Hello, and thank you for being here today and taking the time to attend this seminar focused on Octavo systems system and package technology and how it can help you get to market faster with ST's MP1 processor We are pleased to be an authorized partner to ST micro electronics And we will be showing you how to implement a design around our OSD 32 MP1, which is a complete MP1 system inside a small BGA package When we talk about embedded systems, there are three fundamental things every engineer wants To be able to do more with less time build complex compact systems that are reliable and easy to use Deliver impressive products under budget These are fundamental across any application and any industry, especially when electronic devices are getting Feature rich and more complex by the day The solution to these fundamental questions lies in system and package technology Before I dive into the specifics about system and package I wanted to take a step back and talk to you about Octavo systems and who we are Octavo systems is a system integration company We provide system level integration with expertise in system and package technology Our goal is to improve the capability and value of your products through our integration Basically we integrate heterogeneous electronic components and make it simpler for you to use So you can either take advantage of a technology that you wouldn't have been able to normally or just remove a chunk of Development from your path and allow you to have more time to spend adding new features and new functionality That will help differentiate your product in the market We were founded by three senior technology leaders from Texas Instruments Bill High ran a number of businesses at TI Gene France started and built the DSP business for TI and became principal technology fellow for Texas Instruments And Masood Murtuzza is known globally as an IC packaging expert and an innovator They got together back in 2013 and started working on the idea to bring system and package technology to any embedded design This was the genesis of Octavo systems and starting with Texas Instruments AM335X We released our first product in 2016 Since then we have had broad adoption in market and have begun expanding our product portfolio To include other processor families that can benefit from system and package technology Today, we will be talking about our latest SIP offering built around the ST micro electronics MP1 family of processors Just a little bit about me. So you know who's speaking with you today After completing my master's in electrical and computer engineering from Bryce University I joined Octavo in 2015 in the applications engineering team Today, I lead our customer support team and I'm responsible for our software strategy and development I have expertise in Linux development and assist our team and customers with everything from design Review and any support required for integrating our SIP into your design So earlier I said system and package can solve the most pressing challenges of electronic design in our generation So what is a system and package? Let's discuss System and package uses a set of advanced semiconductor manufacturing technologies to integrate at silicon level We start off with the wafer that we get from silicon manufacturers like ST We saw that up into each individual die and then we put those down onto a substrate using IC manufacturing Techniques like wire bond flip chip or something similar We take those die and pair them up with other components like RAM Non-volatile memory resistors capacitors oscillators and other discrete components We put all these heterogeneous components onto a substrate the substrate is basically a very small PCB It's made out of the same of our four material, but with geometries that are very very small Then we mold it to encapsulate put balls on it Singulate it and mark it at the end. We have a single device that looks like a standard IC component But inside of that standard IC component is an entire system You can see the guts of what's inside one of our products here It's got your processor your power management your memory and all the passive components that go along with it and make it a system That's why we say it's a component by construction and a system by design Because we're using the IC manufacturing processes to integrate Providing you with a system building block that can be the foundation of your product a Great example of a sip and our newest product is the OST 32 MP 15x Which is based on STM 32 MP 15x family of processors In it we integrate the SOC a PMIC DDR EEPROM and passives All in all over 120 components integrated into a single 18 millimeter by 18 millimeter BGA package At the center of the sip is of course the STM 32 MP 1 SOC Which comes with up to two cortex a7 cores that can run up to 800 megahertz and an m4 core that can run at 200 megahertz There are a number of applications of the MP1 processor For example with the dual core a7's it can decode HD video and with the 3d graphics core enabled Customer can implement a high-performance user interface The heterogeneous architecture with both cortex a and cortex m cores provides the flexibility needed for various applications Including audio and real-time processing It is also possible to build AI into your product with the MP1 Using the cortex a subsystem there is support for tensor flow light The AI package contains AI and computer vision frameworks and application examples For cortex m real-time subsystem There is support for STM 32 cube dot AI which can target the cortex m4 in STM 32 MP 1 Cube dot AI allows you to map and run pre-trained artificial neural networks in the real-time domain of the MP1 Let's take a closer look at the integration of the OST 32 MP 1 As you can see it integrates the STM 32 MP 1 processor the ST PMIC 1a PMIC Up to 1 gigabyte of DDR3 L memory a 4 kilobyte EEPROM the main oscillator and the passives All of this integration coupled with the benefits that come with the system and package are available to you without Having to make any compromises on the performance of the MP1 You can see some of the features of the SOC listed in the blog diagram in addition to the cores connectivity options are vast Including CAN, MIPI DSI, a 24-bit RGB display as well as a camera interface For real-time motor control it provides independent PWM pins and timers There's an ADC and a DAC The device also supports several security features With the system and package you still get access to all the IO and all the peripherals available on the MP1 Plus you get the PMIC and all of its functionality Integrated with the DDR the EEPROM Oscillators and all the passives in a BGA package about the same size as versions of the MP1 standalone So how do we quantify the benefits of the system and package? Let's start off with time How is the system and package going to help you get more time? When you look at a normal microprocessor-based embedded Linux system, it looks a little bit like this If you are looking to implement a discrete MP1-based system yourself This is a simplified blog diagram schematic of what that would look like With all these components that need to be designed, connected, placed in layout, routed and then at the end of the day they need to be validated as well All of this takes time So you do all the work, you build the board, then some things might not work as you want it and then you have to go back and do another spin and all of that takes time as well Using the MP1 system and package though, your system goes from looking like this to something like this And yes, it really is this dramatic because we integrate all of those components inside of a single device Now, all you need to do is put this one device down and eliminate placing close to 140 components 74 nets, all the connections dealing with the power domains, all the complexity that goes along with the DDR All of that gets eliminated for you and you just put this one component down and you know it works You can move on to start developing your system, allowing you to cut up to 9 months of your design time In addition to the simplification of the actual design, we also significantly simplified the layout process through the design of our ball map on our system and package So you will have a 302 ball BGA with 1mm pitch with access to all the IO that you would get on the MP1 We have arranged these IO in an intelligent manner that allows you to access all the IO on the outer 3 layers with your power and ground pins all in the center Now what that does is it actually allows you to escape all the IO in a single layer using low cost PCB design rules So what you see here is an escape with an example which uses 5mm trace width and spacing With low cost vias, nothing exotic like blind or buried vias Basically very low cost design rules allowing you to escape the entire zip in a single layer Now let's quantify how much space system and package saves The OSD32 MP1 basically integrates an entire MP1 system into a single BGA component As you can see here on the left is a picture of all the discrete components on ST's DK2 board that get integrated into our system and package This is up to 64% reduction in size depending on the package of the MP1 that you are using So it's basically an entire MP1 system in the size of either a dime or a 2 cent euro This basically allows you now to put this kind of system and power into spaces and form factors that you wouldn't be able to without system and package This also allows you to reduce the cost of your PCB You can make your PCB smaller reducing the cost there as well So that actually says into how does the zip help me lower my costs Let's take a step back and walk through all the factors here We talked about engineering time savings So if you're saving about 9 months of design time that's a significant saving in engineering cost Also because of the integration and the known working nature of the system and package You are going to have a higher chance of first pass design success reducing multiple spins of a design Each spin costs you both time and money Then there's the PCB cost We talked about the 1 mm pitch spacing of the BGA allowing you to use really the lowest cost design rules available So significantly reducing the cost of your PCB There's also a reduction in the layer count of the PCB We really didn't touch on this earlier but when you're using a DDR You're typically going to need at least 6 layers of PCB However if you look at all of our reference designs there are actually 4 layers Because the integration and the routing of some of these high speed signals is done inside of our system and package Therefore it's something that you don't have to worry about This allows you to reduce the number of layers You're reducing the number of layers using low cost design rules And then because of the size reduction that the system and package provided You can also reduce the area of the PCBs Once you add all of these factors together you get a significantly lower cost PCB The third point assembly is one that doesn't necessarily come to our minds right away But if you think about it the system and package is replacing over 100 components So this would be 100 fewer components that need to be set up and placed in the pick and place machines And all of that is basically time and setup cost that your assembly house is going to charge you to do So reducing the amount of components that they need to manage and set up in their system And the time that it takes the pick and place machine to process your board All adds up to savings for you on each individual board as you go through the manufacturing process Supply chain management is also a really big factor with system and package And something that a lot of our customers really like is the simplification of the supply chain With over 100 components being reduced to 1 Anything that we integrate in our system and package is one less thing for you to worry about with purchasing and inventory management It's just taken care of for you And the final point here that we actually get asked about all the time is the end of life At Octavo we are committed to supporting our products as long as possible Our business has been built around supporting industrial customers that have 10 year plus life cycles So we have really thought about how we are going to handle end of life for individual components at the very beginning of our design And we have processes in place to help alleviate that So that means that Octavo is taking care of the responsibility for dealing with things like dice strings or end of life of TDRs etc The SIP you are going to buy just works and continues to meet the same spec So all the qualification that goes with the end of lifeing of components or changing components or dice strings Octavo takes care of for you and you have one less thing to worry about Once you add all these savings over the lifetime of a product You really can see significant reduction in total cost of ownership compared to some of the other methods that you can choose to implement for your design Another bonus benefit that you get from system and package is the increase in reliability So if reliability is something that is important for you System and package really is the best approach What you see here is a comparison between a discrete implementation and the system and package implementation of the same system And on the right we compare some of the most common failure modes You can see that relatively system and package is as good ranging to significantly better on each one of these failure modes Than the equivalent system from discrete components So as you have seen all these are quantifiable benefits of system and package that we want as system designers Just to recap and reiterate these benefits Using system and package is going to get you to market faster It's going to give you more time to add more features and more value to your product It's going to allow you to design the smallest possible form factor for an MP1 based product It's going to significantly simplify your design It's going to create a more reliable system It's going to simplify your supply chain and give you lower total system cost throughout the life of the product In other words system and package brings a transformational change to electronic system design and product design So now you're thinking all right Niraj all that sounds fantastic But how do I get started and what support will I have? Well the good news is that Octavo systems we don't just provide a device we provide solutions We have the support and systems in place to help you through each stage of your design cycle That's where my applications team really comes into play The first thing we offer is freely available information meaning you don't have to sign any NDAs There's no firewalls in place to stop you from getting what you need We give you complete data sheets, detailed application notes, open source reference designs in both Altium and Eagle Our marketing team even provides some basic pricing guidance We make all of this information available to you so you can easily begin your own analysis to see if OSD32 MP1 really fits your application and fits your needs The best way to get started is to get one of our development boards The first one we have here is the OSD32 MP1 BRK We call this the flexible prototyping platform It is a small low-cost platform the size of a business card This board shows how easy it is to design with the OSD32 MP1 and what little hardware is needed to go from the SIP to a board booting Linux and working peripherals It is a four-layer board with all the components on a single side Yet it can provide access to almost all the pins of the MP1 Like all of our development boards, this is an open source design So all the schematics and layout files are available on the web It is available for purchase through our distributors with the low suggested resale price of $50 So a great way to get started with the OSD32 MP1 Come by the booth for a demo of the board We are also working on a more full-featured development platform It's called the RED platform for reference, evaluation and development It basically adds on all of those extra features and peripherals that you might want to help you prototype and try things out It has Wi-Fi, Bluetooth, Gigabit Ethernet, USB, USB-C, HDMI, DSI as well as a number of headers for you to add expansion cards Both Raspberry Pi and Microelectronica click as well as some motor control headers It is a four-layer design as well with the schematics and layout being available today on our website For you to check out and utilize as reference design The RED board itself will be available for purchase in the first quarter of 2021 Obviously, boards are great for prototyping and as reference designs But hardware itself isn't the only thing you need to get your design moving Octavo devices are fully compatible with all software tools both provided by ST as well as third parties built around the MP1 This includes the OpenST Linux distribution and the STM32 cube development environment provided by ST as well as open-source projects like Yachto which can be used to build your own custom Linux distributions So it is easy to get all the advantages of system and package without learning any new software tools if you are already familiar with the MP1 development environment In addition to support for existing software tools and environments, Octavo system offers a Debian Linux distribution and SDK Debian Linux with its many easily installable packages has been used on many platforms to help get prototypes up and running quickly without having to learn Yachto or other Linux built environments This can allow you to easily prototype with OST32 MP1 and test out the different features you need for your application Taking a deeper look at the Debian Linux distribution is built on the OpenST Linux distribution and is easy to cross compile on an Ubuntu host Support for segmented compilation means that you don't have to build the entire image when you need to update a small piece of your Linux distribution Additionally, the pre-built packages for Debian means that you probably won't need to compile anything at all in order to get your prototype up and running The Debian Linux distribution is compatible with existing software development environments from ST and all of our offerings are open source From the source code to build environments, making it easy to customize and modify Now I want to show just a quick example of how easy it is to use OpenST Linux distribution with the OST32 MP1 This workflow shows the steps we used to integrate the OST32 MP1 BRK into OpenST Linux distribution On our GitHub, we provide a set of patches for TFA, Uboot and Linux kernel Once you download these patches, you can apply them to each component after they are downloaded Once the patched components are built, then you just need to copy these binaries into the starter package That's all there is to it Now to drive that point home, I want to show you a video of a demo that was done by one of our partners The demo was originally done on the ST MP1 DK2 platform We then created a replica of that platform with our system and package on it We took the code, dropped it onto our device and it just ran What that shows is that you can begin development on the DK2 or any other ST tool Then get advantage and benefits of the system and package when you get into the actual design Because the software and tools are 100% compatible So here I am, walking through an MP1 demo showing off Alexa capabilities This is the MP1 demo from CNI Systems running on the OST32 MP1 version of the Discovery Kit 2 It shows voice assistants such as Google and Alexa running on a platform that can be integrated into smart home or control applications It uses the voice shield which features a microphone array to sample voice inputs And communicates to the Alexa or Google voice services through the on-board Wi-Fi Alexa, what's the weather? Currently in sugarland at 72 degrees Fahrenheit with clear skies and sun Today you can expect partly sunny weather with a high of 73 degrees and a low of 43 degrees It also has a touchscreen display on the DSI interface that is showcasing a feature-rich HMI application This demo demonstrates the capabilities of the OST32 MP1 to integrate existing frameworks to develop smart applications The key point here is that the demo was completely developed and designed on an STDK2 development board Using discrete components and was seamlessly able to migrate over to the system and package MP1 and run and perform the exact same way Then to continue to help you through your design, we do have a very active community on our forums You can go there and read everything that you want to see if some of your questions have been answered And the forum gets you in touch directly with our application engineering team We also have local technical resources and local sales resources all over the world to help support you and answer your questions We also offer a design review service because, you know, sometimes it's just nice to have a second set of eyes look over your design Making sure you're not really missing anything Stop by the booth and talk to us about our support and services. We can get you in touch with the local resource We also have an extensive network of partners that can provide you with hardware and software expertise They're all over the world and they all have experience with the MP1 system We are extremely excited to have these companies available to help our customers realize their goals And we continue to add to this list all the time Once you've completed your design, you want to be able to easily get parts to build it So we make that as easy as possible by working with some of the largest electronic distributors in the world To make sure all of our components are available to our customers and are easy to access Then finally, I wanted to give you an overview of the different variants of the MP1 SIP that we offer Our main product today is built on the MP157C device with the STPmake1A 512MB of DDR, oscillator and an EEPROM in a 18x18mm package As you see today, every product variant is with the 512MB of memory We will be releasing the 1GB option in early 2021 We offer both commercial and industrial temperature ranges and we can provide any other processor option in the MP1 family While there may be an MOQ associated with that, please reach out to us and let us know what you're looking for and we'll see how we can help you Thank you for your time The team at Octavo Systems and I are looking forward to chatting with you in our booth this week For more information, please visit us at octavosystems.com


Lanthanide-doped upconversion nanoparticles, UCNPs, are a promising class of materials for biotetection due to their unique properties such as non-autofluorescence, high chemical stability, deep penetration into tissues, long lifetimes, and reduced sample damage. Recent advances in this field include the development of UCNP-based probes for detecting inorganic ions, gases, reactive oxygen species, and thiols and hydrogen sulfide. These probes can be used for applications such as medical imaging, environmental monitoring, food safety testing, and biological sensors. This article was authored by Bingu and Qiqiu and Zhang.


Trade it and upgrade it now at Appalachian Wireless and receive up to $700 off when you trade your old, eligible device in and upgrade to a new iPhone 14 Pro Max or Samsung S23 Ultra on an unlimited Appalachian advantage plan because we are you. We are Appalachian Wireless. On Saturday, March 18th, UPIKE will be hosting the Bear The 99 5K race on campus. As the name implies, the 5K will incorporate the 99 steps the university is famously known for as well as various landmarks across the city. All participants will receive a Bear The 99 t-shirt and commemorative medal once the race is over. I'm very excited about our 4th annual Bear The 99 UPIKE Alumni Association race and this race, like we said, this is our 4th annual and when we started planning this race for UPIKE, it was basically we were thinking of a way to raise scholarship money and we knew four years ago that running is really popular. I hope it still is, but we wanted to do, we thought, well, why not do a 5K and basically the money that we raised on the first race and the money that we raise every time that we do the race is for the alumni scholarship. A unique race such as this can only be done in Pikeville as the race begins and ends with the 99 awards will be given to the fastest male and female runners. The race starts here and it's tailored to go around the town in memorable locations and the best part is you have to run up the 99 to finish the race and if you are from Pikeville or you went to UPIKE, the 99 is special. This college is the 99, so that's my favorite part. It's the hardest part, it's not fun, but it's great everyone standing up here cheering for you and it's just a great time. Reporting for Mountain Top News, I'm Nick Colum.


American Issues Take Two, I'm Jay Fidel. My co-host is Tim Appichella, our special guest today, Jeffrey Portnoy, and we're going to talk about what will happen after the midterm elections. What kind of a bis, if any, are we going to fall into? Can we have going forward? Can we have orderly transfers of power? Is it likely or unlikely? What kind of a Rupakon are we crossing next Tuesday? And I have a lot of points I like to make, but I don't want to make them until I hear from you guys. So, Tim, let's talk to you first. What kind of situation are we going to have after the election? Well, Jay, that's a, that's a really tough question because there's so many contingencies that we have to consider. First off, how long is it going to take for us to get the final election results? I don't think this, this doesn't happen on election night. And I think like the last 2020 election, we probably won't know final results for at least a day and a half somewhere around there. But you know, this election, we're, we're electing secretaries of state, we're electing governors and House representatives in the Senate. So there's a huge mix of positions that were up for, for renewal or replacement. And so that's such a tough question you're asking, but I would say by and large, by and large, it all depends on the margin of victory. And is it a mandate or is it just a squeaker? If it's a squeaker, it's business as usual, if it's a red wave mandate or a blue wave mandate, which I don't expect that to happen. You know, that would, that would test the waters of how the Biden administration is going to go. He's going to have to soft, you know, soft foot it if it's a red wave. And if the Senate is replaced by Republicans and the House replaced by Republicans, do we have a lame duck session for the next two years? Or to what degree does he capitulate in his agenda and, you know, try to get something done in the last year and a half of his presidency? Jeff, do you think that Biden's speech the other day is going to make a difference on what happens? Well, I'll tell you a little anecdote. Last weekend, I was in Charlotte, North Carolina, visiting a law school buddy of mine, very prominent lawyer in Charlotte, fairly liberal. And he took me to a local establishment for barbecue lunch. And he told me the people that own this place are very right wing. So we may get involved in a little discussion because I want them to vote, they vote for judges in North Carolina. He says, I want to give him a list of judges and tell them that they're just good people, whether they're Republican or Democrat. The interesting thing is the woman came over to the table and they had a little discussion on the judicial recommendations. And then started talking about politics in North Carolina Senate race in which the former Chief Justice is running as a Democrat for the Senate race. And this is the amazing thing. She's obviously very conservative and she volunteered. She said, you know, I voted for Trump the last two times, but I'm tired of him. And so are all my friends. And we are not going to follow him any further on this election steal. And we want him out. We want anybody else who has conservative views but not Trump. I found it fascinating because this is somebody who has been a dedicated Trump supporter up until quite recently. And she volunteered this in the conversation, not that she's she never vote for Biden, by the way, and she's not going to vote for this woman running for the Democratic, you know, running as a Democrat for Senate. But she said, not only would she never vote for Trump again, but wants him out. And this whole steal thing is distracting in her view from all the real problems, crime, inflation, etc. So having said that, you know, who knows, as Tim says, what what's going to happen? I mean, the polls are notoriously wrong. Everybody, as I said, a week ago when we had our show, I'm getting 50 emails a day, we're winning, we're losing, we need money, we need money to keep winning, we're, oh, my God, we're losing now, we need more money. Who has a clue? I think the four Senate races that are considered toss ups, if you believe the polls, and I don't, but the Democrats still have a small lead in three of them, which is all they need, because they'll probably lose one. But who knows? So your question is, will people believe the results? I think they will. In most of the races, I think some of the down races, they won't, like the people running for Secretary of State who are crazed, you know, people who believe the earth is flat. And, you know, I think they'll be challenged after challenge in places like Arizona. If the Democrat holds on, who knows what'll happen in Pennsylvania. And certainly, we know in Georgia, when he's through paying for abortions, he's going to challenge the results. Let me follow up with one thing, Jeff. You think that when we turn around and look back on the midterm elections, we will be able to say they were free and fair. Right now, there's a hundred lawsuits pending by the Republicans claiming the election was not free and fair. And it hasn't happened yet. So what what will this mean? You know, going forward, will people respect? I guess it's the same thing you just talked about. Will people respect the result of these elections? Or are we going to have 100 or two or 300 lawsuits around the country questioning it? I think 30% of the population will not respect the results. Wow. And that's we know that because 30% of the people don't respect the results of the last election. So what makes it any different? Of course, it's kind of ironic because the Republicans sweep, there won't be any challenges. So I guess that's the good news. Well, what's the sweep? Let me let me ask you, Tim. You know, we have a divided country now. And I suppose I could I could ask you whether there's any chance following the election that we will have a less divided country. It's more likely it seems that we'll have a greater divided country. But people say a lot of people say, hey, all we got to do is sit down and talk with the other side. If we could only talk with the other side and get out out of our respective bubbles, you know, we could we could come together, Trump or no Trump, especially if no Trump, like the woman. But query, is that possible in the current environment of the country, that we could sit and talk and talk nice and negotiate our, you know, differences of position? Or is that just not likely after this election? It's possible if you keep politics out of the equation. If you're going to bring a casserole to your neighbor and say, can we sit down and enjoy this bowl of casserole? Sure. That's, you know, that's the old Winston Welch's solution. And it's not a bad one. Get back to basics of being a good neighbor. Get back to the basics of being a good friend. But if you're going to bring politics into the mix, then don't expect much. It's going to be worse. It's going to question is going to be worse, because the Republicans will have the house. And they'll start impeachment proceedings and investigations into, you know, Biden's Hunter Biden and Biden himself, they're likely to initiate impeachment. No nominee, you know, they don't have any voice over nominees, but they'll retaliate in everything else. Hopefully, the Democrats will keep the Senate. So you'll have a divided government, which actually we weren't supposed to have it now, but we didn't have enough votes if you're a Democrat. It's going to be a lot worse. I mean, how could anybody think differently? Just look at this Pelosi say, yeah, and the Republican reaction to this, it's been unbelievable, blaming the Democrats for crime, rather than an attempt to kidnap and maybe assassinate the speaker of the house. I mean, this country is so bitterly divided, and there is no hope in sight. And I just finished a book by a guy who used to work for Fox, blaming the media 350 pages for dividing the nation along with course, the internet. And he's absolutely right. I agree. He says, you know, people watch CNN and MSNBC because they want to hear what they have to say and they believe it. People watch Fox because they know Fox is going to say what they want to hear. There's nobody in the middle. Nobody. And then you get to the internet. And we all know what's going on there. I mean, it's brutal. So no, Jay, I'm sorry. I think November 7th will bring a darkening of what's already storm clouds. To my tap into that, I want I want to agree wholeheartedly with that, that comment that the media has really polarized this nation. You know, I've said 100,000 times on various shows, we need to have a firewall between the reporting of news versus editorial and commentary. I'll say it again. So they have divided this country. And you're and Jeff's absolutely right that it's been nothing but to confirm they're already held beliefs. So it's just a reconformation of what they want to hear. But here's the deal. When does that stop?  But I guess the question is, to what point do guardrails go in place when mega GOP start putting out these, for lack of a better term fought was against Democrat politicians.   Where are the guard, where are the guardrails, Jeff, on any of that? There aren't any except defamation, and you can't yell fire in a crowded theater. But wait till she becomes speaker of the house, if you think things are bad now. Cheer up, think to be worse. I want to throw one point in here is that we, we a lot of us talk about, you know, the divided nation and all that and the bubbles and, and how we can't come together and we won't be able to negotiate or talk nice to each other and resolve differences and all that. You have to throw one thing in there is that I don't think the Democrats are lying. I think the Republicans, all the way back to Kellyanne Conway, they lie. And so how can it's like trying to negotiate a peace with with Vladimir Putin. You know, he's never going to do it. Jay, Jay, if you had this woman who runs this restaurant that I was just in Charlotte on the show, she would have said, you're lying. The Democrats lie.  I know they do. You say the Republicans lie and this woman running the restaurant in Charlotte says, the Democrats lie. This is like one of those logic logic experiments in the seventh grade. You know, one side says, I'm sorry. Okay, well, maybe maybe Tim didn't.  So who in fact is lying. But I think the three of us, hopefully the three of us can come to the conclusion. There's only one side lying here. And you can't negotiate a reasonable solution with somebody who's lying. Come in with if you come in with that opinion, then you're never going to get to where Tim is talking about mutual, you know, conversation. Well, you know, you can't come in with the fact that everyone I don't agree with is lying. So let's sit down and talk about why you're lying.  Practice of law for the last 40 or 50 years.  And you have to put a special watch on them because they're pathological as to the truth.  There are people like that. And it's very hard to cut a deal with somebody like that. That's the way of humanity. And I think what we've got here is an extension of that same concept that you find, you know, in the in the edge of the practice of law, you know. Anyway, Tim, sorry, go ahead. No, no problems. You know, just watch some of the men in the street interviews in Georgia when either GOP or mega GOP people were interviewed. And they say flat out, we know Herschel Walker's lying. We know he is, but we don't care. We want to flip the Senate. And so when you when you have acknowledgement that the truth doesn't matter, it just what matters is your your side of your team wins the election, and the truth be damned and and and the means to get to your your victory be damned because your team needs to win. I mean, we've come down to that point in our politics. And that's sad. I'm sorry, Tim. Well, that's just a sad statement on on the the condition of our our civic responsibilities and the course of elections. I happen to I guess Biden gave this pretty strident speech yesterday. Finally, you know, firing the cannons about democracy is at stake on November 7th. And then I was playing with my remote because my television wasn't working. And unfortunately, I got Fox and I got Hannity. And I only listened for three minutes as he just ripped Biden apart.  And I'm watching Obama talking to a crowd in Georgia. And you can see the difference between Biden and Obama. Forget Hannity.  That's okay. But you watch the difference. And and and you see why Obama, even though, you know, history may have some other things to say about his presidency, his ability to kind of communicate in a reasoned way. And I compared it to the part of Biden's speech where he was like, you know, he is crazy. I understand that he's finally decided to lay it down. But you talk about divisiveness, you watch Hannity, you watch Biden, and then you watch Obama, you wish the whole world could could talk like Obama to audiences, not that he's swaying any votes. But at least he does it in a way that it's hard to argue that it's divisive. Well, that's what we need. We need strong rational leadership, which we don't have. And I don't think we're likely to have it. And frankly, I don't think that Joe Biden gonna run again. So who knows what's gonna happen. But I want to talk about Obama. You know, when Obama first won, I was traveling, when I was traveling, I saw in the Herald Tribune, the Paris edition of the Herald Tribune, an article that he wrote, what he said was with technology, we don't need we don't need layered voting anymore. We don't need electoral voting. We don't even need representative. We can have everybody in the jurisdiction vote on every issue. And we can, you know, analyze that and make decisions that way. I thought that was way out. But last night, I saw some remarks by Yuval Noah Harari. Remember him? The he's a philosopher and historian in Israel, and he writes in Hebrew, and he's translated into English, and he's really, really good. And he was on a talk show and and he suggested that after the abyss here, we were going to see that the that the flawed Republican Party wasn't a party anymore. We were going to see that the Democrats were not an effective party either. And that government such as it will come to exist in this country will not involve party. Neither of these parties is helping us. And elections through the existing system will no longer be relevant. And maybe it's Obama's technique of having everybody vote, although that can be manipulated to. So I wonder what your thoughts are about that, because we are going to have dramatic profound changes after Tuesday. I'm sure the Republicans are going to do everything they can to screw things up and to take the power. But I also think it's going to mean changes in what the founders designed. Oh, one of the thing that Yuval Harari said, which I thought was very interesting, people talk about democracies all over the world. But the original democracy as it is seen these days is the American democracy. And American democracy is more than just representative government is more than just free and fair elections. American democracy is multiple branches of government who do balances checks and balances against each other. So if one makes a mistake, it can be corrected. And that's the true democracy, at least the one that we have shown has worked over a couple of hundred years. Maybe this guy ought to deal more with Israel. Talking about your own backyard.  I mean, break.  Look, I've said this on almost every show you've had me on. You keep talking about the Republican Party. It's the voters. You're focusing on the wrong thing. These people don't automatically become members of the House of Representatives or a senator or a governor. The people in their state vote for them. And they vote for them because they like what they say and do. So that's the problem. You talk about the Republican Party. They're just a symbol of the voters in that particular state. That's the scary thing. And that's where the country I think and this is profound from me. I think people now anybody with a brain knows that this country is about as bitterly divided as it's ever been. And it's divided on social and moral issues, which are not easy to fix. Well, I want to add to that the country has had problems for a long time, but it has got like this. It has been unleashed over the past five or six years by you know who that's exactly right. It has to be this way. They've had a messiah. They've had a messiah. And they still have the messiah. And what are you going to do? I don't know you maybe you do what you did to the original Messiah. Never mind. Never mind. Okay. Hey, I like to jump in on something that both you guys have been discussing. That is the following. About a few weeks ago that we had a there was a guest on the show and some really great ideas came up because you're right. The two party system I think is it's almost extinct. And it does go down to the voter. What if every ballot, be it a state election, a city election or a national election, had one box for every for every candidate that's up for election in a particular position? What if that box said none of the above? And those results were reported along with all the other results to show the governments or would be governments that the people can barely hold their nose for the candidates that are being elected at that time. And maybe it is the time for a coalition type government like they have in England and you know, Israel and all these places where it's just not one or the other where nothing's getting done. So I agree with Jeff wholeheartedly is that your government is only as good as your voters. And if the voters want some extreme measure, then what do you do about it? You better start changing how how people are elected. And the first thing obviously is the Electoral College. That's that's got to that's got to go. That has to be scrapped. You have to get rid of the extremes on both parties. Correct. And that's not likely to happen. So that's the left, the far left, the progressive quote so called Democrats, and on the right, the Maga Republicans, and hope that you can put together a government that can function with the remaining Republicans and the remaining Democrats. But to your point, Jeff, but you guys are telling me the good things that should happen. No, he's telling you that I'm not I don't think anything good.  Put yourself out there on Wednesday at sec next week and tell me what this is going to be like. I already did. If the Republicans take over the House, it's going to make the last two years look like a dream. That that's my prediction and they are going to take over the House. And I'm hoping the Democrats keep the Senate forget about it. If the Republicans get the result of the vote, I want to know how our country will be. It'll survive like it survived since 1776 or whenever it was. Okay, there's another pizza coming for you on that one. It'll survive. We'll all move to, you know, to Hawaii and all the Democrats will move to California and New York and Massachusetts and all the Republicans will move to Idaho.  I mean, we're talking about ignorance 10 feet tall here. And these are the voters you guys are talking about. But Tim, let me ask you, what is going to happen in the abyss? Well, again, Jeff is, you know, on point on all these, all these things. And that is, it is the social wedge issues. And until those things are resolved, we're going to have all the policies that, you know, bubble up from these things be in contention. So why don't we start addressing the social wedge issues? And what's the big one? I mean, how did Donald Trump really get his, his mega base so supportive and almost zombie like followers? And that is, it was the racial issue, the white fear issue, the white replacement issue. That's really what the glue that holds together support for Donald Trump and the mega GOP. And until you can address some of this white fear that has run rampant throughout the nation. You're not going to get anywhere. Okay, so what is that? We can talk about abortion and all those other issues. But you better hit the underbelly of what's really driving our politics. And that is fear of discrimination against white power. Okay, what does that look like? Give me a picture. What does that look like? What does it look like when you can you've recognized a number of problems? You've said, you know, we have to do these things we really can't do to fix them. So what does the country devolve into? Well, first off, when you when you address someone's grievance, and they like to point a finger at race, immigration, why don't you really look at the under what's really driving part of that? And that's economic disparity. Martin Luther King said it's not just a racial issue that's, you know, that faces this nation. It's the economic inequality. So if you have much of the rust belt in Midwest, where people are economically challenged, and it's so easy for them to point a finger at racial injustice and reverse discrimination, then go after making life, people's lives better, not talking about a handout, I'm talking about a hand up, where are all the promises about on the job training from corporations to give people a shot in a new career, that maybe they've been displaced from their old career? Where are all those programs that Joe Biden and every politician has discussed? People don't want to hand out they want to hand up. And until you started addressing the economic grievances of this country, you guaranteed you'll not get rid of the racial grievances. Okay, what happens if you don't? Well, it festers worse. What does it look like? It looks like it looks like right now, Jay, it looks like right now to the third power. You will have not just a quiet cold civil war, you'll actually start seeing some violence in the street. And it will relate it will look like something like 1969 in cities of Detroit, Los Angeles, Newark. But but but the issues that have divided the nation in the past have basically been political. Vietnam, for example, that's political. Yeah, there's a moral issue to it. It's political. It's do we get involved in other countries? Affairs. Civil rights, probably a mixture, but a lot of politics. Now you look at the issues that are dividing this nation.  They're they're less political than they are gut what I call gut issues. Sure. Look at this election. It's come down to inflation, crime, which is always my favorite, and abortion. Those are the three issues that are that are on the ballot on Tuesday, really, in most and maybe you know, in South Texas, it's immigration or something. But, you know, one and a half or two of those issues are moral, not political. You know what I mean?  We all know crime, what it really means in the hands of the Republicans. It's race, right? That's what crime means. What is anti Semitism? What is it? Is that is that race? Is that economics? What is that? Well, it's not economics, although they use economics, right? Who controls all the wealth? Yeah, it's trope. But Trump's trope. Let me you know, we haven't mentioned, I think maybe one of you guys mentioned it in passing. We haven't mentioned, you know, the effect of social media, as manipulated by a friend of Vladimir Vladimir Putin. Don't blame Putin. What? Don't you know, don't everybody talk about the rush. Absolutely. I absolutely blame him. It is what the Tim Snyder wrote a book called The Road to Unfreedom. And he went through the whole scenario in 2016, how Putin wanted to achieve control of Ukraine.  Manafort. Manafort was the primary one, but there were a number of them. And when you get into that, you find that they were actively involved in trying to change public opinion. You guys are talking about divisive issues, about things that excite the base about people, people not agreeing and being, you know, unhappy about this country and all that. Those factors, those divisions are being exacerbated every day. And there was an article in the New York Times magazine this week, a very lengthy, dispositive article on the same subject, repeating what Snyder had said. And I'm talking about, you know, Manafort and the oligarchs then and after then in 2018, 2020 and now these people are manipulating American public opinion, which is vulnerable because we have so many ignorant people in the base. So OK, that's my view. That's what's coming out. That seems clear, Jeff, that that Putin was and is trying to manipulate. And he's very good at it. We know that from what he's done in other countries. We've always had, we've always had provocateurs. These these guys were provoked. They were provoking members of Congress, you know, because but but you know, this gets into what Tim and I always debate. You're going to blame the speaker or the listener.  I mean, I don't think there's any question. You have to you have to blame the guy who's doing social media with a specific intention of rallying people. See, you see, what you and I disagree with is done. That's what you and I disagree. You and I disagree. OK, because I think the listener is equally you know, I disagree with both of you. I but just let me say this one thing. I really cannot eat all that pizza anyway.  I'm sorry, but, you know, and then, Jeff, I know you're going to take me to task here, but all freedom of speech requires are periodically guardrails. And what good is freedom of speech if you don't have a government and what you can practice it? And who's going to set up the guardrails? The government? I didn't say the government.  Well, you have you have, for example, the FCC. You have a government. You have a commission. They're not paid by the U.S. government. But look, I agree with Jeff. Absolutely. The government can be corrupted. You we've seen that. I understand corruption. I work for the government. I'm corrupt. If you put it on them to create the guardrails, we are in autocracy. We have just lost the First Amendment. So that's a real problem. It's not you can't lay this out of the government because the government is flawed. All right. Well, you know what? There are 330 million people in this country. I'm sure there's a few of them that could come up with a solution on how do you design guardrails, implement guardrails without having undue influence or conflict of interest? Well, the problem is they haven't come up with a solution on anything. So what do you say? Come up with one on that. Guess what? We agree. The other problem is who are they and how are they selected? You know, I suppose if the three of us were selected, we could do a job on it. But who's going to select us? I mean, look, look, Jay, you and I live in a vacuum living in Hawaii. Believe me, as I told you, I've now done the Ohio River trip and spent 10 days in the Midwest. I've now spent a weekend in North Carolina. Jay, you have no clue. And I don't mean that in a bad way of what's going on in America.  They are bright people who have made it, you know, have a successful restaurant business. And they are true believers in everything that we disagree with, except Trump, finally. But I'm sure that if we started, if I started talking to them about gay rights, I would have gotten an earful or immigration. These are not people with a five of you. Keep talking about a ignorant. They don't have a fifth grade education. They can hold a conversation. Believe me, and they are believers in all the things that we don't agree with. Really, I mean, that's what's that's what's happening. I don't have an answer. Well, no, I mean, I just I wonder about the other three hundred and thirty million people in the country who you haven't met in a restaurant. Well, we know 40 percent of them from the polls believe with this woman. Well, you know, at least 60 percent for hope. That's a great takeaway from the show. It's the lady in the restaurant. Yeah, you know, if you have her contacts, I'd like to get her on the show sometime. But I don't think she'd come on the show sometime. She might. She's not shy. I hope you wrote it down with her name and email address. But suffice to say, let's let's close in your comments on this. Nobody knows exactly what's going to happen on an after Tuesday, what house who controls what house. And what they do in January. But I would like your thoughts and you can make them as paranoid or not paranoid as you would. You can even be optimistic, if you like. What what are we looking at? What what what should we be prepared for? How serious or maybe not so serious is this? So, Jeff, you go first. I hope I'll use the word hope. We have a divided government. That's my hope. I'm not going to make a prediction because my prediction would not be very optimistic. I hope we have a divided government when all is said and done. I don't want it. But that would be the best that I think we're going to come out of on Tuesday. And what happens on the, you know, the below ballot races or whatever they call them, Tim. I don't know. The secretary of states, you know, the supervisor of elections, the mayors. The county and city councils. I have no idea. But if I had a prediction, the country will come out of this more divided than it went in. OK, big question, Jeff. Why do you sit? Why are you hoping to have a divided government? Why? What is in your mind as the pros for that? Well, it's not what I would want. It's what I'm hoping because I think the reality is it could be a lot worse. I think we all know that in off year elections, the party out of power out of the presidential power always does well. I think the economy is bad. I think crime is being used, you know, as it always is by the party that is out of power. I think social issues will hopefully keep the Democrats from losing control of the Senate. And I still think, you know, that that there's enough rational people in Georgia and Pennsylvania, in Arizona and some other states that when all is said and done, we'll have 51 Democratic senators, not 50. So that's my hope. I wrote a piece once and it ended with the line. We hope for so many things, but really all we have is hope. Well, I'm going to bring more hope to the table with my comment. Oh, go for it. Go for it, too. I hope there's more people like the one Jeff spoke to in Ohio, the lady who's fatigued, Trump fatigued. And, you know, we really realize the power of a leader and how they can influence people either for social good or to tear the country apart. That's what we've had. Donald Trump is a virus upon this country. And I'm hoping this virus starts to wane, and that's only going to happen if, you know, people kind of wake up to realizing what's at stake. Remember, GOP thinks that the the our democracies undermine because of Democrats and Democrats believe because of the mega GOP just spot on is that their belief system is 180 percent 180 degrees opposite from Democrats. So my hope is that this virus known as Donald Trump starts to wane and we get more reasonable politicians in and trying to guide and run this country. It's going to be a divided country. It's going to be a divided government. But that's the way the Constitution and the rules of the road were set up for division. But, you know, at the same time, cooperation through division. That's my hope. That's my prayer. Just remember, we still have yet to come up with a vaccine for the pandemic. True. But this pandemic actually is can be removed through through what is called indictments and prosecution. That's another show. That's another show. But remember, that's another pizza. He is on the slow march to fascism. And until we wake up and realize that, you know, we are going to be even further divided. Maybe if they taught more science in school, we wouldn't have some of these problems. Maybe so. So true. You said earlier that you thought we were going to wind up in violence. Can you say that? No, you didn't say it. Tim said it. We already have violence. Yeah. I think that all law enforcement agencies on election day need to be on alert. We may see certain polling places where ugly incidents occur. I don't think there is a going to be a widespread, you know, massive attack on the Capitol like January 6th. But yeah, law enforcement needs to be on guard. It should not be complacent. And we're going to see some news reports of, of kind of ugly incidents occur. Maybe in Arizona, maybe in Idaho, maybe in Los Angeles. Who knows. I know you want to end the show, but, you know, there's just so much more publicity about violence. This country has had violence for decades. Just look at the Klu Klux Klan and the lynching and burning.  And our anarchists, we have a few right here in Hawaii. But is it worse than it was? I'm not so sure. I'm not so sure it's more prominent. But is it worse? I don't know. I just, I'm not ready to concede that violence now is more likely or prominent. Then it's been over decades. But I could be wrong. Last word on that point, Tim. Last word is vote. And don't just vote. Vote blue. Okay. All you 330 million Americans watching this show. Yeah. Okay. You heard it. You heard it from these guys. Jeff Portnoy. Jeff Portnoy. Jeff Portnoy. Jeff Portnoy. Jeff Portnoy. You heard it. You heard it from these guys. Jeff Portnoy and Tim Apichella. Thank you so much for this very, very interesting conversation. Aloha. Thank you.