quick one thing is the um uh the $30 gift cards like ran out within about half an hour i don't know if they'll use you anymore but maybe they will um the other thing is and i i didn't fall i saw the link but i didn't follow the link to the department of tourism that is looking for data from local businesses but i just wanted to let you know and maybe you could connect the dots here that Montpelier live has been doing monthly surveys to all the downtown businesses in terms of where their revenues are a year over year this year compared to past years are they breaking even how many people are they employing now relative to last year's they've done it for may june july and the august one is just about to go out so that there's a lot of data available so you might be able to connect with dan to share that information it's it's already there thank you great anybody else okay all right thank you um all right so on to in-person meetings uh yeah is this me and rent yeah okay good um sort of wearing the covid um information half right now um i gave a couple different proposals um to you about what a meeting in person might look like i do want to go over the survey results i also included really briefly i know that we did not have a huge amount of responses to that so it's not a statistically significant by any means but um it is the people who cared enough to reach out and say something so we had a lot of really responses pro and con for returning in person um out of the i mean only 19 folks responded to any of our um outreach which was done on front porch forum our facebook page and um uh i think that was where we we put out the information but we also created an online survey that people could use anonymously if they weren't interested in putting their name on that but the majority overwhelmingly said they were not interested um and had a lot of reasons as to why a lot of health and safety reasons people also mentioned that they found zoom convenient to them that they were able to participate more as they were able to watch it from home in a more convenient way for them i think a lot of folks are now discovering that you guys are streaming on youtube and maybe not have known that before um and that they're able to just log in to zoom if they have something they want to say when they see it on tv versus having to get in a car and drive down the city hall so there's a lot of um interest there i think around the sort of zoom platform um my recommendation and staff's recommendation is not to um continue in person meetings and to continue on zoom until um there is a even until there's a vaccine until people are comfortable being in close proximity to each other if only because of the financial um impacts of that space um in order to safely keep all of y'all uh six feet apart we'll need to install plexiglass um between you there would still need to be a mask mandate inside the building um and the windows would need to be probably opened and we don't have a large capacity in that room um if people are standing uh 32 people can be in that room including y'all but that's standing room and that's it's not um an accessible way to have folks attend a meeting so um there's a lot to consider when you're making this decision we will make it work whatever way you want to make it work um the reason i'm mentioning financial costs is that all of the grants that we were eligible for to be reimbursed their deadlines have already passed and this is not something that we included um as we did not have any extra capital to really put into that at this moment so um those times are past so we need to out of pocket cost putting up plexiglass um so um i've put a couple different proposals in front of you um there's a combination of socially distance meeting in person and with a zoom component i did test that out a few times um it's not ideal because you can't get the full room in the picture so folks would be cut out of that zoom space um we would need staff to monitor that and that's fine i would do that no problem um i don't doubt that we could make it work but i do doubt that it would be the most successful option um we talked about plexiglass dividers and moving folks around the room just to make sure that people um were appropriately spaced um masks would need to be worn the entire time even if you were appropriately spaced the cdc guidelines say if you're around somebody for more than 15 minutes that's really unacceptable amounts of risk in their eyes and it is an increased risk of um transmission so that's the information that i gathered and i did have a few proposals um it's honestly we're here to do uh whatever you feel is best so lots i i actually don't have strong feelings about this toner and then i'll back off i thought i was one of the ones i bloody i hate the zoom meetings maybe it's that my head is too big i can barely fit in the frame but um i do think it detracts from some of the work we do being on zone you know i know when dan liked taps the table three times it means vote a certain way and stuff but um i'm just kidding i i missed the person the person contact but you know i think even though the survey had a pretty small sample size we're probably entering kind of uncertain times of school being back in session and uvm coming so maybe revisit in a bit but i'm okay sticking with zoom for now go ahead lord uh yeah i was gonna say similar i mean i much much much prefer to be in person um but just the the challenges with making it work and and the risk and you know if i felt like it really was a much more accessible um scenario for the public it might be worth it but i think this is actually um you know being able to access it from people's homes who have that be a phone is probably more accessible in many ways than having to get to city hall so i think holding off you know they were just out today or in the last couple days with projections for for the next month or two in vermont and they're anticipating a little spike at school and everything so it seems like the wrong time to be undertaking this unfortunately i mean we can keep an eye on it and keep the conversation um you know seeing what options and what creative um things other cities might be doing and stuff but i think for now it doesn't seem worth it i will put out there that i i thought of a different configuration which is to say that um it would like what if we were in person but we instead of trying to put us all on zoom in terms of like one zoom um seeing the whole room because we all bring our laptops our devices anyway so what if we all brought our laptops to council chambers and then did this you know each individually so we would all be in the same room but with our own our own pictures um and i don't know i don't i don't uh i'm i'm not i'm not so i'm not gonna do it but what's that donna is that a live zoom meeting yeah like a live zoom meeting so that like the public would still participate in this in this same way but we would be in the in the room together um sort of a it's a different way to think of a hybrid but i there's i don't know there's other disadvantages to that so um in case anyone have any strong feelings about or actually any any other thoughts really are you taking public comment um yes go ahead steven and then donna yeah i i i really like i hadn't even considered the the model that you just proposed of the hybrid zoom meeting uh there are i tried to get folks uh around town who are most affected by the bathroom conversation then you don't have phones there's no place for them to go and find a computer uh to to participate in this meeting and be heard you know you you eliminate there's some people there's broadband issues i'm frequently have telephone capacity but not broadband capacity so i think you and and then presentations of a of anything likes parking maps etc those cannot adequately be done on zoom so i work up can capture those from a city council meeting uh full screen properly but i think you need to make efforts and progress and i earlier suggested better ventilation in that room with heat recovery so i would encourage you there may be more money available if you make it a telecommunications experiment for participation uh zoom i put particularly won't put that software on my computer because the encryption keys are passed off a server in china and that's just not an acceptable security risk for me so uh there's my two cents on that topic i would encourage you to resume uh socially distance council meetings in a hybrid manner yeah thank you yeah uh donna i definitely prefer zoom than the mask and the setup i think we have to be the example of the new norm i think it's a year to two years if not longer if the vaccine vaccination comes out if it all happens and gets distributed but meanwhile i think if we can accept this as our norm is how do we make this better i guess that was the piece i was trying to bring up with looking at not only holding our meetings with a different maybe approach but also steven's right this is not perfect from a meeting law at all but we're still trying and we need to keep working on ways where people can access electronics and we also need to i think for us as a council need to add a social component so we're having some what i call you know really casual social conversation and whether that's once a month we meet 30 minutes early and eat together at our prospective homes and talk about our dogs or cats and whatever i think that would be really good for us as a group and maybe we can get connor to smile more anyway i just think we have to accept it's it's it's gonna be a long hoe people that's all uh lauren go ahead um i i do wonder just the comment about you know looking at maps and things i mean even the winter parking conversation you know trying to either set up maybe in council chambers like maps that people could go have a certain window that obviously you know take some staffing capacity to um you know even if the conversation was not happening then like the public hearing but an opportunity to so people do want to go look at bigger maps that might be easier to digest than um than on zoom or people who don't have access to um to good internet which obviously is common around here um so so maybe it's hybrid also of how we're trying to just get the key materials will be discussed so people have different ways to look at it and process it and then even if you are then calling into a meeting or zooming into a meeting um you know having that kind of access a really great point and we can definitely work on getting printouts and put them in the hallway again we're open all day business hours on Tuesdays and Thursdays the public is welcome to come in and you know we can put those out for folks not a problem i'll just stay in here too i mean the staff obviously we would much prefer in-person meetings as well for all the reasons everybody else does um and recognize the limitations of this this situation we're equally concerned by you know a space you know for for maybe a lot you know when we say 32 people there's 9 10 11 of us probably with the city in any given meeting if not more so we're you know we'd have a cap at 20 members of the public for most meetings maybe less depending on staff or consultants or anybody that needed to come and you know from the average meeting maybe that's not a problem for but for the issue for the exact meetings we're talking about when there's a lot of interest we'd you know we would be sorry we're at capacity we can't let you in and so we're you know yes i think we need to figure this out i know this is what this has sort of been the default that folks all over the country are going to and um even even places that have town meetings you know actual town meetings have figured out how to do this on zoom but you know they just set up a thing and people people are calling in and doing you you know hundreds of people so it's not it's definitely an imperfect system but you know so is you know we used to get complaints about meetings that it was late at night and people couldn't come out or they had childcare or it was the weather was bad yeah they couldn't make it um um you know this stuff yeah may i again mayor uh and then jay the media the media quality uh suffers if it if you are the council in a room spaced orca can be capturing full resolution audio and video that's important we're forfeiting this entire era of transcription automated transcription will be impossible from the audio quality of these recordings and many people who are have damaged or limited hearing can't even understand the conversation over these zoom calls so we there are uh there are costs but there are also benefits to pushing for more than better than what we're doing right now fair enough um thank you uh jay um thanks uh bill and Cameron i wondered if you in thinking about uh alternatives for these meetings if you considered other space other than the than the chambers um is there somewhere else in town or is there somewhere nearby could we go upstairs could we go somewhere where we could space um where we could have more room um to to all be present the bottom line is but i don't fall on one side of the fence with either the either side i'm very conflicted there's a part of me that says that i you know i really appreciate the increased accessibility for people to engage in the meeting when it's most important to them i also hear um what you know what hear what steven's saying about you know being able to have access to broadband and to be able to see presentations um and i do also appreciate that it's a new norm but at the same time you know i i you know my i take my nine-year-old to school and expect him to wear a mask for four and a half hours five days a week and and my 12 year old and my 15 year old and so we we you know the state said to the school districts hey you got to figure this out and they've done the best they could and given the circumstances they had and i wonder you know i wonder if we could rethink the our circumstances could we be somewhere where we could have more space we could be present but you know um like the mayor mentioned the possibility of you just engaging via a laptop and in person so that we can find a balance between accessibility and also being there so that we could interact and have those you know you have those conversations where we're um where we're together in one room and it's it's you know it's increased access on on both fronts um i'm not arguing one side or the other i'm just sort of trying to sort of think out loud here about what what what could we come up with some more creative solutions could we think about different ways to be able to approach this understand hearing from everybody and knowing what's important for us as a council and also to the public those are all great ideas so we thought briefly about upstairs we could look at it some more i think you know the main objection there honestly was was number one the reliability of the elevator but assuming the elevator is working but um you know it's double the sword right so steven appropriately raised the orca issue all the orca equipment is in the council chamber i don't know what it would be involved in you know moving that but i would imagine it'd be you know maybe it's worth it um we thought about other locations um you know the school has monitoring the elementary school and in high school but under for understandable reasons school doesn't want other people in there we have not faulting them but those are kind of off limits you know most most places don't want us going in so our options as a city are really pretty limited it's to this building so you know upstairs is the only bigger space that we have and maybe that is we can at least try to tweak you know look at technologically and see how that works you know maybe it is something like what the mayor suggested where we're in person with laptop on zoom and you know maybe we could have a limited number of public in there but it would have to be you know i don't know first cut you know sign up take 10 reservations or something and that's it nobody beyond that you know i don't know um jack go ahead and then i have a follow-up thought i'm not really pushing for doing meetings in person although i like everyone else i i prefer that personal interaction one thought that occurred to me as i was reading through the descriptions of how we might set the room up is whether we could consider disregarding the dais completely and having the entire council lined up lengthwise along one of the one of the long walls in the combined council chambers and memorial room and that would potentially give us enough separation to do that i would do that but i just want to say it wouldn't change the capacity of the room in any way right i i get that but it would be seems like it might be a more workable way to get everybody visible not having you know people at the tables either with the back to the other members of the council or the back to the public i don't know the other thought that occurred to me with regard to the mayor's proposal is that the uh from my experience of doing uh trials in court rooms with uh video conference is that once we once there's more than one electronic device running the program at the same time it seems like we always get um feedback or other interference problems which we typically get resolved but it's uh you know if everyone has their speakers on you gotta have your speaker turned off or where's the mic what mic is going to be on to pick everybody up and so i think it's i'm not saying it's insurmountable but it's a challenge yeah that's that's interesting um just a follow-up just thinking about like if we use the area upstairs just thinking about the orca media challenges i mean they're they're on our zoom call now um and presumably they if we were going to do something similar in a hybrid model they could it would at least be as well they couldn't potentially engage in the same way anyway just making a note of that dn go ahead yeah i mean it's a little bit more complicated with orca because they do have cables and lines running into the room um that i don't know if they could easily be restrung up into the auditorium uh area and to run the cameras and of course the cameras are fixed cameras uh in the council chambers um but it strikes me that there may be um something worth looking at in the sense of creating a public location um for attending these meetings which is i'm comfortable staying on zoom it's not my preferred medium um i'm a three-dimensional guy i prefer to be seen in person um but at the same time um this is the safest option and just as i said my kids off to school you know if there was another really good option that would satisfy all of their their needs you know online that was a little bit safer i would feel more comfortable doing it i i think this hits more of the points but i think this to some of the concerns that we're facing as far as the ability to have public um access the meetings you know maybe there's should be some consideration to having one sort of hub where there is the possibility for you know the council chambers to be opened for public to to watch a city council meeting sort of virtually putting it up on the big screen giving them an opportunity to speak through the zoom maybe one or two people that would be in staffing in the city council room you know and or one of us if we if we chose to um but sort of creating that option with the idea that we default on zoom but have a have a city council option for either the public or a limited number and maybe i honestly oh sorry oh no just go ahead i i honestly feel a little sleep not thinking that one through but we're both bill and i are obviously here in the office we do have a computer set up per zoom in the council chambers if we could open it up and limit it to 32 people in that room the public i don't i'm just putting this out there if you guys seen fit opening it up during council hours so that folks can come in and participate via zoom that way um they would just have to talk at the computer wouldn't have to touch any of our equipment um orca would still be able to film it because i honestly did not speak to them about their comfort in coming in that's another thing that you know is a consideration as they might not feel comfortable coming into a public meeting at this point and i'm not trying to force that on anyone um but that is something that i at least would do to clean that space before and after meetings and clean that equipment for folks that they can use it maybe there's a way we can get it projected up on the screen we can do that that's super easy uh connor go ahead just one other idea to add to the mix the legislature is looking at this very scenario right now and they're going to probably be having in-person meetings in montpellier somewhere that's already covered by orca so they don't meet at 6 30 on wednesday nights we should probably reach out to the state to see maybe there's a room at the state house that's already outfitted for this interesting that's interesting thought that'd be kind of fun also um lauren did you have any handrails no okay just checking um okay i i don't know that i feel like we landed anywhere in particular except for that people are okay with where we're at or or it doesn't sound like we're ready to like jump back in but this this possibility of opening things up to the public um in a limited way in person that that was interesting to me just that creates an additional avenue um insofar as you all feel safe doing that um yeah let's kick that around a little bit you know those are some ideas right tonight that we didn't think of so let's let's play with that for a little bit and get back to your suggestions because the better the more we can do the better yep and so is this something that um you can follow up with us again about at the next meeting okay great uh jonna well i just really want the staff because my concern is being in that older age group and compromise i would really be concerned of the staff especially in the fall winter if we start having up ticks so that you really need to look at it for your safety please i think it's really important that we not ask you to do something we aren't willing to do ourselves yeah that's fair that's fair thank you we will have that in our consideration i appreciate that yeah okay any further comments on this okay all right um thanks everybody i think that is the end of our regular business so we are on to council reports and we're gonna start with donna okay i'll be quick uh lauren and i attended dpw's public hearing on their proposed gravelling of coming street and it was just the three of us but it was good zack did a very good job i i also along with several of you attended the ice cream social for can that was very well done in a lovely yard and i would hope by next meeting i would like to bring forth my impression of where the central vermont public safety authority board is and to have you start thinking along the lines in the next few months of appointing those two slots that you have on the board that are empty right now thank you thank you codder just best of luck to all the teachers and education support professionals going back to school it was uh like just living down the street from main street middle it was nice to see everybody out and about again but i know it comes with a lot of anxiety so um everybody's being very brave and best best of luck to them as as this rolls out yeah thank you uh jay yeah i'll just echo codder and say thank you to teachers and administrators and and and staff for all their work to to get back starting to school um and uh and that's it for me thankfully no uh no new medical emergencies thanks uh dine sure uh i'll echo donna's concern about the central vermont public safety i actually kim chainy reached out to me um you know expressing some concern that we are down members from mom piliar and wanting uh wanting us to sort of beef up simply because i think they're at a point where they need to make some decisions it sounds like on on some of the rfps that they've put out and without a full board it makes it difficult if not close to impossible so it's certainly something we really really need to emphasize and to get people um to to join and i know you know there was actually some pressure about putting it on this agenda but it came in too late but it certainly should be one of the agenda items next week um the only other thing that i think we should really um be aware of is you know i'm hearing some chatter and sort of reflects the conversation we had last week about the police uh which is the student resource officer and i i know that that concern is continuing and that i would in my mind it seems to make sense that if there is discussion about that because that's a joint um position that works with the school system but works for the city is that we should be talking to the school board and there should be sort of one one conversation with an opportunity for the public to have input but also sort of control the conversation in a sense of let's make sure everyone has an opportunity to be to be heard about it and that's all okay thank you yeah um jack all right well this may be the most boring possible council member report but uh i think it's worth starting the discussion now i was looking at the manager's report of upcoming council meetings and in the months of november and december we have three weeks in which the our scheduled council meetings are potential conflict with the holiday or adjacent to a holiday because we have a veteran's day the night before thanksgiving and then on december 23rd which of course is festivus but what occurred to me uh looking right we're in a five week month now so this september is a five week month so if we were to move all the meetings in october november and december forward a week so it would be the first and third uh wednesdays of those three months that would avoid the conflicts with all of the uh holidays that i mentioned i i know people have scheduled you know plan their uh their weeks and months in advance so i thought it was worth mentioning it now as a way uh to avoid that thanks for bringing that up uh is this something uh bill or cameron that you can put out some recommendations to us or should we break out our calendars right now it kind of seems like we shouldn't do that right now necessarily but good sure we could take a look whether we need to do all of them or some of them or okay and uh so you'll come back to us with some some date recommendations sure and the other i guess and you know another question is sometimes um especially with the november december ones we've been known to meet on a different night to like a monday night or something if that works because we sort of wouldn't want to conflict with festivals um last year we're gonna have defeats of strength well there's also there's always the airing of the grievances yeah we do and part of my thinking is that if we if we do first and third for all these months we would never run into the situation of having two weeks in a row of having to do a meeting so yeah any other thoughts on that from council there's a preference on that if not that's okay look at that we'll throw some ideas in the weekly memo this way okay uh great lauren uh few quick things um when i just wanted to note for people that the farmers market is being moved to 133 state street next to uh the tax department building so look out for that hopefully that'll be a great great new space for it um so hope people can get out there to enjoy our farmers market um wanted to note um and thank bill and cameron and the staff for the change in policy with the transparency around the lobbying it's been great to see that coming out and the quick implementation of that um change so thanks for making that happen and it's really interesting and helpful to see what our what our city staff are uh are testifying on so thank you for for making that happen um on the policing just um you know case people i know there's a lot of community interest and so my understanding is that next meeting will likely have or in a future meeting we will have a proposal from staff on um the next some next steps around um uh committee as the chief proposed strategic planning and visioning um so that conversation is continuing you know dan raised the school resource officer as one of the issues and then um you know there are a whole bunch of ideas put out there um by both the chief and community members so just to let people know those conversations are continuing that process is continuing um a lot of work is being done by staff i know um so i just wanted to make sure that was clear to everyone and stay tuned and though you know for when that's back on um an agenda um one other uh last thing um it's been a while since we've had an update from mop failure alive i know last week we get you know jay gives us great updates as being our liaison there but wondering if we should get you know especially heading into winter when outdoor things are going to be less of an option like what's what are our businesses you know needing you know how can we as a community be supporting them um so wondering if we should invite dan back or whoever a group of people to to come um you know give us an update and you know explore what we can be doing um as a city or as community members to help support our our local businesses want to throw that out great thank you so i just want to give everybody a heads up that um already starting to think about the budget process that we will be starting in probably more like october november i know like november but even so um we've usually started that process with a survey to see what everybody's priorities are um and i think particularly because this is a some unusual circumstances around planning for the budget um we want to start that um early and think about things in sort of a tiered way potentially uh so just to the heads up to be looking for that probably next um a couple of weeks again i know it's it's early but i i'd rather get that out on the earlier side rather than later um so just uh i'm gonna be looking for that um and then also just want to echo the shout out to uh to educators who are going back to school um uh and as well as as families who are are sending uh their kids to school um just thinking about everybody during this time and hoping everyone stays stay safe um so that is it for me uh john anything nothing absolutely nothing i'm on vacation this is why i look like this awesome i'm on mark's vineyard right now so dang this technology that means i can't get out of being in the meeting but it's too convenient i didn't even think about that when you popped on i just wasn't thinking uh bill go ahead yeah just a couple of things one um you know lauren did mention that we were working on police responses we were planning on that for the next meeting um going to take stock after this meeting to see what got added to next meeting because you know i and i mean that because i think that's kind of you know we if we have some lengthy conversations whether it's around winter parking or other things you know we don't want to go to 11 and not be able to take on a weighty subject so we'll probably take a look at um what's in the queue and it'll certainly be one of the next two meetings because it's timely and we've got to do it but make sure everything is balanced uh so there's that sRO uh was mentioned um prior to recently in some of the contact you may have had uh the mayor and i have scheduled the meeting with along with camera and the chief chief p with school officials um this friday uh for the express purpose of talking about a joint process so that um we can talk to them about how is this going to be addressed how how will these decisions be made um so that both the city and school are on the same page in terms of how they're communicated public about how this issue would be deliberated you know we'll talk about i don't know maybe we'll talk about a joint meeting who knows what we'll talk about but our goal is is not so much to talk about the merits of sRO as it is how will we together um or unparalleled tracks consider this issue so that is on our minds as well um quick question at the last meeting there was discussion in a some apparent enthusiasm for some kind of a covid task force to you know really be looking at downtown and those kind of issues but then there was no real conclusion to that no motion no sense of so i you know i don't really want to wait to another meeting or how you want to handle that but um there seemed to be a sense of urgency and i didn't want to have it pass the meeting so um if anybody wants to weigh in on that you're talking about like business development and yeah i think you and dan it sort of raised it as a key issue having council and business people and just how we're going to keep things going and um and i hadn't written it down and then it was prompted again when moran just mentioned you know we haven't heard from my people who are live what are the plans or like yeah gee we said we were gonna gonna also get involved so i don't know if anybody was yeah so i think that um long long story short is that i think that yes we'll definitely um want and need to be involved but we'll yeah i've had a couple conversations with dan um and others we'll have those guys take the lead in terms of managing that process but the city whether council and or staff member be part of it i think ultimately that's going i think that that's going to be the best um the best approach so i mean it's certainly a significant discussion and a much broader discussion but i this all just sort of kind of coalesced this afternoon i wasn't able to communicate with anybody ahead of the meeting so i think that's fine and i'll continue with dan tomorrow yeah so i'll meet you with dan tomorrow afternoon we have a regular meeting so we'll circle the waggits on this thank you yeah but i'll loop you in and we'll so we're all on the same page with it yeah super thanks and then just last thing welcome mary smith aboard uh as our new executive assistant she started yesterday so you'll start getting emails and things from her are they just gonna be great and uh they're just to dig into all the the details so we're happy to have her so if you're in city hall safely come in and say hi on tuesdays or thursdays and uh otherwise look forward to seeing her name giving you all sorts of instructions on what things to do okay super all right well thanks everybody um have a good night and so i will without objection uh declare this meeting adjourned good meeting see you later


Thank you, you're with my friends. Good morning, everyone. Margot and I just booked a couples massage, but in the same room, together they said you wanted to be together or separate. It was just too enticing of an offer to have to do it, when they said together or separate. Yeah, so sober. What do I say?  I know, I kind of want to just, I want to get my lips sunburned. But you guys both have very nice lips, and I mean them like. Actually, I don't think my, if I got my sunburned, they would not look cute. They would be crusty and gross. Well, that's what I'm like waiting for. Yeah. But I like, lather them and like, let out, you know what I mean? So, I knew she got them, I was like, cool girls, breakfast, um, today's the boat day. Today's the boat day. Today's the day we've all kind of been waiting for. Yeah, really? I really don't know what I'm going to wear.  Oh, my, I had, um, my, um, my tan washed off. Probably immediately. I would say night one. Immediately, yeah. I would say night one. But it's not like my tanners fall. It's like, my tan. Love my tan. I feel like I'm still going pretty strong with that. Yeah, I know. I also feel like armpits are always so tragic. Yeah. My armpits are tragic. Yeah. You know, I could use some aloe vera. Yeah. I could definitely use some of that. I need, like, like sunblock my legs. It's nice. It brought, like, zinc. Yeah. I need that really bad because being on the boat for four hours today, my lips are going to come undone. Well, also, you know, if you wear, like, chapstick in the sun, it's your lips for easier. Oh, do you know what makes sense? Put it on every second. Put it on every second. Yeah. That's like my, I can't. I haven't, like, nothing on my lips. Yeah. Okay, well, good. So I'm, like, their number one target. Anyways, we're off. Oh, my God. My eyelids. The sunburn. Yeah. My lips. All right. Well, off to the day. We're matching. We're matching. We're matching. We're matching. We are matching. We also, oh, yeah. We're just talking about the couples and such. Yes. Yeah. Anyways. Yeah. Swimsuit is airy. This is H&M. This is, like, my one that I bring if I'm not, like, afraid to, like, ruin it. You know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, bye. This hat. Princess Pauly. Shoes. See you later. Danny and I are back on our Shirley Temples. You guys watched the vlogs probably three years ago at this point. Can we and I went on tour? Yeah, we did. We did. Never forget. And we love Shirley Temples. No dirty Shirley's. No charity. It's fine. I would like, yeah. I think anti-straws here. I think so. No straws. Save the turtles. Save the turtles. So beautiful. We're just sitting out here. We're going on the boat in a few hours. Perfect. Hi, guys. Oh, wait. My settings. Okay. Look at how pink I look in the camera. I feel like it looks more pink in the camera. Whoa, wait. We both do. I don't think that we look like that. I don't think so either. Are we gonna? No. Okay. Okay. No, but not, like, if we look way, we're, we look so pink. Oh, now it's kind of normal. It was really pink on the camera. Anyways, we're about to go on the boat, which is really what we've been looking forward to the entire time. It's so true. I'm considering getting a coffee to go. Oh, really? I just don't want to sit on the boat. Is there a balcony? I would rather have. I don't know, but you still want to sit on it? No. Definitely not. I definitely don't want to. Just vlog shots, guys. Yep. I feel like. I'm gonna quickly, this makes no sense because I'll probably get in the water. So I'm gonna just run a little straighty straight. Brooke? Yeah. Little straighty straight. You look rich, basically. I love it. It's actually my private boat. Oh, yeah. Actually. Thank you so much, by the way. Thank you. My timing. But can't even hear us. Oh, thank you. To the boat we go. Everyone is vlogging. They're literally all the same vlogs. We are taking our water taxi to our boat. Bring the bottles and we can put it on. We just played Welcome to New York for Danny on the boat. It's just so cute. I know, but it's still so sweet. I got ready. My hair is not dry. My set is Abercombe. Shoes are these heels from Revolve. I will leave them. They're the best heels. They wrap up and stay like so comfortable. I'm awake with heels. I love them. She was like, no, that might just be us. Here we are. Perfect. Oh my god, speaking of Nutella. Speaking of Nutella. Maybe worse. Way worse. Also, Morgo has more sunburn than me.  It's really rough. The drama, Outfit of the Night. Soma. Skin. Sorry. This is, I think it's from Somersault, but it's like the rifle paper call. It's cute. I see that. It's very, I know, which normally is on my bag, but however the material of these is incredible. My shirt is from Lonely Ghost. Oh, whoa. Indie blue. This song reminds me of you in the back. It's like, cute. So cute. And my pants are Revolve. Love. Cute. Like silk. I know, I love them so much. I have no time to talk. Good morning everyone. We had a great time yesterday on the boat. And I did it last night and we came back and we watched YouTube videos on the TV. Went to bed, woke up. We have some of us have massages today. Danielle and Brooke already went to theirs. Actually, I think Katie. I actually don't know the scheduling, but we're gonna get on to the pool and then we have a massage later. Need to get some iced coffee. Oh, I forgot my wallet. Margot has really mad blisters on her lips, guys. I cannot believe that I'm the one who's not sunburned. So. Oh, look at us. It's vlogging. Cute. Got a vanilla sweet cream cold brew. The girls have been loving these. We're about to meet them now. Beautiful. Just had a Margot. The only two hats I need. So cute. It's almost 11.30. So we're actually going to head off to our, actually our couples massage. So, you know. Off to the spa we go. Margot wants to do a cold punch. No. No. You know what? Fine. That's okay with me. Okay, I'll do it if you do it. I think we should heat up. I think we should heat up. I think that's worse. I think that's worse. Okay, let's do the hot tub first. Okay. This is the hot tub. We're currently in the hot tub. We're going to cold punch. No. I actually feel fine because my burns are right here. Where is your burn? I have burned. Oh. Are you ready? I think we can punch. Like, we can't set it. I've never appreciated this before. I'm leaving. I'm normally always excited to go home, but I'm actually very sad to leave. But I am wearing the Oak Hideout. This is one of our tops. It's not at launch, but in a Chile. It's my first time wearing it. I'm clothing brand out, which is very exciting. We're going to go see Lord Elizabeth. We had dinner plans with her. We got home. We had come to test the house. We faced them down. We got ready. And now we're going out. I'm so excited. Anyways. Cute. We're getting so close to lunch. So the closest you get. Yeah. Off to our last dinner. I'm really sad actually. I'm depressed. I'm really emo. Very sad. Off to Baguettale for dinner, meaning Lord Elizabeth. High sequence. Hey, don't forget. Clap very hard. Okay. One, two, three. Sad. I hope you guys like the vlogs. I am just so grateful for you guys. I'm so grateful for this trip. It's so nice. It is so nice having such amazing girlfriends. And then also traveling. It's just the coolest thing ever. And I'm so grateful. That was probably the nicest vacation I've ever gone on in my life. And it was unreal. It also made me think I'm going to prioritize trips and traveling with friends. Even though I keep saying I'm going to do that, it made me really solidify that choice because it was just so much fun. Anyways, the last night we somehow ended up at Baguettale surrounded by like half of SMU. So I don't know how I'd leave Texas to be with Texas again, always. And we participated a little bit in College Spring Break. So that was fun. Anyways, hope you guys enjoyed this vlog. I have so many photos, TikToks, everything up on Instagram and TikTok. I'm shooting for the okay tomorrow, which I am so excited for. So subscribe if you guys haven't already. Love you guys so much and I will talk to you soon. Bye.


Okay, so my name is Sandy Baird and I welcome people to this discussion on this beautiful evening and I'm so happy that people are taking the time to listen to this discussion. And our South Burlington City Councilor Megan Emery, who serves on the board of South Burlington, she's also Professor of French at UVM and she has a lot to say. I guess, and also are you up for election in the fall or when does this, no, okay. I was just reelected in March. Okay, well congratulations to you I'm sure that are you delighted about that it must be. Yeah, yeah, I enjoy it right. Well, it's good. Meaningful work. Yes, yes, that's true and we all have looked for meaningful work. Okay, so I entitled this, what we know what we don't know or this is what we know and how about the airport expansion. I don't think many people do know much about it I'm welcoming Jimmy least has been studying this for a long time and others who are very curious about what the airport is doing. And that's why we asked Megan and sort of like a report of what's happening in South Burlington and how it will affect all of our lives, including in Burlington so Megan take it away what's going on and again this is the the city council from South Burlington who's Megan Emery. Okay, go ahead Megan. So what is happening. Thank you Sandy and I had said to you earlier that it was a good title for the segment what is what is happening at the airport. And the reason for that is because when we had received the rezoning request and the airport. Where do you get these requests where do they come from. Well the airport director had approached the city of South Burlington last year. And came forward with a request for rezoning 11 acres of the approximately. Was it 44 acres of land that the city had acquired through the home acquisition program. And the director asked for 11 of those acres to be rezoned from residential. And can I ask you what happened to the homes. Yes, the airport has a noise profile. And since before my time on the city council, the noise produced by aircraft, you know at use of the airport have has been used as a, as a, as a, you know, kind of a baseline in order to determine what our compatible uses of the land surrounding the airport and the the current noise configuration that is considered to be incompatible is 65 dnl which is a 24 hour average. We had homes prior to my arrival in city council in 2008 that fell within that 65 dnl line. And beginning with my, my original term on the city council I saw homes that added up to over well over 150 that were taken down and taken down. It was quite a shock and that was through the noise mitigation program that our airport and Burlington City Council had selected for their noise mitigation. And so they they purchased the homes using FAA funds these funds come from fees that we as air travelers pay to to airports it's it's like a federal tax that goes to the FAA FAA uses those funds to purchase homes demolish them and relocate the the residents. It's not a taking because why isn't it the notion that it's voluntary. Ah, really. Wow, is it voluntary. This is of course something that is a very sticky sticky topic here in South Burlington.  Many people felt compelled to sell to the airport. Many people did not, and they felt that federal government had intruded on their lives and so we still do have homes within that 65 dnl contour. So when we, you know, receive this request, the planning commission, which is our, our body that deliberates on, you know, what the zoning should be among other development and land use questions. They formed a subcommittee and the the homes that had originally been on those 11 acres had long been gone, but directly across the street from those 11 acres, there were still homes, and homes with I would say populations that are considered to to be federally protected populations for socioeconomic reasons. What does that mean that they were, what does it mean. Well, many are immigrants. Some are new Americans. They are also not in the highest income bracket. And so the federal government sees those, you know, groups of individuals to to deserve some kind of protection. And we had very articulate members of the public, including one woman who owns with her family, at least one of those buildings, perhaps more who is a landlord and rents apartments there and she made a very strong case. To keep not only the houses, but the quality of life and to not intrude further by increasing airport operations outside of the current fence line. So they wanted to expand outside of the current fence line along airport Parkway, which for those of you who aren't familiar with South Burlington, if you wish to get to St. Or, or to Essex you can go down White Street turn left on to airport Parkway which will take you to line kiln. If you turn left if you turn right you get to go to the air base and then to our we have additional residential housing back there in addition to a road heading to Wilston. So that is the road that they, they wish to expand upon. So they made this request. The airport made this request to your planning commission. That's right. It goes through our planning staff, and the planning staff works with an appointed body they're an advisory body to the city council, and a group of seven, seven members. And they thought that it was important for this to be vetted by a subcommittee of residents, which I thought was was quite astute of them. And I think that what I have since I got on the council in 2008 have, I think been on the receiving end of a lot of decisions. And as a city council, we have vigorously advocated to have a larger voice in the discussions regarding those master plans regarding in addition to the master plans. And also the mitigation programs, especially when it has a direct impact on our, on our residents on our tax base. Of course, our tax base took hit when, you know, nearly 200 homes were taken down. Okay, so this was the, again, the removal of more homes. And this would not have involved the, the, no, this would not have but the concern was, is that by allowing more airport, but active airport uses so they wanted to have hangers there for private aviation. They were talking about snow equipment removal. It came through that the Burlington tech center was interested perhaps and relocating there. And that would, that would need more noise that would need more traffic people would need to come with their cars to park to get into work or to get into use their aircraft. And these are generally members of the public who park, just like, you know, park and ride. Park your car, and then you get in your airplane, your private airplane. Wow, really. Yeah. I'm a prime location for a lot of people. And all of that traffic would increase, of course, the noise envelope. And whether that would figure into the FAA, you know, calculations regarding, you know, whether that envelope would expand and more homes would be would be impacted but as it turns out the homes that are currently there are within the envelope. So it is, these are people who have voluntary, voluntarily decided to stay. They stay, they want to stay, in other words. Right. That's right. Well, you know, where else do they go. Yeah, exactly. This is our most affordable neighborhood. Right, you're saying that it that it is an affordable neighborhood, right. Well, we're struggling, we're all struggling to, you know, what is affordable mean these days, right. That's another more than one hour discussion all together. Right, exactly. So what happened. So what happened was, we had three options, right. We could allow it. We could say no, we don't allow it, or we could do something else, right. And so the something else at one point we were considering let the, the planning commission as they were now we're going through our comprehensive plan. So that the basic vision of our community that is the basis for all of our land use to, you know, plans that they could at that point determine how to use the 11 acres that the airport was requesting at that time. Or we could say we'll grant you so much, you know, but not any more than this or within these parameters or limitations. And we decided as a committee was we were going to explore all three. But I am my own, having been contacted by people in the general aviation community, I went and did some, some, some just research, I looked into why there was a crunch for land, especially knowing that on the other side of the airport so that's Williston Road or root right. That is where a lot of those buildings, you know, are, and, and normally should be. It's just, it seems to be also an area where there's more land, if we actually look at it and so having talked with people I learned that there was opportunity for and that that land is empty or does that have houses. Also, though there are now that this is our airport industrial. So on the airport parkway side so that's the side where the airport was seeking to expand its airport where these uses are allowed. All right, but we have a specific a stipulation and our land use regulations that it has to be compatible with our residential neighborhood which is adjacent right abutting it. On the other side, we have airport industrial with a little bit more manufacturing uses allowed, and then across the street we have an industrial uses as well so there's no, there's no residential building on the other side which is what we call the general aviation side. And this is a part that I also wanted us to address because it's a very, I would say, you know, best kept secret of the airport this general aviation side, where we have the tech center, we have the Vermont technical college we have the aviation school of aviation and it's it's an amazing asset and provides a real value to the people here of the state and to the region by training pilots by training airport and air, sorry, airplane mechanics. And of course now that we have beta there. They're seeking to have an a campus that would include education and Why don't you say what beta is. Well, beta that was that is definitely been in the news. Beta is is a startup that has already employed hundreds of people seeking to expand developing electric vehicles aircraft. And primarily now for for delivering, you know, not people but but merchandise right so they have with Amazon and UPS contracts already that they that they are, you know, looking to to make good on I believe I don't, don't need to to beta plans just yet but I know that they definitely have received funds in order to develop merchandise delivery system right not people only merchandise that that is kind of their, I would say kind of stroke of genius that they're not the only company in the United States to be working on electric aircraft, but they are the first to focus primarily on merchandise as opposed to people, which has fewer hurdles to cross in order for it to to get off the ground, so to speak, because of course people are you have you have many higher safety hurdles to cross right so they There's really a campus over there of all these. Yes, there, there is a big manufacturing facility that has finally been cleared through our development review board. There was now, let's see, I'm trying to think maybe nine months ago, maybe a little less. Yeah, maybe seven, eight months ago. There was real concern within the general aviation. So that's the Burlington Technical Center, Vermont Tech College, etc, etc, where beta was basically going to be taking up all of the remaining land, they were wanting to build an 18,000 square foot. manufacturing building. And, and so, going there I went there in March, I believe, maybe February as well. I got on the ground and I looked and I saw what they needed and I actually connected Burlington Tech Center with the Burlington School District, so that I mean, with beta and the Burlington School District with beta they could perhaps find a way for their building needs to be met there on that campus in a way where those students, you know we're talking about hundreds of students who have excellent career opportunities when they come out of the the Burlington Tech Center they can some of them take it for college credit, they can move directly into being an, you know, pilot or a mechanic or, you know, they go into the military or, and they have a really vibrant campus there. And so I really saw that as a gem and a lost opportunity, and I would say a lack of planning that would have perhaps led to our board to prove this this change of zoning and then to have Burlington Tech Center move to the opposite end of the airfield. So, the research panned out the research panned out, I was able to connect people who needed to be connected. In order to find I would say a better just partnership. And, and, you know, these connections were not being made under the previous airport director, which I was that Jean Richard. That was, that was Jean Richard. He is long gone. I don't know exactly I think he was suing but I haven't heard any updates about that. But since since Nick Longo has taken up the acting directorship. The plans are proceeding I've been reading up on that and seven days and and the T digger. And, you know, they might have a wing of betas new manufacturing facility, which is a wonderful, I think, partnership for for these young people. And for this new, you know, hopefully successful startup. And that would also, I think, create more room for the other existing entities there to to expand or to renovate. So it's a, for now, it's it seems to to mean that our neighborhood here on the other side, which is the west side of the airfield can enjoy, you know, the current views of the mountains and and we're going to hopefully see the plans that our own citizens committee put together the Chamberlain neighborhood airport planning committee back in 2018 issued some recommendations for bike trails and paths with benches and viewing areas because that's a beautiful view of the field. It's it's just a beautiful view of the mountains there. And, and the acting director Nick Longo said that that was something he would, he would be interested in, in, you know, seeing move forward so the problem then that you, your zoning, what did you have to consider I mean they what did the airport want. They wanted to use that prime location for for viewing and for just kind of a park like area where residents walk their dogs. They wanted to, they wanted to rezone it for a more industrial purpose, they wanted wanted to rezone that idyllic area, right, for industrial purposes, right, right. They wanted to put up hangers those. Okay, so what happened. So we said no, because I came back with the information, saying that there, there seems to be kind of a lost opportunity on the other side of the airport for these entities to be able to, you know, really develop that campus in a coherent way where they're coordinating with one another, and where everybody would like to be, I think, close to to beta right we have this aviation school that again, students get college credit it's an amazing program, compared to other programs in the United States students in half the time receive higher credentials in order to become airline pilots. It's it's an amazing program. What are enrollments like our romance. They are under 100 for that specific aviation school I know that the Burlington tech center has over 360 students, and that's kind of the whole tech center but with regard to the aviation I'm not quite sure on the numbers. Yeah, but but it's a going concern in other words and it would be apt to grow correct you think. Well, if, if, which no there's interest if there's interest and if there's the need which currently there is is a big need apparently right right I mean everybody's being stuck right. I mean we're in changing times this is where we're definitely and you know that was another concern that our committee heard is that we are in climate crisis. Is this the time for the airport to be expanding all these private jets. And talk, talk about that what do you mean private jets on the part of people who can afford private jets is that what you're talking about. Well, people can afford private jets, not everybody. But some people can, and they'd rather be in Burlington than in another airfield right or in Rutland or up in Swanton or in Montpelier here. And so there is a waitlist for getting a parking spot just like if you had a, you know, a boat and Lake Champlain, you'd probably right be seeking to get as close to Burlington as possible. Right. And so we're, I think that because we're attractive. We're a victim of our own success and in some ways we're also benefiting from that success. So but with the climate crisis that was that was an argument is that something that we are invested into the detriment of affordable housing to have these people park at our airport and and be able to How does that affect affordable housing. Well, the concern was that having those hangers just abutting residential residential properties. I think that it would, where's the end right if we were to rezone that land to accommodate some of those, some of those pilots, and these are private people, you know, these are citizens like you and me, although I certainly don't have a private But I do know people who do that they, you know, why, why would that stop there. Why would it not continue and so to turn it into a real hub. Whereas it should be a residential neighborhood. So what happened. Well, we said no, and, and it went back to the planning commission and they had a meeting. They heard our, we had co chairs report on what we had decided and why. Longo the acting airport director was there as well. And he said he accepted, he accepted the no, and that he wanted to really honor that that planning document this the snap see Chamberlain neighborhood planning committee back in 2018 came out with recommendations for bike trails and benches and more park like, you know amenities there. So he wanted to honor that and move forward with that that one building. The FAA had agreed could go within the the fence. Perhaps it's for snow removal equipment I haven't been able to find that out. But everything else that was really putting pressure on that side of the airport has been able to be, I think, satisfied on the other side which is the more industrial side. So what happened road happened with this plan then at this point. So he, I just was on the airport's website today it's still the 2021 plan so I have not seen the new, the new draft, but that one will, at least that part of it those 11 acres will not be moving forward. And you said and did you receive any citizens input about that. Yes, we've received a petition. The resident landlord, I actually Adam says her name, and a group of citizens went door to door they collected over 200 signatures. We also had majority of people speak at the meetings against the, the request for the rezoning of the land. I only heard one resident when I was going door to door campaigning last February, speak in favor of it. And the others who spoke in favor it were the private aviation folks who were really, you know, concerned that with beta's plans to expand they squeezed out, and it seems that with more coordinated planning. Just attention to to what needs to be there and what makes sense and what actually, I think enhances what is a real asset to our state and to our region there that those needs have been satisfied so far so. I think it should be, I think, seen as a real positive outcome that, again, South Burlington's planning processes made possible. And so it all the more reason to include South Burlington in the airport planning processes. But South Burlington is or is not usually considered. We have had to really, really wrestle for that, that right and looking at home with Burlington. Well, yeah, and with the airport director. Over the years, they're there, you know, it's like checking a box. We put together a committee. They didn't really have a voice they didn't really, you know, speak up in a way that could alter the plans because the plans had already been determined by the experts, according to members of this technical advisory committee that came into being after a resolution that I put together and the city council approved in 2017 to the FAA saying, Dear FAA, South Burlington needs to have a voice in this planning processes and FAA said just as and I pointed to the federal committee and the FAA said, you know what, airport, you have to include South Burlington and so they developed this committee. And I had mixed results. I would say that the citizens who took part in that committee felt that they were, you know, they're simply to provide legitimacy to plans that they were not able to really influence one way or the other. So who is the main is Burlington, the city of Burlington, they own the airport, right? City of Burlington on the airport. And so over the years has the role then of South Burlington been diminished by that ownership by the city of Burlington. And this has has been sort of a fight between, I wouldn't say that but sort of an adversarial contest between South Burlington and Burlington. I would say since the home buyout plan started in 2007. A year before I got on the city council, until the FAA stepped in and said airport, you need to include South Burlington so that was in 2017 2018. And over a span of nearly a decade. It was, it was pretty tense. Yeah, it was pretty tense that was when the city of Burlington and the airport were suing the city of South Burlington about what about property taxes. And it was, yeah, it was a very tense time. And I, you know, it remains to be seen there's now a search going for the new airport director and truly who is in that position will will determine, you know, the, I would say, how healthy that relationship remains I would say that since 2018. And paid to South Burlington but I would say also that our, our council and our citizens have become empowered to speak up and to really, you know, use the powers that we have at our disposal which are zoning powers. So that that is a new, you know, a new chapter in the relationship. And it remains to be seen. You know how this will this will develop over the years but I, I feel very strongly that it's, it's going to be critical that this neighborhood remain and thrive, you know, to South Burlington's future. We have a school here. It's needed. It's, we can't tear down a school. We have our city center, you know, just a block away. It makes no sense for this airport to to be raised our AZ ED and be replaced, you know, by mega airport, especially when air travel, unless you know something occurs that I don't foresee. You know, expect air travel to remain over the next century. What do you mean at the current levels you mean. Right, right. What about the military. We have no say over the military. Sandy. But if I could, if I could remake the world. We, we would have, you know, a different mission here at this airport and we hear all of the refugees coming out of Ukraine. Speak about you know just seeing people in military garb and how traumatic it is and we have the same refugee population living in neighborhoods and when you ski and in South Burlington. There are planes and again the trauma is real that. And I find that this is not the appropriate place for for F 35s or even for the previous f 16s with their enhanced engines. Before we get there. So what are other other plans for expansion that citizens of this region should be aware of. The airport still has on its plan the desire to have an additional, they call it 14 and exit 14 and so that road along the west side of the airfield what we call airport Parkway would be an airport road that would go directly into the interstate. That is their desire. I don't foresee that happening in my lifetime. They, why did they want that. It would just provide an exit that is, you know, specific to the airport, so that airport, you know, if you go into a major airport.  I haven't gotten that yet. No, we are prioritizing other exits through our regional planning commission. So, definitely exit 14, which is in South Burlington, it's between Burlington and South Burlington is it is the first one that needs to have some attention. And I think that the results are coming out this summer 12 be your exit 13 are being centered. Okay, so then let's get back to the f 35 military do does the military play any role in any of the plans to expand. The military, you know, having visited the general aviation side. I'm sorry, you're muted. I don't know what happened. Can you hear me. I can't hear. I can hear you. I can hear you. Can you hear you to think you're muted, Megan. No, I think it's your computer. I can hear Megan. What happens. I don't know how to correct this. Okay. Sandy, can you hear me. No. I don't know why something happened. I'm going to try to call Jenna. Well, yes, I can you hear any of anyone else. I'm trying to call Sandy. I'm right here. Yeah, okay. Yeah. I can't hear anything, but. Speaker phone she can hear through your phone. So I just talk or what. Yeah. I can hear you. Megan, I have her on speaker phone. Hopefully that will work. Okay. And we won't get feedback in some weird way.  She should be able to charge you. So should I stay on the phone or what? Yes. Anyway. Okay. Comment on then on the military. Yeah. I think it's important for us to understand that the military is, is really. Valued at the airport. I don't see. That they will go at they, they not only have a base, but they travel in and out of the FBO, which is at heritage aviation. And they are also, I think. You know, you know, seen at the aviation school as well. So the, you know, the aviation Academy. So it's, it's, it's, they are a fixture. And I think, you know, I think it was 1984. When Senator Leahy turned the air guard. I gave it a combat mission. That for pilots. You know, and for pilots and mechanics to, to see these technological wonders, which are military jets take off that there, there is a real attraction there. So we definitely have, you know, a cultural conflict between that culture at the airport and, and then a segment of our population. That does not feel that this is conducive to, to a good life for them. As we know, we've seen incredible efforts. And Jimmy Lee says here online. I know that he's made an incredible effort to underscore how the noise impacts the health and well-being. Of people. And again, going door to door as someone who was campaigning last winter, our people were in tears talking to me about the impacts on their lives. And their health. So. This is not the place. I understand why the draws there. And it's, it's really, it's an incompatible relationship. Can that divorce occur? I don't know. We're just in a very incompatible relationship for many of us. And do you think that the military will want to expand also and have more. Presence. At the airport. So if you're talking about Vermont's air guard and the guard. I think, yes, they would like to, if you're talking about the U S Air Force, they don't have any skin in the game other than protecting the assets that are already here. So. I think, yes, I think the guard has a strong presence in our state. And I am not anti military. I, I think that. We as a state have been supportive of the guard and rightly so. We have members who have gone into combat and. To serve our thanks. For truly being willing to put their lives on the line. For, for, you know, I would say some benefits, but, but certainly. Well-deserved benefits. Very, you know, it's something we do have to, you know, Honor. And at the same time, do we need to have these. Machines. That have a tremendous impact on the well-being of residents in our midst. And that's, that's a different question. And I understand that Vermont is not a wealthy state. You know, I have friends in Arkansas.  I see the military to be a dead end. I certainly not an economic develop. Development tool. We know that healthcare and education. There have been many studies. Our, our, our more conducive to economic development. And so I, I think that anybody to claim that the, the base is here. As an economic driver that, that is a nice little sound bite. That doesn't have a lot of substance to it. Do they have heritage and history here? Yes. And, and so that is something that we can certainly. Honor. But we are, we are impacting. You know, I have students at UVM who roll their eyes when the 35s take off. You know, it's. This, this is, this has an impact. And UVM is safely tucked away. It's certainly not adjacent or under the flight path. But it, it first, for the students there, it's, it's a. You know, it's, it's an inconvenience. So it's. Yeah. I mean, I, I, if I, again, if I could make the world. The better place I would like it to be, there would, there would not be a 35 slang in and out of. Burlington international airport. Okay. Well, how about any questions or thoughts for Megan? From our audience, I noticed that Jimmy lease is, is, are you raising your hand, Jimmy? Yes, I'd like to go ahead. So I think that the best way to on. Honor the Vermont Air National Guard is to make them. Follow their own rules. You know, if you play a sport, you have to follow the rules. You're not. Just because people think you're a great athlete doesn't mean you can just want only do anything you want. There are rules for every sport. And you must follow them if you want to play. And I don't think the air guard is doing that with their own military regulations. You don't intermingle military. This is. This is. Military 101. This is the first thing you learn is to protect. The civilian population. You don't just go in and blast the civilians. So they have five rules. They're called the laws of war. Or international humanitarian war. No intermingling of military forces with populated areas. It's called distinction. And the reason is. That, you know, if there's going to be combat. Those civilians are legitimately targeted. If military forces are intermingled with them. That's what's happening in Ukraine right now. And the U.S. is saying, oh, the Russians are violating the laws of war. Well, right here in Vermont. The Vermont Air National Guard is violated. The laws of war as far as honor. You don't have honor. If you're hurting civilians, you're an outlaw organization. They know that there's huge impact on the civilian population. They're doing it knowingly. They're doing it willingly. Intentionally. If they want to practice with their F. 35 jets and have a base, they must do it remote from populated areas under their own rules. So now this is a state agency. This isn't the federal government doing it. It's the state of Vermont. That runs the training of the National Guard. It's not just in Vermont that the state of Vermont. The, the training of the National Guard. It's not just in Vermont that the state is in control of the training of its own National Guard. Every state. The training is. It's come, you know, interestingly, this is something that the founders established in the Constitution. That the. They divided up the powers. And among the powers was. The federal government. Controls the arming of the National Guard, but the states conduct the training of the National Guard. So when the federal government decided. Arming that's basing, you know, to bring the jets here. That was a federal decision. But now to conduct to the training, the daily training, a few hundred times a month. And when we're going to have these flights of the F 35. It's totally under the state. So the state. If the city of South Burlington, I just conclude by saying, if the city of South Burlington was determined and understood what the rules were. And made itself. And extended this victory that we just had over the expansion and center right now, let's learn some more. Let's get together with a new ski with South with Burlington with Williston. Let's push the state to stop this in a city. The problem is that they're in a densely populated area. And that has to stop so that. So that the public is not terrified and heard. And so that the military conforms to its own regulations. Okay, Megan. Do you have any response to that? I would say that we, if we had had a jury trial, as opposed to a judge determining the outcome of a number of lawsuits over the F 35, we probably would have had. A different, a different scenario. Okay. So wait a minute. Can I ask you, there were lawsuits about this, correct? Oh, seven. Two. Two. Okay. Go ahead, Megan. Yeah. And what was the outcome? Not only here, but right. And well, they, the outcome was that we have no say over the, the federal government's decision to base the jets here was the outcome with a judge as opposed to a jury. But what I wanted to add in addition to that is that thanks to people like Jimmy, and I hope I am including myself and people will include myself in this. People speaking up and not giving up. And I think that will eventually, you know, mean that people will prevail over machines. And so we cannot feel hopeless. We cannot feel that, you know, no matter what we do, it's hopeless because we have already, I would say, held the line in, in more ways than one. And it's because we've just flexed our muscle. And we have to make it work for democracy and we have to make it work for us. And that means, you know, an effort on our part. And so I think that Jimmy is an example of just never giving up and never taking no, you know, for an answer. And because I agree with Jimmy, this, this is. This should not be happening. This is wrong. And I think that. That there are other. There was a debate last night. And one of the purveyors of the F 35 who's running for the US Senate, and Peter Welch. He was one of the big supporters who foisted it on us, even though there was a vote in Burlington to abolish or to cancel the F 35. And he did not have even one word of positivity towards the F 35. When he was asked about it. First he ducked the question, then the second time he was asked about it. He diverted to how wonderful the guard is for its terrific COVID response, which was true, but it just showed that he has nothing good to say about it. Nobody in power is wanting to. Toute their support for the F 35 anymore. So this is a, this is really now low hanging fruit. We just have to work and continue to persist and organize and have events and have victories. And I think it won't be forever. It'll, we will win on this. And I think it's, I mean, if they can't, if they can't say anything positive. So I think it's really, really important to work with. With Senator Leahy, he no longer talks about it as a positive. As good for them. For anybody. But, but this Jimmy, is anybody asking that question of them anymore. Or are people. I know they're a group of activists who continue to ask that question. But are they asking it of Patrick Leahy or Peter Welch or questions? Well it did come up yesterday after the debate and so I think the questions are being asked but it is but I think underneath I think people as as Megan said people are they may be they may be suffering but they feel helpless about it they feel that there's nothing I do I do they feel and and this is a this is the this is how this is how these terrible things we had we had we have had a long history of horrors in this country going back to slavery and and it's because people at some point they finally say would determine if we've had enough and then we get union organizing or we get mass demonstration of of women like we had a week ago um and um it's somehow things do come together eventually and I think that's what's going to happen here as people um as people get fed up with it because it is a horror and well for the last few months it hasn't been as bad because eight of the planes were sent to Europe yes so we've had some relative peace and quiet and we but when they come back it's going to be uh the nightmare is going to resume and I so hopefully at that point we can do something and I think that one of the great things is that we have some city counselors like Megan yeah really care about this issue and want to do something about it and um and I think through our leadership our elected leadership we can do we can really make it uh make some impact and and develop um more confidence in the public that we can go start to this right are there other questions are there other questions or thoughts but Jane Jane yeah yeah yeah hi sorry I was muted I wanted to know how the what the state what on the state level how has this like the house on armed services committee how what do they have a role and um how do they deal with the military with the military and how how what state laws are there about the about the about the about the about the about the about the guard and are they enforced well I I am probably not the person to answer this question but yes they have committees on both this in both the state senate and and the house um it's housing military in general affairs I believe um and the military definitely has a presence in Montpelier especially when there are questions pertaining to the military um and so for instance there was a bill um in the house it got through the senate I believe one or two years ago um that was um banning uh nuclear weapons carriers in the state which the F-35 is and it has not yet gotten out of committee and it depends on who the committee chair is so uh representative Tom Stevens who I believe is a Burlington representative is the chair of that committee and he is the person who needs to be persuaded in order to have that bill taken off the wall as they say it's pinned on a wall and if they're going to move it into the chamber of the house it has to come off the wall of the committee and be passed um so that right now there there is um there is not a law that would uh Jimmy's gonna probably have something to say but um that would stop them from from doing those flights I will add you know speaking with neighbors again today um they live closer to the airport I'm four blocks away and and they're just two blocks away that with uh the pilots and the jets off in Europe those who remain um are flying very according to the people who are most impacted I would say you know not as intrusively so there is a way to to land um which is just straight down onto the airfield as opposed to doing you know these maneuvers over the airfield which um they had initially said they would not do but they are they are doing but now that several jets and pilots are are no longer here um they are they're not doing the maneuvers so there is a question about rules um that isn't necessarily the state law but rules that we should definitely revisit I think as a community I believe that Lucy is that your hand up Lucy yep that's my hand up go ahead next yeah I just I really want to appreciate this um thank you Sandy for putting this together and Megan so much for all of your great work over the years and I really it's really helpful to just have somebody um who's fought for a while and just says this is wrong we we know it's wrong I've obviously been and not involved lately but involved in the past with fighting the F-35s you know living in the old north end of Burlington we get we get a blast of it but I always feel so um disturbed for especially my neighbors in UNISC who are suffering the families that suffer there and I know your your neighbors there Megan in south Burlington but um thanks to you for your good work and Jimmy for all your great work and um I you know I'm still here and ready to fight and I I think we don't give up we keep fighting that's all I wanted to say that's good thank you that's helpful we have uh Jane Jane and then Jimmy yeah um yeah this is actually a a United States wide issue there are several states that I mean that have the same problem as we do and and if the states that band together I think that with that I think the federal I mean I think this is a federal issue I mean issue I think um more I mean that has to be dealt with I think on the federal level and I think the states have to get have to band together to get to to to get the to get better to get better well so on a federal level to um un-noised mitigation because it's it's it's it's going to continue and the states because we met they make up the United States I would have I think but have but have but have the power I mean I can foresee even a constitutional convention I mean to be able to in any ways possible I don't know but anyways okay yeah right well there are countries where airports have been moved I I know that the Munich airport moved out of the city uh specifically because of the impacts of noise on on the health of the residents around that airport um and if this country and I you know if could be done at the federal level of course now we know through the Supreme Court decision the EPA can't simply say that the the legislature our congress has to say it um but if we get there that would be something but people good people need to run and then people need to vote for good people that's okay I think we're kind of almost out of time did jimmy did you have your hand up no I would just say that also airports here have closed we had one in Brooklyn New York it closed um we had one it's called Stapleton the airport in Denver that closed now we have a new airport 10 miles outside the city so I think that if South Burlington put uh said no to everything the airport wanted uh then they'd find a way to move outside the city um so I think and and I think that we did say no to this airport expansion when we just say we just say we may just make it really hard for them and um and then they'll they'll leave but also the uh the Air National Guard you know they have an air base that was designed as an air base right across the lake it's only uh less than two miles away why not use that why do they they're specifically purposely and intentionally hurting civilians that's what's going on here okay I I believe we're out of time tonight and thank you all it was great having you Megan and all the people jimmy congratulations always on your great work on this issue and and many other issues I do have a question but I think we should explore that the next time is with all this not this stuff about climate change why does nobody think about criticizing the f-35s for being responsible for for climate change and the military I would think that that was the biggest cause of climate change is the military war and instruments like the f-35 I don't honestly get it I think you might want to thank you all for being here particularly Megan jimmy but all of you also for keeping in touch with this very important issue next week I'm discussing further the demise of roe v wade and it'll be like a community discussion so please join us then thank you