As-salamu alaikum wa rahmatullahu wa barakatuhu dearest respective viewers and welcome to live in London. Many of you have been commemorating the 10 days of Muharram and be commemorating the tragic death of Imam Hussain Ibn Ali and his companions. Many of you would have been going to Majalis, listening to talks online, probably getting involved with the Majalis, the setups, the organizations, and also getting involved with marches and also the Azab. Insha'Allah may Allah SWT accept your Amal and also your Hajat. But does the tragedy of Karbala stop in Karbala? Does it all end? The legacy of Hussain, does it end with Imam Hussain's death? And what about those who are captured and taken captive? What happened to them? What happened to Imam Sajad? If they were taken captive, where did they go? Who did they meet along the way? My guest with me is Sayyid Dr. Ahmad Nakshawani. Sayyid, salamu alaikum wa rahmatullahu wa barakatuhu. Wa alaikum wa rahmatullahu wa barakatuhu. How are you? Alhamdulillah, very well, thank you, very well. Before we begin, I would like to take this opportunity to thank the Sayyid for coming because he has traveled very far and has been very, very busy this Muharram. And also for the viewers, if you have any questions or if you'd like to comment on your Muharram experience on Ashura, please contact us on 0203 515 0199 and call in. Also, the WhatsApp number will be on the lower third below and you can contact us there as well. Sayyidna, how was Toronto? Yeah, Alhamdulillah, Toronto was fantastic. I lectured for the Afghani community. Mashallah. And they were a fantastic community. Although, you know, with Majalis these days, it becomes a cosmopolitan film with everybody coming from far and wide. But Alhamdulillah, it was brilliant. And I, you know, you hope Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala accepts our deeds in this holy month. So you, as a speaker, I mean, Muharram must be a very, very busy time for you. So how do you actually prepare for these 10 nights? How do you, what do you expect? And how do you actually go about delivering a good message? Well, expect the unexpected, as I saw this year in night six of Muharram, when 10 minutes into my lecture on Islamophobia, the, you know, the power just cut off in the mosque. So, you know, you've prepared this lecture for a year. You're ready to give it. And then all of a sudden, you know, subhanallah, you realize there's only one great planner. And that's Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala. The atmosphere that night in the mosque was fantastic atmosphere. I'll never forget it. Everybody was in unison in that period of patience where we were waiting for that electricity and so on to come back. Well, Alhamdulillah, you know, the people were hospitable. The Canadians at large, you know, were very receptive. There was a great energy in the Majalis. So Alhamdulillah, it's a great feeling. Seventeenth Muharram for me. Seventeenth year I'm reciting Majalis. So Alhamdulillah, it's a great blessing. So for you, obviously the 10 days are the most busy days for you. But do you feel that it's just those 10 days? And then do you feel our community kind of take their foot off the pedal a little bit? Or 10 days of Muharram are sure that comes. That's it. You know, until next year, see you guys later. Well, the Indian Pakistani community certainly don't take their foot off the pedal. You'll see that they have they have Majalis sometimes for 60, 65 days in a row, which is, you know, something very spectacular. Naturally, the first 10 days are going to draw the crowds because you're leading up to the 10th of Muharram. You're leading up to this monumental day. But I've seen communities around the world who have, you know, speakers coming for 10 nights, six, seven, you know, 10 nights of sessions in a row and then from different cultures and different backgrounds. And yes, there are certain people you may see them on the 10th of Muharram and never see them again till the next 10th of Muharram. But who are we to judge at the end of the day? We hope that this Muharram had a profound effect on them and that hopefully in the near future, they'll continue to attend the other Majalis because I think the period between Muharram, Safar and until the Holy month of Ramadan, you've still got, for example, the Shahada of Fatwa Al-Zahra, the Wilaada of Imam Ali, of Imam Al-Hussein, the Shahada of the Prophet, the Shahada of Imam Al-Hassan. So there's still many wonderful occasions in which a person is able to recharge their batteries. I say it literally because I think what people don't realize is that the Wilaada and the Shahada of Ahlul Bayt, Alaym Al-Salam, are opportunities for a person to be able to, you know, spiritually grow. If you're only going to turn up in Muharram and Shahar Ramadan, in the same way your phone battery dies, then you look for a charger.  Do you feel that during Muharram time, maybe the battery gets too charged and that's why they're not coming back to continue the commemorations and such? No, I think I can appreciate that there are people out there. They got commitments at school, commitment at work. I know people who were travelling one and a half, two hours from their universities, come and listen. There were families who were travelling a few hours, come and listen. Now you can only do that so much. There are people who have, you know, children at home, school days and so on. So you can appreciate that it can be somewhat difficult for some people. But yes, you've got Imam Zayn al-Abdin, Shahad are coming up. You've got, you know, Bibi Sukayna, you've got, for example, the Arba'een. So there's a number of occasions coming up in which a person should try and make the most of. Coming on to that point, do you feel that because of the following dates and occasions that are coming up, like you said, the death of Sayyid Imam Sujaad, the death of Sayyid al-Rukaiya, Arba'een, this is why a lot of people would continue to stay in that morning and grieving state. Or do you think that, you know, you don't have to continue that state.  Well, I think it should be a healthy balance.  Yeah, I know that there are certain people who will say that things have to stop and moharam or things have to stop and suffer or things have to change. And yes, naturally, it's a period of mourning for the Ahdal Bayt. And Imam Al-Radha says to his companion, you know, if it's your desire to be with us on the highest levels in heaven, then be happy on our days of happiness and be sad on our days of sadness. So naturally, there is this feeling that should be there. Moharam al-Safar are very sad months in the memories of Ahal Muhammad. Salawatullah was-salamu alayhim. And I think people's lives should not stop, but not should a person completely forget what's happening. You know, after the 10th of moharam is really when Zaynab's story begins and really when the tragedy begins once again, you know. And I think if a person reflected and knew what took place after the 10th of moharam, they'll realize why we shouldn't stop mourning just on the 10th. Do you think that also because I've looked at the calendar as well and until Arba'een, there is no days of celebration. So in a way, it will set out for you to continue mourning and continue to grieve on that note as well. Do you think that a lot of people say that we can't, you know, marry, make, maybe can't go out to a restaurant to eat or watch a movie in the cinema, things you do, you know, to enjoy yourself? There's nothing, you know, which has prohibited in these things. But once again, it's the feeling of empathy and you're Tawalla towards al-Muhammad, Salawatullah, if you love the family of the Prophet, peace be upon him, then you're going to try your hardest to make sure that on their days of sadness, you're in a state of sadness as well. That doesn't mean that you take it out on everybody. I've seen some people, they'll tell everybody, oh, you can't do this, you can't do that. Let everybody do what they've got to do. You focus on your own relationship with Ahlul Bayt, that person who might be going out may have been you five years ago. So try and focus on your relationship with Ahlul Bayt in this period. But certainly, certainly, if you're sitting in your friend's circle, it should not be a case that Ashura finished and that's it. You don't discuss what's happening to Ahlul Bayt, alayhum salam, we're now in the period coming up to the 15, 16, 17th of Muharram. These are harrowing times for Sayyid al-Zaynab, alayhum salam and the rest of the daughters of Rasulullah, alayhum salam. So therefore, we should try and reflect on what took place and try and discuss it with our friend's circle. Yeah. Yeah. And talking about the events of Karbala and talking about what happened to Abab al-Dilal, Sayyid. I mean, a lot of people, they remember that, oh, he died on the plains of Karbala and was beheaded. But a lot took place after that as well. I mean, could you explain from the moments of his, I mean, just after he was beheaded unfortunately, and may Allah grant him peace. What happened after that? Well, Imam al-Hussain, alayhi salam, dies an hour before Maghrib on the 10th of Muharram in the 61st year after Hijrah. What happens after that is something quite incredible, sad, disturbing, that a Muslim could reach such lows. Omar ibn Sa'ad ibn Abi Waqas was the commander of the armed forces of the opposition. The first thing he decides to do is to get 10 horse riders together. Allah, Allah. And he asks the horse riders to sharpen the hooves of their horses and then to go and dig their hooves into the body of the grandson of Rasulullah, sallallahu alaihi wa alaikum. There are many Muslims out there who know that Imam al-Hussain was killed, was beheaded, but they don't know that that insult that was added to injury. Where the Arabs would never ever humiliate a dead body in this way. And yet you find in the sacred month of Muharram, in the Quran we read Al-Ashhur Al-Huram. There are four sacred months the Arabs used to not find. Right here. Muharram, Rajab, Al-Qaeda and Al-Hijjah. And that's sacred month. Not only had they taken the sanctity of the month, but the sanctity of the body of the grandson of the man who bought them the religion. You find that Umar ibn Sa'ad purposely wants to humiliate him. And so the horses begin to kick his body around the plains of Karbala. One poet says in a wonderful piece of poetry, which martyr did the sun burn his body? And it was because of his light that that sun was created. And Hadith Al-Qasar, I did not create the heavens or the earth or the sun, but four, these five. Ascent. Which martyr did the horses trample on his body? Those same horses used to receive their honor and used to shiver when they used to hear his name. If only those horses knew, listen to how the poet now makes his name, he would not have been able to hear his name. If only those horses knew, listen to how the poet now makes this wonderful. If only those horses knew, it was actually Muhammad's body they were trampling on. Because Hussain is from me and I am from Hussain. Rasulullah says Hussain is from me. If only those horses knew it was whose body? Rasulullah's body, because that's the flesh of your prophet on the ground. True. They began to kick his body so much, that if you go to Karbala today, where Imam al-Hussain is buried is about a certain number of yards from where he was beheaded. That's how much the horses kicked the body. Some of the army of Umar bin Sa'ad knew that there may have been certain things Imam al-Hussain had that they wanted. For example, one of them saw the ring of Rasulullah on the finger of Imam al-Hussain, alaihi s-salam. So he went up to the finger of the Imam and he tried to take the ring out, couldn't so he chopped the finger off. Oh my God. Others came and tried to rip the shirt which Zaynab had given him as an Amana from his mother Fatima al-Zahra, alaihi s-salam. You know in the famous line, when he came out of the tent and she started when he came out of the tent and she started and she turned around to Medina just before he died and said, mother Fatima, this is your Amana. That shirt they attacked, but then even worse than that, with all of this that took place, they then ordered that the tents of the granddaughters of the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, his family were to be burned. Today, when I see the Jordanian pilot who was burnt by ISIS, you see many Muslims in the world saying this is disgusting, this is despicable. How could this happen? How about the granddaughters of the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon his family? Do you know how many Muslims out there don't know the names of the granddaughters of the Prophet Muhammad? If you were to ask them, do you know Zaynab and Um Kulthum, the granddaughters? Don't tell me about daughters or the granddaughters. Any of the great granddaughters, do you know any of that? Many Muslims out there don't have a clue. What happened to the grandchildren of the man that in their Radaan they say, Ashadu anna Muhammadan, Rasulallah. Omar bin Sa'ad and Shimmer bin Diljaushan ordered that the tents of the women of Ahlul Bayt were to be burned. Can you imagine? Some of these ladies have lost their babies, some have lost their children, some have lost their husbands, some have lost their brothers. And now the one tent that was a sanctuary for them is now burnt. And when that tent was burned, Sayyida Zaynab, alaihi salam, the granddaughter of the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon his family, is remarkable in what really one may argue is that when Karbala ended Zaynab began, that there's this lady, heroic, her leadership, her bravery that when she sees these girls being trampled upon, when she sees these girls have their dresses on fire, she would rather have herself burnt than these daughters of the Holy Prophet, peace be upon him and his family. And that's why you find that the narrations, what did they mention to us? Hamid bin Muslim was one of the narrators. Yazid, while the caliph of the Islamic empire, Yazid had hired certain journalists. Amongst them was Hamid bin Muslim. These journalists, their role was to narrate what was happening in Karbala. Hamid bin Muslim narrates, he says, I saw a young girl running and her dress was on fire. So I felt sorry for her. I had some water, I came up to her. I said, here, take the water. She looked at me and she said, oh man, are you with us or are you against us? And he turned around and said, I'm neither with you nor am I against you. And she looked at him and she said, how could you give me water? While my father, Abba Abdullah, lay there on the ground in Karbala, thirsty. At that moment she said to him, have you read the Quran? He said to her, yes. She said, you've read the ayah of Amal Yatima, ask for the orphan, don't hurt the orphan. He said, yes, I have. She said, I'm the orphan of Imam al-Husayn. Then she said to him, have you read the ayah in the Quran? When someone asks you, don't reject the question. He said, yes, I know the ayah. She said, can you point me to the land of Najaf? Last night, my aunt Zaynab told me that my grandfather is buried in that land. I want to complain to him about the way that we've been treated in this land. The Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him and his family, worked tirelessly to ensure that the Arabs would receive the revelation of the Lord. 50 years after he dies, his family have their tents being burnt.  Come and look at the houses of your daughters. One daughter running from one director to another. Now, what you also had that night is some of the mothers who've lost their children. It's a very difficult moment for them. Amongst them was Rabab, who had lost the six month old baby. Zaynab, peace be upon him, has narrated that she, on the night of the 11th of looking around, she can't find Rabab. Until she looks out into the wilderness and she sees Rabab. Rabab, what are you doing? She's like, I want to see my baby. I want to try and quench the thirst of my baby. Then there are the wives of some of the personalities in the army of Al-Hussein, such as Daylam, the wife of Zuhair ibn al-Qayn. Daylam, the wife of Zuhair ibn al-Qayn, night of the 11th of Muharram, something strikes her. Now imagine, this is all happening within a space of a few hours. You've got Imam al-Hussein's body has been trampled on. You've got Sayyid al-Zaynab, peace be upon him, having tents trying to protect his children. And I remember Imam al-Sadiq, peace be upon him, remembers that one day when he had a fire in his house, he was trying to save his daughters. The next day, one of his companions saw me crying and crying. Said Imam al-Sadiq, why are you crying so much? He said, when I saw my daughters running from one side of the house to the other, escaping the fire, I remembered Sayyid al-Zaynab, peace be upon him, and what she went through with the children. You think that when Imam al-Hussein, peace be upon him, was beheaded, that was it? These were the most barbaric personalities. They wanted to exterminate the Prophet Muhammad's message and family. And you find that Daylam sees her servant and she says to her servant, here's a piece of cloth. Go out into the battlefield, look for my husband, Zuhair's body, and cover him. It's a wife, she earns for her husband. Within a few minutes, the servant comes back. She says, did you cover the body? She's like, I'm sorry, I didn't. She's like, why? I asked her to cover my husband's body. She said, as I was about to cover his body, I saw the holy body of Aba Abdullah. And I thought to myself, how can I cover Zuhair's body? And the son of Rasulullah lies there on the ground with no cover on his body. So you've got this night which I can never, ever appreciate what they've gone through. Ladies, there's no Abbas, there's no Hussein. Imam Zayn al-Abideen is not feeling well. One may argue that that night, say that Zayn became an Imam for the whole of mankind, that she becomes this colossal personality, magnanimous, dignified, but brave, willing to lay her life on the line so that everybody's safe that day. So in regards to the bodies that were buried in Karbala, I mean, they were laying there. Now all of the companions now have been taken as captives. How was Imam Hussein actually buried? How were all the companions who made their graves? Was it after? Sure, that's a good question. Imam Hussein, alayhis salams, body lay on the ground in Karbala for a few nights with no one to bury it. Some narrations mention the presence of Bani Assad coming to Karbala to bury his body, that's clear. And Imam Zayn al-Abideen returning back to Karbala to bury his father. Now someone may ask the question, hold on. If they leave Karbala to go to Kufa on the 11th of Muharram, how does Imam Zayn get from Kufa's prison all the way back to Karbala? We know very well, Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala, if he wants to, there are certain of his chosen servants, he may give them the ability of Kunfei al-Kun, because of their obedience to him.  The jinn, one of them says, I can bring it to you, that's like me saying to you, I've forgotten my laptop in Sydney, Australia, could you get it to me before? Or who could get it to me as soon as possible, you'll say this is three, four days working days and so on.   Then the Quran mentions someone who had some knowledge of the book, some knowledge, said I'll bring it to you before you blink it was there. Now, if the success of Nabi Sulaiman, alayhis salam, Allah gave him the ability to get the queen of Sheba's throne from one side of the world to another without the eye blinking, what is the issue then with an Imam like Imam Zainabdin, burying Imam Hussain, or Imam Al-Jawad burying Imam Al-Radha when Imam Al-Jawad was not in Meshad when Imam Al-Radha died. Imam Zainabdin, alayhis salam is able to return back to Karbala. Bani I said their wives were embarrassed with them that they did not help Imam Al-Hussain, alayhis salam. And so their wives said the least you could do is go and bury Imam Al-Hussain, alayhis salam. When they got to Karbala, there's a problem. There's many bodies, no heads. How do we know which body belongs to whom? Because you know what the Umayyads did? They put the heads of Imam Al-Hussain and some of his companions on spears so that they could parade them in an act of barbarity. That is not surprising for someone who's the grandson of a cannibal like Hind. And so what happens is at this moment, the narrations mention that many are uncertain. There's a head here, there's a body over there, you pick one side of it, the other falls on the ground. What do we do? And all of a sudden from a distance, they see Imam Zainabdin, alayhis salam. When they see the Imam, the narrations mention that at first they're uncertain. Who is that? Maybe we're in trouble. Maybe it's him in Ziyad. Who could it be? Then when he approaches them, he says to them, why are you doing here? They said, we just came as bystanders. We're just, you know, seeing what took place. So he's like, no, tell me why are you doing here? And they said, we've come to bury the holy body of Ababa Abdullah al-Hussain, alayhis salam, and his family and his companions. He said, so why haven't you buried the body then? They said, we don't know which body belongs to whom. There are pieces everywhere. So he says to them something interesting. He says, go and dig three different graves. So they go and dig three different graves. He says, as for the first grave, bury Habib ibn Madaher in that grave. If you go to Karbala today, Habib, the son of Madaher, is buried alone. He has his own dhariha. As for the second grave, bury the companions of my father. They hear father. Now they're wondering, hold on a minute, who could this be? As for the third grave, bury the family of Imam al-Hussain, alayhis salam. Then when they finish burying, if you see now, the Sahab of Imam al-Hussain in one place, and Habib ibn Madaher has his own grave. When they finished, he then says the famous lines, now I'm going to walk towards a body which only me and unseen forces can bury. For the first time, since his father was beheaded, he has to take the walk to his father's body. It's mustahab, let's say, when you bury your father's body, you turn his cheek to one side. I asked you, where was the cheek of Imam al-Hussain? Imam Zain al-Abideen walks towards the body of Imam al-Hussain, and the strides become heavier. And as he's walking, he gathers the dust of Karbala. He knows that this is a very difficult moment. I can't wish on anyone having to walk towards their father's decapitated body. And he just falls by his father's body. And there's an unbelievable outpour of emotion, because you know Imam Zain al-Abideen's mom died a few days after giving birth to Imam. So his whole life really was his father, and he's devastated that he's not able to have his father because of his illness. And he ends up burying his father, and then Bani Asad said to him, there's a body by the forad. When we lift one side of the body, the other falls on the ground. And when we lift one side, the other falls on the ground, he calls out, As-salamu Alaikum, Ya Qamar Bani Hashem. Ya Abel Fadl al-Abbas, he begins to go towards burying his uncle Abbas's body. They say that, saying Mehdi Bahar al-Ulum was in charge of the rebuilding of the shrine of Abel Fadl, a couple of hundred years ago. So Mehdi says that the builders said to him after they finished, said, Maulana, is it true Abel Fadl was very tall? Yes. So he said, yes. They said, we're not sure. He said, why? He said, because his grave is so small, Maulana began to cry. They said to him, why are you crying? He said, I wonder how much they chopped his body into pieces. So Imam al-Hussain, if any of you, for example, have a loved one who's not buried on the same night as they die, don't give up on this one. For the grandson of Rasul Allah himself, his body laid there on the ground. And of course Imam Zayn al-Abdil later in Sham, in his sermon, mentions these very lines. Maulana, in regards to the narrations, and you're saying that, oh, you know, the Imam says this and this has been narrated in history, the events of Karbala, the actual battle itself, what took place after. I know you've mentioned already, as he'd sent out narrators and journalists to take down. Are these biased by any chance? Also, how do we know the authenticity of Karbala and what happened after as well? Sure, there are many people who say this. They say, how do I know that what you're saying about Karbala and your medallist actually took place? For all I know that this is fabricated. Firstly, there are two Imams who survived Karbala, Imam Zayn al-Abdil and Imam al-Baqir. Imam al-Baqir, alaihi salam, was three and a half years old in Karbala. Imam Zayn al-Abdil, alaihi salam, was in his mid 20s in Karbala. So you find that Imam Zayn al-Abdil and Imam al-Baqir provide us with the narration of what took place. Secondly, Zaynab was present at Karbala, and she lives after Karbala, and she gives medallist after Karbala. So she's able to tell us what took place. Zaynab is able to tell us what took place. Likewise, the wife of, for example, Zuhair ibn al-Qayn was at Karbala, she's able to tell us what took place. Likewise, you have the narrators who are present on behalf of Yazid, and you've also got five years after Karbala, Muqtar al-Thakfi. Muqtar al-Thakfi, avenges Karbala. Muqtar al-Thakfi cannot be at Karbala because he's imprisoned by Abdullah ibn Ziyad. And Muqtar swears that he'll get out of prison and he will avenge Omar ibn Sa'ad, Shamr ibn al-Jawshan, and Abdullah ibn Ziyad, one by one capture them. Now, when Muqtar al-Thakfi captures them, he's able to collect a lot of the narrations about what took place in Karbala.  History is his story. History, if you break the word history, what do you get? His story. There are going to be emperors who'll lie. Yes. There are going to be emperors who will try and show someone in a good light and someone else in a bad light. Yes. But it's ironic, Subhanallah, that our history written in the, let's say, late Umayyad, middle Abbasid period. Subhanallah, the Maqat al-Karbala. Be it Tabari, be it Ibn al-Athir, be it Ad-Dainawari, be it, for example, Ibn Sa'ad, be it so many different narrators about what took place on the 10th of Muharram. And you're able to collect all of these so that you can have a certain picture of the sacred history. And this history that we have, does it go on to tell us about what happened after Karbala, as in what happened after they burnt the tents, they took everyone captive, and then they began on a journey. Where would they go in? Well, may Allah SWT bless and give him a long life. Long life, Sheikh al-Karbassi. Sheikh al-Karbassi has done over 100 volumes on Imam al-Hussein and Karbala. And he's one of our teachers and one of our scholars. And he has actually mapped out what took place from Karbala to Kufa, Sham, Karbala Medina. They leave Karbala on the 11th of Muharram. You got to remember Omar ibn Sa'ad is looking forward to a big prize. What was he promised? The land of Ray. Where's Ray? Modern day Tahran, let's say in Iran. Now that's not a small piece of land. You know, I wouldn't mind having a land that big. But not by killing the grandson of the Prophet peace be upon his family. But Omar ibn Sa'ad wants to get this massive reward. You know, Omar ibn Sa'ad, Shamir ibn al-Jawshan, Awaidullah ibn Ziyad, all of them want this reward. They want the glory. They want the victory. They want Yazid to know what they've done. They want to get out from Karbala as soon as possible. On the 11th of Muharram, they leave Karbala. On the 12th of Muharram, they get to Kufa. The ladies of Al-Muhammad are forced to ride horses with no saddles. May Allah Subh'anaHu Wa Ta'ala give us patience at this moment. It's an extremely difficult moment for them. And what's worse is having your beloved's heads on spears. Look, you lose someone. When they're buried, you've got some sort of solace.  It's probably the most devastating piece of history we have. The Umayyads had begun this act of publicly parading people they've beheaded with Amr ibn Hamaq al-Khuzai when they killed him. And they continued this act.  Or they'd parade the heads. They'd want everyone to see that. Listen, any of you think of messing with our government, this will happen to you as well. And we have no limit. If we could do it to Muhammad's grandson, we have no limit to who we will do this to. So these ladies are meant to ride on horses with no saddles. These ladies have their heads of their beloved on spears. If anyone today in the world tells me it's difficult being a Muslim, believe me, you've not seen difficulty like that journey from Karbala to Khufa to Shah. And when they bring them into Khufa, they've made this big announcement, you know, and the propaganda at that time was unreal, especially in Shah, more so than Khufa. Khufa, people knew about what's taking place. And they were in for a stern word from Sayyid Zain al-Alaykum. But they were ready. They've come out and imagine these ladies who 20 years earlier, their dad or their granddad was the caliph and the ruler of the whole of the Islamic empire now operated as prisoners in the streets of Khufa. One could argue that the Ahlul Bayt actually grew up in Khufa when Imam Ali, alaihi salam, was the caliph and his government, his capital was in Khufa. Well, I would say the Ahlul Bayt's main upbringing is Medina. But certainly after the age of 30, Khufa becomes very important for Imam Al-Hasan, for Imam Al-Hussain and for Sayyid Zain al-Alaykum. So they're paraded in the streets and the insults differ from Shah. Shah was this very disgraceful, low insulting attitude.  Here's some food. Zainab, the princess, the granddaughter of the Prophet Muhammad is now being made to feel like a homeless person, but she maintains her dignity. They throw them in these ruins in Khufa and in these ruins, they want them to feel the darkness of the night. They want them to feel the burning sun. They want them to feel all of this. And can you imagine for young Ruqayyah only four years old, can you imagine for the wives of, for example, Imam Al-Hussain, Aba al-Fadl al-Abbas and others, how difficult it must be that you're trying to recover, but you're seeing your most beloved with their heads on spears? But the performance of Zainab in Khufa is something unreal because in the midst of the difficulties that she sees, she doesn't flinch. She could easily give up on this world. She could easily say, you know what, I'm facing too many troubles, too much troubles on the contrary. You find that Zainab suddenly rises to the fore in her most intense moment with Ibn Ziyad. That's a quick question. How long did it take for them to travel from Karbala to Khufa? Because we've done the walk and we know it's a long, long journey. It takes two, two, two and a half days, three days, one day. How fast were they traveling? Well, you got in contrast to horses with no saddles. Yeah, in contrast to us through, for example, thick of stopping, having a cup of tea, eating, whatever. As I said, they want the rewards. And if it means those horses are going to gallop and it's going to hurt you, so be it. They want to get there. Yeah. And they get to Khufa on the 12th of Muharram and they stay in Khufa for about eight days. And as you know, at the time, the governor of Khufa is Abdullah ibn Ziyad. Yes. In Sahih al-Bukhari. If you type Ziyad, Sahihabukhari.com, just type Ziyad in the box, Z-I-Y-A-D. Okay. There's a discussion about Ibn Ziyad and Anas ibn Malik and how Ibn Ziyad would poke the lips and the eyes of Imam al-Hussain, alayhi salam. He had Imam al-Hussain's head next to him. He had a stick in his hand. Say that Zaynab ibn Iwan Zayn al-Abideen are there as prisoners and he'd poke the lips and the eyes. At this moment, surely you'd think that would devastate Zaynab. And he looks at him and he says, what do you think of what happened to Karbala in Karbala? He knows that he's hurting him. And she replies, I saw nothing but beauty.  Tell me, you've lost Aoun and Muhammad, you've lost Abbas, you've lost Hussain, you've lost Qasim, you've lost Akbar. But what did she say? I saw nothing but beauty. One of the standout statements made by any of the members of Al-Muhammad alayhi salam. Because it teaches us that in this world where there's so many trials, tribulations and difficulties, always try and look for God's divine wisdom behind all of these tests. Some of us look at the cup half empty, she's saying look at the cup half full. Some of us are very despondent and despairing. She's like, no, no, God's merciful, don't worry.  And she says to him, Ibn Ziyad, I saw nothing but beauty. Because also at Karbala, she saw the most impeccable performance by any human being as to what it means to be God's rep on earth.  Never does he flinch from his principles. Isn't that beautiful? So definitely. So when she says, I saw nothing but beauty. She's shaken Ibn Ziyad. And you know Ibn Ziyad at one point wants to hit her. I remember the grand scholar Siba Weyh used to live in Qom. A group of people one day came to they said to Molana, would you recite Masaib for us? Recite Masaib please, recite for us. He's like no, there are people out there to recite better than me. They're like one, just one, one Masaibah.  He said, you want a Masaibah? They're thinking they're going to get a five minute Masaibah, 10 minutes, 25 minutes long Masaibah. He's like, I'll give you a Masaibah. Zaynab entered the court of Ibn Ziyad. Isn't that Masaibah? Just think about it. The granddaughter of the Prophet Muhammad enters the court of a man whose dad was called Ziyad, son of his dad. The family of purity has to face the family of illegitimate births. But subhanallah, her principles do not flinch. I saw nothing but beauty.  She's weak. She has no voice. Voice? When she began to talk, there were people in Kufa saying, is that Ali Ibn Amital speaking? Her eloquence is her dad. She had seen her mom politically speak out with Fadak. Yes, yes, definitely. And what Fadak is, but her eloquence was her dad. And she gives a speech to the people of Kufa. Now, sometimes people say, you see Zaynab Zaynab, the way she talked about the people of Kufa, people of Kufa are the worst, people of Kufa let Imam Hussain down, people of Kufa. My dear brothers and sisters, don't generalize about a whole city.  This is a topic that some people haven't even heard of this. They don't even know that there was assassination attempts actually in Mecca while he was doing. They tried to kill Imam Hussain, alaihi salam, in Medina first, then they tried to come in Mecca. And Imam did not want the sacredness of the Ka'bah to be heard that there's someone killed by the Ka'bah even though Allah says a mosquito comes on your body and you can't kill it. The first people to let Imam Hussain down was Mecca and Medina, stop blaming Kufa because today I hear people saying the sheikh killed Imam Hussain. Buddy, where's Mecca and Medina? Where's Ibn Abbas? Where's Abdullah ibn Omar? Where's Sahel ibn Saad? Where's Zaid ibn Arqam? Where's the Sahaba? The ones who are alive who remain silent while the grandson of Rasulullah is about to be butchered. Where were Mecca and Medina to help the grandson of Rasulullah? Where were they to stand up for him? Their love of Rasulullah results in them. Not helping his grandson results in them today in 2017. Many of them not even knowing what happened to the granddaughters of Rasulullah. She gives the speech to the people of Kufa and reminds them how could you watch this happen to Imam Hussain. And Sukayna gives a speech in Kufa. This unity of love of Allah SWT and the Yahlil Bayt in the Quran is mesmerizing in Kufa. These handful of people who've been through the worst days anyone can imagine. One gives a sermon here. When one finishes the other gives here. When one finishes the other gives here. It's unbelievable. And that strength was needed in Kufa because when you've got that many eyes staring at you and you've got cannibals on the other side, you need iman at that moment. Definitely. Dr we have to go for a short break at the moment so do apologize for that. But to the viewers please stay tuned with us and I will continue the discussion on the topic. If you have a question you'd like to WhatsApp us, WhatsApp us, the number will be there. And also if you'd like to call in please call us on 0203 515 0199. Assalamu alaikum warahmatullah. Wa alaikum warahmatullah warahmatullah. Welcome back to Live in London with myself Mohsin Shah along with Dr Sayyid Ahmad Nakshwani. Sayyid we were discussing the events after the death of Imam Hussain and what took place. You mentioned in how the tents caught fire that the the Sahab were taken as captives and the daughters and the granddaughters of Rasulullah sallallahu sallam were taken to Kufa and entered the court. And unfortunately a situation where we have the purest of the pure against you could say the worst of the worst. Coming into Kufa surely there were people there who recognized the Ehlul Bayt. Surely there were people there who knew what was going on in terms of muslim ibn Aqeel alaihi salam was there beforehand. What was the atmosphere like for the Shia there? Was it quite tense as in they couldn't was it? That's a great question it really is at Kufa at that time was it was a hot spot of oppression and a city that was in the hands of ibn Ziyad and his henchmen even the so-called religious of the city let's say in the eyes of some over there you know sharaikh al qadi amongst others these were all in ibn Ziyad's pocket. So if the ones who lead prayers are in your pockets you've got nothing else left to worry about. Some of the original Shia of Imam Hussain alaihi salam were in prison such as Muhtara Thakfi. Then you had for example those who had met muslim ibn Aqeel but could not openly come out and support him such as Taw'a the lady who meets muslim ibn Aqeel when he's thirsty and sits by her door you know the story and this lady is looking for al muhammad and when she's looking for al muhammad she wants to go to hameeda or there are other names given about muslim ibn Aqeel's daughter she wants to go to her and you know hug her to tell her that you know i saw what happened to your dad there's even narrations that all of a sudden people are like you know what give water to these children and one of the children hears water and says a memorable line that how could you give me water and my six month old baby is still thirsty you know lines like that break your heart but i do often wonder that if we were in kufa at that time would one employ taqiyyah because it's a matter of life and death would you come out and openly say that you love Imam al Hussain alaihi salam knowing that this could end up causing your death ibn Ziyad was on a rampage by the way he did not mind killing anyone who stood up against him now umar bin sa'ad shema ibn al joshan their concern was that the heads reach sham the heads of imam al hussain alaihi salam and others the main person in charge of them was a man by the name of khuli or khawalla and he was in charge of these heads and one narration mentions that he takes the heads at home that night leaves it somewhere in the house and his wife wakes up screaming saying what have you done wow have you bought some heads home so these guys were so disgusting as human beings that's why the quran mentions the difference between al arab and al arab al arab are arabs arab are these thuggish you know bedwins who don't care about law they've got their own tribal ways and you know you've got this guy who happily holds the head puts it at home and goes to bed today if i said to you there's someone who who killed someone took his head put it at home in the microwave oven and went to sleep you'll be like this guy needs to be incarcerated this guy needs to be put somewhere quickly exactly these were the people ruling islam 50 years after rasul allah died and that's why when people say how did imam al hussain save islam imam al hussain saved us from having these people in power he made everybody realize that you know what if you guys don't buckle up then you've got to say salam al islam peace be upon the religion of islam imam al hussain al islam and his sister say the same and went tirelessly to struggle to ensure that such barbarians would not rule islam the omayeds ruled but now who knows where the omayeds are the abbasids ruled where are the abbasids yet fatma zahra sons wherever you go in the world there are people who remember what they did so omad bin saad now decides that you know what we've got to get these heads as soon as possible towards shahm because the quicker you get them the better which route did they take kufa go up to musul then sinjar so they went to musul they went sinjar halab baalbek then towards damaskas so going towards musul and sinjar what was the reception like there musul sadly no difference to today they were pelting with stones imagine zayn ab daughter of ali granddaughter of rasul allah but put their father and the granddad aside let's just talk on a basic level a woman with no help no support they entered musul they pelted the stones and they pelted the head of imam al hussain musul you know musul up until the time of abdel malik bin marwan there was a drop of blood that fell from imam al hussain's head on a stone there people would go and visit that stone subhanAllah that journey became a legacy for people to remember what took place until the umayyad khalifa abdel malik bin marwan decided to smash the stone up because people were coming to visit the stone thinking you know what what took place here and the more people would question the more the umayyads would be in trouble in musul when ahl al bayt alem salam when you know aqeelat al talibi and the fawat and when they all went towards musul they were pelted with stones can you imagine zayn ab aley salam has to cover these daughters of rasul allah sallallahu alayhi wa alayhi should have been pelted with stones remain strong remain strong and then from there from musul they went towards sinjar and in sinjar one of the daughters of imam al hussain dies say that's so it interrupts you there but i believe we have a caller on the line sure go ahead salamu alaykum rahmatullahi your name and where you're calling from hello salam alaykum um my name is zaynab ghuzar i'm calling from nandan maashaAllah your question please yes um actually i was reading seh demar's uh book um a few days back um 14 in falbuz and in the book seh demar you mentioned that has a bb sequena has um she didn't pass away during this time she passed with the long life uh my question is that we haven't uh really been told about her life after karbala so if you could shed some light about it um because in the majalis that i used to listen to in pakistan it was we were told that bb sequena passed away but um it's completely missed about that thank you so much thank you for your question sure um i'll give you a brief glimpse of the discussion although on monday's show part two we look at the role of of sequena in sham and then what happens after sham to the lives of these ladies but briefly let me just say one thing sometimes people assume that that young girl who died in the prisons was sequena you find that a number of the top scholars say that there were two daughters around hussein yes sequena was much older than ruqaya now for all we know all of their names are fatama these are just titles exactly one is sequena or sequena the other is ruqaya one gives you tranquility the other gives you comfort imam al hussein if you had a chance he'll name all his sons ali and all his daughters fatama these could be titles but certainly the one who dies in the prison in sham that's the three and a half year old that's not sequena bint al hussein rather they said that that is ruqaya the daughter of imam al hussein and that sequena lives a longer life in the indoor pack community yes there isn't really a distinguishing of sequena and ruqaya whereas in the araqi community there is a major clear distinguishing between the two and there are ulamas out there who have discussed sequenas biography yes which the umayids and habasit certainly tried hard to to change but that's inshallah we'll discuss on monday's episode and inshallah then they make it make it clear the difference between ruqaya the young girl who doesn't really know what's happening with her father in contrast to sequena who in her sermons and kufa certainly knows what's happening exactly uh say no we were talking about uh the travel to yeah so so in sinjar one of the daughters of imam al hussein ali salam dies and for her the shrine becomes a famous shrine which people visit in sinjah subhanallah even after karbala you have daughters of imam al hussein who pass away sinjah this is uh lebanon no no no you're still talking haraq okay um you know you're going towards morsel sinjah you're going towards syria yep that area the border area and so on like how you see in the isis war right now that whole territory your raqas your morsels your syria iraq area and that daughter of imam al hussein al-islam who dies because there's a a maqam for her a place where people are able able to visit many people think imam al hussein's children only one died afterwards they say ruqaya and the prisons yes they don't realize the in sinjar imam had a daughter that died then in ba al-baq where until today you have some of the most wonderful lovers of ahlul bayt ali al-salaam they say if you want to see a lover of imam ali al-salaam meet ba al-baq nobody loves imam ali al-salaam like the people of ba al-baq and there is a maqam there for say the khawla the daughter of imam al hussein al-salaam so you've got morsel sinjar and you've also got ba al-baq but you've also got halab up until recently you know we used to all go ziyara to sham yes may Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala allow us to return soon and we'd always make that four five six hour journey towards raqa and halab and the raqa we'd meet or we'd sit by the grave of oasis al-qarani khawzayma bin thabit al-ansari hammar binyasar because raqa is where the battle of saffi took place in halab halab has muslims and has christians yes and in halab there was a christian priest who looked at these prisoners who had come he doesn't know zaynab doesn't know imkul he sees them and the army of shimmer bin al-joushan they just want to get to sham quickly so they're like listen we come here for the night when you sleep a bit and then we'll go and so he looks at the heads on the spears but there's one head in particular that affects him and he keeps looking at that head he asked them whose head is that they said you've got you know it's none of your business it's the leader of the rebels that's the way they described imam al-hussein you know what he went to wash the face of imam al-hussein that face had blood all over that face that was kicked on the ground that face that had an arrow straight through the forehead and he begins to wash the face and subhanallah miraculously this is the priest narrating he says i said in the name of mary and her son tell me who you are and he says i heard a voice saying the verse from surat al-kahaf if you think the companions of the cave and the rakim are a sign of god then know that i hussein son of ali i'm the greatest sign of god and this priest is taken aback and he asks to be one of the prisoners going to sham he's that much affected by imam al-hussein he joins the camp he joins the camp wow so in halab until today and certainly when we used to visit from you know the year 2006 2007 when the haidari islamic center in south london began doing ziaras to to you know to sham and then later on with spiritual journeys when we went i remember giving majalis by this very area where the head of imam al-hussein was and the people of halab be they christian or be they muslim never forget this place because it's in the monastery so you're saying that the actual location the location where the head was kept that the priest owned yep yep yep the location wow that same location is still there until today sadly with you know i says some people like that they sought to destroy these monasteries but subhanallah a christian is enamored by imam al-hussein al-sana imagine the light shining from the face of aba abadullah that this christian just looks at that face and wants to be with the companions and with the beloved ones of zaynab and those that surround it doctor if you make we take some questions my phone is going all over the place but a lot of questions asking on a good reference to qarbala and what's happened and what's happened after is there any books you could recommend especially in the english language sure um although most of the books i've read would be in arabic but in english there's three types of books to think about one is the original narrative so someone could look online if you look for the maqtel yes of abu michnaf abu michnaf m-i-k-h-n-a-f pdf probably available yeah pdf online is available i sent the maqtel of abu michnaf that gives you an understanding of what took place in the journey ansaryan publications in qom had a very good book released about seven eight years ago called the tragic saga of qarbala wow i really enjoyed that read it was excellent arabic english then there's a third genre of books the likes of david pinot kamran aghai peter chelkowski have written excellent analysis of the impact of qarbala and ashura today wow and the impact of say the zaynab today so if you look for peter chelkowski david pinot p-i-n-a-u-l-t and kamran aghai they have written brilliant works about qarbala and the narrative and how it works today just a quick note to the viewers if you do have a question you like to send in via whatsapp the number should be on the screen and if you'd like to call in and give a question direct to say damar please call us on 0203 515 0199 doctor another uh i don't really like this question here and then i hope you can shed some light on it but did the life of the ahlul bait always center around the misiba of qarbala though out the throughout their lives and came home as illustrated by zaqareen often or they resort to some other aspects of to propagate islam so um was was the the whole of the ahlul bait did it evolve around after qarbala did everything else no imam of ahlul bait dies without mentioning imam al hussein and his final breaths secondly every imam of ahlul bait stresses on ziyarat al hussein thirdly every imam of ahlul bait we used to ask recites please recite for me masaeb al hussein because they knew qarbala if someone reflects on that day you reflect on justice you can see it on spoken of on that day you reflect on the role of woman on that day leadership on that day morals on that day humility on that day sent interfaith intrafaith politics economic everything can be seen on that day but naturally ahlul bait wants us to reflect on that day to apply the principles not to just simply be emotional i have a personal question if i may sure is we've heard uh the imams and also the scholars say that we will not forget qarbala the way they forgot ghadir as in they forgot ghadir and forgot the status of the ahlul bait zaynab was the difference zaynab was not at ghadir one may argue mashallah and um and she's definitely the difference zaynab is what kept qarbala alive question here this is direct to you uh the zaynab some say that ibn ziyad could have killed say the zaynab uh alay salam but alasmaa what ala protected her without sounding blasphemous ala could have also saved imam hussein alay salam so what stopped ibn ziyad from killing her while she was the derived her famous speech in the play in the palace i think ibn ziyad realizes that everybody is looking at him in shock that he's willing to kill a woman they would have seen him as the most cowardly as he's about to hit her he looks around and everybody is in shock the ibn ziyad who dominated kufr all of a sudden seemed so small mashallah could one also say that there was imam sahajad there to protect i think on the contrary i think it's say the zaynab would jump in and um and yeah you know at that moment ibn ziyad realized that you know what if i do kill her right now these people around me may think twice about the story that's being given mashallah another question here in regards to the root specifically why did they take that root why was the stopovers why didn't they go direct to Damascus it's impossible that the human being could just go direct from kufr to Damascus without sleeping you know and so they needed to sleep and it was like an it was at least at least a 10 day journey so they needed their rest on the way they felt that the northern root would be quicker and the southern root on the way back was what they took a little bait back towards karabana ascent could you say at that time it was the most feasible root yeah the fastest root yeah ascent ascent another question here i'm listening to dr nakshawani i'm eager to know why didn't uh muqtara saqafi take sorry i'm getting phone calls left to right instead of didn't take imam sahajad aslam in confidence for avenge for enemies of islam aslam well i think imam zayn al abideen aslam silence was approval for muqtara saqafi imam zayn abideen politically at that time could not come out openly and say i'm supporting what you're doing but later on there is you know there are traditions from you know imam zayn abideen rahim allah al muqtar falakad akhada bithaqrina wantaqa malana min aduina then you have the traditional imam al baql aslam laa ta subbu al muqtar falakad akhada bithaqrina wantaqa malana min aduina so the other bait approval but naturally muqtara taqafi is not masoom there are certain differences on some of the decisions for sure that sounds uh question here and i would i would like to rephrase it for you if possible but in regards to modern day um women's rights and maybe some some uh feminist objections towards the religion of islam the actions of say the zaynab do they actually clarify a woman's role and what she is allowed to do uh in in terms of freedom of speech um speaking out against depression um it it makes gathering something like that your comments please on that the doctor hi zaynab alayhi salam at one point becomes you know virtually the leader of the religion of islam unless people wanted to say yazeed was the leader which i don't think any muslim out there must do in middan and that really highlights to you that that wonderful position that a man or a woman can reach spiritually there is no difference whatsoever yes some male chauvinistic patch you know patriarchal societies will never accept that a woman can speak so loudly against the injustice of men but i think what's so beautiful would say the zaynab alayhi salam she gives you that that that voice that if there is a society that's so misogynistic as yazeed and obeyed Allah bin zia had demonstrated um in in early islam then you know what don't let them speak out against them challenge them challenge them eloquently you know it's not just challenge them know your quran also challenge them with eloquence you know and when we see on monday when we discuss what happens from when they enter sham you'll see yazeed looks at and says you know what your your arabic you're quite eloquent yes yes and she has that famous reply which i'll touch on on monday inshallah inshallah so uh in regards to your answer um it's more to do with the methodology um and say the zaynab displays that immaculate her mother went to the event of mubahela yes and her mother represented islam that day it was a political event to meet the christians of nijran ascent and her mother showed her that you know what there is no harm woman being at the front now this religion Allah swt has not created woman as half of the man where the woman is less intelligent and you know people say oh she's created from the rib of adam and nonsense like this no represented the religion on the day of mubahela spoke out against injustice with the ishure fadak and her daughter was her reflection ascent i think it's going to be the last question so if you could really go into depth how can we use karabela the whole tragedy and also what took place after the events that took place after in uh relation to our relationship with the imam of our time because let's not forget we do have a maasum who probably this may be a very difficult time for him a very emotional time for him how can we improve and use karabela to strengthen that relationship with our imam well i think the mission of imam and hossain is a humanitarian mission not an islamic mission it's a mission that sought to speak up for the oppressed speak up for the deprived and speak up against corruption and so his grandson the imam of our time the mission is similar please let's not always talk about the imam of our time as a man who's going to come and kill people and you know wave the sword everywhere and destroy the imam of our time is going to come as a voice for those people oppressed out there people who are homeless people who lack water people who face malnutrition people who have seen corrupt governments people who have seen despots and so any muslim any christian anybody can join the imam like the way we have joined like the way zohair ibn al qayn joined they may not have been theologically the same as imam and hossain but they were welcome to join because they had similar goals and i think if we have a larger vision than the vision of some narrow mind people imam mehdi is going to come he's going to kill people he's a muslim no imam is the imam who's a mercy for mankind like his grandfather rasoolallah any human being out there who's facing oppression they're all going to speak out for inshallah dr amar thank you so much final points if you could is there anything you would like the viewers to take away from tonight's discussion just really that you know for those people out there who face difficult times some face depression depression some face mental health issues try and look at what zaynab went through after karbala hold on to her and you'll get through whatever struggle your face thank you thank you very much doctor to the viewers i hope you enjoyed the discussion today and i hope you learned that karbala is not just 10 days and it's not just a great battle that took place a great tragedy but the imtahan that took place after for those of ali muhammad and the its close companions was a great great struggle that we should all remember honor and commemorate


Welcome to the essential getting started guide to Cloud Foundry. Thank you for joining us this morning. Let's get started. I'm Tyler Poland. I'm a technical director at Stark and Wayne. I help to ensure customer success and by leading our Cloud engineers like Tyler here. Yeah, and I'm Tyler Bird. As a Cloud engineer, I help to enable teams to build and maintain Cloud Foundries all across the nation. I'm also part of a larger team at Stark and Wayne that does Cloud Native enablement all around the world. Today, we're going to give you a broad overview on getting started with the exciting world of Cloud Foundry. Each of these topics will be covered in more depth throughout the conference. For the moment, our goal is to give you a template that will help you make sense of all that's going on these days in Cloud Foundry. We're going to cover a lot of ground, but we will try to leave some room at the end for some questions. If you don't catch us now, follow us on Twitter, catch us in the hallway, or track us down at booth B4. Before what? No, booth B4. Ah, Bazinga, so. Okay, we'd like to take you on a journey through the eyes of our three main characters, the developer, operator, and owner. We'll point out the benefits of each of them get from using Cloud Foundry. So let's set the scene. It's the 24th century. Where the explorers from the planet Earth roam the known and unknown galaxy to seek out new life. Wait, Tyler, what does this have to do with Cloud Foundry? You'll see. Okay. You guys came for a talk about enterprise software, right? So how about we have a little fun and talk about Cloud Foundry for the enterprise, right? Oh no, what have you done to the slides? So for our developer, let's use Wesley Crusher, right? He's just getting started and he shows some promise. You know, he just needs a little experience. Okay, I get it. How about we use Jordy as an operator? Basically, he's got to keep things running for everyone. Okay, sure. And, you know, he has to do it while the entire ship's about to explode. So who would be our project owner? Probably Commander Riker because he'd coordinate things across all departments of the ship and he has an awesome approach to sitting in chairs. It's true, it's true. Before we get started, though, we've got a quick way to show you on which slides, which role matters the most. Like the owner or an operator or developer. But first, let's get started about talking about a platform as a service. For the developer, simply put, a platform as a service provides developers the ability to self-provision their own applications, resources and services. For an operator, there is no longer a need to manually provision VMs for apps and services. Instead, they can focus on site reliability engineering improvements. And the owner can sell the platform to the business because the return on investment is the savings of time of no longer having to be concerned with developing and managing a platform as well as an application, faster time to market, and so on. Therefore, as a platform as a service, Cloud Foundry already helps everyone out. As that sinks in a little, let's look at it with an illustration. In the traditional model, our development and operation teams both need to be concerned with the entire stack. A new application often means provisioning new systems, a process which can take weeks or even months to complete. Scaling up an architecture also often includes these same long lead times because resources just aren't sitting around waiting to be put into service. And failure on one component or multiple components in this model becomes a big concern, often requiring next or same-day business support contracts from hardware vendors or significant redundancies for critical systems. The operations team needs Geordi, along with a fistful of data just to keep everything running. And then when we talk about infrastructure as a service, it creates the architecture that allows virtualized components to be adapted to and fits the needs of a given application. Workloads can be shifted across the virtualization layer if a system fails and extra resources are easier to build. Beforehand, since hardware is no longer available to be dedicated to one specific purpose. Developers deploying applications in this model still have to have some idea about the underlying infrastructure and how to work with the storage and other supporting services like databases. The components available and the methods needed to connect to those components will be infrastructure-specific, preventing a lift and shift of the application to the new infrastructure and resulting in vendor lock-in. Operators would still have to manage their service requests and maintain the application stack manually and manage security, et cetera. A cloud-native platform as a service, such as Cloud Foundry, abstracts away the details of working with the underlying infrastructure. Connections to backing components like databases are provided in a standardized fashion. Community-supporsed application run times are packaged with the application to ensure that applications run the same locally as they would in production. Applications are deployed with manifests that tell the platform important things about the application, such as what services are needed, what build packs are in use, how much physical storage is needed, or how many instances should be started. Applications can readily be ported to any Cloud Foundry that has been configured with the same version, services and rules, regardless of the infrastructure that it ultimately runs on. You mean I don't have to run my Trekkie blog on my laptop anymore? Yep. With a switch to Cloud Foundry, you'll be ready for development at warp speed. Bazinga. So the magic of Cloud Foundry is driven primarily by a few key concepts that we want to highlight here. Bosch is a powerful purpose-built tool for managing the life cycle of cloud software and cloud VMs. Cloud Foundry itself is just one of the many software packages that Bosch can deploy. Most importantly, Bosch is capable of monitoring the state of VMs it starts and provide for automatic failure recovery and a canary mechanism for safe software upgrades. The true power of Bosch lives in its cloud provider interface, or CPI. The CPI is an API that abstracts infrastructure differences from Bosch, enabling it to manage resources on an ever-growing number of infrastructures. The Cloud Controller is responsible for orchestrating the application life cycle and balancing demand across the cluster. When an application is first deployed, the stem cell application runtime and application are packaged into a droplet and uploaded to the Cloud Foundry storage called the Blob Store. To scale up an application, this droplet is simply executed as many times as needed. The router knows where all the VMs actively running any given application are located. Its job is to route inbound traffic requests to the VMs running the applications those requests are intended for. When an application scales up, the router knows how to direct traffic to those new resources. So what happens when something goes kaboom? The cold hard reality is that systems sometimes fail. Rather than trying to prevent those failures, the Cloud Foundry has been designed with the mindset of embracing them and being ready to respond when they occur. Let's take the example of a server failure. Within the infrastructure layer, the Cloud Controller is going to recognize that the applications that we're running on that host no longer have the proper number of active processes. And the controller will then fetch the necessary droplets from these applications and schedule them on the remaining available VMs assigned to Cloud Foundry. The router will first redirect traffic for the missing service instances to other process nodes for that same application. When the additional VMs are brought online, that load will be spread back out to all of the available instances. And finally, Bosch will automatically work at the infrastructure layer to allocate a replacement VM to take the place of the one that failed. Restoring your Cloud Foundry to its full capacity. To learn more, we recommend that you look at some of these additional resources. You know, we can't do a really deep dive into all the internals here. So these are some of the good starting points. Both Bosch and Cloud Foundry maintain excellent online documentation, which is also open for community collaboration. As a result, the documentation is current and thorough and keeps pace with the ever-changing face of Cloud Foundry. EDX offers an introduction to Cloud Foundry and Cloud Native Software Architecture as part of their massive open online courseware program. The ultimate guide to Bosch is a deeper dive into the power of Bosch and will walk you through various exercises on your local system. To run a Cloud Foundry locally, your best bet is probably CFDev. It's a bit of a resource-intensive program. It requires two cores and eight gig of memory, but it will give you your own space to explore with minimal time investment. There's also PCFDev, if you're interested in trying Pivotal Cloud Foundry. On a high-speed connection, CFDev takes around 45 minutes to install. The Cloud Foundry Foundation keeps a list of certified platforms running Cloud Foundry, which will explain what options are available on a subscription basis if you're not ready to build your own Cloud Foundry. Many of these services also offer free trials that let you experiment with deploying your application on a real production Cloud Foundry. Finally, if you find yourself stuck or just want to get to know more of the community, the Cloud Foundry Foundation runs an open Slack organization that you can sign up for. Now that you know a little bit more about Cloud Foundry, how about we just see a little bit of a demo and learn more about that? As we mentioned, Cloud Foundry Foundation has certified platforms. These platforms use the same Cloud Foundry that you'd use if you installed it yourself. Let's use the Pivotal Web Services platform as an example today and show you how simple it is to wrench your own Cloud Foundry in a matter of minutes. Of course, I've jumped over a couple of account verification steps here to show the best parts. Yet in over just a minute, I went from one click to sign up to a deployed example app and Cloud Foundry was ready and waiting for me to join. At this point, I've pushed the app and click on the link and it's running and it took less than a minute. So now we're going to take a minute to talk about proof of concept. For the proof of concept, focus on a quick, simple environment. Keep in mind that this is meant to be used to learn from and then thrown away. Typically, self-signed certificate will be adequate at this early stage. You'll want to be aware of what that certificate request process ultimately looks like in your organization and understand the turnaround time associated with it. But it shouldn't be a blocker. This environment is only going to be around for a short time. You don't need to be crisp at this point, but you do want to take a lot of notes and that will help you out when you get in future phases. So we also recommend that you identify a cross-section of employees to work on this project from the development, operations, infrastructure, security, and compliance teams. These early discussions and exploration will help when you're putting together the proof of concept. Gather early feedback from then your stakeholders so that the concerns and issues can be planned for at future stages. And when you're ready to build a real thing. Try to keep this to a small lean team. Like we mentioned, four or five people is great. Start with minimal architecture. You shouldn't need to install more than five or ten applications and typically won't need more than ten to twenty application instances. Even if you are ultimately going to deploy to private in-house infrastructure, consider using a public cloud during this phase. This avoids the long lead times of acquisition and install and minimizes the size of the team needed to prove that cloud foundry will be the right choice for your enterprise. And many people may think that the next logical step to jump right in after they've done a proof of concept is that they have to own a cloud foundry at this point. As a general rule, as a general rule it takes around 120 application instances or AIs to reach an economy of scale where it starts to make sense to operate your own cloud foundry. This can of course be influenced by application complexity, instance size, and security and compliance rules. So keep certified platforms in mind for that. Another alternative are managed services which can fill in or augment your existing operations team and provide the deep technical expertise and experience you need to hit the ground running. So how do you safely transition from your current version to the new hotness? I personally like the Galaxy class, although the saucer separation was admittedly a bit impractical. One of the key differences in cloud foundry community is that we use infrastructure as code. And with infrastructure defined by code in your repository you can start to build a CI CD pipeline to manage your platform and to do upgrades and installs. When doing so, keep in mind that it's usually important to have a separate delivery channel for the platform. Whoops, skipped ahead. I put a click in there, but it's not the right one. And the application teams. Concourse fits well into this ecosystem and is designed to help deploy and manage cloud foundry. When it comes to the application channel if you've got something already like Jenkins, Travis, CI, or TeamCity by all means keep using those tools. Otherwise, concourse is great at deploying applications too. Stark and Wayne hosts an excellent guide at concoursetutorial.com that you can check out. Of course, there are still some things to watch out for. One of the most overlooked topics in cloud foundry but information technology in general is somehow, still, backups are ignored. Make sure you have them. Make sure you know how to use them. Make sure they work and back up the right things to actually enable a complete restore. Another common pain point is keeping up with the updates as the community releases updated stem cells and build packs for applications. Once you fall behind in applying updates it becomes more difficult to define the maintenance events that will help you catch up while also ensuring minimal impact to your application deployments. Then with certificates that you use in production you first need to research and find out the right one that you need to use especially for wildcards so that might be a SAN and all those different requirements for your certificates. You need to stay on top of renewing them because certificates expire, right? And then we also put in our link here to our blog because when we find pain points at clients we like to share the results that we find on our blog. So we recommend checking out our blog for the things that we like to share back to the community because a lot of times we share things in code but we also like to share things in blog articles that help other people out. So in this episode of Star Trek we have two captains stranded on a foreign world who are forced to work together and learn to communicate before a common foe can overpower and destroy them both. What we are talking about here is culture. Not only within your team's interpersonal relationships but also within your established business practices. Make sure you are speaking the same language. At this level we are all technical but our various disciplines have a tendency to reuse terms which can make it seem like we are talking in metaphor. Cloud Foundry will help you to adopt rapid delivery practices but they won't automatically create that culture for you. As an organization you need to be willing to adapt your processes and controls to maximize the advantage of new agility. Above all, keep in mind you are all on the same side. You are here to look for things. Things to make your business go. Thank you for joining us today. Live long and prosper. Anyone have any questions that we didn't go over? I imagine with people who are getting started you have a lot of questions. So that's fine. We do definitely recommend you come see us in the booth. We can answer a lot of questions but if anybody has any specific questions they would like to talk about so we would be happy to talk about those there. Yes they will. So some of your experience, what are some of the common pitfalls or things that can go wrong when folks are getting started? You had a couple of bits of wisdom for people just getting started, what would those be? The only way to share them is slides. Right. When we were talking about the cost of ownership or we're talking about ownership in general I would say that people really need to be committed to wanting to run Cloud Foundry. Just like let's say you think about getting a dog and you think it's going to be so fun to have a puppy take care of it. Do the research ahead of time and find out whether it sheds how much activity it's going to have how much time you're going to have to spend walking it and doing all that. If that's an analogy of you don't know how big it's going to get and how much time you're going to have to spend walking it and doing those type of things I think sometimes people are not, they just think oh this is going to solve all my problems and so that's one caution that I see that sometimes they're not knowing that it does take maintenance and care and it needs people who are committed and interested and committed to sticking to it. Yeah. Similar question. So the question is what are the gotchas to deploying your own proof of concept? Is that kind of a summary? Okay. So to try to refine the question is it that setting up a long-term playground for people or to just set up a proof of concept? Okay. So because in me the pitfall sometimes with just a proof of concept let's separate that question into two parts. The proof of concept can sometimes be you don't have time and fear of like I don't think I can finish this or I don't know what I'm doing kind of stuff and lack of knowledge. Setting up a proof of concept is just try to figure it out. But setting up long-term and having something to really sandbox in and learn is something that sometimes you just got to bite the bullet and build the proof of concept or do that. And the sandbox I think that having something to really learn from over a long period of time is this from an operator perspective or from a developer perspective? Or a little both? Okay. As a developer if you want to do that I would recommend being able to go to one of the certified providers and just because then you don't have to stand up a foundation. You can just use what's already there. I would just add that if you want to have a stable development environment that you want to keep you have to maintain some of the same discipline in order to make sure is it documented effectively? If this thing blew up tomorrow could I rebuild it? Does the data matter that lives there? And if so what am I doing to protect that? Am I doing the right things to monitor capacity within that environment? And am I shutting it down? Because probably unless you have a lab in your closet you're probably using GCP or AWS which means people are deploying stuff, it gets bigger, it gets bigger, it gets bigger and before you know it you're spending $10,000 on a month for 30 applications that aren't running and two that are. Yeah. Thanks. Any other questions? Alright any other questions offline please come and see us. Thank you for your time. Thank you.


I am Allison Montgomery and I am from State College, Pennsylvania. I went to four years of Penn State for my bachelor's and I did another two years at Penn State for my master's. I am honestly looking forward to seeing what all I can learn in this new environment and also just to make new connections, new friends, and experience a different part of the United States.


Welcome to Toffy TV. Today I'm joined by Siobhan and Barry from the Fans Forum to talk about the recruitment process. It's happening at the moment. So, how do we go about it? So, on the club website at the moment is the application form and that is open till Monday so that's the 30th of May. And that's just a couple of questions about why you want to join the forum, time commitment, something that is important to the Everton-Thans Forum at the moment. And then we do a CIFT ac nid oes i ymgyrch, yw 6 ar 10 ddweud. Ac rwy'n ddweud, mae'n gwybod i ddweud fan. Felly mae'r fan yn dweud y ddweud, yn ddweud i chi'n ddweud i'r ffordd, ac mae'n ddweud i'r llwythau. Felly, mae'r ffordd yn ddweud i'r 13 ac y 24 ddweud. Ac mae'n gwybod i'r ddweud i'r ddweud, sy'n gwybod i'r newydd i'r ffordd i'r ddweud i'r ddweud i'r 30 ddweud i'r ddweud. Oh, oeddiwn. This is something, obviously, both of you have been through your body. I mean, it's obviously we sit very close to each other in the mat. I do, I do. Now and I think it's that interesting I think because I think few years ago with the fans forum they got a name for being a certain type of person. It's probably unfair as well, because obviously it's an unpaid role and it's evertonian's given their time up. I globally I know what you're like and we sit next to it in Frontier don't you so I think when I see people like you got one on me I think it makes a real difference that it isn't just for a certain type of fan and people like you who are, voice for us and have a opinion I think that's what it is, right? I think that's what it is, because like I know over the years it's had a reputation for being like a yes, a yes, like a yes culture of barry, you know, one challenge to club or not. And to be honest with you I thought that a few times, a few years ago and then I know what I'll just apply for this and if I get on and get on, you know, like luckily I've been on for a year and you've seen like we've sorted down the atmosphere, you know. So like just I'll use myself for an example I've got together with loads of fan groups and you've seen the atmosphere towards the end of the season from Leeds onwards. That is literally the form being like the spearhead with the support of every other like fan group and individuals and you see what we can create mate, so it's like there is stuff that you can do and it's nice to have like a connection to like people on there so like yourself, like you sit in front of me, whereas people in previous years don't really know where people sit on that. You know, and you've got to have like a type of personality to be honest, like because everyone on there at the minute brings like something different so like I've brought like atmosphere as you've own yourself, I've brought like stuff like hair game so you've got people like Stan on there who does a lot of the just like having in the community and disability work and then you've got David who's got the well-being, you've got Tony who does the international stuff and then. So everyone is, there is lots of different viewpoints and that is, I think it's important isn't it that you have, you do have people who are, I've got an opinion as well and you do want to make, it's changed really isn't it because it is, I guess at times it is easy to go on these things and think I'm part of something and with the club, we're working together but you do have to have that thing where you can't sit at the club now, we're actually not happy with the way you do. You're doing this and fans want different, I mean is that, do you feel like the people you've got on there will are doing that with the football club at the moment? Yeah, yeah, definitely and I think as you said it's really important to have diversity and different opinions and understand that we are a diverse fan base if you had everybody who was in the same group or the same viewpoint that does not represent Everton fans so as Barry said we each do represent and we have our own interests as well that we bring to it. So one of the main reasons I applied is because I wanted to kick discrimination out of football and our club with the All Together Now campaign and how great we are as a club for inclusivity and diversity already. I thought that's a great platform to build on and part of that you know the Evertonians are going to take campaign that we launched which we did things for like History Month, you'll have seen when the players take the knee on the screen as international fans including myself taking the knee to show solidarity. We did a lot with EDSI and Amy was just one fan of the year around the International Day of Disabled Persons and then a big part of it was Hair Game 2 because obviously over time myself, my female friends and women I know from the game even now have been subject to sex and abuse or that we don't know anything about football and it's not about saying all the time I'll look at us, it's about just making it normal that we're part of it. And Everton have already we are as I said we are quite inclusive so I think we've got one of the top female season ticker numbers anyway already just wish obviously they'd sort the toilet out but on to Bramley Mo for that. But I think what's really important is and building on Barry's work that he's been doing with the atmosphere group, the Hair Game 2 piece as well it's not just me speaking to the club with Hair Game 2. I've set up a network like you set up a network and international set up a network for example so I got a group of fans asked who wanted to get involved, we had a meeting in January and then we engage, listen, work together. Then we take the ideas to the club, see what's possible and then we keep that going so we've got like a WhatsApp group that continuously shares ideas. There's another meeting recently about how we continue this on after the launch at the Wolves match and that group has grown and grown and that's what Tony's done with international. I think North America, I think it's 45 plus groups have come together and then obviously the rest of the world is the stuff as well as part of international. But even like the North American toffees and that network have helped obviously with the pre-season planning and like the retail and be able to sell the shirt out in America. It's listening to what the fans want and working with the club to make it happen. So if anyone wants to be a part of that and whether they've got interesting atmosphere, Hair Game 2, New Stadium and the New Stadium Leeds because that's something I wanted to do as well. Everton for change or the climate change or the retail side of it like come and join us, get involved. Is it an easy process like you're saying? If I can do it anyone can. I wasn't setting you off with that buzz at all. I think often in the past I think we have particularly since this owner coming and under the previous incumbent. I feel anyway we felt as though we've kind of moved away from the clubs you know what I mean as if we've been to. I think a lot of fans are a lot of clubs feel like it's our club but it's not really our club. We like go to match and I think that this is really important actually and I know with the ESSG stuff as well trying to get a fan on the board. I think it is important that we are able to influence our football club because we showed during the pandemic footy without us it's not.  It's a sterile boring thing that we all switched our telly you know. Sadde flat with canned support and I don't know about you but it's just become tedious to watch. You just watch it and go oh yeah we won or we lost and you know you try to like be expert but it was nothing there. Since we've gone back in the stadium the atmosphere and now you know it's all dancing game. The atmosphere was really cool because we were all back but obviously we knew you know there was still people were happy with obviously the manager. That's what we've seen towards the end of the season. I think it is a thing for fans to go actually I can start to influence the club and through this and having people like yourselves on the board I think that does give it a connection. So if there is people out there who think I can bring this to the table and it's something I'm passionate about and other people feel similar then they're the people who can try to get on. And it's really important to listen to all the fans faces and as you said football without fans is nothing. And it's our club you know managers come and go owners come and go but we all remain players come and go we all remain we're Everton. And we all at the end of the day we all want the same thing don't we? We all want Everton to be successful with decenters based art but you know successful and be ran the best and you know put it off on bangs on about something you've just said there about like getting matey and dice out all over the world making it easy to buy Everton stuff now.  I can't get one unless you go on the website and bloody, bloody, bloody. So an old Tony I speak to Tony Sampson quite a lot now he's done a lot of work on that it can still improve because it can still improve in this country. Not perfect is it? No, no. I mean I got me Mars bars back in the upper bowlings which is huge. So it's a whole deal of craft here. Shorted that and you know Siobhan's mentioned in the toilet he wants to come and see our toilet up in the upper bowlings which is absolutely not me but that's for another day that's for Bram anymore isn't it? How much, I mean you just mentioned there about being the delete for Bram anymore. How much input will the forum listen to from fans with stuff that's going into Bram anymore. Maybe like the fan part if it's going to be that. Is the plan to listen to the fans for stuff there? It's literally any idea isn't it? Any idea that someone's got just send an email to the fans forum. It'll be delegated to Siobhan. I'm in the group myself. We'll just meet because you've all the questions and we'll take them to the club and then it's on the club's thing to answer them and then once we've got the answers we'll come back and tell the people who've emailed in or even just spoke to us at the match or anything spoke to us at the pub. We'll take it forward and the answer we'll pass on as well. I mean that's the best way to have change really isn't it? I guess is by trying to do it through the fans and then you're making more people happy than not. You're never going to please everybody. It's life isn't it? We know where the Tonians can be very opinionated and have different views but I think one thing certainly on the atmosphere side of it. We've spoken loads of times haven't we in games of like trying to do this and what do you think about this? We've had that discussion I think. What we saw at those last certainly the last three home games was unbelievable. I mean you know being going on a matter of long, long time. I've seen anything like that there in the 80s when we were unbelievable and it was great and that's one of the things that I've laughed at over the past when people have called like flags and stuff, cop-eye behaviour. I remember being a kid on the Gladys Street in the 80s when we were wearing stuff. Flags everywhere. Everywhere everything went there was flags everywhere. Any pity from Rotterdam. All you can see are flags. Even the coach welcome. I said, I wasn't around obviously when it happened but the Watford and the Cup final, we were the first team to do it. So it's not a Liverpool thing it's an everything. I literally said to the ones with the club before the Leeds game because we were speaking about it. I went right, I'm taking that and I'm going to sort that out. To be fair to the club that's what you get with the phone because you meet with club of people who work for the club if it can be done they'll do it. Have you found that? Have you found the club wanting to be more helpful with stuff like that? Just use the atmosphere again. Inside the ground you've probably seen the songs change. We said to the club we want to change the songs and go for it. Because at the end of the day the voice of what people, I'm not saying you speak for everyone but no-one would ever claim to do that but that's how you get the message across. At times the club is out of touch a little bit but then you'd expect that as well. All the ideas really probably need to come from us as a fan base and then go through you guys. Well Hair Game 2 came from a fan, she DMed me on Twitter. DMed the fans for him on Twitter and said I've saw you've ever tuned in to get a heat campaign if you've heard of Hair Game 2. And I was like we have actually and we spoke about it but what are your thoughts and then we pushed it and the club turned round and went we are more than happy to pledge to Hair Game 2 and be the first Premier League club to pledge to them and help with that. So that came from a fan on Twitter. So it isn't listening and passing the message, working together and then galvanising and obviously not stopping. Just a bit of a personality treat a man. Well no no but that's good though isn't it because that means you commit it to what you do. Don't get me wrong like it's not all rosy and plain sailing. The absolute mares that I've had with them. I tried to get free travel for Chelsea. We have had this discussion. And they said no and you could literally like a fly drop in the room once they said no. So it's not all rosy and plain sailing and you know like oh yeah we'll do this. Sometimes they do say no we're not doing it to which most of the time I'll just say alright you're out of order. And look at that we got it for Palace. But that's good though Barry because I think we do need people who will, who won't just go oh we can't do it okay. And the club said no and you're right to what you can say and you're right to if it's something you believe in and they say no then you'll absolutely be able to say it. And to me fair the club is very open. The club going hard in the shell. The club officials won't go hard in the shell or not. They will say like we're not doing it. Because. They give you the reasons why they won't do stuff. Well that's fair enough and I guess the more people are like that at the forum is like that it can be shaped because we were over to Germany very quickly with this. We went over to Germany and met like supporter Lee Aiden officers who were actually employed by the football club and they're not. They're employed by the football club but they're working for the fans so they're able to have that challenge with the football club and say no this is what we're doing and stuff like that. And I think that Dortmund and Dortmund's atmosphere is incredible and what they give their fans is incredible. And I think maybe hopefully it would move towards that where we all end up with a great thing that we love to go to, a great product. I think everyone who's been to goodness in the last three games just on the atmosphere. The hair going too massively important as is all yours but we'll just use the atmosphere a bit because I think sub-fans will go. I know that's saved us. It's in your face though isn't it? It's in your face. People are going oh my god that atmosphere is incredible. Being able to do that and being able to harness that people can see. People will love that now and we're talking about that throughout the summer. How amazing was that? How amazing were the flares and how amazing was the coach welcome and I think if people use that as evidence of what can be done. You should be absolutely applying for people to be part of it. I can say to me the first game of next season, the new normal, this new normal to me is now buying a 10 pack of cans from the shop. I'm going to sit outside the Trinity statue with about 15 flares and just wait for the bus. Exactly, that's the new normal to me. Imagine if you start the season with that, you can get the atmosphere a bit electric and incredible and so. Therefore go on and just give me those dates against you. If you want to be part of it and you want to get on it and make change then why wouldn't you do it? It is a time commitment, that's one thing we will say, but it is as much as you can give. We meet monthly with the club but there's the project route meeting so that's where the extra time comes in and obviously we have emails, social media management. It's basically like a part time job in your spare time for some but again it's as much as you want to give but if you want to apply, which I'd encourage everyone to apply, by the 30th of May so Monday is the application process, go on the event website and you'll see it and there's a couple of questions to submit and then the interviews are between the 6th and the 10th of June and then it goes to the fan vote. So this is where, I'll be honest for me last year, I didn't fully realise it felt a bit like the X factor. I had to start selling myself on social media but that's part of it, I just was, be honest, be your true self, say who you are, what you want to do and what you want to bring to the forum and that vote is between the 13th and the 24th of June. And then the three people who are voted for by the fans will then join us on the 30th of June. So all within a month you'll be part of it. Excellent, excellent, big thanks for coming in and doing that. So if you want to be part of it, that's simple, like Siobhan said, get on the event website, go on and see a couple of questions and off you go, you're in the running and you could be sat here and so on. You've changed everything for the good and will all be delighted with itself. Big thanks to Siobhan and Barry for coming in, make sure you do that and we will see you later.