Welcome to the Tuesday October 30th meeting of the My Peel Your Designer Review Committee. I will let staff and members introduce themselves. Meredith Crandall, staff. Stephen Everett. Eric Gilbertson. Benjamin Cheney. Unless anybody else has anything to bring up, do I hear a move to approve the agenda? So moved. I'll hear a second. And all in favor of the agenda, raise your hand. So we'll go to afford with the first application for 100 State Street, continued from the October the 15th hearing, owner of Capital Plaza Corporation and Mary Heaney Trust, applicant city of My Peel Your. This is a proposal for the parking garage and just in terms of introduction I also have to admit that I am a and a butter to the Heaney lot on a property that's adjacent to the Heaney lot but I have no predisposition when we're the other because of that so if anybody has any concerns I'm okay with it either way. So go ahead and present the newest iteration of the parking garage. Thank you for the record my name is Greg Ravido from Ravido Architects and also with me this evening is James Finley Shearers from Wagner Hodges in our Landscape Architects. I gave this to you in print form I also have it for the screen there are a couple of extra sets here there's like three extra sets if anybody in the audience is dying to have one. What I thought I would do is focus on the issues that were most important to this board last time we met which was there was some discussion about an arch feature that was kind of found to be architecturally not entirely relevant and I think we got back with with our client which in this case was the mayor and some folks in city government and I talked to him about where we were and we've come back with a new proposal which eliminates that arch in favor of a couple of things this one gesture solves a number of problems but if you look on the cover sheet you can begin to see that the solution to our problem is probably best illustrated on this whole getting this rendering here which is just the same thing that will blow it up sorry sorry what's been done here is that we've raised up a boardwalk that spans between the garage and the bike path so that as the bike path comes around from the east or from the west by the hotel there's a large landing area there which is at the bike path path level is elevated above the floor level the garage at this point eliminating that arch feature in favor of having this boardwalk come up to the building and then at human scale we've got some smaller art panels shown that compliment the larger art panels above those could be those could be regular pieces of abstract art or they could be something that relates to the history of Montpelier for the painted on parts of the artwork we've agreed that we'll have a public process where the actual art itself is procured you can also see on this image which is kind of a blow up of it you can see this set of relationships including the the ramp which was added on the east side of the parking garage takes us up from existing grade to bike path elevation stopping off at the midpoint for pedestrians coming out of the garage to collect into the same feature so people coming out of the garage going to the downtown would come out this side door here show the law right-hand corner and up the bike up the ramp to the bike path proper across the bridge and over to downtown on the bike path the other access is across the west side of the building or the east side of the building there's a there there is still a walkway that goes between the hotel and the proposed garage which comes down and connects to this to this boardwalk at the bike path I'm talking about the east side of the building there's to oh on the east side there's trees and stuff in the way that I could see it goes past the two entrances to the that's illustrated for the parking garage and out if there's a draw a layout of plan I think if I if I look I'd see 1.1 which is our which is our site plan proper for the garage if I think I understand what you're asking Eric starting from State Street there's a painted bike lane that runs down the Haney lot avoiding the backs of parking spaces and resolving itself at this access drive to the Overlook Park property that's something that's protected by an agreement between the owner of that parcel and the owners of the Haney lot and then down at the lower corner of that access to the Overlook Park parking area you can see where there's a level landing pad and then the ramp starts up and wraps around the southeast corner of the building and up to the ramp up to the boardwalk and that ramp is something I ride my bicycle up well it's it's accessible it's it's designed per the adag and it's wider than normal but we still think that the city ought to put up a sign that encouraging people to walk their bikes on the boardwalk this is going to be a confluence area where bike riders coming from over on one Taylor Street or from downtown are going to converge on this boardwalk area I just I just see somebody coming down that and in a bike I mean you could do it on a bike comfortably but what happens if you run into a pedestrian going the other way it's sharp can you stop fast enough to clip on a scooter yeah any number of things I expect I mean we're constrained by this dotted line here that corner that is the setback why I can't be any wider this this dash dot line is the 20 foot setback as we understand it the in this district within that setback you can you can impact 50% of it I think that's what the right says that it's a 20 foot setback well there's there's it's a 20 foot water setback but in the UC1 it's a 15 foot riparian buffer okay and with so you've got this is one of the things we need to hash out there's still a potential issue now that you added in the ramp under the zoning ranks for here be level I will say that we've discussed this with the civil engineering team and then it's their position that this is a channelized stream back and that would solve my virtue of the film material and the stone the stone facing that's been put on the banks there this is not a unconstrained river this is that something we'll be dealing with the development review board but yeah I mean there is a property line there as well and we can obviously can't go over that right and in all of this I think the renderings show it we still need to have the volume underneath it empty for stormwater purposes yep it's still doing if the audience would like to see any of it we could I mean it's probably easier for me to go through the paper version but you know I'll put the I'll put the rendered image up if anybody wants to see that we can just turn the lights off so you can see what's up on the screen so that's that's the image anyhow and what we're talking about is right in the middle of the image where you can see those colorful panels we've changed the design to include this boardwalk which will be up at the bike path elevation and that basically gets rid of the arch as a concept on this which is fine okay so have you thought about any benches or anything on the deck that's there it's pretty good size we have thought about some site furnishings I know that the package that's met it for the fifth includes the the built-in tool racks here's the stuff I can I don't know if I can zoom in on this was there any more discussion regarding the trellis I don't know what we're calling them the steel sculptural features sculptural features yeah that's my I'm gonna go to that next I just wanted to zoom over and show you the boardwalk yes up in detail so you can see there are a little red things are the bike repair station one of them is a pump and the other one is a is a rack that's got Allen wrenches spanners and stuff on it for people you know want to stop and fix a tire or and then you can see there's a little bit of an arrangement of of benches there as well and the decking is proposed to be pressure treated I don't know I don't know about pressure treated what we think what we think it would be as we would use solid concrete plank to span the opening yeah and then we dress it with a with a suitable tropical hardwood to to provide the walking surface make it more boardwalk like the idea being that we want to discourage people from rollerblading and stuff into this sort of pause point slow people down a little bit so I think having that surface helps this would be a good place for a bike rack to yes and we are still planning on putting bike racks in the garage but I I don't know if we've indicated any on the site here I think this is a night to just because yeah it's a gathering place and I don't know how much of a view of the river it has from there you've got the railroad bridge right there I just I can't I assume there's a pretty good view of the river you know obviously the riverbank is on the other side of one Taylor Street but the north branch you know the area around this this bike path as it comes up on the new bike path bridge is it's going to be a real place to congregate I think I think it's a huge improvement from the last the other question I has hold Carnahan wrote a very thoughtful letter about access to the river and I think and I thought of it afterwards yes this really does block the river so it's I think it was really good to provide those accesses in a really clear way and I don't know whether anything can be done I think it might be a place for art is on the entrance to the alleyway between the hotel and the parking garage okay you had something just a sign that says to the Riverwalk you know maybe with some nice images okay so people have really clearly know that was that was a way to get to the to the river I'm I'm big on benches yeah they need to tell me to be that way but you know to add some benches so people can wait that can serve as a meeting place for people or people can sit there and rest alright well as you can see we've indicated five benches they're kind of yeah I'm thinking about it the entrance although on the other side on the other side oh okay and you know a sign on this end of it signs it's appropriate you know just eight streets you're saying right there where it says proposed eight-foot white yeah there's the front door there's the front door of the garage yeah and then there's the path between the two buildings with the property line between them yeah and something out on the away from the other side there on the north side I guess I think that's something you could stipulate without having to come back I mean we would happily agree but some place that makes it look like an attractive way to go for people yeah and and obviously the way-finding stuff is as important as well hold on one second if you want I don't know how you want to run it tonight but when you do ask a question you're gonna want to talk to microphones everybody can hear you so hold on one second I was gonna suggest that as well why don't you come up to the microphone introduce yourself and then ask the question that you would like so hi I'm Elizabeth Parker and I've been very much interested in this bike access and I'm excited about what you're doing with regard to the area where you can repair bikes and sit my question is as it's drawn now and it may just be the surface that you're trying to describe but I just wanted to make sure that if there is going to be a railing along the top of the retaining wall that it is going to make a sharp turn back along the side of this terrace that you're creating and not run along to the bike path that that is all going to be open space from the north south side of the terrace over to the other side of the terrace that there's going to be it's going to be easily accessible is that the concept well or what are you conceiving of this is the this is the bike path proper here where my cursor is and and all of this land up here with these trees and stuff shown right is that bike path elevation this little area in here as well as these two triangles of space are below are down below right like six feet I I understand so we're showing a railing going across here perfect yes that's was my question that corner that's exactly wonderful we I don't know and can't say anything definitive tonight about the final disposition of it of a fence along the train tracks because Tom McCartle brought up the notion that it may be a problem to have a fence on both sides of tracks that that was my question I just wanted to make sure that that's where the railing was going to go and that it wasn't going to continue along and then that little section that runs right there no down well it doesn't matter you've answered my question thank you okay great yeah and then this this quote the formal bike path crosses over to the one Taylor Street lot and let's to become Confluence Park right down here next page here for me well here you can see that fence she was asking about here going across the top of that what I was trying to bring up are the last few pages in the set sorry not my laptop and I'm going to have to do this so I've prepared for you three options and I don't know why these are squished like that the proportions are weird because this sidebar menu that I love to close but I don't know if I can do you know how to close this menu here if you go to full screen I don't wear that thanks control well forget the vertical proportions for a minute this is option one which would be what I've done is I've presented three options with the opening decorated in a distinctive way so we can talk about these openings because the building's big complicated thing and there are lots of moving parts we didn't articulate every rendering with every option because we just don't have it in our budget to do that but here's here's what we're calling option one this is a dimensional steel frame that sort of forms a portal arch within the masonry and then it's braced by a couple of diagonal braces with some some big plates big plate connectors of the courses on the our side of the building this this would be any of those masonry portions where we've got the big opening so this is okay this is one of the alternative ways of decorating those large openings we're doing something very similar on a project right now in South Burlington called Larkin Terrace it's on Shelburne Road down by the McDonald's in Burlington and we were using the steel to chase around the openings with the masonry like this and what it does do is it gives us an actual load carrying member that can act as the lintel for that large masonry opening and it also gives us a sort of tidy transition between the brick and the structure behind because I can use this frame element to to define that line and then what you're seeing in the background which is going to be common to all of these is a proposal this is a fiberglass fabric that's 50% open it forms a sort of solid screen on which we can have images printed and what I'm she what I'm showing here is is that screen that scrim if you will and I've printed on it sort of industrial looking gears and stuff you know thinking about this thing as a railroad trestle bridge and so at any rate what the scrim would do is it would hide the precast elements behind and sort of provide a sort of solidness to this opening so that these sculptural elements can kind of play in that space without I think it would be fairly easy to change to it yeah I think they I think they're meant to last for a good long time but they could be changed over time yeah is that what's also preventing me from falling out yeah it would do it would do it would provide for free ventilation at the same time it would keep you from going in or it should it be helpful in terms of keeping snow and winter and rain and stuff from getting in on those intermediate levels as well so this is this is an option to that problem but it doesn't have that would be another great place to have a competition for the for the for the screen printing of the material yeah whatever the design is yeah not not and I can think of it at some places a photograph of a train might be a good thing to do I'm assuming you can blow up photographs and if you want I think that's sort of more graphic and abstract it is probably the longer lifespan it'll have as far as I'm sorry I'm trying to do here's go to the next option all right so here's the original concept plan again it would have that scrimm material line it then you've got these four inch steel pipes that are winding back and forth as you can see them this way but they're also going back and forth in the plane this was my original concept and I still like it so I'm going to keep it on a list of options but I think one thing is you know we've always intended for that to have some color on it so this is I think me showing it with a variety of colors happening and then there was one last version of this which would be a very traditional thing that's being done in interest in interesting ways these days is a perforated masonry screen wall so we would have the mason lay this up in an interesting pattern and occasionally the shaded parts would be spots where we would have them leave a block out they can turn bricks partially leaving them project or otherwise give this a very sculptural look this is a pretty solid looking thing though I think the idea has some currency in a design world right now and it certainly works with us as far as you know providing a ventilated wall that's still solid I'm not sure this is my favorite option but it is an interesting idea I think it just would be a challenge to find a mason to do it well giving an idea of how many openings you would use one of these treatments on I can't figure out to count them but the four outside corners of the building are essentially where the solids are there are two more interior masses that are solid as well so there's six potential locations for this and and I would I would like to suggest that we use one approach to all six because we'll have other variety going on as much as I still like my original idea I also really kind of fond of option number one as well it's it sort of speaks to what our original design intent was which was to sort of recall the adjacent rail bridge in an abstract way I think for those of you are who are looking for this steel thing to be more understandable as having a job to do our purpose for being there this is pretty strong in that regard and we have a lot of flexibility creativity than we can employ on this this screen fabric material I like number one I mean you can vary it with different designs in the background so I'm a little worried about all the different designs like between the murals and then like having all these different panels of like trains and gears and just it begins to feel like a lot to me I mean I would have to sort of and then with the plantings and what you know it's like the scrim doesn't have to be a graphic though it can just be understood it could be a very subtle you know blacks and grays well that's what I'm hoping yes and then the steel structure could replicate the railroad bridge which is already there anyway which is you know that the standard railroad truss of the time I think it's a nice tie-in rather than the abstract I like that the meeting of the steel and the brick and you know I've done this recently and I've really been thrilled at the results just because it you know I mean that the mason's like it you know and it does serve this real structural purpose and it tightes up a lot of details those of us who use brick veneer understand our corners and times when things come together where you're going to hide this yeah this does that if if the board were a solid yes on one of these options and I'm hearing some support for one we would we would just propose to apply this everywhere it occurs before we go to the development review board for final approval yeah I would I would suggest a design competition for the background just I mean that gets public involvement it gets people interested in in the project it makes it understandable publicly and I maybe you could work with a Vermont console on the arts or yeah I don't think you should have to do that but I think as part of the project it would be interesting it would produce some variety so all these things would look the same so this room is the representation is just a placeholder I'm suggesting that there's a lot of flexibility there and I think as with all the public art that you know if art conveys meaning and what that meaning is really ought to be you know it's up to the city to express that if that if that makes sense the how much do you estimate those panels cost the fiberglass panels I haven't priced them out but you know five thousand bucks maybe they're not that terribly expensive this this art the you know the art that's painted on would probably be you know bolder and meant to show more but you know this would go from these from these to that to that more restrained kind of look which probably plays better with the storefront and some of the other stuff we've got going on black metal wise I think the idea of the gray and subtle look of that is a background is great we already have the center art work right and then you've got the greenery around and to try to make this stand out it's competing too much with everything else so I think the more subtle it is I think it'll draw the attention to the other components better I think you're right and you can sort of see here this background with just a plain gray scrim behind it and really all it does is it hides the precast parts in a kind of a meaningful way that's kind of what I was my question so in section if I was to look through that thing I'm going to see sort of the diagonal slope of the of the ramp going up to the next level yeah yeah and so the scrim allows so I don't so you don't see this those transitions and then you wouldn't have to put railings at two elevations at some sort of design is subtle in color and everything they're not going to clash with each other even if they're quite different you know a different focus I agree and Mount Pilly really has a tradition how many projects have we reviewed for art on the streets a lot a number yeah it's it's been something that Montpelier is doing I just wanted to add in this is relatively new at last week's City Council meeting the City Council adopted a public art master plan in the creative of a City Arts Commission so they would probably be a logical group that would guide a process for something like this so that is as you as you know more guard is coming into play and there's there's a plan coming together for how to deal with it thank you Bill we could get some graffiti people to do it well you know they might be what goes in they painted the backside of the Champlain Trains rampartations thing and they did they had a bunch of street artists can do it was amazing what they came up with some of those days are really good yeah I I think that's gone legit Banksy selling paintings for millions of dollars and then chopping them up where's more chopped up than it was to encourage expansion of the area there was one last image I wanted to bring up if I can sorry I'm having trouble navigating here do this yeah I really do like one because it can provide some variety and it looks and it makes structural sense just cross pieces made no structural sense to me okay I'm bringing this image up for one purpose only and that's to show what the possibility of putting a solar array on the roof of this garage might look like and what we've presented is that the project is designed so that it can accommodate this kind of thing I don't think it's in our initial budget to provide this solar panel but I'm going to float the idea out there that this is how we would go about it should be like a solar carport that did not extend out to the edges of the building but only covered the two center bays and that would that would do a couple of things you know sort of reduce the apparent mass in the building I brought this up because I think some there were some comments by the public who were curious about this and whether or not it was something we still were interested in and would love to have your input on whether or not you think this is appropriate but at the same time I'm not really asking you to take action on this because I don't think we're offering up solar panels coming out of the gates but but I did include this image just for the purposes of having that conversation it how much taller it looks quite a bit taller than the corner stairwells yeah well it's going over the ramp in a way that it's eight feet at one end so it's the end that we're looking at is up 13 feet that's one issue with doing it is that you're going to see it it's going to be it's going to be up there will you see it like if I'm walking along State Street looking up I mean realize it's pulled back enough so that yeah you'd probably see it I probably wouldn't jump out edge as anything outrageous but anyway I just wanted to show that to you as part of the conversation but not necessarily a sort of central issue for this evening it's it's a possible a constructive building so this is really easy to put up it's possible for it to be structurally sound enough to take the extra weight for us to have the weld plates and stuff in the tops of these shear walls so that if the city elects to do this because you get a grant or somebody wants you know then then we would then the building would take it it's going to have conduits going up to the roof and even even to the point of the fastening so that it would be really easy to fasten it right that's what I'm thinking yeah is that we'd have the buried weld plates in the tops of these precast panels so that somebody wanted to attach this they could anyhow it was sort of a sidebar issue but I wanted to be responsive on that there was also something I wanted to talk about because I think this gets it it's been mentioned in a couple of public hearings that the people don't understand how our images could show the garage being taller than the bridge but it looks shorter and certain from certain perspectives and they just want to point out that the reason that happens is because the floor plane of the garage is 10 feet below the the western abutment of this bridge so we're starting out in a fairly deep hole to begin with the bridge is 25 feet tall but it starts from a point that's 10 feet taller than the building's first floor and just by virtue of being in the foreground the bridge does look bigger at some of these issues but we're we're we're confident that these models are accurately representing the buildings as proposed with that said I don't have any more formal I think we had three things to talk about how this project connected to the bike path what to do about that arch and what to do about those decorative openings those were the big three takeaways I came with from our last meeting but everything's on the table and I've got everything with me if anybody wants to talk about any particular edge quick question what's the difference the bridge over the north branch where that what's at grade on the other side on the parking garage side of the north branch what's the difference between the grade there and the crossing over the tracks well it all kind of comes up to about 528 at the bridge abutment so the railroad track and the bike path are all sort of up around 527 528 right there at the west end of that bridge and then it drops down to natural grade of like 519 and we've graded some areas in that that was a sort of pit behind behind the garages that's excavated down to 518 so there's a there's a ten-foot drop please go back to the view you had before sure so for a hole you just had your your cursor no the one further right there yeah how deep is that well the floor elevation is 518 and the top of it top of this wall here in this location is going to be I think 525 right at the corner of the building and then this other 700 six seven eight-foot hole right at the at this this little wedge of space is down in a hole about six seven feet and then the tracks and everything are suddenly rising up to 528 right in here top of the normal top of the bank is roughly 518 right along here so this was all designed to just be a top of bank elevation so if it ever flooded the waters would come in and go back out without needs of pumps or that you're not putting any trees in there or anything well we are actually proposing quite a bit of landscaping in there but you know we didn't show it in our renderings for purposes of this is this is what the landscape plan looks like or the with the building looks like with the actual proposed birches in front of them and what James has done is he's made those birches a little bit transparent so you can kind of read behind yeah so you can you can see the trees here are ghosted in in the foreground and then you see an initial growth of the vines going up here's here's those benches again up on the boardwalk and these little individual art panels along here and the major panels up above and you can also see here where we've programmed some circular openings into the green screen and the plant stuff is kind of growing around so you get to see the bike to sort of question one is is this bridge a placeholder is that something that you've designed are you responsible for this pedestrian bridge or is that just the bridge across the river is a separate project designed by Stan Tech and I already approved I think it's gonna be constructed soon okay so that's so no we did design the the ramp coming up from any lot to the boardwalk but yeah yeah and then I guess what sort of been other issues and now I'm beginning to sort of focus a little bit on the cornices and sort of some what the materiality of that horizontal bands are and we'd just like to hear a little bit more about what that is before we move on to that I was wondering if there's somebody in the audience who had a question about something that was being talked about yeah introduce yourself I live here in Montpelier and I'm interested in lighting how is this going to be lit up and I don't see any lights or posts or and also I'm concerned that it's going to be adding to light pollution in our city so I'm wondering what kind of lighting you're going to be using so that's directed down downwards as opposed to letting it just go up to the sky thank you go all lighting for the project is led lighting and all of them have what they call controlled photometrics so they're down casting shielded lights we have typically on the sort of street like portions of the project which includes the hotel and a drive-in from Taylor Street then back out to state now the public ways is this type SL1 here which is a very traditional looking housing with a with an LED with LED guts and so this is this is really beautiful elegant type fixture that's that's going to be most of the site lighting here and those those do have controlled photometrics we did submit a plan showing point-by-point the the values for that sorry in addition to that there are the light fixtures inside the garage itself sorry I knew I had a 5050 chance there okay yeah well some of these are just wall mounted these happen around doors and stuff like that they're nothing special this is these are these are ground mounted lights that are meant to shine up and I assume they're pointed at the artwork James Finley shares landscape architect the idea for these lights were to create a glow down in those flood gullies that we've been talking about with the birch plantings they'd be pointed horizontally so they would give it glow if you looked over but we've done the photometric plan on it and there's no light creep from it as they're protected by the six foot retaining or eight foot retaining wall and the building on the other side so there'll be no light creep from them they'll just create a nice sort of glow that you'd look over the the side of the railing at all the other light fixtures are cut off fixtures and so they've been designed to meet the security foot candle minimums with no night sky issues talk a little bit about the color temperatures we're gonna be using all of the yellow three thousand color so it won't be the white blue LED it'll be nice sort of yellowish light you know white mimicking incandescent that's right of the mr. 16th of the old halogen world the fixtures within the garage and then on top those are a little different I was looking for those I did I did show those to you at the last meeting but the ceiling mounted light fixtures I think I just make one observation this is Meredith Kittfield again so as I walk along the bike path currently stonecutters way has one type of light fixture and then I go over by the high school and they that section has a totally different kind of light fixture you know outdoor light fixture has there been any thought to kind of integrate the light lighting for the bike path so that it's somewhat consistent or is that not a good theory the bike path that has been designed has been a fixture and so the idea is that will be done most of the bike path as part of so you can use those foot candles within our photometrics survey but there is a consistent light going through the new Taylor Street and which kind of fixture the ones on stonecutters or the one I'm not sure it's a Vega shoebox is what they call them so it's a very simple rectangle just curious thank you thank you then we've got a mouse make this go a little bit easier there is one all right thank you all right thank you Mike this was the light fixture we talked about in the last meeting which is a ceiling mounted light fixture that goes up between the fruits of the garage deck and that's that's an LED fixture as well and it is vandal resistant the question depends on which mounting system you use but we wouldn't use the long pendants top deck is Vega or that's something else the top deck is this same pole has a has a pole mounted fixture for it so different than a street lighting is it like a goose neck off the pole I should be able to find it here now that I found the right folder here's back there it shows you the side mount and all the hardware poles everything is black that would be my choice yeah comes in black silver white or bronze I think but I was thinking black it seems more compatible with the rest of the structure yeah you talked to Ben's question about materiality of the project could you address I'm pretty sure we asked for options on the picket fence as well okay the the general material palette is is the standard common brick the string trims and aprons that you see are on are the Vermont granite and then we were going to have this made out of either like a glass reinforced concrete or an EFIS just because we didn't want to have a lot of weight out there and this is this is a pretty big cross-section this so that would be built up yeah right durability wise to I think that's probably true we don't there's no advantage to having the insulation be involved really but we would have these prefab and then bolted on the top of the wall and then you're capping it with another there's an aluminum coping called to go over the top of all of it just as a weather course then we have the and it will be painted to be of similar speckled to the granite the GFRC the GFRC yes like a polymix type paint I thought you were talking about the coping I think the coping oh no in my mind the coping was just going to be black yeah but yes I care more about that big thick visual band right similar from our granite yes but obviously to get to get something two feet tall with a projection of about two feet you know for the 800 feet of perimeter whatever could get really expensive so yes we need to they're definitely using the granite where we're most likely be able to see it put your hands on it have you looked into polymer composite oh for instead instead of glass reinforced concrete yeah I either one of those I think would be appropriate it's really gonna come down to what fits our budget best I'm in a green screen I have a piece of that but that's that's gonna come with a factory finish on it's kind of a dark green then regarding your sort of like steps and why you kind of broken it up horizontally the way you have is there a logic to it the well there's a couple there's a couple pieces of logic one is the language suggested by the zoning ordinance which I know doesn't necessarily apply in this design control district but the intent of it something was brought up by one of the neighbors who popped into one of these meetings if you read the standard you know broadly speaking you know the goal of that was to make sure that you didn't have one section that was longer than 48 feet long and that these things kind of read as individual three-story blocks with speed you sort of vegetable spacing between them was very much an intention to sort of repeat more the scale and rhythm of downtown Montpelier which tends to be three four-story masonry buildings and they tend to be you know one business wide you know historically yeah I was speaking more of the specifically to the cornice as much as I am interested in as far as how much up and down it goes was a was that was just a reflection of its relationship to finish grade so here it's it's more or less a sort of guardrail height but the ramp is falling away behind this you know so having them to step up and down a little bit so having one consistent top line was part of that effort to sort of again kind of be suggestive of individual building blocks with sort of green space between and so you know this landing over here is five feet higher than this landing so you know the whole thing is popped up a bit so that this is again this parapets kind of at hand real height on this end of the building as well it's usually the the green screens are doing most of the reaching was James thank you Liam so we talked about different different growth stages as well is that something that you have represented as far as what we wanted to do a show here sort of year three four rather than the other the architectural renings would show it sort of fully grown we thought this was a nice sort of stage to look at it and again I was talking last time we met about the idea of the way these vines kind of find their way up the green screen is actually being kind of a beautiful thing outside of just having a sort of one solid texture of green and so yeah we like how it sort of climbs up to the top and then sets it sets its twines up there and then kind of come down and then we'll fill in and around the around the apertures great Greg's made in the green screen there we want it to look good from day one day to day you know year one year three so we think we've come up with a nice solution I have another question this is Meredith Kittfield I was wondering can some kind of banner be hung over that artwork let's say you were having a special festival and Montpelier and you wanted to put three banners up can you actually put something over that artwork yeah it would be temporary be like a flag some kind of a flag or a banner well I think it's a great idea I mean we could certainly design the hardware in there to receive it you know some kind of you bolts or something that people can hang on to these panels sit back from the main face of the masonry like four inches they're pushed back they're just in relief a little bit to give this wall some texture here and sort of express these these pilasters and that was meant to give each piece of a frame you know but that that gives you a space in which you could work if you wanted to do something like a lot of the people who make the same scrims that we're talking about here make precisely those kinds of things for like New York Fashion Week yeah that kind of stuff where they just cover the whole side of a building with something temporarily I don't have it in my budget to provide the temporary art but I don't see any reason why this couldn't be sort of set up to receive that no problem could you hang something from that top lip that white lip we probably rather didn't do that okay only because that's the sort of beginning of our waterproofing system and generally people start getting up there and drilling holes and stuff this this would be well it'd be a little more it wouldn't necessarily be plastic it'd be a composite material either fiberglass reinforced cement or there are some polymer based ones that are solid but we're not talking about phyton or anything here if that means anything to you so can somebody actually walk over to that lip up at the top or is that off limits well at this end in this end it would be the top of the wall the top of the parapet would be about 42 inches off the deck so yeah when you're parked on level four and a half you'll be able to stand right behind this wall and look out at downtown my billionaire oh this is level four down here five feet lower but you'll look over the bridge so cocktail hour right people use these garages for all sorts of things I you know I used I remember what Ben and Jerry's used to show movies on top of Cherry Street garage that's right it's a good time so how about the picket fencing yeah cut she this is I'm just opening this because this is our retaining wall we should talk about that before we start company what did you need what did you label that thing it was just called railing detail it should be in that pack for today's yeah I saw you guys were just talking about it it's just a very simple sort of steel square railing yeah I'm sorry I've got a couple of things charging stations I don't forget that how many electric charging stations are currently budget make sure your name up sorry Laura Rose Montpelier how many charging stations are currently in the budget for the garage well we've got two pieces we've got two data points one is I believe that the city ordinance now requires so many electric charging stations per parking space and based on that I think we believe I believe I came up with a quantity of 20 now the city manager and assistant city manager I believe went up and toured the project in St. Albans and the operators in St. Albans said that that would be too many so it's it's it's it's up for you to tell us how many you want because otherwise we'll provide 20 of them and I'm not sure there's some policy level decisions that have to be made like are those exclusive use use spaces which I would suggest they shouldn't be and you know if you're not going to use them right away do you want to spend the money or would you rather install them as they get in as they get absorbed but to the best of our knowledge we have to present 20 unless somebody tells us that it's okay to do fewer and how many are currently paid for in the current budget well I don't know that any of it's sort of but given a line item in the budget but there's been a sort of generous equipment budget right along I I think that also includes like ticket taking equipment stuff as well so I can't answer I did hear that the number was four and that seems in other so I'm wondering I didn't know there was a number in the ordinance until I stumbled across it and then once we did we said well that's that's the answer so 20 required by current law thank you a suggestion on the charging station in some of the I know some of the space is flexible the same for use but if you install the infrastructure the wiring for the charger charging stations and so it's just a matter of molding it on if you maybe install 10 and you have 10 that are easily the access rules had a class of you know fully handicapped and they had one that's called adaptable so that the you know the plates and everything are in place that's what I'm kind of thinking about that if you need the extra ones I don't know where they all be in one place or not well the only thing they have the only thing they have to be is they have to be above elevation 528 so they're going to happen on level 1 and above exclusively because they've got to be protected from flooding and nation we have done a lot of these in our hospitality work with hotels and generally what we've done in those circumstances is had an outside vendor install them and the outside vendor makes a little money every time somebody uses it kind of similar to the ATM machines that a gas station you know it's not really a bank you know they don't really have anything to do with it I'm probably convinced that there's going to be more demand for them in the future that's the only thing I'm thinking of well I hope you're right and I think your ordinance anticipates that I think the policy level decision is really would you want to make those spaces exclusively for the use of electric vehicles because if you do then you know that's 20 spaces in a lot if they're not being used they're being used every day great you know but that's a policy level decision it's not really a design issue I know that this this was about a brand that we liked because it worked with both both types of battery formats and had the built in accounting software and stuff like that you know you'd need 10 of these and we probably put a couple on each level yeah I'm just saying extend the wiring so it's real easy to add because that's certainly gonna happen and this is pay-for-service you pay for the power yeah I assume I don't like the city I'm sorry saying it's tied into the city's meter well we're working with a specialty consultant on them the hardware that runs the garage I think in my experience parking is one thing and charging is another because I think probably what'll happen is when you come in you'll get a ticket and when you leave you'll pay and if if you need to charge your car while you're there you'll do that transaction right at the post it's my thought how it's operated isn't really a design consideration it's more public policy decision but I don't see any reason why the city should give the power away I can set those up just with a sticker credit card and it'll charge for you know whatever power yeah yeah I'm assuming the revenue goes to the city Bill are the ones being by City Hall are they pretty well used all the time for charging yeah you know they're they're restricted for EV vehicles only so yeah I think that you know I don't monitor them carefully we're their third-party revenue at this point so the we're not monitoring their use but you know just anecdotally I'd say I see cars there more often than not but did not I wouldn't say it's hundred percent well it's always been part of our thinking to have them our thinking has evolved recently to say we should have more and yeah the only reason I'm hesitating is is we're getting advice from other cities that are running garages that 20 might be an awful lot so how you want to dispose of that issue if it's really a issue for this board again then the number of charging stations can be changed at a later date with this Eric said with the infrastructure and beside the number of those would be point for the DRV to take up anyway good just for the record I mean this is the retaining system that we're calling for it's a modular unit system with a nice dress face on it it is not a cast of place concrete wall I don't know if you want to say anything about it James I that is that's that is the wall we're proposing this wall will tie into the bike path bridge wall so there'll be a bit of working out as they presented a unit block wall so we'll hopefully use ours is the design you show for the bike pass bridge the one that I don't know there's a decision has been made on that or not I mean the bike path bridges that we have before our steel press right now I I think that's just something that we gleaned from the civil drawings we didn't have any of your options to show I mean obviously that's not part of our project so we're not asking for approval on that I just thought maybe the city would know what the plan view layout is from the stand-tec approved plants the plan view I don't know the my understanding the base block is sort of showing the upper left-hand corner there on the last slide that you just had up and then there are what I'm seeing on the bottom is a variety of faces that you could slide on to that correct and the one you have chosen for the face is the bottom left-hand corner yes and the idea is that we get it in a color to sort of match to the granite and I'm assuming that some sort of faux stone texture to it that's it yeah yeah there's sort of levels of undulation like that you can see the two different levels of texture there quite well in that so our goal is to match the natural stone as possible and you build the whole thing with just the raw blocks and then put the faces on later yeah there's like you can see actually in this that's exactly right so you set these base blocks and then you can slide on the veneer pieces it's a new one from you know I've got yeah and I guess the idea is if something bad happens you can replace it you can pop it out and then the other idea is sort of you could articulate at the wall the way they sure and that's sort of the other piece with the sort of more texture could help you proportionally break up that wall a little bit more yeah these are fascinating either with mortar or they just loose they will be we'll have a structural engineer review obviously whatever the final detail is but I believe that mostly their gravity block but they will have tiebacks into the grade that they're retaining they're sometimes tipping did yeah they'll know they'll be pulled back they'll have dead men pull it back with concrete that's our issue or not but I'm curious we don't have a lot of surcharge it's not like there's a big slope coming down from behind this wall but you do have a railroad you know you've got some pretty dynamic loading so we just have to make sure that occasional truckload of granite doesn't vibrate the thing into submission less than occasional it's become more well I'm happy if they're busy yeah loose ends here just I was still looking for the picket oh the fence sorry it's hard copies I did see that yeah well let me just say this and not I'm not a fan do we get just don't I think it's not the way to go I'd like to see something either horizontal or graded off some other treatment would be much much better we're we don't love the horizontal physics sometimes can do get the latter effect and I've been over it but you have that going on here in all these railings I think that's just a render artistic the way we've designed it is up and down understanding on that one detail would show them vertical whether it's horizontal or not you know it's graded off you know it seems like the picket is so you're maybe a mesh panel or something yeah I just seem to pick it is a little bit of an afterthought I mean if you really brought the rest of the project up and listen to many things yeah it's like the picket needs some attention and then there was some debate as to whether we actually needed them some believe that we need them and some don't is that there is a the code anything more to the 30th drop would require understood but and so I wouldn't use it anywhere else it was a security yeah I thought we were talking about all on the elevation of the building yeah oh Greg can speak to that I was just talking about the safety railings I'm sorry could you ask again I was digging through this file I could curious about the neat the where the need for some of the picket fencing especially at ground level is coming from security you know I think just in talking to the police and stuff there was some concern about keeping people from wandering into the people wandering into the garage from my back but sorry yeah so we were trying to keep people out of the lowest level in the garage that's what that's their primary function can can I speak to that just real quick so my understanding is that they're going to have security cameras at certain locations like at the entrances but they wouldn't necessarily have security cameras along that whole bottom level where the fencing is but they need to be able to let the water in and out so they can't just put a wall there and then have security cameras like in the stairwells and the pedestrian just entrances but they need to be able to have some idea of who's going in and who's going out I think that's one reason they had the fencing just not finding that cut sheet we do have paper copies and I think somebody had another question hi Elizabeth Parker here again so I I talked about this at the end of two meetings ago and it's it's just a little point but I have an editorial part of myself and if things don't get changed then I'm concerned that they will be this way so my concern is again that handicapped parking I believe in this diagram is shown in the northeast corner not close to the elevator which is in the northwest corner and I think it'd be great if those could be contiguous am I in correct or I mean it's the elevator and here are some handicaps okay because I'm looking at a different drawing here so maybe this is out of date it could be but generally that generally they're between gridlines one and two perfect to the stair tower that makes me very happy showing is a stair tower and it's in the northwest corner where there's an elevator as well perfect okay good moving on and so then my other question and maybe I missed it just now because I was thinking about this question this previous question on it on the east side on the ground level where the fence is going to be is it going to be I know that on the northeast side there will be a fence that can be opened up should cars need to leave for some reason but on the east side is there going to be the ability to have an opening fence still which was discussed at one point on the ground floor so that for instance if there was a need to have an event that you could go underneath and have some sheltering for a community event or some expansion of the market or some such thing you know where where is that stand now I recall that conversation and I don't see any reason why it can't happen but I don't think it's illustrated on this plan all right I just think that it might be a nice feature for an agreement about providing it I just right you know and try to keep track of everything we talked about we were focused on this entrance here right then got you you know sort of out to the bike path and over to the main street but you're talking about one down a grade around the corner and I just on the east side it would be somewhere where these openings are yeah so I'm just putting that out there as being a teacher that symbol there indicating that that's a great all right thank you thank you can you go back to the image of the deck in the back because I didn't see where the alleyway ends up from the front yeah I'm sorry I don't quite understand where does the from the alleyway between the hotel and the garage okay I see I see why it didn't show up yeah there so it's it's dropping that image so it's a hard to read in that image I think in this image it's it's going along the top of the wall here okay and turning the corner I just want to so it's it's a little hard to see at this resolution but no I see where it is I just it just doesn't show clearly at all and the image you are yeah I think it's just it's just sorry I can't get this thing I just want to say again that you know decorating that and signing it so it's an attractive space for people in a welcoming way I think people tend not to like to go down alleyways even if they're lit and so making me you know breaking that up and and so making a nice entry on the front side of the hotel we have green screen wrapping around that sort of southern part of that right there right there so enhance at least you know that make half of it wonderful so as you come between the buildings you know about about after about 40 feet you come out from behind this and then it's open into this garden in the footprint of the building at the ground level we've got some opening some window openings from the fitness center to the alley as well so that as you're walking down there you're you're you get some visual relief but I agree I mean it's it's that's a that's a tight those are tight quarters not everybody's gonna like because of the other I mean it most we can do to keep keep the garage from sort of being a barrier to getting to the bike paths in the river would be good well there's this which I think will function really well for hotel guests you know there's some outdoor patio area the swimming pool is down adjacent to this space as well but don't forget as I pointed out earlier on sheet C1 the you know the design has it has been improved to include that bike path connection through the Haney lot and now to Stan Street there as well which I think people who aren't staying at the hotel are going to be much more likely to use and then just maybe it's a space for some more creative kind of so you see the bike path indicate here all the way down to here and then you know so I think that then you get on the ramp and you come up to it and both there and at the entrance the other one some some graphic that's big enough yes that people know that they're headed that that's the way to head to the river something something you can see from State Street that would make sense yeah so I need to cop with signs and or some I'm not a designer I think we're finding signage is important we do have a plan which I don't know if you if this board will get involved in that but probably got a traffic plan I notice the package you sent home was more than 65 pages that was combination of the new stuff and the old stuff so we would have and I thought some of the pictures really did a good job of showing what it might look like at night that's the planning for the walkway between the hotel in the parking garage how wide it is for that the buildings are 10 feet face-to-face and then we're showing an 8-foot wide walkway and the walkway on the north side of the garage how wide is that walkway well the the constricting point would be the ramp and I believe the ramp is 60 wide and does that north walkway still put pedestrians in the path of cars entering and exiting the garage well if we go back to that civil engineering plan I had here a moment ago in this particular case you know there's there are crosswalks you know from State Street to the main entrance of the garage there's a major crosswalk here and also a crosswalk here so pedestrians are going to cross vehicle traffic at controlled points there and there after which they can go down here and through here and attach to bike pass without having any interactions with but my question is if you're coming from the east side of that north walkway heading west towards the new hotel on the north side of the garage wouldn't you encounter cars entering and exiting and you'd have to cross that to get to the protected walkway out if you're talking right here right there the entrance to the garage yeah that garage that secondary entrance is only there operationally for emergency purposes I think we learned from talking to the folks at St. Albans that every once in a while a car gets stalled or somebody gets in here and they can't figure out how to pay and they just lose it whatever that they that the exit could get blocked and so the city needs to be able to open up a secondary way to get people out operationally this is not meant to be used on a regular basis but wouldn't they have to cross the western north entrance to get to the walkway to get out to State Street I think anybody coming from the Heneelot is going to be going down through no I'm saying if you come in by the bank in between the Christ Church and the bank but you want to head over to the to the edge of the Heneelot or behind Christ Church wouldn't you encounter the traffic entering and exiting the garage right there you would yeah there's this crosswalk and what would be there to protect protect pedestrians yeah I have a traffic control plan I just have to find it we have showing stop signs to like aren't four-way stops extra dangerous for pedestrians because it can be confusing about whose turn it is to drive and you're watching the cars you're watching the pedestrians but that can be quite dangerous and again Mary just brought it up again that that's more of a DRB issue in terms of the access as opposed to the design review but we'll certainly make a note of that for the DRB committee to take a look at but there are regulations related to pedestrian safety so I'm hoping those are all in under consideration with the planning stage thank you So we can add it to the mariner's recommendations What's the DRB meeting? Monday of death Yeah Just coming Monday Coming Monday? Yeah And it's the Steve I think may be a really good idea if we as design review sent a note or had Mara this I didn't know about it Just got some talking points that are about items to be forwarded to the development of the report If you don't end up with a final recommendation tonight we can just make sure we agree on all the points that you want me to bring to them that aren't on the recommendation form Can somebody outline kind of a schedule on this? I'm getting really confused as to okay when do you need final approval? Well I mean We'll get it when we've earned it I guess But if everything went well for the city I think we would like to have final permits before the voters go to the poll on November 6th Oh You won't get final permits At least have final decisions Final decisions Or verbal decisions Okay Right You know there was a very strong goal to try to get this under construction in December A lot of pieces are going to have to fall in place before that can be a reality But you know having done this for 33 years now or whatever I can't make such predictions I mean it's entirely up to you how fast we go I feel like we've answered the substantive issues that were brought up before It sounds like we still have an issue on the fencing But I would hope that wouldn't be a reason to hold up the project Because we're happy to continue to talk about it It's just I think we need to know that there are major design issues Before the voters decide whether or not they want to do this And I believe there's somebody else who wants to Well I'm just concerned it sounds like you might be edging towards wrapping up And I never heard a point where you were asking for public comment So is this the time now or I'm happy to wait Now go right ahead Okay and questions Yourself as well Yeah I'm Sandy Vitztum I live at 14 Loomis Street And before I make general comments I wanted to say personally How excited I am that we might be getting a kind of good sized hotel in town I think it's going to make us as a city able to do a lot more things Culturally and for business than we have before I don't know if I've said this to this group But I happen to meet an independent contractor for national life From Maine and she was brought here for a week And she was put up in Waterbury along with 60 other people And they never ever came to downtown Montpelier in the whole week And I was shocked that as a city we were losing this kind of business opportunities I'm actually speaking tonight on behalf of the Montpelier Heritage Group I have a couple of questions because I've not become before this group before Although we've had other members here I mean at first ask questions that I think are specifically a design review And then in interest of time tell me of my other questions Which are going to be at the end If you would rather that they go to development review board Okay The first question is about the drawings The renderings that I've seen It seems to me they're applicable for a couple of reasons One it's permitted use downtown But we're trying to understand the gateway relationship Of this building Both coming along Memorial Drive But also it's kind of on the gateway down State Street towards a capital complex So I actually don't know that I've seen any from the ground renderings Except of the bike path And I'm totally wondering what this looks like from Memorial Drive If I were in a car driving by and would I see the state house Have those renderings been done? And I miss them You miss them Okay They've been presented on a couple of occasions Okay that's fine I understand you can miss them I'd love to see them sometime And also from State Street Have you folks looked at what this building is going to look like behind the Episcopal church Because for instance coming down Elm Street That's quite a very big important view in the city We presented views of that as well during the approval process for the hotel I don't know that we've revived those of late but From the ground level Yes Okay I'm trying to find them as we talk but That's fair I know that's kind of hard The other thing is typically balloons are flown and I mentioned that at a meeting a while ago I think it was a DRB meeting Have you indeed flown some balloons so that we can all see exactly the correlation between the renderings and reality No That was a city decision I'll let them discuss that But I believe flying balloons is a public hearing and it would have been warned So We were told not to do it Bill there was a question about flying balloons in the city's stance on that Can you come up to the microphone please We felt we were confident with the renderings as far as height and all that The various things we didn't think the balloon was necessary We consulted with our folks and didn't think it was necessary from a permitting perspective or everything else We had the information there's telephone poles there that are approximately the same height as the garage And they were pretty easy to look at so that was our call on The lights on they can hold up the board which you had from the boreal drive side You've got the, you're the light man People are ready for a light, here we go Right next to your arm Bill So that was The parking garage is coming right through here so if you're I think this was taken from like the shell station So even the church towers The end is way over here It's way over here I'm just going to That's to you from State Street I'm just going to suggest again that if the city were willing to fly some balloons And I know it's difficult because you're both the applicant and the reviewer in this situation But if you could fly balloons for three days Then people driving by could actually all see for themselves So this was not, this was done by someone else besides Correct, that was something that was presented by Stephen Whitaker at an earlier hearing Okay Then another question I hadn't really become aware of the alley until tonight And I actually, there must be some other accommodation for hotel guests With their little rolly wheels trying to get to the hotel Besides having to be outside and on the alley, I hope So that's one question And then in general I've talked about this at the DRB meeting I'm totally going to use this Now this seems to me we're trying to develop clear streets and clear walkways in the city When I grew up it was a village of back cuts, back shortcuts And then a lot of them are gone as we're trying to make the city more clear as an urban pattern So I think I heard, Bill, maybe you can correct me Is there, we're building a street out to between the garage Is it going to be a street or is an alley between the garage and State Street? Well, it's a complex of things It's a, it's a, in the first case there's a legal easement That's been granted to the city over Capitol Plaza To create essentially a private road that extends from Taylor Street Through the Capitol Plaza site and then back out to State Street Anybody who's experienced the parking area back there now knows It's a little chaotic in terms of how the parking spaces are laid out And circulation is kind of ad hoc, you know, it's just sort of what's left between the spaces This will organize that into sort of a clear circulation pattern Connecting those two major streets Essentially the trip from the Haney lot to the garage is similar Although that's not going to be something that's used on a regular basis For access to the garage It's really pedestrian bicycles, secondary access and other uses But essentially those, what you see today is what's going to be there Okay, so then in that case the city is creating more of a non-conforming lot And it has no street access except by an alley with an easement over it The zoning ordinance allows for lots to be connected by easements to the public way As long as they have the right dimensions and we have met that requirement And then this is functioning as a way in and out for 300 and however many vehicles I mean, they're not going to be there for 24 hours so it'll be more than 700 trips a day probably Well, we submitted a traffic analysis, I'll let that stand on its own But there's 206 spaces back there now that are used every day So this is like we're taking a cornfield and doing this This is a parking lot down there and building this garage will plant some existing parking lots Which offsets the impact a little bit But in the main by providing this parking it makes Christchurch's project more likely It makes all the downtown business owners have access to our parking So I just want to say that overall it feels like what is now a pretty sketchy road For Northfield Savings Bank between that and the church is going to be more of a road Particularly people who are not from the city trying to find a way to use the parking garage And it seems to me it needs to be a street That's a personal thought But if it is it needs to have a sidewalk on both sides It needs to have safe parking itself I'm wondering if you're going to lose some of the parking spaces that are in that kind of alley now Well, the plans have been submitted and the numbers have been counted I mean, we're going to have 348 spaces at the garage And we're going to have 55 spaces left on the surface of the Capitol Plaza That does not include the remainder of parking on the main lot Yeah, and then that was one of my questions How many spaces are you thinking you're going to lose on the Haney lot? 40 Okay Then my other I think pretty strictly design review question is about the solar collectors Which I had not heard of before tonight I think it's a great idea But in my experience with the Vermont towns and then actually other states If an owner is thinking of having a second phase That actually is supposed to be part of the first phase of permitting So I don't know why you would mention that you might do that in the future And that you're building for that potential But that's not being permitted now Because somebody in the public asked about it And we want to be, you know, we make all our projects solar ready Yeah, but then it should be part of the permit process, right? Well That's how it's typically done But I can deal with that But I don't know that the city is committing to build it today Can I address that? So the, as zoning administrator, if that were to go up It would be something that they would need to get another permit for before those were put on So they're just showing sort of a, my understanding And correct me if I'm wrong here This was sort of, like you said, a response to a public question as to how it might look And to show where they could put in the infrastructure so it could be done But it wouldn't get, it's not getting it through at all Usually if there's a leading towards the future of something It's better if it's included up front Just pointing that out It's better to have it done and say, okay, yep, it would work or not work My understanding is it wouldn't put you over the height limitations No, that wouldn't be a problem, because it's a 6C limit I don't know why it would be an issue It wouldn't increase, it wouldn't increase your FAR There's two issues And one is that the city is maxed out on their net zero metering situation So they don't necessarily, they can't necessarily just use a net metered solution for this And I think the other is budget wise, which it was And it wasn't part of the original charge And we've had to add some other features here to get this to where everybody finds it acceptable Obviously we want to include it in our thinking always Whether or not it happens right away is something that's really up to the city We just want to know that our design will accommodate it I'm just simply pointing out if it were a private owner making this application They would probably be asked to be more specific about it Even if it were a future phase, is my experience Okay, well I'm trying not to be vague The thing is we've included it in our thinking Because we didn't want to shut the door on it It came up as a question from the public And we explored the possibility But I haven't been told that I have an extra, I have a million dollars to spend Alright, well it's a question of future phase Then, and these are just things I want to ask to make sure Because I don't know How tall is the building in number of levels From the very lowest level of parking to the top level, is it four? That's what I'd heard Well they're essentially, but because the floor level is slow It kind of goes up in half increments I guess that it's tallest is four and a half stories Four and a half, okay, just curious And I know it has to be 20 feet back from the top of the bank, is that right? And there's absolutely no construction within 15 feet of the top of the bank For the riparian buffer zone Well, that's an open question I'm sorry So that, if you come to the DRB hearing Is that a DRB issue? In dealing with the water setback and the riparian buffers then It's not within the design review regulations So this can be really attractive I was guessing that's what I put it right at the end Oh, thank you All right, thanks Thank you Laura Rose again, could I just ask about from Main Street When you're looking across the Bicycle Bridge Wouldn't the garage obstruct the view of the capital there If I'm on Main Street at Shaw's and I'm looking Wouldn't the garage, especially with solar panels The towers itself, you said the garage was four and a half stories The towers are taller than that And the solar panels are even taller than that Should we get that far? So now I'm looking across from Shaw's, across the river I don't believe I can see the capital anymore It is a beautiful view from Main Street We submitted a visual analysis It's in the package What's interesting is the existing capital clause Is six stories tall And so this proposed hotel is five stories tall And the garage is four and a half stories tall We took a photograph from across the street there On Main Street looking down the bike streets And that's what you see It'll be right in the way Here's the garage Here's the garage Here's the capital building Here's the hotel We construct these things mathematically I will vouch for their accuracy I know people look at them and go I can't believe it There's a little tip of the dome and nothing else There's the dome This is the hotel that is Well this is the hotel that is previously permitted And here's the garage I just don't see the bottom of the dome I just see the part of it I'm not quite sure You see as much of it as you do today I don't know in the future It doesn't jump out as much as you think right there So that would be you submitted The most recent one to those on For the October 1st hearing That helps you find it on there For any of your boulders are labeled Yeah well they were all labeled But they're not on this drive They must be on the Batman Drive Maybe the City council for ten No that's something that's designed to be used today Yeah was it the 1926 city council maybe And you then I got them on the 1st I don't know I'm looking here What about that city council 926 No city council 926 I just don't see I don't see them in here unless they're in this set Sorry But we did submit that It's in the public record right And you've got a copy And they're available on the website On the city's website Did you have an additional question Yeah I just wanted to mention that That view there doesn't show the solar panels So I do think that the dome would disappear Should we be allowed to add the solar panels I just wanted to there's been very little Public discussion of the Fire safety In reading the report I know that the Montpelier fire department Recommended that there be Hoses in the stairwells Which would require of course heated stairwells Could this be An expense that could be avoided And wouldn't it result In a place where possibly Teenagers or homeless people Or other people may want to congregate A heated stairwell in a parking garage You could access it if you were kind of Behind the exit door The person exiting didn't see you And you grabbed the door Then you could be inside And you would be in the heating I know that the code requires That we have to be within 800 feet of a fire plug And I believe we're only 40 feet From the state street fire plug So I'm wondering about the expense Of heating the stairwells And also the expense of heating the roof To melt all of the Vermont snow Since there is nowhere to remove the snow too There's nowhere to push it To scoop it up in dump trucks What kind of cost are we looking at To melt Vermont snow all winter long Bill, I know you mentioned the Heating on the roof So there's a lot to unpack there But first of all We have agreed to the fire With the fire department that we would have A dry suppression system in the building Including dry standpipes in the stairwells What that means is both systems Normally don't have any water in them They have a Maintain a vacuum in the lines So that if a head ever deploys The system floods and then the water comes So, no, we wouldn't be Heating the stairwells We're not planning on heating any portion Of the building And the standpipes in the stairwells Which are the hose connections you talked about The standpipes are dry Unless they're charged It was in my discussion with the fire department That they said that that would have to be Heated to be functional Wasn't there a One small space that was heated Or did they do that We're still talking about the need For a server closet for the equipment That runs the parking equipment That's going to be handled with One little mini-split Because it has to be air conditioned as well Anyway, this is something we can bring up In front of the DRB Because it's not really the design But we're not planning on heating Any of the stairwells But you're heating the roof And that's part of the design It was requested by Public Works That we explore the use of district heat To melt the snow on the top deck That was one of two options That we discussed with Public Works To remove snow from the project There was a Tow behind snow melting device Which I still think is a good idea Because you can use it in more than one place But in either case Any snow collected Is going to get melted Rather than piled up I don't expect there to be a lot of snow On the intermediate layers It would just be the top layer That would require this I have no idea how much that's going to cost to run But the city has this district heat system Hot water to this site To have that possibility And so we've said yes I'm just wondering about The breakdown of the maintenance budget Because I'm sure the heating was considered In that, is it not a separate item In the budgeting? Yeah, I can't speak about budget Sites and bill issue Thank you First of all these aren't Design issues Second of all As Greg said We're not planning on any internal heat costs Because the building isn't going to be heated We're exploring district heat We're already paying and running the heat system So it would just be Have its own heat exchanger and come in Obviously we could Figure that in We're in negotiation with the hotel And ideally if we can Bring the line to them And use it for the garage Then it's a win for everybody In terms of that kind of thing So those are still being worked out With Greg and with the hotel But we don't expect a whole lot For heating costs We're pretty comfortable with our operation budget Really sorry, I forgot I had one more note I misread what I wrote So the other thing is I am a little bit concerned What is the height of the posts Underneath of the walkway And then pathway It shows up in some of your renderings As being elevated Along that ramp coming up Yeah They go from Nothing to 6 feet tall Because I know The police have had problems in the past Underneath some of our bridges The people living there in the winter And I also know that the Heaney lot Historically has had severe problems With drug use And actually probably doing Less than good things to young girls And I wonder If we're not creating A possible new village Location for these things to happen And I know security cameras can help with some of that But Maybe you're going to deal I'm sure you folks have thought about that It seems to me it's a design issue To have all of that square footage Up off the ground And I just If it's not design review issue I'd just like it to get on the list For development review. Thank you Well I sense you're looking for a response Things are on stilts and things in that area Because we're using that As a Portion of our flood control management program For these combined sites Dropping The grade at 518 For most of that area Offsets on a flood water That we can build this project Without increasing the impacts On flooding in the area We've conducted Extensive computer modeling of that And it turns out that The balance is close enough that If there were a flood That this project would impact By a few thousands on edge So Substantially neutral In terms of Its impact on flooding But that's why a lot of this stuff Is on stilts as opposed to just Filled up or buried That and we want to make sure That we maintain this garage As an open air garage Which doesn't require mechanical ventilation We just Make that By virtue of keeping the ground floor open Because the site against the church At the lowest level is completely buried So we need those openings to Have it mechanically ventilate the garage Which I think is a good thing And it is lit you said It is lit and I Understand that the police department Has been working with us on Getting the correct security system There will be cameras For the most part You know This was a design choice we could make That we don't have to have To be The stairwells don't have to be enclosed at all And sometimes That's a choice people can make Is to not enclose them But in this particular case Because this is qualified as an open garage We can enclose the intermediate levels With as much glass as we want And so that's what we'll do As you can see on the top of the stair towers They've got a bit of glass on them I think they're more user friendly When you can walk up on them Having somebody hiding behind the doors I didn't want to mention that Perhaps the northwest one could be Operational one at night Yeah we can always Limit access to those things With howler panic bars But I would hesitate offering that Unless there was somebody who lived next door Wanted to go around and turn them off occasionally So I don't have anything additional to offer Any further questions from the board Would you run Just quickly run down the items That we passed along to Okay so well and this is Are you in a space where You want to try and do a recommendation sheet Or is this a My taking thoughts to the DRB And then The application coming back to you again I'm prepared to vote Okay because I know the fence The picket fencing Is an issue And that's both along the The ramping And along the bottom Of the building So that's one thing you want to have a recommendation on You want to Do you want to have Bike racks on the boardwalk as well Or just inside the garage Or have it as an option Leave them as an option Okay To do A third, and or signs At Both of the different alleyway Entrances on both sides To make that welcoming Gonna make sure that I go through everything that I've got here Structural elements You like number one option Number one option Make sure it's muted Dark Black, gray, coloring So against what had to compete with the other components. Representation is for, as a placeholder only. Yeah, representation of placeholder only, and you want that as a competition, but within the scope of the design that we've, that you've decided upon. Yes. Okay. And then we've got any comments on the, I mean we talked about the head of the solar panels, but that's really just future. It needs to come back here. It would be another, another application. Yep. Again, it's conceptual only at this point. Yep. Good with the fixtures for the lights. The 3000 Kelvin warmth for lights is good, prefer black for the exterior fixtures, right? That's what they suggested in the plan. Okay. Good with the materials for the cornice. Cornice, thank you. No too much. We talked about GFRC as an option. We don't want EFIS. Okay. So GFRC is what you talked about. There was another option too, right? Collar or composite. Okay. And those are both okay. Yes. It'll be the same granite coloring. Yep. Yes. Yep. I have that. So. As are all the rest of the bands around the building. Typically the lower ones are actually granite. Okay. So it's only that, it's only that cornice that we're going to have made out of cornice. The cornice will be to match the granite that's on the rest of the building and it's an option of polymer composite or the GFRC. Okay. Right. Option to put in fixtures or mountings to be able to hang temporary banners over the large artwork. That's a good idea. Yes. And then like you said, that could be eyeballs below the cornice work. Yeah. We'll just, we'll figure out some, some attachment points and we'll just provide them so that people aren't drilling through my flashing system. Yeah. And maybe also make sure we run that by police department. Okay. Does that sound? What was the coloring of the flashing again on the top? Black. Okay. That's, I mean, that's the application. That's fine. Yeah. Steel frames going around the openings. It should be fairly easy to provide some eyeballs to. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's a good look. I hope all of you get a chance to see that our project up in South Burlington where we've used this detail because it's, it's, it's, it's on Schalberg Road. Yeah. It's near the McDonald's and there will be theaters down there. Yeah. So for the fencing, do you want that to come back or you just, there's a specific look you want for that? I don't think we need to hold it up. Okay. But it would be nice to have a better solution. Okay. Okay. We'll stipulate to that and make sure we show something to the development view board. Okay. And we can send, we can send it into staff so you can look at it before the development of view board meets. Functional, but classic. Basically, not what it is. Functional, but classic. Just something that's compatible with the rest of the building and with the rest of the entire property, the entire project. Okay. Because I didn't feel like I need to come to in the options to make them to back it up just a little bit. I apologize. Isn't that structural steel scheme number one? Yeah. Was that proposed to be powder coated black? Is that what I? Yeah, everything would get galvanized and powder coated. And I like the black because we're doing that with other things here. But you know, I mean, those bridges are often green or kind of rust, rust red. And the black. But I think with I think a rusty red kind of color would just flatten out with the brick. Black is fine. I'm happy with the black. I mean, that's what I'm doing in South Burlington. It looks sharp. It's classic looking and it's subtle. Yeah. And again, it's not competing with the greenery or the other components.  I wish somebody do riveting anymore. Welcome to it. I guess. Yeah, I mean, rivets would be perfect. So make sure that there's an opening in the security fence on the ground level on the east side. That wasn't actually in the presentation. Sorry, going through a bunch of different notes here to make sure we and you guys were all good with the renderings for the view sheds. Okay, I just wanted to make sure I think that's all I've got. The decking material we talked about tropical hardwood like the pay or something like that.  Okay, so black locusts preferred. Yeah, I don't know. What did they use on the Burlington mic mask? I think that's eBay. I believe because I'm astounded how well it's held up. It's a solid piece of material. It won't even burn. It's incredible. Oh, I put the side in the house. I am right now. It doesn't screw it. No, I'm pretty sure. It's a good way to break a lot of stainless steel fasteners. James, how do you spell that? I-P-E-B-I-P-E. Okay. So I also noticed iron woods. Okay, thank you. Okay, and I can get any of the details from the recording, I think. And that was the last item that was a decking option. If you have anything a little more, if you have any drawings that show the landscaping that you will go before the development. Is any of the landscaping supposed to be edible? Just kidding. No. Humans or deer? That's it. No. I was going to think I could. Were you hoping for berries or something? Well, it was going to be a possible solution to one of the production, getting people like this going like me, the things to plant on the raspberries or something. I'll break it. Yeah, no. He makes it not very interesting to get. I agree with that. There's something, yes. It just makes that. No, no. I thought the greenery. So you want them to, before it goes to before the DRB, you want them to do that? It would be helpful when you go to the DRB to, you know, show this, and then if you have a rendering showing the plantings you're proposing as well. The rendered plan has to be in there. Do you think that's sufficient? I think he's looking for us to merge them. I'll merge the route. Just merge that with this. Merge that. I'll break it down to that. Just we, you know, we certainly can. I, generally speaking, we turn that layer off because it covers up so much information that we're trying to share with you all about it. Just being able to see both would be easy enough to turn it back on. Be a nice perspective. But you'll be surprised at how much this gets covered up by trees. But it's going to cover everything when they're in full leaf. And a lot of 3D work on this one. Steve, my preference administratively, there's still some outstanding issues. Primary one I see is the signage and treatment of the two gateways. We have a meeting on the 5th for the, for the DRB. I would, I think this has been a lot of improvement from a procedural basis. I think it's hard to prove, provide things where there's approved things where you don't have as close to final plans as possible. I don't know what your schedule is on getting additional. That's the one thing that I would really like to see is that treatment and not, not just leave that hanging up in the air. And I think it's almost as a thinking about it as a precedent of sort of this is a big project. So it's a little bit different, but saying, well, you know, we're going to fix this. We're going to fix that. So I want my approval. We have a whole signage plan that we're showing to the DRB with traffic. Could it be a part of that? Yeah, I think he's just asking for that additional layer of wayfinding stuff. Yeah, because we have all the yield signs and stop signs and stuff. We've all been put down on that plan for part of the DRB. I probably should have come to us signing stuff. I know that we may not have authority over that, but certainly we're looking at an awful lot of signs. So the signage plan that we have right now is just stop signs, signs to 89 and Route 2, and like yield signs and no enter signs. They're all strictly traffic signs. Okay. The rest of the sign package that is like, here's here's the garage and that kind of stuff was going to be a separate application. Any kind of true signs, signs versus traffic signs. And there hadn't been much discussion about the kind of signage you're talking about yet. So without sort of going all the way into designing that though, I think it's okay for us to indicate on the site plan a couple of spots where we need to have that wayfinding sign stuff. Yeah, and I'm thinking of something more than just sign, something that's really kind of a welcoming design so that people know when they're walking down State Street, walking through that parking lot. This is the way you get to the river. Because for somebody who doesn't know, there's no way to know where the river is there. You're right. Could, does it make sense to have that as this is something that needs to come back with the rest of the signage package? That we, not the traffic signage, but wasn't there another layer of signage that we were thinking about? Well normally we would hand that off to somebody like Sparky Mahoganyl, the afternoon signs mounted on the building, the enter and exit signs and all of that. And it seems like some of this would not be on our property and it would be more of a city thing, perhaps. Well I understand what Eric said. I know what you're saying too. I'm just trying to figure out a way to make sure you have enough time to really give. Yeah, we'll break that as part of this or have that as a separate, I don't know. I just want to make sure that we're not approving some kind of an idea while we're gonna fix this. Yep, well that's what I'm saying. Either put it as a condition, ask the DRV to put it as a condition as they have to come back through the permit process to get that sign or bring it for on Monday. I'm just trying to, I'm just throwing out options. Yeah, I tell them on the fifth. Well, this would come first and other people who are currently on DRC for the fifth might get bumped. Because I think we have five or six applications for the fifth right now. I don't know. I just, I'm just, I think this is more than a sign issue. That's all. What do you feel comfortable with? I mean, you and I just have that as a total separate application to add on to this rather than have all that as part of this. If that implies we approve this as designed, I don't like that idea, because I think it needs to happen. You think it needs to have this sign. I think if we approve this and say this is gonna be a separate application, then the implication is, okay, whenever you want to do that, you can do it, you can apply for it. Do, well, you could put a time limit on when they have to apply for it, but you don't, if you don't like that, I'm just, I'm just trying to.  I don't know whether I'm just being too picky here. It feels to me like this is a big project that should probably happen and that, like being able to go to the voters before November 6th. Yeah, I mean, you know, we have a meeting on the fifth that should be fairly easy to look at the limited items and get that done, since we discussed this thing. So that would include this way-finding stuff that you're suggesting. Yeah. Something on the signs. What else would we have to have ready for Monday? What are the, oh, for the, just to show them the traffic management plan signs, you mean? Well, the sign stuff, I meant the fences. Yes, fences. I was looking at you, the fence, the fence back. If this cart creates too much of a problem, I guess. Like I said, we'll get our approval when we earn it. Mike, you have something to say? Yeah. I'm sorry, go ahead. Yeah, Mike Miller and the planning director. And so I just, the way-finding piece, I think, you know, my two cents on that would be, that's, there's a separate project that is being run by Montpelier alive for way-finding. I just don't think I would recommend developing a separate way-finding package just for the, just for this, and have it built into this. I would probably go and task the way-finding committee on Montpelier alive that's been doing the way-finding project for the rest of the downtown to go and simply make this consistent, you know, and develop a plan that's consistent with what they're doing for all the other way-finding. I'm thinking about more than the signs. So, Mike, in terms of designing entrances that have a, you know, a larger visibility, it's not just signing. It's making these entrances visible from the street and looking like entrances to the river. That's my point. It's signing, I'd find it, it's just signing. We can figure that out. So it's making structural differences to the building. I don't know what Greg would suggest in terms of doing that. And making sure that these are pretty obvious entrances. I don't know whether it's some kind of arch or canopy. Just an idea that that's some sort of symbolic gateway. Yeah, arts and street furnishings to reinforce the idea. Yeah, I think I get what you're driving at. You know, I'm just, I just would like to find an efficient way to get it back in the front of you is I don't think it's a lot. And I recognize and need to act on it and use something to the DR. I just observed that the connection between the garage and the hotel isn't really changed significantly from the prior approval. And that had a gateway to the river, the same walkway going through and none of this was required or asked at that time. We're all for doing this, but I do think perhaps we're adding a whole different standard and there is no signage now showing anyone going down through the Heaney parking lot to the hotel. So again, we're not opposed to it, but I am a little concerned about holding up a project, seeking a standard that is higher than an already approved project that's virtually identical. My two cents. Bill, I do think the project has changed enough in terms of blocking the river that we need to emphasize this access. And so I don't want to hold the project up. I just want to make our process something that if you want to do it conditional, that's fine, whatever. Now it's best to make that recommendation. I mean, it's your options. You can have it come back or you can have it as a, they need to show up to DRB, but it's not going to be your option to view it. It comes back on the fifth. How many things do we have that have a real, does it, the fence and the things that you really need to look at? Otherwise you've got clearly what your recommendations are. Also, unfortunately, I want to bring up one other thing, which is I don't feel like we talked about the railings other than they were talked about sort of as, I feel like... Right, so the fencing railing, yes, that's what we were saying, that if this comes back, that would be one of the things to show options. Like all those, what the public really interacts with, like touches and feels, like I want that to be... Yeah, those two things would come back. More than just like plopped there, but really understood. And maybe it is more than the way I understood it from this meeting.  Well, right, I mean, this shows the horizontal, what appears to look like a cable rail type system, and then the cut sheet for the gates that are on the building are not the same. No, I think we can deal with that, but... I don't want to hold the project up. No, I understand it, we're gonna send her something right away about that. If this were a condition expressed to the DRB, I can still come by and show you our solutions on the 5th, where you'd have the flexibility of not having to take a further vote on it or whatever. Either that, or have me back on it.  Well, and it can come back on the 5th, we just, some people may get bumped, that's all. We were looking at potentially bumping some people if somebody ran long on the 5th anyway. If you could have your motion ready to go, though, or however, you know, it's... Yeah, I mean, it's a recommendation for us, so, yeah. Let's do that. Okay. I'll come back on the 5th. I'll come back on the 5th. I'll try to address those two remaining issues, and then the rest of it will be recommendations forwarded to the Development Review Board. I can draft those up so that we can sort of have an attachment sheet for the recommendations Okay. Maybe I would make a motion, you know. Can we get it in advance? I'll send it over so we can approve the project. Well, I mean, we're talking, it's Monday now, we're talking the weekend today. I would make a motion that we approve the project with the exception of these three very specific items. Does that make any sense? No, that makes no sense. I mean, and then that those items need to come back to us. And then I would assume it would be very quick. And it would be before the DRV. Does that make sense to you, Bill? Or is that... I mean, I think you really can't... You know, I'm asking if I don't want to hang, just do some little thing, hang this project. I think the vote on November 6th is important, and I think that, like, if we're showing a vote of confidence towards something and not, like, holding it up, I feel like that offers our community some sort of something. And you know, gonna have a hot news item, and I said since November 5th, it's just one day before November 6th. Well, but I think there's a lot of banter about it going around in front porch forum and various other places. And if there is at least some sort of non-former committee that this... Can we go through the list and approve it and then just put the condition? I don't think, I think don't, I don't know as you can, yeah, if you can't partially approve it, what you can, and maybe Mike's still here, Mike knows this a little better than I have, I think what you can do is maybe just say those are the last three items that you want to review. Yeah, can we... I mean, with the whole, everything's still be open for further discussion at the next hearing. And I think you can close just part of the evidence. Can we... But I also don't think you can... Can we scrawl a poll, and then we can approve it. Yeah, I don't think you can approve it. You can, I mean, we've discussed already that the gateway sort of entrances and the railings and fence, those are the last items that you need to, that you want more information. We've scrawled poll before, though. Can we scrawl poll now? That's bad for me, right? Procedurally, I think you can scrawl poll early. I think you can certainly go through and make a process decision that would go through and say we're only going to consider these three items. The hearing itself, technically, is open to everything. So if the public had concerns about design elements that you've already made your decisions on, I think you're obligated to, because the decision is still open. But from how you manage yourselves, you guys can go and say, we're not asking Greg to revise anything other than what we're giving him, and he's agreed to come back to talk to us on these three points, and we're gonna constrain ourselves just to these three points. That I think would be the prospect. I don't think there would be a, there could be a straw poll. It wouldn't be binding. That would be my interpretation. I think that's the point. I think the straw poll was that everything's acceptable. But again, those three items would like to take a look at. The railing, is there any way to show a, I mean, we've seen some of the other, some of the other pictorials of what it looks like from the front, but nothing like this showing from the side. Okay. You're asking for an elevation from where? Landscaping, so in other words, what we'd be looking at is a color representation of what this looks like from State Street. Like an elevation or a perspective? A perspective, just like this. Just like that, just. So you can see what that entrance looks like going between the buildings and on this side. You're suggesting, I couldn't see what you're pointing at, but looking down the whole parking lot, with everything, with this new package here, is there a way to show a perspective looking at it from State Street. So you see what it actually looks like. From State Street? From State Street. And we saw some of the earlier. The other versions we did. But to then put in the more welcoming entrance possibilities, right, for the pathways. That way you're including your landscape plan, again, and a color representation of what it's actually gonna look like when you're walking down to that entryway to come to the back of the building. So we are in Northern Elevation, or a perspective, okay. And I think some suggestions for signage. You're not designing the signage, right? Right. So about some suggestions for sign content and location would be a really helpful thing. Right, okay. Yeah, I think we'll sort of say there's gonna be a sign here. It's gonna be this big and this is the purpose of it. And then when Sparky Potter or the committee that's doing this around town comes up with what they're supposed to look like everywhere. Because I saw a presentation by that group. You know, they've got things that are gonna hang on street walls and stuff. You know, I think we definitely want to be keyed into that. I think Mike's right. I mean, this is something that wants to be integrated. So how do we do this? Take a straw boat and then say this is a straw boat. But in that next meeting, we're gonna kind of consider these three. Yes. That makes sense to me. I don't vote. So, no. With the exception of the three items to be addressed at the next meeting on the 5th, all everybody who is in favor of the other components raise your hand. Right where you had it was left. Yeah, obviously a lot of moving parts to this. Some other things are getting done. So I've got more time to focus on that. But we'll get that to you as quickly as we can this week. Thank you for your time. Thanks guys. And again, thank you. We can get copies of that as soon as possible. We'll look at it and you know. Some of it will come quickly. I think we're gonna have to take some time to think about what Eric wants. Cause I think it's more than one idea, I think that we have to have. And all of us can deal with some other stuff. From looking for the same stuff. Well, I'll send it to the staff. Yeah. Right, she can share. No, I understand whether it's an elevation of respect to all of us. Thank you. We'll have this back. We're getting there. It takes this. It might have been in the bigger packet where we had it, but it didn't open that well. But again, all we're seeing is the other side. We have to go there tonight. I like coming to the mall too, here. You know what I'm saying. Yeah, I know what you're saying. I feel like they ought to start the commuter round. Let's try. Thank you. Thank you. So, here's a question for you. I know we need to wrap everything up, but I do have packets for Monday with me right now for everything else that's currently on the agenda. Do you want to wait until I get everything that Greg is going to provide, and then put it all together so you have everything in one envelope? Yes. OK, I'm going to hold on to those then, and then get them all in the. If we can either get printed material or by email or whatever for the additional items. I mean, that's hopefully it'll be printed and just added to these packets that I have now and then put. But I'd like to get that as soon as possible. Yeah. If you can do it in the next couple of days, I would just get that sooner than later. Yeah, I agree. If for some reason I haven't gotten that from him before the end of the day Thursday, these packets are going to go at the police station to pick up. And then hopefully I can just email it to you because Audra's out of the office. So try to make sure you get that through proper channels. And I will write up what we've got in here for the recommendation sheet so that you guys can review that and mark it up if you need to show you have a script for. It's hard. There are a lot of moving parts of this. And usually we review much smaller projects. And we ask for specifics on smaller projects. We have one. Yeah. And they're like the fencing, the fencing of the railings. That's sort of, you know, it should look better and be more specific. So, and again, that would be sort of between the rock and the hard place because you don't want to hold it up. Hold it up and you want it to be complete. Who knows what's going to happen with this? But I want to be able to be confident. The design review has done its due diligence within this. Push it along because I can accept that. I accept that, Eric. I understand the deadline is not perfectly where your work was, you know. I just did want to sort of at least show some confidence to the world that we're behind the project. And then some of the items, you know, like everything, someone peers. Who knows? It might become a homeless in Kavanaugh underneath. But you deal with a lot of that stuff. That's a police issue. Yeah. As you need to. And at some point in time, if they need to do some six-inch metal fencing underneath, we hope not to lock it off. Maybe you do what you need to do. Right. That's very solution. But yeah, it's hard. So do we need to adjourn at this point? Or are there other business? We need to. We have agreed to table that and coming back with the three items on the fifth. Right. And everybody, I mean, we didn't make a motion. I just mean, yeah. Yes. I'm just doing the other business and adjournment. So are you still recording? Yeah. Because we haven't adjourned yet. So we'll hear a motion to adjourn. Yes. And the next meeting will be back here on November the 5th. I second that motion. Second, all in favor. OK, back on the fifth.