From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto in Boston, bringing you data-driven insights from theCUBE and ETR. This is Breaking Analysis with Dave Vellante. Mobile World Congress is alive. theCUBE will be there and will certainly let you know if it's alive and well when we get on the ground. Now as we approach a delayed Mobile World Congress, it's really appropriate to reflect on the state of the telecoms industry. Let's face it, telcos have done a really good job keeping us all connected during the pandemic, supporting work from home and that whole pivot, accommodating the rapid shift to landline traffic, securing the network and keeping it up and running, but it doesn't change the underlying fundamental dilemma that telcos face. Telco is a slow growth, no growth industry with revenue expectations in the low single digits. Now at the same time, network traffic continues to grow at 20% annually and last year it grew at 40 to 50%. Despite these challenges, telcos are still investing in the future. For example, the telco industry collectively is shelling out more than a trillion dollars in the first half of this decade on 5G and fiber infrastructure. And it's estimated that there are now more than 205G networks worldwide. But a lot of questions remain, not the least of which is, can and should telcos go beyond connectivity and fiber? Can the telcos actually monetize 5G or whatever's next, beyond 5G? Or is that going to be left to the ecosystem? And what about the ecosystem? How is that evolving? And very importantly, what role will the cloud hyperscalers play in telco?  Hello everyone and welcome to this week's Wikibon Cube Insights powered by ETR. In this breaking analysis, it's my pleasure to welcome a long time telecoms industry analyst and colleague and the founding director of Lewis Insight, Mr. Chris Lewis, Chris, welcome to the program. Thanks for coming on. Dave, it's a pleasure to be here. Thank you for having me. It is really our pleasure. So we're going to cover a lot of ground today. And first thing, we're going to talk about Mobile World Congress. I've never been, you're an expert at that and what we can expect. And then we're going to review the current state of telecoms infrastructure, where it should go. We're going to dig into transformation. Is it a mandate? Is it aspirational? Can telcos enter adjacent markets in ways they haven't been able to in the past? And then how about the ecosystem? We're going to talk about that. And then obviously we're going to talk about cloud, as I said, and we'll riff a little bit on the tech landscape. So Chris, let's get into it. Mobile World Congress, it's back on. What's Mobile World Congress typically like? What's your expectation this year for the vibe compared to previous events? Well, Dave, the issue of Mobile World Congress is always that we go down there for a week into Barcelona. We stress ourselves building a matrix of meetings in 30 minute slots. And we return at the end of it, trying to remember what we'd been told all the way through. The great thing is that the last time we had it live, with around 110,000 people there, you could see anyone and everyone you needed to within the mobile and increasingly the adjacent industry and ecosystem. So it gave you that once a year, big, big download of everything new, obviously because it's the Mobile World Congress, a lot of it around devices. But increasingly over the last few years, we saw many, many stands with cars on them because the connected car became an issue, a lot more software-oriented players there, but always the telcos, always the people providing the network infrastructure, increasingly in the last few years, people providing the software and IT infrastructure, but all of these people contributing to what the network should be in the future, what needs to be connected. And of course, the reach of the network has been growing. You mentioned during lockdown about connecting people in their homes. Well, of course, we've also been extending that connection to connect things, whether it's in the home to all the different devices, monitoring the doorbells and lights and all that sort of stuff. And in the industry environment, connecting all of the robots and sensors. So actually the perimeter, the remit of the industry to connect has been expanding. And so was the sort of remit of Mobile World Congress. So we've seen an awful lot of different suppliers coming in trying to attach to this enormous market of roughly $1.5 trillion globally. Chris, what's the buzz in the industry in terms of who's going to show up? I know a lot of people have pulled out. I've got the Mobile World Congress app and I can see who's attending. And it looks like quite a few people are going to go, but what's your expectation? Well, from an analyst's point of view, obviously I'm mainly keeping up with my clients and trying to get new clients. I'm looking at it and going, most of my clients are not attending in person. Now, of course, we need the GSMA, we need Mobile World Congress for the future for the industry interaction. And of course, like many people, having adopted and adapted to be online, then they're putting a lot of the keynotes online, a lot of the activities will be online. But of course, many of the vendors have also produced their independent content and content to actually deliver to us as analysts. So I'm not sure who'll be there. I like you or you'll be on the ground. You'll be able to report back and let us know exactly who turned up. But from my point of view, I've had so many pre-briefs already. The difference between this year and previous years, I used to get loads of pre-brief and then I had to go and do the briefs as well. So this year I've got the pre-brief so I can sit back, put my feet up and wait for your report to come back as to what's happening on the ground. You got it. Okay, let's get into a little bit and talk about telco infrastructure and the state, where it is today, where it's going. Chris, how would you describe the current state of telco infrastructure? Where does it need to go? Like, what does the ideal future state look like for telcos in your view? So there's always a bit of an identity crisis when it comes to telco, I think going forward. Because the connectivity piece was seen as being table stakes, and then people thought, where can we go beyond connectivity? And we'll come back to that later. But actually to provide the connectivity under the scenario I just described, of people, buildings, things and society, we've got to do a lot more work to make that connectivity extend, to be more reliable, to be more secure. So the state of the network is that we have been building out infrastructure, which includes fiber to connect households and businesses. It includes that next move to cellular from 4G to 5G. It also includes WiFi, wherever we've got that as well. And actually it's been in a pretty good state. As you said in your opening comments, they've done a pretty good job keeping us all connected during the pandemic, whether we're a fixed centric market like the UK with a lot of mobile on top and like the US, or in many markets in Africa and Asia where we're very mobile centric. So the fact is that every country market is different. So we should never make too many assumptions at a very top level, but building out that network, building out the services, focusing on that connectivity and making sure we get that cost of delivery right, because competition is pushing us towards having not ever increasing prices because we don't want to pay a lot extra every time. But the big issue for me is how do we bring together the IT and the network parts of this story to make sure that we build that efficiency in? And that brings in many questions that we're going to touch upon now around cloud and hyperscalers around who plays in the ecosystem? Well, as you know, Telco's not my wheelhouse, but hanging around with you, I've learned and you talked a lot about the infrastructure being fit for purpose. So it's easy from an IT perspective. It's, oh yeah, it's fossilized, it's hardened and it's not really flexible. But the flip side of that coin is as you're pointing out, it's super reliable. So the big talk today is, okay, we're going to open up the network, open systems and open ran and open everything and microservices and containers. And so the question is, is can you mimic that historical reliability in that open platform? Well, for me, this is the big trade-off. And in my great Telco debate every year, I always try and put people against each other to try and literally debate the future. And one of the things we looked at was, is a more open network against this desire of the Telcos to actually have a smaller supplier roster? You know, and of course, as a major corporation, which these are on a national basis, very large companies, not large compared to the hyperscales, for example, but they're large organizations and they're trying to slim down their organizations, slim down the supplier ecosystem. So actually in some ways, the more open it becomes, the more someone's got to manage and integrate all those pieces together. And that isn't something we want to do necessarily. So I see a real tension there between giving more and more to the traditional suppliers, the Nokia's, Ericsson's, Huawei's, Amdox and so on, the Cisco's, and then the people coming in breaking new ground like Mavenir and coming in and the sort of approach that Rakuten and Co have taken in bringing in more open and more malleable pieces of smaller software. So yeah, it's a real challenge. And I think as an industry which is notorious for being slow moving, actually we've begun to move relatively quickly, not necessarily all the way through the organization. We've got plenty of stuff sitting on major, major or mainframe still in the back in the back of the organization. But of course as mobile has come in, we started to deal much more closely and interactively in real time, God forbid, with the customers. So actually at that front end, we've had to do things a lot more quickly. And that's where we're seeing the quickest adaptation to what you might see in your IT environment as being much more continuous development, continuous improvement. That sort of on-demand delivery. Yeah, and we're going to get to that sort of in the cloud space but I want to now touch on telco transformation which is sort of the main theme of this episode. And there's a lot of discussion on this topic. Can telcos move beyond connectivity and managing fiber? Is this a mandate? Is it a pipe dream that's just aspirational? Can they attack adjacencies to grow beyond the 1% a year? I mean, they haven't been successful historically. What are those adjacencies that might be an opportunity and how will that ecosystem develop? So Chris, can and should telcos try to move beyond core connectivity? Let's start there. I like what you did there by saying pipe dreams. You normally pipe is a negative comment in the telecom world that pipe dream gives it a real positive feel. So can they move beyond connectivity? Well, first of all, connectivity is growing in terms of the number of things being connected. So in that sense, the market is growing. What we pay for that connectivity is not necessarily growing. So therefore the mandate is absolutely to transform the inner workings and reduce the cost of delivery. So that's the internal perspective. The external perspective is that we've tried in many telcos around the world to break into those adjacent markets, be it around media, be it around enterprise, be it around IoT. And actually for the most part, they failed. We've seen some very significant recent announcements from AT&T, Verizon, BT, beginning to move away from owning content and delivery, not delivering content, but owning content. And the same is they've struggled often in the enterprise market to really get into that because it's a well-established channel of delivery bringing all those ecosystem players in. So actually rather than the old telco view of we're going to move into adjacent markets and control those markets, actually moving into them and enabling fellow ecosystem players to deliver the service is what I think we're beginning to see a lot more of now. And that's the big change. It's actually learning to play with the other people in the ecosystem. In fact, I always use a phrase that, there's no room for egos in the ecosystem. And I think telcos went in initially with an ego thinking we're really important, we own connectivity. But actually now they're beginning to approach the ecosystem, saying how can we support partners? How can we support everyone else in this ecosystem to deliver the services to consumers, businesses and whomever in this evolving ecosystem? So there are opportunities out there, plenty of them. But of course, like any opportunity, you've got to approach it in the right way. You've got to get the right investment in place. You've got to approach it with the right open API so everyone can integrate with your approach. And an approach, dare I say it with a little bit of humility to say, hey, we can bring this to the table. How do we work together? Well, it's an enormous market. I think you've shared with me it's like 1.4 trillion. And I want to stay on these adjacencies for a minute because one of the obvious things that telcos will talk about is managed services. And I know we have to be careful of that term in an IT context that it's different in talking about managing connectivity but there's professional services. That's a logical sort of extension of their business and probably a safe adjacency, maybe not even adjacency but they're not going to get into devices, right? I mean, they'll resell devices but they're not going to, I would presume not go back to trying to make devices but there's certainly the edge and that's so ill-defined and opaque but it's huge. You know, if there's 5G, there's the IT component and that's probably a partnership opportunity and as you're pointing out, there's the ecosystem but I wonder, how do you think about 5G as an adjacency or indoor opportunity? Is it a revenue opportunity for telcos or is that just something that is really aspirational? No, absolutely it's a revenue opportunity but I prefer to think of 5G as being a sort of a metaphor for the whole future of telecom. So we usually talk at MWC we would normally talk about 5G just as a mobile solution. Of course, what you can get with it you can use this fixed wireless access approach where the router sits in your house or your building so it's a potential replacement for some fixed lines and of course it also gives you the ability to build out, let's say in a manufacturing or a campus environment, a private 5G network. So many of the early opportunities we're seeing with 5G are actually in that sort of more private network environment addressing those very high, very low latency and high bandwidth requirements. So yet there are plenty of opportunities. Of course the question here is, is connectivity enough or especially with your comment around the edge? At the edge we need to manage connectivity, storage, compute, analytics and of course the applications. So that's a blend of players. It's not going to be in the hands of one player. So yes, plenty of opportunities but understanding what comes the other way from the customer base, whether that's you and I in our homes or out and about or from a business point of view in an office or a campus environment, that's what should be driving it, not the technology itself. And I think this is the trap that the industry has fallen into many times is we've got a great new wave of technology coming. How can we possibly deliver it to everybody rather than listening to what the customers really require and delivering it in a way consumable by all those different markets? Yeah, now of course all these topics blend together. We try to keep them separately but we're going to talk about cloud, we're going to talk about competition but one of the areas that we don't have a specific agenda item on is data and AI. And of course there's all this data flowing through the network so presumably it's an opportunity for the telcos. At the same time, they're not considered AI experts. They do, when you talk about Edge, they would appear to have the latency advantage because of the last mile and the proximity to various end points but the cloud is sort of building out as well. How do you think about data and AI as an opportunity for telco? You know, I think the whole data and AI piece for me sits on top of the cake or pie whatever you want to call it. What we're doing with all this connectivity, what we're doing with all these moving parts and gathering information around it and building automation into the delivery of the service and using the analytics whether you call it ML or AI it doesn't really matter but actually using that information to deliver a better service, a better outcome. Now of course telcos have had much of this data for years and years, for decades but they've never used it. So I think what's happening is the cloud players are beginning to educate many of the telcos around how valuable this stuff is and that then brings in that question of how do we partner with people using open APIs to leverage that data? Now, do the telcos keep hold of all that data? Do they let the cloud players do all of it? No, it's going to be a combination depending on particular environments. And of course, you know, the people owning their devices also have a vested interest in this as well. So you've always got to look at end to end and where the data flows are and where we can analyze it. But I agree that analysis on the device at the edge and perhaps less and less going back to the core which is of course the original sort of mandate of the cloud. Well, we certainly think that most of the edge is going to be about AI inferencing and that most of the data is going to stay at the edge. Some will come back for sure. And that is a big opportunity for whether you're selling compute or connectivity or maybe storage as well, but certainly insights at the edge. Everything, yeah, everything, yeah. Let's get into the cloud discussion and talk about the hyperscalers, the big hyperscaler elephant in the room. We're going to try to dig into what role the cloud will play in the transformation of telecoms. On telecom TV at the great telco debate, you likened the hyperscalers, Chris, to dementors from Harry Potter hovering over the industry.  They're powerful, they're sometimes friendly, but they're unpredictable. Thank you for extending that analogy. Yes, it got a lot of reaction when I used that, but I think it sort of indicates sort of some of the direction of power shift, and we've got to remember here that telcos are fundamentally national and they're restricted by regulation and the cloud players are global, perhaps not as global as they'd like to be, but there's some regional restrictions, but the global players, the hyperscalers, they will use that power and they will extend their reach and they are extending their reach. You think they now command some fantastic global networks, in some ways they've replaced some of the telco international networks, those, all the submarine investments and now tend to be done primarily for the hyperscalers. So they're building it out. So as soon as you get onto their network, then you'll suddenly become part of that environment and that is reducing some of the spend on the longer distances, we might have called it in the past, approaches from the telcos. Now, does that mean they're going to go all the way down and take over the telcos? I don't believe so, because it's a fundamentally different business digging fiber in people's streets and deliver it to buildings and putting antennas up. So there will be a coexistence. And in fact, what we've already seen with cloud and the hyperscalers is that they're working much more closely together than people might imagine. Now, you mentioned about data in the previous question, Google, probably the best known of the AI and ML deliverers from the cloud side, working with many of the telcos, even in some cases to actually have all the data outsourced into the Google Cloud for analytics purposes, they've got the power, the heavy lifting to do that. So we're beginning to see that and obviously with shifting of workloads as appropriate within the telco network and environment, we're seeing that with AWS and of course, with Azure as well. So Azure, of course, are quite a couple of companies in affirmed and metaswitch, which actually do some of the formal 5G core and the like within the connectivity environment. So it's not clean cuts. And to go back to the analogy, those dementors are swooping around looking for opportunities and we know that they will pick up opportunities and they will extend their reach as far as they can down to that edge. But of course, the edge is where, as you rightly say, the telcos have the control. They don't necessarily own the customer. I don't believe anyone owns the customer in this digital environment because digital allows you to move your allegiance and your custom elsewhere anyway. So, but they do own that access piece and that's what's important from a national point of view, from an economic point of view. And that's why we've seen some of the geopolitical activity but banning Huawei from certain markets, encouraging more innovation through open ecosystem plays. So there is a tension there between the local telco, the local market and the hyperscaler market but fundamentally they've got an absolute brilliant way of working together, using the best of both worlds to deliver the services that we need as an economy. Well, and we've talked about this, you and I in the past where the telcos, the portions of the telco network could move into the cloud and of course the telcos all run big data centers and portions of that IT infrastructure could move into the cloud. But it's very clear they're not going to give up the entire family jewels to the cloud players, why would they? And then, but there are portions of their IT that they could move in, particularly in the front end, they want to build like everybody, they want to build an abstraction layer, they're not going to move their core systems and their backend oracle databases. They're going to put a brick wall around those but they want an abstraction layer and they want to take advantage of microservices and use that data from those transaction systems but their web front end stuff makes sense to put into cloud. So how do you think about that? I think you've hit the nail on the head. So you can't move those big backend systems straight away, gradually over time you will but you've got to go for those easy wins. And certainly in the research I've been doing with many of my clients, that suggests that that front end piece, making sure that you can onboard customers more easily, you can get the right mix of services, you can provide the omnichannel interaction from that customer experience that everybody talks about for which the industry is not very well known at all by the way. So any improvement on that is going to be good from an NPS point of view. So yeah, leveraging what we might, what we call BSSOSS in the telecom world and actually putting that into the cloud, levering both the hyperscalers, but also by the way, many of the traditional players who people think haven't moved cloudwards but they are moving cloudwards and they're embracing microservices and cloud native. So, what you would have seen if we'd been in person down in Barcelona next week would be a lot of the vendors who perhaps traditionally seen as a bit slow moving actually have done a lot of work to move their portfolio into the cloud and into cloud native environments. And yes, as you say, we can use that front end, we can use the API openness that's developed by people at the TM forum to actually make sure we don't have to do the back end straight away, do it over time. Because of course, the thing that we're not touching upon here is the revenue stream is a consistent revenue stream. So just because you don't need to change the back end to keep your revenue stream going, this is an anew, it keeps delivering every month. We keep paying our 50, 40, whatever bucks a month into the telco pot. That's why it's such a big market and people aren't going to stop doing that. So I think the dynamics of the industry, we often spend a lot of time thinking about the inner workings of it and the potential of adjacent markets was actually we keep paying for this stuff. We keep pushing revenue into the pockets of all the telcos. So it's not a bad industry to be in. Even if they were just pushed back to be in the access market, it's a great business. We need it more and more. The elasticity of demand is very inelastic. We need it. Yeah, it's the mother of all golden geese. We don't have a separate topic on security and I want to touch on security here. It's such an important topic and it's top of mind obviously for everybody, telcos, hyperscalers. The hyperscalers have this shared responsibility model. You know it well. A lot of times it's really confusing for customers. They don't realize it until there's been a problem. The telcos are going to be very much tuned into this. How will all this openness, and we're going to talk about technology in a moment, but how will this transformation in your view and the cloud with the shared responsibility model, how will that affect the whole security posture? You know, security is a great subject and I do not specialize in it and don't claim to be an expert by any stretch of the imagination. But I would say security for me is a bit like AI and analytics. It's everywhere. It's part of everything. And therefore you cannot think of it as a separate add-on issue.  How do you secure the customer's data? You know, sovereignty plays a role in that as well in terms of where it sits. But at every level, at every connection, every hop that we look through, every router jump, we've got to see that security is built in. And in some ways, you know, it seems being a separate part of the industry. But actually, you know, as we collapse parts of the network down, you know, we're talking about bringing optical and routing together in many environments, you know, security should be, should be talked about in the same breath. So when I talked about Edge and I talked about connectivity, storage, compute, analytics, I should have said security as well because I absolutely believe that is fundamental to every chain in the link. And let's face it, we've got a lot of links in the chain. Yeah, 100%. Okay, let's, let's hit on technologies and competition, we're going to blend those together. What technology should we pay in attention to that are going to accelerate this transformation? We hear a lot about 5G, open ran. There's a lot of new tech coming in. What are you watching? Who are the players that we maybe should be paying attention to, some that you really like that are well positioned? You know, we've touched upon it in various of the questions that are preceded there. So, you know, the sort of the cloudification of the networking environment is obviously really important. The automation of the processes, we've got to move away from bureaucratic manual processes within these large organizations because we've got to be more efficient, we've got to be more reliable. So, or anything which is related to automation. And then the open run question is really interesting. Once again, it raises this topic of when you go down an open run route or any open route, it ultimately requires more integration. You've got more moving parts from more suppliers. So therefore the potential security issues there, depending on how it's defined. But everybody is entering the open run market. You know, there are some names that you will see regularly next week, you know, being pushed. I'm not going to push them anymore because some of them just attract the oxygen of attention, but you know, there are plenty out there. What the good news is that the key vendors that who come from the more traditional side are also absolutely embracing that and accept the openness. But I think the piece which probably excites me more apart from the whole shift towards cloud and microservices, is this coming together, the openness between the IT environment and the networking environment. And you see it, for example, in the open run, this thing called the RIC, the RAN Interconnection Controller. We're actually, we're beginning to find people coming from the IT side able to control elements within the remote, the wireless controller piece. Now that starts to say to me, we're getting a real handle on it. Anybody can manage it. So more specialization is required, but understanding how the end-to-end flow works. You know, what we will see, of course, is an analysis about new devices. You know, the big guys like Apple and Samsung do their own thing during the year and don't interrupt their beats with MWC, but you'll see a lot of devices being pushed by many other providers. And you'll see many players trying to break into the different elements of the market. But I think mostly you'll see the people approaching it from a more cloudified angle where things are much more leveraging that cloud capability and not relying on the sort of rigid and stodgy infrastructure that we've seen in the past. Which is kind of interesting, because a lot of the clouds are walled gardens at the same time they host a lot of open technologies. And I think as these two worlds collide, IT and the telco industry, it's going to be interesting to see how the telco developer ecosystem evolves. And so that's something that we definitely want to watch. You got a comment there? Yeah, well, I think the telco developer, they've not traditionally been very big in that area at all, have they?  And they've moved on to that. In some ways, I'd like them to move on and to have the one trick of plain old broadband that we just get broadband delivered everywhere. You know, so there are some issues about delivering service to all parts of every country and obviously the globe, whether we do that through satellite. We might see some interesting satellite stuff coming out during NWC. There's an awful lot of birds flying up there trying to deliver signal back to the ground. Traditionally, that's not been very well received. You know, the change in generation of satellite might help do that. You know, but we've not traditionally had a lot of developer activity in there. What it does bring to the fore though, Dave, is this issue of, you know, players like the Cisco's and Juniper's and all these guys of the world who bring a developer community to the table as well. You know, this is where the ecosystem play comes in because that's where you get the innovation in the application world, working with channels, working with the individual applications. And so it's opening up. It's basically building a massive fabric that anybody can tap into and that's what becomes so exciting. So the barriers to entry come down, but I think it will see a settling down a stabilization of relationship between the telcos and the hyperscalers because they need each other as we talked about previously. You know, then the major providers, the Cisco's, Nokia's, Ericsson's, Huawei's, the way they interact with the telcos and then allowing that level of innovation coming in from the smaller players, whether it's on a national or a global basis. So it's actually a really exciting environment. So I want to continue that theme and just talk about telco in the enterprise. And Chris, on this topic, I want to just touch on some things and bring in some survey data from ETR, Enterprise Technology Research, our partner. And of course the telcos, they've got lots of data centers. And as we talked about, they're going to be moving certain portions into the cloud, lots of the front end pieces in particular. But let's look at the momentum of some of the IT players within the ETR dataset and look at how they compare to some of the telcos that ETR captures, specifically within the telco industry. So we filtered this data on the telco industry. So this is our XY graph that we show you oftentimes on the vertical axis is net score, which measures spending momentum and on the horizontal axis is market share, which is a measure of pervasiveness in the dataset. Now, this data is for shared accounts just in the telco sector. So we filtered on certain sectors like within the technology sectors, cloud networking, and so it's narrow. It's a narrow slice of the 1500. It responds, it represents about 133 shared accounts. A couple of things jump right out. Within the telco industry, it's no surprise, but Azure and AWS have massive presence on the horizontal axis. But what's notable is they score very highly on the vertical axis with elevated spending velocity on their platforms. Within telco, Google Cloud doesn't have as much of a presence, but it's elevated as well. Chris was talking about their data posture before. Arista and Verizon, along with VMware, are also elevated as is Aruba, which is HPE's networking division, but they don't have the presence on the horizontal axis. And you got Red Hat OpenStack is actually quite prominent in telco as we've reported in previous segments. There's no surprise, you see Akamai there. Now, remember, this survey is weighted toward enterprise IT. So you have to take that into consideration, but look at Cisco, very strong presence, nicely elevated as is Equinex, both higher than many of the others, including Dell, but you can see Dell actually has pretty respectable spending in telco. It's an area that they're starting to focus on more. And then you got that cluster below, you're Juniper, AT&T, Oracle, the rest of HPE, Telus, Lumen, which is formerly CenturyLink, Avaya, IBM. Now again, I got to caution you, this is an enterprise IT heavy survey, but the big takeaway is the Cloud players have a major presence inside of firms that say they're in the telecommunications industry. And certain IT players like Cisco, VMware, and Red Hat appear to be well-positioned inside these accounts. So Chris, I'm not sure if any of this commentary resonates with you, but it seems that the telcos would love to partner up with traditional IT vendors and Cloud players and maybe find ways to grow their respective businesses. I think some of the data points you brought out there are very important. So yes, we've seen at Microsoft as you're an AWS, very strong working with telcos. We've seen Google Cloud platform actually really aggressively push into the market certainly in the last 12, 24 months. So yeah, they're well-positioned and they all come from a slightly different background, as I said, Google with its perhaps more data-centric approach in its analytics, tools very useful, AWS with its outpost reaching out, connecting out, and then Azure with its knowledge of the Microsoft business market certainly pushing into private networks as well, by the way. So yeah, and Cisco, of course, in there does have, in its mass scale division, a lot of activity there. They're some of the people collapsing some of that routing and obstacle together. They're big push on silicon. So what you've got here is a sort of cross representation of many of the different sources of supplies who are active in this market. Now they're all telcos are big spenders. The telecom market, as we said, at 1.4 trillion dollar market, they spend a lot. They probably have to double bubble spend at the moment to get over the hump of 5G investment to build out fiber, where they need to build out. So anything that relates to that is of course a major spending opportunity, a major market opportunity for players. And we know you need the infrastructure behind it, whether it's in data centers or in their own data centers or in the cloud to deliver against it. So what I do like about this as an analyst, a lot of people would focus down on one particular piece of the market. So you have people who specialize on handsets, people who specialize on home markets and home gateways. So I tend to sit back and try and look at the big picture, the whole picture. And I think we're beginning to see some very good momentum where companies are building upon, of course, their core business within the telecom industry, extending it out. But the lines of demarcation are blurring between enterprise, telco, and indeed moving down into small business. And you think about the SD1 market, which came from nowhere to build a much more flexible solution for connecting people over the wide area network, which has been brilliant during the pandemic because it's allowed us to A, extend that to home, but B, of course, build a campus ready for the future as well. So there are plenty of opportunities out there. I think the big question in my mind is always about from going into the telco, as I say, whether they want to reduce the number of supplies on the roster. So that was the question mark against some of the open approaches. And then from the telco to the end customer, because of course the telco's 30% of their revenue comes from the enterprise market, 60% plus percent from the consumer market. How do they leverage the channel, which includes all the channels we've talked about, security, all of the IT stuff that you've already touched upon, and the cloud. So it's going to be a very interesting mix and balancing act between different channels to get the services that the customers want. And I think increasingly customers are more aware of the opportunities open to them to reach back into this ecosystem and say, yeah, I want a piece of view, Mr. Telco, but I want it to come to me through my local integrated channel because I need a bit of their expertise on security. So fascinating market. And I think not telecoms no longer considered in isolation, but very much as part of that broader digital ecosystem. You know, Chris, it's very hard to compress an analysis of a $1.4 trillion business into 30 or 35 minutes, but you're just the guy to help me do it. So I got to really thank you for participating today and bringing your knowledge. Awesome. Do you know, it's my pleasure. I love looking at this market. Obviously I love analogies like Harry Potter, which makes it bring things to life. But at the end of the day, you know, we as people, we want to be connected. We as business want to be connected and society we want to be connected. So the fundamentals of this industry are unbelievably strong. Let's hope the governments don't mess with it too much and let's hope that we get the right technology comes through and helps support that world of connectivity going forward. All right, Chris. Well, I'll be texting you from Mobile World Congress in Barcelona. And many thanks to my colleague, Chris Lewis. He brought some serious knowledge today and thank you. And remember, I publish each week on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com. And these episodes are all available as podcasts. You just got to search for breaking analysis podcasts. You can always connect me with me on Twitter at dvolante or email me at David.volante at siliconangle.com. And you can comment on my LinkedIn post and don't forget to check out ETR.plus for all the survey data. This is Dave Volante for theCUBE Insights, powered by ETR. Be well and we'll see you next time.


Good morning Hank, it's Tuesday. Greetings from beautiful and somewhat windy Chamberlain, South Dakota. So Hank, earlier today I signed what I believed to be every copy of Turtles All The Way Down currently available for sale or borrowing in Sioux Falls, South Dakota, and I met a lot of wonderful librarians and booksellers and confused target shoppers. And I also filmed the whole thing, and it would have made a great video, but then I destroyed my memory card. What happened, and I desperately wish I were making this up, is that I was eating pretzel chips by the handful because of course I was while fiddling with my memory card, and somehow my hands got confused about what was what. I mean, to be fair, a memory card and a pretzel chip have almost the exact same thickness and overall weight. But really, that's not a great excuse. So yeah, what happened is that I put the memory card into my mouth and then I chewed it. The weird part, well actually I guess it's all weird parts, but the weirdest part is that when I bit down on the memory card, my first thought was, huh, that pretzel chip is very crunchy. And so my natural reaction was to attempt to chew it again. Now, it does not appear to be damaged. There's a couple very small tooth marks, but it's toast. I'm gonna let this frustration go in a minute, but just as a parting remark, I would like to note that it says right here on the memory card that it is an extreme pro memory card. And look, obviously I shouldn't have chewed on my memory card, but I would argue that any non-food item that can be destroyed by human chewing should not describe itself as extreme pro. Alright, let's go on a tour bus bus tour. Hey, that's a palindrome. Nope. No, it is definitely not. So the first thing you see when you come inside is the driver's seat. That's where Brock lives. Once you walk onto the bus, you come to the first seating area, which I like to think of as the office. It's sort of the quiet part of the bus where everybody's always on their computer answering emails, etc. But the great thing about the office is that it's also sort of the dining room due to its proximity to the kitchen. By the way, there are the offending pretzel chips. We really have everything you need in a kitchen, a microwave, a sink, and a banana holder. Past that, you get to the bathroom. We have a very nicely appointed, a somewhat small bathroom. But there is one very important rule about the bus bathroom, which is no pooping in the bus bathroom, not because of, like, moral concerns, but you can't, the tubes are too small. Then you come to our refrigerator, which is mostly diet soda, La Croix. There's some beer, there's some baby carrots down there that nobody's ever eaten. And then past the bathroom, we have the bedrooms. Eight beautiful bunks. Here's mine. I'm sorry I didn't make my bed for you, but here are two cute puppies I got at Target headquarters. Hank's bunk is directly beneath mine. He didn't make his bed, either. And then past the bedroom is the second seating area, which I like to think of as, like, the rec room, because it contains my Nintendo Switch. So this is kind of the hangout area. Because the engine's right back there, it's a little bit louder, and there's more side to side motion. And when we first started on tour, everyone was really nauseated and nobody wanted to sit back here, but now we've all got our bus legs. And the great thing about the bus is that there's so much storage, like, you know, that bag, which contains 850 plastic turtles. In fact, there's plastic turtles everywhere. We've got plastic turtles in the shoe closet. We've got a cute little turtle moose in the Sharpie drawer. Yes, we have a Sharpie drawer. We've even got some Holden turtle fields in the microwave. See, he's wearing his people hunting hat. We've even got turtles with top hats in our popcorn and applesauce drawer. It really is kind of a turtles all the way down situation. Okay, Hank, I'm gonna go hide some signed plastic turtles here in Chamberlain, South Dakota. We're leaving them everywhere we stop. You can find hints to their location on my Instagram story. And thanks again to everyone in Sioux Falls, who was so incredibly nice to me. Sorry that I chewed on all of our memories. Hank, I will see you on Friday. Actually, I'll see you like on Thursday, but you know what I mean.


Hi guys, good afternoon So today we wrap up on the Today we wrap up on the foundation section of the class So we've looked to dualism We Have been looking at behaviorism and today we're going to wrap on behaviorism and look at central state materialism The idea that the mind is identical to the brain And we'll look at one article by Hillary Putnam brains and behavior that was designed to kill off behaviorism and On Thursday we move on to looking at functionalism and one of a handful of the most important papers in philosophy of mind since the 1960s Putnam's the nature of mental states That was really one of the first papers that articulated functionalism Which is still I think the dominant philosophy of mind Okay, today I'm going to present a way of reading the model of Putnam's Brains and behavior article that takes it towards saying that the mind is the same thing as the brain Which is not quite the same as functionalism, but we'll come on to these distinctions in just a little bit Okay, everyone should have a copy of the topics for the first essay Everyone have them. You presumably all have a quick look at them. I hope they're all well, they won't you yes, I Won't all make sense as yet, but Are there any questions about them so far any questions comments Okay, I would just draw your attention to the thing that says right at the head of the thing The first paragraph of your essay must state the main thesis for which you wish to argue in the essay The last paragraph must restate the main thesis Summarize the way in which you have argued for it and indicate any outstanding problems Somehow the psychology of it is that when you're writing this kind of essay is very natural to Have your main point your main conclusion coming as a kind of surprise to the reader. So you think How agreeably startled the reader will be when they get to the end and find out what you really think in this topic and Reading these things is someone who's writing it like that It is like listening to someone who's trapped you in a corner and is telling you a very long story And you really don't know if there's going to be a point to this or not So for the point of view of the reader the way you have to train yourself to write is to do it backwards Start out with your main point Think of it like a newspaper article a newspaper article has the main point already there in the headline Right, so your first paragraph should be like a headline for the rest of your essay saying what the take home message is So whoever's grading your essay will already by the end of the first paragraph be saying, okay What's the main thesis? What's the point going to be and then right at the end? You restate your main point go over how you argued for it And it's okay if you think there are problems for your view. I mean your main point might be look I think dualism is just fine. I think dualism is right. That's great. I believe in it I mean, you don't have to say it's but one option would be to say I believe in ectoplasm. That's fine. That's your first paragraph I think the ectoplasmic view of the mind is correct and Then at the end Restate your belief in the ectoplasmic view and indicate any problems you think there are for that view Okay, so reasonably clear what was being asked for there in the way you structure the essay So you're looking for a thesis and a defense of that thesis against possible objections Okay, Jackson Austin. Do you want to say anything? Yes Yes, I do what will I do want you to refer to texts. It's not The important point is the next one Let me just make a remark about this because this is about reference to texts But I guess you've all come across the idea of plagiarism at some point already You know, hopefully the this this class in the university in general is a very supportive environment Everybody wants you to do well the one place for the the environment turns nasty is With plagiarism plagiarism being when you take text or ideas from someone else Without saying that that's what you've done and pass it off as your own I mean it happens now and then it happens every other term or so someone just Usually, I think someone just gets in a jam They have no idea what to write about this is seeing the due date is here So you lift something off the web or something and it's kind of natural to do that but The thing is that's very easy to detect and if it happens you automatically get an F for the course And a note is sent to student judicial affairs So basically the roof falls on you. It's really a very disagreeable business so Taking ideas from other people that's the whole point of the class right you're reading these texts and You're talking to the GSIs and you're hopefully getting ideas from other people the whole time But you have to say what you're doing Is that completely clear? Yeah, yeah Anything that's clear Yeah, I mean you can use a bibliography at the end and citations along the way to references to the bibliography Or you can put the full citation in the body of the text or you can use a footnote. I don't really do the GSIs Yeah, yeah anything that's clear Yeah Is that completely clear? I mean this becomes like airport Airline, you know fasten your seatbelt messages after a while But you presumably all had this kind of message before and you know what I'm talking about Is that right? Anything in this not completely clear. So yes references to the text. I mean, hopefully you're getting something out of the class and There is there are some texts you want to refer to in the essay, okay, and so today I want to start out by just going over what analytical behaviorism is and Then Putnam's alternative view of words for mental states as cluster concepts And then what he thinks is his key argument the argument about super Spartans and the general point I want to keep getting at is that What makes the mind so puzzling is the ways in which we know about it It's very difficult to think of what the mind can be How the mind can be physical or how it can be made of anything else Given the ways in which we know about it and the ways in which we understand our own minds and other people's minds so Here's dear old corner Presumably in a state of high excitation That explaining what excited means so this is kind of explaining the meaning of saying that someone's excited, right? So here it is that physical structure Or microstructure of mysteries body especially of a central nervous system that is characterized by a high pulse and rate of breathing Which on the application of certain stimuli may be made even higher the pulse rate and the rate of breathing By vehement and factually unsatisfactory answers to questions by the occurrence of agitated movements on the application of certain stimuli Etc. So that's what it is to be excited. So you're giving a definition there of excited and he's connecting Being excited to behaving a particular way So you could try doing the same for being angry being upset being in a state of deep joy Always states This isn't this is analytical behaviorism if you look at the second essay It's talking about the second essay prompt is talking about analytical behaviorism. It's a view about the meaning of words for mental states That's a little bit confusing if you know about Behaviorism in psychology where the whole idea of behaviorism in psychology where I'm skinner in these guys Oh, we're talking about behaviorism was we don't want to talk about mental states at all the idea was Psychology is a scientific study of behavior and we should drop out talk of the mind as a lot of mumbo jumbo That's best left in the Dark Ages You should describe and explain behavior without making any reference to mental events or other internal processes So that was behaviorism as a scientific movement in psychology also now gone out of the window I mean nobody in their senses now thinks that You should try and describe and explain behavior without talking about brains or mental states right into internal states Yeah, I mean Any holdouts from behaviorism? No scientific. Yes. Yes No, the idea was to explain behavior. You should not talk about what's going on in the head at all You should simply look at The environment that the animal is in and how it's responding to that environment and you shouldn't have internal constructs the idea was that these are invariably just confusing and Don't really make sense can't really be Given clear definitions Was the objection? It really is I think I think it's fair to say it's of mainly historical interest now that scientific movement Okay, so analytical behaviorism is the idea. Have you guys come across the notion of an analytic truth? Okay, the idea of analytic is just This true in virtue of the meanings of the words that the statement just kind of spells out Some of the meanings of the words involved. So after Monday comes Tuesday Orange is in between yellow and red I mean you didn't just notice that after it's not like in the in the history of the world, you know back in the cavemen discovered that month Tuesday comes right after Monday and then they said by God look at this regularity You know it's happening again. I bet you know do We can build a system of thought here and you know some eccentrics. You say no no every seventh day every seventh week It's um you got a Wednesday right after Monday that that Yeah, that there was never such a state. I promise you there was never such a stage in human history Right, but you just explaining what you mean Monday Tuesday Wednesday and so on you just explain what the system is That's the meaning of Monday. It's the one right in between Sunday and Tuesday. That's the meaning of Tuesday it's the one right in between Monday and Wednesday, right? Yes Okay So these things are analytic in the sense that they're not really reflections in how the world is They're just spelling out the meanings of the words you're using. Yep societal knowledge Right, the thing is this isn't really it's not explicitly a statement about words this if you see what I mean It's a little bit Suckler than that though the statement about the meanings of the words. That's just a regular empirical fact the word Monday Yeah, that could be different but the word Monday could have been used for Sunday. Are you following me here? We could have used the word Monday to stand for Sunday. Yeah, but um, that's not what this is talking about This is talking about the day Monday, and that's saying that day comes right after comes right before Tuesday You see what I mean So the societal knowledge would be knowledge of the arbitrary meanings of the signs of the language But this is when you're actually using the language and you're saying something in it And the thing is this isn't giving anybody any news if you understand what that's saying you already know it's true Right, so just if you understand what any of these are saying, you know, you know that these are true Yeah So contrast There's a green fly on my roses Right, is that true and virtue of the meanings of the words? No, that would be the wrong answer right because there's I mean, I don't know idea if there's a green fly on your roses Um, the whale is a mammal. Yeah, you didn't know that just by knowing the meaning of the word well Here comes the cook. I mean Might be true and it might not it could nothing to do with the meanings of the words Well, there is something to do with the meanings of the words You see what I mean Is that reasonably clear? I'm not quite sure how to put this on a scale of one to ten How clear is that? Yeah, well, is that right? I mean, I see what you're saying, but um The the whale is a mammal that's something about the thing right you're saying is really part of what that thing is that it's a mammal Yeah, that's very plausible, but you didn't you didn't know that just by knowing that it's a whale For all you knew Whales might intrinsically be fish You had to find out Yeah, the mammals rather than fish to find out what their actual internal nature is Um, but with bachelors being unmarried if you know that he's a bachelor You know that he's unmarried If you it doesn't follow that being unmarried is part of what he intrinsically is Because in the tourist way that changes You see what I mean, um, you know, there are these stories about people who really are intrinsically unmarried, but You don't have to be as it were intrinsically unmarried just to be a bachelor That's right. Uh, the the mama one is one you have to find out. Yeah Uh, yeah An analytic truth if you just know what it's saying if you know what the words mean Then you understand what it says then you know that it's true Right if you just know what these mean these sentences you already know that they're true You don't really have to go and take a look Yeah, but you could know perfectly well what it means to say the whale is a mammal But really not be sure whether it's true You might think but no they're surely they're fish You see what I mean tomatoes or veg tomatoes or vegetables tomatoes or fruits At the moment of speaking you actually don't know which they are. Um, let's see fruit. Are they okay? Well, I'll take Sorry They've seen oh, okay. Well, you're ahead of me. Okay. Um, but you see what I mean You could know what it means to say a tomato's a fruit or well or tomatoes are vegetable But not know which way it goes which one is true Yeah, that okay okay, so What analytical behaviorism is saying well with car naps thing what he was saying was is excited That just means that's like this is a complicated version of that whale of that Bachelors are unmarried thing and there was a general idea that that really can't be true I mean some people I could be having a nervous breakdown and if I'm really keeping my cool You just might not be able to tell I might not give My answers to questions might be factually satisfactory. Even if I was having a nervous breakdown so great is my cool Right Um, I mean there are people like that, right?   You can see what car naps means there but people said that must be um A little bit too strict what car naps trying to do that So analytical behaviorism says there are entailments between this is a quote from a putnam article that we're looking at today There are entailments between mind statements and behavior statements entailments that are not maybe analytic In the way that all bachelors are unmarried is that is analytic? But nevertheless they follow in some sense from the meanings of mind words So it's a little bit loose what behaviorists were after um, but what you want is that um Well, what I want right now is a bit of chalk, but oh well. Oh, yeah, um Is that you got a word like angry? Say You got that mental term angry and then you've got a whole kind of cloud of behavior talk um Behavior talk, you know stuff about thumping the table shouting um looking for revenge That kind of stuff about the ways people behave and it's kind of loose It's not really very tightly defined that way But you only understand what angry is when you understand the connections between anger and behavior There's no more to the anger than the behavior Even though it's not really possible to specify in a very precise way which behavior is needed for someone to be angry So these entailments between mind talk and behavior talk these entailments might not let you translate mind talk Into behavior talk, but this is true for such superficial reasons as the greater ambiguity of mind talk as Compared with the greater relatively greater specificity of overt behavior talk Which so when you talk about someone's behavior Um explicitly you're usually saying something fairly definite about it Whereas when you say someone's really grumpy this morning you say look out He's on the warpath Then um what you are saying is you know a kind of behavior to expect though It's not saying something particularly definite about that behavior, but that's analytical behaviorism. Is that okay for analytical behaviorism? You see what it's saying Plain as day Okay Well the the mental terms specific in that it's one particular mental state rather than any other particular mental state But a bunch of different behaviors could um constitute you being in that mental state Yeah, you can show grumpiness in lots and lots of different ways You can smile sweetly as you dig the knife in to express your grumpiness. Yeah Okay, now the thing about this is the striking thing about one striking thing about this is Um, if that's right then you have to find out about your own mental states in the same way that other people find out About them that you find out about other people's mental states by observing their behavior, right? That's just kind of obvious The old all you've got to go on and find out about someone else's mental states is how they're behaving But on this view according to analytical behaviorism You'd have to find out about your own mental states by observing your own behavior too And last time I was arguing that uh, that's actually not as unreasonable as you might think at first Um, it's natural to think that well, I know about my own mind. All right, that's easy. I just look inside And what I was arguing is that knowledge of yourself is often very difficult It's not just a matter of glancing inside. That was um, Benjamin Franklin's insight that uh, knowing oneself is extremely hard as hard as steel or diamond um And when you think of knowledge of your own emotions, am I really in love or is it just a passing boyish infatuation? Well, I don't know. I mean you you know about these kind of things about yourself Um, in pretty much the same way that you know them about other people You you observe yourself closely.  Well, you know that about yourself in pretty much the same way You know about other people. So what I was arguing last time was that there isn't really a different basis For knowledge of your own mind from knowledge of other people's So that part of behaviorism is really pretty plausible Yeah, you don't really you I mean you're very expert in yourself But you don't really know about your own mind in a way that's different to the way you know about anybody else You happy with it Yes, that's right. Well That's right. There's going to be lots of different ways you're tending to behave um Your way of being excited might be very different from my way of being excited. You see what I mean that um You jump for joy and I um, I tap my nose significantly I raise an eyebrow And that but that's it Yeah, that's all it is to you being excited and me being excited is those behaviors even though they're different for both of us Okay. Well, this is saying there's no more to being angry. There's no more to being excited than tending to behave in those ways So you don't know about your own anger in a different way to the way you know about my anger That's the view. I mean similarly for headaches, you know, how do you know about my headache? Because I tell you because I I can play and write. How do you know about your own headache? Ah, no, not in this view in just the same way You know about your own headache because um, you hear yourself complaining You see that you're not managing to focus on your tasks Right.  It's a really broad term.   Yeah So what I'm saying is any of those sensations you find out just by observing your own behavior Okay, you comfortable with that? Yes That's right. You observe your yeah, that's right. Um, I mean, how do you teach someone the meaning of pain?  Um, I mean Well, I mean, that's very popular with small children, but that's not That's not really the recommended way What you do is you point to someone who's undergoing agony You point to someone who's had an accident and saying boy, that really hurt them Yeah, and then when you find yourself with a physical injury and yelling at the top of your voice Then you say, oh, I'm in pain too, right because I'm just behaving just the way that kid was It's because it's a similarity in your behavior that lets you know you've got the same mental state. Yeah The way I'm the way I'm talking right now. The yelling is the behavior Yeah, and and the behaviorist is saying there's no more to being in pain than doing the yelling That's at the level of the behavior talk. Yeah So all there is to finding out that someone's in pain is observing them yell So in particular knowing that you're in pain is just a matter of hearing yourself yell Yeah, it's a little bit more radical in that it's not that the body interprets the mind It's that there is no more to the mind than the body There's no more to the mind than the behavior Yeah, so just to go back to how we got here. Remember there was this stuff about is the mind made of ectoplasm or what on earth is the mind And uh, then if you say well, I just don't believe this stuff about ectoplasm And then you say well, what could the mind be what could it be to be intelligent? Well, it's a matter of behaving in a particular complicated way. Yep Oh, sir Do conscious people unconscious people suffer pen? I would have thought not but I'm not dogmatic in the point. Yeah Oh, their brain is that something's going on in their brain Also, the pain was there all along but they didn't know it Yeah, that's fine. I'm not unhappy with that. Remember we were talking last time about uh Soldiers in battle that are just like that, you know, they come to and they say good My arm Yeah That's right. That's what I mean that Oh, I see so, but they So the You're thinking that the soldiers in the battlefield might be yelling or whatever But saying I don't feel pain. I don't think that was actually the the situation. I mean this was um The Historically the first time this was noses was um at Anzio when um, uh, surgeons saw guys who had really bad injuries Refusing medication and just coming on and we're just amazed by this Um, and the idea the natural idea is it something about the focus of your attention? Well, you're in the very kind of high stress situation that these guys were in your attention is all focused on keeping alive Making your way in this difficult environment and you just don't focus on anything internal at all Yeah, so this fits with what you're saying about uh sleep, right that you could be having the pain But just not realize it. Isn't that what you're saying? behavior Without consciousness This is a different issue, but isn't isn't pain just a conscious state? Okay, Jackson. Oh, I thought you were raising your Are you coming in this? Yeah. Yeah good. Yeah Okay, um, this is interesting, but I'm not uh, anyone want to come in in that? Uh, no Okay, yep. Yes That's what he's saying. Yeah I guess what I think is very intuitive is if you can have pain without realizing that you have pain Right. Um, that's the one that I find harder. Yeah. I mean if consciousness has shut down Could there be dead people with pain? I mean how far would you push it? Very good. Yes. Yes Okay, okay. It's an interesting issue and really I mean pain is a difficult case for a behaviorist I hope that some of you are feeling that what I'm saying about pain can't be right And it can't is crazy, right It can't possibly be right But anyway Therefore I'm in pain Right I think that's a very good question I mean the behaviorist has to say well, that's just the way your body works It's nothing to do with the sensation of pain And Well, it's not ectoplasm. It's just talking about your brain It's kind of the opposite of an ectoplasmic answer actually It's saying your mind isn't involved at all in causing you to scream Your mind is only comes in in recognizing your the existence of your behavior Of your screaming the mind just is the screaming If you think that view is crazy, then I think you're completely correct, right? But historically it's been a very important view and the Yes, sure Yes If you fake it completely Then you have the mental state. That's right. Yeah Um If you deny cancer, yeah, well cancer was a mental state that would work if you denied it then there would be none of it Yeah Yes That's right Okay, so there are going to be discriminations you want to make among pens that you wouldn't be doing on the basis of your reaction Yeah, I mean if I'm a masochist and I'm really a connoisseur of pens Yeah, so I you got the paper cut you got the dividing of the flesh and you got the what was the injury to the arm Yeah, so and these are different kinds of pens that I might be you're right I might react in pretty similar ways, but when I say about the paper cut. Oh my Let's do that one again, right? What I mean, I mean I'm not I'm not suggesting you try this at home or anything Um, but if that's what I'm doing I say, oh my let's do that paper one thing again Um, then um, it seems to me very implausible of what I'm doing is observing my own behavior with great relish That's what you're saying Yes, right Then you're in a lot of pain no matter what even if it's a paper cut that makes you go Right, okay, okay good. I what you guys are basically doing is shaping up for putt to putt and I'm super spartans argument Yeah, I mean Another second and someone is going to do this. Yeah, uh, okay one two Yes That's right. So riles making this is really like riles you that I'm setting out here So riles argument was you think you naturally think of the mind as a kind of ectoplasm And then you think well, how does that connect up to all the behavior and so on and riles answer was That is so puzzling and the mind seems like such a deep mystery when you think of it like that But that is a mistake All that there are here are various ways of classifying complex behaviors That's all there is to the mind Yeah, that's that's why there are these connections there. You just get different classifications of behavior Yeah, and the great advantage of a great liberation is that it gets you away from all the stuff about ectoplasm Yeah, the unfortunate fact is that it's bunkers Yeah, I mean I I don't mean that in a technical sense Right Strongly agree. Yeah, I mean a friend of mine who watched in the city said when my mother died No one in the office could have told Yeah, you can be absolutely churned up, but I'm not sure a bit of it. Yeah, that's difficult Yeah, you might be bottling it up, but there's something being bottled up here and when the Um, when the restraints come off It's all going to pour out That's the point. Is that right? Yeah. Yeah, whereas If if I'm not bottling something up, then when the strengths come off, I don't behave any differently You see what I mean?  Yeah well, uh That this view has to say all there is to being stressed is Tending to behave in lots of different ways You know, someone says to you Watch out for bill. He's under a lot of stress right now You don't know exactly what to expect, but you know the kind of thing Yeah, his sense of humor might not be that good and so on. Yeah So it's loosely connected to behavior is what that theory says Okay So that's analytical behaviorism So I want to sketch out Putnam Putnam's got a quite different way Of thinking about the connection between the mind and behavior Which is that these words like anger or pain or whatever or what he calls cluster concepts So um He says there are a million and one different ways of saying what pain is All cluster of behaviors that exhibit pain So pain is that feeling which you can Normally events by saying ouch by wincing or in a variety of other ways Or you might not even sit at all So if your kid's learning what pain is the way they have to do it is by seeing each other when they're in pain You do have to learn what kind of behavior is connected to pain And the picture is Suppose you think Yeah, well, you're when you're sorry Yeah, when you're learning the meaning of the word pain You need someone to clue you in as to which state it is that we're talking about Uh-huh the one what? Folds Oh falls. Yes, right. Yes, right. Yes. Sure.  That's not why they're crying Yeah, they feel it, right There's two things here. There's having it and there's knowing what it is Yeah, so remember this is why I went through that stuff about analytic. We're talking really here about the meanings of words The meaning Not whether you have the state but what the word for the state means Yeah Yeah, um So yeah, okay. So you newborn infants. Yeah, they can have pain. All right But knowing the meaning of the word pain is something that comes a little bit later Yeah, it's not exactly that's how you're supposed to feel but but yeah, there's actually there's something right about that. Yeah that um You're learning the meaning of the word pain by some you've been taught the meaning of the word pain by someone who knows When your behavior is indicating pain Yeah, and then you have to be able to use other people's behavior to tell when they have in pen have pen Yeah You you really got to have that to know what pain is That's the idea Yeah, yeah No question about that animals and very young children could still have the pains. All right. They just don't know what it is What it is.  And people come to the surgery and they say things like I've got a strange cough and I'm really sensitive to light I just can't bear bright light and um, you get a whole People keep coming in with these strange symptoms. They're getting headaches and um The after a bit the doctor says look something's going on here Um, these guys are all minors. Let's suppose that have these symptoms. They are all working deep underground So you say what we've got here is no we're not just good isolated symptoms here The coughing and the sleeplessness and the light and the headaches And these are all part of a single disease There's a there's a syndrome here I mean that's usually what happens with things like legionnaires disease Or aids that you find out the symptoms first and then you say well, I guess there's a single disease here And and it's not straightforward to know when you're right to do that and when not because sometimes it might turn out Like in this example it might turn out that the cough really has nothing to do with it That there is really a new disease here But that these guys all having a cough is just a kind of accident They're getting that as a result of them all being minors, but that's not really what they what what what they're really getting here is some kind of um Migraine or something um, and it's a different kind of uh, uh disorder than What's responsible for the cough so when you've got A real syndrome here You've got a set of symptoms where if someone comes in and says well I'm getting the headaches and I'm getting the sensitivity to light and you can predict you can say to them Well, are you having trouble sleeping and they say yeah, I'm having trouble sleeping too That's when one set one of the symptoms when some of the symptoms predict the rest You regularly get these symptoms as a group then you say there's a real single disease here There's an underlying virus that is causing all these symptoms Right, that's how it goes in that that's how it went with Legionnaires disease or with AIDS that you say we bet There's a virus there. We bet. There's some underlying thing that is causing all these symptoms so I'm pertinence example is polio um, if you've got polio that having polio is not a matter of having the symptoms of polio I mean there is a virus and to have polio is to have the polio virus But the only way the virus get tracked down was by knowing what symptoms it generally produces um, so you could have the symptoms of polio But for some quite different reason some other awful thing had happened to you not polio not that virus So you had the symptoms But not the virus thing you wouldn't have polio And Putnam's idea is pain is like that all the terms for mental states are like that If Martians came down and were observing us and they saw things like um, look look at this guy He's um banging a nail into the wall with a hammer. He hits his thumb with a hammer What happens?  He cries out He winces um that happens again and again you get these symptoms And you say there's something going on here. This is the way these humans work There is something happening that is causing that cluster of symptoms Just as there can be something happening that causes a disease or the symptoms of a disease Um, similarly with something like jealousy the Martians say look, what is human love? um, how does human love work and um, you look at these symptoms and jealousy the symptoms of jealousy the part card at 3 a.m. The um The phone taps the the opening the email account all that stuff is right in there and the Martians observing this say Something's going on here. We've got a syndrome here. Let's call that jealousy now. You could have asymptomatic jealousy if you see what I mean Just as someone could be lucky and have the polio virus without having any of the symptoms You know you can have a disease asymptomatically Um, you could have the pain asymptomatically if i'm pronouncing that correctly Um, and so you have the pain, but you don't do any of that stuff But you still identified what pain is by saying if it's the it's the thing that is usually causing those symptoms Yeah one two Yeah, it implies a lot of similarity between people in their mental states Yeah, I wouldn't push it as far as saying that we don't exist as individuals or something like that Um, but just that jealousy is jealousy whether it occurs in you or in me It's yeah, it is certainly not unique. Sometimes people have ideas, you know, when you look inside yourself Your own mind is as distinctive as the taste of pitch You know, there's that Indefinable meanest that accompanies every mental state I have yeah, but makes it quite alien to anything you could have So this is contradicting that and saying no, you can have the same kind of state in many people. Yeah, yeah Yeah Yeah, okay. Well, you could have the virus, but um, the virus is I don't I mean I don't really have the technical vocabulary to explain what's going on But you have the virus, but it's just not active It's just not I mean there's a process by which the virus has to generate paralysis for example I mean here your hands out here For the virus to get to them Um, there's a process that has to go through So the virus could be there though. It doesn't go through that process Oh, well, this is this is I mean this to be a simple example um It seems complex that's unintentional. Um, uh, I mean, I think that is how words for diseases work, right? Yeah, I mean some I mean there is aren't these there are these famous cases of people with hiv Where um, they've got the virus all right, but it's just not showing up in symptoms anymore Yeah, it's not right. There are people who live for 10 years or more with Yeah, they're right. They're right. You don't have any symptoms for the first while. Yeah Yeah, so there's a process by which the virus generates the symptoms and you could have the virus without that process being gone through Yeah, yeah, you still needed the symptoms to get on to the virus Yes, exactly to identify it in the first place. Yep That's right So the idea is that's like someone who has the symptoms but without having the virus No, it fits very well with it because um, that sort of thing about someone could have the um Uh, if you've got all the symptoms of polio, but you don't have the virus.  You say oh my god all that stuff, but um, you don't have the pain If the use if the right cause isn't there So pain is the cause of all those symptoms, but you only manage to identify that thing by knowing what the symptoms were So what we this is putting them what we mean by pain is not the presence of a cluster of symptoms But rather the presence of an event or condition that normally causes those responses Right, so this is what you guys are saying really. It's not the behavior. That's the important thing is the feeling that is underlying the behaviors Yeah, so behavior is still important because behavior is how you Diagnose the thing in the first place the Martians looking at us Um, I'm saying there's such a thing as love. There's such a thing as jealousy There's such a thing as being really grumpy These are useful classifications that let you get on to that let you target the underlying causes and human beings So that's Putnam's theory of mental state concepts as cluster concepts Right the pain the behavior is diagnostic of the underlying mental state And the thing is what is the underlying mental state? It's a brain state. I mean, we all know what causes behaviors. There's different aspects of your brain So if you think of it like that, the the pain must be a brain state Because we know the causes of behavior Okay Yep Yes, it throws it out. Yeah, this is throwing out analytic behaviorism This is saying analytic behaviorism was right to give some importance to the behaviors But the behaviors are important as symptoms Not because they actually define what the thing is Yep Okay So here's Putnam's killer argument The argument about super Spartans And really this is a very simple argument and he is basically amping up what a lot of you guys were saying If you guys amped up what you had been saying just 10 minutes ago Then you get this argument The idea is that you have a people who think is very I don't know undignified or shows low breeding to Exhibit any signs of pain.  Do they hop? They do not Do they even so much as raise an eyebrow or flare an astral? They do not They don't behave in any of those ways And let's suppose that if you do behave in those ways, you are very unpopular You are not going to mate If you behave in those ways When you have pain if you exhibit pain in any way then Your line dies out So people might say they're in pain, but they don't do any of that undignified stuff of yelling or shouting or whatever Bangy in the floor pleading And eventually after many centuries these people are born that way So after a few centuries when these people feel pain They're not it's not even that they have to bottle it up And the tendency to express the pain has just been bred out of them So they feel pain all right. They can be undergoing the agonies of the damned But in no way do they exhibit it to each other or even when they're alone And they don't have any tendency to exhibit it Putnam's point is that makes perfect sense I mean, I'm not saying it's likely, but it could perfectly well happen. Yep That's a great example you could have a race of um I don't know what the opposite of a Spartan would be. Um, yeah, super super hypochondriacs who are always exhibiting pain behaviors Yeah, who exhibit pain behaviors more or less continuously or at any rate at random. Yeah, that could be too Yeah, and the pain behavior has just lost any connection to the sensation of pain You can make sense of that too. Yeah, absolutely. That yeah, that has never occurred to me, but of course you're right. Yeah, um Okay So if you have these super Spartans then the analytical behavior picture isn't true Analytical behaviorist picture isn't true of them at all. They have the pain all right But they don't have the slightest tendency to express it in their behavior And many of you guys were saying things more or less along those lines This is a very simple example that makes the point There is an x world where these people don't even talk about pain anymore So the I mean, they don't do anything as low-bread as talk about pain Um, but they still have the pain if you divide their flesh They still suffer We were talking earlier about whether someone in a coma or someone asleep could feel pain And um, yeah anesthetics are actually pretty interesting. Uh, there was a case of an anesthetic that was found to combine um An analysis of how the anesthetic worked was that it combined a muscle relaxant And an amnestic that is by an amnestic. I mean it had something in it that made you lose your memory For the time during which it had been administered. Yeah, so it was used for surgical operations this thing um, and when you think about how that's working um, well There you are on the operating table. You've got this muscle relaxant So whatever is going on as they cut open your ribcage Um, you're not going to be able to move at all because you have the muscle relaxant And afterwards they'll say to you you're okay. You're saying fine because you have the amnestic But just between you and me would you want to take that anesthetic if you're going in for the operation? Yes, yeah Is it a painkiller a hypnotic and a relaxant, right? Okay, suppose you missed out the painkiller And you had only the relaxant and an amnestic Yeah, people would wake up from their operations And say that was fine That's your guess. Yeah, they might feel worse, but they wouldn't be able to pinpoint it and say I was suffering Yeah, that's the whole point of having the saying there's an amnestic in there. Yeah, yeah Exactly. You don't have the slightest tendency to behave anyway Yeah, because that ability has been taken away from you But the terrifying thing is you could still be feeling every moment of it as they saw went through your ribcage This was actually used It depends what you mean by awake if someone who's can't move an inch Awake Presumably. Yeah. I mean that's the thing Um, you couldn't have told by looking at them. You couldn't have told from their behavior Yeah Sorry, I do. I hope this is not too horrific You okay? Okay, but you wouldn't want to use that right so Pain and your knowledge of pain there's a little bit indirect the connection Um, I mean these soldiers in the battlefield or the football players or whatever Um, they also suggest that you've got to be attending to to um to know that you've got the pain If you're not attending then it seems entirely possible that you could have the pain but not know about it I mean we had that example of um, you've got a headache and then you're watching a movie that is very gripping And uh, you get caught up in the movie and then the minute the movie slows down You notice the headache again Um, I mean sure that that happens the whole time right that um, but it seems kind of strange to say well the headache went away It's not that the headache went away. You just weren't noticing it. So now consider um Putnam's x world again. So you had these super Spartans who bred never to express pain Now you could if you can imagine that you could also imagine that the super Spartans are bred Never to attend to their own pain right, it could be that um It's just it's just thought of as self-indulgent. This is a warrior people. They do not bother Indulging in noticing their own pain. They just get on with stuff Um, yeah, there are some parts of the present-day world for you might think is kind of like that. Um I was once I once talked to somewhere from new york about um, what was so awful about pain and he said well I kind of get it gets in the way You can't you can't get on with life if you have pain and really that Anyway, um, that's the kind of new york attitude. Don't attend to your pain, right? Don't even notice it yourself. So you can imagine that going on her generation after generation It's not just that you don't express your pain to other people You don't even attend to it when you have it yourself Maybe now and then it accrues on you, but basically you just blank pain. You just get on with stuff um now It seems to me you could imagine a why a world like that It's not just that other people don't know about your pain. You don't even know about it except now and then and the thing is That could be our world It could be that this room right now Is an ocean of suffering It's just that for generations of breeding You don't have the tendency to express it in your behavior anymore You don't even have the tendency to attend to it yourself It's only with great difficulty that you could be brought to attend to your pain So this room right now Though everyone looks outwardly calm And some are frankly asleep Despite there's calm surface It makes perfect sense to suppose that everyone is suffering enormous physical agony Yeah, the exiles He he yes Yes, uh Yes, well, okay If you don't like it happening in a few centuries it could happen over many many thousands of years I see what you mean. Yeah. Yeah Well, I guess what we'd have to suppose is that there are some genetic tendencies I mean people differ genetically in how much they tend to express their pain or attend to their own pain And that those genetic differences are gradually amplified Yeah, yeah, yeah, yes, yeah Yeah, the um The the analytical behaviorist is going to say that's not a contradiction. It doesn't make any sense. So, yeah, okay Okay, so you are you all I've gone backwards Um Okay So we all happy with that an ocean of suffering Okay, um So here here's part i'm stating his theory what we mean by pain is not the presence of a cluster of responses But rather the presence of an event or condition that normally causes those responses And then you can go further and say well, what is that cause?  Well, it's your brain, right? Your brain makes you do that stuff That's what they do over in the psychology buildings the neuroscience buildings They look at how your brain makes you do stuff So if what's causing the hopping and wincing is the state of the brain Um, and pain is just whatever that cause is then pain must be a brain state Yeah What's wrong with that? Well your hand for example, uh, I'm sorry. What do you mean? Is there a reaction well any behave behaviors are typically caused by the brain that's right And if the words for mental states are names for the causes Of behaviors, then they must be names for particular types of brain state Yep, that's okay. That's straightforward enough Okay, that's central state materialism. Yeah um The idea is It often happens you can have two different ways of identifying one and the same thing And for example, you say there's heat There's what you feel the thing the thing about the about the object you feel When you put your hand in a radiator or um into ice There's heat and then there's a scientific identification of heat as a motion of molecules People knew what gold was um in ancient times But you can say that stuff that everybody knew about that is um, uh atomic number 79 Or water that people knew about for a millennia. That just is h2o Right, so you can identify the same thing two different ways So you can take lightning and say there you go. What what what in the world is that? Well lightning is what is lightning lightning is Discharge of electricity caused by ionization of the atmosphere Am I remembering that right is it discharge of ions caused by electrification? No Okay discharge of electricity caused by ion is ionization of the Atmosphere and you look at the lightning and you think gee whiz. Look at that. Look at that stuff. Look at that How could that be something as prosaic as a discharge of electricity caused by ionization of the atmosphere? But it just is right. It's just the same thing Um, so similarly you say pain. How could pain be c-fiber firing? How could this thing I feel right now? How could that be c-fiber firing? Well, it just is it just it seems kind of unlikely that the lightning is electrical discharge due to ionization Of the atmosphere it seems kind of unlikely that pain is c-fiber firing, but they're both just true That's what this interstate materialism says it just is a kind of state of your brain Yeah, you diagnose that there must be such a state in the same way you diagnose that there must be a virus underlying hiv And you use zone in it by the behavior, but then science can take over and say and here's what that stuff is So pain is the underlying cause of your wincing hopping crying out sucking your thumb and so on We found out scientifically it's in your c-fibers fire that you do that stuff Therefore pain is just c-fiber firing Okay, we can pack we can actually pack up the class there, right? I mean what board do you want? Yes Yes, that's right. Yeah, like like lightning and um Discharge of electricity due to ionization of the atmosphere. Yeah Those are the two different ways. Yeah Yeah, we you usually think that one of them is is telling you what it really is um So you'd think this is telling you what the thing intrinsically is when you say c-fiber firing whereas just describing it as um Whatever is typically causing this stuff. That's like just your way of yeah Exactly right right just as you could say what legionnaires disease was by saying the kind of context in which you get it And what the symptoms are or you could do it by specifying what the virus is Yep, okay very good. Yep. Yeah, this is materialism. Yeah. Yeah, it says pain just is the c-fiber firing So all there is to the mental state is things going on with this bit of matter. There's more to no more to it than that Um, did I write that out? Yeah pain is c-fiber firing, right? There's no more to pain than c-fiber firing Forget all that stuff about ectoplasm and forget the idea that behavior is the key thing It's your brain. There is the key thing for the reason that someone just gave your brain is The cause or practically any complex behavior that you go through. Yeah Yeah, I'm uh, this is a little bit more explicit than Putnam is I think but yeah I think this is the natural reading of what Putnam is doing in that article. Yeah. Yep This throws the ectoplasm out of the window. That's right So I said there were three big views that we're going to look at dualism behaviorism and central state materialism This is central state materialism and this is throwing the other two out Yeah, it can't be right It seems to me And there are two reasons why some of you look quite concerned This is Putnam. Yes, okay this I'm saying, okay, this model No, it's fine. I'm going Over lots of different views without always Highlighting who's who's saying what but I say Putnam is saying you use the behaviors to identify The underlying brain state, but there is no more to the pain than the underlying brain state Yeah, and similarly for any mental state jealousy anger love whatever. Yeah I I think it's not that explicit Actually in that article The reason I'm pausing a bit in this is that Putnam went on in the article We're going to look at next to develop a quite different view that is really what he's famous for Yeah But it's not but my read of this article is that it is central state materialism Yeah, Putnam would not have used that term himself. I think is that what do you think you guys Yes, yes, I think in this article the natural read of this article is that it's central state materialism. Yeah, but as we'll see As we'll see there are reasons for to hedge a bit in that. Yeah Okay But certainly there are plenty of people Who comfortably say pain is C fiber firing Yeah, if you look at the articles by smart and Armstrong in the Jackson collect in the chamors collection, for example You'll see these guys are very blunt flat-footedly saying pain to C fiber firing They're real gung-ho central state materialists. Yeah Okay But and it's a very natural view, right? I mean everybody agrees that your brain's important So this is a way of saying how come your brain's important But look think about this suppose You see a flash of lightning in the sky or you see a flash of what you think is lightning in the sky There is not actually an electrical discharge Due to ionization of the atmosphere. Suppose you see that And you say wow look at that lightning But actually is not a discharge of electricity due to ionization of the atmosphere It is let us suppose the first Blast from the death rays of their approach approaching Martian battle fleet Then is that lightning? It looks like lightning But is it lightning? Of course, it's not lightning. I mean Of course, if it really is the Martian death fleet then You have other things to worry about whether that's lightning or not, but For present purposes, that's the important question and that is not lightning, right? It can look like lightning. It can seem like lightning, but it is not A discharge of electricity due to ionization of the atmosphere that is not really lightning. Yeah Symptoms can be misleading. Yeah It can feel like heat, but it is not motion of molecules and it's not heat Yeah, it could look like water And this is really the same thing as the having the symptoms of polio without having the polio. Yeah Um, but suppose you have the feeling of pain Suppose that it's 20 years from now and you are at the dentist's and you are you have um They have a scanner on you while they do the dentistry And you think my god, you feel these jolts these molten jolts I don't know why I'm using just negative examples. I should be using joy, right But somehow it's always seems more definite when you're using pen But anyway, so suppose you're at the dentist and you're feeling these jolts and the dentist is looking at the scanner And the dentist is saying I know it feels like pain, but actually it's not c-fiber firing So not to worry Don't make such a fuss I know it feels just like pain But the scanner is showing decisively that you do not have c-fiber firing Therefore it's not pain Oh, that's all right then It's not going to make you feel any better and it's not going to make it not be pain And how could it not be pain if it feels like pain? There's no more to it being pain than that Something can look just like lightning, but not be lightning. Something can't feel just like pain, but not be pain I mean Putnam puts it like this um One can have a pink elephant hallucination, right? That makes sense. You know, you're sitting in the bar Um, you look over in the corner. You see a pink elephant. You think No We've all been there, right Right So that makes sense You could have the hallucination of the elephant there, but no elephant, right, but with hallucination Could you have a sensory experience of pain without really there being any pain? That's what the dentist is trying to tell you. It's not really pain Feels like pain, but that makes no sense pain just is the sensation If you've got this in session, then you've got the pain and nobody by going into the biology of the situation Can show that you're not feeling pain And put putnam puts it like that any situation that a person cannot discriminate from a situation in which they themselves Is pain that's a situation in which you have a pain If you're in a situation that you can't tell apart from one in which you have pain That's being in pain. Yep Uh It goes two ways. Actually, let me flip forward here. Oh plastic. Yeah, um Uh, I'm saying if you think you've got the pen, then you have got the pen The thing that you're saying about the headache is if you've got the pen, then you know you've got the pen You see what I mean? You're taking the arrow this way. I'm talking about the arrow going this way Does that make sense? Oh, I see. Yes, that's right. That's right. They're the other they're the opposite. They're complementary sides. Yeah I'm I am putting our saying you can't have a pain hallucination. You're saying you can't have An absence of pain hallucination. Yeah, that's fair enough. Yeah that I I I agree that that does seem to uh, uh You could be hypnotized We're just on the half. Oh, we're gonna have to stop that. Okay, wonderful questions you guys. Thank you Okay