Ooh, I feel attacked. Boom, shot to the heart. Listen, it's the message right here.  Cause I just want to build with you. Black girl tell me how you really feel. I want to keep it real with you. I want to live better, eat better. I want to love better, sleep better. Yeah, I want to feel so aligned. I guess the thing, like you were saying with these conversations with men expressing their frustration happened in barber shops that happened on the basketball court. Do you think that those men actually set their women down and tried to explain to them what the issues were? Cause I question if we know how to have that raw transparent communication with one another without it being shouting at one another. So even if we talk about the manosphere, like you said, we could say Oprah, Ricky Lake, the people that you mentioned, they pander to women. I think a lot of these platforms are pandering to the frustration of men. And it's fine that you're frustrated. It's not what you say, it's how you say it. And so I just feel like a lot of it is from more of, it's like an attacking point of view versus I want you to hear me, let's figure out a resolution. We're just stuck in the phase of a shouting back and forth at one another. I agree, I agree. I think I agree and disagree. I think it's not what you say, it's how you say it. But I think a step further is also like who is saying it and when they're saying it. Like some people like, for instance, people had an issue with Kevin Samuels, his tone, his tone, his tone. Somebody like Kendra G is saying the exact same things. And she's not even being listened to. People back in the day, or back to the 90s, they had a problem with Scheherazade Ali. And one of the people who had a problem with Scheherazade Ali was Eyal Avansant. Fast forward 27 years later, she's saying the exact same thing, black women are out of order, people still aren't listening. So it's, at first I thought it was the tone, second I thought it was the messenger, it's actually the message. And unfortunately, I think why the message is met with so much resistance is because in as much as men are taught, women are sugaring spice and everything nice, women are taught that too. And some of what that instills in you was a sense of benevolence.  And nobody is gonna tell me otherwise. And what's funny is, one of the questions I would ask early on during the series, I would ask women like, why don't other women call women out on bullshit? And one of the responses I got, for instance, was we don't wanna lose our friendships.  With bass in our voice and not being as societally articulate and cunning as women are socialized to be.  She's gonna have a more complex understanding of facial expressions and conversational nuance earlier than her male counterpart. So we're not socialized to communicate the way that I've learned how to. So when we communicate the best way we know how, even if we have learned how to communicate better, it's met with who are you or how dare you say, I got stuff in my teeth. My teeth are pearly white because I think they are. So we have to address both sides. Yes, men can become better communicators. But the reality for a lot of men who've tried is that a lot of women are not receptive to anything outside of race and adoration. I think you have to accept that you can't save everybody though. And that's the thing. And maybe I'm just a glass half full type of person, but I face a lot of opposition with the things that I talk about too. And a lot of opposition does come from women. And so I just kind of have to accept that those are not my people. If you don't receive my message, that's fine. But I know there's a whole entire other group of people who do feel what I say around the same wavelength and they're receptive to it.   I want my friends to do the same for me. But I don't know if men, kind of like what you said earlier, you don't feel like women are trying to better themselves for men. But then on your, what is it that I am the table 2.0? That conversation stood out to me because she mentioned that this whole soft girl era is a thing. And I will say that, I think that whole aesthetic tick-tock thing is BS. Honestly, I don't like it. It's very sugarcoated, packaged it up and sell it to people. But there are women who are out there who are really trying to better themselves. And I think one of the, some of the pushback we get is that it's not believable. You guys are trying to do this, all of a sudden it's not real. So it kind of sends a message to women like, okay, well I am trying, but you guys don't believe that I'm trying and you don't think it's coming from a genuine place. So why am I trying? I think for the women who are trying, I would say that the number one thing you should do is get in the habit of actually listening to men. So like you said earlier, watch a whole Kevin Samuel stream. Watch some of the men that, in real life you might not even associate with, but they have galvanized such a large following of men that something they're saying is resonating. Because I think what tends to happen is women tend to gravitate towards the dare Jacksons and the, what's the other dude's name? He's got like hazel eyes. Oh, Tony Gaskins? Tony Gaskins and things like that.  Tony Gaskins is a reformed gigolo. So he has a bit more truth, but the reason a lot of men don't resonate with him is because he has already done all the shit that the average guy just wants to get a taste of.  Yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? So it's like, if women got in the habit of actually listening to men and actually listening to men's grievances and starting from a place of I see value in men. Because I think the prevailing narrative is that men have no value outside of what they can do for you. So a real soft girl life, soft girl era, I think is rooted in the idea that men are inherently valuable. And if I want one in my life, I have to make myself palatable and attractive to the caliber of man that I see value in. But I think to your point, a lot of what we're seeing in the soft girl stuff that, which is why we don't believe it is like, soft girl life is by getting your nails done and getting pedicures and manicures and looking the part. And what men have been saying is that that's not your shortcoming. When if we were to line up women around the world as far as beauty, y'all are at the front of that line. But men are not running to America to find wives. They're running to Asia. Why is that? Asian women ain't built like y'all. Facially Asian women ain't what y'all, you know. So what is it that men actually want for a lifetime instead of for a night? And I think part of the reason again, why the soft life thing isn't resonating with men or men don't believe it is like, I'm telling you that your legs are fully developed. You need to work your upper body. The next few times I see you in the gym, you're still doing squats. I hear you. That's what I mean when I say it's very glamorized because I think the part that's being missed and this can be said about the whole healing journey things, I feel like that's the thing that is very saturated now as well. And it's not pretty and it's not easy at all. But I think that women are seeing the aesthetic piece of it, so what might come in the end of that journey but people aren't really doing the inner work. And it's hard therapy, reflecting on a lot of things, realizing that you're not perfect and you probably messed up in the past, we shy away from those things. So that part isn't happening and I agree with you. But I do wanna challenge something that you can. Challenge something I say, go ahead. Because you said that women only see value women based on what they can do for them. My argument is that men are actually operating in the same way nowadays. And I realize this when I talk to men and you ask them what they're looking for in a woman and a lot of it is what she can do for me, right? And I don't think that the soft skills, the person who she is internally is valued as much. Cause I think for me, when I think of a partner, the thing that I value the most about them is who they are as a person. I want you to be my best friend, I want us to be connected in that way. And everything else outside of that is an added bonus because you might make a lot of money today but something might happen tomorrow where you don't make a lot of money. And so I need you to have that substance so that I do still see value in you. I don't think that men are focusing on that substance. And so you can say, well, I'm a good woman and I'm caring and I'm gonna be supportive and all these things. And I don't think that that is enough for a lot of men that I talk to. Let's talk about it. Well, I think first and foremost, we have to admit that at the top of men's party list and selection, sexual selection is gonna be aesthetic. We talk about facial symmetry, meaning that you're gonna have healthy offspring. We talk about waist-to-hip ratio, meaning that you're going to more easily carry a baby to term and deliver. But it's been in breast-roundness and all that good stuff. Like it's ingrained in our DNA to want an aesthetically pleasing woman. But the other part too is the beauty of our woman is also a status symbol. You know that reggae song, Girl You Are Our King Troll? Yes. You know what I mean? It's a status symbol to tell other men to tell society at large that, yeah, I'm that dude because look, not just look at how she looked but look how well I take care of her. In some circles in corporate America, if you're not married, for instance, you're not getting in. Right. You know what I mean? Because how can I trust you if you haven't paired with somebody and I can see by how clear their eyes are, how clear their skin is, that you are about what you preach? Right, so the beauty thing is first. The beauty thing is first. As far as you're saying it's about what the woman does for the man, I agree. I agree. But I also think love is supposed to be quid pro quo. It's supposed to be I scratch your back, you scratch mine. Yes. I don't believe in, what is it called? Unconditional love. I don't think humans can fathom not putting conditions on anything. I don't think we're capable of it but I'm open to be challenged there. But so with that being said, all I'm advocating for is your value should be clear to me and my value should be clear to you. Because you know, I feel good when my woman looks good. And just like I said before, it's also part of my status level.  So it's a cyclical thing. Am I gonna say most men are able to articulate that or most men are concerned about that? No, I can't say that. But I think at the core of it, you being good makes me good. You looking good makes me look good. And I think there should be some reciprocity there. Yes, I do agree with that actually. So I guess the point that I'm making is when we have the quote that you said, the Chris Rock quote that everyone likes to say, you know, the only people who are loved unconditionally are children and animals, right? I agree with you that yes, there should be conditions and I should be getting something out of the relationship reciprocity. So why, if we know that this is true, why are we making statements like women only see value in men who are giving something to them? Isn't that the way that it should be? Why is that demonized? Like the whole gold digger thing? Not even just a gold. I mean, I guess you get to maybe selfish. I mean, that's the big thing. Like you only want me if I'm providing something to you. But why is that bad? It's not, for me, it's not. Like when I hear people talk about certain like gold digger stuff, yeah, I'm not with that because I feel like if you're not adding value to a woman's life, to play God's advocate a little bit, to try to articulate what some of those people are saying. I think just like women were raised on fairy tales, men were raised on fairy tales too. And a lot of dudes, I think part of the reason why we struggle is we were led to believe sometimes by our mother, sometimes by media that if we love a woman enough, if we buy her enough flowers and we go on enough long walks on the beach and we have enough conversations, my ability to take care of her won't matter. In the real world, that's not true. In my culture, for instance, like I don't just have to prove to you that I'm a good man, I also have to prove to your father that I'm a good man. Like we still do doubt in Ebo culture, we still do dowries. Like I have to come with my people to your people and they're going literally based on your beauty, your level of education, your contribution to the household, they will literally come up with a number. And if I can't pay that number, I can't marry you. And on the face, it's like we're selling our daughter, but the idea behind it is it's a test to prove your capacity to take care of her. And also it's a consolation for the whole that's now gonna be missing in our family.  So, yeah, I think that's why a lot of do struggle with that because they were told that life was a fairytale.  Alian DeButton.  And one of the main things he talks about is how our idea of romance was created by unemployed European artists.  They didn't have jobs. You can't do that stuff if you're living a real life, right? But a lot of our ideals are created by those, you know, the fancies and the fantasies of people who were bumps for the most part. And I think it affects the reason why men, for instance, have a hard time wrapping their minds around like, you have to be able to take care of her, bro. Outside of just making her feel good. You have to be able to show that you could potentially take care of your offspring. So me personally, and this might be where I deviate from the hemisphere, no, I don't think there's anything wrong in a woman discriminating against a man because he is not able to provide for her. Where it does become wrong is when you create arbitrary, very superficial metrics like six figures. You don't need six figures to take care of a family. You know what I'm saying? You don't need to be driving the Mercedes. You know what I'm saying? You don't need to be living in a high-rise. And that's where I have a problem with it.  He needs to have a place, a car, that's reasonable. That's reasonable. It is reasonable. But I think the problem is kind of like what you were saying about how romanticized we see things when dating, we don't have examples to see what it looks like in real time, right? So if I didn't see my mother and father interacting to see the good, the bad, the ugly in a relationship, I now have to look to TV, what I see in books, what I see in Disney to formulate what I think a man or a woman should look like. And that's what I think we're both struggling with, 100%. But then it gets to a point where we have to figure out what the solution is and kind of tracing back to the patients, the grace that you give to people. So if I'm working on myself and you're actively working on yourself, is that not enough? Why are we expecting one another to come together, 100% perfect, and then we will see that black men and black women have value? Man, that's, I don't know if we have the luxury to wait on when we're healed. And also, I don't think being healed is a place, I think it's a journey. Like I don't think you're ever 100%. Absolutely. You know what I mean, especially when you consider the generational trauma that we've endured and the, I don't know if you're familiar with epigenetics, you know what I'm saying? Like some of that trauma isn't even stuff you experienced. Some of it is secondhand, some of it is in your DNA. Yeah, so I don't think it goes away. I think the main thing, the main indicator, if I had to like speculate is just somebody willing to listen. That's it. Somebody willing, somebody who's open to hearing black women's stories.  I think one of the things that I would like to see is more black women willing to hear our stories. For instance, during Cori and I's interview after I posted it, one of the comments from a woman was, this was bad, but you did talk about how you didn't pay her enough attention.  Like the reflex was to, as opposed to just listen. If it was flipped, if Cori was Coriana and a dude commented to that, like, yeah, you didn't give him enough sex and this, this and that. It'll be a problem. Okay. You know? So that's what I would like to see more from the female delegation is literally just listening. And really, I've been saying this for a while. Men are people too. We're not socialized to believe that. Even men, we're not socialized to believe that because for so long, our utility was rooted in our, in how disposable we were. I think about it. Men that were celebrated were warriors. You're disposable at war. Where men of industry, you're disposable at the job. You know? So a lot of men's identity is rooted in our disposability and a lot of women's expectations in us are also rooted in our disposability. So we have to start dismantling that, especially as black, that's men in general, but especially as black people, we have to start dismantling that and starting to try to see value in men outside of just his disposability. You know? Is it going to happen tomorrow, though? But I'm hoping with some of these conversations, we can kind of move in that direction. I hope so too.  They're going to say them Vancouver nods, That's what they're going to say. For women who are, let's say, 28 plus, right? Is the general perception that it's too late for us? Because I see a lot of people say, this generation is pretty much done, but maybe the next generation, they can get it right. But there's still women who are still fairly young. They want to have a family and stuff. And we're just kind of in this in-between phase where we don't know if we're kind of like a lost cause. Do you feel like we are coachable and you're willing to work with us? Or is that just the fantasy at this point? I think it depends on the type of man you want. Like the type of man you would be comfortable with.  I think if I was a woman, I'd probably be a dyke. But because it's so much, it's so much like, it's such a nuanced existence, primarily because for instance, if you're 25, and let's say you're ready to settle down, have kids in the whole nine. And biologically that's the optimal time. Most 25 year old dudes, they ain't really trying to settle down because they haven't even made it yet. They haven't sold their royal oats yet. So then your options become either you get with an older man who might not be as exciting or fun or relate to me as well as my 25, 26, 27 year old dude but is more ready for the things that I ultimately want. Or I wait for maybe the opportunity where this 25 year old dude, maybe when he's 27, decides he's ready to leave the streets. And I think it's the same thing for like 28, 29, 30 year old woman. The question would be, what are you willing to sacrifice? What do you want most?  It is. Number one, number two, it's not 100% successful. So to have that as a plan A is ridiculous. But yeah, if kids are primary driving thing, then you really have to decide like these things on my list, what can I start crossing off? Cause if I find this dude who checks off these things on my list, it means checking off other people's lists as well. So why would he want to, and this goes back to, can you think from the perspective of a man? Right. But yeah, yeah, do you think some women's lists are too long or do you think they're not long enough? I think, so with the whole listing, I think it's very complex, right? Because I do think that women have very long lists, but I also believe that when a woman finds a man that she likes, even if he doesn't hit a lot of things on that list, she'll start being a little bit more accommodating and she might relax some of the things that are on there. So yes and no. What I do think though is that we we're more willing to accept a guy who aesthetically or materialistically checks the boxes on our list, but doesn't meet the internal qualities that would make a relationship successful. Whereas if we have a good guy who has those internal qualities, but he's not aesthetically pleasing or doesn't make the money that we want him to make, we won't entertain that guy. And so I do think that it puts us in a vicious cycle because then the way that we're navigating dating is counterproductive to what we want our end goal to be. So yeah. I think it's partly why a lot of guys stop empathizing with women because in my experience, most women, especially the ones who are relatively more attractive than average, they have at least one guy in their phone. If they call them, it was like, you know what Steve? I'm ready.  So the question now becomes, is your list in priority order? Ooh, I'm feeling tagged. Yeah, it's like, boom, boom, shout to the heart. Wow, yeah. Okay. You got a Steve? I think everyone that has a Steve, honestly. And she don't even have to be above average looking. Like every woman probably has a Steve. Yeah. But I think that we, again, going back to this idea of feeling like you have more options than you really do. And so we're always searching for something better. There was this, it was like a meme or like a video that I saw. The house? No, the woman, she was running up the stairs. Did you see that one? And she kept going to the next floor. I think somebody's better than she got to the top and there was nobody there. And I think that's what a lot of people face. Probably when we get older and, you know, appearance starts changing and things like that where we spent so much time trying to find something better and then we realized that there's nothing there. To, in y'all's defense, I do think it's a consequence of women now having to fall into purpose is be men. You now have to take care of yourself and this, this and that. The aesthetic requirements that I think our mothers and our grandmothers were more relaxed on and the charisma requirements. Now it's like, nah, you got to be that dude or you hear a lot of women say, if you're not him, I don't want it. Like I would rather be by myself than to waste my time with a man who is not whatever I've deemed to be the optimal. Whereas back in the day, a lot of our parents and grandparents, they wanted a man. So like there was a survey a few years ago and I think it was even among white people, but they asked men, if you found a woman with 80% of what you want, would you be okay with that?  They asked women, women say that's not enough. So what do you think the number is for a woman that is enough? Women are weird, right? Because to your point, if you like a dude, you'll throw that list away. But I think most women, if they were just making the list just by themselves, they'd say, no, he's got to be all these sixes. He's got to be this, this, this, and this, and I'm starting there. And I think where it hurts y'all sometimes is that when you are encountered with a potentially great guy, you don't meet him with your best self because he's not checking these arbitrary boxes, right? So like, you guys could have been a great match in this and that, but like, he's too short.  You feel what I'm saying? Or he's too light or too dark, whatever you're into. So you're not even giving him like your best. So now he doesn't even see you as a potential, whatever, right? And I think it's just catch 22. One of the best lists I've ever heard from a woman, she said, I only want four things.  She said, and I've been telling women this list because I think it is the optimal list because it's concise. She said, you have to be able to make me think. You have to be able to make me laugh. You have to be able to make me feel safe. And you have to be able to make me. Okay. And what's funny about that list is like, when a lot of women are talking about, for instance, I want a man who's tall or big or muscular, what they're really saying is I want to feel safe. Yeah. Now they've boiled it down to a superficial thing, but I know some five, five, knock out a six foot three dude, you know? So I would encourage women, again, prioritize your list and then condense it as much as you can and make the main thing the main thing because you might be overlooking or running off potentially, man, freaking tastic options.  Yeah, way out down the house, huh? That's what I'm saying. Your dad is at six, five. Like your great-grandfather did not make six figures of his time. He worked in the coal mine. Like, come on, we got to start. Yeah. And I think part of what's frustrating for me is I think women have abandoned their power in the sense that women, and not just women, but females of any species literally dictate the market. Whatever women are saying they want to see for men is what men become. That's why we're growing struggle beards. That's why we get the haircuts we get. That's why we wear the outfits we wear because we're trying to get y'all on a shallow end. We're trying to get some pussy. On a high end, we're trying to find a mate, right? So if women start saying, oh no, I want men to be more chivalrous, more well-dressed, more well-grown, whatever the case may be, we will see more of that. But as long as our women on the Mac or asking for superficial metrics, yeah, you're gonna see a lot of six-foot dudes, six-foot assholes. So are you thinking from the perspective of is this man going to be a potentially great father and grandfather? Or are we gonna potentially take great Instagram pictures? I think most women are only thinking about this, Instagram pictures. And great. It's supposed to be longevity.


Hey everyone, welcome to this special Cube conversation. I'm Lisa Martin, I'm pleased to be joined by the CEO of Certinia, Scott Brown. Scott, it's great to have you. We're going to be talking about services as a business platform. Welcome to the program. It's great to be here, Lisa. You mentioned something intriguing and I want to really crack this open and tease this in the opener, services as a business platform. The video talked about some of the things that customers in every business need, that's agility, increasingly it's intelligence, it's certainty. Talk about services as a business platform, Saab, and what it really is, and how it's relevant in today's market. Yeah, absolutely. You know, it's good to put this kind of in a historical context, right? If we looked at the global economy 200 years ago, the vast majority of it was products, very little was service, right? It'd be 70, 80% products, maybe 20% services. Today, it's completely flipped, right? 60, 70% of all global GDP of services, only about 30% is products. So the world has changed, but yet along the way, very few people have paid attention to what does this 70% need? What capabilities do they need to deliver that? And that's what services as a business is all about. What things can we deliver that are gonna help people in the service economy to effectively be able to deliver that customer experience? And it's a really difficult transition for most companies to make, to move from a product orientation to a services orientation, right? So when you look at the evolution of the global economy, all the growth is happening in services. It's a great place to be. The bad news is, if you're looking for automation, there's very little out there to allow you to actually deliver a great experience. So talk a little bit, and that makes a lot of sense. I read some articles that you wrote recently, a fast company article where you talked about as services as a business platform, as a reference model for really delivering those key capabilities for helping businesses run a services arm wing business effectively. And another thing that you said in that article that really struck me, and we've talked about this before, is services as a business platform is grounded in an innovative customer experience. The customer experience has changed so much, especially in the last few years alone, where we have an expectation we're going to always be connected. We're going to be able to access anything we need in our business lives, in our personal lives. It's going to be relevant. It's going to be, we're going to be able to trust it. So talk about delivering the customer experience that these businesses need. Let's really kind of dig into that, because it's all about the customer experience at the end of the day. It is, it is. So let me give you a, I love to give a customer example. So Avalara, everybody knows Avalara, right? They're incredible when it comes to tax automation, and lots of folks use them. We do, we have an interface to them. And Avalara is a customer of ours, right? Anytime they sign a new customer, it immediately creates a project for the implementation of their technology, and it immediately sets in place the milestones by which the customer is going to get live with their technology and their software. That automation, right? It used to take three, four, five days for them to get the project set up, and then inconsistent processes associated with the milestones in delivering those projects, and then the revenue recognition, the billing, the planning for the next project, all those things before were manual. Today at Avalara, the minute they get a new customer, they're off and running, and all the processes are tied together. And, you know, if you talk to them, they'll say, complex problems need complex tools to solve them. And, you know, at the end of the day, it's about creating the simplicity of the experience for the customer that's most important. So Avalara uses our system to do that. So at the end of the day, when you look at the experience, the experience starts in the pre-sales process. So what can you do to make that process great? Why did we enter the service as CPQ market? Because when you're quoting service, they can actually reach into the PSA system and see who are the resources we're gonna put on this project? When are they available? What are their experiences? What are their capabilities? What would the project look like? And actually quote the project. One of the big issues people have in this part of the economy is, they're as quoted to a customer versus they're as delivered, are almost always out of sync with each other. And what happens then to the business? You have revenue leakage, you have margin leakage, and you end up not meeting your customer's expectations. Or churn. Yeah. So from the very beginning, you're quoting a service experience that you can actually deliver over here. Those things are connected. It's very powerful for the people that are out there trying to create that great customer experience. I can imagine that is only a massive competitive differentiator for customers like you just articulated. Yeah, it is. That today is essential. Yeah, it is. And for them, the services are what are gonna distinguish the experience for the customer, right? They've already decided the product works. Avalara is a great product. But the service experience that happens post-sales actually distinguishes then NPS and the happiness of the customer long-term. I love the voice of the customer. You've done such a great job of really bringing in key customer stories that just really very ostensibly demonstrate the value proposition. And I think that's one of the most important things businesses can do. Because I think at the end of the day, there really isn't much more validating than not just the voice of the customer, but the metrics and the outcomes and what you articulate. I could only imagine the numbers that they're gonna be able to show in terms of how they really move the business forward and transformed based on certainty. Yeah, and you know, when I go in and I talk to those C-suite executives, I generally ask them just two questions. The first question is, what's your research utilization today? Right? Oh, it's 65%. What do you want it to be? 80%, okay, great. Second question, what's your margin per project? Oh, it's 8%. What do you want it to be? 22%, great. Then I grab a bar napkin and I'll write down, okay, 4,000 people, 15 points improvement in utilization, this number of projects, this margin improvement. Your payback is $100 million. You know, I was down in Australia with another customer. We literally went through this exercise, the payback for them is $100 million. This is not one of those things where you say, I'm a security endpoint, I'm gonna do a little bit better job at getting malware or I'm a collaboration tool and you're all gonna work together a little bit better. The hard dollar savings in doing this kind of automation is off the charts easy to figure out. Ask those two questions. If you know the answer to those two, you can figure out what the ROI is. I paid for this system as a customer in four and a half months, right? It doesn't take a long time to do it, but what was most important as you talked about before was delivering a great outcome for our customers. But the economics of this, a services business that runs at high efficiency, high margin, great project milestones, great progress billing, great revenue management. I mean, it's a great profitable business as well. It's a no-brainer. It really is. Cool things about you, Scott, is that you talked about being a customer of what's now search India at Cisco. And at Teradata. And at Teradata as well. So you bring a different perspective. And I think that's always so invaluable to companies to understand these are the challenges out there that the users are having. You talked about what services as a business means, but we know that these organizational leaders are juggling so many different things right now. They have to attract new business. They have to strengthen existing customer relationships, foster new ones. They have to optimize revenue. What are some of the challenges that maybe you faced as a user back in the day? And maybe some of the extant current challenges that search India services as a business is eradicating for your customer base. Because it sounds like the value of the ROI is there. Yeah. I mean, the number one issue I always had using the system as a customer was getting the right person on the right project at the right time, you know?  If you don't utilize that human capital goes away. And if you get that right person that has the right background on the right project at the right time to the customer, it's magic, right? It gives them an experience that's unlike any other. If you get the wrong people, don't have the right experiences, don't have the right availability and you don't have the right plan, you're not gonna have a great customer experience. There was a great Harvard Business Review article that talked about the world is moving to projects, right? And all those people were putting them on projects and were managing those projects amazingly well for the benefit of the customer. If you don't have great project management at the core of what you do, it doesn't matter how good your resource management is, you're not gonna be able to deliver that great customer experience. So when, you know, HBR has said the world is moving to projects, well, you better have an architecture and system that allows you to manage those projects for your customers exceptionally well. For customers that are maybe nascent in or have a services business that really one of the challenges that a lot of customers face is this lack of connected software, not integrated. A lot of things just don't work together, data's in silos, users can't get what they need to in a timely manner. How do they start? How do you advise organizations that maybe have a cultural block? What's the game plan for a business that's really kind of behind and has to accelerate as quickly as possible? Yeah, it's a great question. You know, in the good old days, people used to pick point products, right? Lots of vertical solutions that were the best in their little area. And then they became the integrator and it's a nightmare, right? Every time I want to upgrade, anytime I want things to work together, I got 26 different versions of my truth. In today's world, you need to pick a platform, right? You know, in our case, it's a salesforce.com, it could be a service now, it could be another platform. But you pick a small number of platforms and you put everything onto those platforms and make that work together, make that your single source of truth. So for us, being on Salesforce, if I start an opportunity in Salesforce, it's there for us, it's the same opportunity, it's the same customer, it's the same resource, all the things that are there, none of it's duplicated, none of it you have to worry about synchronizing it. You never have to worry when you do an upgrade at API and things together. So the good old days was I had 106 of these products and my job was to make them to fit together. Today, pick two or three platforms and make those platforms the anchor of everything that you do, right? It simplifies your world tremendously. I love that, really talking about an anchor point. You talked about single source of truth. We talk about that a lot. It's really challenging for organizations to find. There's so much data duplication out there, it's not even funny. But in a blog post that I read that you wrote recently, you talked about finding one's business truth, which I love that. In Forbes article you called, I love this, a single source of truth, the holy grail of services business operations. A lot of folks, as we talked about, struggle with that connected piece. So how do you advise and how does Sartinia help businesses find their one business truth and really get to that holy grail so that they can really maximize the value and achieve the ROI that you're saying is sitting on the table? Yeah, it starts with the customer. What is the experience I want to deliver? How does that differentiate me in the market and go backward to ask yourself the question, what are all the capabilities I need to deliver? Again, go back to an Avalara. They said we need an immediate project to be created after the customer is there with standardized project milestones that deliver that outcome vastly faster than it did before. To time to value is a big conversation that you have and if you can get to that value quicker for your customer, you're gonna have cross sell, add on additional business with them. If you're plotting along through a very difficult implementation because you have all these disparate systems that don't work together, the customer experience is bad, but so is your business performance, right? Both of them suffer in that environment. So the more you can ask yourself the question, am I working off of one set of numbers? Am I working off of one customer, one opportunity? Is everything working together off of one integrated set of data, the more you're gonna be able to take your customer experience and put that top of your list as opposed to data synchronization and system synchronization as a thing that you're spending your time and precious effort on. I'm glad you mentioned time to value. We look at that and in marketing think, well, it's a marketing term unless it can be substantiated. There's a lot of unintended value in really accelerating time to value. Put some numbers on that. Maybe another customer example where they've really been able to just turn the volume up and achieve value from start to finish because a lot of times organizations struggle, we talked about the lack of connectivity but the certainty I think in certain years is obvious as what you articulated. But what's a great example that you think really articulates and demonstrates numerically and acceleration and time to value? Sure, a great example would be Salesforce. Salesforce uses our system to run their entire services organization and they were able to actually dramatically reduce their resource time. They scaled up to seven, eight, 9,000, 10,000 consultants and they couldn't over time effectively staff those because it used to be, oh, five, 10, 15 people that they were staffing. Now it's 200, 300 or more people on a project. They can staff those people immediately. They can actually start the projects immediately, right? The turnaround time for them relative to their ability to serve their customer went down dramatically. Their ability to deliver complex projects went up dramatically. And if you look at it for them, they have a core, incredible software franchise. If you can surround it very quickly with the services that help people to get value out of it, it's game changer for them. I was just, you took the words right out of my mouth. It's a game changer. So we talked about the name. It makes so much sense about, especially with the macro environment that we're in and the dynamics that will continue to exist. Last question, any feedback from customers or analysts that are really excited to demonstrate? Yeah, we nailed this. Well, it's fine. I've talked to a number of folks that were out there and actually did rebranding, right? Like UKG is an example. I talked to a former CEO and I took their CMO and I loved it when she said, that is the perfect rebranding. I mean, they're a customer, right? And she immediately said that completely resonates with me as a customer. I love it. I can't believe that name is still out there and available. And I believe every day when we wake up, we're looking for certainty out of the capabilities your system brings. So she brought a little flutter to my heart when she validated that because they went through the ultimate and Chronos merger and I was just calling them to learn from them on best practices. They validated back as a customer. This is fantastic and we think you nailed it. So I feel great about it. I think it speaks to the core benefit we provide which is certainty. And I think our customers that have been with us on this journey for a long time, they're gonna resonate with this. And I think they see that the company has outgrown our current name. There's no question about it. This shows what we aspire to do for them. And that's what's most important for us. I feel like you guys have hit the holy, you found the holy grail here with the name, but also just really doing such a great job of monitoring the maturation of the evolution and really being able to tell a very succinct story to not just your existing customer base, which we said earlier is over 1,400 across 30 plus countries. The value proposition is absolutely crystal clear like a beautiful sunny day. Yeah, it is. Really, I think this guy's the limit for you guys. I think it is. I think we're just getting started. All right, well, early innings, we're gonna keep our eyes on this space, Scott. It's been such a pleasure talking to you about this, the importance, the value in it for customers, for companies all across the globe. We can't wait to watch the space. Thank you for joining me. Thank you for having me, Lisa. All right, we want to thank you for watching this CUBE conversation. Lisa Martin with Scott Brown. Check out certinia.com to learn more. I know you're gonna want to. We'll see you next time.


Okay, we're back in the Cube, in San Francisco, live at the Node Summit. Node Summit in San Francisco is a place, I'll see San Francisco groundbreaking at all fronts these days. All the new tech is happening in San Francisco, the startups, the developers, and we're here with Oren Taish, the COO of Haruku, recently acquired by Salesforce. Great success story in San Francisco, pioneered a lot of the work going on in cloud, developers, and really allowed people to really pump their apps out and get in the marketplace, create a lot of value for shareholders, developers, Oren, you excited? What's going on? Tell us what's happening, you're smiling. You bet, it's an amazing job. It's an amazing company, it's an amazing place to be. You know, there's some really amazing, what does that mean, right? It's always interesting to talk about metrics, so actually today, just totally coincidentally, but today, you go to haruku.com, the homepage, we cross a million apps deployed on the platform today, and I think even more impressively, we've got over 1.1 million deploys every single month going on right now. So people just love this platform, they are using it left and right. You know, I love the cloud, and as an entrepreneur, and I talk to developers all the time, the word enablement, enable success, that's kind of a buzzword. You guys really have done that, so take us through some quick, the reader's digest version of the history of Haruku and some of the key things you guys done, because you guys were a real enabler for developers, and just take us through some of the highlights, high moments of what you guys have done over the past three years, especially now with Salesforce, but go back a little bit, because you've been in the cloud business, you've known the market for a long time, and just give us a quick highlights of those enablements. Yeah, yeah, so four years ago when Haruku got founded by three guys, James, Adam, and O'ryan, they're the three co-founders of Haruku, it actually started as an online IDE. So the idea was developers have all this passion, they want to get things done, but it's just too hard, right? That getting started problem was just too hard. So we started off with an online IDE, and pretty quickly, and just got an amazing traction, and then pretty quickly realized that, there's actually a really interesting problem here, which is not just the development side, but actually the deployment side. So yeah, the reality is that, here you are, you're sitting with a Mac, and the experience of developing has just gotten better and better there, but then you hit this brick wall. What do you do from there? And so Haruku, to really use a buzzword, pivoted, and started to focus on the deployment side of things, and that's kind of when the fire got lit. So that was three years ago now, and since then, we've just been growing like mad, doing outstanding, and really what it's about for us is it's about focusing on the developer, 100% on the developer. So what that means is, how do you make sure that it's within their workflow, using their tools, using their experience, how do you make sure that every time you ever make a decision, you put the developer first, and it's resonated. We've just seen developers continue to respond to that every single time. So take us through the key, key aha moment for the developers. Is it ease of use? Is it efficiency, all the above? What's the key thing that you can point to that really knocked it out of the park? I'd actually say it's design. And design, what I mean when I say the word design is what I mean is you need to think about an intent and then ensure that everything is aligned around that. So a really simple, really concrete example of that would be how do you deploy your application to Haruku? You know, when you think about this problem, you have a set of source code, again running basically on your laptop, and you want to get that somewhere else. You want to get that up into the cloud. How do you do that? So before we were around, oh, you'd FTP it, and you'd use these different tools, and we realized this is insane, right? What you really want to do is you want to work into, you want to design into the existing developer workflow. And so Haruku invented the idea of using Git as a deployment mechanism. We're the very first people to do that, right? So Git push Haruku master, one line, and then you are using the existing tools you're using and you're deploying into a very, very simple mechanism to do that. And so to me, what that's about is it's this designed idea.  So I'm really excited about what you guys have done because like a bunch of other companies that are out there doing this work, there's the early adopters, the pioneers, the Facebooks, the Twitters, the Harukus, the Joints.  But this notion of engineering and operations kind of converging together really has been a phenomenon of the cloud, public cloud, the Amazon kind of DNA where operations is development. So we're launching this week a new publication called devopsangle.com, a plug for our SiliconANGLE network growing media empire. But you're in that, you've been there for a long time. You guys have DevOps guys who are religious about this. Can you share with the folks out there what you think this DevOps movement is? Because I talked with Jonathan, the guy who used to run Facebook who's now on his own. It's very clicky and these guys talk to each other because there's only a few companies really pioneering DevOps and it's Facebook. It's guys who have these provisioning of hardware, huge growth curves. What is DevOps and what does it mean to like an IT department who's like, eh, slow? You know, I think that the best person to ask could actually be someone who works for me. So I want to maybe give you a slightly different perspective which is as an executive side, what does it mean for my company? Because the reality of like, what's DevOps? I have a team of people who are living that life but I don't. And so- Can you get him on the cube? I could, we could absolutely get him here, yeah. All right, Mark Hopkins, we'll get on that. Right, Mark Embriaco, he's the one you want to talk to if you want to know like, exactly what DevOps is. But what I can say is what it means for our business. But it's a real trend, I mean, can you tell me? Yo, yeah. I think it's a real, not only is it a real trend, it's something that really enables us. So the fact that we live a DevOps life, the fact that, and what does that mean, right? What that means is that developers are responsible for what they write. What it means is that operations needs to work with you to enable the business, not to, before I joined Heroku, I don't know, in the industry, they're often here about the TNT guys, the no team, right? And that's not Ops's role here. Ops's role is in enablement, they're part of the business. The no team. The no team, TNT, never go to the TNT guys.  So, you know, and it's about changing that mindset. And so what we've seen for us is it means that we're deploying multiple times every single day continuously. It means that the engineers are empowered to own exactly what they need to own and not be like, oh, do I need to check here? Do I need to check here? It's, no, it's my responsibility and it's my responsibility for quality as well. So I can't just put something out there and then throw it over the wall and expect someone else to make sure that this is ultimately gonna work. And what it means for our business is, frankly, a velocity that we would never have done what we did without this. It would have been flat out impossible for our business to exist if this isn't the way we operated. And why is that? At speed, we have, so today we're getting close to 100 people but back when Salesforce bought us we were just a few dozen people. And if you look at the velocity and the set of features and capabilities that we've put out over that time, it's really, I think, unmatched. You know, we have changed the definition of what it means to be a platform as a service. And that came about because of our ability to innovate and release quickly. There was a platform as a service panel out there today. It was saying nothing really was being said there. What's the state of the platform as a service marketplace? Is there a marketplace? Is it being commoditized? Where's the value being created in this platform as a service business? Oh, it was a panel. Of course, nothing was being said. Not only, we say it on the queue, but I mean, okay, I'll be more critical. What's going on with platform as a service? You know, because as one school thought it's the race to zero, depending on how you look at it. And there's also construction of value at the top of the stack where you want to build more applications or expose more APIs and the fear for people is I don't want to be a tool company, right? So I'm a developer. I'm like, I don't want to be a tool. I want to be part of a platform. So there's some contention around this platform as a service business model. What do you see in there? Do you have a perspective? I do, I have a perspective which says that there's never been a single instance of where a new abstraction layer hasn't fundamentally reshaped what the world we look at is. And so platform as a service is a new layer of abstraction. This is a new, higher level way of developers engaging in writing code and history has shown that to always, well, okay, maybe I can think of one or two fails starts, but there's definitely quite a bit of momentum behind that. And so, yeah, I think it's a tricky space. Will, here's my take, a decade from now we will no questions asked be looking back and saying, absolutely, platform as a service has changed what it means to create applications. Now, of course I believe it's Roku but it could be us, it could be someone else, it could be someone on the panel or it could be someone who doesn't exist yet. That's, now we're starting to get into corporate politicking and boostership, right? But I do fundamentally believe this new layer of abstraction, this new way of thinking. You said you don't want to be a tool or other thing. This is about developers. I hate to do it, the Steve Bommer quote, maybe old, old, old, but developers, developers, developers. And someone even on Twitter was making fun of that. But you can make fun of that. At the end of the day, it's true. It's fundamentally true. And I've been a developer a long time. Developers' lives often are terrible. The experience of how you're actually working is terrible. And we can make this so much better and enable so much more value for the businesses. And I think that's what PASS is about. So yeah, there's no question this is going to change everything. What does PASS mean for the operations team though? Are there jobs going away, being outsourced to the cloud, to PASS providers, to infrastructure providers, you're running on Amazon. So even at your layer, there's a certain amount of outsourcing going on. That's right, that's right. I think it all comes to business value. To me is actually what this is about. So what is the goal of ops? I would argue that the goal of ops is not to deploy an app. That's not your job. Your job is to enable applications to run effectively within the constraints of your business. And so people have crossed these wires and said, oh no, no, no, my job is to watch that console and make sure that that light never turns red. But they're missing the actual business value. And CIOs all around are really frustrated because they're not able to deliver the business value. And they're constantly thought of as a cost basis. What this actually lets these teams do is actually start to focus up that value chain. So the very same people now, when you're freed up from doing some stuff that you don't need to do anymore, you're enabled to deliver on that value side. They can become a profit center instead of a cost center. Potentially, absolutely. That's so much structured around the business side of things. What I will say is they can become delivering value. And I actually think VMware did an amazing job with the virtualization layer for enabling a team of people who used to always be saying no to giving the value and delivery services. Now all of a sudden with virtualization, these teams are able to say, oh yeah, I can have a disaster recovery plan for you. I can give you all these business features. Now we're enabling them to go to the next level. This new level of abstraction lets these same ops people now say, oh yeah, I'm actually monitoring things like how your application performance is going. I'm actually monitoring the portfolio of applications to make sure that these are operating the way we expect them to. And that, I think, is just pure money for everyone involved. Since we're at Node Summit, I think we should maybe talk about Node.js a little bit. Node.js is one of the first languages besides Ruby that you supported on Heroku. Number two. And you were one of the very first platforms as a service to offer a beta support for Node.js. So why was Node.js the second thing that you rolled out? Plain and simple as developers. We listened to what the groundswell of interest is and what we were hearing loud and clear. And to be fair, it's a developer on our side who heard this. Blake Mizoraini is the creator of Sinatra. And he was like, man, this Node thing is amazing. I can't believe what you can do with this language. We have to support it. And we listen. We listen to those bleeding edge. We listen to what people like Blake say. And we follow in them and make sure that we're making the developers happy. How much traction has Node.js gotten on your platform? Incredible traction. It's the second most popular language on the platform to date. And if you consider that to use Node.js on Heroku is actually not the default path, right? The default path is still to use Ruby. So if you consider that it's still not the default path, people have to opt in. They have to choose to use this. They have to do an extra step. It's incredible the traction was saying. Just absolutely mind-boggling. Are there any customers that you can talk about that are using Node.js on Heroku? I'm actually kind of frustrated in that they've all been very private. This is always a challenge. I can talk in general. Like there's one customer that's doing this incredible, incredible app. It's actually, I was mentioning during the panel what they're doing is a machine to machine app.  What they actually have is they have a distributed system that this customer does themselves running. And this distributed system is actually using a component on Heroku to manage the distributed system itself. And so you have this distributed system with a component running on Heroku and they're doing mind-boggling traffic. If this was a website, they would be in like the top 20 websites in the world kind of traffic. And this is just a machine to machine distributed systems component that they're running. And so we're seeing some just really amazing, amazing things. And this is from a public multibillion dollar company that's running on Heroku. Just can't say who they are right now. And so there's that, of course, there's also people who are doing, there's actually a really interesting iPad backend. For example, someone has an app that does all sorts of interesting image processing in the backend of that's all running on Heroku. So a wide range of things that are going on right now. Okay. Well, I just want to throw one harder question at you, I guess before we have to sign off. I saw a lot of skepticism on Twitter earlier when you announced that you had passed one million applications. It was like, how many of those are cat.jpeg or you know, some sort of Hello World app that's not for the Facebook platform. So a while back, Engine Yard had suggested that a better metric for how much business platforms of services doing might be CPU cycles instead of number of apps deployed. I think that's actually, if you're saying that, you don't understand platform as a service. I might be misremembering which met. Well, I would say the metric that matters. Whether it was CPU cycles or if it was some, but it was some, you know, some quantifiable machine metric rather than. I agree. Then just number of apps. Right, so I agree. I would say that what matters, keep in mind pass is about abstraction. If we're talking about infrastructure as a service, we should be talking about CPU or memory or network. But if we're talking about pass, we should be talking about developers. So something machine, that makes a lot of sense. So the metric I'm going to give you is deploys. What more could you ask, right? This isn't like Hello World, this isn't cat.jpeg. If you're doing a deploy, you are by definition engaging and actively using the platform, right? And so Heroku is doing 1.1 million deploys every single month right now. Well, actually it's more than that. In the past 30 days, we've done 1.1 million deploys and that number is just accelerating. So that's not Hello World. Or if it is, it's people deploying Hello World and iterating on their app. Which actually isn't the case. But this is the debugging Hello World, right? So what we're seeing is real use cases of people really engaging with and modifying and deploying and iterating on those real applications. And so 1.1 million of those a month, it's a real number. John, did you have any other questions for them? Just kind of quick update before we go to the next guest. What's next for you guys? Obviously the question everyone wants to know is what's it like at Salesforce? Yeah. We know you guys had a race to do a lot of stuff that some would call medieval for Heroku standards, you know, Java, et cetera, and things that you were working on. What's it like there now? I mean, you guys getting along, is it cool?  So what's the status of the Salesforce integration? I feel like before I answer that straight, I'm going to come across as a shill. So I need to give you just one background, which is I've been through another acquisition before. I came out here in 99 and that acquisition was a disaster, really bad. So coming from, I actually shed a tear when I heard about the acquisition. I was really afraid of how bad this could go. And the simple reality is it's been amazing. Unquestionably, the company has been supportive. Salesforce is an amazing company. But here I am, I'm part of it. So everyone who's watching is like yeah, yeah, yeah, blah, blah, blah. The only thing that matters is the results. So the ultimate question is how when you go to Heroku.com, when you attend our events, when you speak to us, when you use our platform, what do you think? It's easy for me to say we're all about the developers, but let me put it back. It's easy for me to say it's going great. I'm going to ask the developer community, hop on Twitter, talk to us. Make sure, do you think we're doing an amazing job? I really believe the answer is yes. And hopefully the results will be. Good reviews.  He's a founder. He's around. He's hanging around. He's a lot of passion. He's very authentic. I talked to him a lot on Facebook. He's responsive. That's a cool culture. I, we need to keep in mind, again, from a developer perspective, so many people are like afraid of money. And Benioff is someone who is shown the weight as a founder to make a real business and to recognize how you don't need to compromise.  You can do things well and nicely and still be effective. And you know, he's outrageous. He's a philanthropist. He donated a lot of money to this medical facility here. It's incredible. It's a vision area, so he's been great. You guys had a great run doing good things at Salesforce. Just sat together over there with the cloud. Congratulations. Thank you. And we look forward to collaborating with you guys on Devops Angle. You bet. Thanks for your support. Thank you very much. Thanks for being on theCUBE. Orientation CEO of Heroku. Thanks for coming on theCUBE. We'll be right back in five minutes.


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Brainerd High School has come under fire for comments against President Donald Trump published in the yearbook. A page in the yearbook asked students about their thoughts on the president. One of the sophomore students that was quoted said, I would like to be had him and I do not like him. The superintendent says that the district was previously unaware of the statements and is now investigating how this could have occurred. The district does not in any in any fashion endorse these kind of disrespectful statements. These statements are contrary to the basic educational mission of our district. Upset community members met a few blocks away from school to express their opposing viewpoints. The student who made the comments told KSTP that her comments were made as a joke. I basically was just like well I wouldn't mind if you was beheaded or something like that and you know we both laughed it was a joke I laughed. The district is offering to refund any yearbook purchases upon request. If you've enjoyed this segment of Lakeland news please consider making a tax deductible contribution to Lakeland Public Television.


So that's something else. Well, I mean, fascinating looking in top three. Like, he knows me better than I do. I don't understand. Coaster dynamics, because you have the striker one. Courtesy of Brendan is on. We just got a lot. OK, we're getting separated from the group. All these pictures now that I have to post, I'm just going to find Cedar Fletcher for Courtesy of Brendan. Thanks, Brendan. No problem. Yeah, this is an amazing trip. Yeah, as long as you had fun, this trip was literally for you. Greg, what happened yesterday with Twisted? Wicked Twister. Twisted Wicker. Twisted Timbers. Wicked Timber. Wicked Cyclone. What's going on? Wicked, uh, no, Wicked the, Wicked Twister, I think. Right? It's called Wicked Twister? Yeah. OK, yeah, Wicked Twister. Two yellow sticks, I think. Yeah, what happened? I guess I should explain the story. Yeah. OK. So for the last, for those of you that don't know, people probably look at me and they go, oh, he's bad. Blah, blah, blah. You're still overweight. Well, the truth of the matter is, I used to be extremely overweight. Used to be a lot bigger. I haven't been able to fit on Wicked Twister for three to four years now. Three years? I don't know. Oh, yeah, you did see it for the first time with me. But I fit yesterday with Room to Spare. Super excited. You got to add, like, the clapping effects in the background. Right? So it's working. Progress. Yay. Yay. We're going to join a gym for the summer to lose the remainder of this. Wait. OK, well, we're here on day two. We forgot to vlog that yesterday because we were so busy getting our rides. We're taking Craig's family, his brother and his dad, over to Maverick. Yay. They're going to have an art attack. Oh. They're more GP than I am. Oh. It's pretty hard to millennium force. What is it clickable? Liss. It is force. So can we talk about this a little more? Day two of the vlog. Let's go into detail. Millennium force. Socks. OK. It doesn't suck. But, like, it is so overrated. Why do people think that's a top tier coaster? It's really not. Every BNM gig is way better. You know it's not a top tier coaster when you can have a full-blown conversation with the person next to you. Yeah, like, Craig and I literally, like, we're talking. I don't know what it is. I'm not trying to offend anyone. We're not trying to, like, clickbait and thing. It's just not. It does not deserve to be on the top 10 list at all. Basically, we're going to pause this back to Millennium while we're currently waiting in a broken rides line.  OK, you're over exaggerating. It's not that bad. But it's just not a top. It's like a maverick. Oh. It being closed. So what do you dislike about Millennium? Basically, it's only good thing is height and speed. Yeah. That is it. There's nothing. It's elements are drawn out. There's no airtime except for that little bunny hop at the end. And that's not even airtime. Yeah, it's not good airtime. Like, any B&M, giga and hyper gives you better airtime. I don't know why it's still here. I mean, for its time, it was amazing. Like, I remember back in the day when I used to come here, like, making myself sense old. It was the scariest ride ever. Back in the 50s. I was terrified. But now it just doesn't stand. Like, fury belongs way above it. Leviathan belongs way above it. Steel vengeance belongs above it. Like, there's so many rides that belong way ahead of Millennium 4s. It's just not. People are just stubborn. Yeah, it's just like, why is it still holding that third best ride in the world? It does not deserve that title. I don't care what anyone says. It's in the top 50, and it would be number 50, if that. I don't know where I'd place it in the top 50. It wouldn't be 50. It'd be a lot higher than that. It's a giga. You have to give it credit where credits do. But it does not belong in the top 10. It would be lucky if it belonged in the top 20. I would say it's between 20 and 30. Oh, okay. Barely.  Oh, okay, okay. I think 50, and that's that. Yeah. Oh, well, that's my personal opinion. We're gonna get a drag for that, but whatever. I honestly don't care. My opinion's right.  Yeah, well, I wouldn't say it sucks, but it's not an elite coaster on any form. And everyone at this park who loves it, for some reason. I don't even think I'd place it over Behemoth anymore. No, I wouldn't. I'd rather Behemoth. Like, if I were to choose between having Millennium Force at my park, or Behemoth, I would choose Behemoth. Although business-wise, Millennium Force would do a lot better than Behemoth at any point. Yeah, just because of the high. But we have Leviathan. Leviathan is way better. And it's not even pretty either. It's only pretty at night when you can't see it. It's very pretty at night, not pretty during the day. Over-supported, but that's due to its time and era that it was built. Even this has less supports. This is newer. How much newer? A lot newer. I think this was, I could be wrong, but I think this is 2008, or... 2008. Mavericks has all this Behemoth. Something around there. 2006, 2007, 2008. One of those time periods, I think. Yeah. There are much better rides here. Yeah. We're in line for Maverick. Wow. On day two at Cedar Point. Well, we're in line, no one else is though. No one else is here. Why? It's broken. It broke down. But, okay, so Cedar Point does something that Wonderland doesn't. And it's actually, so they first did a, we're going down for maintenance. Like, we'll have more information for you soon. Like this automatic announcement. And then I think like 15 minutes passed. And then they're telling us they're going to evacuate it and it's going to be an extended delay. Yeah, and then they tell guests to leave, which I think is really cool. And us being stubborn, posted enthusiasts are still on the line anyway. Yeah, we're going to stay. But I like that they update the guests, like with actual information. Like, Wonderland would never do that. Yeah. Like, I think that was very helpful. Like, it cleared the line out. Guests are going to enjoy other attractions in the parks without waiting. Most guests. Most guests, yeah. That's really cool. I like that. We're trying to get Craig's family on to Maverick because Maverick... Seems like every ride they go on breaks down, they wait for the whole ride. That is so true. They have really bad luck. Dad, the last time, you had bad luck with rides. Because now you come in this line and it breaks too. Who did they murder in their previous life? They're not broken. They're not beating their bills. All right, on to the next ride. Well, we're going to get on Maverick and then we'll update you guys. What's the next ride? Probably Steel Vegans, if it's open or top throw. Look at that face. It's a recovery. Okay, what happened at Maverick? We got exit passes. We got exit passes. But, but, but, but, but. We got exit passes. So what are we going to do with them? Maverick. We're going to try and use them on Maverick. If Maverick doesn't open, then we're just going to come back on my ride. Yeah, we're having a good day, though. Like, how many rides have we done without Fastlane today? We've basically done all the small coasters. And on Enforce. Yeah, today, coming on a Sunday, it's brilliant. Beautiful. Yeah. Kregas family is blown away by top throw drags today. I'm blown away by top throw drags today. Yeah, it's your, I almost think it's your favorite ride. It's third favorite, but I just love it so much. Yeah. Like, I like it more than the other two, but the other two are better regardless. Love this park. You absolutely love this park. I never want to go. We should just get jobs so we can live here. Yeah, why don't you ask your mom that? Although after our post yesterday, I don't think that's going to happen. Oh. All about Ravens now. So whenever it rains in this park, rides go down. This one's not going down yet for the rain. I know, which is surprising. Top throw drags just been running. Normally, it doesn't run in the rain, and I guess they just didn't get a call. Yeah, that's true. It's usually the first to go down. All right, so where are we headed now, Craig? Where are we headed to? You want to get on Blue Street? Although it's probably down for rain. Do you want to do Raptor then? Because it's right there. Yeah, let's get your family on Raptor. Oh, but there's five of those. Keep your hands up on those. Wow. Hi, Keith. What about a dive invert? That's not a good idea. No, like dive trains, six across, but on an invert. Ooh. Wait, what? Okay, you're explaining that in more detail now, GP. Like six trains, or six, sorry, six, like a row of six. Six seats across, that's what I meant. Okay, I think you're talking about like an invert design, like a dive coaster. Like six seats across. Six seats across. Just so I can ride with you guys on. Yeah, that's the only reason I made that up. I'll just kind of lay down across. Oh. Oh. I got a part. I haven't used the bathroom in three days. Oh, Max air's open. What the hell's Max air? The pendulum ride. Oh, where is it? In a distance, the giant orange arm. You just saw a move? Oh, hello. Hello. Hi. Hi. How are you? I'm okay, this is a great visit. Yeah, for real. Julian Love with Cedar Point, he's dressed in an up. I'm having a great visit. I know why this park irritates me a bit. I guess I just been. Oh, copyright is act. Are you ready? Yes. We got on the train, what happened? They turned the park, they forgot to turn the park and break off. Oh, that's what I'm going with. It took like 20 minutes to get started. The train went, oh my God. Jesus. Wow, 150 minute wait for steel vengeance. It mavericks me. Oh. Yeah. Looky here, it's a bad ride. Oh, wow. Why are they taking trains up? That's how Millennium goes up. That's the counterweight for it. It's the coolest part of the ride. I'm just sorry, I really do not like going in for this. Wait, why do the tunnels have power rooms? Oh, maybe. Or maybe the camera. I don't think a camera needs that much power. Yeah, that looks like. I don't think LED's new either. The ride's there. Oh, it's going up the lift hill right now. We are? Yep. See the cable up down. Oh, that's so cool. And steel vengeance is up, so the app is live. You know, maverick. Oh. I think they found it more fun than we did. Mary had a little lamb. This place was made of snow. Oh. I can't remember what I did. Oh. It was good, it was good. Yeah, well. Very fast, very fast. It's so good. I know. So I guess we're doing one more ride and then we're gonna. Well, the first ride we're doing is the bathroom. Oh. To what? The bathroom. You went insane. Well, it happens that you have Alzheimer's. But you have to have that ride. Oh. I guess you don't want to go home. No. Back to Wonderland. Back to Yukon Stryker being the best ride in the park. Can you go on something at Wonderland and you can be like, nah. I know. Yukon Stryker is the best ride in the park. That's not debatable, that's not up for debate. Oh. It's fat. Literally, I told, I warned you though that Wonderland's gonna be boring now. That's unfortunate. Once you come to Cedar Point, it ruins the whole park. That's unfortunate that it's across the street too. Oh. All right, well, let's go ride one more ride and then we'll wrap this second day vlog up. If we don't forget. Oh. Knowing us, we will forget. So this will probably be in the car. Yeah. We'll forget till halfway through the car. Or the end credits will start right now. Gregor, date number two. Yeah, we didn't forget this time. We're going home. You're going back to Canada's Wonderland? Ew. I mean, yeah. Cedar Point is the, he knows me better than I do. I don't understand. Coaster Dynamics, because you have the Yukon Stryker one. We're gonna see if Brendan is on that. We just got lost. Oh, okay. We're like getting separated from the group. All these pictures now that I've seen are quite true. Curtis and Brendan, yeah. But this trip was literally for you.