What is up welcome back do you like to do it build it or make it so do we and we have a new video each week this week we're doing project runway workshop style that's right we turned a 90s office space into a DIY workshop because this week we're hosting our very first one for friends and family this is the front room as soon as you come into our space this is the first room that you walk into and as you can see it was definitely decorated as a 90s office space complete with blue carpet tiles and gray walls it can't get any more boring than this it was actually a little rascal showroom step one tear it down so we were removing all of the carpet tiles these had adhesive on the back so they were pretty easy to peel up we did the old Tom Sawyer on the kids and tricked them into removing the tiles for us we did we told them how fun it was and any of the glue and schmutz that was left over we just use a chisel to scrape it up off of the floor actually they use the chisel to scrape it up off of the floor step two replace the floor we're using vinyl plank flooring here this is style selections barnwood plank tiles it's peel and stick they're just like giant stickers but I did have to start in the center and try to get all my staggering correct so that again I could Tom Sawyer the kids into helping out lay the floor and you see me in most of this video because the boys would only tile in the middle of the floor when they got towards the wall I had the hard job of measuring the remaining tile piece that needed to be cut and stuck but you know what it was super easy you use an exacto knife and score it and snap it it's super simple we did this in about one day's time we did it the first second half of one day and the first half of the next day yeah well that's only because there was a very long lunch in between look at look at how it automatically brings so much life to this space just with the new flooring I mean you can hardly hate the gray walls at this point because they match pretty good with the floor I mean it really brightened it up but then there's a one heck of an echo now step three time to do the walls now we are leasing this space so we were a little nervous to add some brick to directly to the wall or add some shiplap directly to the wall because we know that when we do move we're gonna have to tear it down and put everything back the way it was so we chose to use this paneling that looks like shiplap boards it looks like barnwood door yeah it looks like barnwood planks but it's really only like eighth inch thick same with brick it's only like eighth inch thick and it looks pretty brick like yeah I mean if I really wanted a brick wall I think that that that looks pretty cool yeah but they came in the kids looked at it and said well I don't know about the brick well they didn't know we had big plans for this brick but we got the paneling up and so I laid the panel up and I just hit it with a one-inch brad the nail not the guy to hold it in place and then I strategically placed a couple of drywall screws I put them in the knots and in the cracks tried to hide them he did a great job hiding them I'll tell you if you ever have to nail paneling up like this find the knots in the wood and he put the screw right in there and you couldn't even see them I painted the screw had the same color yeah you couldn't even see it you back about two feet away maybe it's just my eyes but couldn't even see it you couldn't step four add the German schmere now this was our plan all along we were never gonna leave the brick here but we did want to make it that whitewashed look so we covered the brick paneling with premixed mortar yeah with tile mastic it's premixed mortar that's over there in the tile section and you'll see the buckets we have here it took two buckets to complete this job and it looks it looks great we used plastic putty knives to apply it and we tried to get it in where the cement would be I guess the black parts really cover up the black parts and kind of exposed some of the bricks and the tricky part was trying to hide the seam without looking like we're trying to hide the seam those plastic putty knives seem to work great we just scooped it on the knife and then scraped it against the brick and you know the harder pressure that you put on it the more exposed the brick was the lighter pressure the more mortar you had and to do these three panels it did take every ounce of the two gallons of the premixed mortar yeah here this last panel you'll see my job at the end was to see how much mortar I could get out of that bucket and then even went back to the first bucket to scrape out what I could put some gloves on it was using her hand to try to get every ounce of that stuff I did but look we finished it Garrett went to the top scraped off a little and added it to the bottom so two buckets three panels three panels and she's giving a little sponge bath at the end I went back with a wet sponge and anywhere where the scraper trowel scratched maybe the mortar a little bit I used the sponge so level that out smooth it out take out those rough edges kind of make it look a little more worn and not fresh that's right and anywhere where the mortar was too thick this also washed out some of that a little bit so if it was too piled up in one area I could wash it with the sponge and once we got the German smear up we noticed that the gray paneling the gray barnwood paneling looked really dark then really it was white washed paneling and I thought that would be perfect for this space but it still looked dark after we put the white smear on there so Garrett's bright idea which was perfect it worked out he did a white wash in the paint so we just had some water in the bottom of the bucket added a little paint was super thin we just put the sponge in there and wipe the whole wall with a sponge and it gave it this nice extra white look to it it also gave my hands an extra coating of paint gloves I didn't wear gloves I had to get it I thought it was watery and it would wash right off it did not I had gloves for like the whole night white gloves like I felt like Mickey Mouse step six add the trim so now we have our paneling on the walls the walls are nine feet and our paneling is eight feet so we purposely added some color to the top you'll see we added a little blue up there and then we put this white trim to cap the top and the bottom so it looks framed it gives it more of a farmhouse look yeah we just use some one by fives and painted them white and then at the top and bottom we tried to find the studs so they would actually kind of hold the panels in place to not just my strategic screws because this is a commercial space those studs are metal studs but he was able to use those drywall screws and get right through the wood and into the metal stud you can really tell where it was attached to the wall very strong yeah and then for the side panels as we as we brought those together and covered those up with the piece of trim we use the just a little bit of that classic gorilla glue yeah and then a couple of brad nails to hold it until the gorilla glue would take hold but we figured we'd be able to chip that off or just break it off when we take those panels off step seven add some shelving well we made some rope shelves we have a video a whole video about how we made the rope shelves we did that one last week and then we made a couple of paint shelves eight paint shelves again we use some one by fives and a one by two just pin them together with a one or a quarter inch brad the nail not the guy and then hung them on the wall with some L brackets step eight make the workshop tables gotta have a place to sit and work yeah gotta have a place to take a nap i'll probably find him out there one day out there on the table i'll totally be taking a nap on the table we use some plans from shanty to chic these were workbench tables the only change we made to these plans is we didn't cut the tops down to fit the tables exactly we left the four by eight sheet of three quarter inch mdf and it leaves an overhang so folks can slide up and put their knees under the table yeah there's like a 12-inch overhang on the sides i guess and then a six and a half inch overhang on the sides as well and i don't know which are the ends and which are the sides i had to make four of these workshop tables so again i tom soyard our our kids into helping me out and we threw a couple of them together and then i had to take a break midway through to go do a live with kim on tuesday uh tuesday live if you look inside the door there you can see you might be able to glimpse us standing there talking to the camera now it took me just as long to cut all the wood as it did to just assemble everything these were super easy i made all four in about eight hours it was a simple frame at the bottom some two by four and two by six legs and then a frame at the top i centered each top put a pilot hole about eight pilot holes around the top added a drywall screw just to hold it in place i don't think anybody will be picking these up by the tops but i don't want it to slide around well and we plan to put craft paper over each of these tables for each workshop like we do with our uh filming studio space we add that white paper onto our desktop every time we plan to do the same out here and that way folks can get sane get paint on them and hopefully we'll keep the tables looking nice keep them crisp and clean a little while gotta make it gotta keep it looking like a hospital like a farmhouse hospital step nine add a sign always be branding we gotta label our space we cut this on the large laser this is 48 inches wide and 20 inches tall we painted this just like we would paint any door around it was a very simple sign to make and used our regular starbound thick to glue it together but we did leave off the m e and the t and then we used those spaces to put some drywall screws in and attach it to the wall then we glued the letters back on kind of hide the screws can't even tell how is it how is it hanging there how is it even up there it's magic step 10 now we have the accents this one is the funnest part of the whole project because it really brought the space together we added paint on the paint shelves we brought in some of the old projects from our previous videos hung those on the wall to give it that farmhouse decor we added all of the spring and summer signs to the rope shelves to give it options for new projects and new ideas for the next time you want to come in for a workshop it's looking inviting so what do you think do you like what we've done with the place it doesn't look so grungy and fifties anymore what was your favorite part this week is the tables do you notice any of your favorite videos on the back wall here we tried to use some old video stuff how far away do you live you enjoyed what kind of car do you drive you get good miles to the gallon come see us a big thank you to the patrons but it looks like we're about out of time so unless you're joining us for the patron after show we'll see you next week where we do it build it and make it again let's see how this goes Kim let's see whoa whoa whoa


What kind of world do I want to live in? I think about this question a lot. For our generation and for specifically my group of people, which is refugees, the circumstances might dismantle any vision of the future that we have. You're trying to rebuild, you're trying to make a future for yourself, and then the climate-related disaster can only start again.  The first step to understand is that we're all a part of it. None of us are going to be left out by the crisis. We're at a stage where if we don't act now, really there won't be very much left. There are generations that will never see certain things that we grew up seeing in real life. We have to start treating this like the emergency it is to achieve the 17 sustainable development goals. We have to go from an intention to a serious commitment. Business leaders really need to rethink how they conduct their business and invest in creating systems that are climate friendly. The action I would like to see is accountability. Structures being put in place where countries aren't just asked to do something, but they're kept accountable to the decisions that they make. There has to be that strong collaboration between government, between corporations, between youth activists to drive change forward. The world I would want to live in is a world where imagining the future is not a privilege. I want to live in a world where people do not give up on hope. Hope that a positive change is possible. The fact that you're listening today means that you are willing to make a change. A very warm welcome to everyone. Thank you for joining us today for this important conversation, Globalizing the Sustainable Mobility Transition. As a short introduction, I'm Jessica Chiang, Managing Director of EcoBusiness, and I'm delighted to be your moderator today. I'm happy to share that this opening segment that is commenting now, which will set the context of our discussion, will be on the record and made publicly available after the session. I'd also like to thank the World Economic Forum for the invitation to moderate this panel, which is a topic very close to my heart. In my other head, I sit on the Board of Directors of Comfort Derigo Group, which is listed on the Singapore Exchange and is one of the world's largest transport companies with major operations in Singapore, Australia, China, and the UK. I chair the Board Sustainability Committee, which has been grappling with this very issue of how to globalize and accelerate a sustainable mobility transition. There is no doubt that the mobility sector is undergoing a revolution. There is fresh urgency to decarbonize the sector in an equitable, sustainable way, and this is forcing a reimagination of how to move people and goods across the globe. This conversation is an important and timely one, as climate ambition and action gathers momentum around the globe in the lead-up to the COP26 climate talks due to be held in November. By 2040, more than half of the new car sold globally will be electric vehicles, shared in autonomous solutions for also drastically disrupt the mobility landscape. These trends will have deep implications and requires thoughtful planning and countries are to reap the benefits of cleaner air, energy security, and more affordable transport options. If we are to achieve an equitable and sustainable global mobility system, it will require deep public and private sector partnership. And to this end, the World Economic Forum's Global New Mobility Coalition is a multi-stakeholder initiative seeking to activate the sustainable mobility in cities by fostering public-private collaboration. The fundamental mobility vision is to catalyse supply and demand for a carbon-neutral mobility ecosystem by 2050. So today, we will speak with some of the leading voices from the public, private, and civil society around the world who will share their insights on how we can shape this future together. I now like to introduce our distinguished panelists. We have with us Miriam Al-Faudri, Group Chief Marketing Officer Agility Singapore, Glinda Bhathan-Batterina, Deputy Executive Director, Clean Air Asia, Philippines, Iris Chang, Director, Sustainability and Social Impact, Grab, Singapore, Gunjan Krishna, Commissioner for Industrial Development and Director, Industries and Commerce, Government of Karnataka, India, as well as Theodor Svajima, Member of the Group Executive Committee, Chief Communications and Sustainability Officer, ABB Switzerland. We have a lot of ground to cover, so I'm going to dive right in. And Theodor, we'll start with you. How do you define sustainable mobility and how is ABB supporting a sustainable transition for industry and society? First, thank you very much, Jessica, and also thank you to the World Economic Forum for inviting ABB to participate in myself in this very important discussion today. Sustainable mobility is really at the heart of what we do at ABB as a global technology company. For us, it's all about provisioning lower CO emission transport in an efficient and intelligent manner for people and goods to make them accessible, equitable and affordable, which is also a very important thing. Given that transport accounts also for up to a third of the world's greenhouse gas emissions today, sustainable mobility will really be crucial for achieving all the targets set in the Paris agreement. At ABB, we provide our customers with various different mobility solutions, which are sustainable. Actually, the company was founded on the electrification of rainways in Switzerland and Sweden, our two home countries over 130 years ago, and we're still very much actively involved in electrifying rain transport, but also road transport from cars or for too many charging of buses and trucks, but also at sea. So electric propulsion systems for various types of ships. Today, we're also the leading global provider of electric fast charging technology for e-vehicles, and we are very proud to have installed more than 460,000 electric vehicle chargers in more than 88 markets around the world so far, and this is a business as you can understand, which is at the moment growing very much. So at ABB, providing infrastructure and solutions for sustainable mobility is really part of our commitment to driving a more sustainable world, and it's at the center of our company's purpose and the value that we provide on a daily basis to our customers and society. And when we do this, we always seek to balance the needs of both society, the environment, and of course the economy overall. Last year, we launched our 2030 sustainability strategy in which we committed to improving sustainability across ABB's entire value chain, and I want to highlight one of the main commitments that we made, which is to help our customers reduce their annual emissions by at least 100 megatons on an annual basis in 2030. This is the equivalent of the annual emissions of more than 30 million combustion cars. We will also lead by example in our own operations by becoming carbon neutral by 2030 or earlier, and to achieve this goal, we have committed to transitioning our entire fleet of more than 10,000 vehicles to non-emitting, preferably electric, but as well as sourcing all our energy from renewables and drive energy management across our global sites. And we are very advanced already in these states and we are very proud, as I said before, to be a key leader in driving the electrical vehicle charging infrastructure, and we are very well-advanced at this already and in some places of the world, like for example, Northwest Europe. Thank you so much, Theodore. I'm sure we have many questions for you. I want to turn to Maryam now. Agility has had a long history as a logistics provider and has recently made some major investments in new mobility companies. What innovations and new solutions do you think will be key to the transition to a carbonized, efficient and inclusive passengers and goods mobility sector? Thank you very much, Jessica. So Agility used to be a global logistics company operating in 100 countries and we sold that part of the business, but we have that history of being a road freight operator, particularly in emerging markets. And now we're moving very much into being an investor in the supply chain space and we've been early investors in some very interesting companies in the sustainable mobility space. And I will say one of the things that has become really clear to us at Agility as we think about our future is that there is no one-size-fits-all solution. I mean, it sounds like a very obvious thing to say, but it's very clear that different countries and different regions of the world link to their economic trajectory and a number of other localized factors are really in different spaces when it comes to the ability to adopt new technologies. And I think that's really important because when we think about emerging markets in particular, when I think about markets across Asia, the Middle East and Africa, one of the huge issues that will need to be resolved is what you do with existing infrastructure. So although the technology exists to really leapfrog several steps forward, you still have the problem of an economy that is heavily based around fossil fuels and this existing infrastructure that needs to be dealt with. And I think one of the areas that we're really interested in investing in is these pragmatic solutions that address the issue of existing infrastructure. And I'll give you two examples that I think are interesting. We were investors in a company called Hylion that essentially turns an existing fleet into a hybrid with a very simple retrofit. And one of the things that really attracted us to that technology, in addition to the fact that it's groundbreaking, is that it gives you a very quick solution to a fleet that you already have, which you can imagine certainly in emerging markets where even upgrading a model is an issue, making leapfrogging ahead of completely different technology very quickly is often just not practical. And another example of a company that we invested in is a company called Swivel. And this is a shared mobility platform and it's sort of quasi private mass transportation. So essentially the story of this company is that in Egypt, after many years of a depressed economy, there were a number of tourist vans that were not being utilized because tourists weren't coming to Egypt for various reasons, economic and political and so on. So this company started putting these vans back in the road basically on bus routes and using these existing fleets in new ways. And I think both of these companies, what they have in common is the idea that there's a practical, you know, interim step for emerging markets and I think that's a really important thing to think about in these discussions. Thank you so much, Maryam. And the emerging markets really are where we're seeing all the innovations in mobility, I think. So I think there's some really interesting areas that we can explore there later as well. I'd now like to turn to Iris. Grad provides a number of services to its platform. I am a user too, including ride hailing. What are the barriers to electrification that are facing ride hailing operations now and how can we possibly co-design regulation that balances the needs of the environment and livelihoods and the business of drivers and riders? That's a great question. Thanks so much, Jessica. So I guess for Grab, we operate across eight countries in Southeast Asia and Singapore is the only developed country in that space, right? Everywhere else, Indonesia, Vietnam, Malaysia, Philippines, Thailand, Cambodia and Myanmar are actually a very big challenge in terms of electrification and for quite a few reasons, right? So I think firstly, these countries itself are still largely brown grid, right? And they don't even have intentions like in the States or in Europe where trillions of dollars are being earmarked for greener grids. So I think therein lies, even if we were to electrify all the cars, it's still not a very, I guess, long-term solution of reducing that carbon that will be emitted from transportation. I think secondly, if you look at infrastructure, while Singapore has a very clear plan to get there, but for the other countries, it's a very chicken and egg situation, right? Like you don't have enough cars, why would there be charging stations? What about maintenance? So there's a lot of infrastructure that is lacking and we've actually ran pilots, EV pilots with our drivers for motorbikes as well as our cars in countries like Indonesia and Singapore and even in Singapore, okay? The drivers are coming back and saying that the barriers are just that, you know, it takes so long to charge their vehicles. It takes like one to two hours every day while they are driving just to recharge and this time that they take would obviously mean trading off earning opportunities, right? So that lack of, I guess, fast charging, that lack of innovation in, you know, battery capacity, so all of these sort of like draw into the whole lack of infrastructure and technology. On top of cost of ownership, which, you know, today it's still a high compared to petrol cars and lastly one of the facts is that the cars that are designed for electrification today is not designed for ride hailing. Meaning you say like if you look at price points they are aimed at the middle upper class. It's not designed for sizing for boots, sizing for passengers. It's still not ideal for the type of drivers that actually are serving on our platform. So all of these are challenges that we face today in electrification. And I guess when we think about the government there's a couple of things that we are hoping to drive and move forward in our partnerships with them. So one of it would be I guess for us we actually have a very big reach. We have like 24 almost 25 million monthly active users on our platform and actually we would really like to be able to partner with them to play a part in public education and not just that but, you know, recently we also launched a couple of features like for example our carbon offset feature where it's in the app that a customer can just easily toggle to contribute for offsets. We are trying to use technology to reinforce education and make it easy for them to take action because just so many of them are, you know, even though they are aware they find that it's very, very hard to actually take action in this space. The second being how do we work with governments to actually think about financing right, financing schemes especially for this group of drive partners that we have on our platform where they are actually economically, you know, challenged in that respect, right. So already hard enough to put food on the table, maintain the current car now we are saying, hey, you know how do you change to an electric car or a hybrid that's a very, very big problem to be made even in the name of environmental, right and lastly, I guess as a tech company naturally we have a lot of data that we can, you know, aid governments with urban planning green infrastructure developments so I guess you know, in that respect we can definitely add value to governments and we are trying to partner with them that way. Thank you so much Iris for that overview it was very interesting that you mentioned how infrastructure really needs to be keeping up with this electrification revolution and there's still a lot of pain points there and then the public education, you know carbon offsets piece is also super important if we are going to get mass adoption by transport consumers to these more sustainable modes so thank you for those perspectives we've heard from the business sector now regarding the mechanism supporting decarbonisation and the return to Gunjan commissioner Karnataka is a leading region in the EV sector thanks to how it forces innovation and attracts investment can you shed some light for us on your experience in fostering sustainable businesses in this sector and how has regulation enabled a strong ecosystem Thanks Jessica and thanks a lot for giving me this opportunity today to be part of the World Economic Forum globalising sustainable mobility transition talking about Karnataka Karnataka is one of the lighthouse state of the country when it comes to electric mobility we totally stand for sustainability in fact if you look at the total renewable energy that is produced within the state 63% of our energy comes from the renewable sources so that shows our commitment to sustainability now talking about sustainable mobility in particular we are actually looking at the ecosystem approach now ecosystem approach has got various components now if we look at the components we are talking about the policy there is a strong policy pull that we are creating for all the players to come and participate in the electric mobility sector within the state to come out with the exclusive EV policy in 2017 we have updated keeping up with the times we have updated our policy also the whole focus there is essentially the supply side incentives so we are looking at manufacturers we are promoting manufacturers to set up their electric vehicle manufacturing within the state for that we are giving turnover subsidies some capital subsidies we are asking them to create charging infrastructure so we are giving subsidies on the creation of the charging infrastructure so that is one part of it that we are looking at from the policy from the regulatory side what we are looking at is how we can ensure and mandate all our buildings all our commercial complexes, metro stations to mandate them to have necessarily electric vehicle charging stations so that is what we are creating an ecosystem for these charging stations to be created in the cities along the national highway so we are coming out already we have in place within the Bangalore city around 125 charging stations and we plan to scale them to 600 charging stations we are working very closely with the private players for setting up these high speed charging stations along the national highways so that comes in the regulatory part and also from the demand side if I were to look at it we have ensured that all the electric vehicles registration there are no charges to be paid similarly road tax they do not have to pay so that is kind of incentives given to the buyers of the electric vehicles we are also talking about cluster of roads so 50 kilometers away from Bangalore city as you all know Bangalore is a tech hub and the tech innovation city in the world we are setting up a cluster where you will have a testing center the testing track for the EV vehicles so that and also we are going to create an innovation center so where in the academia the industries the start-ups we have a very rich ecosystem of 45 plus start-ups which are working in this area we are also working very closely with these start-ups to understand how we can de-link the industry from the vehicle because the major cost 40 to 50 percent cost is from the battery so here we are trying to work out innovative business models where in swapping centers and so that can be monetized in that ways and there would be only cost would be because the high cost of the electric vehicle is one of the problems which the people face for broad basing the electric vehicle so that again that we are working in the important aspect is retrofitting because we understand in Karnataka or in India we have to look at that more and more people buy electric vehicles and the one of the quick gains we can have in this sector is by ensuring that two wheelers and three wheelers particularly which are used in the fleet can be retrofitted and we are planning to keep a target of say 100,000 vehicles in a year can be converted retrofitted so that we can have these two or three wheelers on the roads and that would help to spur the demand of the electric vehicles within and create the ecosystem so our idea essentially is to have both supply side demand side create the ecosystem the infrastructure that is required have the innovative inputs that are required with the help of all these stakeholders and give that push that is required for this to become sustainable Thank you so much Commissioner I think you've just proven that government intervention and cooperation is so important for us to really transition into a more sustainable mobility ecosystem Last but not least I'd like to turn to Glinda in terms of mobility regulation and financing this transition what do you think needs to happen to change the system into a more sustainable mobility system in Southeast Asia what is your organization doing to assist governments in the region Thank you very much Jessica I'd like to give a little bit of context on the situation in developing Asian countries Road transport in this region is characterized by high public mass transport ridership still a majority of trips are by public transport and mass transit buses paratransit modes and travelers that provide a valuable mobility service to society are often forgotten in the mobility transition if we are to include them in this transition we need to focus on the unique challenges they face and I take the example of the challenge of paratransit modes such as the jeepneys the famous jeepneys in the Philippines their challenge is really the high capital investment needed for replacing their vehicles with cleaner ones most of these jeepneys are in need of upgrading as they run on second hand engines some more than 10 years old usually unmaintained diesel run and highly polluting vehicles with high vehicle kilometers travels and this transport mode should really be prioritized in government programs to shift to electric mobility currently purchased subsidies are insufficient to allow them to invest in new electric vehicles so how could we help them then they'll need to be organized and professionalized into transport cooperatives that purchase and manage fleets of vehicles and for this to succeed they'll need training and organizational development and management skills they'll need to understand the technology the financial implications for shifting to EVs will need to be replaced in the future and another public transport mode in developing Asian countries are the three wheelers or the tuk-tuk the rickshaws or tricycles as we call them in the Philippines they provide valuable last mile service to a majority of people and what they need is access to micro financing and clear regulations on where they're allowed to travel the models that reduce the upfront cost of investment are also needed to help them participate in the mobility transition now Cleaner Asia a 20 year old international NGO based in Asia we facilitate the participatory electric vehicle roadmap development led by government agencies but involving private sector academia civil society groups and the operators and drivers the the paratransit modes and the three wheelers we aim to ensure the concerns of these sectors are considered in the electric vehicle road maps of countries thank you so much Dinda for that perspective and so relevant to remind us that a lot of the mass transport are still the two wheelers and we must include them in this transition on that note I want to thank all our speakers and viewers for joining us in this first part of the discussion please do contact the global new mobility coalition team at the forum to support the forum's efforts to sync shared electric connected autonomous mobility technologies we will be concluding this segment now so thank you very much


Thank you for the introduction This is embarrassing. I need to fix my screen Okay, that fixed. Yes. Okay computer scientists are excellent at technology. Okay, so This is a panel with so I'm the least renowned person on this stage So I'm gonna introduce our lovely panelists and then I'll explain what we're doing here So to my right is Julia Angwin who is an awesome Investigative journalist at ProPublica, which is a non-profit investigative journalism Organization she has written a book about surveillance called Dragonite Nation She used to be at the Wall Street Journal where she led a privacy investigative team. So she is awesome and super great to Next we have Jack Gillum who is an investigative reporter at the AP the Associative Press And he focuses on technology and surveillance and government accountability He spent the last year uncovering a US government plan to overthrow Cuba using fake social media So you may have heard about this story and to And I think our last panelist needs no introduction here But I'll do so anyway Laura Poitras is a documentary filmmaker a Pulitzer prize winner a poke award winner an Oscar nominee For a citizen for the film that will be showing right after this and my role here as it was explained I live in the ivory tower and I pontificate about cryptography. So that would be my role here is to be the ivory tower cryptographer So the the genesis of this panel was I for some reason was at a bar a few months ago with Julia and We sort of introduced ourselves and she's like I hate cryptographers And I was like why we're so harmless and I mean her explanation is basically that every time she talks to a Cryptographer they sound like this some long-winded story about Alice and Bob that has no relationship to reality and So and she started telling stories and I thought these stories were amazing and and also they sort of changed my idea of how sort of cryptography related to how journalists actually practice so We decided to organize something where we could have a conversation with the community about How cryptography and journalism interact and this is sort of you can think of this as QA testing for you guys that you have a bunch of Sort of QA testers who have done some things and they have some feedback for you and maybe we can have a conversation you can suggest some ideas for What they could be doing to secure themselves better and they can give you some ideas of problems that they have that are not being solved so That said okay Let's Let's do this All right, so if you are thinking about journalists from the perspective of a say cryptography Practitioner or like a security professional you think okay What is the task that a journalist is trying to accomplish? They they need to communicate confidentially with their sources confidentially meaning like some eavesdropper can't view the Conversation that they're having all right step number one Alice and Bob install some crypto software And I think the thing that we're trying to get out here is that you know Laura and and Glen had really an amazing source and Edward Snowden I mean just a hang in the moon goldmine of a source really great documents really uncovered a lot of Government you know malfeasance, but maybe this is boring sounding and covering the federal bureaucracy that is Washington But most of the time it's a guy named Bob Who's like five years away from retirement and just can't fucking take it anymore? And he wants to find a way to get you a document like you know a two-page PDF that he barely knows how to print on the local printer that he needs help from an assistant photocopying and it's that sort of You know op sec involved there because if he keeps printing out these documents He's the same Bob who logs in from his work computer and goes you hear that you've got mail because he still uses AOL 15 years later like those are the people that we deal with on a regular basis And and it's the little breadcrumbs that they they they they want to impart to you And so when you I guess what we're gonna start getting at is it when you then sit down and go, okay So you're gonna need to install GPG tools if he's Windows Cleopatra you're gonna need to do or revocation key Like the minute they heard install revocation key. They're like I know We're done. I mean and that's and that's happened before and and then they take the easy way out and that can lead to trouble I think Unfortunately, the easy way out is that they are unsafe, right? And so they so one of the challenges for journalists is that we are Trying to keep our sources from making mistakes that will then hurt them and also hurt us but more of them often and so You know all the time people send me things from their Gmail account at work on their work computer thinking somehow that was some secret Transmission and that their bosses will never find out and And it's just Unfortunate so the thing is what we're what we want to talk about is sort of how the bar is so much lower than you guys can maybe Understand in terms of like what we're dealing with and Edward Snowden obviously was like this perfect source who came fully encrypted I'm have yet to meet a source like that. I'm waiting So one of the things I remember hearing about is that often sources don't even realize that their sources So this is this is one of the things this first date problem that Nadia and I were talking about at the bar was that you know You meet somebody in the course of your reporting and you're like hey, let's get a drink and maybe you even met them through writing something very innocuous and Then you're in a bar and you're like so like what do you think about? setting up an encrypted channel and they're like what and It's a little bit like asking for sex on the first date You know, it's a little too much too soon So I was telling Nadia this and that actually was probably the genesis for this panel was that line So and I've done this right and I've tried to convince people and it They're like this is I don't even actually know what you're talking about Sometimes it's successful. You never know but But a lot of times it's It's really a psychological problem This person is thinking like they might help you because they want to make sure the story is correct Or they just sort of want to provide you one fact, but they don't want to be thought of in their own mind as a source I Mean, I'd like to just say a couple things sort of from the journalist perspective or sort of our kind of progression of actually how we learn these tools and so I went through a Period where so I made a film in in Iraq and then I was put on a Watchlist so I knew that I had to sort of be careful But I didn't really know what that meant and so the film that I made after that I made in Yemen and it was dealt and Yemen and in Guantanamo And I knew that like digital communication was not safe So I was like sort of danger zone and but I didn't know quite actually how to to respond to that or how to sort of Work around that and and I was trying to get access at that point I was trying to get access to get a film crew to Guantanamo into film and I had gone through like the official channels I'm gonna try the front door and then and I just never got anywhere I just sort of like delay delay delay And then my name was on all the requests and that wasn't going anywhere and then I was like all right I need to try the side door, you know, like how can I get to Guantanamo through the side door, which was you know created like this sort of You know efforts to kind of like sever metadata like to have the person like I hired somebody to sort of be the person who sent in the letters and they called from their cell phone and not never from my office and did these kind of things to kind of You know not have a direct, you know connection between me and these requests that were going in and for for that whole film I really kind of almost resorted to like an analog way of working like I I was Sending grant applications, but I would never send any over email I was like everyone got a hard copy and these kinds of things and it wasn't actually until Working on on this the film that I'm gonna show later that I actually learned some tools And it wasn't that easy to actually find out what were the correct tools because like you know You do a search and like a lot of things come back in terms of what is recommended So it actually took quite a long time where I was working kind of in the dark not knowing what tools I could trust to have anonymity and and Security and to do the work that that I was doing and then you know luckily I had some very good teachers So what does work? Say it again. Is there anything that does work anything that doesn't work does does it does work How do you mean like? I mean Jake Jake Applebaum and I are doing a Talk tomorrow and we'll talk about some things in terms of that work So there's one last problem that I remember discussing about the difficulties of installing crypto software Which is that if you were at a bar imagine you're at a bar. You pull out your phones. You're installing a software Right so one time I did manage to get someone convinced to do this on the first date at a bar and I thought that an encrypted Messaging app would probably be the easiest thing, you know a cell phone app. This is it was silent Text at the time and so I sat down with my source and I was like this is gonna be so much fun We're just just like fun, you know be like a fun way to just communicate and so So, you know It's one of those things where sort of it takes a long time to download and then you there's a lot of verification actually that how you have to do so There was a verification key that like we had to exchange with each other and for some unknown reason We just took an hour to do this and by the end of it We're both sort of like covered in sweat and exhausted in like it was a little like sex on the first date And you know the thing is that Silent circle we were using it was really the early days It had just come out because it wasn't that much crypto that I felt like I couldn't ask this person to try to use GPG so So we had these calls That it was like in the 70s, you know We're like I would talk and then there'd be like a five second delay and then she would reply and I realized, you know that it was too painful and we both kind of gave up using it after several months and so But we gave it a really good try and but it's just sitting at a bar trying to do this when you've had two glasses of wine is We probably weren't, you know at our best for these tools Okay, so once Alice and Bob have successfully installed some crypto software the next thing they do is exchange keys This is you know one of the great things and the greatest developments in cryptography ever public key cryptography Exchange keys it solves the key management problem and Unfortunately the reality of the key management problem today even still looks like this So so my family like including a relatively renamed nameless Likes to use, you know the different search engines out there that are installed on on our browser like Bing You know Jack if you have you Bing this day and I have no idea what she's saying When and these are the people who we are dealing with in Washington who like have this rudimentary understanding and have their kids Fix their iPhone or you know even younger people don't really understand this So when you you know say the words open up terminal or open up the command line in Windows Again, like we were saying earlier. I mean that's when they sort of freeze and and part of this isn't and maybe and Maybe some of that isn't correct me from wrong But in Windows, you know, which I have to use for my work Cleopatra you can't out of the GUI create a revocation key So at least that I haven't been able to find and so and that's obviously a very critical Part if your laptop gets stolen or compromised or whatever you need that revocation key and just even explaining it to very smart You know, almost tech savvy co-workers are like well Wait what it needs to hyphens with the out of the revoke and and it's it's just that that that complicated message You know for us, you know It's maybe not that hard to just fire up the terminal and type of command and bash and be done with it But it's it's that critical step that people tend to bypass I think we're going to talk about the shortcuts that people take to when these things get hard beyond what they're what they're used to And not to paint our industry that you know a lot of journalists or Dunderbuses or something But you know, we're set in our ways. I mean we we spend you know 10 20 30 years We know how to report a story how to turn the screws on people how to get the documents How to file the public records request and we're sort of been doing that chum You know chugging along for a long time and all of a sudden, you know And you know and particularly after the stone disclosures made us realize more than anything and after you know My colleagues at the AP to boot where their phone records were subpoenaed by the Justice Department I mean sometimes they really are out to get you and and you know, this is this is critically serious So it's it's I think trying to teach an old and young dog new tricks and it's very difficult. I think Also, I just want to confess I don't have a Revocation key. I'm sorry or a separate sub key. I've been meaning to But honestly, I find it kind of challenging I've taken me two Years three years of like really working at using GPG and I feel like I kind of have my little system duct taped together and so Lest you think less of me, which I'm sure you do I am probably the most tech-savvy journalist in every newsroom I've been in I grew up in Silicon Valley. I started programming in basic and fifth grade I do actually have some credentials, but I find this stuff incredibly challenging Just one question. How many people in this room understand everything that's on the screen right now Yes We need more sources like you I How many of you guys understand everything that's on the screen right now I I'm the guy I went to the the the Linux users groups parties growing up and had no friends So I understand this a little bit, but I loved it. I wouldn't change it for the world I think I understand it That doesn't mean I succeed Okay, so once Alice and Bob have exchanged public keys, they need to verify the authenticity of these keys So they Alice and Bob need to verify fingerprints Laura you should tell us like the best case scenario right? Yeah I don't know how many people Michael Lee who works with me at the intercept wrote a lengthy piece about how he helped my initial contact with with Snowden and What had happened was Snowden had tried for a while to get Glenn on encryption that didn't work and then actually the way that Snowden found me is he emailed the freedom of the press Foundation which is organization that I'm on the board of and Trying to get in touch with me and get my key and I think also wanting to somewhat verify that the key that he got was Was correct and so then Michael sent me an email and encrypted email and said hey some guy or some person who didn't know the gender wants to get in touch with you can I give your key and I said sure and then He then emailed and we did a first exchange his first email to me was to my true name account. It was a Gmail maybe I don't think I said that before but it was and And He then actually but that email has already been published his email that he sent it to so then so then he said something that was like certainly got my attention and which I think was in that He was in the government and that he wanted to share information and that no matter what happened to him The information should make its way to the American public and so that certainly got my attention So then he asked me to create a new Account an anonymous account and to contact him He sent me a fresh As he sent he contacted me at a new email address with a fresh key asked for one And then he asked me to to figure out a way to To verify it and he gave me some options and one of them was to have someone tweet it And so he he actually recommended that Micah tweet the fingerprint So then I emailed the fingerprint to Micah and I said said hey You know, I didn't say too much about the you know the first email I just said, you know, would you mind just you know putting this in your Twitter account and and he did and So that was how Snowden was able to verify My fingerprint and that was you know a couple Probably a week or two weeks after we started corresponding and then we were sort of on an anonymous, you know both in my communications were Were severed from my true name, but I was still using the same computer And then the next email that I got after that one was the sort of holy shit email Which is when I realized that I really need to create sort of a real Blockade between anything that was tied to my true identity and these communications and that's when That I that I's moved over to tails to the tails operating system. So thank you if there any tails developers in the room. Thank you I could continue on a little bit in the story and then we can come back. So So then I so he actually snowed in that said, you know, for most security you should use tails and I Known of it, but I wasn't using it at that time And so but I did have a bit of a dilemma with it because I didn't really have confidence of how to verify this the download the certificate and And actually was back in Berlin and I was a friend of a friend one one of the friends in the room in the room gave me Then another name of another person whose last name I actually never knew Who set up a tails? disc for me on a computer, which was a computer that I purchased with cash In New York, so it was there was nothing tied to my name in the correspondence From then on so that's like above and beyond levels of verification and trust verification And then they can I guess I'm gonna play the part of like the complete hapless one here But I did the I thought one of my sources. I thought Key verification in terms of numbers would be too hard. So we tried to do the shared secret on OTR I managed to get this person on OTR and and I Thought that it would be really easy if we we didn't set up a shared secret in advance I just thought we would be able to come up with one. So I said when do we first meet and then Or where where did we first meet what location and the person answered wrong? And then that person answered asked me a question of where we first met and I answered it wrong So we didn't know idea where we had first met So that didn't work How many people in this room have had that problem I feel better All right, so now we've successfully verified the authenticity of our keys in our software Step number four in a confidential communication is Alice and Bob actually initiate confidential communication with each other And why this entire talk is is illustrated with X KCD slides And and even even at the AP depending on which version of software you install It either does inline PGP it attaches it as an attachment or and you can't read them And there's UTF to ASCII character conversions And that's just among four people I work with and that's you know, I it's it's you know yet another headache I think we're not bagging on this entire I mean there are there I mean this the story the Cuba story that that Nadia was mentioning We use PGP extensively when we did work in countries that shall we say? Aren't really very favorable toward the press. We used other tools, which I'm sure lawyers and talk about in the future A communication secure voice communication tools like whisper systems the signal we use that Quite a bit and it worked very well Another sort of tool so so don't take away the impression that this is all garbage and we're throwing up our hands. It just it's Your mileage may vary. I Mean, I guess I could just bring in like yet another sad story. So One time I was really proud because I was really getting like a good PGP communication going with somebody and then all of a sudden we started dropping plain text and Basically, it turned out that one of us had it set only to accept Okay, I'm gonna get the technology wrong s-mime and PGP and one of us was not accepting p. S. Mime and so so the whole thing fell apart and Once again, I just felt like every time I think I've climbed like some way up the mountain. It turns out I'm really just at base camp I Will confess that I have dropped plain text with people on this stage And let's see so, okay I guess let's see we can we can talk about once once once we've moved on from Confidentiality we've talked about this a little bit already of another property that journalists need with Sources is anonymous communication Laura was talking about anonymous unlinkable communication So what this looks like is say the the simplest case Even not using so much cryptography is if you want an unlinkable thing. This is what Laura just did she purchased a device with cash and Then installs software on it. So Alice our journalist might purchase a burner phone with cash Maybe install some encrypted Communication applications on it install all the contacts so that they've been verified by her And then say mail Bob his special burner phone and then Bob can use his burner phone to securely communicate with Alice This is this is straightforward. This is taking all of the Responsibility for installation and verification away from Bob our hapless source So how does this work in practice? Yeah, so Colleagues am I and actually think that this is a true burner phone. I It's it's not it's tied particularly when they do on their phone They tie it to their Apple ID and then make what they think are anonymous phone calls This was sort of a by accident not he put the slide in because the one use the burner act as an aside burner Had was it's an obvious as an app where you can select an area code and for a certain amount of credits Create a phone number that you know masks arrayed math masquerades from that that area code Well, not masquerades and they can call call you back on it And I remember once dealing with a former Washington official We got a document how he's got some big payout from an organization and he wouldn't obviously pick up my 202 That's a Washington DC area code phone number Wouldn't pick up a block number wouldn't do it So I figured out where he lived in a rural in his rural state where he retired to and I got that that area code And called him up and he called me in it he answered in a tizzy because he thought I swear to God He thought it was the plumber who was running late to come fix it because he probably like picked up the phone near the Okay, and he's like I'm just got done with the work out or are you still coming over at 10? I'm like Mr. So it's so it's great. I got you on the phone We're preparing a story in an hour that says you did X Y and C and and like that's I think the only time that I mean This is not an you know do not use this for anonymous communications I mean it's to basically I mean in my my experience. It's to you know Hit him with that the area could that they think is is friendly fire or is it is a friendly number when it's not? So one time I bought a burner and did the sort of Alice and Bob thing You just laid out and I sent it in the mail to my source and executive at a company who is Trying to share all sorts of damning information about his company and we met in a cafe I said I'm going to be sending you a phone and he agreed This was not a first date problem. We've you know been talking for years. So he was willing to set up this encrypted channel and And then I would call I would tax nothing no response No response to finally I had to call we like what are you doing at the burner phone? He's oh, I never bring it anywhere with me. It just leave it at home The never you know just like it didn't have enough room in his pockets, right? One phone and so you know once again, I was like I would end up calling To tell him to go pick up the burner phone and so that was a pointless And the burner thing is difficult to I mean you know particularly You know that in at least in the states I mean the stereotype you know it's like you're you must be a drug dealer if you're getting a burner phone with Cash and and you you really look like the I mean, I'm a journalist by training. I don't care You know I look like an odd duck for a living and that's fine. I'm fine being the weird guy But like when you're there, they you know the AT&T store whatever you're topping up your SIM card And you're like the guy pulling out wads of cash And you don't really want to give your driver's license because you don't really have to and you're given a name that the guy Knows is not your real name and you're doing this weird dance and just like it's just like it's like a terrible Christmas dinner Just like I just want to go home Just give me the thing and go and and you got to do that to fill it up and it's yeah so basically we need to normalize The burner phone or something. Do any of you use tour? Yeah, oh, yeah all the time I Guess we heard Laura's success story with tails. I Mean I don't think any of us could do our work without tour I mean really I mean I think we use it every day and and even for for people Who don't understand, you know DNS all I do is I don't know why I use this website You got it I put him down I go, you know particularly since that the AP has their own net block and you know you reverse look up that address It says the Associated Press, you know, you know, whatever 33rd Street, New York, New York And you know you you go to IP chicken dot com or whatever I'm like look, you know Somebody who's monitoring a government email.  I'm like, yeah, they they know it's you. I mean Actually tails is like the my favorite sort of Success story so with fellow journalists actually who don't who find all this other encryption Difficult I find that actually showing tails is easier because it's sort of this controlled environment So I've had some success getting some colleagues to use tails because it's sort of simple The idea is a little bit simpler the idea that you just have this separate machine that you just do this and it's sort of all the box is built as a default to make you kind of make the right choices and so It's one it's probably my favorite tool I think that segues into sort of the last journalist task, which is keeping notes and data And of course from the perspective of the hapless cryptographer. This is easy Alice wants to keep some notes She encrypts the data to her private key. Nobody but her can decrypt it so Then of course situation number one collaboration with fellow journalists I mean there there time I'm just thinking of an recent memory when we've had I mean the AP is a global news organization we people all over the world and and you know You know, sometimes we need to see you know communicate securely and Like I was talking about earlier and again, this isn't you know, this is no It's not malicious that people do this But they you know, they're just so used to picking up the phone using you know, plain old telephone service and just dialing You know 011 the number what have you? and I just remember, you know Coming close once to being on a call where people were calling in from Shall I say hostile countries toward journalists and their sources and we were all calling in using these unsecured lines And then we all sort of realized like what we were doing and it was you know, it's like, you know We all sort of realized, you know, oops, we left the back door open. I think the cat just got out and it's too late But not quite because we didn't really we're about to you know We're gonna say so confidential source X lives on whatever street in Venezuela, you know We didn't get to that point, but you know even even when we're sort of used to it You know after Snowden to sort of showed us that and in the AP sub subpoenas that you know People really want your data. They will get access to it and this is you know, no laughing matter. I mean and Even you know people who do it all the time sometimes forget about it just by force of habit and I think that's you know a problem I obviously we need to correct ourselves internally But it's one of these things actually is sort of like the mindset in journalists newsrooms is sort of is outdated so the sort of rule of thumb in a Newsroom most newsrooms would be if you're filing a story Based on a confidential source your editor and oftentimes the editors up the chain Need to know the identity of that source and that's a general practice and the problem is your editor may be in another country and so You know in at the Wall Street Journal where I worked for 14 years You know sometimes like it just wasn't possible for the journalist to convey to the management in New York Who the source was in a secure way and sometimes before a story would run that journalist would actually fly To New York to talk to the editors and say this is the real story You should publish it and of course that delays publication and is very expensive and so there it's It's just a challenge within the structure of newsrooms Yeah, I mean I certainly experienced This these kinds of problems working on on this story before Right before going to Hong Kong The Washington Post got very nervous and there were a bunch of lawyers that were making phone calls They were all in the clear and they were sending emails about what was going on And I mean I really freaked out because it seemed to them and this was the most risky time to be having these kind of communications over anything electronic Let me actually I want to say something about the sort of collecting of Notes because as a filmmaker. I mean what I do is I actually usually you know filming And so I mean one of the things that I would love if somebody could someday develop is if you can record Videos to an encrypted Media and so you don't have unencrypted media on you because that's pretty risky depending on what situation if you happen to be For instance filming a protest and you're not able to you know pull out an SD card in time when I was in Hong Kong, I was I Was concerned that we'd be rated and so every day I was backing up the media and putting it on to Encrypted drives, but then I was had to physically like destroy the SD cards because I didn't want You know the raw footage to ever fall on anyone else's hands and and it's it happens a lot when you have people who are working in you know whatever In protests in Egypt for instance if if they get your camera They can get potentially get a lot of information if you can't get your media out in time and do something with it So I think We're we're almost done here. So with the slides so start preparing your questions and your answers to all of us I think Well what Laura's story just Segoed into the legal coercion problem that one of the big threats that journalists face is Coercion from governments either forceful or legal or any other way Does our AP representative want to talk about the problems of that the AP has faced? Yeah, I mean just Generally speaking I mean I think I mean it's it's not I mean it is a little bit of a hostile time and maybe that's understating it I mean for journalists, I mean and I apologize I come from a very American centric point of view because of Washington journalists But I mean this is it's sort of conversely the most transparent administration and global history But you know we were talking about MC catchers the other you know an earlier panel and you know This is the same meanwhile government that turns around and tells you know We my colleague and I found out that tells local law enforcement They can't even release details about what the local police do and you know, it's very secretive about you know Getting like when they got our phone records, you know, they're this it's you know people even coming down to sources and sort of like the bottom line here where you know why this matters so much is It's not the segways into it's not just you know about the intelligence community here It's not about you know, you know an NSA contractor in Hawaii who you know dumps all the you know top-seeker classified documents as important as it is I mean these are people who work in in state houses and in companies I mean as as Julie was saying you know like a company that's crooked and and you know people lose their jobs for this I mean they lose their mortgages. They can't pay their bills. They can't feed their families I mean these are very real effects of talking to the press just talking to us and And I think we owe it to sources to do a better job at this I mean we have the tools at our disposal and with the help of the crypto community I think we can you know Really do it right and make this better so we can have better journalism and old people accountable It's so cliche to say but that's the reason why we do what we do And you know, we can't just you know go back to a plain-text world when encryption is you know clearly the next forefront so I just want to add one thing which is that I I Think that newsrooms. I I know that journalism is also under financial pressure But I believe we have a moral obligation to invest more in these types of tools, right? It's heartbreaking to me whenever I learn how few people support The tools that I use every day and how underfunded they are and I personally tried to donate But I don't have and I'm a journalist, right? I'm not gonna be able to pull this by myself And but I think our newsrooms would be well served to see these tools as as Central to our work and to invest in them. All right last slide before questions The last issue that a lot of you run into is crossing international borders Okay, wow Yeah, I mean it's it's it's no man's land. I mean in terms of legal I mean you have no protection and they and they They use it. I mean the US government when I say they and You know in my case, you know, it's over six years detained every time I returned to the country and you know they photocopied notebooks and Threatened to take electronics many times they would stack them in a pile and you know I would say that I was a journalist and we would have long fights and they would say things like well You know, this would go much faster for you if you just give us your passwords and I'd say you know That's not happening and then they'd say well if you don't answer our questions We'll find our answers on your electronics, you know, that was one of my favorite quotes I mean ultimately I moved to Berlin because of this problem because Because the project I was working on I couldn't I didn't feel that I could protect the source material I had and cross the US border and so I started I was shooting and Filming and then I would you know leave footage outside of the country back it up and then return home And did that for a while and then once I needed to start editing Then I came to Berlin and and started working there, so it really was it you know created a huge problem for For me to be able to do the work in the US I think there's a question that we don't know how to answer is it safer to bring data across a border with your person or to send it electronically Maybe the answer is just no I Mean I think I think to a trusted You know second-party would be probably the safest there are no more stories that our other panelists want to tell well, I mean I haven't Obviously left the country I still live in New York, but I have for the past several years After one source called me and said look I know you're about to go on your annual Trip to India I go every year to visit my husband's family and India at Christmas time and this person said I just can't have your My name in your contact list if you're going to bring your phone across the border and at that moment I realized Oh my god, I can't I can't bring anybody's name across in my contact list So I realized I had to leave my phone Behind and I have continued to leave my phone behind on every international trip and and also my computer I have a what I call a zero data policy Crossing borders which by the way means I don't have anything, right? So it's really inconvenient to come with no data. It means that I get less work done I'm less productive.  I might want to work on on a stick but It's not a great and convenient way to do reporting and my editors despite You know supporting me are really annoyed when I don't reply to their emails All right, so I guess with that we'll open up for questions and answers from all of you So before we start the questions first of all, if anybody is leaving right now Please do so very quietly take your trash with you and also it would be nice if you would not let any martyr bottles fall over thank you for the demonstration and Also, if you have free seats now, then please already try to Defragment a bit like move inwards in your respective rows and make room on the sides We will not leave and let anybody inside this room yet before The next section but basically the film is going to start So during the Q&A, please try to be a bit quieter than right now a bit quiet Okay so then Hi Let's start with microphone one so if you're so much in the focus of agencies and so on like Laura What do you do about end point security? Let's say you do everything correct with encryption But now you have this air gap device laying in your home And like do you always carry it with you or do you sleep with it under your pillow? Or how do you make sure that it doesn't get bugged? I would never answer that question. Okay, so I mean would you have any advice for people who want to Who have that problem like I mean what? How would they find out what they should do? I mean obviously it's a question of threat model, right? You know and I Mean, you know there. I mean, I don't know if Sarah Harrison is here I know she's giving a talk, but she's off she carries a lot of computers with her I mean that's sometimes what we do there are times when you carry a lot of computers with you and and I think that There are times, you know where it depends where that might be more necessary than others Depending on what you're working on and or the political context in which you're working So, I mean obviously I mean what people will say is that if you you know, do you never lose possession of it? It would be you know the the sort of you know absolute secure recommendation Thank you microphone to please. Hello. I was left with the impression that burner phones are viable option for informants I would dispute that view the problem the problem I see with burner phones is that in The data mining is very easy to identify a burner phone because like let's say if we have a burner from their two cases You travel with a burner phone then you quickly identify a burner phone is a burner phone because a movement pattern is very similar or identical you see like the same base stations so you can identify not only that You can identify which person has a burner phone and because you know the identity of that person You can identify that it's that person's burner phone and even for the stationary case where we for example leave the burner phone at home The burner phone has a very distinct communication pattern because you essentially just communicate to one person which is extremely unusual So together with the location in you know for example, okay The person is living let's say in the radios of a kilometer or something But you have these special phones that only talk to one person So I don't think there is a good scenario for burner phones that should be avoided I would just say that um on burner phones that it depends on your threat model right for a state actor Who can see the whole cell network? You're completely right. I wouldn't recommend burner phones But I was using a burner phone in this particular instance for a corporate source, right? And I don't think his company was going to be able to get the cell companies to give up that information I wanted him just to not use his corporate paid cell phone, which is what he previously was using to talk to me Right, so it depends on your threat model for some people a burner could be fine Thank you, so let's get a question from the internet Can you give the can you activate the microphone? Okay now it's activated. Hello Well, there are a thousand questions on the IRC channel and I hope I can at least relay a few of them Well, a lot of them are going about training for journalists like are there any Journalism schools or universities that are teaching crypto as an obligatory Yeah, basic skill or What can a technical journalist journalist do to learn more of their fellow students into some crypto parties and also Yeah, how many days or weeks or years do it does a journalist in your experience need To really also get the point of encryption or secure communication to be also comfortable with it So this is all about this huge field I knew journalism schools up to five years ago that like their prime Technological feet besides doing beat what was we would call beat reporting was teaching people how to use Adobe Flash and like that tick the box with like the technology that needed to be a learn and And again, maybe it's an old dog and new tricks thing of people who in in the business and they're like this crypto thing I mean those include journalism professors to never had to use is never had to face this reality I Know Columbia University has a computational journalism track. I know there's been discovered I'm not the expert on this maybe somebody else is I know that this has been at least a discussion in like the American journalism Education community about you know, it's not just the crypto to its you know digital public records requests and analyzing You know big data, you know how to parse through it All these sorts of things that you know that go beyond the you know notebook assisted reporting of days of your you know And and I I'm sure that's a discussion somewhere. I would have so I'm working with the Columbia Journalism school right now actually I'm writing a chapter for their one of the book that's coming out on what types of techniques journalists can use and they are beefing up their crypto programs, but it's not mandatory and The truth is that there's a lot of confusion out there about what are the best crypto tools and there's One thing that's upsetting to me is that there are you know every day I get an email from a new crypto program and some of them are not really as Encrypted as they seem and so I think there's a lot of confusion in the regular public about what they should use Which is why and do you guys probably already know all know all this but essentially I did a Thinking with EFF of crypto tools on seven criteria just to provide some sort of benchmark of what people might think might consider actually safe Thank you. So microphone three please. Hello. Thank you very much for your talk I want to raise a question about a power structure that was not part of the discussion so far I once gave a crypto party at a big Dutch news cooperation for the Dutch people in the room called the NOS and The journalists were super enthusiastic They want to get started right away and I said, okay, let's get started with installing tour And I said we are not allowed to do that on our machines But luckily there were some tech people of the NOS in the room and and we looked at them Like can you help them out? Can you give them permission and said we could but we're not allowed because it's not part of our budget To install this and everything's actually closed down and if we change anything it will all fall together And they looked kind of panicked and then it turned out that management had to come in But they were nowhere to be found and that seemed and maybe you can relate to that in a lot of news cooperation There's this management layer that in the end needs to be like part of this whole transition into like secure communication Yeah that's a really really really great question because Having worked for American news companies where they are cut to the bone That is a very real concern. I mean you have almost two parts I would say or two sort of issues one is the money issue You know because you know from an IT I mean, you know from a newsroom point of view we're like well, it's a great source Let's do it. You know pay any cost bury any burden. We're gonna do it But then they're like no we only have X amount for fiscal year whatever and by the way our exchange mail servers are Basically smoking you can see one smoking. That's where the money has to go right now. The other one is to Yeah, exactly and that's the counter argument to that is it doesn't and it's not what they're used to they're not used to doing this And so at least that the success that we've had or I've had in some news organizations others have either as well is sort of the Now a general professor Matt wait used to be a reporter in Florida has this thing called demos not memos like do this Organic from the bottom up and sort of show how it works do a test case, you know use free software use tour You know use the tour browser and the IP chicken thing that I was taught whatever you want to use and then people sort of have these little epiphanies like Okay, that makes sense and then that you know and it's I've seen it happen even very recently It starts bubbling up to the top, you know combined with the other news just in general about how you know the government is basically looking over our shoulder and You know ideally that starts to collide and you know the selling point for them is like tour It's or tails. It's free, you know a cost of a DVD I'll I'll I'll give you ten on the house just download it, you know And I think it's that it just it's a different mindset that they're not used to just like reporters aren't used to it Yeah, but also I mean there's a problem with it departments in newsrooms being total control freaks and not letting anyone touch any Machines and that's that's not about cost or or you know not understanding how it works They're just you know not don't want anyone touching any machine And they want to keep you know access to every machine that goes out of a newsroom and that just needs to stop I mean, I think I was at democracy now and and and Jake was trying to install OTR and someone's you know, he said oh you should have OTR so we can talk and he started to install it and Like an IT a freaked out IT person came into the rooms like what are you doing to this computer?  Like I was in a news organization once where I I couldn't it was locked down administratively I couldn't install anything. So I just brought in my home might my Whatever a power book whatever was the time and I installed it and they were so concerned about security security Security, but then I just took the ethernet cable and just bam right into the wall and got right under the network I'm like, okay. So like on one end. We're concerned about security here, but I'm here. I can it's no problem. Okay Thank you another question from the internet, please. Yeah, as I just touched the journalists I now go to developers as the target group so What tools would you need or would other? journalists need that open source developers can develop and Make better and like what features are really most important to you to help You make your job. I think that Actually investment in GPG itself would be great because I love the fact of the public key infrastructure the fact that you and your source don't have to Don't have to know each other right because if you if somebody reaches out to you the way that Snowden reached out to Laura He there was a way even though it's clunky It seems to me that that method of sort of overcoming that first date problem of Finding somebody and verifying them in a public way is still sort of our best hope Those are the sources that we want to attract To us is somebody who just thinks they might want to share something and if we could make that easier I would be really in favor of that. That's I still use GPG much more than I use any other tool despite my constant Frustrations with it. Yeah, I mean I would just echo again what Julia said earlier about tails and what next what a great Device that is for us to do the work because what I found when I started doing the reporting then it wasn't just me Who needed it but then you have a circle of people who you're also reporting with that you have to bring up to speed and You could actually you know, I ended up making a lot of tails disks and circulating them to people So that I had people in my circle that I needed to talk to and that was became you know, relatively large and to have a tool that actually is Sending things by default with encryption that that you can just say here's a computer. This is how you find me Was the most valuable tool for doing this reporting. Thank you So microphone for please Good, so I just wanted to make a couple of comments positive comments about the use of burner phones Ideally Both parties will have a burner phone that was bought in cash From a brand where you don't have to show ID and you don't have to deal with a human In the US these are track phones usually where you just go into a Convenience store or something like that. You buy something in cash. You buy some, you know minutes that you add on to there And that's that okay So ideally as the the first comment actually pointed out is that if you're carrying these around all the time The social graphing becomes very easy because you know Julia's social graph You know call she's making where she's at which cell tower she's hitting will match up Identically with her burner phone and that's absolutely not what you want Ideally you would want to have a set time where you have your battery into the phone And all of the times it's off on both ends So if you say, you know Saturday from 7 to 9 every week, please put your battery in the phone If I don't call okay if I do call okay, and all of the times just keep it unplugged And that's a really good way to ensure that you know, hopefully you're both making calls outside of the house So maybe it's even slightly less Trackable but also if you're in a big city like New York, it doesn't necessarily matter This is also what drug dealers do you might recognize this method from there I'm super excited to meet the source who's gonna comply with those directions Please put your battery in this phone from 7 to 9 on Saturday. I'm sure that person is out there All right another question from the internet, please. Yeah following up on this like what should it source do? What is the most sensible way to contact a journalist and what in your experience are the typical and maybe most fatal? mistakes they make That's a great question You know It depends on how Secure you want to be It's very difficult to make first contact without using you know the journalist's existing email address So you are gonna have some Or some known way to reach them. I actually advise people to use the postal mail No return address and I read my mail. I get it I get a lot of mail most of it isn't interesting But some of it's really interesting and then you can put a disposable email address in there or a phone number And I will reach out. I think it's an underestimated tool Yeah, and you get you get I mean I get letters all the time from not all the time But from people who do want to make that first contact if I haven't already met them at a previous social occasion I mean again This is very specific to Washington because everybody talks to everyone But I mean then they will send me a note and you know ask me in touch with them, I guess We have time for two quick questions. So first microphone one, please Regarding the request for encrypted video the magic lantern project, which is a open source Firmware for the Canon SLR cameras already supports RSA encrypting of the still images, but not yet the video But if you reach out to us, we'd be happy to talk about whether or not that's a possibility. That's fantastic. Thank you Okay, that was more of a comment than a question, but thank you. So microphone three last question, please yes, you mentioned the question problem and Thank you so what would you think of systems which basically allow you to Set up a passphrase and encryption passwords, which Basically a fake one which would make your data definitely unusable If you ever use it Is it actually a good solution for the question issue?  Yeah In the context of the UK that you know would probably be something that Because I think they can hold you if you don't if you don't comply with that it depends on the context But I think that would I think be very valuable. I Don't know If it's been done Would you guys use such a thing? I would love to have such a thing. I think it's fun to have the idea of the escape handle Stop the train right because then also I would sort of feel maybe better about bringing my Devices over the border if I could feel very confident that I could destroy it at a moment's notice Was it Hillary Clinton advocating for like a kill switch? No way. What was there? There was a kill switch idea But that was something else never mind I'm pretty sure if you've already had a legal demand that would be risk of contempt of court to use such a thing Okay, then we're finished. Thank you very much. Give them again a warm applause