Welcome to another episode of Myth Busting with Vince and Trevairian. This week we tackle is non-metallic metal, or NMM, better than true metallic metal, or TMM. I think the common myth here is that, and this is especially true as you begin to learn how to paint and as you start growing and learning more about the art world and about miniature painting in general, is that non-metallic metal is a superior way, a superior technique over true metallic metal. Oh, I see, we're doing the hard-hitting ones right in the first season. But what does it mean in the painting world if something is better than something else? Because how are we going to measure that, right? Whenever we do something creative, it's something we want to do. If we were trying to do, say, the most realistic, then we would all be doing scale modeling and not miniature painting. Of course that is an option too, but I guess it would be half the fun if everyone just tried to recreate the same historically accurate or, you know, in the setting accurate type of thing if we were talking about science fiction, right? So right off the bat I would say you should be doing whatever you find more interesting and whatever you have the most fun with. Now that is easily said and ultimately there is different properties and different strengths and weaknesses to either of the techniques. So I think we can get into that also. Travarian's point is well taken here. If you look at scale models, they're absolute enthusiasts of true metallic metals. If you look at your average aircraft or something like that submitted at a scale model event, it's going to be a shiny true metallic metal polished bird. It's not going to be done in some kind of detailed non-metallic metal because it's meant to represent and look like that thing actually did. So in that case, the realism, whatever that means, is interpreted quite differently. So maybe that's where we start. I agree with you better is clearly a myth because that doesn't actually mean anything. But a lot of people have that in their head. So let's get down and talk about individually why you might like one over the other. I think it's interesting because the intuitive idea would be that metallic pigments are the more realistic choice because they reflect light. And if you turn it around or whatever you painted, if you turn that around, then the reflection follows you and it's going to be quote unquote correct from every angle. The strength of non-metallic metal that if you want to create something and you want to have a lot of control over it and you want to have control over where you place the highlights, then non-metallic metal is the way to go. There's always a bit of a critique point that non-metallic metal only looks good from one direction or one angle. And that painters that use non-metallic metal are only painting for the picture. And I'm quite torn on that myself because on one hand it is absolutely true that you can paint a perfect 3D miniature for a 2D picture. And where you can control exactly where the highlights go and everything else and especially the reflections. So from that one angle you basically create an illustration in 3D that you are going to take a picture of and then it's going to end up in 2D. And I know that there's a lot of people that paint like that. For example Michael Pisarski is very deliberate about that. If you ever did a workshop with him, he usually takes a figure and then decides on a viewing angle that the figure is going to end up with and then he does exactly the quote unquote correct light for that situation. On the other hand I disagree with that notion that there is only a way to paint non-metallic metal from one angle. I feel like you can very well produce a non-metallic metal that looks good from many different angles. So once again I think Treverian is exactly right here. You absolutely can have non-metallic that's working from multiple viewing angles. Here up on screen I have Darren Latham's miniature painting blog, I'll put this in the show notes as well in the description. But down here he talks about how he thinks about non-metallic metal and to me this is one of the all time great articles to help you understand the concept and how it can work from multiple angles and it gets right here how he thinks about the 4 light setup. And what this allows him to do is create as you can see multiple lights, secondary lights and reflected lighting sources that overall produce a more realistic image regardless of how you're viewing it and in fact throughout this article and indeed throughout all of the pictures he shares you can look at most of these images from multiple viewing angles and they'll continue to hold up and continue to seem to glint like metal even though they're done in that non-metallic style. Which brings us to an easy critique, the floor of true metallic metal when you're painting with true metal paints is it looks like metal, it's very hard to make metal paints not look like metal. But with non-metallic metal you have to hit a certain skill floor, you have to include the right amount of contrast or whatever, otherwise it just ends up looking like grey paint. Yeah I think that's where a large portion of the critique points or of the people that are saying I don't like non-metallic metal because it doesn't look realistic comes from because often there is people that try to paint non-metallic but don't really have the grasp as you said because they don't put in the right amount of contrast and so on and then it looks almost like a grey just stone and plastic and obviously those people are going to say I painted my army in non-metallic metal and then someone sees it and says oh but that non-metallic metal thing doesn't really look good. Whereas when you just put on a base color of metallics and added a wash then that instantly looks more credible I guess. I think that's exactly right. What we're pointing to here is that there is a lot more bad non-metallic metal out in the world than there is bad true metallic metal almost by necessity. So you have this weird bar that occurs with it and that's what I'm trying to put my finger on right where it goes from like so in true metallic metal the whole bar is it looks like metal and then if you know how to shade it properly and ink it properly and highlight it and you glaze in colors you get up to like really good looking metal at the top. You can get a really good effect out of true metallic. We'll come back to that in a second. But the bar on non-metallic looks very different. The spectrum there at the bottom is like doesn't look like metal at all up to like then you hit some minimum threshold okay looks like metal kind of right or maybe from limited angles or certain pieces or certain shapes up to like looks better than at the very tip top you've got looks better basically than you could achieve with true metallic metal because you have a much finer control over the exact paint the exact light but that's like this top very thin percentage that literally goes beyond anything you can achieve with true metals. What I'm thinking of here is the work of people like Karel Kaniyiv. When you look at a work like this what you see is that what the artist was able to achieve here is something you really couldn't replicate with true metallics because it's almost a canvas painting as the way the lights and the reflections are being captured in map paints. Yeah another thing that I like to say or like to reply when people ask which of the approaches is better is it true metallics or non-metallics then I always say you have to think about what you want to do say you're building a diorama and what is your ultimate goal here do you want the diorama to be placed somewhere where you just can see from one angle and so on which comes which goes back to the the whole non-metallic metal is more controllable and you can direct the view a bit better but I also want to say that you should be aware what mood you want to represent so if you wanted a bit more of a grittier version of your diorama then personally I think you're better off with true metallic metal because especially if you're going to put a lot of weathering on that can be tricky to do with non-metallic metal. It's not impossible and if you have a lot of knowledge about how paint behaves and when to apply which layer of paint then it can look great. What are the situations that demand or would be well aligned let me put it that way to the use of one technique versus the other? So let's start with non-metallic metal maybe. We already said controllability of your light situation. Let's drill into that one real quick controllability I agree with that. Do you think that that matters a great deal because this is what always comes up and if we don't address it we'll get called out for it. Does this come up and mean that non-metallics one of non-metallic metals better uses is something like competition or display painting so you can have that finer level of controllability? I'm not sure you would have to have a real good grasp about non-metallic metal to really pull off something that is going to elevate you over everyone else that paints non-metallic metal and true metallic metal. I'm not buying the whole you have to paint non-metallic metal to win a competition at the same time I don't buy you have to paint true metallic metals to win a Golden Demon. Both of these are not correct in my opinion. I think the other situation where non-metallic becomes really appealing where you want to capture it is when you want to have a lot of different reflected environmental hues be a very strong part of the piece metal paint is always going to feel pretty steely or pretty goldy or whatever the underlying metal you're using is and your ability to integrate colors into true metallic metal it can happen but eventually it will just look like a colored version of metal. That's a very good point so I like to compare that with using gloss varnish over matte varnish because when you're doing competition painting you kind of want to stay away from gloss varnish or anything that paints that become glossy because they create this artificial light this artificial reflection that you cannot control and when you're doing OSL and secondary reflections or ambient reflections like you said you want to show that you understand where it goes in your composition so here is my other place that I think non-metallic really sells well okay and that is anytime you have extremely crisp fresh especially steel okay because the cleaner that sort of thing the more you want to achieve what I mean by this is the more you're trying to achieve something like a chrome look or a polished metal or something like that the farther you're going into that full plate that's been freshly polished and shined it's not on the battlefield you know what I mean but especially steel because steel sort of has this kind of neutral flat mirror like tone that we associate when we're highly polished we associate with mirrors I think the more you're using going into that highly polished gold would also fall into this category when you got that crisp newness you want to capture non-metallic is a great way to capture that crisp newness and it makes perfect sense like you said you can show exactly that you understand how many reflections are in there and that you know something opposite it is going to influence the color but it's also going to be slightly reflected in and distorted and it becomes the perfect way to show how good you are and how much control you have over the brush because what you're doing is you're basically painting an illustration on top of that armor you're not painting an armor well I guess you are but you are painting an illustration of that armor in a certain environment let's talk about where true metallic metal works the best I've got a couple right off the gate I'm interested to get your take on him here's mine one almost any time you're doing an army painting project like you're painting for something that's going to be an army you play with I think true metallic metal is almost always the right choice yes simply because it's faster you and that goes back to something we mentioned if you try to take shortcuts with non-metallic metal it's not going to work and it's going to the weird and plasticky and stone like so you cannot take any shortcuts with non-metallic metal you can take certain shortcuts with metallics and they're still going to look good like the necrons that I painted a while ago I actually thought about that I could do a kill team at least with that approach in reasonable amount of time which usually I can because everything takes too long so that is a good way to use true metallics however that said you can still take an army that you just apply the basic true metallic to and take it to the next level in another step like you can paint these lights that are still reflecting or those shinier areas that you want to reflect on them so you can you know get them bell ready and then invest a lot more time if you want to say pimp your general or whatever I'll give you another one and you kind of mentioned it earlier where I think it just works better and that is extremely weathered metals anytime you have extremely weathered rust in rusty rotten twisted old junkyard metals I think just starting from a base of regular metal paint works better you often don't have much in the way of reflections it's usually more like some dull gray that just has a very slight shine to it maybe one or two very small scratches and reflection points where the sort of rust got cleared away because one piece hit another in the junkyard but for the most part it's more of an experiment in deep grays blacks browns oranges maroons the occasional yellow you know that kind of stuff ends up being I think better when the little bit of metal you can see still feels like dull real metal I agree and when you said that you can play around with scratches I think that's especially potent because when you look at that whole mess from one angle it's it can be a dull surface because the light is not directly going to be reflected in your eyes and then as you turn it around it adds another level of interest of information because when you turn it around suddenly that very small line that you painted is going to reflect light directly into your eyes and then you're going to see whoa okay there's there's additional scratches here where you know all that weathering got scraped away that's just an example for you can for something that you cannot properly do with non-metallic metal because that white line your total reflection is always going to be there so I wanted to pop in here and talk about another place where I feel true metallic really sells and that's on things like the skeleton of an Imperial Knight but really any big machine or engine part or something like this this is an Imperial Knight that I painted some time back and obviously you can tell this was done with true metallic metals and I feel on surfaces like this you know the interior skeleton of the Knight or the patterning around the edge of the armor plates or the engine of a scale model car or something like that true metallic metals just work better and the reason I believe that is because of the sheer number of surfaces and reflections that are caught here so all of this is reinforced with inks and shading and highlights that I did try to place but the metal paint does a lot of work for me as you can see here in the places where it's catching the individual reflections and the lights and as this thing moves around and changes and you look at it different angles each part is still gonna feel metal the idea that you would have to manually highlight the literal thousands of facets and surfaces and angle changes that this big machine has or that an engine has is crazy your if one little piece is out of place if one little highlight is wrong on an angle change your brain is going to subconsciously pick up on it whereas when you're working on something like this and you paint it in true metallic metal it's just going to feel a lot more realistic naturally because all of the facets the surfaces and the changes will naturally reflect the light so this is one of those situations where when you get to something this complex where there's that large number of surfaces the right answer is almost certainly true metallic metal so to sum it up I want to say that there is applications for both you should deliberately decide which fits the application that you have in mind the most like you said terrain obviously is going to always look better with metallics high-end competition painting where you want to show that you campaign these reflections from the surroundings and so on fine you should do that and then there's multiple in between steps and applications where one might be better fit might be a better fit than the other that said you could still say I don't want to do that I prefer something else over you know I prefer non-metallic metal in that situation over true metallic metal and that's fine it's your choice it's your world you should decide what you want to do do what is fun for you I think Trevarian ended on the perfect note there what we know is there is no better no non-metallic metal is not innately better in any way than true metallic metal it's of course absolute myth whether we're talking for competition or for your personal use the reality is these techniques might be aligned better to certain projects you're working on it's good to be intentional and it's good to think about the effect that you want and you want to capture how much time you want to spend and what you wanted to ultimately look like but in the end just as Trevarian said the important part is to paint in a way that you're gonna have fun with and if that means using some bright shiny chrome and get out that chrome paint and if that means putting on lots of layers and a hundred glazes to get the perfect non-metallic metal spread then that's the right choice too but there you go hope you enjoyed this episode of mythbusting as always look for the next episode which will be on Trevarian's channel remember these do go back and forth but you can always hit the playlist which has all of the episodes regardless of the channel right down below so as always thank you very much for watching I very much appreciate it we'll see you next time


Good afternoon everybody and welcome to our community chat for Thursday, June 4th. Want to welcome Angela Mills and Jennifer Moyestan to the conversation today two of our community participation officers as well as many other roles that they fulfill and Town Manager Paul Balkam, it is also joining us. My name is Brianna To ask questions during this live Q&A Please use the Q&A function within zoom or raise your hand and zoom If you're joining us from a telephone, I see some people in the room from a telephone Please press star nine to raise your hand and we will welcome you into the room to ask your question This webinar is being recorded. So please refrain from asking any personally identifying Health questions or anything like that Again for the people who just joined us. We have our community participation officers for Amherst Jennifer Moyestan and Angela Mills joining Paul Balkaman and I So before we get to Q&A Paul, do you have any general updates for our viewers? So two things what one is I Want to identify the Recognize a statement and the the council resolution that the council issued on Monday and the Recognize the death of Mr. Floyd and To just identify that this to me seems like a real change moment for a lot of people and I think that it's People being in the streets and everything that has created a new reflection on how we do our business and how we conduct our lives and how we interact with people so That's been really sort of dominating everything In my mind and in my in our my family's life in fact In the town and the business of the town, you know, we are moving into budget season Monday, we'll have their first public hearings for the one-month budget Which will take us through July and for the regional school district budget which which will for the full fiscal year so those will be two public hearings on Monday and then We will continue to progress through Presenting a capital improvement program for FY 21 and then the entire FY 21 count budget and that gets presented to the council on June 29th So there's a lot of upcoming things happening in the budget world We'll talk about other things as we move forward And for those interested in following along with budget We've been active actively updating that page on our website and our new finance director has been keeping that information up to date And that's Amherst and May dot gov slash budget so Jen and Angela anything you want to say before we launch into questions No Well, I'd like to just invite everyone will be having a virtual Juneteenth and so it'll be being aired on a CT or Amherst media So we welcome everyone for the upcoming times and on our socials as well as we'll do a reading of the Speed from Frederick Douglass on July 4th, July 5th for what is the 4th of July to sleep? Thank you, and when we leave is the 4th of July And we'll have all that information and links and how to join up on our community calendar. Is that right, Jen? Yes, absolutely great When is the Juneteenth event? June 19th at it'll we'll have a bell ringing ceremony to kick it off. So that will start here at town hall at 4 o'clock Great. Thank you for sharing that So I think one of the one of the things that we keep Advertising to folks and we're having these meetings is that Jen and Angela are always one of them is always staffing the town manager's office to take your calls to answer your emails and What kind of what kind of calls have you guys been getting lately? Like what kind of concerns or people are expressing? over the last couple of weeks so people definitely want to be outdoors and Several calls about whether they can pop into Puppers pond to swim we've had lots of questions about when playgrounds are going to open up and Obviously people would like to use the community pools. So those have been some of the most frequent phone calls And do we have any updates on on on those? The openings of any of those things Paul as far as you know Puffers pond for example I think I must have gotten at least 12 emails in the last 24 hours about being able to use it for swimming so Puffers pond is We're working on staffing Puffers pond. We will be implementing social distancing requirements at Puffers pond And that requires us to have staffing And we think that we will have the staffing in place probably by June 15th And that's our mission at least to try to get the proper staffing in place by then In the meantime, we will continue to have police patrols there on a regular basis If the weather is really good just to help encourage people to observe social distancing The pond is available for fishing for walking around People sometimes will go there for exercise, you know in the in the water. Those are all things that people do It's really the sort of congregating on the beach that we're trying to manage through And we know the weather's getting warm. It's going to it's warm today. It'll be warm in the future. So We know that it's a it's an attractive Feature and we want to maintain it of it making sure it's available to residents and a lot of non-residents use it as well so But we are going to have to dedicate some actual staff there to help make sure people understand what the rules are when they go When they go in so So for the other things swing pools, we're shooting to have those open as well We're you know, the DPW is doing the work that is needs to go into Preparing the pools every year in terms of painting and cleaning and the amount and things like that LSSE is moving forward with securing lifeguards swimming pools will be on a Modified basis. We still will always observe the guidance provided by the governor's office And so at this point, we're really not clear on what that is But our all indications are that we will have our swimming pools at least one swimming pool open on a modified schedule for the summer You know The other things we're working on sort of putting in a comprehensive list together for all of our summer activities For people that we will release probably monday And that will provide additional guidance for folks So sarah wants to know if staffing at puffers ponds Includes lifeguards No, that's a really good question. No, it does not include lifeguards. It's just about admission to the beach And managing behavior on the beach. It's uh, we we really I mean, I love puffers the way it is honestly and I love that it's sort of um rural and and sort of Free to people And if we were to implement lifeguards And we would probably have to implement ropes and have all kinds of rules And I don't think that's really where the town is and we have two other facilities that provide that In the two swimming pools So we're just talking about managing the beach space not about regulating the swimming areas And I imagine the release we put out on monday will include this but there have been a lot of questions about fireworks and any kind of independence day celebration and if everything is off for that or Yes, that's independent the fireworks the lsc sponsored fireworks and independence day events are going to be canceled for a number of reasons one is it's about having large groups get together but also That a lot of those work All that work depends on significant fundraising that lsc does every year and businesses aren't in a position to Be donating money to fireworks. It's something we'd love to be able to do but it's Holy inappropriate and you'll see almost every other community canceling their fireworks as well So I wondered if gen could tell us a little bit about how the community mask initiative came together because That was something that that you you kind of spearheaded initially and Could you tell everybody about how that came together? Oh Sure, I just I had a friend in ecolopes who was making masks for the senior center and we were just talking one day and Decided that this would be a great initiative to try and ensure that all residents of amherst have access to two masks It was just as simple as that and And how's it going successful? so far um So if you know and folks who need a mask, please give us a call or go to our website and sign up And and what's the demand like now? Are we do we have a good supply or are we still in need of donations and sewers? Where are we at right now? So we it started off a little bit slow and then it peaked really high And now we're starting to come down a little bit. Um, so now we're trying to Get enough children's masks to help support the Children who get masks of the school lunch program lunch through the school lunch program I think that's important because I know a lot of people have been making masks But they are not really one size fits all for children who were smaller, so It's a good point another big event that happened recently and I think Angela is it tomorrow graduation was the official graduation day? We tomorrow was was the official graduation day. We had um a great diploma ceremony last week Last wednesday the kids were socially distanced And the professional photographer did a fabulous job and we had terrific weather so My kids have their diplomas and tomorrow is the car parade Everyone's starting at their elementary school and then driving towards the high school for the graduation car parade and the video of graduation will be shown on Amherst media tomorrow at 6 p.m So this includes I'm sorry. This includes towns of the outlying towns because it's a regional school So leverant and palom and shoesbury kids will come you coming from there. Oh, that's really cool correct Are people encouraged to cheer them on along the way or is it more about the caravan? Cars will be decorated balloons will be out That's awesome. All right, we we just got another question that came in through the um the q&a in the room And it was stated at a previous chat that the senior center is closed for the rest of the year Could the space be made available to the school system? They need to spread out So we have you know, we obviously the school system has the school superintendent and his team have looked at every available option available to them And we've offered up whatever we need the challenge for them is that when they expand their footprint to different locations There's an incredible amount of costs that goes with it For instance, every location needs to have a registered nurse at the location And every location needs to have some kind of building supervisor So when they started looking at having these smaller buildings and we looked at a number of them that the town owned The actual cost became pretty substantial for them And and whether the actual educational value Was there it was another question and then there was also the meals piece of it that came with it So the existing buildings that we have Have everything there and the proper restrooms the right sized restrooms and things like that So while that space seems logical and we all thought about the same thing everybody thinks the same way I think and said but when you look into it you say that really wouldn't help that many kids to make it Worthy the kind of investment that would be needed. So Great. Thank you There's been a lot of talk lately and we've put out some information this week about Offering up outdoor dining as an option for some of our restaurants So could you talk a little bit about what that's going to look like and what that means? Sure. So so two things on that one is that the The town was ahead of the the curve and we were developing our we had developed our own zoning bylaw The council was really in favor of it. It had gone through the council was going through the public hearing process That's required for a zoning change, which was still move forward. It's the public hearing is June 10th It will then get referred to the council who was likely to pass it on June 15th And that encompasses a pretty broad range of retail activities, not just restaurants Monday the governor issued some guidelines for just restaurants and how they could expand in An override local zoning and so we were out since we were so far ahead of the game on this other thing We were out of the box the next morning the next day with Welcoming applications from our establishments who are interested in this On top of that we're looking at specific areas in downtown that we might want to proactively designate as dining areas and have the town invest in creating wider sidewalks by taking over parts of the street and things like that So there's a lot of work through the art inspection services department and through our dpw And working with the bid in the chamber and seeing how this this can work. And I think there's some interest I don't know five to ten restaurants have already expressed an interest in this So I think you'll see some of that downtown. It's kind of a time limited period. So that's why we have to act really fast on it because It's really just for the warmer wet. There's warmer weather The other thing that happened is that the town council Dedic has adjusted their policy to Designate the town manager to be able to utilize Public ways, which is what that's what a public sidewalk is or a street to accommodate this kind of activity So that means everything will get done in a matter of days as opposed to going through a meeting process with multiple boards So it's kind of exciting. Um, you know, I think you know, it's it's a business decision for the restaurants because they will have to invest and decide if they can Make their operations run With the reduced seating. It's a I think it's a pretty big challenge But we have some very entrepreneurial restaurants who are Ready to jump on it. So we're going to move as fast as we can In reopening downtown people um right now know that um Parking fees aren't being Um enforced. So what would that look like going forward are people as as restaurants reopen and businesses reopen and more people are in downtown How long will that continue? so right now we um we are not We didn't say you don't have to pay to park, but we're not enforcing that so there's there's a natural conclusion And we're not our parking enforcement officers are not writing tickets other than for if you park in a handicap Parking place or is loading zone someplace. You're not supposed to park Um instead they have been working with the senior center to help deliver meals and do other activities for the town. So And we will maintain that posture. We will review it around the 4th of july And then we haven't gone decided anything about parking downtown. So just it's a significant impact on the town So far this um fiscal year. We've lost well over 300 000 from lack of revenue from our transportation fund And so all the parking revenue the tickets and the fees that people pay go into a separate account called the Transportation fund and it can only be spent on the activities related to it and so the things that we pay out of it is we pay our PVTA assessment because we feel like it makes sense for parking fees to support public transportation We pay our fees for our shared electric bike system because we think that's a transportation thing that comes out of it and so there are a number of things that um That that come out of that that fund uh in addition to the people who support The parking lots and the parking kiosks and all the fees that go along with it. So having that fund down significantly is a real Major challenge for the town for next fiscal year actually Yeah, it's important to note that yeah So I just want to do a quick reminder to our attendees if you're on the phone with us Press star nine to raise your hand and ask your question. Raise your hand in the zoom app or type your question in the q&a So a question for Jen and Angela here As a community participation officer team What have been some of the challenges connecting with people in our community during this this pandemic? so for a while Many of our boards and committees were unable to meet um only decision-making boards and committees were meeting like planning board and zba and um We missed Kind of seeing people coming out of the building because town hall is still closed to the public so those connections and then also Helping people connect to all of that is available in the community. Um, I'm really impressed with all of our volunteers who have been You know sewing those masks for us. It is a labor of love I had no idea how long it took to make a mask until I watched one of my son's friends make one Via FaceTime and it is really a long process even for talented seamstresses so I'm impressed with the volunteers who have helped with Food initiatives and all of our volunteers who help with the senior center And it's nice to see people out doing things like that It's just um keep calling us. I mean we're here to try and connect you to what the community has available and we Thank you all so much for all of your tireless efforts. It's been great to see the community pull together in a very kind of organic way Jen you have anything to add? I know you you and your family do a lot of work with the Survival center and you've been there throughout all this lending extra hands You want to talk a little bit about what that experience has been like for you? So volunteering at the Amherst survival center is always Heartwarming, but it is even more now. There's a lot of volunteers And they're just expanding to outreach more and more because what we are seeing is that each day there's more and more need And food security becomes more of an issue to folks. So they will now be Having a mobile food pantry delivery at the boulders And they're going out to um other they're able to to reach out to other communities in the hampshire county as well Which is fantastic I suggest everybody whether it's during this pandemic or not take a couple of hours to go and volunteer and and have lunch They serve an excellent lunch as well And they're doing taking all the right precautions to be To social distance, which is really great A lot of folks again have been donating masks to the survival center So that the staff and the volunteers have them and then the the shoppers have them as well And I want to say, you know, just about angela mentioned with the boards and committees not being Not all of the meeting Initially and some of those coming back online now, but the town manager also recently put a call out for volunteers to fill Seats on multiple boards and committees Could you tell people could either of you tell people how folks can Express their interest in joining one of those boards or committees What the process is like Paul do you want to take this one or should I oh you should one of you guys should So we encourage you to visit the website amherstma.gov and head to the boards and committees page and at the very top You can fill out a community activity form, which we refer to here in town hall as a cif And on that form you can pick the things that interest you Um, there's also at the very top of the page a list of current vacancies, which has been recently updated so It is a great way to build this community that you live in and we can't do the work without you And so I encourage you to kind of see what's available and give me a call or give us a call We can all answer your questions about the time commitment and um, how often boards and committees meet and the wonderful thing right now is that a lot of these meetings are Recorded and then put up on the website so you can get a sense for the level of engagement and the topics that are covered Just by watching one of the one of the old meetings on video I think that's a it's a really important point because sometimes people say I want to give time But I don't know what where you need me and how can I best give you my time? So I think if you call the manager's office, you know, you'll always get jennifer angela and talk through about What your time availability is what your interests are Think you go through what the options are and sometimes it's a board and committee. Sometimes it's something else it you know beyond You know providing masks for people which is an incredible initiative Which I want to come back to in a second, but um, there's also other ways that you can help With you know delivering meals for the senior center and so a lot of that stuff you know, it sort of flows through the town manager's office and So people in the manager's office if you have a minute and you say I do have time I don't know what I can offer. Um, this is a good way to do it On the mask thing I went to ask jennifer about like you've we talked about getting them made. How are you doing with distribution and how What's the what's the response been when people with the distribution network network you've used? So the distribution has been Contactless, so we have a table out back behind town hall Where we've been putting the masks with washing instructions in a ziplock bag and taping that to the inside of the Bin, so um, we haven't really had any problems there. Everybody's gotten their masks and it's um Get a lot of positive feedback from the sewers You know some of the sewers kind of feel like they didn't know where to donate the masks too So it's kind of nice because this way they can donate to us and you're getting them out to everyone Like to say that you know another goal is to have them in all of town hall or town buildings Once the buildings open back up so that if you're at the jones library and you need a mask You can get one there or at the police station This bank center wherever it may be So did you get those washing instructions from angela? I saw the first batch of masks that she washed and put through the dryer We need to put a photo of that So we use the cdc guidelines um on their washing instructions and that's what we based our The masks on the washing of the masks on yeah, if you don't have one with the last masks You'll ask for fun to wash but if you have one that has bias tape ties or old t-shirt ties It's great to kind of pull them together and not them before you put them in the washer. Otherwise They like Just think 25 pairs of uh headphones all wrapped together Or shoelaces. Yeah, but so I just wanted to say something back to the boards and committees So if you're looking at the boards and committees and don't have a clear idea of what that board or committee is There are mission statements under each board and committee. So if you went to The human rights commission the mission statement is listed there on what it is that they actually do or what they're What the mission of the the board is so that's And and just quickly the the ones that we're Specifically seeking right now agricultural commission affordable housing cdbg council on aging disability access the new elementary school building committee lsse commission public art public shade tree But you don't have to wait for a specific vacancy. You can express interest at any time and uh jennifer and angela maintain A system to kind of get in touch with folks as vacancies become available too. So they do a lot of a lot of really good work managing that All right, wow, it's already we're already coming up to our Almost our 12 30 mark. I just want to give out one last call to the attendees in the room If you want to pop a question into the q&a via zoom, please do so now or raise your hand star nine from the phone We'd love to Hear from one of you live if you'd like um, let's see I think I think we kind of hit a lot of the questions that have been coming in over the last few days So while we give a chance for another question, are there any Things that you guys want to share that you didn't get asked today or that you want the community to be aware of No, I just want to say thanks again to everyone who's really stepped up and volunteered around town It's great to see people out Doing wonderful things for their neighbors. The mask initiative is Really warmed my heart. It's um, it's so nice to see people go out of their way for others It's it's a great place to live and i'm really thankful. So Thank you all Thanks, ang Jennifer Yeah, so I agree with angela, of course. Um, and I would like to also as well give my appreciation to all of those who have volunteered in the many different Um ways to volunteer throughout the town It's much appreciated and that is again. Yes the basis of community and we will angela brie and I will be back out You know trying to connect with you guys all as soon as possible Thank you. And I reiterate both of what you guys just said and I think everyone of us on this call Are lucky because we live and work In this community. So I think we're seeing both sides of Of you know, what's happening in the town and what's happening in the community And I think we're going to be looking for new ways to interact with folks As we move forward. So we are always welcome to ideas On our webpage amherstma.gov slash get involved is all of our information. There's a feedback button You can send us a quick note or an email or a call whichever way you feel comfortable If you have ideas about how we can Meet you where you're at and Help you be better connected with us Thanks for doing these. It's nice to be invited. So just my last thing is what a great team I mean, it's obvious to everybody, but this is a tremendous team and they work so well together and they're so community oriented Just thank you go all three of you for everything that you do Thank you. That's a pleasure to be a part of this team The last thing I'll say is for anybody who's following along with budget or is interested in in general For finance, we have a couple virtual cup of joe tomorrow morning at 8 a.m All of the information is on our homepage as well as our facebook and twitter We'll be having the new finance director. Sean mangano join us as well as our comptroller and Previous finance interim finance director sonia aldrich. So we'd love to invite you all to come in ask your questions about budget or otherwise And we will be back with another community chat next thursday at noon same same link same phone number Great. Thank you all. All right. Thank you so much. Have a nice day


So here's the reason that I chose to become a doctor. Growing up, it seemed like everybody in my immediate family, my mom, my dad, my brother had some kind of short-term or a long-term chronic illness. And so I always was in the hospital or in the clinic watching them get taken care of. And thankfully, while my health was okay, I was still able to go with them to the clinics, the hospitals, and I was able to see these care providers take care of my loved ones and help them return to the roles of the life that they truly contributed to, one, including being part of my family. And so when I made the decision, I was gonna go to medical school, to residency, and now as a full-time physician in medicine as a doctor, I get to contribute to this web of influence where I get to take care of one person and that one person can then return to society and contribute the way that they were intended to. And that is such a cool part about medicine. If you guys enjoy videos and content like this, make sure you hit that follow and subscribe to get more content just like this one.


This was seriously one of the greatest moments of my life. T-dub surprised us at Dunk Kept. If you don't know T-dub, he is a Dunk legend, a myth, someone I grew up watching before I even thought it was possible for me to dunk. Five, nine, flying? He's every dunker's favorite dunker. Ah! And so he throws me a lob, I catch it just wanting to make him proud. And he says one of the greatest lines of all time, I'll never forget.


I'm good to go, so yeah, let's just start talking. Okay, great. Hello, everybody. Thank you so much, apologies on the delayed start. We're doing some rearranging of bodies in space. But I want to welcome everyone to our panel today, our discussion about making room for deaf artists in the hearing industry. My name is Desdemona Chang. I am a freelance director based in Seattle. And with me is our illustrious panel, Rachel Grossman from Dog and Pony, Carla Granger, who's also an ensemble apprentice with Dog and Pony, DJ Korge with Deaf West Theater, Dr. Erin Kelstone with Cleveland Sign Stage, and Tyrone Giogano from Dog and Pony as well. So a little bit about what this panel is hoping to cover today and why I brought this together. I'm a hearing theater artist. And I didn't have a whole lot of connection to the deaf community until recently, where a couple of years ago, I co-directed a production that was half an ASL and half in spoken English. And what became very clear to me over the course of our process was the deep oral tradition that the theater has. And in the many ways that we unknowingly through our practice is our conventional, the way we kind of run the theater, the way we unknowingly exclude the deaf community. I'm talking about things like talking and headset during tech. It's really poorly lit backstage during tech, so you can't really sign and see anybody. So what I'm hoping to unpack a little today with our panelists are the ways that we've seen successful deaf and hearing collaborations, and what can we do to change our practicing models to make those more fruitful in the future. So I guess to begin, if I can have each of our panelists share a little bit about their theater, just to keep you a little quick, we have only 45 minutes today. Really quickly about your experience in the theater and how you got here, and some of, you know, maybe the challenges you face in the work that you do. Who wants to begin? Who wants to just start with Ty and come down this way? Sure. I'm Tyrone Giordano, and I've been involved in theater since 1999. I started at the arena stage and moved out to DC, moved out to California, moved back to DC, have worked with Dog and Pony DC. I'm not the first deaf artist involved with Dog and Pony DC, but we've definitely seen more and more collaboration since I began working within that community, but glad to be here. Thanks. Hello. I'm Erin. Kelston. Kelston from Rochester, New York, and I'm working at the Technical National Theater for the Deaf in New York. I worked about 42 years so far. Once I've been involved at the theater department since the 90s, and before I hadn't worked with the community theater, and I started acting when I was five, five and a half years old and been in theater ever since. I'm from Deaf West Theater in Los Angeles. I've been doing this for 25 years, well, not myself, but the company has been around for 25 years, and our goal is to bridge the deaf and hearing worlds together. My name is Kala. I just graduated from Gallaudet University as a theater major. I'm from Maine, but I've been settled here in D.C. and I've been involved with a number of different deaf productions. Just recently started with the Mosaic Theater and Dog & Pony as well, and my goal is from here on out to have a better collaboration with both deaf and hearing producers in the future. My name is Rachel Grossman. I'm one of three founders of Dog & Pony D.C., and I've had the pleasure of being a theater practitioner here in Washington, D.C. at a number of large regional theaters for the past 17 years, and I first met Ty on that same production of The Miracle Worker, as well as a number of other deaf, hard of hearing, and hearing artists that are signers and interpreters, and that was my first contact with the deaf community.  It definitely brought deaf culture into the forefront of the American theater. Parade for that. My first question goes to DJ as the artistic director and producer of that production, having both put it up at The Wallace in Beverly Hills and also in New York on Broadway. What are some of the successes and challenges you encountered when bringing a deaf production to a hearing presenting venue? And we can probably get more details but some of the highlights or... Well, Deaf West has been around for 25 years and they have developed the process to make sure that communication is accessible at every step of the way, whether or not we're in a small venue or a large venue. It's the same process. What would you like me to talk about? I guess I'm referring specifically to, on your production, did you have hearing and deaf technicians, only hearing technicians? I imagine when you went to Broadway, the crew was Union, for example. Did you have to spend extra time? Was the tech process longer? Because of communication, there's no needs. In Los Angeles, we did have deaf technicians. When we moved to New York, we did face some issues because they're very established theater. There was one woman who we had doing hair and makeup but we couldn't have that in our show so they were all hearing technicians. We also had to work with interpreters, backstage, interpreters for makeup and hair, stage management and they were also learning on the job as well. It wasn't a perfect solution but we were able to adapt to the setting. We did communicate with everyone that our primary goal is communication access. So if you need an interpreter, call an interpreter. Sometimes it worked out that two people could communicate by gesturing to one another or using smartphones but there are several different ways to solve that issue. And do you think the primary concern with that production was about just the language barrier? That's ideally, because of course I think that's something that we as hearing practitioners, very few of us actually know ASL. But beyond that, did you have access to all the backstage?  How did that all that? I'm trying to figure out how institutionally can theaters make backstage more friendly with regards to visibility or were all those things meant for you? I think it's mostly important to view it as a process. It needs to become easier for people that are working on the show to learn sign language as well. We have some stage management that didn't have any skills the first day, but by the end they became rather fluid in the language. So that's the number one requirement, the willingness. I think oftentimes during production, it happens often. First you envision the problem, and you see, recognize the issues. And then reach out, look at the different resources we have. Sometimes you face this issue and it's very important that everything starts with the design and the communication between the production people and everybody involved. And I will say that the key is having the right attitude. Right, right. Attitude is very important. And it's very important that everyone working together will benefit from this experience. We did have TVs, screens, placed in different locations, but it was very visible. And we do use both hearing and deaf people and every asset just to put this production together. So there's a total of nine schools all together, including RIT, and once everything grows and everybody communicates together and be able to work together. And working with the hearing community, we'll teach them little gestures and teach them some science. And once they start to be able to team up, work together, including using the TV screens. And after one, two, three days, everything started to work itself out. As long as you have the right heart and the right mindset. And also in regards to communication, there is a technical aspect as well. So we will have TV monitors in the dressing room that actually have captions. We will have a captioner that will say five minute call if that's what's happening on the headset. As well as on stage, we have cue lights. They're in the wings. And they're also set in on the balcony towards the back of the house so that the actors know what the cues are. There's two different adaptations for that in our show. Sometimes we do have enough time to production. I mean, very focused. I mean, it's important that we emphasize on time. But sometimes we have the- Cue with physical actions. Cue with physical actions. And so for lighting and sound and communication between the production and the crew. I mean, it's very important that everything remains visual. And in due to time, it's often a very big challenge to work out both languages and culture. It takes time to meld them all together. But in the end, we all make it work out. Calla, you had shared in one of the ASL pickup session yesterday that you are stage managing a show at Capital Fringe coming up. And I'm wondering, in the hearing community, we assume that the stage manager sits in the booth with the headset and calls cues on headset. How are you- I don't know. I actually don't even know where to start. How are you running the show visually? I mean, I'm assuming visually. Which is through a series of cue lights. Yeah. Yeah, well, so far, we've been adapted mostly cues to be visual. But with this specific production, it's interesting because with the language barriers, we have, well, for example, with two characters, one who only speaks English, one who only speaks Spanish. So, I mean, the play itself has language barriers within it. So it's really interesting that we're all learning as part of that development, like how we work together and how we interact. The director itself can interpret, is an interpreter, but there are times when the director isn't going to be there and it's gonna be me with two different hearing actors who don't know how to sign. And of course, they're picking up some as we go. But we also use our smartphones. We send out texts, emails. But most of the adaptations are physical. Sometimes after a remind, actors not to do change on their body up because then we'll miss a cue. And so far, that's been, our experience has just been adapting as we go and the process is going to be different. I mean, this is one of the smaller shows. If it were a larger cast, or if we had music incorporated, then it might be a different story. I think it depends on what technology we have available too. I mean, we're working at Gallaudet, so if we're working, we'd have that technology. But if we were working in another location that might have more advanced technology, that would be an interesting resource that we could take advantage of. What's most important is that we're open-minded and that we can collaborate and work together and find a way to communicate. That's really the key. Just additionally, I know that many of you are sitting there figuring out how in the world do I communicate with deaf people? Trust us, we know how to communicate with you. Just ask us, you know? We've been doing this all our lives, so let us take the lead and we will lead you through this process. You can trust us with that. Another tip that I think would be helpful is to have a deaf member of the production team or someone who is deaf from the beginning. Like, for example, with Howie. You brought Howie on as a co-director because you recognize that need from the beginning. You don't want to start getting into the production only then to realize that it's too late to bring someone in. So the most important thing is to take the step, the initiative. And I know it's more and more as I work with hearing and deaf companies together, it's not like you have a design and then you start adding people in. Really, you start adding people in from the beginning. You have the concept of deaf person there, a hearing person there, both perspectives at the table, starting from the beginning. And that's a great way to start that process. By adding it on later on, you always end up having some concerns and complaints. And some of the designers are like, wait, now you're ruining my original lighting design and now I have to move things around. And if you start from the first day with that initial production meeting, just the concept and thinking of how we might be able to make it all happen. It's a completely different and collaborative process. It ends up being a lot more positive and a lot more smooth. Again, that add-on concept makes it more difficult. I just wanted to add on to that, but basically, one example that I experienced before was when the light designer was hearing and they designed the lighting without even taking into consideration the cues that would be appropriate for me. And then later on, I had to adapt all of those cues. So it would have saved a lot of time if they'd worked with me in the beginning instead of having to do it after the fact. And going back and changing everything that they'd already set up, it was a waste of time. It ended up being a, we lost a half a day of tech just because of that. So I think that's important to keep in mind when you're trying to envision something that you incorporate that from the beginning. I want to touch on something that Ty brought up, this idea of hearing people being afraid to communicate with us and like, oh, we know how to trust us, the deaf folks know how to communicate with you. Something Rachel and I had discussed briefly at the ASL Pickup is this inherent discomfort or nervousness or bashfulness, whatever it is that makes us feel afraid to approach our deaf colleagues. I think Dog & Pony has done some wonderful work in sort of dissolving a little bit of that membrane. And I would love Rachel to share some of the techniques that Dog & Pony has. Yeah, I was going to say Dog & Pony has done a, Dog & Pony DC has done a wonderful job of being awkward and embarrassed. And I think it's, I think it's, it's fascinating listening to my fellow panelists talking about, you shouldn't just add, just add in. And because when Ty joined the performing ensemble of toast the show a few years ago, there was no intention of having a deaf performer in the show. And we were like, it's okay, we'll work it out. We'll figure it out. And I'm so glad that we figured it out but we're still in the process of figuring out what that means to work with deaf artists, especially in the type of work that Dog & Pony DC does, which is not necessarily typical mainstream theater for another time. I think, you know, there's so much packed into hearing privilege and into the autism that's built, that's oddism, not oddism. That's built into the dominant culture of our potentially our world. I think we can say that we really take for granted and when confronted with that and when we start, and I really speak from a hearing person's perspective and to all the hearing people in the room that we start taking that really for granted and start getting very nervous when we're confronted with, oh my gosh, I don't wanna embarrass myself and I don't wanna insult anyone but we start making it about ourselves. Ty's right, deaf people have been communicating within our culture for so long that I think that basic learning, that flexibility, that understanding what a visual culture, a visual gestural communication and language culture means. I mean, we have tried to look at how to take our own learning process and be very transparent with it and to share it as much as we possibly can with artists that we are interacting with and through this in our ensembles and then through in the outside world through our ASL Pickups program which is very young and new. I don't wanna turn it into something that it's not but I think just knowing that we can always asset share with one another and not always have to rely on our deaf colleagues. I mean, we have wonderful colleagues who are to my right which are the interpreter community who have been a wonderful resource to us as well throughout this journey who deserve lots of props. I don't know that I actually answered your question, I'm sorry, I just. Rachel, I do want to piggyback on what you were saying. Oh good. Thank you. Certainly is, oh, sorry, okay, yeah. So you were saying something to keep in mind that my appearance on the scene just being involved in Toast changed Dog & Pony DC entire community, the company itself changed and started paying attention to things, things that you think that's the way that we communicate, that's the way we process, that's what we do and talking over one another, interrupting one another and deaf people tend to be far more, pay far more attention to appropriate turn taking and it actually has been a benefit to their company and so there are a lot of advantages to bringing in deaf artists and assigning element to your production.  So it's time to sort of change that thinking. Think about where you are and if you're able to sort of change what you do and use more gestures and more facial expression and use your eyes more and look at stranger's eyes more and that may feel a little uncomfortable and it feels like, oh, it's not appropriate to do it and it certainly is different and Ty's right. It changes the company, it changes the feel of the group, it changes the dynamic and it changes it for the better. So you get more expressive actors and it's quite the benefit. Really you're actors, this is theater, this isn't radio, you should be used for this idea, right? Right. One thing that I'd like to add on to what Rachel was saying is the role of the interpreters in the process. She's right, interpreters are our allies and our friends but we can't rely on them wholly to be the leaders in the process. We need deaf people in that position and hearing people as well to lead the process and the interpreters will support that process, that is their role, to facilitate communication. So a lot of hearing people have the idea that interpreters are the person that you can go to to ask questions about sign language but that leads to other issues. Yes, precisely. Is it worth sharing those other issues? Quick, I don't know, I know it's a very long and complicated relationship between the hearing and the deaf and the interpreter being kind of the mediator of that but just a few points for those of us who will be encountering you and our interpreting staff here, a couple of maybe one or two or three bullet points just for us to know, rules of engagement. Okay, so for the ASL pickups, which is a sort of hybrid sign language game night for an hour at a bar, it is important that we hire deaf people to be our instructors because American Sign Language is the language and if anyone please correct me but that is a language from the deaf community and of deaf people and interpreters are an important interlocutor between the communication, facilitating the communication between someone who speaks another language and is from another community and the deaf community and the hearing community but I should be hiring someone who is representing and speaking that language to lead and facilitate and teach and I think that is where it becomes appropriate in that situation. I'm maybe not saying this correctly but so Kala, our colleague Teasha, our colleague Justin, they are all deaf and they are all the ones that are teaching the ASL pickups and it would not be, I don't believe it would be appropriate at all for me to be hiring a hearing person to be leading that program. When you need a deaf person, a basic rule is don't run away. Just stay, stay and interact, it will be okay. That's one rule of engagement. Not from the perspective of Deaf West but from the perspective of a hearing company. If you're casting actors, you can't be prepared for them to advocate for themselves if you are casting a deaf actor. They want to come and they want to work. They don't and shouldn't be expected to be their own advocates for access because they need to be focused on their work as an actor. So it's really important for the company to provide the support system. In our shows we have an ASL master that will coach the actor in the process of translation from English, from the English text to the performed ASL. They'll sit and watch the runs to make sure that it's an inclusive process. Yes, it's the same as AEA, the association with the union. I mean, it's the same equity, it's the same kind of process. We're like moths to the light. We like light. We like light. So you put us in the dark in the back and we try to scream but it won't help. So how does the tech process go when it's dark backstage anecdotes to share? Because I feel like that's something we often struggle with in the production I worked on was we're in tech, we're backstage and we were forced to have a stage manager who was hearing, so she was on headset with our union staff, but she was also signing. So we had her live streaming on FaceTime with, we had two ASMs, one hearing, one deaf and she would be calling Maki on headset with the hearing ASM and then also signalling on FaceTime with the deaf ASM backstage. But it was always so dark and I honestly, I'm stumped by this one. I don't know how to facilitate better communication when it's pitch black backstage for the technicians or actors, and I don't know if that's something you live with as part of the theater process or the tech process. I don't know what your thoughts are and certainly we want to fix this today, obviously. At Deaf West, we have a visual management system. We use monitors for communication, but nowadays people will use their iMessages on their smartphones to communicate with one another. It's been working for us and it's convenient solution. Yeah, same here, yeah. We have an old technology, just a blue light in the back and a specific area in the back where we can see with that blue light and there's a person responsible for queuing actors or queuing some of the crew members, queuing entrances.  It's fairly simple, it's not very hard. And the number one thing is just to have an open attitude right from the beginning. Yeah, it doesn't cost much money involved in those changes. Well, the interpreters are expensive. Yeah, they could be a little pricey, but it's really just the one thing, really. Everyone has a smartphone in the workshop. They talked about 95% of the people having smartphones these days, so it's an easy technology that you could use. And using something visual, visual rather, that's important in queuing people and really smart, cheap, human interaction is all it is. Yeah, and you could build, just let me piggyback and expand on that just a bit. When we talk about this excessive idea, just during system, this awkward kind of thing, you're trying to come up with that and I'm like, well, we just signed to one another, but it's just something to think about in the future. It would be an advantage to you, to all of you and your companies to learn some sign, just to prep, to arrive, to be prepared when you have deaf artists entering your company. I agree. When we have two hearing stage managers, they will start to sign to each other to communicate with one another, even though they're both hearing. Yeah, that's something I also learned really quickly too is that even though we had a number of cast members who were hearing, that we made ASL the primary language in the room, so that we actually spoke very little, that even hearing people would sign to each other so that information was being conveyed across the board all the time. And that was challenging and worrying at the same time. I actually have a question for Dr. Calstone. As an educator, what can teaching artists impart onto the next generation of hearing leaders, performers, producers who are coming up and who are preparing? I mean, I feel like it's happening, right? I'm excited to see more collaboration between deaf and hearing theaters, but what can the new generation of hearing artists, what can we learn or know? Well, I think what's happening now is that you've got people who are meeting us sort of after school, after trainings, after their sort of initial exposure to workshops and trainings and the like. And really what needs to happen is that in their training, they're being introduced to what it really means to have these different types of individuals show up as a part of their process and a part of their work. And not something that happens after the training experience, but really in the middle of the process itself. Designing lights, designing sets, part of the acting process at the same time, working with these individuals, working with deaf individuals. And instead of sort of afterward when it's hard to sort of go back and have that be part of the learning experience. So when you're learning theater and you're working with a diverse cast and crew, deaf people are a different type of that diverse network. And it's important to have access to them for early onset. And another thing that I'll add on to what Dr. Calstone was saying, we also have technicians as well and designers, people that are very enthusiastic to get involved, but don't have many opportunities to do so. So it's really an important thing to invest from the beginning to have that accessibility ready and be considerate of potential deaf artists being involved. And now it's very, very hard for deaf artists to get into those circles, those special schools. There's several barriers that are very difficult. It doesn't matter that these are incredibly talented, unique individuals. They're met with requirements, admission requirements, and things like that that create additional barriers. So it really would help a lot in agreeing with what DJ said about access and having some form of certification or something that would help the work and help artists get in. I think we have maybe like 10 minutes or so. If there are any questions for our panel? All right, no? Oh, there's one person with a question. Yeah? Yeah. Hello, I'm Clara Geron from London in the UK, and I run a program called Unlimited, which is a fund for arts by disabled artists. And I had questions following on from the place of education. Actually, so for that, I just wanted to mention that there's a new degree in Scotland that's in BSL performance, British Sign Language Performance, which is doing really well. It's been a couple of years and it's really exciting. I don't know too much about it, but it might be something interesting to look at. I'm interested in how your work, the work that you do, whether it's inclusive, learning deaf and hearing people or not, is received. And by audiences, what groups do you reach? Who comes to see the work? By the sector, what barriers are there? Does the work reach the mainstream and what kind of work reach the mainstream and why? But also by critics. I just like to know a bit more of how the work is received. I'll speak to that. I'll say for Deaf West, as I said, they've been around for 25 years and they have an audience. They've developed an audience. Who knows and comes to expect American Sign Language and English blended together in a unique way? We have a variety of approaches and people are interested in seeing that, our innovative ways with every production to include deaf and hearing artists together. And that is part of our process. We can't just have the one production. We have to continue to grow our audience and keep them coming back. Often with new audiences, their first question is, will I be able to understand what's happening? And so with hearing and deaf actors blended into the same performance, you've got both languages happening at the same time. Yeah, you said you were from London, is that correct? Yeah, it's that day first. Think about the different parts of Europe and Asia and deaf theaters sometimes they don't necessarily use sign language like we would use it. We have a different style of use of language and sometimes you might ask the question, wow, why are you signing so much? It seems like a lot of dialogue. It can be more physical and more gestural in other countries and that's their solution for inviting diverse audience. Into the experience. And there's a cultural perspective as to how theater is. It's not just deaf theater, there's different types. There's styles and different issues that come up at the time. In general, you can expect to show up at a theater where you have a deaf actor or deaf themes and you will have access as a hearing person. We on the other hand as deaf patrons don't always have the same luxury. So keep that in mind. Just a little food for thought. We did marketing research for Spring Awakening on Broadway and we realized that the number one reason that people come to see the show is to see American Sign Language. So. It is, I would say, we're very new to producing work that is interpreted and the work when we have deaf actors, the two productions that we've done that have deaf actors in them, one we've done multiple productions or multiple runs of. Do you know, we have to be building the relationship that we are a theater that can be trusted that the work is interesting, let alone that we, again, don't do your typical shows so then there's that. But certainly it's about building the trust and reputation and being authentic, being present, demonstrating that we as a company are also in it for the long haul and it's part of our artistic mission is certainly important and that we're providing quality and open access to the production as a whole. But at this point, the shows have also, I mean, for us, we're not necessarily exploring deaf themes in the work. I don't wanna, like I don't wanna put you on the spot, Ty, but it was like when we did, I'm gonna start talking about toast and you can say something or not. When Ty came into toast, like we deliberately, we didn't market that there was a deaf artist in there, which he and I had a discussion about whether we should that, should have or not. We certainly said all the performances that he was in, we were like, these are all interpreted, but didn't say why. And so there was this interesting occurrence when he would start the show, he was the first person to speak in the show, his character was. And so there was this like what's happening moment. And so our deaf audiences were quite small for that first iteration. It increased the second time and it continues to sort of increase in our relationship with the deaf community has continued to increase over time. But you felt you were sort of refreshing for you to not be in a role that was about being deaf. Yes, you wanna talk about that? No, you're right, no, no, you're exactly right. It was so nice to show up and not have to justify or explain myself to just fall into the role and do what I do. And the audience at first seemed hesitant, but then just clicked and there weren't any issues. It's not difficult, it's not difficult. Thank you. We have one question in the back and then one here. This is tricky, I don't know if we're gonna be able to pick up the question.  So the question was for Kala, our deaf stage manager, whether or not she was able to earn her respect because of her work or because she is deaf and whether that hinders her ability to do her work? Well, to be honest at first, it was always, it was a little bit strange. You know, there was that fear of course in having to overcome that fear of interacting people, but once I did that, my work ethic showed itself.  If I didn't show up on time, if I skipped out and I wasn't as productive, then of course they would look at me that way, but I don't think it was about my deafness. I think my work speaks for itself. And the theater is a team. I mean, if there wasn't that kind of teamwork or collaboration, it would fall apart. It's in everyone's best interest to work together. One more question? Yeah, so my name is Fader Scott and I was a dramaturg on I Was Most Alive with You at Huntington Theater Company. And we decided before every performance, in case you don't know what that is, it was a show in ASL as well as spoken English. We decided before every single performance to have a, this is how you watch the show. And that was something that was done in both languages. And I just wanted to hear your thoughts about that, especially going back to the comment that was said earlier. Like do you think that, yeah, what are your thoughts? So the question around whether or not audiences need priming? Yeah, yes. To go experience a show that's by the audience. But I wonder if, what are the benefits of that? What does, are we putting a crutch on hearing audiences by doing that? Or is this helpful or, I'm sure it's super open and it's fun. Education is a big part of how we work with our audience. With the production of Spring Awakening, there was one couple that came up to me after one show. They came up to praise the show, said it was very wonderful how we mix both languages. But why did we have so much language? Some languages. So we thought that, they thought rather that it was just some sort of choreography. And that it wasn't necessarily about accessibility. And all the considerations of that, thinking that the audience is sitting there for two hours watching this entire show and thinking that it's just complicated choreography and not actual language. I remember one time I had an old man come up to me at intermission and he said, I'm a subscriber. And I'd like to ask you to tell them to stop signing because it's bothering me. And I don't like it. I don't like all that hand movement thing. Can't take it. So it's education, right? You have to explain to people. He was a little grouchy, but so it goes. It's a long process. You have to do it before the show. You'll have signs saying that this is a signed show. You'll have inserts in the program. You can host workshops, talk backs, all of those sorts of things. That's what we do best. So yes, it's a good thing. Yes, people. I mean, you could make an artistic choice not to. Certainly. That's entirely your decision. Yeah. Because I'm not disagreeing, obviously. I'm not disagreeing, but I'm always gonna be in a questionable place of what are we spoon feeding? Our audiences. And that's not what I think my fellow panelists are talking about at all. I think I'm supporting everything that they're saying, or I'd support everything that they're saying, but I think there's a real question about what are we trying to ease and spoon feed and where are we trying to educate and how might we learn, how might we take, I have no idea what the, I mean, I know the show, but I don't know what the Huntington was doing. So what are we allowing this as a teachable moment about deaf culture? What are we doing this as a teachable moment about different types of sign languages? Because I also know that the deaf characters must be from different regions of the world, different racial backgrounds. I think there's so much specificity that could come into that, which is so exciting, like that opportunity, instead of just like, this is the ASL alphabet, which is also important, but you're, yeah, yes, Rachel. I mean, in terms of dog and pony DC with our work, we are always building in some sort of invitation, a way that people can access our work. And we design the shows, and you can certainly design your shows to be however and whatever you want. Do you want an educational component? You can make an artistic choice not to, I mean, right, we're, it's an open game, right? And we, of course, will be watching to see what you do and if they work, if it works or it doesn't. It really becomes easier with every production that you do in sign language. The barriers will slowly disintegrate. But the first is always the hardest. I'm curious, any of the panelists can speak to experiences of watching a mixed audience respond to a show. I remember I had this experience in Seattle where we were doing the show, and I mean, it was literally half-deaf, half-hearing, and just even watching the pre-show experience of these two very different demographics come together for a singular, which was kind of really thrilling and a little strange and unnerving and very exciting. I was wondering if you had anything to share in that regard as performers and producers. I don't have one specific story, but I know that sometimes we have ASL workshops, and so we'll teach people some basic sign language that don't know any coming in. And then once they come and watch the production, they're able to recognize certain signs, and it's a really thrilling experience for them.  I think sometimes it also raises the expectation. For example, in our productions, we have students, performers who are deaf and hearing. And often after the show is complete, and the parents have come to see the show, of course, and they'll come up and they'll say, I didn't realize that my daughter could do that, or I didn't realize that my son could do that. So where their expectations might have been lower, they end up getting a huge lesson of their own, and it's a mixed audience, and they thought, ooh, I thought it would be at some level, but it ends up being at a higher level, and a better level. And it changes people's perspective. Yeah, so much of the work that I see that's happening, it's actually about, on top of making the art and collaborating, it's about encountering, that moment of encounter of an entire culture that is not visible in mainstream. So that's something I really appreciate hearing you guys talk about. We have a tiny bit of time left. Any last thoughts or questions before we go off to our next sessions? I have a question about open captioning versus signing. And if audiences generally have expressed a preference for one or the other, I know there's emerging technologies for open captioning. There's an app that's in the works called, things called caption point, I think, that uses smartphones, for instance, and theater broadcasts the captioning to the smartphone. So I'm just curious if there's a preference or if that's been discussed at all. The question was about open captioning versus signing, if there's a preference. Yeah, both. Both. Well, that's another discussion. That's a separate discussion. But, really, the more the better. There are deaf people who love sign language and deaf people who love caption, so it's good to have a choice. And remember, many people who maybe don't hear well don't know sign. And so the caption is really particularly important and worth it for them. And so they wouldn't want more captions. And right, they have the smartphone technology that they would look at it. You know, it kind of makes me think about listening to the radio. So really, they're focused so much on their phone that they're missing the entire show, which is the point of the evening. And so it'd be great to have it designed into the show. Like at Spring Awakenings, for example, where you saw text that was projected onto the set and that was a very effective way. But there's diversity in the deaf community, of course, and there's different audiences with different needs. And that can be a big challenge between signing and voicing and captioning and the like. If you were deafblind, for example, then you'd be having somebody, an interpreter signing into your hand, for example. So it can be a challenge to figure out appropriate communication for your audiences, but worth it. Oh, I just wanted to emphasize that I think it's a really important point that he made that you design it into the show itself in a number of different ways so that people can experience all of them, depending on the kind of show you have, whether it's a large cast, if it's dialogue-based, if it's a musical. It's just important to have a variety of experiences. And whether you have the interpreter and captioning, when you have the interpreter or the captioning separate from what's happening on the show, then it feels like as a deaf audience member that I'm just reading a script. I create this distance from the show when I have to do that. And so it's much nicer when you can actually incorporate it into the show itself. And really right now, technology as such, we're not there quite yet. But I would say the next step for accessibility will be sort of an augmented reality where the captions and the interpreters maybe perhaps could be projected within the screen. You're not going to have to look at one screen and then jump your head back to look on the screen here. I mean, it might be able to actually follow the action and the dialogue on the stage. Yeah, tech directors, we're working, we're tech designers, we're working with them. We're hoping that's going to be the new thing. And thank you for that. And that's the kind of things that we talk about in design school. Great. All right, I got the key. I want to thank you, I don't need any. And thank you to our panelists. Thank you so much. We'll be back in a minute. Woo! I don't know what. Let's show them.