha, the main Buddha of hysteric Buddhism. That will be the main image of the space temple. Daigoji is a big temple, so there are not only one Honson, but there are many Buddha statues in the temple. Depending on the wishes and hopes of the people who come to Daigoji, the Buddha statues are different. Daigoji itself is a very large temple, so it doesn't have just the one Buddha image. It has a number of different Buddhas and worshippers will choose who to visit depending on their intentions and their needs at that time. The Buddha statue in the temple is the Dainichi Norei, so the Dainichi Norei is the first Honson in the temple. However, it is not just the Dainichi Norei, it is one of the statues. In Japan, Buddhism and Shinto are the same, so the gods are also there. This is the reason why we have gone with Dainichi Norei for the initial image for the space temple. He should be taken as symbolic of the other Buddhas as well, and also Shinto, because in Japan Buddhism and Shinto started out as the same thing. We would like to think that the Shinto deities are also represented in the space temple. Thank you very much. I will take up the first question in the Q&A. Bethany, if you open up you can see it. It's from Eugenia Gorbanenko, and she asks, Time and time again, astronauts are presented as icons of technological progress. They're held up as testament to human achievements in science and the possibility of transcendence of humans natural limitations. In some cultures, notably in the Soviet Union, the astronaut was an icon of scientism and atheism. What is the status of the astronaut in Buddhism? Transcendent or... In the past, the astronaut was a symbol of technological progress.  I think you can see how much human progress has been made in science and atheism. In the Soviet Union, the astronaut was a symbol of science and atheism. In the Soviet Union, the astronaut was a symbol of science and atheism. What is the status of the astronaut in Buddhism? It's difficult. In Buddhism, there is no connection between humans and humans. In Buddhism, as I mentioned earlier, it's a religion that has been analyzed by thinking about the existence of humans and the existence of the world. It's a very scientific, as I said, scientific, and I think it's not a religion. As I mentioned earlier, Buddhism is a religion that started out through the analysis of human existence and analysing the world. So nowadays, we might say that it is a scientific religion. It's a very important thing to respect. The connection with the religion is something that we have to discuss from now on. Let's say, the world. And the connection between space and religion is one that maybe, and between science and religion, is one that maybe requires more discussion in future. I don't know if that answers your question. Thank you very much. There's quite a few very interesting questions coming in. I will take up the next one by Guillermo Figueredo, who asks, thank you for your very interesting presentations. This is a truly fascinating project. I was wondering about the efficacy of having a temple in space. Since the temple will not be physically accessible to anyone as it is in space, how exactly will it reproduce the kind of relationships and involvement only possible in particular places. Doesn't the total erasure of borders, the transcending of place also imply the impossibility of relating to something. Since a thing without limits could potentially be anything or nothing at all. Or do you think a temple that is not anywhere in particular that has no place represents the possibility of bringing together many different people and places. Thank you for your very interesting presentation. I think it's a very interesting project. I would like to ask about the efficacy of space and religion. I think there is a temple that no one can actually go to in space. How can we reproduce the kind of relationships between the temple and the place? I think there is a possibility that there is no place without borders, and that there might be no place without borders, and that there might be no relationship between the two. Since there is no place without borders, will there be a possibility of bringing together many different people from different places? I will go. I will go. Yes. I will go. It's a difficult question, but I would like to explain a little bit. I haven't talked about it before, but I will explain from there. It's a difficult question, but I will try to address it, and I'll start by explaining something that I left out of my presentation earlier. Actually, this alien is a human race, but this human race will come back to Earth after 5 years of mission. The space temple is a man-made satellite, and once it's completed its mission, in about 5 years' time, it will drop out of orbit and fall back to Earth, whereupon it will burn up on re-entry into the atmosphere and evaporate. But it actually has one other function. It is the name of the human race, or the name of the body that has disappeared in the space. It is the data of each species. As we've heard, the space temple will have on board the posthumous Buddhist names and memorial portraits of deceased people in the form of optical data. And this will be able to be sent to specific stars, specific constellations. We will be able to transmit things like photographs and names of deceased people. And in some cases, potentially genetic information. We will be able to transmit things like photographs and names of deceased people in the form of optical data. So this data can be transmitted in the form of light in the direction of, for example, Orion. And it will keep going in perpetuity. The furthest reaches of the universe that we know about 13.8 billion light years away. And so in theory, the light emitted from the space temple will keep going for at least that length of time. So the space temple will be gone in five years. But the data of the deceased person, and the feeling of the deceased person, can be transmitted in the form of light in the form of optical data. And Orion is also present in the form of a long-term period of human time. Even if the human race is gone, it can be remembered that it is gone just by looking at Orion. Orion is the northern hemisphere of the Earth. And it can be seen through one year. In other words, what I want to say is that there is a human race there, and there is an alien race there. Even once the space temple itself has physically disappeared, the light emitted carrying that data from the deceased people and along with it the memories of those still alive will travel forever. The safety is pretty much close enough to forever in space. And if it's going in the direction of Orion in this case, whenever those left behind look up and see Orion, it will remind them of their deceased loved ones. And that's something you can see all around pretty much from the northern hemisphere. So it's not so much that the satellite is the temple, but that it being up there goes beyond borders in that way and moves beyond the geographical restrictions in the sense that that data, that light will always be there. And that we almost think that not just the satellite but the whole of space will be the space temple. Thank you very much. I think this already anticipates the answer to the question to our next question by Daniel Kappa, who says respectfully speaking, I find this idea intriguing. I understand the reasoning about funeral travel.  Then the satellite becomes space junk. Hence your idea involves adding to the garbage that we already have in space, which currently is a massive environmental problem. Looking longer term than five years, instead of enabling respect for the debt, we are multiplying the number of debt satellites and adding to dangerous junk in orbit.  How does this square with Buddhist compassion? I think you already answered part of this by explaining that the satellite actually the orbit deteriorates and then the satellite will disappear. But if you would like to add something to that. Next question. It's a very interesting idea. I often understand that it sends data to people who have disappeared. It's not the opposite of Buddhism. I admire Shingon, but satellite electronics last only about five years in the human race. Then it becomes a debris. Therefore, this idea is already a big environmental problem. Space debris, space garbage, is causing a lot of trouble. So it's not just respecting those who have disappeared. I think it's a question of increasing the amount of garbage in the future. I think there is already a part of the answer, but if you would like to add something to that. This is almost like what Kitagawa-san explained earlier. It's already gone. Let's say it's related to the text. It's related to the reality. Therefore, it's not a debris. In other words, there is a way to think that it can be hidden. It's a little difficult, but it's the recognition of our hearts. The most important thing in our hearts is the teaching of Buddhism. Especially the teaching of Buddhism. It may not exist, but that's where it really existed. In the past, it was all in our hearts. This time, you can see the data, but you can't see the data. By flying that data, I think it's one of the characteristics of the existence of the air. Sorry, it's difficult. Yes, as you say, Kitagawa-san has already addressed a lot of that question. The satellite will break down. It will disappear, essentially, return to molecules and atoms. We have the concept of emptiness in Buddhism as an important one. The idea that everything, ultimately, what exists within our hearts is the most important thing. Previously, all of this existed only within our hearts. Now, the space temple will be up there. Even when it's no longer there, the data will still be there, even though we can't see it. The data, in that sense, is a representation of what we call cool emptiness. Thank you. We have a number of really interesting questions that are still coming in. Let's ask a few conceptual things. Somebody asks, what constitutes a Buddhist temple? Could you elaborate a bit on how you translated your concept of a temple into something that can be launched into space with a rocket? Next, let's talk about conceptual things. What is a Buddhist temple? How did you change it into something that can be launched into space? I think I've been explaining this earlier.  In Japan, it's a place for each region. It's a place for people's hearts. I talked about it earlier. It's a place for the universe.     A temple is a refuge for people's hearts. That has traditionally existed as we've explained in each region of Japan. Now that that no longer works for our lifestyles, we're trying to replicate that in space. Thank you. Together with that, another quite concrete question. Can you tell us some more details about the satellite itself? In particular, what kind of orbit it will be taking and how long will it be planned to remain in orbit? Next, a specific question. Can you tell us a little bit more about the artificial satellite? For example, how long and how long will it last? I will answer it. According to the plan we're planning to launch, the code will be 500 km from the ground. It's called the Earth-based orbit, and it will be around the orbit of the low Earth orbit. This orbit will take about 90 minutes to complete the orbit. If it's in this code, it will take about 5 years. The orbit will take about 5 years. It will take about 5 years to complete the orbit. It will take 5 years to complete the orbit. The orbit will take about 5 years to complete the orbit. The launch we're planning for the satellite is a planned orbit of around 500 km above the Earth, what we call low Earth orbit. At that altitude, it will take about 90 minutes. At that altitude, it will remain in orbit for 5 years. Over the next 3 to 5 years, it will fall out of orbit and eventually burn up on re-entering the atmosphere. Thank you. The next question is by Tomoe Steinek. Reverend Nakata has already touched this, but purchase and occupation of space is a huge issue. Have you internally addressed such a discussion that is likely to arise when other religious communities hear about the Shingon Buddhist temple in space and may oppose this idea? It is, after all, a specific visual symbol that is not shared by all humanity, and I have so far no knowledge about other religions having similar projects. I've just mentioned the topic by Nakata-sensei, but I think that the issue of space development and space-building is one of the major issues. If you hear that other religions have the Shingon Buddhist temple in space and have the Shingon Buddhist temple in space, what would you do if you were to oppose it? This is a symbol of Buddhism, and it is not shared by all humanity, but I don't think there is such a plan in other religions, as far as I know. How do you think? Yes, I think Kitagawa-san and I focus on Buddhism, but we are already talking about sharing this religion with people in the shrine. So you're right that Kitagawa-san and I have Buddhism, central to our initial thinking, but we've already spoken with Shinto shrines in Japan about sharing the temple. And as I mentioned, I do hope that this will be able to function as a symbol, as a refuge for people's hearts that goes beyond religious boundaries. I hope that we can all share that part of our hearts, so that Shinto Guru-san and Shinto Guru-san can also talk to us. I hope that in that spirit we'll be able to share this temple and we're having that conversation already with Shinto priests in Japan. Of course, each religion has its own teachings as well, and what I'm describing may be difficult and may just be a dream at the end of the day, but as a small step, I hope that creating and providing this kind of space for Shinto, as a small step, I hope that creating and providing this kind of space in space is a small step towards that. Thank you very much Tomoe-san, very good creation. Thank you very much. The next question is by Christoph Brumann, who asks, is the space temple mainly meant as a cemetery, a special form of Poti or Hakaba? It was suggested that the data of deceased individuals can in some way be sent and stored there. Would that be the main purpose or can descendants also do Omairi and visit and visit the temple in some way? How would that work? As for the space temple, what is the special Hakaba Poti? Is that the main role? There was a story about the data being sent and stored there, but is that the main purpose or is that the main purpose? In that case, can you do Omairi? Yes, it's difficult. As I said earlier, it's not a cemetery, it's a place of heart, so we will also accept prayers. So it's not a cemetery, as I say, it's a refuge for the heart, and so we will also accept prayers. Data... I think there is a sense of a cemetery in Japan, but in Japan, as a deceased person, we will ask for prayers or we will ask for our hearts. As I said earlier, we have decided whether we are right or not. So, in terms of the temple, there is also a role, and there is also a role that is not. I think it would be nice if you could understand it. I'm sorry, I couldn't understand it. It does fulfill the role of a cemetery in the sense that the data is stored there, but also for Japanese people, we pray through the departed. And conversing with them, as I say, is a form of introspection of judging our own actions. So that's another role that the temple will play. So it is part cemetery, but part something else. I'm not sure if that's a good answer to your question. Thank you. Then there's another question about the connection with esoteric Buddhism by Tony Milligan who asks, is the idea of a strong connection to space, the recovery of a neglected idea within esoteric Buddhism, or a theme which has been consistently present? Did you keep thinking about it? I used to keep thinking about it, but the original is not Buddhism, it's the Vedas, which is called Uppari Shad. It's an old Indian philosophy. The Buddhism changed the way and became a秘境. I hope you think about it. From that point on, in the 2000s, the existence of space and the existence of humans has become one of the most important teachings in the秘境. It's still there, but it's still expressing space. It was an original teaching of esoteric Buddhism that came from, as I mentioned, the pre-Buddhist teachings in India from Veda. That was arranged in a Buddhist way and became esoteric Buddhism, Mikur, that has then been handed down for 2000 years. It's been there the whole time, the importance of the relationship between humans and space. Space, in fact, the universe is represented by the mandalas. Thank you. There's another question by Dimitri Apparin that relates to that. He writes, I was very struck by what you said about sending prayers as data to space. What is the relationship between prayer and data? Is anything lost in the translation of words into code? And in what form will the data be sent on further into space? First of all, as mentioned earlier, the heart is the most important part of our relationship. It's important to have the heart to be sent into text, in text, in text, in text, in text, in text, in text, in text, and so on. いう意味でそれを人口衛生に載せていたときに その心が宇宙へ向けて 飛び立っていく というふうに考えています Well as I said that the most important thing is the heart behind the prayer and so whether that takes the form of text of words of data is the heart behind it that is the most important thing and that is what is being transmitted to space and beyond 何人が送信される形は? 送信する形は 送信する 送信する方法なんですけれど まずこの宇宙人では ウェブからもそういった悔用とか お祈りというものを受けつけています その場合はテキストデータになりますので 単純にそのテキストデータをバイナリ情報にして 光の強弱ですね そういった形で送ることになります またですねそれだけではなくて あの手書きの 社教の 一時社教という これがちょっと英語にも 訳せるかな えーとね うん あの えー まあ器官をですね あの まあ手書きで書いた情報なども 送ることができるんですけれど まあこれはですね あのスキャンしたものを バイナリデータとして あの送信します so we are accepting prayers online to be sent to the temple prayers and information on departed people so it's text when we receive it that's turned into binary data and then sent it will be sent optically we also accept handwritten prayers which are then scanned and again turned into binary thank you there's been I mean there's a few more questions coming in and next question is by yagi moris thank you so much for this fascinating presentation esoteric buddhism has devised complex ways to communicate with the buddhas that relied on the body in the video i noticed lights emanating from the space temple it might be just related to the video but in the absence of the body is there an intention to employ new technological means to communicate with the buddhas and bodhisattvas in space thank you yagi moris面白いプレゼンをどうも ありがとうございました 密教では 体を使った ほっと消さまとの コミュニケーションをとる方法 があの大開発されていると思います 先ほどの動画の中で 宇宙人から光が出てる っていうのがあったと思うんです でもそれは 動画のためにそうしただけ なかもしれませんが 体がそのお寺に行って 宇宙に行けない限り その代わりのまた新しい 技術的な方法をもって 新しいほっと消さまとの コミュニケーション方法を 利用する予定ですか 本来その密教では その明祖という中で 難しい武器用具をはぼくと 明祖という中で心の中で その宇宙に飛び立ってくんですね で宇宙の中に自分がいるという ふうに感じるんですね まあ実際それは難しいですけれども その少なくとも レーターとか 自分の 関わっている 宇宙人っていうのは まそこへ なんか一歩近づける ところと言いましょうか まあ心の中の明祖だけではなくて ああ実際にそこに宇宙人があるんだな そこにもし自分がいたら どうなんだろうというふうに 実際いけないんですけれども 次の一歩が まあ密教的にも 踏み出せる かもしれないですね すいません難しいんですけれども It's another hard one Isotero Buddhism uses meditation and not to try not to make it too complicated. We meditation is an opportunity to visit the universe inside our hearts and to feel the universe inside of us. And so by having that data in space and that temple in space maybe it brings us a step closer to being there. Up until now we've only been there in our hearts in meditation and of course even if we can't actually go to this base temple maybe it helps us imagine that maybe we could and brings us a step closer to being up there. Thank you very much. We're almost at the end of our time but I think because it's such a unique opportunity we can take two more questions. The one is fairly short. You spoke of the data to be transmitted through the space temple and your ideas surrounding the space temple but what are the physical elements other than the Buddhist image that make up the satellite? What are the physical elements inside the satellite? The Mandala is depicted in Buddhism. It represents the universe. I'm not sure yet but I'm talking to the Shinto people in Japan. The temple, the temple, and the temple are also depicted. 絵画が宇宙の空間って非常に難しいので、なかなかいろんなものは入れませんので、絵画ということが限界なんですが、絵画ことを考えています。 あとは人工衛生の色んな、こう、姿勢をセーブしたり、いろいろする、ちゃんと、システムですね。 もう一度の辺は詳しくは北川さんの本が、はやい話していますけれども。 From the Buddhist side, there will be the Mandala, as I mentioned, that represents the universe. And although it's not confirmed yet, we hope that there will also be some Shinto representations within the temple. It's tricky sending actual objects into space, so representations of Shinto objects is what we would like to have in there. And then there's all the stuff you would expect in a satellite, like attitude correction systems and other things that I will leave it to Kitagawa-san to explain. 私の方から技術的な装備について説明させていただきますと、まずですね、人工衛生に電源を供給するための太陽光パネルですね。 その太陽光パネルとその衛生が地球の影に隠れた時にも電源を供給するためのバッテリーがあります。 こちらが努力系の設備ですね。 On the technical side, firstly there will be solar panels to power the satellite and a battery, so it also has power when it's in the shadow of the earth. それからですね、この人工衛生の姿勢を制御するための仕組みとして、時期取るかというものを装備しております。 これは時期を利用して人工衛生の姿勢を制御するための簡単な装置ですね。 There will also be a simple device that uses magnets to control the attitude of the satellite. あとはですね、人工衛生の正確な位置を知るために、スターセンサーというものが乗っております。 これはですね、星の位置を確認することで、自分がどこにいるかを知ることができる授知ですね。 There will also be a positioning system called star sensor, which uses the position of the stars to calculate the location of the satellite. その他ですね、この人工衛生というか、宇宙人に乗っているご本存ですとか、そのご本存から地球を見た様子。 そういったものを撮影するためのカメラであったり、そのカメラで撮影した映像を地球に送るための通信系の設備なども乗っております。 Thank you very much. Oh, sorry. ちなみにですね、そのカメラの改造度はVGA相当となっておりますので、そんなに改造度が高くありませんので、あまりGoogle Mapのように細かいところまで見るもんではないですね。 The camera will be quite a low resolution one, so it won't be like looking at Google Maps. Thank you very much. There's many more questions which we won't have time to answer. I'll end with this because we are here so it has to be a question about the political economy by Claudia Marra who asks, thank you for this interesting webinar. I would like to ask a very disworldly question. Since the Danca system, temples generated a considerable amount of their income by selling Terauke certificates and burial and memorial services. Kaimyo and Buddhist services are already very expensive as they are now. Wouldn't a temple in space be only affordable for very rich people? Also, some temples offer apps to visit graves or temples. Why then a temple in space? I'd like to ask one last question. In the Danca system, temples generated a considerable amount of their income by selling Terauke certificates and burial services. Kaimyo and Buddhist services are already very expensive. I'd like to ask a very disworldly question. Since the Danca system, temples generated a considerable amount of their income by selling Terauke certificates and burial services. Why then a temple in space? I'd like to ask one last question. Why is it necessary to create temples in space? First of all, it is a matter of price. The amount of data is used in various ways. I would like to make it a system to choose from cheap items to expensive items. I think that the current Danca system is already limited in Japan. I hope that the temple will use these 10G to develop a new Danca system. In response to the first part of the question, there will be different options depending on the volume of data that you want to send to the space temple. So there will be cheaper options through to more expensive ones. We believe that the Danca system has reached its limits and hopefully this will help temples to establish a new form of Danca system. We can't actually go to the place where the temple will be built. It's a long way from where the temple will be built, but it's still far from the place where the temple will be built. We believe that the temple will be built in the space temple. We believe that it will be better for us to build a place where the temple will be built. Well, in the sense that with the apps that you mentioned, you're not actually visiting the temple or the grave. So to the satellite in space is pretty far away, but in the case of a satellite, there will be times when it is right above you. And we plan an app where you'll be able to check the position of the satellite, which is something you can do already via apps with existing satellites.  And we still think it's nicer to move beyond that. Thank you so much. This brings us to the end of our event. I would really say thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for putting up with our very broad and sometimes very nosy questions about the space temple. Thank you, Nakata-san. It is evening in Japan. We're only just reaching lunchtime. Thank you very much also to Kitawa-san for joining us. It was really a unique opportunity to ask the questions and we've had 85 attendance, which is quite rare for JSE events. It just speaks to the popularity of this topic and the kind of imagination that it triggers. This brings us to the end of our event. Thank you, Nakata-san, Kitawa-san. Thank you very much. It's evening in Japan. It's almost lunchtime. Thank you so much for answering the very broad and sometimes very nosy questions about the space temple. Thank you. So we thank our sponsor, the Meiji Jingu Intercultural Research Institute, and also the SOA Center for the Study of Japanese Religious Studies. Thank you so much for putting up with our very broad and sometimes very nosy questions about the space temple. Thank you. So we thank our sponsor, the Meiji Jingu Intercultural Research Institute, and also the SOA Center for the Study of Japanese Religions, as well as the Ethno ISS project at UCL. And of course we thank Besson Jones, who did an amazing job interpreting, and also to Jenny Gorbanenko, who designed The Flyer. Thank you very much for joining us today, and I hope you have a restful end of the day, wherever you are.


All right, let the gentlemen sit down and then get started. I'm starting at 12.04. I know the time now is that you guys are just that I get that forward sign. So I know the sitting is smiling. OK, all right. Good morning. Say good morning. How difficult is that? One more time. So interaction design is losing balance with my talk. I have 20 minutes to go with the rest. Before I get started, let me ask how many people can't decide what's in this book? Can't even answer it. You don't need to. Come on, the hands need to go up more. Everybody's a designer, you know, if it's on the right. Let me see all the hands go up. You're all developers, right? In some right, we are all designers, ain't it? Cool. So today, I'm going to present a session called interaction design, use and dose. It was actually a very politically incorrect irreverent take on how design gets translated on the web. OK, so this talk is not about stuff that you would learn at a place like NIV. I'm not going to give you, like, high details of theory, but it's a very practical oriented life experience over the situations as to what people tend to do in interaction design and what people could learn differently. Question number one. What is, in your opinion, is interaction design? Can somebody define it to me? Anyone, yeah? Don't be shy. Yes? OK, good. Go ahead. Yes? It's a very important interaction design. Very nice. Exciting. Yeah. So interaction design is, unlike your graphic design or your print posted design, it has got an aspect that somebody is going to interact with what you are designing. That is the reason why interaction design is a form tougher concept to understand that it is more difficult to design. So on that note, let me introduce myself. My name is Harish. I am the random bed guy at Adobe. I get paid to actually go and speak with conferences and con people to believe that I'm intelligent. So that's what I am. I'm also a decision maker back at Adobe. That's pretty nice for that hand. And this is very important. I know how nice that is. So whether or not how this session goes around will like me, yeah? Because I'm the nice guy. Right? Right. Okay. So let's get started. All of us agree this, right? Design is subjective. All of us agree to this. It even has to be form. See, that's what. What form is actually painted in color? Think about it. You'll get me started. Right. See, that's it. That's what. Design is subjective. And most of the things that I am saying are subjective to me. Right? Don't agree with me. Say that to me. It doesn't really matter to me. Similarly, what I'm going to say is something that you don't agree with me doesn't really matter to me. Because that's the essence of what you're doing. But certain things can be patternized, and that's exactly what I'm trying to put forward in this session. So I haven't heard about human interfaces. Everybody talks about this in several respects. See, I don't really understand the real technical knowledge of what human interfaces is. But most of the times I have seen people replicating human behavior on interfaces. Can you give me an example? It was growing and essentially when you say, you know what? Everybody put reference here. You know what I think. Okay. Okay, that's one. Anybody else? See, for me, I'll tell you. The most annoying human behavior I have seen in my experience is showing analog rock to show time on the page. With the second you were clicking in an animation, it could be a jiff or it could be like an SVT, it could be a flash animation. The next one was the most annoying thing I have is the page flip effect that non-flash guys have finished through their lives. It's just slowly the bad thing we have actually flipped the page, moved the mouse through the middle of the page, and it will slowly the animation change over. That's human behavior, I think, but that's freaking annoying. I hate it. But there are people who like, people are still using it. That's fine, but I hate it. So in my experience, certain human behaviors should not be replicated on doing stuff for the web. We have to actually reflect what humans do, given a particular condition. What can you do post with something? And how do you translate that into an interface is actually what defines how you do the interaction design. So directly transporting all physical aspects that you do in life into the web to actually result in really disastrous results. So that's why I call out very simple demand plans. It's actually a nucleated term of commandment that every interaction designer should follow. And my experience does not come as a graphic designer. I am not a qualified UI UX guy, but what I really am is a guy who actually worked with several large-scale projects with designers, with developers, in large companies, in not so easy conducive situations. So what really happens is designing becomes a one-way cumbersome exercise as opposed to an Oxy process that it needs to be. So many things beautiful. Do you know some of those guys? Yeah, I think I know some of them. Right. So who is he? This is the third Kira Jader, Viking Mafia. Yeah. He is the most beautiful thing I've seen in various projects. Look at that. Right. So why do I say this? You know, why do you need anything beautiful? Beauty is again a subjective condition, but why do you need anything to be beautiful? Let me get off to you guys. To feel good? To feel good, then? To connect. To connect? Then go on a date. Make it beautiful. Make it beautiful. See that the essence of doing an interface between interaction design is that that whole presentation that you get needs to be beautiful in a certain sense. See, it might just blow my mind.   See, it takes a lot of heart and soul to create something downright ugly. But as the guys, that program was specifically without making much effort to actually achieve that. See, because most of the times UI is an afterthought. UI design is a guy who is generally getting paid. He is the guy who works with rectangles and squares. We just don't even know how to declare a variable. But then, taking that in mind, you actually end up building something which looks like ira. But you respect that idea. But the first requirement is make something beautiful. Second one. Make things fast and agile.  We need a fast, not agile. Right, sir? So, when you're building something, the greatest piece of software which takes hours to load or hours to manifest is useless. Simple things. See, I really miss the creative part. I'm a big fan of the creative application. But I think it works really fast. It's a personal experience. It's just a simple web page. It doesn't have a lot of graphical elements going into it. And it's really fast. It really works. Third point first. Make things really expressive. Really expressive. This point, I ended up with the guy in the picture. He's the most expressive I've ever known. From screening to swearing at the umpires to crying, he has done everything. So, sometimes, when I think about an expressive person, this guy comes to my mind. I'm from Kerala. My heart bruises coconut iron. Right, sir? So, considering your fellow Manu man having this wide range of expressions, these are very good examples of how you can make things look really expressive. So, we'll come to examples. We'll come to thinking points in terms of all these points. And finally, this is my favorite slide. Make things that work every day. This guy works every day. Even in the moon. He's the guy with the split the bullet. Even his brother-in-law can create a song which is viral on YouTube. He just works every day. I'm just setting context. This is not on top. I'm just setting context. See, the five elements are simple. These are things that we already know. We want beautiful things. We want them to work for us. We want them to express themselves. We want them to work everywhere.  Why write in the future? How many times do we go beyond the unit test? I have several times seen engineers build a login form with two text inputs, type it and click enter. It works. Now, the designer will come and write a CSS. And if he doesn't write a CSS, what do I have? I still got something working. And eventually, the user will even get to use it. The first one, I asked the PC application with a great example of that. My name is not in my domain. I have a subtle application. But you have to get used to it. You're not trying to change it. That's how most of the emphasize is done. And that's how second-hand parties at this time. I can't ask this question to every single place I go as a user. Can you make this jazzy? Okay. And I use a lot of broken words in my talks. Okay. Who gets offended just blows your ears. But certain things cannot be mentioned without those right, technical words. So what does that mean? Can you explain to me what does making something jazzy mean? Something like that. Blue, fucetia, green, red color. Make an application. I want you to consult for me because I have this application. I want that to be made jazzy. Because I was a flash guy earlier. I used to get put in all sorts of weird pictures because I'm actually the jazzy guy. I'm the one who spanned the monkey and the monkey jumps. And you win a laptop. So I have an answer to this. Do you want jazzy? Come to my post area. That's not design, buddy. You don't want to take an application and make it jazzy in the name of interaction design. I will come to certain points where how people make these jazzy and completely screw it up. And what color is your sidebar?  What color is your foot up? The first thing that comes to mind is how are you going to make the head up? How are you going to make the foot up? How are you going to make the sidebar? I am not going to make a head up put a sidebar. The design does not start there. So how do you have written an application with headers put as a sidebar? Please let me see the hands go up. Don't you at least get me to asking this left side sidebar is looking very asymmetrical. Why are you looking at the right side? Why? Then it looks like really symmetrical.  You would have. Why do you have to cut down things in headers, putters, and sidebars and actually talking to the side? See, this is a don't. If you want, if you have to create something with the head up and sidebar going, but that's not your start point, engineer specifically. Designers, excuse me, you wouldn't probably do this. But guys who actually that would have been designed. A typical program who does not have a designer to support them. The easiest way to do a project is actually creating a head up and a sidebar in it. Your manager would think you're actually starting work. Ain't it? Don't do that. That's not how you start writing applications for project safety. Content is being created. That's often right as this. The user can go screwing. The only clear one is the content. Like if I have my entire content got done later on to the page in whatever way, if nothing works, then you start working. Ain't it? What sort of work should we do? It's a browser feature. Who are you? I said don't work yourself. Right? So don't do that. So when you're actually building something out of content, your biggest benefit, the biggest challenge for you as a developer is to actually present the content and that's where the interaction design comes to place. How does a person interact with your content? It is not by putting it like an alipsy. It is not about putting it like an alipsy. Let me not get started. Why can't you follow very simple life steps in interactive design? Be simple. Be polite. Be available. Be responsive. These are things that you do in real life, right? You actually go and stand in a regular ticket booking counter. We will follow all the four. That's how you get a ticket. So let us look at a simple example of how a web page, a simple text on a web page can be simple and overly complex. By clicking on this checkpoints, you can remember your password. Option one. Remember me. Option two. Which one is nicer? The first one. Second one. Why is it nicer? Does it convey what it has to convey? Does it? It does, right? Be polite. Incorrect password. One alert. You like it? You do the incorrect password. I want all the signs there. Password? I was just trying to look at the software. Don't do the incorrect password.  I am not doing the right password now. Just say, if you forget your password, that was incredible. You want to try again? Be a little polite. Right? That helps. I'm speaking purely in terms of simple text that we put in the pages or web applications.  I am not talking about that. I am not talking about that. I am not talking about that. I am talking about simple light stuff that I did and how I found the web. Be available. What do you mean be available? I am telling you what is being available. It's not a high availability process. I am not telling you that. What is being available in terms of web? Canceling it, yes? It's not available. Well, it will be available to send. What do you mean? Well, it's actually a little profound process. Being available is something which we actually look at in a little detail where we actually speak about the principles of processing, principles of improving and so on. When you actually work on a page, you want stuff that you want to work with.  A classic example, I almost finished up it, but the site has always put in work. I asked you this. I want to put a pipeline to take the day morning. So, how do you do it? Anybody that's interested in this site? They are also going there. So, there is this interesting feature where you actually search for something. You can actually search and show a list of things and the top right you can actually show where this succeeds. Then you click that button to come down and click it. It's like a learning rabbit. I have to like be a PhD on the bridge to understand where to click what to do and that's why I actually put up the website. And finally, be responsive. You click a button that's for you. See, most of the times I don't believe that small if you broke the circle that many on the website show, right?   I think if you give a time out that's like the other page. If it's worth time out it's not time out because you put up very progress bar it's not going to time out everything is going to work. But put that got out the feedback that you actually the user actually gets responsive. Responses that's also another feature. Like, you know, you do something get something instantly in your feedback. Use it as a channel. Like, you know, do more stuff on the client. Like, you know, actually work on stuff that will actually work very quickly on the client. Can you tell me one physical metaphor that has been applied to be touched on the site? A simple one that you are very familiar with? Touch. Touch. Which one? Can't hear you, sir? No, sure. It's okay. No, I'm just asking what physical metaphors have you transferred? Thank you. Touch is one. Tongue button switches. Tongue button. Brilliant. What else? Canada? Canada? Canada? It's not a physical metaphor, but it's something physically. You're used to seeing dates in a calendar. But what is probably not useful is the stuff that I mentioned. Showing actually our analogue blog. I'm going to take off some. That's a busy metaphor. Right. You take to actually agree and you've crossed to the site. Good point. It's so nice to see that a young man sitting in a web conference. Awesome. So, part of the section is critical.  So, we've actually looked at this in a little bit of detail. Some examples that I wanted to let you respond. Swipe versus scroll. I want to open this out for an opinion generation. How many of you guys like to swipe visibly scroll? Who likes swipe? Brilliant answer. It depends on the application. Absolutely. But let's say it is definitely to go on. Would you like to swipe or would you like to scroll? It depends on the video. It depends on the video. Let's say it's a touch come, let's say it's a touch video. It's a swipe on this. So, so, right. So, this let me, this works for, I'm running OSX live. So, clearly to scroll here I swipe as well. I just flick my hand on this thing. Swipe. Swipe versus scroll. People are not flipping. Swipe. Why do you think it is preferred because it comes from something which we are so used to doing. See, instead of flipping like this, you flip a page like this, it gives a similar metaphor but it's actually much better translated. That's what I call reflection of human behavior. See, everybody likes to swipe. I'll just leave it like that for a person. Drive and drop versus double flip. Which would you flip off? One of that page. Drive and drop. Why? I won't ask why. What do you think double flip is faster? Double flip is faster than that. See, this is exactly what I wanted to do with this stuff. So, how many of us actually think you want to double flip as opposed to a drive and drop? I want to see the hands. How many of you think we'll drive and drop and not double flip? What do you have in mind? Drive and drop versus flip. Drive and drop versus speed is much better. Exactly. So, I see the point but why am I believing this is like speaking web in general. Like, you know, so this is where you actually start making decisions. I've come to two other points. So, like, you know, very appropriate because I think what he has called out in the last two answers is what you need to keep in mind. Because web technology is that you drive and drop. Or because certain technology allows you to drive or swipe. That is not the way that you drive. So, you need to evaluate what medium you are and what application are you building. Sometimes even, you know, sometimes I've seen people actually doing shopping cart applications with drive and drop. You can drive icons into a cart by swiping. I for running at a personal level, I would like to just click a button. Just a single click on an icon is actually much better. I actually have a demo which demonstrates what launch is this, right? Yeah, yeah. I don't know how it didn't go. Yeah, never mind. Slow versus patient with the auto scope. In context versus moda showing a dialogue box to tell you something versus showing it in proximity to the control that you're interacting with. Which one is better? Moda? Yes. Moda is always better? Right. Yeah. Again, not understanding the application that we've mentioned already. See, which one is better? I'm asking is just trying to understand what your answers are. How do you interact with this? I know that it is no direct specific application I'm glad but this talk is because I see seven people who do not think like that. See, I have seen a lot of people simply doing live talk because it's possible. That's the reason why I have this stuff. See, if you're actually going to come back and say and take the same stance that, you know, which one is something that we have to do? If we were back there wouldn't be so many bad applications on the internet. If we were all that very intelligent and positive about doing design. So don't fool me on that. We actually don't think that much. That's the reason I am. I'm not teaching anything technical here. I knew the risk of doing that and the contrast like this but I still played with it because I want to get the perspective of what the work teams are doing there. Right? So in context there is useful in certain situations but doing in context everywhere that's not good idea. That's why it is put as verses. Like you need to wave which direction that you want to take when you actually do see for example let's take a when you actually do a model when you want to I have seen several instances where warnings are shown as model dialogues. The day before yesterday I was building an application for a client of mine that I went as a consultant. They were actually showing all their warnings as model dialogues simply saying that that is our architecture. We have with this great interface intelligent system where everything has been extracted away into a pop up and then you start doing it. Right? So verbose versus concise not always right? Consize for like a forgot password icon verbose for instruction but what really happens is somebody follows a verbose pattern they don't even think about it they actually put verbose all across right now for the simplest simple things we actually have yellow colored boxes with a lot of text going in here have you seen that? See it is actually an interaction it's job to actually build an interface which has actually got combinations verbose versus concise descriptions graphic elements sometimes you need a button with just an icon sometimes you need a button with icon and text right? See what what I commonly see is that it is always an icon with text because somebody is going to walk up to you and say that I don't understand what this icon is So where is that balance coming you need to actually see the balance you see the interface applications here interface apps people who actually build background software the internal software and things like that two people I have a question for you sir isn't this a common challenge that you face? yeah because because you as a designer the designer might want to build a combination of infographics and icons and things like that but you have a small real estate to actually convey a lot more information that is the place where you need to actually sit back and think how we are going to do your design in terms of those design aspects and where you are going to be in your concise design aspects sometimes the tooltips are going to be like yeah so tooltips is one way of doing it actually moving up again tooltips are a big problem in touch devices because they don't really have an internet mouse over activity so something to keep in mind instruction versus suggestion shouldn't you like suggestions that we like suggestions but sometimes you have to instruct sometimes you have to suggest are you thinking that way or are you thinking about the suggestion have you been thinking about that way many of us have not been and we actually do a mixture of both we actually instruct at a place where we actually have to suggest and we actually suggest at a place there we need to instruct so that is something you need to think panic versus reactions always reactions when you panic your credit card has failed is panic you cannot get credit card you actually put a panic notion correct you have to say your payment did not go to something important for something like if you complete your password would you panic you wouldn't look like you forgot your password and relation that way right so you talk just about the things there are visual ways of showing panic and visual ways of showing reactions say visual way of showing panic is actually showing an alarm board how do you how do you do reactions how do you how do you react to a person that is actually not doing anything right colors colors are beyond colors are going to be this is not the thing I am talking about the word would you actually do options would you actually bring in relevant contacts that would help them actually overcome problems would you force your face is very helpful no no so panic versus reaction is an interesting interaction design challenge finally in the enterprise applications because enterprise applications have complex workflows and most of the time is what I get back anybody uses something called conquer conquer it is this is that a panic driven website every single error will actually increase severe panic something terribly went wrong this is an error I am actually not right so it fails in the context that the design of the interaction has failed to capture the user in terms of what he really has to do all I know is I have to panic now I really don't know how to fix it so sometimes in situations where you have to absolutely panic panic but most of the situation can be solved by reassuring the user in terms of what he needs to do when he has actually circumvented a real workflow find this on your face works when you are actually setting the most sober advertisement on a web page see for example Adobe tried it and because they have a strong brand name called it's one of both real white and red actually works but if it is subtle and on your face is actually a huge debated interaction design system how do you design a interface would you do dark on light or light on dark how much is the light on dark dark on light majority of the world prefer dark on light so I was part of a project called the Adobe media player a long time ago I was the promotion on dark of dark which I was the designer and the other prefer and we built a light on dark application which of course did not resonate with the people who actually watch videos even though Windows media player is a white on dark application which a lot more people do so color scheming and on building your right on types of building your contents of building a typography you need to have a concept preset you cannot have an application which has got auto-model contrast between subtle and on-the-face you can actually taking a something too on-the-face approach you actually have to create you cannot have two different aspects of the same application you bother your business requirements this is something which you need to consider why you are doing this so don't think that I am going to build a white and again the enterprise white and blue is the color scheme most of the times so it is a very safe option so we want to have said white and blue right like now with Facebook also concept is pretty authorized that white and blue in my principles of grouping anybody know about this this anybody studied this context proximity similarity and common fate are the most common ones applicable now more these are the most common ones applicable to doing interaction proximity is actually grouping things that are similar to each other together by naturally perceives the related actions together but these things right this could be a combination of different actions but then they are put in close proximity they make sense while similarity is grouping similar things together what is between the proximity and similarity is very small very small but a very important difference see proximity a good example of proximity is if I click this and I show a tool bar right next to it which has got everything pertaining to styling this that's an example of proximity see everything that is put together while similarity is a set of similar things like you know it could be a a combination of things which can actually come together and what is common fate common fate is applied in animations like when you actually swipe something when you actually transition from one view to another in an android application the whole ui slides past and a new ui comes in this can be compared to you don't perceive it as one word flying view when you actually see a two-speed approach you'll actually perceive it as a group motion like a fleet the same way if you're actually doing motion you actually need to be careful in terms of how you're perceiving or creating that motion something which flash developers the bad ones made a huge mess out they had general flying elements on speed like because animation was possible things used to randomly fly around I have an example of that so that is a place where you actually sit back and you want to use motion animation you need to think and actually have a common field situation to be able to use it sorry I don't have a screen so I don't know what it is talking about movement has been only in common field situations otherwise movement is typically annoying see generally things bouncing around or jumping around is annoying and the technology which I used to represent earlier the technology called Adobe Flash I used to be a evangelist in the global world because there was completely thoughtless mindless use of animations and movement which then it did not have a real common field something to keep in mind thin line between meaning annoyances transitioning use and skip filter of annoyances the first one means main second one is pure annoyances so again going back to my first point of making a jazzy most of people actually throw animations even today I was actually animation running on a web page before yesterday because it was considered jazzy don't do that bad design and bad technology are bad design and bad engineering are technology masters you can create bad shit with anything so please remember that you are actually doing something you are actually doing something and you are actually creating shit it probably means that you are sort of doing something like ridiculously bad and after you have fixed all that go back and slowly and slowly my transitions are so bad have you actually looked at your backside have you have you reflected when you come out of a quicker bootstrap when you come out of a micro frame and say it's really slow it might be slow but have you evaluated your part of it in terms of have you designed it right have you programmed it right and here is an example of an exhibit A this is an HTML5 application cleaning edge now is this looking terrible because of HTML5 so there HTMLDropper.com go and check it it's actually a brilliant example and the more bigger you should suspect it's a slash it's an example of how you should not go inside isn't it right so I am sort of short in time let me quickly move I have to get how to take questions I have two demos you can find me also I can show them the demos but I can take questions you can take questions I have a question how do you handle desperate customers because when it comes people are very desperate to use your particular service they wouldn't mind they wouldn't really you know care about the design buy and place the button or anything the button won't really mean anything they are not desperate how do you deal with that after he's finished with his work I'll show you that's right because it is people like that who actually completely sanitize and sanitize by design because I'm so desperate you throw shit at me and you shit the point is the moment the user gets more discerning he actually gets really better software the whole business why do you have bad software or bad strategy design is because the user is desperate I ask you to see right example I am desperate I need to go to my buy and place buy and place minding I need to buy a ticket whatever shit they are throwing I'm going to take it so I don't want to handle them I actually want to trade them or ship them any other questions yeah since this I just wanted to ask you and everyone do you think there is a certain thing called good design and they will have you come across like there will be things that you are the designer who will completely understand and people don't take it and maybe it's the purpose of design to be intrinsically understood by everyone but I in my career have you come across something like that did you come across my handling no I haven't any of the other people this question is have you ever come to see a design which you would intrinsically call great design like is that what the question is yes every time you design there are a set of people who agree there are a set of people who are design some people like some people like see it as a common consensus so I don't believe there is 100% consensus I don't believe there is but this is from my experience as a person who was built in classic situations of design looking at that software I've actually built custom customary old fashioned 90s style that software my work was to actually bring them to actually give them a little bit of color I think this I created see nine out of ten designs I actually thought were great I think all my designs are great that's what every design thinks otherwise you don't have to design that but nine out of ten how actually being failures with respect to the person to the samples I collect right but what I realize a specific audience that you're going after no software is extremely democratic like every software has its audience so if your audience doesn't understand the points of the audience you will actually arrive at something which is better than most of the functional ones and still at that 80% that is my dream but if you ask me is there a perfect design that somebody is not a company that's on I am not the policy expert to comment on that so I actually I sign on things in the room I'll be happy if somebody can actually take the question so my unless you build it for a single person there's never going to be 100% theoretically I wouldn't have you yes I have a question or you want to answer yeah we characterize our audience we identify the characters which are our audience and then we recognize the situation the situation is better than most of the everything is there in place but you design you know but eventually and the Personas are always hypothesis yeah see personas are a belief of a person see personas are nothing against personas every development project has a persona allocations but with your experience you have realized that personas are not a hypothesis so in your persona phase the easiest experience is just saying my persona was wrong I think the main of the questions are simple the small world of flipping over here is the impressions it's a tool that I built which is our visual authoring through impressions you can actually go check it's also it's something like you don't write a lot of HTML JavaScript CSS to build impressions okay hang on my next I'm going to show you my coordinates so that's my coordinates I like what has to use is dollar leverage of charge isn't that what you guys use I like that one so beer is my leverage of charge so anybody who wants to hang on virtually that's what I'm on Twitter I have a bunch of projects on Jitha mostly on development standards and another shameless plug before you guys go away after lunch I have a talk over here which is not an opinion talk it's a technical talk I'm trying to cover Canvas and SVT case-to-case and C which you actually go by building if interested please come back here and see you guys have a nice lunch thank you


and that kind of stuff. But you're also an entrepreneur, right? And you know the business. You've been in software, you do tech business. You know, on Shark Tank, you get a lot of pitches as entertainment meets business. On our show, we're a bubble. We don't do a lot of tech deals that we're talking because it's boring TV. Tech people love tech. Consumers love the benefit of tech.  What's it been like being on the Shark Tank? You know, filming is fun and hanging out is fun and it's fun to be a celebrity at first.  Who says tech has got a little pizzazz? I mean, it's a good day for us. In charge of his destiny. You've been trained. You guys are exciting. Robert Rashidek. No. Dancing with stars, of course. He's a huge alumni. Welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of AWS Public Sector Summit. I'm John Furrier, your host of theCUBE. Got a great segment here on health care, startup accelerators. Of course, Sandy Carter is co-hosting with you in this one. Vice President of AWS. She's awesome on theCUBE. And Jennifer Blumenthal, co-founder and CEO of One Record. Entrepreneur, very successful. Thanks for coming on. Jennifer, good to see you, Sandy. Thanks for joining me again. You are most welcome. So Jennifer, before we get into the whole accelerated dynamic, just take a minute to explain what you guys do at One Record. Sure. So One Record is a digital health company that enables users to access, aggregate, and share their health care information. So what that means is we help you as a person to get your data. And then we also help companies who would like to have workflows where consumers in the loop to get their data. So whether they're sharing it with a provider, researcher, payer. So Sandy, we've talked about this Amazon Web Services health care accelerator, cohort batches. What do you call them, cohorts? Batches? Yeah, cohorts. Explain what's going on with the health care accelerator. Yeah, so we decided that we would launch and partner an accelerator program. An accelerator program just provides to a startup a little bit extra technical help, a little bit extra subject matter expertise, and introductions to funders. And so we decided we were going to start one for health care. It's one of the biggest disruptive industries in the public sector. And so we weren't sure how it was going to go. We partnered with KidsX. KidsX is part of the Los Angeles system for medical. And so we put out a call for startups. And we had 427 startups. We were told on average an accelerator gets 52 to 100. So we were blown away 31 different countries. So it was really amazing. And then what we've been doing is down selecting and selecting that top 10 for our first cohort. So we're going from 427 down to 10. And so obviously we looked at the founders themselves to see the quality of the leadership of the company, the strength of their technology, and the fit of the technology into the broader overall health care and health care ecosystem. And so we were thrilled that Jennifer and Juan record was one of the top 10 startups in this space that we chose to be in the cohort. And so now we're going to take it to the six-week intensive, where we'll do training, helping them with AWS, provide them AWS credits. And then KidsX will also provide some of the health care subject matter expertise as well. Can I get some of those credits over here, too? Maybe some things? Yes, you can actually. You come talk to me, John. You come talk to me. Jennifer, I got to ask you, so you're an entrepreneur. So doing companies is like a rollercoaster. So now to make the top 10, but also being the AWS accelerator, it's a partnership, right? You're making a bet. What's your take on all this? Well, we've always been partners with AWS. We started building on AWS in the very beginning. So when I was setting up the company, a huge decision early on was infrastructure. And when I saw the launch of the accelerator, I had to apply because we're at the point in the company that we're growing and part of growing is growing with the AWS. So I was really excited to take advantage of that opportunity. And now in the accelerator, it's more of thinking about things that we weren't thinking about. So services that we can leverage to fill in the gaps within our platform so we can meet our customers where they are. Yeah, and you're using an award-winning MSP, Cloud Staticity. They're your partners. Great relationship with all ecosystems. So congratulations, Sandy. What's the disruption for the healthcare? Because right now, education and healthcare, the two top areas we're seeing and we're reporting on where cloud-scale, DevOps 2.0, whatever buzzword digital transformation you want to use is impacting heavily the healthcare industry. There's some new realities. What's your vision and what's your view? Hey, John, before she does that, I have to give a plug to Cloudicity because they just made Premier Partner as well, which is a huge deal, and they're also serving public sector. So I just wanted to make sure that you knew that too so you could congratulate. Go ahead, Jennifer. Well, so if I zoom in, I think about APIs every day. That's what I think about and I think about microservices. So for me and for one record, what we think about is legislation. So 21st Century Cures Act says that you, as a consumer, have to be able to access your healthcare data from both your providers and from your payers. And not just your providers, but also the underlying technology vendors and HIEs, HIMs, and it's probably going to extend to really anyone who plays within the healthcare ecosystem. So you're just going to see this explosion of APIs and we're just in, you're one of that. I mean, for the payers, the rule went into effect on July 1st. So I mean, when you think about the decentralization of healthcare, where healthcare is being delivered, plus an API economy, you're just going to have a whole new model developing and then growing price transparency and you got a whole new cake. You know, I'm smiling because I love the API conversations. In fact, last night I shouldn't have tweeted this, but I was a little tweet flames going on around APIs, being brittle and all this stuff. And I said, hey, developer experience about building great software. APIs are there for you. It's not a glue layer by itself. You've got to build software around the API. So kind of a little preaching to the younger generation, but this healthcare thing is huge because think about like old school healthcare. It was anti-API, it was also siloed. So what's your take on how the culture is changing in healthcare because the user experience, I want my records, I want my privacy, I want to maintain everything confidential, but access. That's hard. I think, well, healthcare to me used to just be paper. It wasn't, forget about APIs. It was just paper records. I think to me, you think about a patient journey, like a patient journey starts with booking an appointment and then everything after that is essentially an API call. So that's how I think about it. It's all these microtransactions that are happening all the time. And you want your data to go to your healthcare provider so they can give you the proper care. You want your data to go to your payer so they can pay for your care. And then those two stakeholders want your data so that they can provide the right services at the right time to the right channel. And that is just a series of API calls that literally sits on a platform. What's interesting, I'd love to get your take on them. Where you think the progress bar is in the industry because FinTech has shown the way. You got DeFi now behind it, Decentralized Finance. Healthcare seems to be moving on a very accelerated rate towards that kind of concept of cloud scale, decentralization, privacy. Yeah, I mean, that's a big question. What's interesting to me around that is how healthcare stakeholders are thinking about where they're providing care. So as they're buying up practices, primary care, specialty care, and they're moving more and more outside of the brick and mortar of their healthcare system or partnering with new startups, that's really where I think you're gonna see the larger ecosystem develop. And you could just look at CVS and Walmart or the dollar store, if they're gonna be moving into healthcare, what does that look like? And then if you're seeking care in those settings, but then you're going to Mayo Clinic or Kaiser Permanente, there's so many new relationships that are part of your care circle. Delivery is just, what does that even mean now? Delivery of healthcare. It's wherever you, it's like the app economy. You want to ride right now, you want to doctor right now, that's where we're heading, it's ease of use. Isn't this exciting? Startups, changing the game. Yes. I love it. I mean, this is what it's all about, this healthcare. This is what it's all about. And if you look at the funding right now from VCs, we're seeing so much funding pour into healthcare. We were just looking at some numbers and in the second quarter alone, the funding went up almost 700% and the amount of funding that's pouring into companies like Jennifer's company to really transform healthcare. 30% of it is going into telehealth. So when you talked about kind of AI at the edge, getting the right doctor or the right expert at the right time, we're seeing that as a big trend in healthcare too. Well Jennifer, I think the funding dynamics aside, the opportunity for market, total addressable markets, massive when the application is being decomposed. You got front end, whether it's telemedicine, you got the different building blocks of healthcare being radically reconfigured. It's a refactoring of healthcare. Yeah, I think if you just think about where we're sitting today, you had to use an app to prove a vaccination. So this is not just national, this is a global thing to have that COVID wallet. We at one record have a COVID wallet, but just think a couple of years from now, I need more than just my COVID vaccination. I need all my vaccinations. I need all my lab results. I need all my beds. It's opening the door for a new consumer behavior pattern, which is the first step to adoption for any technology. So if someone asks you, I need that COVID wallet, don't you? I need that. There was California did a version of it. We just have a pen in, it's pretty cool, very handy. I should save it to my drive, but my phone, but I don't. Jennifer, what's the coolest thing you're working on right now? Because you're in the middle of all the action. I get very excited about the payer APIs that we're working on. So I think by the end of the month, we will be connected to almost every, to all the blues in the United States. So I'm very excited when a user comes into the one record and they're able to get their clinical data from their provider organization, and then their clinical financial and formulary data from their payers. Cause then you're getting a complete view. You're getting the records for someone who gave you care and you're getting the records from someone who paid for your care. And that's an interesting thing. That's really moving towards a complete picture. So from a personal perspective, that gets exciting. And then from a professional perspective, it's really working with our partners as they're using our APIs to build out workflows and their applications. It's an API economy and I allowed to ask you to, on the impact side, to the patient, I hear a lot of people complaining that, hey, I want to bring my records to the doctor and I want to have my own control of my own stuff. And a lot of times some doctors don't even know other historical data points about a patient that could open up diagnosis and or care. Or they can't even refer you to a doctor. Most doctors really only refer within a network of people that they know. Having a provider directory that allows doctors to refer, having the data from different doctors outside of their IDN really allows people to start thinking beyond just their little box. Cool, well great to have you on and congratulations on being in the top 10. Stain, this is a wonderful example of how the ecosystem is working. You've got Cloud Dicity or MSP, you mentioned a shout out to them, Jerry Miller and his team. But working together, the cloud gives you advantages. So I have to ask, we look at Amazon, the cloud, as an entrepreneur, it's kind of a loaded question, but I got to ask it, I love it as well. You always do it. When you look at Amazon, what do you see as opportunity as an entrepreneur? Because obviously the easy one is they have compute and everything else, but what does cloud do for you as an entrepreneur? What does it make you do? Yeah, so been working with Jerry since the beginning, for me, when I think about it, it's really the growth of our company. So when we started building, we were really just thinking about it from a monolithic field and we moved to microservices and Amazon's been there every step of the way to support us as that. And now, the things that I'm interested in are specifically HealthLake and anything that's NLP related that we could plug into our solution for when we get data from different sources that are coming in really unstructured formats and making it structured so that it's searchable for people. And Amazon does that for us with their services that we can add into the applications. Yeah, we announced that data HealthLake in July and has a whole set of templates for analytics focused on healthcare as well as HIPAA compliance out of the box as well. The thing I think that's most important is people used to think application first, now it's creating essentially a data lake than analytics and then what applications you build on top of that. And that's how our partners think about it and that's how we try and service them using Amazon as our cloud provider. And so you're just honing in the value of the data and how that can flex and then work within the, whatever application requests might come in. It's interesting, we had an event last month and Jerry Chen from Greylock Partners came on and gave a talk called Castles in the Cloud. He's been on the queue before. He's a VC, they talk about moats and competitive manage. So having a moat, the old school perimeter, moats, how the cloud destroyed that. He's like, no, now the castles are in the cloud. And he pointed at Snowflake, basically data warehouse in the cloud. Redshift's there too, but they can be successful. And that how the cloud, you could actually build value, sustainable value in the cloud if you think that way of refactoring, not just hosting. Huge, huge thing, huge, huge thing. I think the only thing he missed was customer service because healthcare is still very personal. So it's always about how you interact with the end user and how you can help get to where they need to be going. Yeah, and what do you see that going? Because that is a good point. Ooh, I think that is a huge opportunity for any new company that wants to enter healthcare. Customer service as a service in healthcare for all the different places that healthcare is going to be delivered. I maybe there's a company that I don't know about, but when they come out, I'd like to meet them. Yeah, I mean, I can't think of one company that I could think of right now that says that I would stay as great customer service for healthcare. But if there is one out there, contact me because I have long to talk to you about AWS. Yeah, and you need the APIs from one record to make it all happen. That's right, you got it. An omnichannel customer service across all healthcare entities, that's something. Yeah, that's cool. It's a great billion dollar idea for someone listening to our show right now, right? All right, so seeing how to give you the opportunity to talk more, because this is a great example of how the world's very agile. What's the next step for the AWS healthcare accelerator? Are there more accelerators? Do you do it by vertical? What happens next? Yeah, so with the healthcare accelerator, this was our first go at the accelerator. So this is our first set of cohorts. Of course, all 427 companies are going to get some help from AWS as well. You'll love this, John. We also did a space accelerator. Make sure you ask Clint about that. So we have startups that are synthesizing oxygen on Mars to sending an outpost box to the moon.  And then the third accelerator we started was around clean energy, so sustainability. We sold that one out too. We had folks from 66 different countries participate in that one. So these have been really successful for us. So at Reinvent, when we talk again, we'll be announcing a couple others. So right now we've got healthcare space, clean energy, and we'll be announcing a couple other accelerators moving forward. You know, it's interesting, Jennifer, the pandemic has changed even our ability to get stories, just more stories out there now. So you're seeing kind of remote hybrid connections, APIs, whether it's software or, you know, remote interviews or remote connections. There's more stories being told out there with digital transformation. I mean, there wasn't just that many before. Pandemic has changed the landscape because let's face it, some people were hiding some really bad projects behind metrics. But when you pull the pandemic back and you go, hey, everyone's kind of, emperor's got no clothes on. Those are bad projects. Those are good projects that cloud investment works. Or I didn't have a cloud investment. They were pretty much screwed at that point. So this is now a new reality of like value. You can't show me value. It's crazy to me when I meet people who tell me, they're like, we want to move to the cloud. I'm like, why are you not on the cloud? Like, this really just blows my mind. Like, I don't understand why you have on-prem or why you didn't start on the cloud. This is for larger organizations. But younger organizations, you know, the first thing you have to do is set up that environment. Yeah, and then now with the migration plans and seeing here, whereas education or healthcare or other verticals, you got now you got containers to give you that compatibility.  I mean, come on, that's the perfect store of innovation. There's no excuses in my opinion.  That's not my philosophy, but thank you for coming up. Thank you. Okay, Sandy, thank you. Thank you, John. Okay, any of this coverage here, any of this summit here in DC, I'm John Furrier, thanks for watching. The software and technology industry for over 12 years now. So I've had the opportunity.


Well, an appeals court has ruled the so-called pregnant man who's from Arizona can get a divorce. The judges said that Thomas Beatty's marriage to Nancy Beatty in Hawaii in 2003 is considered valid in Arizona and is not a same-sex union. Last year, a lower court denied Thomas's divorce request because of Arizona's ban on same-sex marriage.