All right. Good evening, everyone. It's 635. I know a few people are still coming in, but I think we want to respect everyone. For being here. Kathy, if that's okay with you, we can at least start introductions. Perfect. So good evening, everyone. I'm going to quickly share my screen and I think Kathy, Shane, the chair of the school building committee would just like to say a few words. You have to unmute Kathy. Brian, I believe you have. Thank you. Thank you. Yonah had control of. That's okay. It's, it's my children would like a mute button like that. I was just going to say I never have that control. So I want to welcome everyone. I think as I saw people coming in, I think I know many of you, but I'm the chair of the school building elementary school building. Program project. And we have a fabulous committee. And I am basically turning the whole meeting over to Donna, who is the chair of the school building committee. And I'm going to turn it over to Donna. And I'm going to turn it over to the Dinesco and the Dinesco team and she will introduce our team that are working with us as we enter this final lap of the beginning lap of the school. It's been a very exciting project. And I don't think any further ado. I don't want to say very much more, but I will say that the charts that you're going to see tonight, they have sent us emails with your reviews, with your analysis, with your questions. We appreciate all the public participation. And I thank you, Donna. It's back to you. Thank you. So I just want to make sure I tried to move my window around. I don't, can everyone just thumbs up can see the screen. Now, all right. Let me change it back then. Of course. I mucked it up there with me for one second then. Is it everyone able to see my screen? Perfect. Okay. So good evening, everyone. Again, thank you, Kathy. My name is Donna Dinesco with Dinesco design. With us this evening is Tim Cooper, who's a project manager with Dinesco design. And we have Margaret Wood with. Answer our owner's project manager. And I'm going to start with you. I'm going to start with you. I'm going to start with you. Rick Rice is actually on vacation. So good for him. And Vivian was unable to attend as well. But we first would just like to say thank you. To the entire community for all of your participation. Being in attendance and many, many, many of these meetings. And. Your sharing of questions, which have really helped us understand what we're going to do. And I'm going to start with you. I'm going to start with you. I'm going to start with you. I'm going to start with you. I'm going to first. Facilitate and provide the information to you. So. This evening, what we just quickly like to do is we have a little bit more of an update for you. We have developed phasing diagrams, site phasing diagrams to show. Everyone how each. Option renovation edition or new construction would work at both Fort River. And then we have received updated budget information, cost information. So we'll be sharing that with you. And then what's really important to note and for us, this is a really huge and exciting milestone. I think it's a little nerve wracking to the community, but on Monday. The elementary school building committee will be selecting a preferred solution or the preferred option. And then we'll have a final decision for us to bring before the MSBA to make a final decision. And acceptance so that we can then actually start designing the school. So. With that. Oh, and then lastly is we actually have the evaluation criteria. That the building committee will be analyzing and using to come, to come to that preferred solution. And then we'll have a final decision. And then we'll have a final decision. You all to let us know what is important to you as we start looking at and ranking the criteria. For, for the preferred solution. So with that, Tim, I'm going to turn it over to you. Thanks. So just a few general comments about the phasing diagrams. We're going to be looking at that. For both of the new construction options, construction will start in August of 24. And then we'll start in August of 26 with the remainder of the site and demolition of the existing building. Happening in the fall of 26. And then with renovation and addition options. Start will be in August of 24. And work will happen in phases through spring of 27. All of these diagrams are based on the building layout, parking requirements. Outdoor play. And learning spaces as we understand them now, as we design the building. So just those could all have an effect on these preliminary diagrams. So we're going to start with a renovation addition option on the Fort River site. So you can see here what would be phase one starting in August of 2024. And we'll look at early packages to get the contractor on site as soon as possible. But the area on the south of the site that in the red line would be attached to the building. It's not going to be dispensed off and be the exclusive area of the contractor for his work. For demolition of the existing portion of the building containing. The. Cafeteria administration's weeds in the kindergarten. Installation of temporary facilities that would allow the building. To continue to function. worn down in the initial phase and installation of a geothermal well field that would allow the building to function completely under its own power after the initial phase. You'll notice that the contractor and school access to the sites are indicated and they would be separated. Also contractor access to the site would be restricted during drop-off and pickup times for a further layer of separation during the busiest times of the day. And then school in the existing building north of the contractor would function as it does now. There would probably be some accommodation that would have to be made. Lunches would probably be served in the classroom as it was done for COVID and the play area adjacent to the building on the northern half of the site would be maintained for recess including the hard state player north of the building. Parking and drop-off functions would be slightly modified from the existing operations. Currently parents drop off south of the building and buses drop off on the west of the building. Both of those functions would happen along the parking lot on the west of the building during the construction phase. After the initial phase is complete in January 26, the contractor would move to the northern portion of the site with the students occupying the newly completed addition on the southern part of the site. The existing classroom wing would have some demolition in the center to get light into the building. The classrooms would all be completely rebuilt and the playground and athletic fields on the northern part of the site would be completed while the contractor has that area for their exclusives. During this time, the entire southern part of the site would be available for use for school activities. So Tim, I just want to interrupt and I apologize if I wasn't clear in my introduction. Right now what we're looking at is we have two sites to consider which is actually I know there's a little bit of anxiety about which site, but you actually have two sites, the Fort River and Wildwood site that is a decision needs to be made as well as a renovation addition or a new school on either site. So it's almost like renovation addition or new construction. And then a second conversation is which site, Fort River or Wildwood. So I apologize for not being clear at the beginning. Sorry, Tim. Go ahead. And this second phase of construction would be completed in the spring of 27. And then during the both phases of construction as available, the parking would be used for the school. And during summers when there is no school parking, the contractor could reconfigure the parking into its final state so that it will serve the new building. And here's a look at a completely done site plan once the contractor is off the site in the spring of 27. So the other option on the table is completely new building, which would be built adjacent to the existing and fully occupied school, the contractor area for the first phase in this method is slightly smaller, but it's still ample to give the contractor all of the room they would need to one build a building and do all of the site work on the southern portion of the site. As with the renovation addition option, contractor and school traffic would be separated. There would be the same limitations at drop off and pick up to keep any conflict between the different types of traffic to a minimum. And then with this option, there's a larger portion of the northern part of the site for play during construction. So here in June of 26, after the building is complete, the contractor would move to the northern portion of the site to complete that site work and demolish the existing building potentially before the start of school in the fall of 26. And that work would continue into the fall of 26. And as with the renovation addition option on Fort River, the parking would most likely be built in phases as available over the three summers of the project and finished in the fall of 26. Moving to the other potential site, Wildwood, we have looked at both renovation addition and new construction options on the site starting with renovation addition. It's similar in that there will be two phases, but you can see that the Wildwood site is considerably smaller than Fort River. So the initial phase will take up at least half of the site. The same process would happen in terms of demolition of the portion of the building with the administration suite, cafeteria and kindergarten classrooms. The contractor would have the support of the site to install the geothermal well shown to be southeast. And this would allow the building to be fully functional after phase one. Phase two, the contractor would continue work and renovate the classroom wing. The access of school traffic and construction traffic would be flipped. And there would be a temporary parking area to serve the school during phase two. Due to the smaller site at Wildwood, there is not enough room potentially to build all of the parking in its final condition during the two phases. So there might have to be a temporary parking area as shown here. So picking it up with the second phase of a renovation addition at Wildwood. The contractor has moved to the northern part of the site. The geothermal field is installed on the southern. I should have pointed out before that it exists under a play space here now. It can also exist under parking areas. Once it's installed, it's five to six feet below the surface. And you'll never know. It's there from occupying the site. We go to the next slide, please. So because the Wildwood site is smaller, there is a third phase where an area will have to be granted exclusive access to the contractor so that they can put the remainder of the parking into its final disposition. So into the summer of 27, there will be an area with a renovation addition on Wildwood that will be closed off from school use, but a small portion of the site. And then if we go to the final configuration. In a spinal state, there would be separate parking and drop off routes for both parking, both bus traffic and parent drop off. So the school with the larger enrollment would function similar to the way that it does today. So now going through a new building on the Wildwood site. What is currently the player is south. And the site would be the site for the building. It would be nestled into the hill a little bit with a retaining wall holding back the earth. The geothermal well field would be under the existing parent drop off parking, which would eventually become one of the parking areas for the school. And during this first phase, as with the other phases and the other options, contractor and school, vehicle traffic would be separated from each other. The same limitations would apply to when contractors could go on and off the site. I should mention that the fence between the existing building and the construction activities will be opaque and safe for the children on site. As we move to phase two of a new building on the Wildwood site, the building would be complete in June of 26. And then during the summer before school is occupied in the fall, the building would be demolished and the extent and northern portion of the site with play areas and playgrounds and parking would be finished into the fall of 26th and spring of 27th. And as with the renovation addition option, there would be a final stage where the drop off loop and the parking is completed in summer of 27th. And as the geothermal wells were placed under the playground in the rental add option, they are placed under the parking and drop off loop here, both of which function equally well in terms of their performance in the building. I don't know if we want to. Yeah, so why don't we pause here and I apologize for the disruption. And so we want to go back to any of the slides, but we thought now would be a good time while the construction phasing diagrams. We've just gone through them. If anyone has any questions or thoughts as it relates to the phase and construction phasing for either site and for either an addition, renovation or new construction, I apologize. I it says ID. I don't recall your name. But go right ahead. Yes, I'm sorry. I was just remaining minutes. I mean, no, that's me. Thank you. I have a question. It's a very fortunate lead that in none of the blueprints of Wildwood, the slope is marked on the side. I'm wondering how does it affect? I don't know. I drive there quite often. Like it seems that the parking would be on the slope or is that's wrong? Because the slope is quite sharp. The slope is dramatic on the northern portion of the site from. But even on the side of by the driveway, when we're driving the school, there's a big drop off between the current driveway and the current parking lot. There's a big height difference there. So I wish that you had marked the profile lines on the height. So then it's easy to understand with respect to current situations. How does it affect? I understood and you are correct. There is a slope on both the access drive and from strong street down on the green area and even to the east of the site from the path and where the building is shown. And that is a consideration for the parking in this configuration. The parking lot will slope up to the drive aisle and the play areas will be flat to a certain point. But then at the beginning of the shaded area, the grass will slope up to the road. But as laid out now, everything will be within, you know, accessible tolerance for the slope of drive lanes, the slope of sidewalks. And as we get into the design, absolutely, everything will be documented. But at this level, we do general checks to make sure that we can work with the slope. But you are correct. There will be recreating that has to happen to make all of this work on site. And that is built into the project. Sarah, Marcia. Yeah, thank you. Maybe I missed it. Did you show then a new school at Fort River? Yes, let me go back to that. Oh, I must have stepped out. It's OK. No, not a problem. So we did have a little bit of disruption here. So what we have here is the phase one would be to fence off the southern portion of the site where it says contractor parking, the geothermal well field would be constructed. The hashed red line is the contractor area. And as Tim mentioned for both sites, a lot of the same construction methods are going to occur at both sites. But the this is going to be a fenced area so that there will be a clear separation and safety for staff and students. The contractor would enter on the southern entrance of the site and the school occupants would also come in and out through the north and south entrances. So phase one would be developing, constructing the new school. Phase two, as soon as the new school is open, the school would move into it and we would then move the contractor area to the north of it. Again, just switch the fence line. The contractor over the summer of June of twenty six would demolish the existing building and then complete the extra playground areas and the athletic fields to the north of the site. And because we're actually maintaining a lot of the existing parking, we're just going to as as much as we can over summers during the construction so that it doesn't interfere with the use of the parking during the school year over the three summers in the fall to just complete the parking. And that would be right right now from the schematic or concept level. This would be the completed site. Did you have any questions to that, Sarah or no. No, thank you. Must have been before the hiatus. I know, I'm sorry. Well, good to good to see the new ones back to back. So thank you. You're welcome. Does anyone else have any other comments? Pam, let me unmute you. There you go. You should be able to. Thank you. Can you hear me? Yeah. OK, thanks. I wasn't able to show a raised hand. I appreciate it. I really appreciate all the work that you've done to sort of lay out these options and, you know, compare apples to apples. I I looked at just one of the things I I looked at just one thing that that was striking to me in this phasing, which was very helpful. And that is that I'm I'm trying to compare the outdoor space for the children during the during the construction at either site. And I'm really just focusing on new construction because I, you know, anyway, I really like the fact that during phase one of of Fort River, there is a decent amount of outdoor play space, including the ball field, right? As shown in the cursor, whereas the construction site, obviously, including the well field is out of commission. And so that that looks like it's for fall 24, spring 25, summer fall 25 and spring 26. So that's roughly four semesters that the kids have under place there. At phase two of Fort River, where we've already gone to that, I was looking that the outdoor play space south of the building, probably the fields aren't available, but the hard the hard surface and the developed areas are and maybe the geothermal well could get built and capped and seeded, perhaps in your 20, 20, I don't know, for maybe maybe 20, 25 and get a head start on growing grass. If I if I look at Wildwood, if you're able to pull up Wildwood. Yeah. And Pam, if I could, you picked up on that. I don't I don't think that we adequately commented on the playfield. So thank you for pointing out just just for everyone's benefit. What Pam is referring to is when we complete the fields, there's a growing season that's required before you can actually use the fields. This is all with the assumption for now, as we're really honed in on the cost of this, that that this is not sawed, that it's it's strictly grass and seed. So, yes, there's a whole nother growing season that the fields would not be. Thank you, Pam, for pointing that out. So in Wildwood and phase one, I actually don't see any outdoor play space for the children. And that would be for roughly the same four semesters of let's go to let's go to the new new construction. Sorry, rather. Oh, sorry. Yes. Yeah, yeah. So during new construction, even there there is no outdoor play space, the the area to the north of the building's parking lot. So I I that's for four semesters. Then if we go to phase two, the area immediately around the building is predominantly developed or hardscape areas and very little fields because there are no fields that's right up against the edge of that hill. So the the play area outdoor play space for fields doesn't happen for another three semesters given given the fact that you need to grow the grass again. I I don't know about the the mental health health of the children and I really and truly don't know about the mental health of the faculty having kids indoors for seven semesters, but I would feel very badly trying to deal with kids who do not have outdoor play space for seven semesters. That that. You are correct that there is very limited play area for the students during the entire. Construction period, the basketball hardscape area on either side of the gym, plus the area, the green area, you know, right right after that would be available. There may be some opportunities use use some of the area, Tim, I think we were saying that's approximately an acre of the area that includes the basketball courts of the east of the building and the and the portion of the green that is flat before you get to the hill, it's it's just about an acre, which is, you know, the size of a decent playground, but it is not by any means the area that it would is available now. So yeah, and you probably have to put up something to keep me separated from the parking area. So anyway, I just wanted I was struck by that as I looked through the phasing and I said, I think we should kind of, you know, confirm these numbers and understand what the children have to go through during construction at each of these two phases, two sites. So thank you. Thanks for the diagram. And I think Rudy Perkins. Rudy, if you can hear us. Yeah, can you hear me now? Sure can. Perkins Amherst. It looks to me from your phasing diagrams for Fort River that you'll you would have fenced separation of the driveways or else separate entrances for the driveways for the contractor and the school parking. Am I reading that right? If you go to the new construction, yeah, that phase one, is the fence line separating actually the school egress and the contractor egress? And that it would separate, there would be a gate at the. Area at the end. So on the Fort River, we'd have really separate from the street contractor and school egress, whereas at Wildwood, it looks like a contractor and the school are sharing the driveway along with the Head Start building, halfway down the driveway. If I got that right, that is really separate, yeah, so at Wildwood. So just to stay at Fort River and then we'll jump. Yeah, our our thought and intent is to expand the entrance. Yeah, and make this wider so that we could have three lanes of traffic. Right, so yeah, yeah, I like that. I'm not arguing with just just for clarification for everyone. And then if we go to. It pick and I'll let me let me go to new construction. Here, there would be one way and out for the contractor and one way and out for the use of the school at the parking area, but not down the length of the driveway from the street. Correct. So what we commonly do, Rudy, is we restrict the contractor from driving during drop off and pick up so that they do not interfere with drop off and pick up, right? So we'll say, OK, you can get on the site, but no vehicles from seven forty five to eight forty five so that there's there's no interference with drop off and pick up. And then on drop off and on the pickup side, we would enforce the same. Yeah, that's a good idea. I just think that physical separation is is better at Fort River than the Wildwood plan, just because you don't have the room to do it with only one entrance in it, you know, by anyway. Yeah, that's a very good observation. Thank you. Yeah, thank you. And does anyone else have, Rudy, I think your hands just still left over. Does anyone else have any other comments, questions? And all of this is we want to say preliminary. You know, we have not selected a construction method, whether it be design, bid, build or C.M. However, and either construction delivery method, I should say, our goal would be to have an early site enabling package so that we could get ahead and prep the site over the summer. You can see we anticipate the drawings in the bidding to be completed and construction start August of 24. But to take advantage of the month of July, let's just say, we will probably have a site enabling package, a totally separate package that would allow us to at least start to prep the contractor area, put up the fence so that in September, when the students come back for end of August, that that separation is clear and obvious to everyone. And Amber, one second, go ahead, Amber. Hi. Yeah, thank you so much for your presentations and all the hard work. I just have a question about I know you're presenting four different options and are there like significant cost differences between the rental versus the new? And I mean, I guess, like, what are some of the as well? Like ecological impacts, I guess, of, you know, demolishing everything and starting new is how significant is that? Or, you know, can you just explain those factors a little bit? Sure, we'll be jumping into the cost in a second, right? So you're getting ahead of us, but that's OK. Ecologically, Tim, do you want to talk a little bit about that? I mean, to describe the options in terms of embodied carbon, there is probably a higher cost in terms of new construction. That's just a fact. Ecologically, if you're talking about the impact on stormwater management, native habitats, stuff like that, all of those things would be considered in the design of both options and preserve and maintain to the extent possible. And then there's also the consideration of carbon use going forward as the building is heated and cooled over its lifetime. And from that respect, a new building performs a little bit better. So it depends on your particular lens of how you're viewing the buildings interaction with the environment. And I think just to add to that, you can see that the building footprint is probably about half, maybe a little bit more than half of the existing current footprint. And then the way that we propose addressing the stormwater on the sites really provides wonderful opportunities for learning. These will be swales will be collecting the water. I'm not sure if you were attended the last presentation, but these would be small or shallow swales that with all natural habitat and and. You know, local plants, et cetera. So so that it actually would enhance the site as as we develop that that actually would be whether it was a renovation, addition or new construction. But I just want to point out that any option that there will be improvements to either site. Thank you. All right. So I'm just excited to hear about the money. So does anyone else have any other questions? I don't. See any. So and if anyone thinks of anything, we're always happy to come back to this. So, Margaret, do you want to start this off?  OK, hi, everyone. I'm Margaret Wood. I'm the owner's project manager. And I am just going to say a little bit about the process. The way the MSBA requires us to document the cost of the project at this level and at the next couple of levels through the process is to actually get two estimates. So what happens is Dinesco Design has an estimating partner and we have an estimating partner and they basically estimate separately and then we meet and sort of do what's called a reconciliation, looking at the costs line by line. So for the purposes of what Donna and Tim are going to show you tonight, we're looking at the estimate that was developed by their estimator, who's considered the estimator of record. But I just want to reassure everyone that these numbers have been checked against another estimator who is both of these estimators who are involved are very experienced with school building projects in Massachusetts, and the numbers actually came out very, very close. So for consistency's sake, these estimates are by Anne Fogarty. And I think with that intro, I'm going to turn it back. The only other comment I would make is that as Donna and Tim will show you, there's, you know, several different levels. There's the subcontractor cost, there's the general contractor cost. There are soft costs associated. And then they sort of all get rolled up in the project. But the Dinesco slides go into a fair level of detail. So I'm going to let Donna and Tim walk you through it. Great. Thank you. So we are currently at the study phase. So I think first what we would like to say is we have spent a lot of time on the site actually recognizing the challenges and the site attributes at both sites. So we've taken a really deep dive on on the costs of the site work. But because we haven't actually started drawing anything and have defined a lot. This preferred schematic or study cost estimates really are to help guide you to evaluate the alternatives from a cost perspective, right? So it's preliminary design pricing. It does include all of the town requirements. We'll go quickly go through that. And then, of course, the general site work. And what this will do is and we are confident both cost estimators do a lot of public MSBA K through 12 work as does Dinesco and answer. So we're very familiar what the costs are for this type of work. We spent some time walking through the basis of design, which is identifying standard materials and fixtures and the envelope of the building with certain parameters with the building committee. So we feel good for not having anything necessarily drawn what these prices are. So what we've done is we've developed actually three different options for both sites. We have an addition renovation option. We have a three story new school construction option and a two story new construction option, both on Fort River and Wildwood site. The new schools will not exceed 105,750. That that is the prescribed method with MSBA. We have the educational program. And then there's a one point five multiplier to that. So that's our our committed square footage number that we would not exceed. The addition renovation is a little less efficient. So it's slightly more. So these prices that are before you right now are using a CM at risk delivery construction method, delivery method. We have actually split out when in addition with cost and what it costs to renovate the building. Then we have for the new schools, the cost of the new school construction. We have demolition broken out. And then we have hazardous materials and abatement work that is also broken out per site. We've also broken out the site work per phase and or per option or concept and site. And you'll see that the numbers range anywhere from six point nine to eleven point seven. We've included the TVs or photovoltaics, as you can see for each option. And in the past, we were showing those before the subcontractor costs, after the subcontractor costs. But we've rolled in as we've heard that it was confusing before we've actually rolled those into the subcontractor or direct cost of work. And we have spent quite a bit of time evaluating this with an EUI target of twenty five and also utilizing the ground source heat pumps. We know what the roof area is that would be available for PVs and then what the PV canopies would be on the site. So the amounts actually do differ a little bit. But they go down with the two story because we have more roof area. And then we have the new the three the three story actually is a little bit more because we don't have as much roof. The buildings more compact. So we we need to provide more PVs for the canopies. And then for the ground source heat, we'll be using a geothermal well field. And these are direct correlation to the needs of a building as far as the shape, the geometry and the efficiency of each option. So you have a subcontractor cost running below. And this is the what we call the direct cost of the work. And then the contractor has markups, which at this point also include design contingency, escalation and a bunch of other. They have general conditions and their profit. And so you'll see that those numbers are reflective. And it's typically a percentage of the direct costs. So then what you have is your pretty much your total construction cost running along here. And we understand that there's a commitment, a percent for art for two hundred and fifty thousand dollars. So we are continuing to include that in the costs. So if we look at the least expensive to the most expensive wildwood site for an addition renovation is approximately eight point five million, it goes up to eighty eight point five. Wouldn't that be nice? Eighty one point five million. News three story building is eighty two point nine million. And a new schools new two story schools slightly more at eighty three point seven million. At Fort River, you'll see that the driver because the building costs are all pretty much the same. What we have is the site costs are more. There's a more site area and what we need to do to address the high water table is that the low cost is eighty four point seven million for a new three story to eighty six million for a two story and then eighty six point eight million for our ad rental. Then we add in what we call the soft costs or or the you know, the soft costs, which there's a multiplier right now at this point. It's a typical multiplier of one point two five of the construction costs. These include fees, town agency reviews, has hazardous material, Bateman oversight. A lot of the cost is in furniture and equipment and the instructional technology. It includes contingencies and construction testing and oversight. And so when you add it all together, your range for total project cost at this point, starting with the lowest of at Wildwood for an addition renovation of one hundred and one million. One hundred and two million dollars incrementally, slight increments going up for a three story and a two story new construction is actually a little bit more than a three story. And then over at Fort River, the least expensive option is actually a three story new school at one hundred and five million. Two stories, a little bit more. And then an addition renovation is the most expensive. We started looking at opportunities to reduce the overall construction cost. And there are two methods that were allowed for public construction, chapter one forty nine. Our options are traditional one forty nine design bid bill. That's where we actually put together all of our construction documents, put it out to bid. Contractors will bid on it based on price. And that that's it. That that's how that works. If we do the CM at risk, there's some added expenses. And then there's some added benefits. Collectively, our project team with answer believe that the design bid build for new construction is absolutely worth consideration for this project. We understand both sites are tight. We have done this for other school projects that have very similar attributes, site attributes, so we're confident that we could deliver the project in a safe manner for your staff and students utilizing a design bid build construction. And what you'll see is there's a savings of approximately eight percent as it relates to new construction. So if we do move forward with a new school versus a renovation addition and we do utilize the design bid build construction delivery method, the prices for your total project range from ninety five point three million dollars for a new three story building at Wildwood to ninety eight point nine million dollars at the Fort River School site for a new two story school. It's it's a lot to take in. So I think we'll just pause and I've got Margaret standing behind a little facilitate if I if I spoke architectural speak and and you need some clarifications if anyone has any questions, Doug. But I had Doug. Yeah, I just wondered what escalation rate you're assuming to midpoint of construction. You've got me off guard. I so it's it's we this is one of the things we actually discussed with the estimators together during the reconciliation and I believe it's eight and a half percent. So typically collectively, yeah, collectively. What you do is it's it's on an annual basis and it is projected through the midpoint of construction when the assumption is that everything has been bought out bought out by the contractor. But that is what's being carried here. And I think I would just like to add that the direct cost before the escalation is added in, which is actually part of the soft costs is that the direct costs are actually also already inflated. So there's a to where we think it currently is, right? So even though we don't have actuals right now. So is that if that helps? Did I just confuse things, Margaret? Well, his hand went down. So I'm guessing I'm hoping that that means that we got the answers. Thank you, Doug. Yeah, you know, if our estimators could tell us if if they could predict where this market's going, they wouldn't be sitting in their office doing this work as much as everyone else right now. But we're all pretty much in the market and see what's occurring as much as the costs have increased even from three months ago. And and and they have increased from three months ago. We would say that Amherst is fortunate not not to be out there trying to construct this building right now. It's it's just not cost right now that's creating. Yeah, all of the issues. Yeah, I just I just want to also add that built into this. These numbers are designed in construction contingencies as well as as real construction contingencies that are for things that can occur during construction. So I think a very reasonable concern for people looking at these is like, you know, oh, my goodness, is is this number real? I would say the number as Donna just said is a little bit inflated because the estimators are very leery for good reason of what's happened in the market in the last two last year and a half. But I think at this level, what we want people to be looking at is the relative the relative cost because the same approach to the estimate has been taken with every option. So as we move forward into the next phase of developing the preferred option that the building committee will select, we will really have an opportunity to spell out in more detail what contingencies and buffers are built into these numbers to protect the town. OK, so Doug's hand has gone up again. So go ahead, Doug. Thanks. So is it is it fair to say, based on your previous slide with the line items that the primary difference between the sites is the size of the site and the site cost and the provisions that you need to make to accommodate the various site conditions at Fort River, which seem not only larger, but you've got the high water table. Otherwise, the two sites are quite similar. So, you know, whereas Ms. Rooney had pointed out the lesser playing fields at Wildwood during construction, the larger site at Fort River that gives you the play fields during construction comes at a higher cost because there's just more site to deal with. So to me, it's also to me it's there's a there's additional space outdoor space that is included in that project. So the scope is is different in the sense that the, you know, the sheer area of outdoor space that will be that is built into the Fort River site is bigger. And there is a price tag that reflects that. All right, thank you. I did want to ask one more. Or just as a follow up to comment about play fields. Have you, are you allowed to think about some of the play fields that are to the south of the Wildwood site that you may be count or considering to be exclusively the middle school fields as you develop your scenarios for, you know, interim play fields during construction? Yeah, absolutely. And we didn't want to factor that in right now because the town doesn't own that field, right? Don't own the fields that belongs to the regional middle school. And while what is selected, we will continue to or begin to have those conversations with the regional middle school to understand what we can be used there, what we can use those fields for. We have preliminary conversations that they said the field directly. Let me just go to that slide. No, this hurt this. I don't know if this keeps showing up, but the fields to the west of the tennis courts are not used for the middle school academic or PEs. So they were saying those are fine. We could maybe work with them, but that's the middle school talking. So we have to, and I believe the regional school committee has also been receptive to starting to have those conversations. I do want to point out with that added field space comes added cost though. So in order to access those fields, it's about a 15 foot drop. So what we would need to do is provide an accessible route and path down to those fields. So there would be, I don't, significant. I mean, we're there would be added cost to making those that field available and it's also our understanding that that field and that whole area is wet. So we would want to improve that area if it's going to be used for the students at the Wildwood site. So yes, more fields, but again, almost going back to exactly what Margaret was saying, more site just adds more cost. Thank you. Thank you. Irene. Yes, thank you. I wanted to ask a question. Actually, if you look at the table, if you take off the site cost, the Wildwood is higher cost because you have higher hazmat cost, right? The construction. So if you were comparing same, I was in the feasibility study for River. So when we did that, we had a much smaller scope and we only look at, I think around the school, we didn't include all the fields. So the site cost was in part of what had been for Wildwood or less. So I think it has to be clear that when we are comparing building part seems that Wildwood would be higher. The fact that you're having a twice bigger site. That increases the cost, but the town is getting, I don't know, 14 acres of improved sites that hundreds of kids, I don't know, all the kids in town, I guess use them for soccer and ultimate and things throughout. So I think we have to be careful when we look at the numbers because yes, we get maybe a 2% increase, but at the same time, we're improving the life of all the kids that not only go to the school, but they use the fields. I was yesterday in Fort River and there was a play of the middle school and high school playing ultimate over there. So everybody would get improved fields to use throughout the whole year. I think we have to be careful. The previous person was mentioning all what would be cheaper, but actually the construction cost because of Hasmat is higher. So if you were comparing the apple stoppers and sites comparison. I think I would put it as a Fort River plus site plus fields and then Wildwood. So I think we have to be careful when we do distinctions. That's my. Yes, and I that that is exactly the point. I think right. I mean that there's just more site there. There had been conversation about maybe we don't need to improve the entire Fort River site. However, as you could see from the diagrams of the phasing that the contractors going to be disrupting like pretty much the whole site. So at that point, we really need to replace it at minimum and kind, but raising it by a foot and providing the proper drainage is worth doing as opposed to just putting it back to the way it is. Yeah. Okay. So with that, I don't know if anyone has any other questions. What we'd like to say is bringing us forward that what now we're actually coming to a pretty critical time in the project where the building committee school building committee Monday will be making a decision on what the preferred solution is. If it's a renovation addition or new construction, and is it going to be on Fort River or is it going to be on Wildwood? So there's really like four decisions that will need to be made. With that, we do want to first say that when we look at the evaluation criteria that here's the chart to the right of the screen that's been developed and it's quite detailed and it's been extremely well thought out that all design options are going to achieve your net zero energy bylaw. Of course, it's going to meet building codes, including safe entrance and accessibility. And most importantly, it's going to meet the educational program. We've developed the categories and for different categories, I guess I should say that include equity and transition, educational building site, construction impacts and communities. But then in having many conversations, it was clear that not every single criteria has the same value or weight when you're looking at which option makes the most sense. So we did do the committee develop what are the higher priority and have the higher weighting as it relates to every one of the criteria. So not, these aren't in any particular order, total cost, which option minimizes construction duration and minimizes the impact on students, what the educational benefits of the location adjacency, optimizes energy efficiency, maximizes efficient use of the site, outdoor play space, and then flexibility for future enrollment. So what we would like you to do is for you all to weigh in as well. And we would like to know what is important to you and we would like you to weigh in on these criteria. So for those of you who have been with us before and those that are new, just a reminder, if you could go to menti.com and enter the code up here or use your phone to screen shot on the screen, you'll go ahead and you can use the QR code. So we'll give everyone a few minutes to jump in. There we go. So what we've done is we've identified six items that we really feel that are the most important to the community or the building committee. These are their highest ranking priorities.  And what we're asking is just to use one number only once. So don't put in all sixes. We know they're all really important, but we want to know what your highest priorities are. So we'll give everyone a few minutes to go ahead and rank their priorities and see a couple of hands are raised Irene. Yes, can you clarify what maximizes maximizes efficient use of the site? Is it because maximizing maybe put a larger building and finish the whole building? What do you mean with that? Mark, I don't know if you want to jump in this. Oh, it's people already starting to jump in here. This would be, you know, really making the best use of the site, right? Having having the most open space or the most as it relates to either option, right? As opposed to all parking, the existing building utilizes more space. Margaret, I don't know if you want to chime in. Yeah, Irene, you're exactly right. It's really perhaps a sort of, the subtext is if you have a smaller building footprint, going to have more outdoor space. So perhaps we should have stated it more simply, but you're exactly right. So what you'll see here is this will actually, if I hover over these kind of a neat tool, we'll show us who's voting, what? And we understand this is an extremely small sampling, but it's interesting to see where people's priorities are. So minimizes construction duration. You know, that's, we've got some ones, twos, threes, fours, zero, five, one at six. Oh, come on. We'll give everyone some time. The more importantly, what it's looking like is the construction impact on students is more important than the duration of the construction. You can see that we have people voting six, five, four, a couple in the twos. And then optimizes energy, which we understand is critically important to the community. And then maximizes the efficient use site. It's actually a little bit over where you have five. They're saying that's the, they're least price, the least priority out of the six as, as you look at ranking it, one being the low and six being the high. And then the outdoor space for play and education. That actually is receiving the highest. Number of first priorities right now. So I can't tell how many people I could add them all up, but I'm not, but I think things are shifting a little bit. So maybe we'll just wait a couple of more minutes. I think the number of people might be 15. That have voted. I'm not sure if that's accurate. And this will, we're recording the session. I think we'll take out the area that we've been, we were quiet and then pull it all together. And we'll be posting this and, and again, you know, we understand this is a very small sampling of the town and everyone's. Priorities, but it's just a kind of a good visual for. The building committee to weigh in on. And I think some people were asking if. There was another method to provide input and comments and there is. So we'll share that with you as well. If, if you're uncomfortable or would prefer to put something right in. And we have 18. People. When you. Donna, I have done so 22 people in the audience. So I think we're pretty close. Perfect. We spoke too soon. All right. So 19 people have weighed in. So. This is really helpful and, you know, again, small sampling, but. It will show you. That people's priorities. You know, kind of just really, really range. So upcoming meetings and activities tonight, June 9th. We have the community forum on Monday, June 13th. The building committee will be meeting. And a perfect, the preferred alternative. We will, with that information, we will then need a couple of weeks to put together the preferred schematic report that we'll be submitting to MSBA. And then we'll be bringing it back to the building committee on June 24th. For them to vote on the entire preferred schematic report to submit to MSBA. That is due to MSBA on the 27th of June. And then MSBA, assuming they approve it. They will be voting on August. 31st. So Donna, can I talk about the next step to that? So. The, the, the, this stage. So there are three big stages of the feasibility process that we're in the PDP, which preferred preliminary design program, which went in in March. This document, which is going in June. What happens next is, I think going to be really exciting for everyone. And I would say it's going to be a little bit of a yes and no. I'm going to be a little bit more of a little bit of a, a little bit more of a elevator elevator and elevator elevator. And I want to reiterate, as I said before, the thing amrs is very lucky to have two sites. To choose from and multiple options. But it, it's definitely. You know, caught. Can cause some anxiety. I think for some folks. But I think we're very close to a decision. So the next step is going to be. Developing. to what's called the schematic design level, which is still a fairly early level in the overall design process. But the goal is to develop the design sufficiently to really get a detailed cost that can be depended on for the purposes of the local vote. So I think as many of you may know there's going to be a debt exclusion vote on this project, and that debt exclusion vote will happen in the spring. We don't have a confirmed date, but I'm guessing it will be March or early April. So the designers will have from the time of the submittal to roughly December to develop the design, to develop the estimates related to that to have, we'll have a number of additional community meetings, and then that will allow us to sort of bring it to the voters for their decision. And as the slide shows then once that vote occurs, assuming that it is in support of the project, there is a more detailed design process that produces the construction documents, which are the basis of bidding the project, and then construction. So we anticipate if the voters do approve the project in the early spring, that the building will be under construction starting the summer of 2024 and completed in the fall, in the summer or fall of 2026 or early 2027, depending on the option that is selected. And just to add to that, we had to make certain assumptions for the study in the preferred schematic reports, such as what type of mechanical system or is it going to be air source heat pumps versus ground source heat pumps, right? So that conversation about how, what source of, I'm going to say electricity, I know that's wrong, but is it going to be ground source or air source will be used in the building? That will be spending a lot of time going through that during schematic design, as well as what is the building really going to look like? You are looking at line diagrams, right? So we will have three-dimensional hope fly-throughs. So after we will spend time picking materials and colors and the shape of the actual building, of course, being mindful of how it all interacts with the educational program and maintaining the best spatial relationships and adjacencies. But all of this will come together during schematic design, which will also help us hone and refine a budget. We will actually have a design that can be costed and it will just be a more solid cost estimate. Doug, go ahead, Doug. Yeah, I just realized that the criteria you had us vote on this evening were all criteria that are applied within the boundary of the site. You did not ask us to vote on any of the site criteria in terms of their geographic location in town and the transportation distances, that kind of thing. And I wondered whether the criteria that the committee will be using to select will include geographic considerations that are outside of the boundary of the site. Thank you. Thank you. Yes, actually, those are also criteria. Oh, Kathy, you want to go right ahead? Thank you. Kathy, if you'd like to speak. Hi, Doug. I'm chair of the committee. We will make sure anyone who's on sees that full criteria matrix. Those are indeed criteria. One of the things we've discovered between the two sites is some don't vary very much. So we looked at walkability, how many people can walk, and live close enough to at least in theory walk as well as how many do walk. We've been looking at bus routes if you needed to take a public bus if you didn't have a car. So we are looking at what is near what as well as what is on the site, what traffic is near the entrance and exits of the building. So we just what was picked out here is a few things vary quite a bit by our options. So it's easier to differentiate options if there's a difference. If you say they're all pretty similar, it doesn't, it's not that much of a tool, but those are all criteria and we will be, we have started to score them and compare them. So this is just a handful. And we didn't actually try to rank them one through six. We just said some things appeared to be more important than the 40 things we're measuring. So it wasn't, this is the most important. So thank you for the question because we did try to put as robust a set as we could that's important to the parents, to the students, to the teachers, to the staff, to the town. Tracy. Hi. So I have a somewhat related question.  And I didn't know whether it's really outside of the scope of this meeting a little bit of this as a forum. And I haven't been able to stay for the public comment at some of the meetings. But I was looking at the 400 plus page for traffic analysis report that came out a few weeks ago. And it seems to me, you know, as Kathy was saying that there, I mean, there are a lot of factors on the two sites and that the transportation one is probably not going to be the major factor. But just from a town perspective, one thing I've heard, you know, some of the town officials say is just talk about, you know, the outside of this project, just the different intersections near the two school sites and what upgrades might be needed at those intersections, both to make them safer and to help with traffic issues and so on. And as I was looking to report, I did have questions about the traffic analysis that was done in the projections. And maybe I mean, there are a lot of details, especially in the appendix, but one question I had is just, you know, as the people, no matter what the site is, like as the people who currently, for example, like live in North Amherst, and if the Fort Rivers site is chosen, if they, you know, they have to go to Fort River, I mean, and if, and for the people in Amherst Woods and so on, if Wildwood is chosen, then they have to get from Amherst Woods or way East Amherst over to Wildwood. It seems, when I was looking at the analysis, that in terms of the assumptions about how cars would make those trips, is that some of the, looking at the intersections that were studied in detail, that one thing, it didn't seem like it was considered that much would be the possibility that people making those trips, either from the North Amherst to Fort River or from Amherst Woods and East Amherst to Wildwood, that it's possible that quite a few people could travel along, say, Northeast Street and then Strong Street to make that connection. And if you look at the Google directions, a lot of times that would be the fastest route, just because, particularly along some sections of Route 9 and Main Street, that they just get so congested during the day, you know, even without construction. And so I was just curious, you know, the extent to which those had been explored. It didn't seem like that was such a big part of the model. Thanks. So, Tracy, I'm not sure if I'm going to be answering you specifically, but there, and obviously, if you read all 400 pages, you're definitely a transportation person. But, and we appreciate that, right? So, and that's why that's why it's out there. But based on the way the current routes are and where we were identifying, where the students would be coming based on the current maps, it's a little difficult to say where actual the families will be coming in four years in 2027. But I think the committee has recognized that there are, when we say transportation, we're just talking about traffic as opposed to public transportation, because we've also looked at the public transportation, right? So it's a little bit different, but that we recognize that there will be an impact on transportation. And as an aside to this, or in conjunction with this, we've started looking at ways that offsite traffic could be improved as, but the challenges right now, and it has not yet been defined, is, you know, right now, we're focusing on the cost of the project as it relates to the site. But we've actually gone as far as looking at how we can improve either the East Pleasant and Strong Street intersection area, as well as the East Main and the Main Street. So we have really actually studied that. And we could, as you probably know, that's like a whole nother project in and of itself. But we're aware of that. And we actually have some preliminary costs just to have a kind of ballpark. Is that, sorry, I mean, I'm you're okay. Does that I mean, yeah, I understand that. And again, like, I know it's not the major factor right now. It was just, I mean, just hearing town officials talk about, well, you know, particularly if some of the intersection conditions get worse, like that those would be added costs. So just trying to just think about that a little bit. Well, to say it's not a big consideration, I think we spent a good two meetings just talking about traffic. So so it is recognized. Kathy, I don't know if you wanted to add anything to that. But and it's it's on the radar screen, Tracy, you're absolutely correct. And I hope you stay involved of the town saying a few of these intersections we need to fix anyway, you know, even if we weren't talking about the school there. And the town recently has been amazingly adept at getting grants that fit particular areas. So I think as we focus on the decision, we can hone in on exactly what we need to do sooner rather than later. And we just, we, we have the sketchiest kind of estimates on this, but DPW and others are starting to look at it. So it's a it's the beginning rather than even a best guess estimate at this point. Thank you. Rudy. Thanks. I had a question on whether the second versus third story question three story versus two story can be postponed until the schematic design when when it's possible to see sort of what those could be in a little more detail, or whether that's sort of a necessary part of the upcoming PSR submission. Because I personally am at the point where, you know, the site seems obvious to me, it should be Fort River. The I've I've decided we really need to do new construction because the embodied carbon argument is kind of outweighed by the complexities of our energy, water, groundwater management and educational requirements. And we wouldn't, we'd be demolishing so much of the old building in the ad reno anyway, that I just don't think you get enough for your embodied carbon worries. But the second versus third story, there's a lot of pluses and minuses on both. And I'm wondering, does that have to be decided now, or can we wait? Thanks, Kathy. Yeah, I just want to say, you know, what one of you could take down this priorities thing, Donna, is we wanted to fit with the education program. And there was a strong consensus of the way the three story fit where which things were near each other. And I think we want to be guided by that so that we can start out the schematic design with. And this three story was had lots of really strong benefits to it. So I don't think we want to delay that decision. At least the plan right now is to make that decision. And I understood that MSBA would also like us to come in, say this is what we're planning on doing. So Donna and Margaret might want to come in. So I think we, we actually did a lot of vetting of possible layouts, but the particularly the way we can distribute special needs programs that they don't get isolated. There was a fifth grade, fourth grade cohort that works really well in a fifth grade. So there was a lot of time spent with thinking about what is near to what within the building. And I don't think we want to slow that process down. That's my opinion. Margaret. Yeah, go ahead. So it's not really, unfortunately, it's not an option. The MSBA that the requirement of the submission that we are getting ready to make is to bring a single option to the MSBA and I see Donna nodding. So I hear you, but I think it's not a choice that we can make here. Yeah, I think just, just to add to that, and what Kathy said, if there was a clear argument or persuasion that they, they both really need to be studied and explored in more detail, et cetera, we would probably obviously need more time during schematic design because that would be pretty much having to develop two sites or two site options, not Fort River Wildwood, but we would have to be developing a site both for a new construction of a two-story new construction of a three-story as well as bringing the project along. So we would actually probably need more time. But in this case, from what we've heard that there's from the school department is that there really were some benefits to a three-story over two-story as well. Thanks, Rudy. So I just, I am happy to take down the screen. I just wanted to point out, I know some people were asking that if they could put their questions or comments in writing, I think I'd probably receive five to 10 emails a day from Kathy with questions that people raise. So Kathy, is this the best place to submit questions and comments? And if you get them to us, we should hopefully be able to read them or have them before the vote on Monday. Um, yeah, you can do it through this website. There is a link. You can also email me directly. And it's my last name, then the letter C at Amherst, Matt, AmherstMA.gov. And I am doing scribe work for the whole committee. And I will make sure it goes to the whole committee if it's just a comment. If it is a an additional question or wanting clarification, I get them through to the design team. And I'm happy to do that. You know, we've been trying to collect them because Amherst is a fantastic community. Many of you have similar questions, so we try to group them. So it's not a lots of nuances, but we've been putting them in the minutes as well as questions have been answered along the way. So we're trying to keep a record of what's been asked and answered. So it's possible some of the questions you might have, we've already covered. Or we might not be able to answer just yet. Right, right. So when you email through the website, that email is coming to my office. And then I am forwarding it on to Kathy and if appropriate, it's going on to the building committee. Just see so you don't feel like you're emailing into the void. So we would love any additional comments as it relates to the vote that will be taken on Monday. Monday morning. It's anxious because you have options. And not every community actually has options. A lot of communities are like, how are we going to get this to work? You have two viable options. So the anxiety of having to pick one is hard. We understand that, but we'd love to have your comments. And our goal, we're really excited about the next step that we're really going to start to design a school that will embrace your community. And we look forward to more input during schematic design. And I think that's all we had. So I will stop sharing. Does anyone have any general comments? Would like to weigh in on anything before it's 8 30. We're actually a little early today. We sincerely appreciate everyone taking the time again. I know we're talking to the people that have watched this, but for those, maybe you could share that this will also be, it's being recorded and we'll post it as well. The presentation will also be posted as well. Written comments are welcome. And I'm seeing people already saying good night. So with that, Kathy. Yeah. So I just want to give a personal thanks to everyone who showed up. And there are some people, and you know who you are, who have been with us, I would say every minute of the way. It's not just every step of the way. And it's been terrific because one of the hopes of what feels like a speedway race to me. I've never built a school before, but I think many of us have never built a school before. It's extremely exciting project. And in addition to everything else, this building being all electric and using renewable will be an education project for our kids. They're going to be able to learn from the building. So I see it as we have a generation coming up of young kids who will be able to say how much energy did the sun generate for me today? How does this work? What's the outdoors looking like? And some of the films of schools that have been built this way talk about the excitement in the community among the kids and among the family of something that feels very real. So to me, the school feels very real. So I want to just thank everyone for your participation very much. And I think we can adjourn, Donna. Yeah, sounds good. One last call. Again, please fill out Matt. Matt, let me unmute you. Go ahead, Matt. If you can unmute yourself. There you go. Thanks, Donna. I lost my raised hand feature. And I apologize. I was such a nice ending, Kathy. But I had a comment that I wanted to make and I wanted to make it in the public forum. So I'm just going to take a quick moment. And so my name is Matt Holloway. I live in Maplewood Drive. I'm the parent of a two-year-old with another one due in September. I serve as a resident member of the finance committee, which I disclose in the interest of transparency. My vote is non-binding on that committee. And that committee is not making this decision. So I'm just putting some of those things out there because that question has come up. I'm also on the Amherst Cultural Council, which also has no role in this decision. But I'm coming tonight as a parent and a taxpayer. And I just want to share, I mean, my wife and I are very invested in this process. Our children will be some of the first students in the new school. We moved to Amherst specifically for the schools and specifically to be close to Wildwood and the regional middle and high schools. And when we were making that decision, we were under the impression that Wildwood was almost certainly the choice for the new school building just based on the previous ESBC decision comments we had heard just talking to neighbors and others who were in the know about conditions at Fort River. And we were just kind of, you know, so suffice to say, very personally invested in the Wildwood site. And in addition, I will also say I'm a public school administrator. I've worked for the State Department of Education. I've visited hundreds of schools and have seen that campus model of a school district be pretty powerful, especially for community building, but also for staff integration. And I think it should be the preferred model wherever possible, wherever you're choosing among equals. So, you know, we've enjoyed getting to know our community in this area. Most of our neighbors had sent their children to Wildwood in the middle high school. It felt like a track that we were stepping onto. But that being said, we've also become engaged in the life of the town, obviously. And we have just the utmost respect for the many public servants who make our town function so well. And I'm especially grateful to the ESBC. I've not sat through, I've not been able to watch all the meetings, but really appreciate the hard work and due diligence through the process. And I mean, I have to say that, you know, that the narrative has shifted 180 degrees here. And, you know, that's okay. And if conditions at Fort River are acceptable to the ESBC, and if that is the preferable site overall, then, you know, I will trust that judgment and I trust the work that ESBC has done on that question. So, well, I have a strong preference for the Wildwood site. The most important thing I can say tonight, and I really have to emphasize this, is that my wife and I, we will support the tax override regardless of site selection. Amherst needs this badly. It would be terrible if the tone and the tenor of the public debate over site selection clouded that fact in people's minds when the time comes to support this project at the polls. So I'm in support of a new elementary school in Amherst, regardless of the location. It's what the town needs. We cannot afford to miss out on the second opportunity to do this. And no matter which site is selected, like I said, prepared to commit my full efforts to support ESBC's decision and to work to make it a reality for all the kids in Amherst. So thank you for that. And thank you for giving me a couple minutes at the end. No, no problem. Thank you. Thank you. And, you know, I think ultimately it's, you know, the school's going to open in 2026. So yes, we are designing a school for some students that are barely born yet, right? If you start thinking about it. So this is actually a whole nother generation coming through. So it's wonderful that you're engaged and you don't even have students at the school yet. So we appreciate you and everyone else that has truly voiced their opinion and have been active during this entire process. Thank you very much. And thank you for the support. I agree. We need this school. So thank you, everyone. Now, I think unless someone else wants to speak, we can let people go back to their families and their evenings. Thank you very much. That's great. Thanks, everyone.


Hey there friends. Thanks for checking in in the midst of this ammo shortage. I call it a crisis There are a lot of scammers out there. There are posers Of course, we have resellers and we see the price out the roof for ammo But it's not like that in all places. I have people contact me and say hey, you know my local gun store where I'm at They're selling ammo at regular prices like there's nothing going on and then other places It's near impossible to get you go online. You see the biggest ripoffs online and people are all trying to Capitalize on the shortage On Instagram. It's like the worst. Okay, so you've got these these clowns who Have just a name not the name of a gun store But they're posing as a gun store and then when you look at their profile. It doesn't even have a Website it has an email address now any time a gun store is Advertising whether it's on Instagram Facebook or anywhere else. They want to shoot out there their website They want to drive traffic to the website it cuts down on the phone traffic and they're able to Show what they have and how much it is and they have Payment options on there and all kinds of stuff, you know go to the website these are individuals with just normal names and They look like just a normal person who is looking to unload a bunch of ammo that gives the viewer The idea that they they're about to get a great score Like I'm gonna get this great score of ammo because I know there's ammo out there and this guy Has it now. These are nothing more than images stolen stolen awful from online sources They posted on Instagram and tend to think wow I think I found my source for ammo, so I decided to reach out to this one clown in particular I have to admit initially. I was like whoa this guy To it seems to have a lot of ammo, but it didn't take long before I realized with just a name on there no website an email address and Direct message right back instantly. I say hey, do you ship? Yes, sir? Will you you know how when you get it out right away? Yes, sir. What are you looking for sir now? As soon as somebody overuses the word sir That tells me immediately They're overseas Okay, perhaps not in this case, but I get this All the time where people contact me and they want me to to sell or to make a video on their cheap Amazon Chinese made product it happens daily actually and they overused the word sir So to me that's an alert all right You're gonna call me sir 10 times in an email I don't think so and so this this poser got called me sir What do you want sir? so I decided to go back and forth with them and I said well how about that case of Blazer brass for 319 dollars for a thousand rounds now a couple years ago We'd say 319. That's way too much in today's world. It's a steal. You know if you can get a thousand rounds Of nine millimeter for 319. That's a steal. He gets back with me immediately and says how about 250? now Right away. I'm thinking this is the biggest scam. I've ever seen that's why I'm on here right now I don't want you to fall for it because one he doesn't have a Email address from a gun store Secondly, he's already dropping the price for me off of one direct message on Instagram And so I said okay. Well, I'll take five cases. Will you ship it out? Yes, sir I'll ship it out immediately 9 30 this morning Yeah, right How do I pay? Well, you can pay using PayPal and perfectly perfect or perfectly Some clown name on PayPal now if I were to actually do this I would send that money off the PayPal that goes to that person and I just got ripped off in this case. It would have been $1,250 I told him I'll take five cases His mind score. I got me a sucker. You know one of these gun suckers Sent me a whole bunch of money and get nothing and that's basically what it Comes down to these people are posing as Having huge inventories of ammo and that exact thing that we need another point I Decided to go through their Photos and read the comments Other posers or that same person with a different account said hey, thanks a lot for the ammo It's such a great deal at first. I was a little worried, but it came the very next day Oh, it's such a you know, I'm gonna continue to do business with you All of which is nothing more than a ploy to gain confidence from this fake source. All right, so what are we doing? we are Most of us are out there looking for ammo Looking for deals on ammo, which are seldom available and we're looking for sources something that we could Place we can continually go back to to replenish our supply And then we get into desperate mode where it also becomes an emotional thing. Hey, I got the score You know, I got I got my place I found my my Source where I can get ammo at a good deal at pre-plandemic prices by the way. Oh Yes, great deals and then you you'll never see it again. So be careful. It's the reason I'm making this video There are scammers out there.  This was nothing more than a scam Yeah, if you like videos like this, please subscribe and share. I always appreciate thumbs up button Thanks for watching and you guys be safe


I'm trying So again? So where are you again? I can grip up here Where are you?  I'll just drink here I can maybe grip him I'll just grip him I'll piece it I'll storm again I'll storm LOS I'll storm again Yeah, we're good We're okay I can pet sack here No, I'm not going to pet sack So where are you? I'm gripping five to the pallet Yeah, glow? Ah, no, he fucking... Bro, that's so bad Oh, okay, he grips himself I'm not worried about you I'll jump me Can you get the sack off? Yeah, I'll get it Grip that here I can keep... I'm gonna stay on the warrior if he pushes on you like this Nice He wrecks!   I drink it I line warrior I use this arm I have to drink it slow Yeah, I grip... I have grip for pallet Yeah I can grip pallet? Okay, I'm gonna kill...


there for creel management which will become a multifaceted project as well covering all different areas and will cover the mobile section as well as the static section because they have to be inclusive in this and originally the idea was it was going to have from Cape Roth down to north of Llewctord and then the next group from there down to Arden and Merchan but at the meeting in Kylwch Alsham valley was there and it became very clear that the area where valley operates which is from really north of Llewctord down to Alornsea and Nice Point and Skye had some very different issues just south of there and to the north of there I thought fine this necessitates having subgroup to cover that area it's for the fishermen and I want it to be led by the fishermen because it's their business it's their livelihood it's their children's livelihood in the future and I want that livelihood to go on I want to deal with all the issues with the spatial squeeze as best we can and let the fishermen have their voice and have their say so I'm here for Hanna Thanks I think I definitely echo a lot of people have said about transparency and the importance of how people use that to engage in the process I think also having trust and accountability is also incredibly important so having clear pathways of how we know when you put in your opinions or your thoughts whether you as an individual or as a group where they go to and what the process is and how they get incorporated and how they get weighed up against other experiences or other evidence I think that's very important and it's not always something that I think is clearly defined in our current processes I think one of the issues about community empowerment especially when we talk about the inshore is just the fact that it's such a huge topic I mean at the moment we've been speaking about inshore fisheries but we'll also be talking about conservation about agriculture, about sea birds so I think there's always going to be a huge problem in empowering people to have these conversations because with these conversations there's no start point and there's no end point either I think the IFGs are incredibly important to fishing and I think it's really important that we have that dedicated set of groups for fishers and I think that if they should be transparent but I think that having that dedicated space is really important and I think that if there is a need for that for other groups as well to have their own dedicated spaces that's something that should be looked at but I think that the IFGs should remain as they are for fishermen Okay, thanks I'm going to bring in Lucy and then Charles Thanks, I think it's perfect reasonable for the obviously there to be for a widowed fisherman to come together and actually talking with policy makers the issue comes where other stakeholders whose interests, legitimate interests and in many cases businesses are affected by decisions around fisheries management which sometimes can be poor decisions in other communities and as it stands there is no social licence in the current governance arrangements for fisheries management because it excludes the public from actually having a say in how that resource is used and allocated and there's an example from Aaron where we used to have a very prolific angling festival that was a big event on the island and bought a lot of revenue into the area and involved people involved in the recreational and commercial sea angling sector that stopped at the end of the 90s because there were no more fish for the anglers to catch and whilst it may be disputed as to the reasons for that the opening up of the inshore areas to trawl fisheries in the 1980s allowed impacts from the more impacting sectors of the fishing industry and this is documented in scientific evidence the relative impacts of different fishing fishing activities has affected the inshore areas and the communities are at the receiving end of that so it is imperative that people whose other livelihoods and interests are affected by these decisions have a say in what actually happens in their local marine and coastal areas HALT I think the interesting thing about the IFGs in a way is that they've kind of evolved they were initially established 15-20 years ago now to develop management plans and they have become less inclusive they have become much more of a forum for the fisheries and from that policy is produced general policy advice is produced and that's fine if that's what they have turned into okay so be it that's good it's good that the fishing industry can have that gathering but what is still needed is that wider forum where the different stakeholders in the inshore can come together and actually influence and that perhaps it's not a perfect model but it's interesting to see what happens south of the border of the inshore fishery conservation authorities the IFGs these regional groups which have bylaws powers they have constitutions they have multi-stakeholder participants implementing ecosystem-based management which takes fisheries out of the silo and manages it in a coherent way with the environmental interest taking into account along with all the others of the inshore so I think that the IFG is fine if they have become the kind of mechanism for the industry to talk together that's great but there needs to be something else which is wider we must finish at 11.30 so we've got Calum then Alistair Simon and then Sheila okay thank you I'm very sympathetic to what's been said about the importance of inclusivity so just for transparency we said that in our written response and we said that to the future fisheries management discussion response as well what we said was we support proposals for strengthening IFGs including extending to 12 nautical miles which would improve integration with regional marine planning provided their adequate resource and there is improved representation for all stakeholders so we do have that concern about to make sure that these processes are inclusive of other interests the other social and environmental interests and just echo what Charles said we highlighted in our response as well the value of the IFG in England and there was a study done that showed one study highlighted that there were 12 stakeholder groups where members of IFCA committees are boards compared with the IFGs and I know it's not like for like but that's the issue so what we need to have is inclusive effective transparent ensure fisheries management okay Alistair our experience of the IFGs has been very pure as a forum where a fisherman can come to chat I think it's an excellent forum but the management mechanism it's terrible for example the meeting Simon mentioned in my community a couple of weeks ago where we have over 100 vessels registered at the Portrait Fisheries Office only three people turned up for the IFG meeting and that's because there's a huge loss of faith and the IFG is a practical mechanism to progress fisheries management for example over 10 years ago the IFG drafted management plans right at the top of the management plans in Scotland was spatial management and effort controls now these management plans have never been progressed there is no spatial management being introduced and there have been no effort controls introduced so as such we've lost a huge opportunity that the management plans of the IFGs have not been implemented and there isn't a plan to implement them or a plan to develop the plan any further locally the IFGs are known as the place where fisheries management goes to die and Marine Scotland sends every initiative that we send them to the IFGs they say take it to the IFG and we take it to the IFG and if the IFG doesn't achieve consensus we've asked Marine Scotland regularly what do we do in the circumstances where the IFG doesn't achieve consensus and they say you can ask the IFG to recommend it back to us on several instances we've written to the IFG and asked them to recommend for example the herring spawning closure that we wanted north of Gaeloch because a new herring spawning ground had been identified it was on blue planet it was a big thing and one of our advice is that we should protect the spawning habitat of the herring where it's been identified and there was no consensus within the IFG ICs advice would say we'd close it to mobile gear but the mobile gear sector said we're only willing to agree if the static gear sector are also excluded which one is out with the scientific advice and two the local community are far more dependent on the static gear community than the mobile community who infrequently visit there because there was no consensus we asked Marine Scotland to make a determination and Marine Scotland have not done this at all out of many our local community overwhelmingly voted for an inshore fisheries pilot where we manage static gear and mobile gear separately and it had the support of 100% of the full-time fishers within our community that's over 35 boats fishing in the inner sound it wasn't supported by the half a dozen visiting trawlers and as such no progress has been made over the 10 years or so and the three iterations of that pilot so from our experience IFGs are non-functional and we have a mechanism to make sure the IFGs do their job and Marine Scotland aren't fulfilling that Okay, very briefly Simon Yes, thank you First we'll come to points made about the coastal communities as well having a voice through the IFG which were brought by Lucy and by Charles I am willing to listen to anybody and everybody that comes to me with an issue which affects fisheries I sit on the Clyde Marine planning partnership as well so we'd get a lot of that interaction and I take some of that interaction back where it's necessary to present to Marine Scotland as well with the case, I put a report out each time I have a meeting as such so I am willing to listen to any coastal community because I live in a coastal community myself so it's close to my heart so I'm there for that coming to to Bally's points as well Yes, I apologise for the fact that we couldn't get out and about and do anything because of Covid but since Covid and lockdown and everything has ended I have made the effort I've come out and about I wanted to have representative from Marine Scotland with me for it as well, to put the Marine Scotland perspective and so I had to wait until it was clear to do it so that was the earliest opportunity I had and I got to the meeting day before we'd had the meeting in Alipol there were about 25 people there some travelled quite a long way I got to Kyle and somebody had said oh, Bally is going to be here because he's going to represent all the fishers in the area so I thought fine, okay so that we talked to you I think the direction of our travel was well because you were obviously selected to represent the fishers as far as I was made aware so it was directed to you and I think we made it quite clear that our role was really quite a consultative role from the fishermen to take all the information to Marine Scotland as we also have to take that information from Marine Scotland back to the fishers as well and I will keep chipping away on the herring spawning bit there I have made numerous representations to Marine Scotland just on that point to try and get things expedited and get things moving I also have similar issues with the Solway with the cockles I've had projects knocking back and forward like a tennis bat The point that I was making about only three fishermen turned up, yet I agree I was representing the local community almost 100 per cent of whom I remember the Scottish Cure Fishermen's Federation and the Fishmen's Association or Clyde Fishermen's Association or Western Isles Fishermen's Association we were left, we could debate all day we could come up with a plan and then it would go back out and just be dingied by everybody else it was a bit of a waste of our time that was my point so it was in their area okay, Sheila it's full aside it seems like a long time ago at this discussion the regional marine plan in Shetland is leading the way in regional marine planning the document is currently with Marine Scotland it's been sitting there for a very long time waiting for ratification we'd like to get it back and get on with implementation of it but what it did include was proper discussion between all interested parties members of the community anybody interested in the parties was involved in that marine planning but what it did also include was that anybody involved set out clearly the criteria of why they wanted to be involved in the management process in terms of who they represented their aims and objectives, their governance and transparency to regard and funding etc and I think that that is imperative when community groups people who say they have a social interest are involved in fisheries management they must be clear and transparent about what their aims and objectives are the inference around the room seems to be that the other interested parties need to be involved to secure healthy ecosystems and healthy stocks fishermen want that, it's the very thing that they want to give the inference that fishermen without including these groups that won't be an achievable aim it's quite catastrophic to think that that is true what we are finding is that the tie-up of marine resources in Marine Scotland and in associations through FOI requests judicial reviews and all of this is stopping progress in shore fisheries we currently have the RFIG system it's not just ENGs etc are kept out of the discussions to be honest we have no representation of fin fish catchers in Shetland on any RFIG something that I've brought to Jim Watson's point he said that associations will not be on RFIGs full stop he's looking at it but not at the moment that's quite that means that basically fishermen have no say RFIGs currently well when we wrote this document the budget for RFIGs was £200,000 IFGIS is £9 million so you can't compare apples and pears when you compare RFG and IFGIS it's two different things but what it does point out that if you're going to properly manage inshore fisheries it needs resources you need to manage the expectation of what the government is promising for inshore fisheries and other people that are in the room today or else we'll just pick holes in each other and never get anything achieved in the light of decline in resources I think that is probably a closing point manage expectation thank you very much for all spending that extra 35 minutes we could probably be here all day and all week it certainly gave us plenty food for thought so thank you particularly those who have travelled some distance to be here with us today we will reflect on the discussions today and no doubt we'll return to some of the topics that have been raised and issues that have been raised at future meetings so thank you very much and nice to spend this meeting for 15 minutes they had pastries welcome back our final item of business today is consideration of a consent notification relating to the site to sanitary condition amendment number 3 regulation 2022 and I refer members to paper 2 do any members have any comments on the notification mercy days thanks convener the reclassification of blueberry rust from the list of quarantine pests the list of regulated non quarantine pests suggests to me that controls on this pest have been ineffective as it's moved from a pest which is largely absent from a territory to one which is already present in a territory with measures in place to minimise its spread so I'd be interested to know to receive any data on the rising prevalence of this pest and any analysis of what has led to its spread and also to hear what steps the relevant ministers and governments are taking to control and eradicate it okay, thank you what I suggest is if members are content to to agree to this notification we can also write to ask for some more information on the topic that you raised okay, are members content thank you that concludes our business today thank you and we'll formally close this meeting


What's going on guys? It's your boy DPGA here today with another Destiny video and in today's video we have top 5 warlock specials of the week. Now this is a mix up of all three warlock specials and if you guys enjoy it this way let me know by leaving a like. Also if you have anything badass to send in send it into the email address linked in the top of the video description. Now enjoy the video and I'll catch you guys on the next one.