I think we're pretty much ready.  Who has been here like the majority of the time? Yeah, we have a few of us here. I mean, I've been here all day. I didn't even get to see much of the rest of the devcom, but that's okay. So, we've pretty much just got another hour until teardown, which means it's time for the closing speech. For those who don't know, my name is Diego Salazar. Most people on the Monero community know me as ReRar. It's not ReRar, it's not ReRar. There is an H in there. It's silent. It's ReRar. And I've been asked to shut this thing down on a positive note. It's kind of hard because Monero is so down, you know? So, oh, it's really, oh, they gave me, so I'll be doing the best I can. I'll be honest, an hour for closing speech, I've said this several times over the course. It's a bit much. Like, how do you feel this time? But, you know, I'm known in the community for my rants. Like, if you're ever on the coffee chat or something, like, SGP always like, don't set them off. Don't set them off. I'm like, oh, you want to learn about that now? Do you?  All right. So, I'll do my best to have good quality content. So, but, you know, an hour is still a long time. So, on my phone here, I've got the list of Monero contributors. And I would like to spend the next hour thinking each and every individual Monero contributor. So, without further ado, thank you, Monero Moo, wherever you are, whoever you are. Thank you, Gingeropolis, for your community work. Thank you, H.Y.C. I'm just kidding. I'm not going to do this all time. Okay. Monero has a lot of contributors. We have like more than 500 that have contributed over the past four years. It's awesome. So, we're pretty big. No, as you can see on this slide, we're going to be doing some game show. But for real, I do want to jump back to a few people in particular. There have been some amazing people that have been around this village that have helped to make it a success. So, not just in the Monero community in particular, but this Monero village. And I would like to just give a shout out to these people. Let's see, I've got them right here. First and foremost, yes, I want to give a huge thanks to Monero's partner in this village, BCOS, BCOS, however you want to say that. They've been awesome. They've been getting us food, setting up that website for the call for papers and call for everything. Just thank you, guys. I don't know if they're here right now. I don't see any of them. But they exist on some level somewhere. If you were in Anonymous Talk, then you know that we can, given enough time and resources, measure where they are. So, just keep that in mind. So, who else? Yeah, they've just, they've been awesome. I look forward to see what they're going to be doing in the future. Next up, I'd like to thank all of our sponsors, people who have been at these tables. We've had Tari, we've had Globi. We did have Alex Glo from Hackster.io. She was around DEF CON and stuff. She's been in and out a couple of times. I don't know if you ran into her. But we do want to thank the people that have been manning the tables, Covery, MRL, that type of stuff. If you've been talking with those guys asking questions, big thank you to everybody over there. We've had some random people just like step up. Like, for example, Thursday we weren't supposed to be open. And so somebody kind of left the door open. So people were, this place was full. And we were having our meeting over there. And we were gone for a couple hours. And this guy that I had never met before, Daniel, he just like popped up and he's like, oh, I can answer all the technical questions. And he saved the day. He is the hero. So if you see him, give him a high five and tip him some Monero. So I wanted to make sure to give him a shout out. Thank you so much for everything you did, Daniel. Lastly, we have a number of volunteers who self-give other time to make sure we have everything covered. Chief among these. And see, there's a lot of prep work that went into this before actually coming here. So we've had people like Michael and people like XMR Scott and stuff. If you go to our Tyga, tyga.getmonero.org, you can see all of this being planned out in the Vegas project is what it's called. Anonimal, Surrey and Surrey Noether, Sean, Anonimal, Cinnamon Flower, Power Cycle, who put on the party last night, which, yeah, Arctic Mine. And I could go on and on and on. Let's just give these people a round of applause just for all the hard work that they've done. It's awesome. Thank you guys. I consider this village a big success. I think it was a lot of fun and I would love to come back next year and do something similar. Any other volunteers that I didn't say, please don't get offended. I can't talk about everyone. Otherwise, I would break my promise about not thanking people for an hour, right? So we're going to be moving on. We're going to be moving on to something fun. This Monero game show that we've got going on here. I am going to need three volunteers, three volunteers who wants to take part. It's just a simple trivia. It's just testing how much you know who you know when you know all that different type of stuff. And there are prizes. There are prizes for winning. And if nobody, you know what, if nobody volunteers, maybe I'll just do it myself. Michael is out there and he's got one of my prizes. If someone can kind of poke his shoulder and say, can you come in here? Because we all need some stuff. But I do have some other stuff in my backpack, which hopefully nobody has stolen. I'm just going to grab it from behind this thing. This is where I hide all my stuff. Now you know. That's bad.  But the video camera didn't catch it. So that's what matters. So just one moment while I take this stuff out. So we have three fantastic little guys here. They've got this guy. We've got this guy. I'm going to put him right here. It fits right there. There we go. And then we've got, I don't know what this is, but I bought it. And so these are participants awards, also known as Everybody Gets a Trophy. But we do have one of those cool things that he were giving out the last time. What are they called? Yeah, Chip Whisper. That's going to go to the winner of this. So is Michael around or is he not? See, this is really good for killing time for an hour. This is why, you know, it's awesome. But if he's not there, then maybe we'll just give up. The winner will get one. Okay, so I might not have it on me. Who wants to be a part of this? It's just a simple trivia type thing. Let me see a show of hands. Yes, everybody. Okay, I got one volunteer. I got, was that two?  You're going to have to come onto the stage. So we got one, we got two. I just need one more. You, I'm sorry, but regular Monero contributors cannot, cannot be a part. That, I should have said that. And okay, we got three. Great. Great. Let's give them a round of applause, everybody. Thank you for coming up here. Let's, let's go ahead and introduce yourselves. If you want to go by a pseudonym, you are, go for it and give me your favorite color as well. Let's go ahead and have, scoot down just a little bit so we don't mess with the projector. Actually, I don't have any handles, so probably I just, so I was thinking something like radioactive. What do you think about it? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so maybe I, okay, so I'm blue is my favorite. Hey guys, my name is Nick, some favorite color is green. Cyber security engineer. Hi, my name is Alex. I'm from Brazil. My favorite color is blue also. And I work as an assistant engineer. So we have Alex, we have Nick and we have radioactive. Let's give them a quick round of applause. And you know, we can make this, we can make this a little personal because there's not a ton of people here, so we don't have to be super professional, that type of stuff. So like, I want audience participation in this, okay? So when somebody gets a question right, we're all going to snap. Okay, we're all going to snap. There we go. Okay. When somebody gets a question wrong, if they think they know the answer, they get it wrong. We're all going to say, oh, okay. So let's, let's practice that. Let's give it a go. Ready? One, two, three. Okay.  And the first person to shoot up their hands, I'm going to give them a microphone. And then you are going to answer the question. We have 11 questions. And I'm going to need the audience to also help me keep track of who has how many points. Okay? Because I don't want to be a single point of failure here. I don't want to be the trusted person that I can choose who wins. Okay? So this is all about decentralization. It's all you guys. So the questions are going to be up on this screen. Let's go ahead and get started. Yeah, it's sad that we don't have, that we don't have music. So I'm just going to have to beatbox into this microphone or something like that. But so we're going to go ahead and give it a go. We ready? Woo! Woo! Woo! Okay, there we go. We're getting something. So, Monero, what language does the word Monero come from? Okay, we got Alex. Monero is from Spanish. This is incorrect. Oh, okay, okay. Radioactive. Italian. Oh, this is also incorrect. Okay. Russian. I'm not quite sure what to do in this situation. Where each of our participants has gotten this wrong. That's okay. Nobody gets this point. These points are burned, okay? The word Monero comes from the language of Esperanto, which is a decentralized language. It does not have a nation. It was made by people. Well, I guess all language was kind of made by people if you think about it. So that's okay. That's okay, guys. You'll have 10 other chances and hopefully you... All right. So, who originally launched Monero? Okay. Fluffy Pony? Oh, it is not Fluffy Pony. This is a common misconception. People think that he started the project. He's the lead developer. He's not. He just sometimes merges, pull requests when he feels like it every other month. Okay, so Radioactive. Thank you for today. This is correct. Which one do you think that it is? Which one do you think that it is? A, B, or C? What's the spelling? A. This is not correct. C. This is correct. Snap, snap, snap, snap, snap. There we go. We got to be cool here, guys. Come on. We got to be cool. All right. So, we have one point for Alex over here. We're going to move on to the next question. What is the name of Monero's Hardware Wallet Project? Okay, okay. Take a guess. Monero Open Hardware Project. Mope. This is incorrect. Oh. Would you, you know what, Nick? I'm going to give you, I'm going to give you an opportunity to phone a friend. Okay? Who are you going to call? You can phone a friend in this room. You can choose one person who you think will know the answer to this question. Okay, so come on down. Come on down. It's B. This is correct. Castello. So we got one point for Nick over here. I'm sorry. I totally robbed you. You had this. You really did. But it's okay. This is also Esperanto. Yes. Castello is Esperanto for Castle. There you go. And yeah, basically a fortress type thing where the idea is that it will protect your money. It's a fortress for you. Okay, what specifications is Covry based on? Who is here for an animal's talk? Okay, okay. Tor? Oh, it's not Tor. A. A, I2P. There we go. That is correct. We've got two points for Nick over here. One point for Alex. And the guy with the coolest name radioactive, he's sitting at the bottom. But don't worry. He's got, my bet is on radioactive. My bet is on radioactive. Let's be real. Okay, so let's go ahead and move on. The pseudonyms of the Minera Research Lab researchers have the same last name. What is it? Nonsense. This is incorrect. Oh, this is sad. Okay. Yes. D. This is correct. We have Surrey Noether. Surrey Noether. We have, we have Stafu Noether.  And so it's an inside joke among them. And they kind of start to regret that as a different points in time. I would think that Dr. Privacy is the way to go. But nobody asks for my opinions on these types of things. Okay, which of these people is not a Minero core team member? See, Noodle Doodle is a member of the core team. You can imagine that people who are funded by the form funding system and kind of work for Minero, they're like, yeah, my boss is these community members and stuff. And like the people who pay me Arctic Mine. Oh, I gave you something about Noodle Doodle and like, these are their bosses. You know what I'm saying? And it's hard to say that. But alright. B. Binary Fate is a member of the Minero core team. That leaves only one option because I've already said something else. But so it's you. Oh, great. You would say hey, Arctic Mine is sitting right there and he is a member of the Minero core team. Okay, I'm going to give you guys one more chance.  Radioactive? It's all you. Okay, there's only one option left. But I want you I want you to pronounce this name correctly. And if you do, you will get this point. I'm going to give you the point because I have no idea how this is pronounced. The broony. So let's go and give him a snap. He's got another point. Alright, so how many points does radioactive have to how many points does Nick have? How many points does Alex have? Oh, okay, this now is your chance to tie this up, man. You got this. Alright, here we go. What was the first coins implement the crypto note protocol? Noodle Doodle is taco time is not. Yes. I'm on top of it, dude. Oh, okay. So I'm gonna say C. C Bitcoin did not implement the crypto note protocol. Minero. Minero was not the first unfortunately. Hey, by the coin. Bitcoin is correct. Bitcoin launched the crypto note protocol and it was a scam. So then there was a fair launch that was also a scam that the community took over and made not a scam and that coin is now Minero. Just just as a as a fun question, here's kind of a bonus round. What was Minero's original name? Bit Minero? Yes. Okay, I will give you a deck of cards. Alright, next question. When was Minero launched? 2016? This is incorrect. It was not 2016. Oh, everybody. Oh, I'm gonna say 2014. That is correct. It was 2014. Let's go and give them snaps. Give them snaps. So we have two, three and one. Don't worry. Oh, two. Oh, oh, I'm trying. See, I'm constantly trying to just kind of get Alex out of here. You guys have to keep me in check. I cannot be the trusted third party for this. I have to add this to the blockchain. I'm gonna start an ICO for this Minero game show. So that way it becomes a trustless thingy. But anyway, you know what I'm saying. Sorry. What would a token be called? Oh, Diego coin. My gosh, it's gonna sell out in seconds. Alright, don't worry. Remember, even if you lose, you will get a consolation prize.  What privacy technology does Minero use? Okay. E. That is correct. None of the above. Let's give them. We do not use dark gravity wave mining. We don't use the Wraith protocol and we do not use ZK Starks. I wish we would implement all these things. I don't. Alright, we're coming up on the close. So what is it to four and two? What does Minero mean in Esperanto? Money. This is actually a common misconception. It is not correct. Oh, it does mean coin in Esperanto. Minero means coin. So if you think about the original name bit Minero, he was trying to say bit coin, but with a little tweak to that, if you think about it, right. So mono means money. And just a little Esperanto lesson for you guys here. Mono means money and putting air in there kind of makes it a small diminutive unit of money, which is a coin. Alright, so we have two, four and three, there's still chance to turn this around with the bonus round. You know how you know how it always happens though, like the bonus round, all of the points for some reason. So it makes the entire thing invalid. We're not going to do that. But I will give three points, which will basically decide this to this bonus round. Minero is known for itself deprecating humor. It's a sign of our confidence. We're very confident in our coin.  We just deserve to die, all this type of stuff. So name two of the commonly used other names that Minero is known by within the community. Hmm. Hmm. This shows that you guys need to get involved. You know what? Whoever can answer this, I have a t shirt. I will give a free t shirt with many of these names written on it to whoever has it. Okay, hold up, hold up, hold up, hold up, hold up. I have to decide how I'm going to do this. Okay, no, you three, you three come up on stage real quick. I want the hands up of whoever has the answer to this question. Okay, hands up, hands up. Okay, we need to decide who, because they all know the answer. We need to decide who to give this t shirt to. Okay, so who wants it more? Like, let's see, let's see. Okay, HYC is kind of doing a jig over there. Okay, he's holding his hand pretty high up. Yeah? All right, that's the decision. This is binary fate. Another Minero core team member, go ahead and come up onto the stage, and you can answer this question. I'm sorry, I just completely ruined your upset, but it's the way that it is. I would say Moreno and Monteiro. Okay. Yep, there's many, many, many like Romerito, Romero, Morano, all these different types of things. Thank you binary fate, you get a free t shirt. All right, what is our ending standings here? We have how many points? 4, 4, 5, 5, 5. So we have a hard fork here, where one has him with 5, and one has him with 4. Which is it? 5. Okay, we've reached consensus. We have merged the forks back together, and we have 2, and then we have 2. I thought it was, okay, 2. All right, so you guys, go ahead and come on over here, you can choose your consolation prize, choose the ones that you want. There's this, okay, you want the hedgehog, that's fine. Okay, and so you get this one over here. And we, because you won, Nick, we're going to find Michael, and we're going to mug him until he gives you your prize, okay? So we're going to do that together. So thank you, let's give everyone a round of applause for Radio Active Nick and Alex for taking part in our little game show here. And now guys, it's that time, it's the time when we get real for a moment. You know, this is the part where the guy takes a seat, crosses leg, gets on eye level with the audience to show that we're all equals. And now we talk about the big stuff. And the big stuff for me is that I'm very excited about what Monero has in the future. Because we have a great cause, great people, great ideology, great technology, and a passion to pursue what is not present in this world. And we want to make it a reality somehow. We've got people like Anonimo who are approaching it from the physical, from the physics, the philosophical, different type of stuff. We've got people that are working with the technologies that we have now. Heck, we've got a bigger ecosystem that does include things that are, you know, commonly pushed down on like Zcash and, and you know, anything to me that pushes privacy forward globally. Even if it's a bust, at least we know something not to do and we can learn from it, right? So in, in a sense, there's appreciation across this entire space because we are all moving towards a world where we can have hard currency. We're all moving towards a world where we don't have to worry about passive surveillance looking at every single little facet of our lives. The decentralization of blockchain, the trustlessness of this system, and cypherpunk ethos of putting this type of cryptography and math on multiple levels of infrastructure to reduce the attack surface of human corruption. And that is such a great goal, something to move towards. And we will always, and this is, this is what separates for me, Monero from all these other things, is that if the price tanks, we will still have people with that ideology who will still be working on Monero. And that cannot be, that the same cannot be said for many of the other coins who are in here to make money. If the price tanks, well, their entire goal is gone. And they're going to just try something else. And you know, let them do their thing and let them do their thing in peace. And we can call them scams and laugh at them behind their back. But us, together, we can, I believe, get closer and closer day after day, year after year to this goal.  You could be a, you could be a nobody. I used to be a nobody. Okay. I like, I, Monero was my first open source project. And I got involved early 2017. I was not a nerd before that I didn't do any of the nerdy things. And then I got in, I actually got into this because I started a business to make websites. And I wanted to find a niche to make money, right? And I remembered looking and finding Monero's website. And it was really, really, really bad. It was really bad. Like most open source websites are. And, but, and so I'm like, okay, I'm going to see about redoing this website. And then I started reading. And I started reading. And I started seeing this stuff can, this stuff can change the world. This stuff can help people in oppressed countries. I've got family in oppressed countries. I can get money to them. They can get money to me. They can shield their money from oppressive governments. This is massive. And I started reading more and getting involved more and reading more and getting involved more. And the reason I say this is because I want myself to be an example. You don't have to be, you don't have to have all the information. You don't have to be in the know and everything because I wasn't, I didn't know what IRC was until like eight months ago. I'm serious. And I had never used git until like nine months ago. Ask an animal. He spent many tortured hours trying to get me to use it correctly. And I learned this stuff, you know, and there's a learning curve and that type of thing. But you don't have to have it together. You don't have to know everything. As long as you have that passion, as long as you have that ideology, that desire to see the world made a better place through cryptography and mathematics, which is what Monero does, then we could use you. And even if you have things, you disagree with us in your ideology. Well, this hurts people on the fringes because of proof of work carbon emissions. And we're trying to help people on the fringes. Well, this is actually a good point. Let's talk about it. Let's talk about it. Because talking about all the, if we just got a bunch of yes people in the same room, then we're only going to innovate in one way. But we want to help people. We want to help all sorts of people. So let's have these conversations. Civil conversations please, because otherwise it just turns into a shouting fest. But let's have them. I was actually just talking with somebody yesterday who was talking about proof of work proof of stake, you know, that whole little argument. And their core value was keeping the earth safe and keeping it okay. And this is a legit viewpoint to come from. Proof of work stake is still not a great way to secure a coin, but I can understand where their core value was coming from. And it's worth having that conversation. And so to anyone watching this recording, to anyone here right now, and just as we leave, I'm not, I'm not saying, you know, all inclusivity and like everyone hold hands and stuff, because there are going to be people that are malicious to their project, indifferent to the project, just want to be in here to make money, to can't differentiate Monero from all the other scam coins out there. But there needs to at least be available modes of discussion. And you don't have to know everything for that. We welcome questions. We welcome learning all that type of thing. And if there's anything that we have learned over these past few days in the Monero Village, it's that real privacy and real security is really hard. It's really hard to achieve. So we need to have these constant discussions. And I, that's, I think everybody who has been in this village, whether you were here for one talk, for multiple talks, because you are becoming a part of this discussion, you are becoming a part of Monero being better with your questions, with your ideas, even if they're completely counter to what we have going right now. You know what? Let's talk about it. Let's talk about it. I want to thank everybody one more time. How much time do I have left? Forever, right? I'm probably just going to end early. Who cares? What are they going to do? Kick me out? Sue me? 131. Okay, so I got half an hour left, but that's okay. We can start taking down early. Yes! Of course. Okay, sure. And so the rest of the time, we can do a Q&A. I'm totally fine with that. So the question was, there was an article that was released. The source was not given. But if that five percent of the Monero supply is being held by criminals, is that what you said? And then, okay. And so how do we feel about that? Well, there's all, first of all, there's always speculation about how much is where. But because it's Monero and private, we don't know how much anybody has. So all of this is speculation about where this stuff is coming from. How do we feel about that? I don't know. How do you feel about the fact that the cash in your pocket is just all over the place being used for drugs and being used for all this, it's the same thing. So I'm going to call SGP, the expert, up here. He's going to answer your question. Sure. I can do anything. So yes, it is a concern. Moneros has basically two features that make it appealing to nefarious actors to mine unfortunately. Number one being, once they mine Monero, it's very difficult or perhaps impossible to trace where they spend their funds. If they were mining Bitcoin or another transparent cryptocurrency, it would at least have somewhere to trace when the funds were moved, where they potentially could be going. With Monero, there's a built-in privacy protections, which although privacy protections are appealing to everyone, they're also appealing to criminals unfortunately too. Second, Monero also has a more accessible proof of work mining algorithm that specifically tries to encourage mining on normal computers. So if someone is trying to operate a botnet, for example, if someone is running nefarious activity, that they could, they wouldn't get much success if they tried to have a lot of computers and mine Bitcoin because they would not make any money off of it. With Monero, they would be far more competitive so it's one of the choices that they select. As a community, obviously we completely think it's horrible that these computers are getting infected. Unfortunately, the situation is they have an insecure computer and someone hacks their computer and one of the things that they choose to do is infect their computer with Monero mining. There are several other things that they can do in the situation. They can send out spam information. Honestly, mining is probably the least thing you should worry about if they have access to your computer. They could be logging your passwords, they could be grabbing all your bank account information that you do on there. Or they could be even doing ransomware. So these are legitimate concerns. It's not that Monero is infecting computers, it's that these computers were vulnerable, they were infiltrated and Monero is one of the things that they're using this computer for. And so as a result, we have, as a community, one of our work groups is actually a Monero malware response work group. This is specifically devoted to helping people whose computers have been compromised and are currently mining Monero. And we're in the process of making high quality educational materials for people who don't know what Monero is or like, okay, what happened to my computer and how do I fix this problem? So this is the sort of what Diego has put together here. This is the landing page. We work together to make very forward facing or like, very simple to understand mechanisms and actionable things that people can do to fix the problem. But ultimately, you need to communicate to these people that the reason your money, your computer's mining Monero is ultimately because your computer was insecure. And as a result, we have a lot of very simple information. You saw some of the really great pictures that Diego was able to put together just to try and make this easier for normal users to understand and to help alleviate this situation as much as we really can as a community. So we have a specific aspect of, a specific part of the Monero community. These are all volunteers that have come together and say, yes, it is a concern that people use proof of work algorithms, especially Monero, because of the reasons I explained earlier to mine and their mining on stolen equipment essentially. And so we're trying to help users like take back control of their equipment. And this is some of the resources that we put together. For a variety, you can see we have documentation for several problems, whether it's unwanted in-browser mining, unwanted system mining, or ransomware, which we haven't really seen with Monero yet. But if Monero continues to become more popular, I'm sure, like the WannaCry attack with Bitcoin, I'm sure we'll see more similar attacks with Monero in the future. Do you want to answer this one? So unfortunately, it's very difficult to tell who is mining who, who is mining what, especially in a botnet situation. Because until you know it's a botnet unless you're able to identify it in certain ways, in many cases, it looks like a standard computer is mining. Like if you can think of it this way, in case, suppose one of your friends comes over to your house, plugs the USB drive into your computer and starts mining, how do we tell as a network that that's bad traffic? Or is it you just legitimately interested in mining Monero? It's very difficult. Many mining pools have strict policies such that once they realize that something is nefarious, they will prevent all payment to that address and not accept any of those hashes anymore. I know support XMR, which is one of the largest Monero pools, has a strict no botnet policy. It's hard to prevent that entirely, but there are some steps we can take as a community, and these are some of the things that we've done. Anonimo looks like you have to But I mean, ultimately I think it does need to be said that Monero is freedom money. And with a powerful tool, there will always be ways to use it powerfully for evil or for something bad, right? And so, you know, we can as a community do what we can to encourage best practices, we can as a community do what we can to create software. So like if I was to make a mining pool software from scratch, maybe I'd include stuff that I'd be able to do stuff like that as if I can. Um, but ultimately it's up to people designing their own, um, their own stuff and we can encourage them, hey, please do this, but they don't have to. And that's the freedom that comes with open source. That's the freedom that comes with liberty period. And so at Monero we're hyper focused on that liberty and with the understanding that some people will abuse that freedom. And, uh, there, and that's a social, that's a social issue that just has not been solved since the beginning of human time. And we're, we're open to suggestions. If you've got great ideas, if you got great cypherpunk ideas then by all means let's do this. Do we have hands for answering this question or for other questions? Okay. Yes. For, for the mining pools you could just, uh, do email based verification before you allow any account to continue mining. Okay. So, uh, on a botnet I mean they might register with a million different randomly generated email addresses but those tend to be pretty easy to spot too and you might only approve human looking email addresses. The other, the other thing is that, um, the, the mining pools can see the computer IP addresses that, uh, the mining right?  So, the mining pools can see a little bit of what's going on. Um, the project themselves don't buy design, but, you know, there is some. This is the cool part about like the Monero community by the way is that you see I'm not up there, I don't know everything and I'm not answering all the questions, I'm just passing this mic around and people have answered these questions. Uh, there's one more issue with the, uh, surreptitious mining, the malicious mining things that we've been seeing with Monero. Uh, that's going to be inevitable in any permissionless currency. The whole point of a permissionless currency is that anybody can participate at any time and we can't hopefully distinguish between them. And yes, does that mean criminals can participate? Yes, it's unfortunate, but, um, personally, I think that the dangers presented to everyday consumers from things like Equifax is a significant bigger, significantly larger danger than malware on random computers throughout Europe and Russia. Um, I'd like a comment on this question of malware. Mining a cryptocurrency and I've removed, um, Bitcoin Miley malware in 2011 for Windows computers from people who had no idea what Bitcoin was. It is actually one of the least dangerous things you can get on your computer. If you have any kind of cryptocurrency mining malware, one really has to put the emphasis on the security operating system, the type of operating system you're running, um, and the vulnerabilities of that operating system. And it's time to consider A, do I need to change operating systems? Or B, do I need to secure my operating system? Because quite honestly, and I think this has been said before, if they're mining cryptocurrency, they're stealing your bank account information, they're stealing your credit card information, they're stealing your cryptocurrency. If you have cryptocurrency, um, you're setting yourself up for phasing attacks. I mean, the list is on and on for, uh, ransomware attacks. So I, I, I really want to emphasize that, that this threat, one has to really take a look at the security of the computer and the security operating system. Yes. One thing to note about the cryptocurrency mining problem is that a lot of people put a lot of weight on Monero and what's happening with it because they're blaming them. But the reality is, is that we should be also looking at a lot of these, I don't know, malware companies that are supposed to be making software that actually protects it. Not a single one of them are actually doing anything to help with this issue. And don't you see that as being a problem? Because right now, nobody really knows exactly what's going on when new ones are coming out all the time. But it seems that none of the hardware vendors that do antivirus software are doing anything to actually look at what these things do or stop them at all. So, you know, like, you could put it on Monero, but the reality is, is like, when we started getting viruses, we didn't blame Microsoft. We blamed the people that were making the viruses and we did something, created businesses to stop it from happening. It's important to note that Monero is a neutral tool. I don't blame Monero at all. But I do just wonder. Like, so, so obviously, there's people out there that are going to have insecure computers, right? And there's going to be, hopefully, more and more people that purchase Monero because I am a huge advocate for Monero. But I wonder if there are, if there isn't this kind of like protection, they make sure that, and I don't even know how to do it. But if there's not this protection to ensure that a single, you know, entity or group of entities isn't dominating that, is it going, do you guys think that that's going to impact the price fluctuations or the stability of the currency itself? I mean, I would definitely say it's a variable. There's a billion variables in terms of markets and they're completely irrational. So even if I was to give you a completely rational answer to your question, that is not to say that the markets will react rationally to a rational answer. So in terms of the price itself, you know, it's all like, it is. Are there, so look, we're going to go ahead and move on from this question because we're going to have to end here pretty soon. This is a great way to waste an hour. It really is. Thank you guys so much for helping me get through this. We still have 15 minutes. Does anybody else have any other questions before we finish? Because if not, we can end early. Oh, we do have one. OK, no, I'm sorry. So I like this whole group and just the ideals that you can you put out more info like for areas like the Bay Area meetups or, you know, like maybe in New York, just kind of bring that out. And I think that would kind of open up narrowing to a bigger crowd. So this has been kind of in the works for a long time. There's been various ideas about how to get things like community calendars and meetups, how to get the word out that these types of things are happening. And it's pretty tough because, you know, in terms of calendars, we want people to be able to download to their personal calendars, but we want it to still be like, well, who has the rights to update this? Who has the right to censor? Which meetings show up and which ones do not? Who are the gatekeepers of these things? You know, if it's on something like a WordPress site or something, well, then OK, the person running that WordPress site gets to choose which ones go up on there or not. Should we just allow anyone to be able to submit one? Well, now we're going to have to be faced with a bunch of spam and different types of stuff and kidnappings. And we don't want to deal with that. So this is a very big thing. And yes, we are working on that. We're working on getting SGP got a calendar up and he's the gatekeeper and I trust him. He's got a lovable face. So I'm all over SGP. He can go not that way. He's relaxed. But OK, OK, relax. What's up? Yeah, this is one of the issues. And is it an issue or is it a feature? It's just the information can be so fragmented in just all the different areas that it can go about that you might miss something if you're not following them all and not everybody has the time to follow them all. So if somebody wants to make an aggregator or something like that, by all means we could use it. Anybody else? Have a question? Have a comment? Have a criticism? A critique? Any other C word? No. Well then, I would just like everybody to give another big round of applause to all the awesome volunteers that made this village happen. That made it awesome. A big success. And I look forward to seeing if we can come back next year. We can have all of the we can have the PA system from day one from talk one. Wouldn't that be nice? Wouldn't that be nice? Yeah, let's let's tell them we were back. Let's we were all the way against the wall for several talks. Let's get a bigger room. Let's get a bigger room. Thank you, everybody, for coming. It has been a blast. I have enjoyed every day. Vegas is, you know, it's Vegas, but Def Con and you know it's Def Con, but Monero, am I right? For the blockchain. Thank you so much because you guys have been awesome. Thank you, you guys, you guys, you guys. OK, everyone, enjoy the rest of your lives.


Well my dear students, the course is Labour Policy Pakistan and the topic is focus of Punjab Labour Policy 2018 on rationalization of wages with a shift towards living fair wage. Now let us move on to discuss what is meant by the term rationalization. Rationalization is basically validation and it has nexus with the logic. It has nexus with the reasonable circumstances prevailing around. What suits to circumstances is also the relevant thing. My dear students, the topic is that Labour Policy 2018 on Punjab is shifting from the wage to the living fair wage. So wage and living fair wage should be different. It is basically new terminology which is introduced as living fair wage. How do we shift? Basically we move from one angle to another and the word fair is also important to understand. It means reasonable, in saaf par mabni, equitable or according to sense of right that is conscience. So the word reasonable means that my dear students agreeable to reason, agreeable to sound judgment, agreeable to logical. So basically what is meant by the wage should be, how much should be and how much purchasing power should be so that one worker can spend his life in a better way. My dear students, the word living fair wage means reasonable amount of salary which gives one worker routine working hours against employer day which is not hand-to-mouth money but the essential requirements of life can be fulfilled. So this is an era of transition from the living fair wage to the living fair wage. That is why this topic is being discussed with you. And Punjab Labour Policy 2018 is in favour of bringing the wage to the living fair wage status. From the very beginning, my dear students, the wages in Pakistan have been increased from time to time and after regular intervals, the government has been revising the wage figure which has been slightly increased in workers' wages. There is no doubt that under this procedure, some relief has been provided to the workers but the empirical analysis, that is scientific analysis, is that you are looking for defects and then you are suggesting that these are their solutions. So dear students, in this wage, the empirical analysis tells us that workers today want to see the status of the wage on the living fair wage status. Empirical means observed, pragmatic, realistic, investigation, breakdown, etc. My dear students, the Punjab Labour Policy 2018 promises that we accept this challenge and we will take steps to fix the suffering of the living fair wage. My dear students, because this concept of living wages is very popular in the world nowadays. Now the question arises, how can we go towards the living fair wage? It is a serious matter, it has to be developed by a modest apprentice. So the Punjab Government, the minimum wages board has been told to marathon the tripartite consultations in which there are employers, government and workers so that the living fair wage can be done. And this Punjab Labour Policy is also focusing on inviting experts to see the inflation and the price index of the last decade and then bring the living fair wage status to the living fair. We hope that the board that establishes the fair wage that will come out with a living wage that would be unanimously acceptable to all the stakeholders or stakeholders who are employer, government or workers. Hope you have understood the topic. Thank you very much indeed.


Join me and my co-hosts every Saturday at 10 a.m. and 7 p.m. Pacific for cartoons and movies at the 50th Street Studio, Twitch channel See you there Hello everybody and welcome to 30 seconds sci-fi. My name is Keith I'm going to talk this week about the Andromeda strain by Michael Creighton the movie version of Andromeda strain from the early 70s 1971 I think is one of my all-time favorite movies many people consider the movie boring because it's so dry But that's exactly what I like about it It's all science and it's excellent speculative science. I find it thrilling from beginning to end and Somehow though I never read the book. Well, I finally did and it was good. I thought the movie was better The the book gets away from that dryness a bit the the movie definitely took its cues toward that Day by day hour by hour chronicle of what's happening But the book it has a few problems with wandering from the narrative a bit There there are passages in the book that get off track like talking about the so-called virus from outer space That might actually be a living thing might actually be aliens. It starts to get a little bit Woo-woo here and there and it's pretty much because of that alone that I like the movie better I still recommend it, especially if you're interested in the movie That TV mini series that came out on the sci-fi channel a few years ago. I've never seen that and It sounds pretty awful from what people have told me Thank you for watching. Please come back next week for more book reviews And in the meantime, please become a sponsor to help me make more of these You can follow the link on screen and in the description below where you can make a monthly pledge or a one-time donation and We will see you back here next time. Bye


So thanks everyone for joining us at this 15th meeting of the sensitive data community of practice. So this community of practice is co-facilitated by the ARDC, the Australian data archive and ARNET. And for those of you who may be new to the community, it's a place where we come together from a wide range of disciplines and positions who will deal with sensitive research data and talk about the shared challenges and opportunities around working with that data. So I'd like to begin by acknowledging and celebrating the first Australians on whose traditional lands we're meeting and pay my respects to elders past and present. For me, that's the Wajak Nungar people. And I'd like to do a little bit of housekeeping to start with. So we have a community document where we'll be taking notes. I'll pop a link to that in the chat in just a moment. Because there are so many of us, I have hopefully sent you all to be on mute as you join and you may not at the moment be able to unmute yourself. It's just so that we can all hear ourselves think. Later on, when we get to the discussion section, I may be able to unmute you. But otherwise, if you have any questions as we run through the presentation, if you could enter them into the chat and then we can address them at the end of the presentation. So today, we are very lucky to have Dr. Lisa Strelan with us from the Australian Institute of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Studies, and she'll be taking us through the IACIS code of ethics for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander research. And this is, I think, a really interesting topic for our community because working with Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander data has both a lot of shared properties with other types of sensitive data. So issues around government, security, access, that kind of thing. But then also, there are some more unique elements to do with things like community consent that we need to consider. So I'm really excited to have so many of us here to hear Lisa presenting this topic. I will let Lisa get started. Excellent. Thanks, Nicola. And welcome, everybody. I would also like to extend my acknowledgement to the traditional owners of the country in which we're meeting. For us, that's the non-alcohol country. And to acknowledge the unceded sovereignty of those peoples around the country and to acknowledge the importance of the topic we're talking about today for the recognition and protection of the rights of Indigenous people to control their own heritage. And that's pretty much the foundation on which the IACIS code is founded. We don't have a huge amount of time today. It's just an hour together. So this will be a bit of a quick tour of the code. And we will be offering some training around the code that goes a bit more in depth over the next 12 months. So there may be an opportunity for you to find out more if it has particular relevance to your work and you feel like you need more information. Today, in terms of the outline of the session, sorry, Lauren's trying to keep up with me. So Lauren's driving the PowerPoint because I need to see my notes. So apologies for that. So we really just want to provide an introduction to the new IACIS code of ethics. Explore a bit about what we consider to be Indigenous data and therefore covered by the code to give you a bit of an introduction about why you need to know about the code and how to use it and an overview of the principles and how they might apply to Indigenous data. If we've got time and interest, we can also talk a little bit about applying for ethics clearance and what ethics committees might be looking for in relation to Indigenous data when they're applying a code. So firstly, it's probably useful to locate the IACIS code in our Australian research framework for ethical and responsible conduct of research. And most of you will be familiar with the first two documents, the primary documents in relation to ethical and responsible conduct. At the top of the tree is the Australian Code for Responsible Conductive Research. It's a principles-based document and it's binding on all researchers in Australia, particularly applicable to those in the university sector and the publicly funded research sector, but is also relevant to any of you who are conducting research within government or industry. The code was revised in 2018 and has particular reference to responsibilities of researchers in relation to engagement with Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people. And from that, from the code, it also has some really great guides and supporting references and most of you will be aware that one of those includes the management of data and information in research. Sitting below the Code of Conduct is the national statement on ethical conduct in human research. That applies to research that involves human participants. So any research involving human participants must adhere to the national statement and involving human participants includes their data. So it doesn't actually require research to be talking to the humans. It actually applies whenever you are working with people's data, which is important for us. The IANTSA's code really speaks to both of those. It is a code of ethics, but it also touches on some of the issues that are raised in the Code for Responsible Conduct, including things like authorship and collaboration. So the code of ethics is consistent with both those documents. It speaks to both those documents and basically looks at how you apply the foundations of ethics and responsible conduct in an Indigenous context. The national statement itself has a chapter on Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people. That's currently being revised, but again, the code elaborates on how to apply those principles appropriately in Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander research. Many of you will also be aware that there are specific other guidelines that might apply to your research if you're doing animal research, clinical research, genomics, those kind of things. So we won't talk too much about that, but just so that you're aware, there are other codes that may apply to your particular work. There's also ones around evaluation and quality assurance. Sorry, Lisa, I think we may have lost your sound. There we go. Brilliant. Back again. Not sure where you lost me, but hopefully. Oh, just 20 seconds ago. OK, so what is Indigenous data? So let's start from there. So Indigenous data, if you didn't hear me, refers to any information or knowledge regardless of its format that is about or may affect Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples collectively or individually. The in relation to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander research, the idea of collective impact is actually really significant as well as what we're used to, which is things that are concerned with individuals and individual data, individual consent. When you're talking about Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander data, you're talking you're looking at also obtaining having a responsibility to the collective. So Indigenous peoples as peoples, as groups that may be impacted by the research. So that's a fairly broad definition, but that definition is relatively consistent with the world is consistent with the other framework documents. It's. The questions about about Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people and we'll talk a bit more about what, you know, about means and also might affect when you're looking at working with Indigenous data. We're looking at the risks and implications for Indigenous people. When we talk about Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander research involving data, we're also talking about collections and archival collections. So that is more the nature of information. So archival research is covered by the code in relation to the use of data. We do follow the principles of Indigenous data sovereignty that have been established here and internationally, and in particular the interpretation of principles. For example, the fair principles and looking at the Indigenous aspects of that that have been established for those of you who are not aware. There's the Global Indigenous Data Alliance principles called the care principles that you should be aware of and they're outlined in the code as well. Before we go through the principles, I just want to talk briefly about why all of you need to know about the code. First of all, you want to use the code in order to ensure you're conducting Indigenous data projects ethically and with respect to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people. There are... There is guidance in the national statement and the other guides that are associated with the key... the two key framework documents. But the code of ethics goes into much more detail, particularly around how you can structure engagement and collaboration and particularly Indigenous leadership of your research in order to comply with the code. We do have a guide that supports the code, which has a lot more detail about the implementation of the principles and we will be producing more and more resources. Certainly we will be producing resources around data use and data management to support your work. A lot of the feedback we get is that people are really keen to apply the code but would very much like to understand more about the how. So we're keen to also explore any examples that you have where you've had successes in relation to Indigenous data. We'll be certainly looking for case studies and examples that we can point to of good practice in relation to Indigenous data management. It's also important to acknowledge that we can talk a little bit later about the difference between applying the code and actually the principle that all research must be ethical, but not all research requires ethical clearance and that sometimes a really challenging boundary in relation to data, particularly heavily data-based research that's not necessarily, as I said, engaging with particular individuals and communities. So looking at archival or data reuse projects that can be a really blurry line when you're not actually engaging with communities directly or with individuals directly. So we can talk a little bit more about that and I suspect that might be a source of some of the questions and discussions as we move through. And we do have our own ethics committee, which is a specialist ethics committee, a specialist Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Research Ethics Committee. And if you do need advice specifically about Indigenous research data projects, you're more than welcome to put your applications and projects to our committee. And Lauren is always at the end of the email or the phone to give you some assistance and guidance in how to navigate your particular projects through that process. So what is the framework for the IAAC ethics code? So we really focused around four main principles. At the heart of those four principles is the notion of integrity, which sits at the basically at the heart of all ethics, really, and that goes to the why and who should apply the code. In terms of compliance, we do rely on the integrity of researchers and the integrity of institutions to actually guide our ethics framework in Australia, and that's no different for the IAAC's code. The trick then is to look at how, in particular, Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Research projects look different or may look different to research that you're familiar with. And the principles that apply in relation to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Research are the concept of Indigenous self-determination, first and foremost, the concept of Indigenous leadership of research, impact and value of research and the sustainability and accountability of research. Those principles in the code are further elaborated in relation to responsibilities for each of those and we won't go too far into that given the time, but I will give a brief introduction to the four principles. So about principle one. So principle one is the concept of Indigenous self-determination and is underpinned by the United Nations Declaration of the Rights of Indigenous People and the rights that accompany that, the right to self-determination, in particular, control over heritage and the right to develop in ways that Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people see as important to themselves. Those principles of the right to be involved in research that affects Indigenous people and also the recognition of the collective nature of Indigenous societies and that often, particularly in relation to data, that there are collective rights and interests in relation to data that needs to be taken into account in relation to the research projects. What we're looking for really in terms of this, the principle of self-determination is that there is an understanding that Indigenous people will bring a different perspective, potentially, to the research based on their understanding of the impact that it may have on them or how they would like to be involved in the research. And therefore, we really want to see in projects that there's an explicit acknowledgement of how Indigenous people will be involved and meaningfully involved and engaged in the project. When we're describing what that looks like in practice in terms of how your applications and projects are designed, we're looking for genuine engagement, meaningful engagement, which includes that Indigenous people have genuine decision-making and involvement from both the design of the project right through to the analysis of the data and the communication of the research and the long-term storage and management of the data coming out of the research. In order to demonstrate integrity, Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander research needs to demonstrate Indigenous leadership. That doesn't mean that necessarily that there will be an Indigenous CI on every project. We know that that's not necessarily possible. We're not trying to sort of overburden the extraordinary Indigenous academy that we have. There are many ways in which Indigenous people can provide leadership to your research, whether that's through providing oversight of a program of research, which is often useful to think about in the context of large data sets and ongoing data projects or data gathering and analysis. So the governance of research can be reflective of Indigenous leadership, of course involvement in the research team or through genuine partnerships with organisations or groups where they, as I said, have genuine decision-making responsibility in relation to the research. It's also important that research is informed by Indigenous priorities, values, perspectives and voices. And some people might say that that's less relevant for data, but as we will sheet home again and again, data is not neutral. And data, in terms of how it was collected, how it's analysed, we bring perspectives, our own perspectives and biases to the interpretation of data. And all of those need to be checked as non-Indigenous researchers, a non-Indigenous researcher myself, making sure that we understand that data is not just data. There's a cultural context to all data, why it's collected, as I said, the way we interpret and perceive and communicate the results of that data. In terms of impact and value, the principle of impact and value, the underlying principle is that research with and about Indigenous peoples must aim to benefit Indigenous people. We can't necessarily always guarantee the outcomes of our research, but that we should have a genuine understanding that we are seeking not only to avoid harm, but to actually address the disparities in the impacts of research of the past and to actually bring benefit from the research. When we're talking about benefits, it's really important that we understand that the benefits and risks of research may be interpreted differently from an Indigenous perspective than a non-Indigenous perspective, and that needs to be at the forefront of considerations around risks and benefit. And the guide, the code and the guide both provide additional guidance on how to achieve mutual understanding of benefits and risks and how to provide evidence that you have actually achieved those considerations. One example, when we're thinking about the use of data and the kind of biases that we might bring, we really... A simple example is ensuring that we understand the diversity of Indigenous peoples in Australia and that we consider the different impacts and risks that we may have, that the research may have, particularly, for example, going to generalisations and extrapolations of findings at mass diversity that could actually do unintended harm. So again, having Indigenous perspectives and brought to bear on analysis of data is a really important way of checking that we actually have that understanding of the diverse impacts that we may have from our research and how to kind of mitigate those risks of both biases and generalisations and masking diversity. In terms of sustainability and accountability, the final principle we're looking at, particularly around data, the sustainability principle is really it goes to ensuring that the knowledge and data collected during research projects are available for use by current and future generations. So, this goes to things like your data management plans, about repatriation of data to Indigenous peoples and nations, ensuring that Indigenous people have access to data that is of importance to them and particularly important for their decision-making at the local level or the national level. So all of that gets incorporated into the code and the guide to the code. So, to give you some ideas about how to... We're managing data for the sustainability for Indigenous communities may differ from the way you might manage data more generally. So, the question then is, as I said earlier, there's a difference between understanding when the code applies and when ethical review is required. In terms of when ethical review is required, we are...we do follow the national statement and the national statement on ethical conduct and research basically says that research with Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples must be reviewed and approved by Human Research Ethics Committee. That's currently under review and might change, but it does kind of invite the precautionary principle with Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander research or research that may impact Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people that in general, you can expect that there's no... There's not really a differentiation between low-risk and high-risk. So the risk assessment that you might do in relation to other research doesn't necessarily, at the moment, apply to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander research. So research with Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people includes research with Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people's data and it's kind of a rule of thumb at the moment that that must be reviewed and approved by Human Research Ethics Committee. When you are looking at which Human Research Ethics Committee, you should be looking at a qualified... What term? Qualified Human Research Ethics Committee, and that is one that has experience with Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander research and has members that are able to speak to the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander perspective in relation to the research. I bring back to the fact that IAASIS has a specialist committee, if any of you ever need that kind of oversight for your research. So that takes us to 12.30, so I promised I would only speak for 20 minutes, so... Please don't hesitate to reach out. I'm looking forward to the conversation. I'm sure there's lots of questions you have already banked up, so we will let the father gates open and invite conversation. Fantastic. Thank you, Lisa. And yet, if you could... If you've got any questions, just pop them in the chat. I suppose I'm going to start with one. I'm quite curious about your perspective about the relationship between, say, sustainability and making data available for use for current and future generations versus how we might typically think about data access and data sharing. And I suppose particularly because I think there can often be a perspective that data sharing is something that's antithetical to how we might look at Indigenous data management. And I think it's interesting to think about that perspective of keeping data and making data available for future benefit, but how it's the same and how it's different to how we might otherwise approach data sharing. Sure. Yeah, so, you know, the general push across the research sector has been that more sharing is better, easier access to data is better. And all of you will be familiar with the fair principles, findable, accessible, interoperable, reusable. You know, the idea that researchers should have ready access to data when and if they need it, that it should be, you know, findable. And I guess the Indigenous perspective that we have tried to reflect in the code is that that is not OK, both on the principle of the kind of history of access and control of information about Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people in Australia and in other similarly colonised countries, but also on the principles of self-determination that are, that inherently lend themselves to Indigenous people being able to make decisions about what data is collected and available about them. So for those of you who are interested, I mentioned before about the Global Indigenous Data Alliance, which short is GEDA. So there's a website called GIDA-global.org. And there you can find kind of the answer to the fair principles, which I referred to as the care principles. And that is really that, you know, Indigenous data needs to be held and maintained and managed for the collective benefit of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people, or Indigenous people globally, that Indigenous people need to have the authority to control how their data is used and interpreted, and that they should have responsibility for how that data is managed and that the data is collected and managed in an ethical way, so in accordance with the IACIS code, for example. And in Australia, it's very easy to point to the why for that in terms of, for those of you who, I mean, all of you should be aware of concepts like deficit discourse. So deficit discourse is a general description, I guess, of the ways in which Indigenous people have been represented, whether it's in media or research, in relation to disadvantage without actual recognition of Indigenous people's strengths and the holding Indigenous people's values, worldviews and perspectives in great equal esteem to any other system of knowledge.  There's a seminar that I can recommend to all of you about the risks and the history that Indigenous data principles, data sovereignty principles seek to address. I recommend Maggie's work to all of you. Thanks, Lisa. And I think Leslie had an interesting sort of addendum to that, which is she points out that the A in fair is for access. So it's about knowing what the conditions are to access data. And she points out that fair is not equal to open. And I think that the care principles and more generally the code, I think, inform some of those access conditions that then are reflected in the A of fair. So they aren't necessarily two sets of principles that are in opposition, but rather principles that sort of inform one another. Yeah. Thanks, Leslie. And thanks, Nicola. Yes, that's very much the case. I wouldn't go so far as to say the A in fair is enough, hence the introduction of the care principles. But that's exactly right. So even the fair principles were never intended to be open slather. And that appropriate access is part of understanding that principle of accessible. So we've had a question about breach. Yes. Yes. Yeah. So that brings me back to the central point of ethical framework, which is integrity. So in Australia, we actually have a really strong ethics system because we have a fairly centralized research funding system. And the collaboration between the NHMRC, the Australian Research Council and Universities Australia in publishing both the co-responsible conduct and research in the national statement provides a really strong foundation for ethics in Australia. And the code fits into that framework. So in terms of responsibilities and compliance with the code, the code, the IASUS code is a requirement of any funding provided by NHMRC and ARC as well as IASUS and also any research that's conducted through the National Indigenous Strands Agency or funded by them. So the compliance really comes from the requirement that people comply with the code on the way in, so in the funding sense. And then the principles of ethical review. So it's consistent really with the other ethics framework documents. In terms of responsible conductive research, there are specific remedies and processes within universities and any research institution that is bound by the code of conduct in relation to breaches of the code itself, code of conduct itself. So that's really where we fit into the systems that you already have in place within your universities in terms of your responsibilities to your ethics committees that give you clearance and your responsibilities under the relevant policies in relation to responsible conduct. Thanks. So we've had a request. Someone just said, I am very keen to see use cases and best practice examples for research data management plans. Do you have any examples that you can share or anything that you can point us to? I'm going to ask. Lauren, we have examples. We are developing a resource specifically to showcase some of those examples and draw out the lessons learned. If anyone does need some tips, we also have kind of a log of advice from our ethics committee around data management plans. There is some fairly detailed material in the guide as well in relation to data management plans and also some of the background issues around intellectual property and indigenous cultural and intellectual property that can help in managing, developing those data plans. And there's also a bit of information around data governance. So looking at ways in which you might establish data governance committees or those kind of overarching governance to guide, especially when you've got big sets of data, to be able to help you guide access to that. There's some really good examples out there. Some are new and emerging. And there's some really great examples, one that I'm part of, which is the My Co-I study of the cultural determinants of well-being.  It's a great example. And we'll also be having a session at the IATS summit if any of you are going to make your way to Adelaide in at the end of May, start of June. We'll be having a bit of a focus on putting the principles into practice. Thanks, Lisa. I might chase up with you afterwards for some of those links and put them into our community document so that everyone can access them. I have an interesting question here. Research that impacts indigenous peoples could be interpreted extremely broadly. How is this interpreted in order to be effective? Yeah. Yeah, it can be anything. So the way that we address it in the code is to look at. So there is a definition of Aboriginal and Torres Torres Islander research in the code that you can refer to. I'm just trying to bring it up in detail so that I don't lead you astray. Have you got it there? So particularly when you're looking at data that may incidentally involve Aboriginal and Torres Torres Islander people, that doesn't necessarily mean that our code is invoked at that stage. But for example, if the data reveals something particular that's particularly unique to the Aboriginal and Torres Islander cohort and you wish to do particular further research on that part of the data, then we would be looking for you to get ethical clearance and to apply the principles of the code to that. So it's not meant to apply the code to absolutely all research in Australia. I think it is incumbent on us as researchers in Australia to think about whether there is an Aboriginal and Torres Islander perspective or unique attribute that could bring value to our projects, whether we should actually design our projects differently. But the definition that Lauren's just brought up there in terms of the code gives you a bit more specific guidance as to when you are actually looking at Aboriginal and Torres Islander research. Thank you. Do you think people need to go through it today? Just so that you know it's there? Yes, I think that's... How has the code been shared with government departments who rely heavily on Indigenous communities for research activities? Yeah, so we worked very closely with Commonwealth agencies in particular at this stage. We will be making training available to territory governments in the normal course of things. We've actually been doing some really interesting work with the National Indigenous Australians Agency over the last two years under a partnership agreement to train their staff both as researchers themselves, so using data about Aboriginal and Torres Islander people, but also as commissioners of research. So in the way that they structure their evaluations and their engagement, particularly with Aboriginal and Torres Islander organisations and communities. So there's a lot of work still to do in relation to that. There's also been some really important work done by the Aboriginal and Torres Islander Productivity Commissioner, Romley Mokak, who did a review or did a report and a kind of a proposal for a Commonwealth Indigenous Evaluation Strategy, which has ethics as one of its core principles or core pillars and is again consistent in terms of the principles of the code to be applied in evaluation. So there's kind of those two things around general kind of accessing Aboriginal and Torres Islander data and making decisions around policy and programs that are heavily reliant on data reuse. So educating governments about the fact that that is research and requires an ethical approach. And then there's the kind of commissioning of research. And the principles of the code can also be applied in relation to policy design. So because the principles are based around Indigenous partnership, about genuine partnerships and engaging Indigenous people as decision makers in research, the principles are actually equally applicable to contemporary debates around what good policy looks like in terms of code design and delegating or devolving decision-making to the local communities who are best placed to understand what's going to work in their own communities. And I think that ties us really interestingly onto another observation and question that we have here. This person says, I am a researcher by background but now work mainly with nonprofits to help them monitor, evaluate and learn from their programs, seeking formal ethical approval is often not feasible in the scope time and intention of the evaluation. Any advice? I've been working recently evaluating a service that's from a youth service that's not Aboriginal-led but 60% of their clients are Aboriginal. In that case, we did get formal ethical approval but it took a very long time and thus cost and unfortunately didn't add much value. I'd argue that wasn't necessarily ethical either. Yeah, so the evaluation sector is interesting in the fact that we've been very clear that evaluation often involves research and therefore the code should apply. And one of the things we have been working with NIAAA about to kind of improve that evaluation practice is that they need to take account of ethics in the way they fund evaluations, the time they provide but also the way that they actually assess, you know, requests for tender. So looking at the cultural competency of the evaluation team and actually asking them to address ethics in the way they structure their RFQs. So that's front-end loading it and for the commissioners of the evaluations to actually understand the value of ethics and ethical clearance has been a really important piece of work with that Commonwealth agency that of course doesn't help those of you who are working with others. So I think we are seeing an improvement in the quality of the applications that we're getting to our RAC from particularly, you know consultancy companies that are not used to necessarily putting in ethics applications. So for some, sometimes it's really a challenge for people who have never been through the ethics process to get through in a timely manner because they often get asked to come back and to resubmit or to make changes and that can take a significant amount of time. So instead of getting it through in a couple of months you're actually waiting six months down the track. So we can provide some support I guess in terms of for our ethics committee our secretariat provides support to make sure that the applications themselves are in the have the best chance of actually getting through on their first go. There are some, again we will be providing some guidance specifically for evaluation clients. I think for those of you who are involved in doing evaluations where it's just not feasible to get through in the time that's available I think it's important just to remember that you can still apply the principles and ensure that your research is ethical regardless of whether clearance is actually required or can be done. Thank you Lisa. How much evidence of Indigenous involvement and leadership is required? Often Indigenous investigators at my university feel this is an obstacle for them because we request a formal and detailed research agreement. So where would you like to bring it home? Sorry. I don't think that I'll have one. Oh, here we go. Yes, so it is often challenging in relation to for Indigenous investigators to be asked to kind of to demonstrate their own leadership and their own cultural capability and we understand that but there are still other aspects of the code that will benefit all researchers Indigenous and non-Indigenous in relation to guidance around data management or ICIP, so those kind of things. There is the requirement for a formal and detailed research agreement. The reason that we recommend a research agreement be put in place is because particularly around ICIP so Indigenous cultural intellectual property is not well protected by Australian law so that often the laws around intellectual property can actually dispossess Indigenous people of their cultural property. And so if we do want, if community wants to retain copyright for example over the data or ownership of the data then sometimes that actually requires a legal form in order for that to happen. There are other ways other than a formal agreement that you can actually address some of the issues in relation to the principles of leadership and that can go to how Indigenous people are involved as authors, researchers, collaborators and communicators of the research. So by, and the ARC and HTMLC and University of Australia guides that support the code of conduct are quite useful here when they talk about, in terms of authorship for example, an author can be someone who makes a significant intellectual contribution to the work. It doesn't necessarily require somebody to hold a pen. So that's an important principle to understand in terms of where the intellectual contributions are coming from and how you might recognise those. So, but again it's really important to ensure that that understanding of ownership, distribution of benefit, recognition of the contributions that is a shared understanding right from the start. So if there is no formal agreement in place there must be other ways in which you can evidence that you have informed consent from the individuals in the communities involved in your research. Thank you. Okay, any tips on starting conversations around this with a set of Aboriginal research without reversing to a paternalistic approach? Yeah, it's, we do put a lot of, when, as non-Indigenous people engaging in research, being cognisant of placing burdens on our Indigenous colleagues to educate us and that can be frustrating for them and difficult for us. I think understanding your own cultural capability and competency and whether you are best placed to do this research is a really good start in terms of your own critical thinking. And going in with understanding that you may be carrying your own biases is an important way of actually bridging that gap and coming to those conversations authentically and generously on your part. So being understanding of what, understanding that there's stuff that you just don't know and being able to seek advice about how to best structure your research. That's really, you know, my best advice is to go with that sort of authentic and genuine understanding of your own limitations and where you think you can contribute and where you think you need assistance. There was also a follow-up to the evaluation question about, and this is quite a common thing that there was a comment there that the application itself or the project itself was sound, but the committee may actually be the problem. And I think this is one of the challenges that we all have, that we have across the research sector is ensuring that committees are actually competent to apply the principles of the code and to understand the nuances, particularly around data projects. We will be making training available to HREX. But as I said, if you're in doubt, then please don't hesitate to access the iAccess Research Ethics Committee who have more experience, I guess, in terms of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander research. We are getting an increased demand on our ethics committee, so we are meeting more regularly.  And it was an Aboriginal hatred. So I feel for you in terms of some of the challenges that we have in terms of getting through ethics clearance. So by all means, use us if we can be of help in the future. Brilliant. Okay, I have one here asking about when ethical approval might be required. And they say, okay, a research study on an issue that includes ancillary Aboriginal peoples data, e.g. a study of respiratory diseases in New South Wales, geographical areas for all of the population, but adjusting for age, gender, socioeconomic index and percentage of Aboriginal population. So data that's coming from the ABS. So if you're adjusting for percentage of the Aboriginal population, is that a point where you need to consider this to be some Indigenous research or I'm not expecting you necessarily to tell us exactly where that line falls. But I think it's an interesting question. Yeah, and we have had this discussion. We had this discussion with our advisory group in relation to framing the code itself. And that's why we sort of try to be explicit about where the target population is not explicitly Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people, but includes a significant number or the outcomes may be significantly different. That that's not necessarily going to be Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander research. But if you want to start commenting on what that means for Aboriginal people or you want to pull out that data and interrogate it more closely, that's when we would recommend that you ensure that you have Indigenous perspectives and leadership in relation to the analysis of that data so that you don't ask the wrong questions of the data or make the wrong judgments about what the data is telling you. Thanks. So in your experience, does the responsibilities of navigating the IAPSIS code fall on central research or ethics departments or on research data management or research support areas? I would say all of the above. So in terms of applying, you know, as researchers, we have a responsibility to understand our obligations under the code and under the other two key documents in relation to responsible and ethical conduct and research in Australia. Institutions have responsibilities and commissioners of research have responsibilities. So at each of those points, we try to articulate in the code where those responsibilities lie. So under the responsibilities under each principle, we have directed to where we think this... What we think the responsibilities A-track specifically might be, what we think the responsibility of institutions might be and where we think the responsibility of the researcher lies. So we've tried to articulate that quite clearly about what this principle means for each of those particular groups. Brilliant. And someone's just asked, is there any advice on the point at which a project should come to A-track during the engagement stage? The A-track may need help in this staged review process. Yes, that's a challenge too, in terms of how much work do you do before you go for ethics clearance? Our ethics committee's guidance tends to be that... You know, we want engagement to start at the design stage. And it may be that you want to seek ethics approval specifically for that design phase. Why you might do that is if you want to, for example, publish the design... publish about the design phase, or to use data that you collect, so interviews that you might conduct in that design phase, if you want to use them later in the research. So if you think that you're developing something that's particularly innovative in terms of methodology and in terms of the co-design process and you might want to publish that, then we would suggest that you get ethical approval beforehand. The reason you might do that is because, again, those questions about who's actually providing intellectual input to that design, is it actually... You know, we don't want to end up in a situation where researchers are publishing about and claiming ownership of a process that Indigenous people... You know, reflects Indigenous people's values and worldviews and ways of working. And then that suddenly becomes published in proprietary. So those are the kind of risks that we would be looking for in that design phase that you've addressed, those intellectual contributions and the contributions from the participants in the research. So you can get ethical approval for a design phase. And it means that you won't have necessarily the aims of the project articulated in detail or the survey questions. So you would come back to the ethics committee for a second stage once you've actually gone through that with your research partners and developed those things. So that's certainly an option. So really, you know, yeah, it's kind of a... I wouldn't say it's a rule, but kind of a rule of thumb. If you are going to publish the results of your design phase, then the precautionary approach would be to get ethics review for that phase. Thanks. And we are just about to come up to time, but I think that was an interesting segue into for situations where the institution will have IP and be attributed as the primary author, are there any examples for providing attribution to communities? Maybe that's something, if we're after examples and you have some that we can share those after the meeting. I actually saw a wonderful example last week where one of the co-authors was the river. That was the subject of the research. So things are changing in terms of people's expectations, but also what we perceive as possible and appropriate in terms of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander research. So keep your ears and eyes peeled for really innovative and changing ways of improving our practice. Brilliant. And I think that's a lovely place for us to end. Thank you, everyone, so much for your participation and your questions. Thank you again, Lisa, for a really fantastic talk. And I will see you all hopefully at the next meeting. And yes, I'll be sharing the recordings. So you can share this with your colleagues. Thank you all very much. Thank you. Thanks, everybody. And sorry if we missed your question, but we'll see if we can follow up by email as well.


Is that amendment 11733.1 in the name of Douglas Lumsden, either seeks to amend motion 11733 in the name of Mary Gougeon on the appointment of the chair and to commissioners of the Scottish lands commission, be agreed, and the member should cast their votes now? The vote is closed. I call Alistair Allan for a point of order. I voted no, but I am unclear whether that was registered or not. Thank you. I can confirm your vote has been recorded Mr Allan. The result of the vote on amendment number 11733.1 in the name of Douglas Lumsden is yes 52 no 64. There was one abstention. The amendment is therefore not agreed. The final question is the motion 11733 in the name of Mary Gougeon on appointments of the chair and commissioners if the Scottish Land Commission be agreed. Are we all agreed? The Parliament is not agreed, therefore we'll move to a vote and members should cast their votes now. The vote is closed. I call Alistair Allan for a point of order. Why if I problems I would have voted yes? Thank you Mr Allan, we'll ensure that's recorded. I call Siobhan Brown for a point of order. Thank you Presiding Officer, sorry I would have voted yes too. Thank you Ms Brown, we'll ensure that's recorded. The result of the vote on motion 11733 in the name of Mary Gougeon is yes 64 no 54. There were no abstentions. The motion is therefore agreed. I would like to take this opportunity before we move to decision time to wish all members and of course all Parliament staff a very merry Christmas and happy new year. That concludes decision time and we'll now move on to members business and I ask members who are leaving the chamber to do so quietly. Thank you.