I want to thank you, Joe Buchwald, for being here in part of the Haydash Ferry Oral History Project. Joe Buchwald is the father of Marty Ballin, as well as the early manager of Jefferson Airplane. I'd love to ask you where you were born. Where did you come from?  Well, I was born in Cincinnati, Ohio, September the 30th, 1917. My father is from a country that's no more called Galicia, part of Poland now. And my mother was from Romania. And all together there were seven children. What was your mother and father's name? My father's name was Samuel, and my mother's name was Celia. And your brothers and sisters? My one brother was named Paris. My older sister, to be truthful with you, I've forgotten her name. Did you have a nickname? I really haven't seen her in many, many, many, many years. But my one brother was named Simon, my other brother was named Isaac, and my sister was named Rose. Beautiful, beautiful. It tells me a lot about you. Where were you born? In Cleveland? And what could you tell me about your parents? Do you think they influenced you in any way, European upbringing? Well, my dad first came to this country when he was nine years old. When he was 18, he went back to Europe and put two years into the German army, which was required. After his two years in the German army, he came back to America. My mother came here when she was 18, and they both were in the needle trades. In those days, you know, you just didn't go out to nightclubs or things like that. You were introduced by people who thought maybe you'd make a pair or make a couple, and that's how they met. That's right. I can fiddler on the roof. The matchmaker, you know, kind of thing. If there was anything you could say about your parents, what would you say? Well, my mother was a very hardworking person. She had no education. She couldn't read or write. But she had a lot of street smarts. My father was well educated. He spoke about seven different languages, and he was very successful in the needle trades. Then you yourself, you got married at some point? Yeah, I got married after I turned 19. In Cleveland? No, I got married in Cumberton, Kentucky. No, I take it back. Newport, Kentucky. Because you couldn't get married in Ohio unless you were 21. But you could go over to Newport and rely about your age, and there was no problem. What was your wife's name? My wife's name was Catherine Eugenia Edmonds. And I think he said you had a picture of your wife? Yeah, I have a picture here. How did you guys meet? I had come back from New York City, and there was a place that I used to hang out called Grand Park. She happened to be working there, and I went into the park, and I happened to notice her. And I'd ask her just to make conversation if she'd seen my little brother. Naturally, she hadn't seen my little brother. And I walked away, and I got up enough nerve to ask her out. Three months later, we were married. Amazing. Better in July, we were married in October. How many years were you married? Four months short, it was 67 years. Oh my goodness, oh my goodness. If you had to say anything about her, what would you say? Well, she was very loyal. She was well educated. Prior to her passing away, she was the author of two books, one called Tilly, one called Short Stories. I have numerous other books that she's written, which I haven't sent to any publishers. It's a future. And she was a great mother. She was really a great mother, and she was a great storyteller. Amazing. When did she pass on? She died June the 3rd, 2003. Well, we miss her, and I feel her presence with us right now. The two of you had some children? Yeah, I had a boy, and I had a girl. My girl was the oldest by three years. And what was her name? Her name was Marilyn Jones.  And a boy was named Martin Jarrell. Martin Jarrell. Where were the children born? The children were born in Cincinnati, Ohio. And then at some point, you came out to San Francisco. I came out to San Francisco after I was discharged from the Navy in 1946. Actually, I first came out here in 1944. I was in the Navy at that time. And I went overseas, and I was discharged January 46. And then we spent about a year in Cincinnati, Ohio. We sold everything and came out here in 1947. Your two children, do you remember approximately what year they were born? Yeah. Joan was born October the 16th, 1938. She was 66 when she passed away. And Marty was born January the 30th, 1942. Do you have any pictures with you of your family? Yeah. One by one, and you tell us who they are. Yeah. This is a picture of Marty and his young daughter, Delaney. So Martin became Marty at a certain point. Yeah. Was he called Martin through school? What? Was Marty called Marty through school? Was that a nickname from his friends? Oh, no, no. In our family, every one of the males was called Buck by our friends. So to this day, I call Marty Buck when I talk to him. Wonderful.  Okay. And then this here is a picture of a girl in the middle is my daughter. And the one on my right is my granddaughter, her daughter. And the one on the left is my great granddaughter, Victoria. And then there's a picture of my grandson who's in the film industry. He's an assistant director of many movies. This is Scott Benton. He's named Scott Benton. Yeah. And this is a better picture of my great granddaughter, Victoria. She's going to be nine. Not only a daughter, but you've earned the privilege to be a great. And I have two other granddaughters. I have one granddaughter who's 45 and I have a granddaughter who's 41, but I don't have a picture of them. What's their names? One is Bonnie Sue. She lives in New York City. And the other one is Jennifer Ann. And she lives in Oakland. How many total grandchildren? I have four granddaughters, one great granddaughter and one grandson. Amazing. When your children were young, was it hard? Did you have hard times raising the kids? Was it, was everything there? Did you have to work really hard for the days? Well, I had to work hard because I didn't have really a skill. I didn't have a profession. And so until I really learned to trade, yeah, I worked very hard. As a matter of fact, to give them what I thought they should have, I worked three different jobs. What jobs? I worked in the printing business, lithography. I attended Bar and the bottling alley at night and I worked in an auto parts store. Wow. Any of these jobs in San Francisco? They were all in San Francisco. Yeah. Anything in the Haydashbury? Did you ever do any work in the Haydashbury other than working with the band? No, I didn't work any place in the Haydashbury. But in San Francisco. And the date you arrived in San Francisco was around 1964? No, we came here in 1947. You came here in 1947? 1947, August of 1947. And where did you land? What part of? Well, we got here late at night. And you know the view on top of the hill on Market Street? Well, that's where we parked and slept in a car. And then the next day we headed downtown and parked and took a room at the Gordon Hotel. Wow, what a long road. And then we stayed at the Gordon Hotel and I heard about two rooms up on Bush Street and we stayed at those two rooms for a while and then I heard because I was a veteran that I could get in public housing in Richmond. And so I went over there and I got a three-bedroom flat in public housing. Were you just out of the military? Well, I was out of the military. It was a little over a year, sure. So when did you go in the military? I went in in June 1944 and I was discharged in January 1946. Which part of the military? The Navy. I spent all my time overseas. Wow. I was curious, what was the world situation at that time? Were we at war? Well, we were at war. We were trying to defeat fascism. Exactly. Which was going on throughout Europe and throughout Asia. Do you belong to any veterans organizations now? No. I never joined any of the veterans organizations for the simple reason that at that time after the war they required a loyalty oath and I always refuse to sign a loyalty oath. What was the loyalty oath? The loyalty oath that you didn't belong to any communist organization or you weren't a communist. It wanted to be a free thing. You didn't leave me overthrow of the government. What was your reason for not signing? What was my reason for not? Well, I didn't believe in that. Exactly. So you could be free. You could be a free thinker. I believe that you should be entitled to enjoying any organization you want to join. Exactly. And as long as it's not an organization that intends to overthrow the government by force and violence. Exactly. Would you recommend young people to join the service today? No. I kept my son out of the Vietnam War. I made him a conscientious objector. Exactly. So he wouldn't go based on my own experiences. What did you do after the military in the next few years after that? After that I went back into the orthography. I went back into the orthography and I became a skilled pressman. Wow. So, you know, I learned to trade so I could make more money. When you were racing, you then moved to the Hade Ashbury? We moved into the Hade on Central in the early fifties. And how old were the children around then? Let's see. I would say Marty was about ten and Joan was about fifteen. I mean thirteen. So he's the younger of the two. Did either of the kids, as they were going up in those years, show you any characteristics and traits of talent? Well, yes. My daughter played the piano and tapped the anus. And she was very good at it. And Marty, from the time he was five years old, used to entertain us with his magic tricks and his singing and his dancing. One thing Marty liked to do, he liked to... In those days his mother used to go to the Episcopal Church and Marty used to love to sing in a choir. And during the holidays he used to love to go out and sing all the carols. Where do you think they got this musical? Where did it come from? Well, I don't know. My father was a violinist. He played the violin.  So maybe they got their talent there. I have no idea. You were the backbone. I can't read a note. I don't play any instruments. I know that feeling, yes. I know that feeling. So then you moved from Central to where? Well, I moved from Central to a place on Anza. And that was about what year? Oh my... I really don't remember the year. But I know it's before she graduated from high school. My daughter. What year and what inspired you to move to the Haydashbury area? Well, a friend of mine lived there on Central on the second floor. And the first floor was empty. And I wanted to get back to San Francisco from the housing project. Right. And so I took that flat. That was the reason for that. And when Marty was about how old at that point? A teenager? No, I would say it was about ten then. Yeah, I think it was about ten. And then when did you move? I believe your house on Belvedere? On Belvedere, my daughter first had the house. And then she got involved. She has a PhD in education. She got involved with Stanford doing these different projects, teaching teachers how to teach and teaching students how to learn. And she did a lot of traveling. And so I just took over the house and moved into it. Super. And what was that about? Gosh, I've been there what, 16, 17 years? Wow. So that's where you're presently... We were talking about 1988 or something like that. That's where you're presently living on Belvedere? What's that? That's where you're presently living? Yeah. So you were probably living on Central, am I correct when you started coming to the Haydash Theater? Well, when I lived on Central, you know, there was one great deli right around the corner where everybody used to go to and charge their groceries if you didn't have cash. There were a lot of empty stores. Those were the days when the neighborhood was...  Right. So you used to go there once a week. What happened at the straight theater when you would go? You see movies. So it was a movie house, right? Yeah, it was a very good cheap at that time, very reasonable. Movie house, and they advertised what was we going to be playing and once a week they showed the movies? Yeah. And what day do you remember? The week? No, I don't recall. No, what days? And your whole family used to go? Yeah, the whole family. Even outing, reasonable. Yeah, we were very close. We did everything together. Were you involved at all when your children became serious about their music? Did your daughter ever become serious? No, my daughter never became serious about music or dancing. She became serious about education. She was very serious about education and trying to make things better for teachers, trying to make things better for students. And then children. And that was her career. Yes, and Marty? Marty became interested in music and dancing and a friend of his, I don't know if you ever remember the theater and the round. Sure. Down on South Van Ness, across from the, I forget the name of the fast food place. The friend of Marty's went down there. Marty was about 16 at the time, I think. And he told Marty he was going down to try out for a part in the theater and round. So Marty says, I'll go with you. And so... What year was this about, do you remember? Well, let's see. I would say about 1958. Okay. And so Marty went down there and they asked him to try out. And he was in quite a few things down there. He was in Guys and Dolls. He was in some Shakespeare stuff. And that's where we met Bill Graham. Bill Graham played Big Julian, Guys and Dolls. That's right, he did. And Marty did West Side Story there. So was Marty in the same performance with Bill? Yeah, he was in Guys and Dolls. I can't forget what Marty was doing. But like I say, that's when we met Bill. A lot of people don't realize that performers in music have other sides to them. Like Bill Graham, the promoter, was also an actor. Right, right. Guys and Dolls, Apocalypse Now, Bugsy, The Cotton Club, and many others. Very interesting. So that's when Marty met Bill. And did a musical relationship start at all? The musical relationship didn't start until it opened up to Fillmore. That's it. Yeah. In 1965. So he was acting at that point. And I'm sure you were involved in bringing him or watching his performances and things like that. Yeah, I was always there for Marty. I was always involved in everything he ever did. And I'm sure you still are. I know that you still are. When did it turn at all where he can showcase his musical instrument? And did he join the band? Did he ever play on his own? Yeah, Marty during the folk area played with a group known as the San Francisco Town Criers. There were three fellows and a girl. The first time they played was a little bar on Sutter Street. They got as far as playing at the MAPES Hotel in Reno. And then the folk scene went into the rock and roll scene, you know? Right. And Marty used to go to the drinking gore. That's where he met Paul. And he asked Paul if he'd like to, you know, form and organize a band with him and do rock and roll. Where was that place located? The drinking gore was down on Union Street. Union Street, okay. Do you think it's still there? Yeah, I used to go there all the time. And then so now Marty and Paul have a relationship. Did they play together? No, they had a relationship. They found Yorma. Yorma brought in Jack. Do you know how they met them? I don't know how Sig got involved. And then they had this drummer who they had to let go because they all had their hair grown long and he refused to have long hair. So they let him go. So what were the band members' full names at this point? At this point, well, there was Marty Ballin, Paul Cantor, Yorma Kauffman, Jack Cassidy, Sig Anderson, and Skip Spence became the drummer. Bless this whole band. And then you had Sidney as a singer, Anderson. Yeah. Exactly. So what were some of the shows and who was getting their bookings? Who was doing their managing? Who was helping them? Well, the fellow that saw them at the Matrix became their manager. But prior to that, no one was booked. Was that Matthew Cage? Yeah, Matthew Cage. And prior to that, no one was really managing them. How did they get the name? How did they get the name? Yeah. Did you, your view? They claim that they took the name Jefferson from some old blues guy and the airplane from a dog. So I'm really sure. They'll have to ask Marty that. So they started playing shows at the Matrix? Well, prior to that, there was a group who formed the Family Dog. They hired the Jefferson airplane for their first show at the Longshore Hall. Weren't they also the first show at the Film Auditorium? Yeah, yeah. And Family Dog wanted to make up a poster. And so they told Marty, they said, we'd like to make a poster, but we don't know where to go to have it printed.  Because he's in that business. So Kelly did the first poster on my table. And if anybody has one of those black and white posters, I mean, I never took any in those days. If anyone has one of those posters, those posters are worth over $10,000 each. Ten-cent piece of paper. But they had no money, and they came and saw me, and so we made a deal. I'd give them $1,017 by 22 black and whites, and then I'd come to the show, stand outside the box office, and the first hundred dollars was mine. That's all I charged them for a thousand posters. That's how we played it in those days. Exactly. Because nobody had any money. And the business was being formed as... And then what happened, the way the matrix got formed, Marty had met some stockbrokers, three guys who were in the brokerage business, and they were interested in forming a club and giving Marty a piece of the action. And so they found this place, let's see, I think it's Chestnut, next to the Pierce Annex, and they opened up a club called The Matrix. Right now, it's right off of Lombard? Yeah, right off of Union there and so more. Exactly. And the first act, and the house band was a Jefferson airplane. And so... It was a small place. It was a very small place, and the first night it was just jam-packed full. How many do you think it would hold? Oh, I don't know, no more than a hundred and fifty. Were the lines at some point just around the block? Yeah, it was always packed. Everybody played there, Quicksilver, Santana, Big Brother and the Holy Comedy, Beautiful Day, The Grateful Dead. And Wes Wilson did a lot of artwork on those shows. Well, Wes Wilson, he did the artwork mainly for Bill. The only reason that Wes squinted doing the artwork is because Bill wouldn't pay him a hundred dollars for each design and give him ten cents for each poster. Right. And that's where Bonnie stepped in and did a few of the posters before he got, you know, other artists. Other artists being involved, right. I heard some story, let me know if it's true, they didn't have a way to get their equipment to the shows sometimes. And it was something about taking a bus ride with their equipment, that they would take a bus from where they were, they would hand-carry their equipment to get to... Yeah, because they couldn't afford to hire a truck. So they would take all their equipment on the bus with them, drums, you name it, and they got to there, and that's how they got there and got home. Or got lucky and had somebody with the truck or something to get them out. Or somebody with a car. Yeah. So were you involved any other way at that point besides printing the posters? Did you see yourself getting more involved? I... The only way I was involved was with Marty. I mean, in the beginning you said something about me managing the airplane. I never did manage the airplane. There were certain people in the group that wanted me. There were other people that didn't want me because I was Marty's father. I won't mention their names, but that's the way it stacked up. That's the way it moved. They felt that I would favor Marty against everybody else. But you were like Marty's personal manager. Well, I've always been Marty's... I've been Marty's personal manager, his gopher, his attorney, his accountant. You know, his legal advisor. Exactly. So through the Matrix days, Matthew Cage was their manager eventually. Matthew Cage came into the picture. He saw him at the Matrix. And he told him he could get him a recording deal. And it was the first time in the history of the recording business that anybody ever got in advance. So he got him a $25,000 advance, which made them very happy. So they signed with him. What did they do with the money? Did they buy equipment? I think it's hard for me to say whether he kept most of the money because of expenses or what happened. Exactly. But after about two years, they decided to drop him because they weren't benefiting like they thought they should. And then after they dropped Cates, he didn't sue until the Pillow album became successful. Right. And then he filed suit. And then we spent 25 years in litigation. And that litigation ate up millions of dollars in publishing and mechanical monies that they had come in. I think the Jefferson Airplane as well as Moby Grape as well as It's a Beautiful Day went through a lot of that scene. Yeah. Even today, Matthew spends his life just suing. Right. He's got sues going left and right. He's become a profession. Yeah. He's called me up many times to find out certain information and lease his number and I never call him back. I'm not interested. I think everybody in the family sort of plays it the same way. You know. That's his point. That's his life school, sue everybody. Right. When Cates left the scene, who picked up the management and the booking? Bill Graham came in as their manager. And got along. And the reason they left Graham is because he worked them too much. Right. He booked them too much. At a certain point, Grace Slick got involved. Yeah. Sigg left the band in Chicago. She had married a guy, took it upon himself to convince her that she was the star and that she should have better conditions and better benefits and more money. They had a little baby. And when they played Chicago, they were living in a little cold water room. And so he convinced her to leave the band. And then... There was no singer. The band at that time was living on Fell Street. Jack was living there. Marty was living there. I don't know if Paul was there or not or Yarmond. That's the building with the big white columns. And they were discussing getting another girl. I was there at the time. And I mentioned to him that the great society had broken up and Grace Slick was free. Why don't they talk to her? So they decided to send Jack to talk to her. That's how that came about. What year was that about? Gosh, I don't know. It could have been. Let's see. The full album came out, what, 67? So it might have been 67, 68. I'm not sure. And then so at that point, you had Grace. You remember the first show that was played with Grace? I don't remember the first show. The first one of the first few shows? No, I don't remember the first show. But Bill was managing at that time. And Grace brought in these two songs, White Rabbit, Somebody to Love. And today was on the album. And Graham wanted the song today, Marty's Song, to be the single. And Paul kept insisting on Grace's song, Somebody to Love. And White Rabbit. And when Push came to shove, it was Somebody to Love. Didn't Marty write a song, The Summer of Love? Yeah, Marty wrote a song, but that's much later. Much later. Much later. Is that after 67? Oh, yeah, yeah. He wrote The Summer of Love somewhere in the late 80s or early 90s. So they were living at that almost small mansion on Fell Street. Well, they bought that mansion. They bought that mansion for $70,000 at the time. It was all run down. It's the same mansion that Caruso stayed in the 1906 earthquake. What street's that between? That's on Fulton. I can't remember the cross street. Right in the park. They used that as their office and everybody stayed there. Yeah. Paul had a room there. Yeah. Exactly. Marty had a room there. There was some kind of rumor that they all drove Mercedes or Rolls-Royce's or airplane hangar or something. No, no, no. Marty had an old Volkswagen. I don't know what Paul drove. The guy that drove the best car was Jormann. I think he bought, was it just a car, a Lotus or something like that? Yes, yes. He bought something like that. I mean, you've got a name like Airplane. You've got a band name like Jefferson Airplane and all kinds of rumors go through. So kind of this is what we're doing is setting the record straight.  White Rabbit? White Rabbit. How long were they in that house? I couldn't tell you. Yeah. Approximately when did they move out? Marty left in 1970, and I don't remember when they moved out. Right. So were you at that show at the film or at the first show they played? Yeah.  Yeah. I had a standing invitation by Bill to attend any show. At any time I showed up they were to let me in. So I never really missed the show. I thought it was the greatest scene in the world. I thought the revolutionists had come again and the social changes were going to take place. Then the drugs got in and everything got ruined. That's right. Alcohol, drugs, it just changes everything. Had any of them ever played at the straight theater? Yeah. They didn't play the straight theater but we had a club called the I-Beam. Yes. They played at the I-Beam one or two, three times. That was on H-Trader? That was on H-Trader. That was on H-Trader. And I know the band didn't play for a while and then came back again and now they're going strong and we're 2005. When they played a couple of times did they ever play before? When they played that 2000, when they played a few years ago, what was it, 10 years ago? Did they ever play the I-Beam in the early years? No. No. Yeah. We need to document when that place opened. I don't remember when they opened. I don't remember when they closed. I think it was part of in the 80s and this late 70s and the 80s. Were you there at that performance when they played the I-Beam? Yeah. Yeah. On H-Trader. It was like the beginning of them all rejoining and playing again. Can you tell us a little bit about that show or a little bit about what brought the band back together again and why did they decide to be a band and move on and continue playing? Yeah, I couldn't tell you. I really, you know, had that performance. They probably needed money. Who knows? They probably needed money. But none of them ever stopped playing. They were always playing and Marty was playing. So was Marty playing through those years? Yeah, Marty. Privately? Yeah, Marty's had during those years. He's had the Marty Ballad Band. He had Bodacious. He had the Wolfpack Band. He played solo with Slick Aguilar. Oh. So he still plays solo with Slick Aguilar once in a while. So at present Marty plays with the band. Any ways he plays with people in Florida where he lives now. So do you know anything about the name changes?  Well, Hot Tuna. Hot Tuna came about when we did the Network Festival in England. Hot Tuna consisted of Yorma, Jack, Marty, and Joey Covington as a drummer. And their first performance was as an opener at the Network Festival where the Jefferson Airplane also performed. Approximately what year? Gosh, I can't remember. It was in the 70s. In the 70s? Or maybe even prior to that because Marty left them in the 1970s. So it had to be maybe 69 probably. But anyway, the reason Marty didn't stay with Hot Tuna is because Yorma kept putting him down because Yorma liked to play the blues and sing himself. And so he'd keep putting Marty down doing all these love songs. Marty just walked away from it. Marty wanted to do love songs. Well, he always did. Sure. That's what he's good at, balance and love songs. Sure. So he just walked away from it. And then when the airplane really broke up, you know, when Yorma left and Jack left and they wanted to get a band together, they couldn't use the name Jefferson Airplane. They could use the name Jefferson. So Paul's always been into the space stuff, the Star Wars stuff, you know. So he created the name Jefferson Starship. That's how that came about. Would you know when that was approximately a decade? I have no idea. No problem. I'm sure it was before 1980 because Starship's been around quite a while. Quite a while. Yeah. Quite a while. I know you brought some other materials with you and I'd love us to maybe take a look at some of them and maybe take some of these photos and put them in a safe place. Well, these are just when we played Japan as a Marty Ballin band. So these are just... So the band really did world tours. Oh yeah. Everywhere. Yeah. Everywhere in the world they're singing their songs. In the early 80s EMI sent us over to record in Japan. So BMI sent you over to Japan to record? What's that? Where did they send you? BMI? They sent us to Tokyo to record for EMI Tokyo. Right. So who went over there with a band? This is an article in what publication? This is called Musica and Son. What year? 1982. Okay, so it's about then. And what else? There's just different articles on Marty that... This is Japanese. Japanese publication. Yeah. Okay, so this is press photos and music articles and what's in... Is there a way to see the name of that magazine? So... And here? I mean it's all in Japanese. Sure. So I can't help you there on dates. This is called Music Gen. Music Gen. We can take the post it off the corner of that magazine. Joe. What's that? On the corner there's a post that if we can take that off. Is it here? Is that... Okay. And then if you hold that up here I think we can get a closer look at it. Can you tell us about that article? I can't tell you about the article because I can't read the language. Okay. But does the picture remind you of anything? Just that Marty was a big favorite and so they did a great publicity job on him. And this is... These are the type of... Tour book? Tour books that the Starship Obbies puts out. I don't know if we hold that still. See if we can get a closer look at that. So different people did their artwork and a lot of the times you did their printing. Yeah, different people did their artwork. People were always submitting album covers and artwork. So let's put those off to maybe more console. Things of that sort. Looks like there you got an interesting letter from the past. This is a letter that Bill Graham sent me where I asked him to let my niece go backstage. So he wrote me a letter telling me that it's up to the group whether anybody comes backstage or not. That he always gives me as many tickets as I want. So I appreciated that. So it pretty much was Bill Graham's house but whatever band came in was his guest. Whatever band was there, they wanted you to come back. So he gave the house to the band. I mean it wasn't a problem. We got backstage that night so it wasn't a problem. So he gave you sort of all access. And then the other thing here, this is just some poetry that my wife wrote in 1964. Would you like to read a little bit of it? Not really. Okay. A lot. Not that it's not good but you know. So she was writing all the time. You had one playing piano, the other one playing piano. Yeah. My missus always wrote. I mean I got all kind of things that she's written. In the future maybe you could put it together and have artwork and poetry. Yeah. I hope so. I hope so. That's a great idea. When in the days of the straight theater and in that period in the sixties and the eight Ashbury you would be walking down the street in your memory. Are there any changes on the street? Was there anything there that is not here now? Well now you have all the stores are occupied. You have shoe stores. You have clothing stores. You have restaurants. So it's a whole new scene. In those days in the hippie days you had a lot of empty stores. Right. The two of us used to come through. People would be scared to death to get off of them you know. Seeing all these weird people. See you remember. According to them. But today there's still a lot of young people trying to relive the sixties. Yep. But I don't think that's possible. I don't think they'll ever come back. Do you remember the drugstore cafe on Masonic and the psychedelic shop? Yeah. And the boot hook with the shoes and they were meeting places along the street. Is there any place that you can think of like boot hook or places like that that you remember that we're gathering places or a place to go have a cocktail or an event happening that is not there right now? No I don't. Well the psychedelic shop had you ever walked in there? Yeah I've been in there. Yeah. That's where they used to give out the posters for the upcoming shows. But I mean I myself very seldom went into any of the places you know. Right. So I mean I used to see people on the street. Right. It's a family on the street. Today I see no one. Maybe you saw everyone. All the guys from the different groups. It was a haul. Had the Grateful Dad. You don't see anybody. Even if you go to a concert you don't see them. Unless they're playing themselves. That's right. And some of those that I've seen at the concerts and who performed with us. I mean I'm amazed at the change in their appearance. I'll recognize them. Right. You live now in Belvedere and you interact with Marty when he comes in town. You help him like a personal manager still if you can. I was real curious if you had any plans for your future. Yeah Marty right now is working on his own album. Over the years we've done lots and lots of recording on our own. Material that no one has ever heard. Material that record companies didn't want. And so Marty's going through it and he's putting together his own album. He's enhancing the music. He's enhancing the sound. We hope to come out with something soon. That's very exciting. Particularly when this tape is viewed in 100 years from now it will be a collector's item. A collector's item. Right. I would love to ask you if you could take anything from this whole life experience.  And it's continuing. Could you take anything from that? Some spirit or something? That if young people in the future view this tape that somehow they can get a feeling of what went down and somehow get inspired by what you think young people should be thinking about and our world in the future. Well, as far as the future goes what I would tell young people today and those who come along in the future is that we look beyond race, we look beyond the color of our skin, we look at each other as being just human beings who are in this world really a short time and that you're your brother's keeper and you should be helping each other and doing for each other and eliminating monies that are drained away because of the military and because of wars and that's what I think will make it a better world. Give me a name of one of Marty's of your favorite songs. My favorite song of Marty's is coming back to me. I just love that song. When I pass away I hope they play that song for me. We hope you're with us a way, way long time. When his mother passed away I had Marty do that song at a show one night for inner honor. Beautiful. Well Joe we want to really thank you for this interview. It is a privilege. Thank you for sharing your life with us and we will do more of these and you're an inspiration, you're a great part of the period and hopefully when young people look at this in the future they'll realize that they can do something as well. And I just want to thank you so much. All right, thank you.


Governor of Benrey State Samuel Orton and the Presidency engage in a battle of words on the issue of insecurity and cattle grazing. A survey reveals that the trust of Nigerians in the regime of President Muhammad al-Buhari is rated at 26%. This is cross-quality, and I am Mary Anne Hall. The battle of words between the Governor of Benrey State Samuel Orton and the Presidency is still on. This time the Governor said the language employed by him, Garba Shehu, the special assistant to the President on media and publicity, is engaging people or in engaging people rather, is exposing the quality of leadership that he, Garba Shehu, represents. He faulted the response by the Presidency to the comments he made in an earlier interview saying it should address the issues he raised in the interview instead of attacking his person. Shehu had accused Governor Orton of promoting ethno-religious politics, and still on the issue of insecurity, prominent Nigerians including the Sultan of Sarquotu and the President General Nigerian Supreme Council of Islamic Affairs Al-Hajjis-Ad-Abubakar III advised the federal government to sit up and urgently address the challenge. What's running us to discuss this is, at Chike Chude, he is a political analyst, Kwanum Terence is a security expert and Tunji Abdulameed is a legal practitioner. Thank you very much gentlemen for joining us. Thank you for having me. Great. So I'm going to start with Kwanum because you are the security person and we're talking about insecurity here. The question I always ask every security person is, the way we're going about this issue of insecurity, hashtag Boko Haram, hashtag Unknown Gunmen, hashtag Bandids and all the United States actors. Is it the best option that is on the table? Thanks for having me. Obviously it can never be the best when the global terrorism index of 2020 have ranked us as the biggest terrorist country just behind Afghanistan and Iraq when we are living in our neighborhoods with the 40 million terrorist groups, which is the Kwanum Haram. And then we have the leadership that is not confronting this issue properly, that is rather looking for soft landing to give terrorist that have been recognized more over. And so when you begin to lack leadership in this kind of separations, you are going to have colleges and you are not going to have the direction. And so we have lack total political leadership in trying to curb the issues of insecurity in the country. In spite of the efforts that our security, our patriotic security people have put in to make sure that these things are not escalated without the political leadership and the way to confront this issue, which is the challenge that we have on our hands at the moment, because every country that is dealing with security challenges within these borders have been deployed pro-active actions to be called back, even to the extent of using technology to call those security challenges that they have, even to the extent of involving the international community. The way you begin to hide the challenges you have for political reasons that is how they are going to be escalated. And we live in a country where we have a lot of ungodly spaces that are left there for these criminals to occupy and commit us and we are refusing to use technology. We are refusing to involve the international community. We are lacking in political will. I think we have a long way to go and it's quite sad. I'm curious, and the next question is for you, Achike. Why do you think that this is so highly politicized, because the security expert is telling us that there is no political will in the first instance, because you need that if you are fighting this kind of warfare, which is not a conventional one. Why do you think that there's more of bickering between governments, both at the center and the state, instead of coming to a table to have a conversation that would be in the best interest of Nigerians? Well, Nigeria is a federation. The 36 states are federating units and so there's that linkage and obviously what affects one state really has a way of affecting the other states, especially when it comes to issues of insecurity. We have seen the surges is that small in Boronau state and then slowly spread to other parts of the country, not just the north, but every other part of the country, including the south of Nigeria. So that makes it natural for governors whose states are also affected as chief security officers in quotes of their states to also weigh in on what is going on. I think basically this issue would have been handled in a more professional manner, but for the disposition mainly of the federal government whose primary responsibility is the protection of the territorial space of Nigeria. And by virtue of that, the federal government has been given the force of arms to be able to use that to keep Nigeria safe regardless of the state. And so with the federal government failing in that primary responsibility, it becomes a problem for all the other states of the federation. And that is why they are weighing in. And of course, you know, other states, other state, few state executives have also looked at the fact that the federal government has not been able to fulfill their responsibility to the people and have been pushing for a way for citizens within their states to be legitimized when it comes to the issue of their arms for self-protection. But the federal government has also made that very difficult. If not impossible. In fact, warning them about the criminal consequences of amending themselves for the purpose of self-defense. And so, you know, it becomes a very big dilemma if the people, the government whose responsibility it is to defend life and property in the country fails woefully to do that. And the governors who are supposed to be chief security officers in their states are not able to, you know, provide that protection. Then it becomes a problem between the governors and maybe the federal government. And more so, Benoist state that has been at the receiving end, at the center of the violence that has gone on in this country, they have suffered a lot of, you know, a lot of losses. And you see the governor almost crying, putting his hands in the air, because he feels so important when he comes to protecting the citizen. So that has naturally resulted in him holding the federal government responsible for what is going on. And then you cannot, you know, fail to hip a majority of this blame with regard at the doorstep of the federal government.  So it is this inefficiency on the part of the government that really makes it very difficult for the state, some of the states to be in harmony with the federal government in terms of their perception of how the government is handling insecurity in their states. Abdulhamid, one of the, let's just basically look at the concerns of Governor Autumn, one of which is that he feels that Mr. President is seemingly stoking the tensions in his state according to him. He's stoking the crisis in Benway because he thinks that the President wants to declare a state of emergency. Again, let's not also forget that he's disagreeing with the federal government on grazing routes, which he has also initiated a lawsuit of sorts, taking the federal government to court to deal with that issue from a legal perspective, aside from the fact that there seems to be a war of wards. Why do you think that Governor Autumn is taking this position legally and otherwise? Regarding the grazing route or the disagreement with the President on the grazing route issue, I think the best approach is to go to court and let the court interpret or give the interpretation of what it is to do it. For me, I think the government is on the right path, because I am aware that, look, by section one of the land use ads, the administration of land use in all states is vested in the Governor as trustee for the people of the state. In other words, I am not aware that the federal government has a land and look at it as federal land. So those lands that are accepted, except for those lands that were bought in the land use as federal land at that time. Yeah, so what about the federal highways? That's land also, one way or the other, and that's why they're called federal roads. So is that not something that can be... Except those at the federal road, federal lands in the land, because that's from land that's recognized, the one eaten by the what's called, by the federal government at the time when the land use was completed. Some of them were allowed to retain those lands. Except those lands, most the lands in the states are basically vested in the Governor. In other words, the manner to deal with the land, the who to give the land to, the what to do with the land is vested in the Governor. The Governor is ordinating trust for his people. So in other words, if the federal government requires any land in any state, he must approach the state or the Governor to request for that land. And if the Governor grants the land, there should be it. The if is not granted, there's nothing they can do. It is the right of the Governor to determine who to give the land to. I will not give the land to. So the Governor, to me, is right to go to challenge the pronouncement of the President that certain lands will be recovered for what's called, for what's called as bracing routes. So in fact, the law being relied upon by the federal government, that actually not federal government now, the President, is out of 1963, is out of 1964, 1965. That law, as far as I'm concerned, does not apply to entire federation of the country. It applies only to northern region at that time. And as of 1978, when we have the land used as that provision of the law, as far as I'm concerned, it's no longer applied to any land in the country. So you cannot rely on an awful little law that has no longer in effect, if it does not affect any longer to take land for anybody. So if the federal government wants land, he needs to liars and with the Governor and see how it can happen. But because maybe probably because of the political difference between them, this is not being possible. You can see in the most case, there's no crisis regarding the with the position of the Governor as to what the President says is in alignment. Well, maybe that's because the Governor just backpedaled recently. I mean, he just made headlines that Governor Uzzadima is pushing back and saying that there is no ban on open grazing in his state. I think we lost him, but when he comes back, we'll go back to that. But let me come back to you, Chike. Many have wondered why the Governor has decided to take this position after Southern Governors had taken a clear stand on the issue of open grazing. What do you think could have changed his mind? Well, it's politics, obviously, and it's not politics of emo state in general, but politics of the Governor. He's some personal politics trying to ingratiate himself to the federal government, mainly the president of the country, because he was not casual, although coerced into having the broad-based agreement with all the Southern Governors. And so it is the pressure that has been brought to bear on him. And it is a decision he has taken that is diametrically opposed to the people of emo state, who have also expressed anger with the issue of open grazing. So obviously, the Governor is acting on his own, and there is not acting a tandem with the promises he made to the people of emo state. So I don't think we need to flog the matter. It is pure politics. He wants to ingratiate himself to the federal government. That's what it's all about. It's not about the welfare and the security of his people. And do not also forget that this decision by him is a decision that is capable of causing problems. He's not going to be involved in all the forests, for instance, and all the routes that this... If they are going to graze that they are going to go through. And so what it means is that the clashes that we have seen in the past, some parts of the country, especially in the Southeast, are going to reoccur one way or the other. And that is why he needs the input and the buying of the people when he wants to do something like this. If he does not do that, then he cannot guarantee a peace in emo state. And that is the way I see it based on the current situation as we understand it in the Southeast. I'm going to come back to you. Let me go to the security analyst. Now, there are many concerns as to what's going on in the country now. At first it used to seem a bit far-flung from us because you heard 300 people were killed by Boko Haram, 10 people were killed by Boko Haram, but now the numbers seem to be increasing. And the shift of these bandits is shifting, it's hitting a bit more close to home. And we saw what happened in Platu State the other day. We're seeing videos of what happened in the NDA and it's getting all kinds of reactions. I spoke to a security person yesterday, a retired military officer. And he said that first things first, it's a national embarrassment. It's a message that these people are sending because they've seen that maybe our governments are weak and are not dealing with the issue. But as a security person who's seeing everything, either from the inside or from a bad eye view, all that's happening. And the political standings or the angles with which our government and security agencies seem to be taking this from. Can we say that we are really going to be able to deal with this situation before 2023? Because what we see most of our politicians doing is campaigning or trying to realign for 2023. But then more people are dying every single day. Is this something that we can conquer anytime soon, seeing the divisions and the lines that are not blurred in any way? Yeah, I think the reaction of my view to the situations that are happening at the moment is quite impressive because they are not allowing the federal government ineptitude to attain the issues of security. Just go by because they are resisting and they are coming after the federal government so hard because most of the things that are happening is just poor leadership that is being offered by the federal government. We've done actually involving the state governments in serious issues of security because if 17 governors of this country could wake up and go into a meeting and resolve that they all want to go into action to be able to resolve security, common security challenges within their borders. And the federal government still refuses to abide by it. And it's also frustrating the situation for a governor to wake up one day and say, yeah, that's pulled out of that agreement. And that's why they... It then means that the issues of security still lies with the federal government because there is a commander-in-chief. He gives directly to all the seven chiefs and the seven chiefs in turn insist that even the security commanders that are operating within this state take directly from them before they operate. So at the end of the day, the security meetings that we have at the state are just mere conglomerate of siphoning our public force because at the end of the day, the decisions are not effective if they go contrary to what the people in Abu Dhabi are thinking. The embarrassing issue that took place in India, obviously, is an inside job. And that we keep warning issues of security within our formations because you don't, because of religion, open your gates on Friday for everybody can hurry to walk into all our military formations in the name of prayer. You don't open our messes in our security formations for everybody to wake up and be a member. And so obviously, for that kind of attack to have happened, the operation was planned from within for them to be able to execute that successfully and go to this moment that we are speaking, nobody has been apprehended. That is telling the sophisticated of that operation. Consecration of that operation. So he's quite sad that we have a leadership that is overlooking these issues and giving these criminals the audacity to come after even our reverse racial establishment that meet us who we are today. So it's quite a very sad situation but like I said, Nigeria's are not taking this lightly any longer. They are resisting it. Even the leadership in most of the states are coming up with strategies that are going to bring solutions to their own states, even resisting the compromise of the federal government. We applied to comment what the governor of the state is doing because that is how the leader is supposed to do. You need to expose activities happening around you. You need to expose the compromises that are happening around your people. For Nigeria has to know and these things are not happening just within the state. The governor's life life is the same and that's why the governor's state that are cooperating with the federal government is still not the difference story because we hear of killings from the states every now and then we hear kidnapping in Niger and everywhere these governors are not fighting the federal government. They won't be different. But rather the governors that are compromising with the federal government are having the western, the governor of the state that is there they say to be at long ahead to the present. So by and large the leadership at the center every Nigerian wants to do away with this insecurity. Every Nigerian wants to start a security from the neighborhood where they can be able to enter for security agencies to use the way the federal government is still resisting. The federal government feels that this community policy takes effect. They are going to conspire against it or ex wipe it or so. We don't know why they are fighting security at the lower level for us to be able to generate interference and figure out this criminal and then we commend what Nigerians are doing because the resistance alone is going to make the federal government sit up and be proactive in tackling this challenges. Okay in closing Tundji because you went off for a bit because of your connection I'm just going to give you a few minutes to quickly answer this question because our time is almost up. I got a report yesterday talking about the fact that there have been people in this government and highly placed public officials who have a hand in the insecurity that we're facing today people because of course you know how much a Kachkinkov cost one AK-47 cost almost a million Naira and the average herder cannot afford it. So but then the DSS which is the Secret Service has come up to say that yes they have information on these people but they're waiting for a go-ahead by Mr. President to be able to deal with the issue. So does it mean that the President is not in any way willing already to deal with the insecurity that we're facing in the country and my question is how many more people have to die for us to deal head on with this issue as we wrap up? I will not agree with the DSS that the security and that the President they're not doing anything because of the lack of the President to give them to go ahead because I'm aware that when they're bossing to people say who they came to be for one Naira or to be what's he called Yawu Yawu they don't seek for President's permission for doing that. So if you have an allegation against a top officer you don't have to wait for President's a directive for you to do your job your job is to get information and take action regarding that. So what I think they are waiting for President I think it's out of the way and also similar I tend to also agree that probably the President is not interested when an allegation is made against people within his government because when the point is the serious allegation is being made against people who are in your government you need to let them step aside and let them be investigated so that you will know whether or not what they are saying is correct there was an allegation against a minister of large economy or so there are so many other allegations regarding that nothing has been done to date so it appeared from the the conduct of the President it appeared the President is not also interested in dealing with people who have been alleged to be to be compromised in this insecurity issue so probably that is why we are getting we are not we are not we are not winning the war because we are not doing the right we are not we are not taking action against people who have the finger in this act we are the other we are going to arrest people who are agitating for their for their rights I think I think it's our I tend to agree that look the President is not it's not serious in fighting this corruption in fighting this insecurity in that regard it really bids me because this is the President campaigned to fight corruption to deal with insecurity and put an end to Boko Haram and for all that you have all said is it falls down to the fact that there is no political will but I want to thank you guys because we are out of time Achika Trude is a political analyst Tunji Abdulamid is a lawyer and of course we also have Kwanum Terence who is a security expert thank you gentlemen we appreciate your thoughts thanks for having us all right well we'll take a short break now and when we return we're going to be discussing more Mr. Presidents because Nigerians say to not trust Mr. Presidents so we'll get to find out how to use this stay with us