We demystify what goes on behind the therapy room door. Join us on this voyage of discovery and co-creative conversations. This is The Therapy Show, behind closed doors podcast with Bob Cook and Jackie Jones. Welcome back to episode 48 of The Therapy Show with myself Jackie Jones and the wonderful Bob Cook. And in this episode we're going to be looking at working with shame in the therapy relationship. Yes, a very important topic. Yes. One that's been written about a lot and shame I think is often the forgotten emotion. Yeah. It's not written about enough. It should be on the that topic should be in every psychotherapy training program for students because shame will always be there and often shame lurks in the shadow. Yes. Now the answer to shame is love and compassion. Yeah. It's an interesting one, shame and guilt and those sort of things that again you know we often talk about bringing the past into the present. So you know that's quite a big thing you know for somebody to walk in through the door and talk to a complete stranger to start off with. But then often I find with clients when they do open up and when we have had a breakthrough. There's an awful lot of guilt and shame about that. You know and sometimes clients even talking about their upbringing and their past and what happened to them. There's a lot of guilt about you know maybe betraying certain family members or their parents or you know the relationship whatever it is. Do you think shame goes hand in hand with therapy? Hand in hand with what? Do you think shame is part of being in a therapeutic process? No, not necessarily. I think the number one question concerning the treatment of shame is to consider who's shame it is. Interesting. That's the number one question to think about clinically. I mean it's important obviously to hear the story and help the person understand themselves. But if you start considering well who's shame is it? That's a very good place to start. Okay, say a little bit more. Are you saying who's shame is it as in it's kind of been inherited through the family? For most people they carry the burden of shame for a misconceived place. In other words I think it's their fault. Yeah. I think the shame is intrinsically theirs. Well actually the shame has come from other people who should be very very ashamed. Yeah, okay. But they take it on because they believe that whatever the trauma was or whatever the situation was they were the people to blame and they were the ones that it was their fault, you know, etc etc. Yeah. If you can start to think about it that way, you know we're into a whole process about eventually the person taking some ownership of what the shame's about and where the shame came from and hopefully giving it eventually back to the place where it should actually reside. It's usually it's not on them. Yeah. But the client takes it on because they believe they would fault or they're to blame or something bad. Yeah. Because they've been told it whether that's you know actual with words it's your fault that this happened or whether it was just insinuated in the past and in their upbringing, being the black sheep of the family and things like that. Yeah. Yeah. So it's very important to help the client work out and understand you know where the shame comes from and who's shame it is. Yeah. Because it's usually not the clients. Yeah. So what do we do with it? How do we help the client work through that? Well, yeah, shame. Goodness gracious me. You are quite right. It's usually comes when the client believes or has taken on the action or the trauma or whatever we're talking about here as their fault. Yeah. If we can actually help them understand that actually the shame comes from somewhere else and it needs to be given back to that person, then you can move to actionistic therapy where actually give the shame back to the person who passed the shame onto them. Yeah. Again, I would imagine it's a slow process. Oh, shame is because just by walking in for therapy, people often get very shame because they think there's something wrong with them to become in therapy in the first place. Yeah. So it's a very slow process on picking shame and how it's held in the body and what it's about. And that's why I said it's a forgotten emotion in many ways because people because well, another way of looking at this is hidden. It's often hidden in areas of the body or held in areas of the body or not talked about or lurking in dark shadows. So it's a therapy job really to help light go into the areas of darkness where we can get to where the shame is lurking. Yeah. And I've just said love and compassion is the antidote to shame. Yeah. From the therapist to start off with, but I would imagine it's the clients showing themselves love and compassion. Yeah, but you see, Jackie, they can only get there one way, in my opinion. And that's when they experience love being bestowed on them. Yeah. So if they experience the therapist being compassionate and loving them, then they are likely to be able to have that internal process themselves. Yeah. So that's why this is a relational site of therapy. Yes. Yeah. And it's difficult for clients that do have overwhelming shame. Like you said, it's the unforgotten emotion and it just reside in the dark recesses of a person to unlock that and to let that go is quite difficult for some people. When they've carried it for so long, it kind of defines who they are as a person sometimes. Yeah. Oh, definitely. Another aspect of this is what I would call normalization is because quite often people are carrying shame, often because they've been, as I said, they've been told it's their fault, et cetera, et cetera, but also they have outdated information or they really don't have a sense of normalization about what's normal, about often what they're talking about. And then they blame themselves. Yeah. What might be a normal developmental action. Yeah. I have worked with clients that have an awful lot of shame. Yeah. And so that in a dialogue that critical parents that is constantly, you know, they second guess every move that they make in all relationships and you know, the one time that I don't know, somebody doesn't answer the phone to them. It's overwhelming that, you know, the sense of shame and guilt that they've done something wrong. It's their fault. What did they do?  What did I do something wrong? Have I upset them? All those sorts of things. Yeah, that's correct. Yeah. So it's to unlock that. And I completely agree with what you're saying. You know, showing love and compassion and normalizing that, you know, there's something for me about does the person's ego come into it to a certain extent as in, you know, if they're questioning every interaction with a person that they are responsible for how that conversation goes or it's their responsibility that everything goes OK. Is that their ego that's coming out as well? I'm not sure the question, but I'm going to answer it, answer what I think you're getting at by saying this. If somebody comes in with a very shame based system and she's usually built around the messages that they're not OK. Yeah. Everything's their fault. These type of people have very diminished ego. In other words, they are internally telling themselves off. Yeah. They've had a life where people in reality probably punish them, burden them down. And so their ego becomes lower and lower and self-esteem is very low. So it's the opposite, I think of what you're saying. Their ego doesn't suddenly become very high because they had they feel worthless. They feel devalued. They feel a lack of self-esteem. They feel worthless, not the opposite. OK. But one of the things I say to all my clients really is that there's two people in a relationship and were responsible for 50% of that. And the other person is responsible for 50% of it. You know, the interactions go backwards and forwards. Oh, I don't agree with that. I'll tell you what I mean by that is it is developmentally, that's certainly not true because, you know, you've had children. You've got children. I don't know how many children you've got, but I know you've got one or two, haven't you? I've got three, yeah. So when you're the parent, you're anticipating the unmet needs of your child. Yeah. Our dynamics are particularly one way. So that so often the child has no choice. Now, in a healthy situation, hopefully your family, my family, there's an emphasis on self-definition, self-agency and understanding the developmental processes. But for a lot of family situations, especially when the mother or father might be shaming their child, the power dynamics are one up, one down. The child doesn't have the choice that you're talking about. No, but as an adult. Maybe as an adult, but they carry their youngest child with them. Yeah. Which again, is that bringing the past into the present and things. So they don't feel they have a choice often. Yeah. But for somebody to take on all the responsibility of every interaction that they have that they get. That's what shame people often do. Yes. Put on them. Yes. Yeah. So it is important, I agree with you, to get to what I said at the beginning. You're saying it perhaps a different way round to me, which is to find out where the shame came from in the beginning. Yes. Yeah. But again, it's kind of like another way of showing love and compassion and grounding them and getting them in the here and now and in the adult part is for them as an adult and age appropriate to what they are now, to understand that it's not their responsibility to make everybody okay and for everyone to be happy. Yeah. You know, those sort of things and that sometimes people have a different opinion to us and might take on bridge to what we're doing. I understand exactly what you're saying that because of how they were in their childhood and maybe, you know, exactly like you say, it was a one open ship. You know, there was power dynamic. Yeah. See, I know you're coming from. However, I think developmentally, in other words, I think what you're talking about is further forward. Yeah. If you're working developmentally over time, you're working with a younger child first, and then eventually work up to the position you're talking about. Yeah. And your position you're talking about I think is a great position to come to, but they're often not ready to get there. No, no. Yeah. It's a working process. I understand that. But, you know, to give them permission to sometimes get it wrong in the therapy room. Oh, yes. It's okay. None of us get it right 100% of the time. You know, if the client is constantly asking for permission or, you know, you to take the lead in every conversation because they don't want to get it wrong, you know, to give them permission to run the session sometimes even. No, permission is very important if you don't overwhelm them. Yeah. But, you know, I quite agree with you. You know, permissions at the right time clinically are vital in the treatment of somebody who comes from a shame-based system. Yeah. Because a shame-based somebody who's been really shamed has never had permissions to be themselves. Yeah. And again, like you say, it can be overwhelming sometimes to have that permission. Yeah. So there's a lot to be written on shame. In fact, on my website, I've got an article called Shame of Forgotten Emotion. But I think that shame is such an all-pervising emotion that comes with a lot of the clients that come through our room. You know, if you've got that sort of system, you're going to have low self-esteem. Yeah.  You'll be looking for situations where to be shamed or where you experience being shamed. You're going to feel worthless, not value yourself and all the things that go with that. And that leads to pretty poor mental health. Yeah. Yeah. And it affects relationships and everything. Yeah. And like you say, I like that, you know, the phrase that you said, it's a forgotten emotion. People need to think about it a lot. Yeah. And in a way, you are right, to a large degree, that a lot of the conditions our clients come in with, shame will probably be lurking somewhere there in the darkness. But I do know one thing, that if you shine light into the darkness, the shame can often shrivel up and go skulking away. Yeah. And that light you're talking about love and compassion. Yeah. I love that. Yeah. And, you know, I like to think that in the therapy room, it's one of the few places where the I'm okay, you're okay, is alive and well in that room. Yeah. Love has to be there. Yeah. Passion has to be there. Now, whether the client is ready to take that's another story already, but the intent needs to be there, if nothing else. Yeah. If we don't love our clients, I don't know where we go. And I also think we wouldn't be in this business. But we need to understand the clinical process about people who have never felt loved. Being able to experience love is another whole story. But I think the intent needs to be there. Yeah. Yeah. Because again, like you say, it can be overwhelming. Oh, of course. Yeah. Even having eye contact sometimes. Yeah. By definition, Jackie, by definition, doesn't mean that the intent can't be there though. No. But there needs to be a clinical understanding. Yeah. Yeah. I can remember what one of the looks after kids that we had that, you know, if ever, if ever I was, I don't know, making him feel a little bit uncomfortable, maybe with emotions, he would talk to me through a door or behind a wall. He couldn't even stand in front of me when he was talking. One of the, there was two times that we used to have really, you know, good conversations. One was when I was driving because I could only look forward and I couldn't actually look at him when he was talking. And the other was he used to help me cook Sunday dinner. So if he was stirring the gravy and doing something, he would be talking with me, but not actually face to face. It was one of the things I think that he always struggled with. It was a big change for him sometimes, I think. Yeah. Because I suspect the biggest message she got was around not existing. Yeah. Yeah. It literally was as if he needed to hide away or just disappear. Yeah. The only way you could survive. Yeah. Yeah. Needless to say, it didn't last that long. What been? Him staying behind the doors and things like that. He did a good job then by a soundsmith. Well, it took a while. It did take a while, but with lots of exactly like you say, love and compassion, you know, he did come out of his shell. Yeah. It can be very tested because, you know, people and particularly this sort of area we're talking about, the clients will try and make you shame them if that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. And it's familiar and they know how to be in that situation. Yeah. Yeah. So I do think there's been really good clinical understanding of how to work with shame and the treatment of shame. Yeah. Yeah. And like you said, there are some good things written. So on your website, what is your website? Well, just for the people that are listening, if they want to go and look it. Oh, right. I think it's on the Manchester Institute of Psychotherapy website, but I also have a personal website called bobcook.org. And of course, I have a YouTube with 300 odd videos. Yeah. So the article, I think, is on the Manchester Institute of Psychotherapy. It could be on the Bob Cook one. So I'm not sure. I wrote it a long time ago because I specialised a lot on the treatment of shame. Yeah. Lots being written a bit on it now with that goodness. But when I started off in 1985, it wasn't even in the psychotherapy training programme I embarked on. Now in 2002, it's a much more talked about documented subject. Yeah.  I mean, I was thinking when you said earlier on, but I think most conditions that people come with, they bring an element of shame with them. And often a really big, a big one, well, what it gets played out on is a shame of having to come to therapy in the first place. Yeah. In other words, being vulnerable, feeling something wrong with them, but they're crazy. That's why they're coming to therapy. It's like a double-edged sword. Yes. That has to be addressed over time. Yeah. And I think, you know, you touched on it there, that vulnerability is kind of connected with shame a lot of the time. Yeah. Because, you know, the way that a lot of people do a shame is to go underground, to hide, to attempt to not be there, not to be exposed. Yeah. All the things that we know about the consequences of shame. So we need to understand that whole perspective, I think. Yeah. Yeah.   When you look at shame, it's all encompassing with an awful lot of things. You know, if we as a human being survive something that other people don't, there's going to be a lot of guilt and shame around that. Oh, definitely. I mean, all the wars all over the globe. Yeah.  Then besides post-traumatic stress disorder, you're more, you're going to probably have, you're going to probably have survived for guilt as well.  Yeah. Well, it could go as far as to say that we live in a shaming society and maybe there's a lot in that. But, you know, I think that the consequences of shame, which is often linked to trauma and the way we're talking here can run very deep in many of the mental health conditions we're talking about. Yeah. That's why I think the topic we're talking about is so essential to think about and the clinicians, they've got many places to go to read about shame. And there's many books written on the treatment of shame now that weren't around 40 odd years ago when I started. Yeah.  I think we do live in a very shaming society now. Oh, absolutely. One down society. Yeah. Particularly with what's, you know, in the news a lot of the time now and everything. Yeah. That's why I love transactional analysis and the, you know, the basic level of, you know, protection, permission, importance. And I'm okay. You're okay.  I don't have all the answers. It's something that we work on together.  That's a wonderful thing to say.  I'm smiling at the thought I'm going to say because it's a wonderful thing to say. And at another level, clients come to therapy because they want Father Christmas. In other words, they want the client to help them. Yeah. I know what you're saying is true. And there's the desire and the hope that they'll, that therapists will understand and sort of have a magic one. Yeah. And I hate to disappoint my clients a lot of this. I know, I know, I come from a different place really. And this isn't right or wrong completely. And it's, you know, it's just different. I, if I have to say that, what you've just said, I will say it later. Yeah. In most cases, because I quite like the idea of what I call idealized transference where the person can actually have some hope and belief that, you know, I have a magic one. And the reason for that, and of course, many people would argue from where you come from is a different, is a more, I don't know, preferable clinical direction. However, I want to get to the younger self, the child eager state. And the best way to do that, I think, is to have the client on my side. Yeah, 100%. So it's, you know, it pops the same and different clinical thinking. Yes. Yeah. But around shame, you do need to get to the younger self. And you need to get to the whole process I've talked about, about who's shame is it? Because then at least they can then give it back. And realize it was never their shame in the first place. Yeah, which is a really powerful thing. Yeah. Things like that. They can only deal with the therapist's help because the therapist needs to be more powerful than the person who shamed him in the first place. Yeah. To provide the protection. Yeah. See, again, I'm thinking outside the box here, but when a client does hand back the shame, you know, I've experienced it personally with certain clients, that then there's another whole heap lord of shame that comes because they feel like they've wasted so much of their life carrying somebody else's shame. And then it's kind of like, oh, we're back to this layer of shame. Yeah. And it literally, it's like, right, feels gold, somehow you think you're getting somewhere. And then it comes back. Yeah. Game is very insidious. Yeah. I used to run polo. I used to train horses in the sort of realm of polo matches and things like that a long time ago. And I was taught how to and you know, how to actually do a main or how you do it. You cross over hairs and hairs and you make the knots and you do it very carefully. And it's a bit like shame. You have to follow and untangle the knot and it might go on forever. Yeah. It's a very, very shame. It's very, very insidious and it sticks to the soul. So we need to, you know, do some soul. We need to cleanse the soul most often. So with a shame base. And often when I used to work with this population, I used to use visualizations a lot where the client would visualize cleansing their soul out of the shame and putting it, putting it in a very deep well. So it would just go away forever and bring in the lightness and the love and the sunshine. I love that. I love visualization. I think it is really powerful. Yeah. Especially in the treatment of shame, I think. Yeah. Thank you, Bob. I enjoyed that as always. Thank you. Until next time. Yes. I look forward to whatever the next subject is. We've got a long list. I've got two A4 pieces of paper, Bob, with lots of titles on it. But as I know, I sent the titles to you. I won't go down a spiral for feeling ashamed that I've forgotten because I've given that process over to you. Because you're absolutely right. The one thing I shame is absolutely, is shame is like layers of an onion. And you need to go down the layers of the onion very, very, very, you know, like cleanse it in deeply and slowly and eventually find the horrible back kernel, the dark kernel that is at the bottom and cleanse that whole process. Yeah. Do you think, just to finish that, do you think people understand that it's shame that they're feeling a lot of the time? No. I know that's what I was thinking. They feel worthless. They feel lacking self-esteem. They feel not right. They feel not okay. They feel bizarre. Things are their fault. I can never get it right. Yeah. Those are the sort of thoughts and feelings. And until somebody may, a therapist may do this, may label that as a shame, a whole process, where did you get that all from? Yeah. They may never think of about it in that way. Yeah. So maybe that's one of the first things is an awareness of shame. And thank you. Yeah. Yeah. I keep going back to that because, because a lifetime of believing you are awful. You are not right.  It's your fault. It's a lifetime of purgatory. Yeah. I don't, I would need to release people. Help crimes release themselves from that whole person. Give it back to where it should be. Yeah. And that's not in their soul. No. And, you know, I do firmly believe that love and compassion is if we don't run out of love and compassion, we can give that to anybody and everybody, whether it's in the therapy room or outside of the therapy room. Couldn't agree more. Thank you so much, Bob. Until next time. Take care. Bye bye. Speak to you soon. Bye. You've been listening to The Therapy Show behind closed doors podcast. We hope you enjoyed the show. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review. We'll be back next week with another episode.


Hello All right, so let's let's get this thing started My name is Arturo Suarez. I I am part of the product strategy team at Canonical. I lead two products slash services there. I'm in charge of the training and I'm in charge of the fully managed cloud service called Bootstack for those who Might might have heard the term out there So between those two services are my two kids that keeps me busy 24-7 I'm gonna talk to you today about hard choices in life as as well as in cloud If you're here instead of Enjoying the Sun outside in beautiful Vancouver it means that you are Already making or you have already made One right choice, which is to join OpenStack to do OpenStack There's still one more choice to be made one decision to be taken, which is how you want to consume OpenStack and there are several drivers to that that According to the OpenStack Foundation survey If you look at this you're gonna find basically some words around efficiency Money even if it's misspelled there. We all understand what money is so pure cost This innovation this agility this flexibility It all can be split down into cost choice and time to market OpenStack brings as default brings as default Some of those Ubuntu OpenStack is the way in which you can you're gonna get all of them Let me dig into that pure OpenStack economics, right? We all understand This thing so both that price straight 15 dollars per server per day We can talk about what we mentioned in the in the first session of Mark Shadowworth About the price per VM afterwards, but basically a hundred nodes half a million dollars A list of thousand VMs, right? Let's go to the do-it-yourself way How much does an OpenStack engineer make? Well according to indeed.com in the US Average salary of an OpenStack engineer and in twenty eight thousand dollars You're gonna need four to six of these operators that depends on how often they get sick How often they want to you know take a day off, but basically four to six operators that concept to Half a million dollars the best scenario it would be something like half a million dollars, so it's very Comparable all right put stack makes sense for 80% of those clouds. So there are very few clouds That have actually more than 100 nodes Okay, just pure economics But you might say hey, well, I want to have my team I want to hire my team right and this is a picture from the previous OpenStack design summit in Paris we had this window on top so we could take this picture and guess what they are also hiring all of us are hiring down there Right, so you've been competing For talent with all the products all the vendors all the companies around OpenStack and that makes your life easier I mean you can think as well. Well, but I have a talented team already. Oh, sorry There's there's this thing about hiring the team and then training the team, right? You might know that we have these sessions like every six months with a lot of new features all rooms Are are full right? It is hard to keep them trained It is hard to have all the latest versions of OpenStack ready and all that innovation Ready and available to your customers, right? You might think well, I have a talented team This is LeBron James four times MVP of the NBA two times and NBA champion Juju deploy in OpenStack. He's happy. He made it struggled a little bit with the Neutron high availability But he made it right The city of Cleveland and the Cleveland Cavaliers might want him to still be playing he plays tonight And winning basketball games instead so you get my point, right? You might have a right a good team. You might not want to allocate it to something that might not be core to your business So we cover the cost We're gonna cover the choice the second of those elements, right? We have something called the OpenStack interoperability lab where we build 3000 clouds a month combination of permutation of all the vendors all the software all the different products or components of OpenStack to make sure that those Interoperate that those are fully integrated right that choice These are some of the partners we have there and that choice is then translated into options in the hypervisor We obviously 80 something percent our KVM that will change with a new introduced this week Lex D Lighter visor where you get 14 times the density and Hyper V were able to do to deliver Open second hyper V now in terms of storage you got Swift you got Seth you got a lot of other vendors coming along that have also joined our open second to the ability lab and in terms of networking This is a bigger a bigger The component that's getting most of the attention We can deliver clouds of course with the default open V switch, but also with juniper contrail No, ah from market elucent Meta switch, which is a very interesting as the end Mido Kura, of course Plum grids Cisco and I think last time I checked there were 14 of these as the end vendors in our OpenStack interoperability lab Important thing to keep you competitive. It's time to market Which we translate into time to production OpenStack, right? So let's go through the process you hire we've been doing that raw show recently some of you We met in different cities of the world from Seattle, Brazil, Mexico, Toronto Talk your Singapore London. I can't keep track of all of them, right constantly We've been asking people how long does it take to build an OpenStack team and Regular is something between four and eight months, right and then of course you train them and then you deploy and Then you got your open stack cloud in production, right with a managed service with bootstack We deploy in a couple of weeks you get an OpenStack in production and then you can hire the team and you can train The team right so we turn months into an OpenStack production environment into days Bootstack stands for build operate and optionally transfer your cloud again We're going to introduce one of the concept that people worry about and one of the drivers that Define how you choose to operate your cloud. So let me dig a little bit into that how we build clouds, right? We have our eyes in many clouds In fact, we are the ones that have eyes in most of the clouds, right? 55% of production environments are based on Ubuntu OpenStack. So we've learned we've done this for four years we have Distilled our experience into a reference architecture into a way of deploying OpenStack that accommodates not only the Workloads you're thinking of right now, but the work was you're not thinking of right now, right now It's a our balanced reference architecture a balanced way to deploy OpenStack We'll accommodate those workloads. We start to see and this is another again at a sign of maturity of OpenStack We start to see some clouds failing to be upgraded and failing to scale Right those initial clouds that were built two years ago when year ago are now starting to break because they cannot scale more and OpenStack should be scalable or hyperscalable We operate it completely Let all levels of support you're gonna get this very same level of support that all our main customers there Get right. So these are the guys who set our standards High standards, right? And this is interesting. This is very unique feature We transfer the cloud back to you. So one of the drivers if you remember was lock-in, right? We're not about lock-in if you want to transfer your cloud if you want to have your team and operate it We don't really want I mean we we can operate your cloud. We know how to do it But ideally when you have a team to operate your cloud We will step back and continue to deliver all the innovation of OpenStack and all the innovation of the vendors around OpenStack To make your cloud even more successful, right? So we hand over the key and you start driving we have again my other little product here the training So we will train your team. We will make sure that that transition is smooth and you Well start operating it from that point over whenever you're comfortable. We're happy to transfer the keys, right to illustrate this. Let me introduce one of our Customers so my media CTO might tell you and he's gonna tell you about what they do at my media and how they Make the most out of their Managed private cloud. Thank you Thank you very much, okay, maybe I'll just just this one little slide Okay, so okay, so Just to introduce what my media is so my name is Michael Yoon and I am the CTO of this company. It's called my media So at my media, we are a company. That's enabling Customers enabling end users to be able to rediscover their digital memories and we bring the perspective here at OpenStack of a consumer of a and we're providing a production environment for a consumer cloud and Utilizing the the OpenStack platform So we're a little bit different from many of the other consumers of OpenStack because we're not providing a set of cloud services to tenants We are really our own tenant. We're the own customer. We have a large application And we are you know building OpenStack so that we can use it internally for this application We also are one of these you know pretty exciting startups that are sort of on the cusp of breaking out into a very very large year We've got major major scale requirements So we have expected storage capacity by the end of or within the next 12 months of about a zettabyte of data So we're really looking for a large amount of capacity and expansion Driven by both organic growth, but then also some major partners some global partners through the through the course of the next year And these partners are our sort of device-based OEMs ODMs as well as telecom carers and retail partners So what this means is we have a need for obviously a large amount of infrastructure And we are very much interested in choosing the right set of partners So why do we choose canonical? So there are many different reasons, but three of them that I'll highlight here Certainly the first and foremost is the model of engagement. So No, no joke. I met Arturo yesterday for the first time in person and the words that he you know Sort of illustrated there are exactly one of the main reasons why we chose canonical So the model of engagement, which is the build operate and transfer model is exactly the model It is that we've been looking for So we want to focus first and foremost on our application and at the same time we have the needs to be able to build out this large set of infrastructure and The build operate and transfer model is exactly the kind of thing that fits our business needs at this particular time The second thing is the breadth of canonical's expertise, right? So not only are we utilizing Ubuntu, but also There are many synergies not only because you know canonical doesn't provide just boot stack But they've got a range of things a full set of services including partners You know relationship with vendors and a number of things along those lines and then finally the Embracement of the culture that canonical is embracing which is really about agility and customization Really fits what it is that we need right so because we are our own customer and because we are not providing sort of a set of things Services for tenants an example of the types of things that we are perhaps a little bit non-standard is that we're looking to be able to deploy Our open-stack environment on a set of flat VLANs right as opposed to the traditional sort of VX LANs things of this nature And that's not something that most reference architectures or most sort of you know You know, we know the best way of doing it and here's the way to do it But canonical really embraces this approach of understanding what our needs are why and then working with us closely So those kinds of things fit really really well with an agile sort of Philosophy and the startup needs and the needs of a startup company like ourselves So those are the three main reasons why we've chosen canonical as a partner and very happy to have done so We are also telling a bit more of our story So if you're at all interested in the story of my media and the other sort of you know things that we're working through We have a talk today at 240 in room 204 Thank you. All right. Thank you Michael So one of the of the second derivatives All right, so one of the of the of the immediate consequences of this ability to deliver fast to create Flexible clouds to create balance clouds has to do with all these choices all these vendors, right? So we are keen to Deploy several times for us It doesn't take too long to deploy several times pretty much the same cloud the same base Infrastructure the same hardware the same underlying infrastructure with different sdn vendors So you can have an sdn evaluation tool Pretty much in no time once we have deployed once with open vSwitch. We can redeploy that with open control with some other race It also applies to other Components of the stack we have a little bit of help here You probably have heard about juju our universal modeling tool That allows to deploy different services in different clouds in different substrate one of those substrates is of course open stack This is a juju charm a juju bundle of Open stack with open control, right? That's our the components of open control from juniper This is pretty much the same bundle, but we are leveraging here Calico from meta switch a very interesting of real for sdn Same one with noise from our catalusant Okay same one Same open stacks in bundle with open daylight. This is the way Cisco would like to Deploy their their class the way they actually deployed their clouds to illustrate that again, I'm Happy to invite home stage Garima can see from pure one another of our of our customer Thank you very much So my job appeal one is I'm a senior architect and principal responsibility at the moment is proof of concept and evaluation of cloud platforms now we are a Very large hosting company We have a very large network and it's very important to us when we're deploying open stack one of our serious concerns is we have something which integrates well with our network something which leverages all our network services The answer to which stn does that best is Something nobody can tell you it's very unique to each company is our feeling about it certainly and The end result of that is we need to try a lot of them and despite being a relatively large Organization for a hosting company certainly we have a lot of resources in engineering and architecture It's it's a lot of work to rebuild an environment repeatedly to test sdn's and It's not always an effective use of our engineering time Given that it's using the bootstack service has helped us speed up our Testing and evaluation process there quite substantially It's been a particularly Smooth process due to the level of flexibility and customizability about it As has been alluded to already the fact that there are multiple options for really every part of it Whether it's hypervised or a storage, but particularly in the network space that's Canonica willing to build really to our needs is hugely valuable compared to some other partners who Michael alluded to a very much in the model off. This is how we do it. If you don't like that, you need to go elsewhere So that's been Really quite a smooth process for us we have also been impressed by the work Canonica will put in around juju and Turning our sdn options into charms for us so that we can See what the deployment will be like in production. That's obviously it's a Big deal that we can see how smooth the production deployment off these systems would be And it gives us a lot of confidence when we're testing the systems Yeah, I think that's the overview of what we're doing with it and Why we see it as having a lot of value for us Okay, thanks. Thanks, Gary Again with options we also have options how to consume open stack This different different models, right? So we have data center hardware so bundles of the of different different components of the of the stack, right? So if you want to have a hosted cloud with Boots stack, there's a white paper Recently released. We are able to deploy that in a very reasonable time at soft layer Which basically it helps you get a Basically, no no cupex cloud up and running With a minimum small minimum commitment One of the companies in the hardware industry that actually understood this flexibility and a reference architecture Perfectly is quanta QCT. So they're able to provide a bundle boot stack on their quanta hardware They named it quick stack And you can purchase that the full Cloud in a box from them We have data foundry. They will give you the whole thing, right? Their hardware their colocation centers their data centers in Austin and Houston, Texas And we have our partners so agility networks in the room Our friends from alliance IT in the US that can help you Not only deliver this service, but also Services on top of that cloud some migration services, etc And of course our friends of Fairbanks in Europe in the Netherlands. They're bringing this Boot stack to the to their European customers We have some others in different parts of the world as well And of course we do you we're able to deploy things in what we call above the cloud, right? So if you are a hosting company, you can bundle a Tommy on top of that bootstack and you have a fully functional hosting cloud business Sweet We have charms for IBM software. We have charms for Microsoft software. We have charms for IMS and and if be Things we have charms for Different monitoring tools that would go above the cloud all of those can be bundled together in Services by our our partners So I believe I Am standing between you on lunch if you have any any questions at this time Or you want to go straight to To the nice meal, please go ahead. Happy to take them. All right. Thank you very much


Lebanon shared with Turkey and other countries like Jordan this problem of refugees. Now, on the political run, a solution is negotiated. And, meanwhile, the international community and ONG organizations are financing the refugees in the countries where they are. In Lebanon, for example, we have the third of the global population made from refugees. One and a half million to two millions over four million people. Do you think that the finances through humanitarian organization should continue to finance these refugees where they are in the countries where they are or finance their return to Syria? And I don't see really a strategy or a plan for that. What do you think? I think it's better to take all three questions together, yes, because of time. Asya, Halaoui. Thank you, Mr. Minister, for your listing of the earthquakes. You have suggested that the regional balance and the global balance should come together just to put everybody together, the stakeholders you mean, in order to find the appropriate answers. Who you think would be capable of just bringing together everybody since Mr. Trump has disqualified in America because it has taken sides against Iran since you are ruling out the United Nations. So what authority, who can do that? This is my first question. The second is related to Turkey's role. What role do you see for Turkey in this quagmire? Because it hasn't been that clear. It seems that Turkey has been playing on different registers and sometimes not very lisible to the rest of the community, whether it be in the west or in the rest of the Arab world. So could you please clarify that? Thank you. I'm glad that you have only two questions. Michel, as concise as possible. Mr. Prime Minister, we always appreciate your comprehensive and intellectual view of geopolitical situation. I have a very practical and maybe provocative question. Is your country, Turkey, ready to think about a regional conference, Vienna Congress format style, inspiration maybe, on a new long lasting regional order in the Middle East where the first stakeholder will be Turkey, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Israel, I hope. And P5 countries is the back seats. So I take now Mona Ebed from Egypt and also Aliyah Slan because she's German but from Turkish origin so then I stop because... So Mona. That gives you time to think about the answer. Thank you, Mr. Minister. For years, Turkey was looked upon as a modern in the region as an Islamist democratic country. Today, Turkey is accused of financing and giving asylum to radical extremists. Can you explain why? Because this is part of the Qatar crisis that you mentioned. Thank you. Thank you, Thierry, and great to see you again, Mr. Prime Minister. As Thierry said, I'm a German of Turkish descent and tomorrow morning we'll be discussing the future of Europe and it's no shock. I'm not revealing any shocking news when I say that relations between Turkey and Europe could be better. There are even talks and there's some pondering in Europe whether Turkey still wants to be part of the European Union. I take advantage of your presence here today to hear an unequivocal statement and perhaps pledge whether Turkey still wants to take the road and down the path down to EU membership. Thank you. Okay, I will try. Six questions. One was two. Six questions. Five minutes is not favour to the questions. Five and a half. Thank you very much, Thierry. Just for, since he had difficulty for my name, my last name, to clarify, Davut Olu. Davut means David. Olu means son in Turkish, so it is Davidson or bin Davut. It is easier to pronounce it. Anyway, about the refugees, I fully agree. There is no international strategy. Therefore, all the burden is on the shoulder, Riyadh's question, on the shoulder of the neighbouring countries, Turkey, Iraq, Lebanon, Jordan. There is an urgent need of an international conference about this strategy of refugees, Syrian refugees, but in general as well, refugees, because there are Libyans and others as well, how to deal with this question based on humanitarian values as well as financial aspects of this crisis. And the first priority should be going back home. But I am sure when Syrians see that Assad is still staying in Damascus, many Syrians will not go back. This is psychologically an influence on refugees everywhere in Turkey, I know, because they escaped from a regime. The regime is still there, so that refugee strategy going back should be together with a plan, peace plan on the ground, guaranteed by international powers. Then they can go. Otherwise, today, no refugee will go back when this situation is so fragile. About Madame Asya Alevi's question and one Michel, I will connect, I, Turkish role, yes, we have a good example of what we achieved. In 2003, in our first days of our government, before Iraqi war, we established a platform, Iraqi neighbourhood platform, where all the conflicting parties on Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Iran, Jordan, Egypt, all of them were around the table. And this mechanism continued until 2008 and P5, after some time, became observer to this group. And this was a very successful example in order to minimise tensions between neighbours on Iraq and also create a consensus among them about territorial integrity and stability of Iraq, which was in the interest of everybody. About Turkish foreign policy, what you mentioned that also there was another question about it. At the beginning, until Arab Spring, even until 2013, when Daesh came to the picture, when the terrorist, the oppressive regimes and terrorist organisations became two options for Arab people, not democratic choices, Turkish policy was proactive to establish a regional order. And I want to give an example about regional order. In 2010, in Arab League meeting, I was guest of honour and I made a proposal to Arab League leaders, ministers and later on to the summit, a new regional order like Vienna has been mentioned, Congress of Vienna or Helsinki process, based on four principles. High-level political dialogue, today we don't have unfortunately. Secondly, common security framework in the region. Third, economic interdependency and fourth, multicultural coexistence. I think regional orders can base on these four principles. Without high-level political dialogue, especially in the Middle East, you cannot solve anything, because at the end of the day, leaders decide. And without economic interdependency, you cannot have stable, sustainable order. Economic interdependency is the best way of keeping peace. And a common security approach against terrorists is or against any interstate tension is a must. And also multicultural coexistence, especially in the cities. If you ask me which is the most, I mean, dangerous situation is divided cities like Berlin doing Cold War.  So this could be the basis for a new regional order and in UN system, between UN Security Council and UN General Assembly, there should be intermediary mechanisms where regional powers can come in to be like Astana process now going on in Syria. This is also another way or method to solve the issues. About terrorism, Turkey has been the model and yes, without forgetting, this proactive policy has to be changed or forced to be changed. After 2013, when the Ash came to the picture as a threatening against Turkey and terrorist organizations, when democratic wave in Middle East has been changed after coup d'etat in Egypt and the old leaders start to come back and they had a confidence like in Yemen, Salih, and the Arab Spring became a tension between oppressive leaders and terrorist organizations. The third option, a democratic transformation, has not been supported by international groups. Turkey had to change to a self-defensive position rather than proactive position because we tried to keep our territory intact, therefore we had to make shield, efforts shield operation in Syria or in Iraq, extra territory operations to defend ourselves. I usually do not prefer this as a strategy, but the fragile situation in the region forced Turkey to be in that status quo especially last year coup d'etat attempt in Turkey and unfortunately the silence of international community regarding this coup d'etat made Turkish political elite even much more self-defensive as psychology. What we need today in Turkey as well an inclusive new long-term strategy of democratization and stability. We cannot continue with this self-defensive position, but at the same time everybody should understand the trauma Turkey is facing to keep democracy surviving against the threats in the country, terrorist organizations and this religious cult of Gulen or any other new attempt of coup d'etat and also against instabilities forces coming outside. Lastly about terrorism, there is Mona's question, I have to be very frank. We have to make a difference between terrorist and opposition and there I am with Qatar. Al-Jazeera you may criticize, but without freedom of speech, without freedom of intellectual analysis you cannot have democracy, sustainable stability in the region can come only through democracy and democracy means freedom of speech, freedom of press at the same time. We also face problems in Turkey, I know but the issue calling Al-Jazeera should be banned is not a way out. What is the solution? More dialogue. If you allow me I want to give one striking example. In 2006, Ghanoushi came to Turkey as an intellectual but as an opposition leader in exile, Rashid Ghanoushi from Tunisia. I knew him from academic life, we welcomed, we have spoken. Next day Tunisian ambassador came to see me and said a terrorist came to your country and you welcomed, he is a terrorist. I said, do you see Ghanoushi anywhere? He cannot kill even an insect. He said in one of his demonstrations in 1991 some people were injured. I said problem is you don't make any separation between opposition and terror. If you tell all opposition as terrorists then you will be, you cannot survive. We have to make a difference between these two. What happened? Now Ghanoushi is welcomed everywhere as the most moderate, most democratic wing of Islamist. And that diplomat has served in Tunisia even after Ghanoushi came back to Tunisia. What we need today is we have to be very hard against terrorists, Daesh, Boko Haram, Al-Qaeda, all type of terrorism. And as Turkey we are with. I was in Paris shoulder to shoulder with all European leaders when the incident after the terrorist attack in Paris in early 2015. But at the same time we should not be giving an impression that anybody who thinks different than the existing status quo is a terrorist. Then that definition of terrorist makes terrorists more happy. What we need today is inclusive approach to opposition in national, regional or global level, more dialogue, more freedom, but be hard as much as possible against terrorists who are taking gun in his hand, who use violence against people. This should be a difference in Turkey despite of all these difficulties will continue to be, we hope, a good model and example for everybody. Thank you very much. I hope I answered all the questions. Sorry, Ali Astan's question about Turkey and EU. Please Ali, don't think that this is my second issue. Turkey-European Union relation is not only important for Turkey and EU, but also is a peace model for inter-religious, inter-cultural coexistence and harmony. Therefore our government in 2002, the first strategy was making Turkey full member to EU. But in 2004 we got this decision. And unfortunately after that we had several difficulties. I don't want to blame this or that actor. But there is one thing clear, Turkey had to face many double standards, let me say, regarding Cyprus issue, regarding other issues. Despite of this Turkey has continued, the last attempt when I was re-elected as Prime Minister in 2015, 1st November, my first target was to rearrange Turkish-EU relations. And it was a success story on 18th of March, the deal between me and European leaders, Prime Minister Merkel, President Hollande and all the leaders. And we achieved, not only it was a strategic agreement, not only solving refugee issue, but putting Turkish-European Union trek on the right path, visa liberalisation, re-adjustment of custom union and all the other pending issues were in the package. And when I decided to resign from, to leave my position, the first thing I did was I called Mr. Yunker, our close friend. I said I am resigning. But you must continue this process. And in July, in June they were, we were expecting to get visa liberalisation. And I also told to new Prime Minister of Turkey that this should be the new, the most important priority for the new government. But unfortunately, after that there was a huge tension and Europeans not fulfilled any of these promises despite of the re-refugee issues has been solved. And this now what we have to do, all of us, instead of provocating emotional rhetoric between Turkey and EU, we have to be rational. Turkey needs EU. As a Turkish citizen we, I am telling, we need. And nobody can separate isolated Turkey from European continent. And European Union needs Turkey. The only thing is to sit around the table, put everything on the table in an honest manner, transparent manner and start a new process.


Okay, we're back covering AWS Storage Day 2022 with Ashish Pelikar, who's the general manager of AWS EBS Snapshot and Edge and Kami Tavares, who's the head of product at Amazon EBS. Thanks for coming back in theCUBE, guys. Great to see you again. Great to see you as well, Dave. Great to see you, Dave. Ashish, we've been hearing a lot today about companies with all kinds of applications to the cloud and AWS and using their data in new ways. Resiliency is always top of mind for companies when they think about just generally their workloads and specifically the clouds. How should they think about, customers think about data resiliency? Yeah, when we think about data resiliency, it's all about making sure that your application, the data that your application needs is available when it needs it. It's really the ability for your workload to mitigate disruptions or recover from them. And to build that resilient architecture, you really need to understand what kinds of disruptions your applications can experience, how broad the impact of those disruptions is and then how quickly you need to recover. And a lot of this is a function of what our application does, how critical it is. And the thing that we constantly tell customers is, this works differently in the cloud than it does in a traditional on-premises environment. What's different about the cloud versus on-prem? Can you explain how it's different? Yeah, let me start with the on-premises one. And in the on-premises one, building resilient architectures is really the customer's responsibility and it's very challenging. You have to start thinking about what your single points of failure are. To avoid those, you have to build in redundancy. You might build in replication as an example for storage. And doing this now means you have to have provision more hardware. And depending on what your availability requirements are, you may even have to start looking for multiple data sentence, some in the same region, some in different geographical locations. And you have to ensure that you are fully automated so that your recovery processes can take place. And as you can see, that's a lot of owners being placed on the customer. One other thing that we hear about is really elasticity and how elasticity plays into the resiliency for applications. As an example, if you experience a sudden spike in workloads in a on-premises environment, that can lead to resource saturation. And so really you have two choices. One is to sort of throttle the workload and experience resiliency, or your second option becomes buying additional hardware and securing more capacity and keeping it fallow in case of experiencing such a spike. And so your two propositions that are either experiencing resiliency challenges or paying really to have infrastructure that's lying around. And both of those are different really when you start thinking about the cloud. There's a third option. There's a third option too, which is lose data, which is not an option. Go ahead. This is not a, yeah, I pretty much as a storage person, that is not an option. The reason that we think is reasonable for customers to take. The big contrast in the cloud really comes with how we think about capacity. And fundamentally, the cloud gives you that access to capacity. So you're not managing that capacity. The infrastructure complexity and the costs associated with that are also just a function of how infrastructure is built really in the cloud. But all of that really starts with the bedrock of how we designed for avoiding single points of failure. The best way to explain this is really to start thinking about our availability zones. Typically, these availability zones consist of multiple data centers located in the same regional area to enable high throughput and low latency for applications. But the availability zones themselves are physically independent. They have independent connections to utility power, standalone backup power resources, independent mechanical services, and independent network connectivity. We take availability zone independence extremely seriously so that when customers are building the availability of their workload, they can architect using these multiple zones. And that is something that when I'm talking to customers or Kami's talking to customers, we highly encourage customers to keep in mind as they're building resiliency for their applications. Right, so you can have the, within an availability zone, you can have instantaneous, you know, when you're doing a write, you've got, you've captured that data and you can asynchronously move to outside of that in case there's, you know, the very low probability, but it does happen, you get some disasters, minimizing that RPO. So, and I don't have to worry about that as a customer and figuring out how to do three site data centers. That's right, like take that even further. Now imagine if you're expanding globally, all those things that we described about like creating new footprint and creating a new region and finding new data centers as a customer in an on-premises environment, you take that on yourself. Whereas with AWS, because of our global presence, you can expand to a region and bring those same operational characteristics to those environments. And so again, bringing resiliency as you're thinking about expanding your workload, that's another benefit that you get from using the availability zone region architecture that AWS has. And as Charles Phillips, former CEO of Infor said, friends don't let friends build data centers. I don't have to worry about building the data center. Let's bring Kami into the discussion here. Kami, think about elastic block storage. It gives your customers, you get persistent block storage for EC2 instances. So it's foundational for any mission critical or business critical application that you're building on AWS. How do you think about data resiliency in EBS specifically? I always ask the question, what happens if something goes wrong? So how should we think about data resiliency in EBS specifically? Yeah, you're right. Dave, block storage is a really foundational piece when we're talking to customers about building in the cloud or moving an application to the cloud and data resiliency is something that comes up all the time. And with EBS, you know, EBS is a very large distributed system with many components. And we put a lot of thought and effort to build resiliency into EBS. So we designed those components to operate and fail independently. So when customers create an EBS volume, for example, we'll automatically choose the best storage nodes to address the failure domain and the data protection strategy for each of our different volume types. And part of our resiliency strategy also includes separating what we call a volume lifecycle control plane, which are things like creating a volume or attaching a volume to an EC2 instance. So we separate that control plane from the storage data plane, which includes all the components that are responsible for serving IO to your instance and then persisting it to durable media. So what that means is once a volume is created and attached to the instance, the operations on that volume, they're independent from the control plane function. So even in the case of an infrastructure event, like a power issue, for example, you can recreate an EBS volume from a snapshot. And speaking of snapshots, that's the other core pillar of resiliency in EBS. Snapshots are point-in-time copies of EBS volumes that were stored in S3. And snapshots are actually a regional service. And that means internally, we use multiple of the availability zones that Ashish was talking about to replicate your data so that the snapshots can extend the failure of an availability zone. And so thanks to that availability zone independence and then this built-in component independence, customers can use that snapshot and recreate an EBS volume to another AZ or even in another region if they need to. Great. So, okay. So you touched on some of the things EBS does to build resiliency into the service. Now thinking about over your right shoulders, you know, joie de vivre. So what do organizations do to build more resilience into their applications on EBS so that they can enjoy life without anxiety? That is a great question. Also something that we love to talk to customers about. And the core thing to think about here is that we don't believe in a one-size-fits-all approach. And so what we do in EBS is we give customers different tools so that they can design a resiliency strategy that is custom tailored for their data. And so to do this resiliency assessment, you have to think about the context of the specific workload and ask questions like what other critical services depend on this data and what will break if this data is not available and how long can those systems withstand that, for example? And so the most important step, I'll mention it again, snapshots. That is a very important step in a recovery plan. Make sure you have a backup of your data. And so we actually recommend that customers take the snapshots at least daily. And we have features that make that easier for you. For example, Data Lifecycle Manager, which is a feature that is entirely free. It allows you to create backup policies and then you can automate the process of creating the snapshots. So it's very low effort. And then when you want to use that backup to recreate a volume, we have a feature called Fast Snapshot Restore that can expedite the creation of the volume. So if you have a more shorter recovery time objective, you can use that feature to expedite the recovery process. So that's backup. And then the other pillar we're talked to customers about is data replication. Just another very important step when you're thinking about your resiliency and your recovery plans. So with UBS, you can use replication tools that work at the level of the operating system. So that's something like DRVD, for example, or you can use AWS Elastic Disaster Recovery and that will replicate your data across availability zones or nearby regions too. So we talked about backup and replication. And then the last topic that we recommend customers think about is having a workload monitoring solution in place. And you can do that at UBS using CloudWatch Matrix. So you can monitor the health of your UBS volume using those metrics. We have a lot of tips in our documentation on how to measure that performance. And then you can use those performance metrics as triggers for automated recovery workflows that you can build using tools like auto-scaling groups, for example. Great, thank you for that advice. Just quick follow-up. So you mentioned your recommendation least daily. What kind of granularity, if I want to compress my RPO, can I go at a more granular level? Yes, you can go more granular and you can use, again, the data life cycle managers to define those policies. Great, thank you. Before we go, I want to just quickly cover what's new with EBS. Ashish, maybe you could talk about, I understand you've got something new today, you've got an announcement. Take us through that.  We talked about how snapshots help resilience and are a critical part of building resilient architectures. So customers like the simplicity of backing up their EC2 instances using multi-volume snapshots. And what they're looking for and what is the ability to back up only to exclude specific volumes from the backup, especially those that don't need backup. So think of applications that have cash data or applications that have temporary data that really doesn't need backup. So today we are adding a new parameter to the Create Snapshots API, which creates a crash consistent set of snapshots for volumes attached to an EC2 instance, where customers can now exclude specific volumes from an instance backup. So customers using data lifecycle manager that Cammy touched on can automate their backups. And again, they also get to exclude these specific volumes. So really the feature is not just about convenience, but it's also to help customers save on costs as many of these customers are managing tens of thousands of snapshots. And so we want to make sure they can take it at the granularity that they needed. So super happy to bring that into the hands of customers as well. That's a nice option. Okay, Ashish, Cammy, thank you so much for coming back in theCUBE, helping us learn about what's new and what's cool in EBS. Appreciate your time. Thank you for having us, Dave. Thank you for having us, Dave. You're very welcome now. If you want to learn more about EBS resilience, stay right here because coming up, we've got a session, which was a deep dive on protecting mission critical workloads with Amazon EBS. Stay right there. You're watching theCUBE's coverage of AWS Storage Day 2022.


Let's talk about it This is the mad at Beck podcast Today's episode is powered by Dot com What's up guys? Welcome to the mad Beck podcast today. I want to talk about something that is important. Um, I Made a post on Instagram last week and the post got quite a bit of attention Some of it positive some of it negative so I want to get into the guts of what that post was really about and The message that I'm trying to deliver because sometimes When you post something and you post words and then it kind of takes on a life of its own when you make a post and it Starts to get a lot of comments because people read into things wrong and what I want people to understand this post I made it seem like it was a commission percentage post It was uh, you know 40% versus 60% that kind of thing in the salon and what I want people to understand is that is not the case whatsoever what I was saying is that Whether you make 40% or 60% if you're not doing all the other things that make you a successful hairdresser Then it doesn't matter the commission percentage. You're still not gonna be financially successful so and even I mean obviously people look at success differently and so when I say success I'm saying financial success because we're working in a job and typically our job the way that we characterize success would be financially right or that we're happy doing it so Hopefully you're all happy doing hair and to be able to be financially secured doing hair is the goal. I would think so so with that being said I want to get into the guts of the post what I was really saying and so that You know we can start the conversation off that way and everybody can really understand it So the other thing that was really interesting to me about this post was that I made the post on Instagram first and then I automatically shared it to Facebook as well and The reaction on both platforms was unbelievable. So Instagram, which I would say is a majority younger crowd Everybody was pretty positive about the post understood it read it really got it, right? Very few people on Instagram kind of got extremely upset about Commission percentages and then on Facebook it automatically first comment was right away just really You know took offense to the post so and then it starts a thread of a lot of people and Facebook just seemed to be a little bit more of a Negative place. So I found that interesting as well. So think about that and think about when you make posts on different platforms Who you're trying to reach right and I've talked about this before but I didn't really think about it in this post because Honestly, I didn't mean for the post to have to do with commission percentages. That wasn't the goal so when you think about When you're posting on Instagram or you're posting on Facebook and making different content you've got to realize that you're Reaching different audiences. That was my first lesson from this whole thing now to talk about the post what I said was Whether you make so I said I'd rather make 40 percent of a hundred and fifty thousand dollars than 60 percent of fifty thousand dollars So that was kind of what the image said So if you didn't actually read the post you just look at that and you say well I'd rather make 60 percent of a hundred and fifty thousand So, you know that I got a lot of that kind of comment and what I was saying is We need to figure out how to up the game make a hundred and fifty thousand dollars bring that in and then you can worry about Commission percentage you can negotiate you can do whatever you want with your salon after that I don't really care about the commission percentage.  You're not thinking about the commission percentage The problem is and it happened with me when I first started doing hair I was so focused on my commission percentage Because I wasn't bringing in the volume of hair or the volume of money That I thought I could get a higher commission So then I would just instantly make more money and that's that's not the mindset that we want to be in as A hairdresser in the industry. So the first thing is build a better relationship with your customer That's the first thing and a lot of people don't think about these things But what I said in the post was build a better relationship with your guests for instance Listen to the things they're saying about their hair and then offer some exciting things for their next visit. So as hairdressers we We get our guests in the chair and then we're very quick to Just do what they asked right they want a single color. They want a trim Whatever whatever it is that they're booked for that day But we're not thinking about the next visit and getting them excited for next time So in order to kind of up your game and get them pumped to come back in Which when they're excited to come back in that ups your frequency of visit and in turn when you get a higher frequency of visit You start making more money right it ups your rebooking percentage because when you make your guests excited about the next visit They're excited to come back in then you're going to make more money Because you're guaranteeing that guests is coming back in within a certain amount of time right so you can all let your guests walk out the door and not think about Not talk about next time not get them excited about next time and you know, they're probably gonna come back Let's just assume they are but you don't know when right and frequency of visit is so important because the Difference between you letting your guests come back in let's say You just say you just send them out the door. You don't rebook them You don't get them excited about next time and they don't come in for three months So now you've got a guest instead of them coming in eight times a year. They're coming in four times a year So you're cutting your pay in half So you should be more upset and this is what I was saying in the post You should be more upset with yourself on that aspect and that is easier to change Then just digging and trying to get a higher percentage on commission like think about it that way now That's the first thing your guest relationship get them to come back in sooner get them excited about their hair talk to them about Things listen to what they're saying so that you know Uh, the things that they're looking for with their hair and then you can promote and and get them back in The next one is average ticket so The average ticket number you should look for in your salon Is basically an average of the services that you do So if you take the total number of service dollars that you bring in for the day And you divide it by the amount of guests that you have for the day that gives you your average ticket Now if you don't know that number Then it's something that you should definitely look up Um and definitely even if you have to do it by hand Because if you don't know what that number is then you don't know how to grow from it Right so look at that number then Think about Getting your guests excited So what I said in the post is grow your average ticket by staying educated Think about how often or how when you when a new product comes out in the salon, right? We get a new product in the salon and it sells Because it's new it's cool Everybody is educated on it. They can't wait to use it and try it. So all the clients buy it so With services we get bored in the salon because we're never trying anything new We're not really even if we see something on the internet We go back to our guests and we do the same old thing.  So now she's gonna want to come back in sooner So it's a win-win for everybody and the last thing was change your work experience So I said take pride in the way you prepare for each guest When you're not with the guest get a mannequin try something new keep busy There's nothing less motivating to yourself and the people around you then complacency focus on these three things and Yeah, focus on these three things Die of me in three months and I want to hear the changes in your mindset and your paycheck. So that was the post Um So I think when you guys think about that I wasn't talking about commission percentage I know it's a big issue in the industry I personally as a salon owner don't believe that anything over 50 percent the problem with that is there's not really any money left And if you want to have a successful business Then you have to have money left like salon should make money Salon owners should make money. They're taking the risk and keeping the door open So if you're a person that chooses to work at a salon Then you're choosing to be a part of that, right? And you have to focus on the things that are really affecting what your paycheck is and those are The three things we talked about building better relationships with your guests your average ticket And also the experience that you're creating at work. So That was my thought. I love to hear your thought if you're following me on anchor Um, so the anchor app Just download it on itunes anything. Um, but if you're listening on that, I'd love to hear a voice message from you about this podcast if You're on any other platform itunes spotify youtube whatever it is you can leave a comment or Go to instagram and send me a dm at free salon education and let me know your thoughts and hopefully that you maybe Listen to this and understand it, right and and whatever your thoughts are on it I love to continue that conversation because if we don't have the conversation We can't grow from it and I would rather get into the battle right now and figure this thing out so that we can all You know start working together on growing the industry instead of just fighting for Like a percentage, right? Because if you're make it if I can take you from bringing in let's say 70 000 in services And make you now bringing in 140 000 in services Then that commission percentage five percent here five percent there doesn't really matter in the big picture right so That being said I'd love to hear your comments post them and thank you so much for watching this podcast listening to what I'm saying and I'd love to hear what you have to say about it as well So thank you guys so much for listening And I will talk to you guys on the next podcast and remember guys this podcast is brought to you by manorvabeauty.com They're my good friends. They have the best salon furniture in the business for the best price They have a giant warehouse That ships your stuff super fast a lot of times you have to wait weeks and weeks to get your stuff because it's shipped from another country So check out manorvabeauty.com Slash fse And uh, you got a special deal on there if you go to that website. So manorvabeauty.com Slash fse