to now yeah hello everybody if it's Wednesday it's Warhammer and that must mean it's time for another episode of Warhammer Weekly joining me as always is my my own immortal guard it's Tom how you doing buddy hello friends I really went back and forth between calling you a more tech crawler and my immortal guard but I went for the nicer one because I was in a good mood today I mean I throw things sometimes sure sure and the reason I was nice to you is because I'm going to throw a zinger at our guest here okay so but a person who I've come to absolutely love but here you go also joining us this week is Miniacs Tom it's John Nenus how you doing man oh man I just became best friend I want you to know John I thought of that like four hours ago and I've just been sitting on it excited to share it as I was thinking about the intro just tonight just doing it in that much drives me but see John has the ultimate like he can clap back against me super hard if he wants to so John I'll clap back for you if that's all right you ready yeah I'm ready okay here would be my clap back if I was you and you'd be like well that's very funny Vince how did you enjoy not winning that crystal brush so many years you went when I won one the first year I went was that fun for you ouch yes you made my job easy there you go it's gonna work yeah there you go but anyways yes John Nenus obviously a great artist wonderful miniature painter big fan of death and of course a co-host of the Trapped Under Plastic podcast good to have you on brother thank you for having me and uh hello frenemies nice nice classy yeah I uh I'm happy to be here I'm always happy to hang out with Vince and I I I felt this in my soul ever since I've been a Warham and Weekly fan that Tom and I would hit it off and uh this is the start of something great there you go there you go I can't argue with that all right so we're here tonight obviously to discuss the Bone Daddies and yes obviously that's what they are uh you may know them by Osteark Bone Reapers I did use that in the title but of course Bone Daddies is what we all love them as what do you got John I I have an alternative I mean at this point Bone Daddies has got traction but I'll hear it out all right because I know this came up last week and and I'm giving this alternative because I want to reinforce Bone Daddies but what I've been referring to them as is Boner Boys so take it as you will sure I mean I mean if there's enough harvesters out on the table right okay that is so fouling you definitely yeah I'm sure that all the people who had a problem with Bone Daddies will be like yeah Bone Daddies was a line too far but Boner Boys that I can get behind just right that's where you found the sweet spot I I have so many things that I want to say that I'm just not going to that's a good plan that's a good plan uh all right uh so news let's start there do we have news like we have the stompy foot I I did the work you want to go ahead yes we have so we can start with the rumor engine because this one's actually interesting if you all are watching this uh like if you have it up on your screen it's the rumor engine from this week which is like the strange upside down smokestack cannon spiky top thing I don't know what it is but I the new plastics the new plastic seed giant that's clearly what it is is that what it does John have you seen the rumor engine I I have in my initial reaction was that it was the head of a giant hammer but I feel like where the shaft would come through another Boner Boys reference would be not pictured right there so I'm not sure I like it well it could be that you may be right it could like I like the giant hammer I like the giant that take on this because it's clearly at that angle right because the skulls are modeled face like they would they always model the skulls to be facing in sort of the direction and the little tassels that are hanging off would follow gravity so like I don't think they're tricking us by turning this thing upside down or anything like that right um but I love the idea of like they rotate it up a little bit and it is a giant spiky hammer and that's like the bottom half of the hammer and that the half is just off off camera right uh it makes me kind of sad though because if that's part of the giant release it's not classy giants it's like gnarly giants I mean you don't know that okay like my point is is that you don't think classy giants still have some dumber giant like bruisers enforcers I mean I don't want them to I want them to be classy I don't want that's too much class they're not showing up in tuxedos with monocles over here come on how amazing would that be oh good day chef oh my tiny you my friends stole my monocle joke and you were just beating it because that's class right that's what we think of mr peanut right that's class yeah if you're showing up looking like the monopoly man you're ready to go that's class uh yeah I mean look I think we're all excited about these potential angel slash elf slash giants from heish that I willed into being two weeks ago uh so I think it's going to be exciting uh did you see that nico in the what's app was like well I mean we know that anything that Warhammer a weekly says eventually comes to pass so there you go look I with the what's app has already been created I see that as just this is what's happening get on board with it uh thank you to both the people who made the meme from last week who made the galaxy brain meme for me it was wonderful and I reshared it so uh my god I would like I can't even imagine how many giant angel elves I would buy if they were like angel elf giants I would be I'd be in deep for that I'd have a stack that looks like yeah well like what's behind John right now I'd be all in for that yes indeed you would all right so yes we have our so maybe a hammer maybe something else who knows uh it does look very kassy but it also looks kind of destructiony and then it's hard to say I mean it could be that the giants aren't uh yes I agree either now or 10 years from now anything is possible that's right that's right we keep an open mind we don't put a timeline on it you know could happen any time I mean we're not foolish right right uh but uh what else we got Tom there's other news uh the FAQ dropped this week it did um for both mall tribes and bone daddies which is convenient because I'm glad we're doing the show after the FAQ just as we planned all along yeah just squeak that one in there didn't you just just right on the nose had nothing to do with other travel schedules or you know just anything or the the complexity of this book and me not wanting to read it because I don't like this army very much had nothing to do with that nothing by the way I love how you've come full circle all the way around man you're like let's do this I'm totally in bone daddies and then you're like it's not me the the the sun has rotated the sun is set by friend yes we'll get into it but I don't know that I've ever been as hot and then as cold as you ever on a launch as you were on this launch yeah no I I don't disagree all right you're right I it was a roller coaster of emotions I I remember distinctly right as this was announced where I was like I messaged vance I'm like vince do you see this and I just picked your vince at like a new year's eve party and time squared just like everything is going mad and vince is like this is the greatest thing I've ever seen and then it all went down it all just it was that was the peak that was the peak and we just slow decline ever since yeah yeah I mean you know that's fine there was nothing else exactly like that that it started and I was on it then as as I looked closer at at 10,000 feet I was in at a foot I was just like nope I don't like any of this but hold on hold on hold on Anthony so Anthony said what about KO here's the deal KO I was in so much that I dropped mad cash my stack was was like hit like John stacked behind him okay sure sure and and I still painted up the army despite the fact that they became shit also also to be very clear uh Tom didn't do anything unusual there Tom followed the Tom curve this is the so if you've ever seen like the the Gartner technology adoption curve okay for those who who are in like a software related industry you'll know what this the sort of thing is or technology related industry but Tom follows the same curve so it like starts it's basically this hype curve where it starts out Tom super hyped and then all of a sudden it just falls like a rock down below where it like into the trough of depression okay that's where Tom always ends up like right at or before release and then slowly as he starts building lists it comes out into like the plateau of whatever the name of it is like the plateau of acceptance or realism like as it goes up here that's Tom on every single thing that's new that releases star typed then hates him then he's back no like so bone daddy's I was never in a thing that you're interested in is what I'm saying like I mean maybe but like I can point to a hundred releases that they've done that you weren't at all I'm saying once you if you if it peaks your interest you go like it's amazing I hate it never mind it's good it's it's this constant cycle that I have to put up with it's my life fair enough yeah I've watched this happen so many times uh there you go all right so yeah uh was there anything in the mall tribes FAQ that jumped out I mean obviously we'll be discussing the the um the jumped out at you we'll be discussing the the bone daddy FAQ in line with it tonight I mean not just because they yeah not not significantly like uh yes yes um scrap launchers got better oh there you go yes scrap launchers did get better yeah there you go they got more melee attacks yeah they got more horn attacks on the rhinox sure like man value good value better absolutely the stock in scrap launchers keeps on increasing if you're building cannons and not scrap launchers you're doing it wrong like there's a world where like you could run a list with like 240 uh noblars in like a two like those are two drops two of your drops and it's like not a lot of points it's under half of your army sure like that's a that's a real list well you can multiple junk mobs that's what I'm waiting for right that's what I'm saying like you run yeah dead junk mobs bringing into mobs absolutely uh but the other big thing is we finally got the clarification that yes in fact the monster truck you know uh stone horn uh thunder tusk riders that don't have heroes on top uh when they become battle line are not behemoths so yay we now officially know that the six monster truck list works so yeah exciting times I mean yeah cool great uh I will say I I got a good game in this weekend where I paired up with some maw tribes and uh so we were we played a little team game this week with me running uh iron jaws and an ogre buddy who ran both of the variants so there was a murder horn and a crunch horn and boy that was fun they I mean it was just great to watch them work they do work they did in fact do work yes it was uh it was pretty great pretty great like I I'm not gonna lie this last week I was uh I was crunching some lists for acorn and um considering like well I'm gonna have to put a team's list together we're just talking with our team about some different faction stuff and destruction got flooded out there and I went I don't know I could paint up smogers like not commit anything till the new year sure but I but I could probably do that in January of course of course all right uh what else we got in the news tom uh I don't know that's my job right uh old word oh yeah my only job oh no the old world oh the old world I forgot about that that happened this week yeah so GW announced that they're returning to the old world in that everything that uh everything comes around again even square bases whatever that means and whatever the game is and if you want to see our detailed thoughts on it you can watch the hour and 20 minute video Tom and I did on Friday night where we talked through it in gory gory detail so there you go ambers like how long are you gonna be I was like I don't know like 30 minutes maybe 20 30 minutes like it's just just uh we're talking about like a very short announcement yeah we can make a lot of hay out of a picture and a suggestion so John what's your what's your take on this you didn't get you weren't on that show what do you think um it's it's G I mean I work okay in the real world I work in in marketing so that's all this is right and it is it is this to start the hype train and then to just slowly back away the drip feed it over time it doesn't even matter what it is because they don't know what it is yet anyway I exactly understand yep they know just enough to get us talking and it's it's ironic the timing of the sisters release and this they gotta have the next long-term talking point and it's really convenient that's all I'll say quite I completely agree completely agree uh so now we can wait until 2023 when whatever this thing is is a thing so there you go who cares I'm gonna laugh if it's like war master reimagined I mean like well it probably isn't but there you go you can hear more thoughts about that on the show uh all right so the all the other other quick things in the news section I wanted to mention I mentioned I'll mention it this week at the top of the show I'm remembering darn it thing number one I'll be at Kancon and I'm teaching the day before Kancon in Australia so there are two classes there's a morning and an afternoon class it's going to be a lot of fun there are three hours each uh it's going to be a super great time and I would love to have you there so if you're gonna be at Kancon and you'd like to take some do some miniature painting with me you can sign up the link is in the description so there's number one number two uh if you were a fan of our RP of my RPG focused podcast with my co-creator of this game that sits over my shoulder here uh which is NGS uh we are our podcast undesigned is back uh so we've got about what yeah yeah we've been doing it we've been we've been launching new episodes now for I think six weeks and I haven't mentioned it yet because I keep forgetting to mention it's been going on that long six months I haven't mentioned it I didn't know you were oh okay so uh so that's back uh new episodes go up every Friday as per usual it's about 20 to 30 minutes tops of a discussion about a single topic relating to RPGs uh so there you go that's that's back and the link for that is in the description as well so there you are uh all right I think that's was there any other new stuff Tom I believe that's all our news um no I think that's it all right sweet then let's do some pick of the week John what do you got for us oh pick of the week oh I've been sitting on this one for a while just waiting to get my tendrils into this show so there's a podcast that exists and this isn't my own podcast don't worry about that it's it's called legends of the painting men the legends of the painting man is a podcast put on by two professional comedians um out of Los Angeles and it's about age of sigmar so they talk about everything whether the hobby side whether the gaming side whether the lore side whether it's them imagining the characters of age of sigmar in a real world scenario and it's it's hilarious it's non-stop laughing it's so good um to see people that are very talented um comedians uh really just sit down and talk age of sigmar for an hour and a half and it's good it is not safe for work in the slightest lots of butt talk lots lots of butts um and uh don't have it on if your kids are present but otherwise it's it's great to just put on and laugh while you're painting so there's my pick of the week nice dig it I will link I yes I will link to their podcast in the description it is great uh we got to get those guys around sometime they're good guys yeah Andrew if you're watching hey let's actually set that up like we sent messages and we never I never followed up so let's let Tom do booking because I have to wait seven years for him to get a guest on the show at any rate sigmar save us yeah I did Tom what's your pick of the week buddy um yeah so uh I saw an image that I just want to like I want to spoof because it was appropriate for the show and it was really close to my heart just simply because it's very similar to the type of thing that I'm planning on doing with my own bone daddy army assuming I I pulled the trigger on this um and it's no longer here I had I just had it open here it is okay uh now how do you share photos okay unbelievable I I know that this this just gets in your craw it does I love it so much here you go uh this was shared on Facebook the death group by the way um by Sven Godenrath and it's just beautiful you see that yeah it's it's a it's a solid tombs king tomb kings conversion like it's certainly a great setra reimagined I'm curious as to the parts that were you I mean like some of the parts obvious like that the samurai is just the old uh tomb king right which is like I trotted this conversion out or one very similar to this only he actually like did the full convert of a version of catechrose where like I probably would have just been cheap and used old setra um yeah like I wonder if he he did he sculpt all that for for the setra conversion or I don't know the giant shield in the upper head because obviously the lower part of the body is just catechrose yeah the shield is um like the top of that shield it looks like is the front of the chariot yep that's the front of the chariot um and then the skull in the middle right there is the chest plate on the necrus finks like you know between the shoulder blades you know yeah yeah yeah yeah no I don't know about the rest of it that's a good that's a great question um this is obviously the bsb yeah this is the uh the carrion that was on top of the skull catapult not the one that was on top of the tomb guard um yeah yeah I like it for cool yeah so anyways so I saw this and I just loved it and I'm gonna do something similar with my my obr so because I have like 14 000 points tomb kings sitting here 10 feet from me so um that'll be low hanging fruit for me but yeah so I saw that loved it wanted to share it with everybody nice and just say by the way like you can you can imagine other like concepts other than just the generic like smiley face skull stuff like there are other worlds that would look super sweet oh sure sure sure yeah all right rock and roll uh so for my pick of the week uh I would like to direct everybody uh to a nice little new series that the honest wargamer is doing just he's brought back his little he's brought back his rundown series eight to ten minutes talks about a unit in detail um it's a good breakdown he kind of goes over the story of the thing and the points and efficiencies and what it's good at and what it's not obviously he can be doing that for for years that's that's an endless well of content uh but it's it's really nice they're quick they're easy they're good little looks at particular units and obviously he's being uh choosy about what he's doing he's not just like literally picking them at random uh but they're a lot of fun so he uh for example like he has one on the gyrocopter and on the zangor shaman and stuff like that so I'll link to the most recent one below so there you go all right so let's turn to some hobby time and what we're all working on John I have a feeling I already know what your answer is going to be but what are you working on man what's on your painting desk um yeah most of this I have uh I've got a game tomorrow 2 000 points so uh I've been I've been really working my butt off to get uh those boner boys done um I will say that they are just to the point where catacross and my catapults are mostly held together with blu-tac so I can actually paint them later um but I did have a tragic event the other night um I'm usually the guy that uh that laughs at people that spill over the gw shade pots and they go everywhere so I'm like what kind of fool would do such a thing um but last night I had a full bottle of tester's plastic cement that I knocked over sweeping directly onto my crotch um everything was just soaking wet oddly enough not a model was touched not an inch of my desk was touched not the carpet below me was touched but I was just sopping wet and so I had this 24-hour period of like worrying about the chemical reactions between the plastic cement sure it's a relatively sensitive area yeah right yeah um but uh so far so good so far so good yeah so I've been putting together a lot a lot of more tech guard a lot nice and I'm sure we're gonna talk about more tech guard quite quite quite a bit tonight uh no I understand earlier today I was like switching I was refilling like I had an almost dead paint and I had bought a new one when I was out of the game store yesterday and I was just like squeezing the old little bit of paint into the new bottle and everything was fine and I was like I had to get greedy and I was like I'm gonna get that last little bit and I squeezed the bottle real hard and pop the top off like a rock and just like there was no actual paint left in but there was all the you know like uh just sort of the remnants alongside and it just went like and this like blood spatter pattern uh was on my on my desk and hit like uh just kind of hit everything around here I had no models or anything on the table so it didn't matter so uh but it would have been funny at any rate uh my hobby time well what have I been doing what a great question let me tell you what I've been doing uh this right here you can't see it sorry wrong wrong hand this top shelf behind me that's too small for I'm sure any of our users to see or any reviewers to see but all back here is now a new army uh that's a Maw Tribes army back there it's 2000 points I painted that this weekend because this last weekend I set about a challenge and recorded myself uh throughout the process of could I paint a 2000 point army to a relatively high quality in 24 hours or less and the answer is yes yes I could uh so I recorded all of it not all of it I didn't record all 24 hours like I recorded you know steps all throughout and uh and finished up the army they're all they were all from uh primed to based and painted and and with photos in in 22 hours so there you go so I got a question Vince yeah man is this is this 22 consecutive hours or 22 total hours over the course of a weekend this is 22 hours over the course of weekend yeah oh okay you might want to that's weak weak sauce yes it was over Friday Saturday and Sunday so like I I mean I didn't sleep a ton because whatever whatever but uh I also then recorded another video in the middle of it because there was a there was a portion of it that I thought would make a good breakout video for its own subject when I was doing the work and then I had so so like I but I shot that video in like a bunch of segments and then put them all back together and that'll be coming up so you know I mean others are an easier one to do it with right like if it had been like I couldn't do the same thing with uh like some kind of zingy army because of the the filigree and the detail of those models right um and still get a quality effect um because that's the important part it's not just could I do it fast it's could I do it to a quality standard that I was still happy with yeah I glanced at your photos and I'm like mother you did tattoos on their back yeah sure of course I still did yes I'm still gonna do tattoos like why they're ogres man you're gonna break you're not gonna not gonna leave that skin just skin you gotta break that up they got them sweet tats I would have liked to if that was 24 hours straight to see what your tattoos would look like 23 and a half hours yeah both the various tattoos would those be sure I I mean I've painted just a couple more hours on Sunday to finish it up was basically how it broke out so but yeah so I got that and that was exciting uh uh so I got to uh got that army done an army 13 ready to go on this just boom knocked out uh wow and so I now I'm returning to my city's a sigmar army uh for my tempest I build for whirlwind's edge I should say and I'm working on my free guild general on griffin which this is his griffin his his griffin is a ship called the griffin and it looks like the weather light because that's what I tried to model it after and the general's right here and he's up on top and uh yeah I'm so I'm gonna get a video out of that as well talking about how to paint white on vehicles because it can be a challenging color for some people to get smooth so I'll take you through that and uh so yeah I just started on him uh today before the show but uh that's I'm excited about this thing so the ss uh griffin or maybe it's the hms griffin I don't know I don't know if it's if I don't know if it's in Her Majesty's uh fleet or not but there you go uh so that guy will be coming soon uh and then it's time to return then it's time for enough of this fun enough stupid fun stop having fun and get back to working on golden demon that's what will be that's what'll be next so that'll be the next project uh fun over back to work this isn't a place for fun this isn't a hobby that's right that's right this is not the hobby for fun if you want to paint for something like that you better get ready to work uh all right so uh gentlemen let's talk about some bone daddies shall we sure I suppose all right I guess that's why we're here sounds fine let's let's try to temper our enthusiasts that I mean the enthusiasm of the dead right there for for those that care I'm painting dwarfs sure oh yeah I did skip you I'm sorry you're painting dwarfs we know you're painting dwarfs I'm sorry Tom how's your dwarven painting going no it's okay it's okay well we've moved on good that's what I'm doing excellent let's talk about let's talk about bone daddies then uh all right so I want to start here yes I got them got that uh got that book does it still have that new smell yeah page by page let's do it page one still smells good page two how's it smell here's lists more lists all right let's do it all right so here's where I want to start John this army obviously drew you in you uh as we can all see from the boxes like you went you went all in on this okay you you were you were you were you were deep into this given that what's your overview of the army 40 000 foot view what do you like about it what do you what would you think about how would you summarize this army the army um it's very competitive it's very cool it could create some unfun play experiences for an opponent um it's not too powerful it's not underpowered I like it no I I think you hit most of the points I would have made there yes absolutely uh I will say that I would add most of your forces especially depending on your character arrays will tend to be quite elite you won't necessarily have a huge number of models on the table um there are a couple of builds that could have a very very small number of models on the table I don't know if those are the most competitive but they exist and you know even in your sort of higher count builds it still does get it's still pretty elite uh and that's a that's a weakness of the army but I have a way to remedy that we'll talk about later oh I'm excited it's it's it's 80 marauders is it is it a free 80 marauders since there's no and um it's stepping on touch down call it's yeah it's free 80 marauders all right so um so at any rate uh we'll get into that no I think that's good I I think that's an excellent summary yeah I mean they I think they are competitive you you really hit points I think are great they're I think they're competitive but not overwhelming and the one I really agree with is I think there could be some like situations that come up that are just playing experiences where you're like oh okay you know we're like that kind of happened and you're like all right yeah uh there are there are certain armies there are certain entire battle tones that simply cannot deal with this army sure they do not have the tools to be able to put a dent in them at all right so that that's a problem um not that you can't still win against them I don't I don't agree with that okay play the objective sure well Tom you want to give your overview of this then what's your feeling on them because I do agree with John's point there are a few particular armies out there that will have a very tough time dealing with some builds of this army to the point where they just they I'm not saying they won't win and that's what John was saying too right still a competitive game but you won't actually kill anything in the army that there are some forces where that could happen at any rate continue I have a hard time conceptualizing that but things would have to be built differently like like things would have to go a different track than where they've currently been at simple example nergal will not have fun playing this army go and likewise um the the this army is not going to enjoy playing nergal because nergal splashing mortals everywhere and so you can assassinate like anything in that like that got goth is our harvester you could probably mortal if you're playing a splash mortal build that's not the most popular build for nergal by far you know I mean like I'm at any rate no don't want to get into the nergal discussion stop we're still in a world let me point out where mortals trigger on six plus for blades the the burglant blades or whatever yeah yeah throw that on a set of chaos knights and they will run down any block of because blades of future faction and chaos knights are your hot nergal builders yeah I can't tell you how many times I see that list well well until you throw drain vitality on that same group chaos warriors and they have to re-roll all six to do it sure sure but they're only needing fours to actually trigger the mortals now like that's the key is that it's not like they're those rules haven't been oh my god not what we're talking about yes back on subject Tom Jesus overview of this army what do you think about what it would give give me your bone daddy breakdown um I think that it is a solid army I think that it has a lot of the same problems as stormcast I think that I think that players who are not prepared for it will struggle against it that's what I'll say okay cool I do agree that it's an army that you like if you haven't played against it it has a like a high knowledge bar to understand exactly what it's going to be capable of doing right you know what I mean like you need to actually know the army well to play against it well like if this is the first time you show up against maw tribes you know like if somebody sets up an ogre army across from you and you're in your like well I don't really know ogres like everybody kind of knows ogres right like you can look at the fakes and like okay I pretty much get what's going on here just from like a surface level understanding and like that's good enough to at least understand kind of what the army is doing it does maw tribes does what it says on the tin it's a bunch of big fat destructive boys that want to run across the table and punch you super hard and if that's your assumption and you play according to that that's at least you're in the right area you're in the right zip code this one's a lot harder to get a read on and that leads to my other just quick take on the army which is that I don't like this army at all I don't I just like I will not let that bias my review I'm still of course we're going to talk about it in detail and we're going to share positivity about yours you're just saying the play experience that generates is everything that you hate correct that's exactly right like it's the nature of how it wants to play and what it wants to do and how it wants to interact in the game is just like so unbelievably not me right like it's it it speaks to me zero percent out of all the percents so there you go it's it's ha ha you don't get to kill any of my models and I get to blow up your entire units from range without you touching me I mean to some degree yeah there's there's some of that as we'll talk about yeah yeah absolutely and just like oh that's my my overall review could literally be summed up as like oh but at any rate let's get into it sounds like fun this is not a Timmy army got them crawlers Andy huh John yeah let's get into all right no it's not it's it's not a Timmy army at all it's absolutely not uh this Maw Tribes is a Timmy army this is like Johnny Spike right here this is living in more of a you wheelhouse Tom it is it is and like it like there are lots of builds in here that actually appeal to me sure like they really do um and uh but it's just it's not something that I'm real digging so this is a tough nut to crack because everything's new and I always think about like I spent a lot of time thinking about how I want to sort of do this review because where where do you start right there's so much knowledge you need to understand this book um it's it's kind of a ball to twine to because right because you everything you talk about is related to two or three other things yeah and you're right where do you start yeah so I thought we would do is first lay down just the the basics of the army so we'll just talk about their generic sort of abilities they're there well and we'll talk about uh your your your big old bone shrine okay the bone tithe nexus so we'll talk about that we'll talk about those two since that's kind of the fundaments of the army and then I thought instead of starting with the uh sort of legions or the battalions or anything like that let's just literally go to the war scrolls and we'll kind of talk through the war scrolls that we like because that is the foundational element of the army right and we can start using them and what I'd like to do is start calling out as we do the war scrolls to the other things that they necessarily call to does that make sense so if you you can call out to specific command traits or artifacts or battalions or uh the legion so you can say like I really like these dudes in this particular legion or whatever and we can reference them like that I really like all good yeah that's the tough thing is we'll be referencing petrifices elite for every single war scroll I I really like all things in petrifices elite yeah of course uh but we'll get back once we keep moving sure we can we can certainly get to that because there's like a there's an element here where you know I mentioned how uh with the uh iron jaws with the orcs book I should say I mean let's face it that was an iron jaws book that then there was some other naked orcs that they threw in there I guess is some kind of some kind of consolation prize for people who don't have the the temerity the gall and the the the guts to run real uh iron jaws uh to run real orcs and then with the maltribes book they did a nice job of balancing like hmm do I want to be in a uh you know a chamber enclave thing tribe whatever or do I not there's a lot of benefits to both directions and many of these are compelling uh I can see you know I could see competitive builds in multiples of these uh this one feels like it's slanted much more towards just a few of those particular that that design is not present in this book right I feel as though we're gonna really be talking about like I'm gonna say two and a half of these really that's my that's my statement yes I I disagree okay um I think that one will dominate and I think that there's three others at interest okay I think they're a half step a half tweak in a couple of directions from it being much more balanced yeah they just happen to put this the best legion ability with the best command ability the same by doing that and and a not bad item not bad at all sure so we're getting ahead of ourselves though gentlemen let's get into it no you're okay you're fine I I'm the one who let us down this rabbit hole it's my fault it is all right so uh let's start I'm just gonna go ahead and we're just gonna I'm just gonna real quick order cover their base rules so first things first I'm the realist no so first things first you can include Nagash or Archon in this list even though they're not OCR bone revers and if you do they gain that keyword however you can't have any mercenaries if you have a year those two okay can I can I jump in real quick sure and say uh GW you are a hot fix away from fixing legions of Nagash or more importantly Night Haunt like if that clause was just added to the Night Haunt faction what what are you for for um letting Nagash be added to Night Haunt oh like it would fix it like you would have a competitive Night Haunt list and you want the big bone daddy to be in there yeah like the Lord of Death leading Night Haunt yeah yeah I do okay uh all right fair enough uh we'll talk about we'll talk about we'll talk about big poppa pump in a minute uh he'll he'll come up I'm sure so then there are legions okay cool we'll talk about those a little later on they have a standard sort of deathless warriors clause uh where they can you know on sixes negate things again they need to be near heroes or their champions which are the more tech hecatosis we'll talk about those in a moment when we get into the units uh but they can get your six up feel no pain uh they don't take battle shock tests because they have ranks unbroken by descent which I love that like this is the death faction that doesn't take battle shock like I can scare ghosts away and skeletons mindless skeletons and zombies oh I can scare the living crap out of them they'll just flee for their lives but these guys the ones that actually have a brain and souls well not you know a brain a mind I guess not a brain um these are the ones that are just like no we're we're rock solid so we're good fine fine whatever we're about we're about a hot minute away from they're not even what is the point of the battle shock phase right aren't we come on yeah I would have rather just seen that rule say uh anytime this model takes a bravery test any time a unit in this army is forced to take a bravery test double its bravery characteristic sure so they're just bravery 20 yeah right like then at least there there could be some situation maybe where a thing happens I don't know what that situation is but there you go at any rate if you lost 25 more tech guard you are already the lowest of the low now you're gonna lose another decent right the game is already over if you've lost 20 more yeah right I don't know in what world that happened but sure uh you don't use command points in this army uh you still get them that's they clarified in the FAQ you do in fact still get to have a pile of useless command points hey they don't do they're not useless to kurdos who might steal them sure right sure no absolutely fair so all the stealing mechanics still work they don't do anything for you how about that right uh instead you get your uh your relentless discipline discipline points which will now be referred to as you get your rdps okay because I'm not saying that whole thing you can say it if you want but I'm just gonna say rdps uh you get one rdp for each friendly bone reaper's hero that is on the battlefield you receive one additional relentless discipline point for each war scroll battalion in your army and each friendly liege that is on the battlefield liege being a keyword and a particular type of unit uh and three additional relentless discipline points if if krakatoa uh is your general and is on the battlefield you then roll a die for each friendly ostearc bone reaper's unit on the battlefield including the heroes above for each six you receive one additional rdp so there we go so you get some number yes the answer uh usually between let's like obviously catacross has a big impact on this right um but like without him let's say like three two six or seven maybe depending on a hot roll or something like that you know like you could go a little higher on a hot roll whatever whatever something like that feel about fair for your average expectation and catacross you just push that up if you don't take catacross you're taking a liege cavalos you just are and he's worth to by himself so he is both a hero and a liege yes it's in the name uh so so yeah you're probably looking at minimum three from heroes minimum plus yeah roll in 66 or more so you're probably looking at a low end of five in the top end of with with catacross 12 so yep yep that's a lot of points to burn through and unfortunately i can't spam all my writer's points now darn it i mean yes i mean thank we'll we'll we'll talk about how that was fixed when we get to that them them death writers yes so other notes about them uh rdp are used in the same manner as command points but can only be used for command abilities that appear on war scroll that has the ocr bone reverse keyword remember that negash and arkhan to absorb that keyword when they join so like you can use them to you know power negash's stuff for example his command so for ocr bone reefer legion command abilities and for the unstoppable advanced command ability below when you generate your rdp points at the start of the battle round any that you had left over from the previous battle round are lost so unlike uh cp um you you don't get to just sit on them they're an exhaustible are they an exhaust they're an exhausting resource you use them or you lose them every turn yep but they come around which is better than the start of your turn if you need to get a bunch and they double turn you and then you can pump them into the reroll your save rolls so yeah they recycle like if they double you they recycle going into their second turn yeah it's interesting because this army can be a little more double turn resistant which is is sort of a fascinating thing because of that generating at the top of the battle round trick to the rdp uh final note would be on this would be the unstoppable advance uh that you can use this command ability in your movement phase if you do so pick one friendly unit that has the hecatos keyword or is holy within six inches of a friendly more tech hecatos or is holy within 12 inches of a friendly ocr bone reapers hero add three inches to that unit's move characteristic in that phase it can still run or charge if it does not run you cannot pick the same unit to benefit from this command ability more than once per phase so basically if you wanted to do sort of you know you could imagine a world where you were literally just using all your rdp to get your army moving faster and upping their move by three to get them into position or even late game you need to like move toward an objective or something like that right way better than the generic turn or run roll into a six way better well it's interesting to not have that ability um because it is fascinating that they do lose access to those standard things like obviously they don't need the immune to battle shock so okay who cares whatever but like the uh the re-roll ones to hit is kind of a fascinating thing to lose access to as is the uh turn a run into a six it does I think end up having a marginal effect when you're sort of thinking about how far you can sort of get it something because there is some run in charge here and so like it does change the sort of nature of that calculation right because you can't guarantee oftentimes we could do that calculation where you say like well I can move 12 I can run six in charge that's 18 plus my charge you know some 25 whereas here you've got to just kind of hope for the the better roll right well you're still going to average like if you do have run in charge and you use that you're still going to average six sure you get three plus that three no I agree absolutely I'm just saying it's not as rely like with the command point to a six you know what your number was yeah it was six well you can you can take that to the bank but adding it to your straight up to your move means your four inch move more tech guard now we're moving seven and you're much more likely to get into charge range rather than so that run of six doesn't really help you there to be the aggressor I think the biggest thing that this army is missing out on of not using standard command points is the re-roll a charge cp oh my gosh it's so important that's big very big it's so important agreed I was actually going to comment on it later but but I agree we can we can talk about now too because when I got when we got into the units it was one of the things I was going to talk about when we look at like sort of how they're functioning and how you can expect them to work it is interesting because it's not that these units aren't offensive they certainly have plenty of very hard hitting units but it makes it more interesting to play this army in a consistent fashion where you're like on the traditional offense right where you're planning to be the aggressor is what I think I mean right because there is a bit of when you look at armies like that have lots of built-in re-roll charging and have bonuses to charge it's very easy for those armies to just be the aggressor because they know they're going to be able to land yeah right right and yes just roll nines always okay as we know that is how you roll as long as you always just roll nines this game gets so much easier so I played a as an aside I played my son that this week and he's playing iron jaws he had like a super hard iron jaws list moved up with like a block 15 broods was just feel it really good and I was playing my like knight haunt cavalists so I had like 10 x-rays 5 x-rays a chariot and two harbingers so like not a lot and I was like all this is gonna go well and uh I basically wiped him off the table because I charged with everything and rolled nine plus on everything yeah sure like got six rounds of combat and it didn't it didn't go well for him I felt real bad about my son but I'm like well this is what happens kids just roll nine exactly it's a dice game kids this is where you learn that life isn't fair boom yep yep I mean all right so let's talk about the bone tithe nexus because that's the other thing that's obviously a core part of this army that we have to that's going to show up all the time when you choose an ostearc bone reaver's army you can include one bone tithe nexus when terrain is set up for a battle any bone tithe nexuses must be set up by the player whose army they are part of before any other terrain features are set up more than three inches from any objectives and more than six inches from the edge of the battlefield set up the rest of the terrain as described in the core rules uh no I refuse to do that and stop trying to make me your terrain rules nobody's using them put that away stop it stop referencing them they don't exist you're referencing when I when I click through that link it's error 404 uh silly rule is not found okay so you can just forget about that um and at any rate if both players can set up terrain features before then blah blah blah roll off and whatever well this is an interesting little canard isn't it now uh it's a curved ball that you have to set that because and I think the reason we should explain why they're saying you got to set this thing up first is because if they told you you have to set it up through like three inches from other terrain features like you know say the um like the slanesh mirror or whatever it would never go down it would never go down it would just wouldn't fit on the board because it's it's giant it's eight and a half inches by eight and a half inches square which is madness 200 millimeters by 200 millimeters there is simply not a base in the game that size no and you obviously plop it on the center of the table almost every time so yep you're just mostly in in range of it all the time so obviously what this creates is an interesting situation for tournaments that I think can be rather easily addressed like I think this is probably too much hay that's made of this in the discussion but like the the tournament discussion that happens here is like when I roll up to a table there's already terrain there that's not a choice I can make right right so uh I I think the answer is just like G.O. is just putting their packs like either they can you can nudge or you know like you can nudge existing terrain or something like that or how it gets implemented there's a couple they basically said and this was a punt because this got asked in the FAQ and I've never seen a harder punt in my life right G.W. is like ask your T.O. which by the way is the right answer like I don't fault me that at all that is literally the right answer because no I agree with that the right right answer is get it your DeLorean go back in time and when they send you the test print of this you say great scale that to 40 percent right like I know that's what's just gonna happen that render should have been scaled down so it's like four inches or three and a half by three and a half and that still would have been perfectly big and fine would have been like the corn altar or something the FEC throne like the king's throne is like if it's on a 75 mil right it's just his his chair just the chair sure yeah so you know it's going to be like nudging or you replace a piece of terrain or you just fit it wherever you can or something hold on stop stop stop herner is that your official call for the holy events can I just nudge your terrain I think I think the Steve's tables it's a little different because his stuff is some of that can't be nudged it's it's unnudged I know I know it is I know it is no all right so at any rate that's how that's an interesting fun thing about the nexus the rules of the nexus which we should talk through real quick is that it's it's obviously it's the big thing with foreheads and it's you know it's it's just like it's it has the quintessan uh uh look to it and uh so in your hero status you can choose for this terrain feature to unleash one of the following punishments it's a mix of like the quintessans and the thing from uh from never ending story uh look that was one of the greatest movies of all time and we all know it so at any rate uh it's second to willow it's second to willow that's you're a madman never ending story is a better movie than willow uh you can get on I'm on Tom's idea yes wow thank you john vent get the hell off the channel that's all I'm saying I want I feel that's it weigh in folks better movie willow or never ending story I want to know I want to know what the audience thinks on this one we're going democratic oh look and I like willow that's not me bagging on willow willow's an amazing movie okay like willow's great um so at any rate uh I love you take a shot I don't love her she kicked me in the face that's great it's great I use that quote all the time great yeah so it can do four different things it shoots off stuff that happens on like an x plus two of them are on a four plus two of them on a two plus they have pretty decent ranges and do stuff it's roll it it's rolling in vents wow I'm shocked at all this willow support boom uh labyrinth wasn't on the list get out of here stop trying to cheat uh I I believe that unfortunately willow was apparently the winner there so all right fair enough all right but uh I just don't think any moment in willow is as emotionally crippling or crushing to uh to young minds as the swamp of uh of despair or whatever as a tray you and that horse if you're telling me there's any scene in willow that emotionally compares to that I disagree I don't know seeing all your heroes get turned to pigs is kind of it's kind of close no it doesn't because that's played as a comedy scene no no no no no no sorry no there is a scene uh when when they show up uh this is just apparently what the show's about now at the right um and uh tears lean and it's like it is the savior it's it is the hope of the world and they show up and it's been cursed really like like that was dark like and like trolls and then the hydra comes after the wand mishap and man I tell you it's drops the acorn yeah like like oh yeah that troll's gonna eat him I mean it's look those are those are fine uh not the swamp okay I'm sorry I would cry right now if I watched that scene like if I just flipped over and put that scene on on YouTube right now first we'd get demonetized secondly secondly I had half the audience to be balling at any rate uh yeah so the bowtide nexus can do things uh like give uh get on a four up it gives a unit neg one to hit it can do immortal wounds uh hold on stop yeah a unit holy with an 18 of it for uh minus one hit yes yes absolutely that's correct uh it can it can on a two plus do immortal wounds uh it can pick a wizard within 36 inches on a two plus subtract one from casting the spelling and binding roles for that unit until your next hero phase and uh it can pick one unit holy within 18 inches and uh on a four plus that unit cannot run until your next hero phase and a d6 is used to make charge rolls for that unit instead of 2d6 obviously very punishing the more significant effects like the neg wanted to hit and the lethargy are both holy within 18 inches and uh only fire on a four plus so not as reliable whereas the two kind of more uh not as powerful it's still useful abilities are on a two and long and what I would say is that like you don't often have control of their unit being holy within 18 like it's not like a train move no they could choose to like string a model right right like which is like that's like for those 30 blocks or those really scary large blocks that you want six move hero for one and then i'm catapulting his face right he's in sure so sure okay enough for me the reason I like this is it plays into the design joints by gw to make this a strategy focused army right where you're making decisions in the lord of strategy to oversee his his source of resources which are the rdp and then the nexus feels like another layer of that is that executed to his full potential I don't think so but I think like it's it's it's a deeper army that requires a lot more decisions um and I respect that so so apparently the stream did still drop for like a half a second but uh that's fine we're back now so I thought I fixed it but no in fact it's not it's just YouTube hates me and I don't know but whatever we'll be like I'm watching the never ending story apparently it looked like it just skipped for a second but that's fine uh okay all right so let's uh let's get into some uh into some war scrolls gentlemen shall we and I feel that there is no more apropos war scroll to start on we're not going to start on the heroes we're not going to start on big papa on on big bone chat no we're not start with any of that stuff we I think we have to start with the fundamental building block of this army that is also perhaps the strongest unit in the army uh and that is of course I speak about uh Vakmortian no I'm just joking we're talking about the guard we're talking about the more tech guard yeah sure all right so John you want to break down the more tech guard for us give us some basics here and what you see these guys and and why they're incredibly good so um this is only one of two battle line in the army and that's an important note when we're talking about elite army your battle line has to do work so this is a good design choice it's 130 points for 10 or 440 for a block of 40 uh they either take spears or swords I'd argue that I will always take swords even in a block of 40 um and so they hit on three is wound on fours the swords are rend one one damage the spears are range two inches but no rent otherwise the same stats the leader can take a special sword it's just one better to wounds also has run and they have the the hecatos what do they call it more tech hecatos dude which allows you to get your six up save after save for death um as long as you're in unit is entirely within six inches of him which is not easy for the big blocks but for all the years that I have played death I can tell you how nice it is to be able to throw a block of 10 or even 20 off somewhere and not have a a stinking hero babysit them that is so big so um their command ability that they don't need a hero to do for them they can just do it if their mortal hecatos is alive or more tech hecatos is alive is in the combat phase they can just choose to re-roll all save roles so they have uh four up save originally one wound in four inch move basically they have a three up save uh asterisk petra facts the lead so a three up re-rollable save persistently unless uh they're fighting something that strikes first and it's not their turn right so so let's let I good oh and then did you did you mention the nato right weapons oh I didn't so their weapons they are a natural uh hit roll of six explode for two hits two hits it's yes the new favorite mechanic that we're just we're just sprinkling that around everywhere now uh everybody gets the two hits uh ogres get it with a couple of clubs these dudes have special swords it's just like hey you get two hits for sixes and you get two hits for sixes everybody gets two hits for unmodified sixes that's cool and and obviously a lot of things in the army will have the nato right weapons so we'll we'll see that mechanic repeat it over and over can I say I'm glad they do that instead of like increase the render on that attack by one if you roll a six oh my god I'd rather just add more dice yeah like I'm more nice awesome that's in the easy mechanic to deal with yeah no it was just funny because we when we played that teams game we had four players at the table this last weekend yeah and everybody's army had because like there was a sylvaneth player who was in the um who was in the grove that allows you to explode on sixes whichever one that is I don't remember which one it is because I can't keep any of the sylvaneth stuff straight but it was like everybody at the army had exploding everybody on the table had exploding sixes in some way that was just like well this is getting common uh at any rate um I was not playing sylvaneth so there you go there there up on the shelf and haven't come out at all uh so the uh I shouldn't just kept him with me kept him at my house uh I really wanted so let's break these guys down you you were you were good but now now as we can let's talk out to some some of the hooks here four inch move four up save two attacks each with a normal one inch range I agree like the swords are gonna be how you often see them because of the built-in rend and rend is you know pretty good I mean do they really have a four up save though really well I'm just again we'll get there neg one one damage when you look at that and you say okay even with their ability to re-roll their saves that's okay like that's not bad for 130 certainly but when you look at like some other elite-ish infantry one wound infantry out there right I mean sequiturs look at sequiturs like sequiturs can do this regardless and they get to choose whether they want to re-roll hits or re-roll you know re-roll the hits or re-roll all all uh states and they're 130 for 10 wounds on a four up save sure I was thinking about as well about Phoenix guard obviously right would be another in person there are one inch reach in the 32 mil basis they do not pack the offensive punch that these guys can because of two ranks sure no no no these guys are yeah these guys are 25 yes yeah yeah no I was thinking about the interest like and that's why I said I think Phoenix guard is an interesting comparison well Phoenix guard or 160 I understand that but then they have that like they're in that same elite-ish infantry role yeah right um also having rend but having a four up feel no pain and blah blah blah right yep yep which is like a four up re-rollable kind of but better yeah better um and so and and yes your sec keys are on on 40s because they're stormcast they're not even on 32s yes oh yeah uh but your but your point is well taken they're on a big base not not teeny baby 25 well they also have the two hand weapons but yes okay so and now now is when we can talk about petrofex elite let's just do it right now let's break it out let's talk about petrofex elite because it's you can't talk about more tech without talking about petrofex elite the petrofex elite is obviously one of the uh legions as they're called here chambers enclaves tribes whatever uh these sorts of concepts and uh john why don't you why don't you take us through petrofex elite my man all right so every legion's got four things it gives you one ability one command ability one command trait and one artifact of power so your command trait and artifact of power are the first uh of each I guess the only command trait and then the first artifact you have to take if you choose a legion yep petrofex elite their standard ability across the army is add one to save rolls for attacks at target at vet elite units plus one save entire army always and forever okay that's pretty good and then their command ability is called bludgeon um you know which what a hilarious name bludgeon that just the tank was empty on on naming that day um yeah so it's a command ability for one rdp we're not talking one command one rdp um in the combat phase improve the rend characteristic of a petrofex elite unit all their melee weapons by one plus one rend in melee you can throw it around you can only benefit from it once per unit but as long as you have the rdp these guys are rend two for 130 points for as many as you chuck in that unit yes very good yeah the the command trait is obviously like who cares it gives your general two extra wounds and and and often might not even end up being used because if you end up having a character general if you're just gonna like it's gonna blank and then the artifact is the first wound allocated to the bearer in each phase is negated which i don't think is the worst artifact like okay it's actually really good for low wound heroes like you know five wound wizards sure like it's a great it's a great shield for them yeah yeah so i mean now when you go back exactly what you said so now you're figuring in these guys okay so now i've got a unit that's gonna be on a three up rerollable kicking out neg two rend at two attacks for model like whoa that changed uh a bit there uh that that that math got different um so yeah that's reliably like there's no roles here like this is different than something like even like the rune priest like increasing the rend by one on a unit because there's no roles here you can do it to basically any unit and you have these points like you're just crapping them out if you build right yep yep yep so we should we should talk about some of the and obviously that's you know pretty potent we haven't gotten into various spells and things there are there are other spells you could choose to uh to to buffy buff these guys with if you wanted yeah they'll they'll usually be hitting on twos probably rerolling once it's pretty bad yeah uh do we want it do we want to segue to talk about a couple of the aligned spells here that make sense because they're they're their magic is interesting in in what it does all right so john uh what what let's talk about some of the uh the spells that you think are are valuable that line up here sure so there's there's really two that match up really well with the more tech guard and the first is the empowered in that right weapons which basically turns their six up exploding weapons into five buffs right um it does something else for the guys on horsies um that are where we're going next yeah which are drowning in the swamp somewhere that's how they came to be and then the second spell is reinforced battle shields casting value of six you got to pick a unit with shields so there's like three units I think they said that in the FAQ that catacroas doesn't count as this right which is freaking weird because he just has the same shield hilarious but bigger whatever um uh holy within 24 the caster until your next hero phase every time they're dealt a mortal wound they get a five up save after safe right in addition to their regular six up yes and keep in mind that is just the mortal wound so it's not a true like five up feel no pain where it's like wound or mortal wound right but they saw the six up feel no pain from being death 100% 100% as long as the if they're operating alone then the whole unit has to be within six of the of the deuter yeah yeah and why that's really important is one of the one of the consistent ways to actually pull peel models off the table from this army is mortal wounds and so if I'm if I have a block of 40 more tech guard and I throw this on them that's it feels bad man it makes a big difference it really does um so yeah let's talk weaknesses since this is like because as you said this is one of the two battle lines and frankly uh I think this is like the premier unit of the army right can we can we really finish talking about these without talking about the harvesters no we're gonna we'll okay that's fine we'll get into them we can get into the harvesters in a moment but I mean I'd rather I'd rather reference back to this because harvesters have other stuff that overlaps sure sure um but I want to talk about weaknesses of these guys because I like look I haven't seen a list yet that people have generated it's not like a pure writer list right like I've seen some pure writer lists but once you get out of the realm of like pure writer lists you just see like 30 10 10 or 40 10 10 or something like that in most lists right yeah there will be large blocks of these guys yeah like they are the I mean because they're one of the two battle lines they are just an absolute staple of this army um and because they're also like really good yeah right like they're just a really good strong foundational they're they're like what we like to call aggressively pointed uh yeah sure sure and that's a good point time because the one thing that I feel is that this book is really struggling from from a design perspective is it is it is almost point costed where Petrofex elite was in mind for how these things were point costed and if you don't play it you're simply playing a crappy point army it's just it's not it's not cool yeah it is interesting like I think what's fascinating about Petrofex is that it does the thing I hate most that should generally be avoided I'll call it the Hagnar problem sure where you're having a singular thing that is simultaneously increasing the offense and the defense of a unit right yeah it's just taking the whole unit and bumping it in a significant and it making a significant move by the way in in both directions in both directions yeah um when it only does one of those things or it's more utility based right like let me sketch an alternate world for you let's imagine the Petrofex elite command ability was you uh if you use the uh the command ability it was like an improved version of the unstoppable advance or whatever where instead of moving three you have a special version in Petrofex that let you move five extra okay or something like that yep um we're like yeah okay it's a little more mobility whatever whatever but that has sort of diminishing margin marginal utility on already fast units that would still be good certainly but not like as good for the O and D combination or if instead it was like uh if instead it was like you get to reroll some defensive oriented things so it was like the super defense one right right yeah at any rate uh weaknesses you've already sketched out some of them so they do not get that it's important to understand the reroll will saves are only in the uh combat phase right because you don't trigger the command ability until the start of the combat phase so shooting especially higher rend shooting uh will shred these guys to pieces right but doesn't that do it to everything uh I mean man it's it's more like I love on the farms where people are like yeah but it dies to more wounds fam okay sure things do I would argue like what what is higher end shooting not as valuable against well I have a good example okay uh bone splitters like if you're but if you're putting higher end shooting out against bone splitters they don't care yeah because one they didn't they they didn't have the saves to begin with right they still get their feel no pain that's all they ever had basically and two they have the wounds to absorb it right when they're rocking around at 200 210 wounds and just models flooding the board right they're like yeah go nuts have a good time you know night haunts another great example who's like oh high-rend shooting huh enjoy your overpaying for that you know so like there are examples like elite elite high armor forces suffer much more from from like powerful potent high-rend shooting right because they then take losses they can't afford to take it's attrition they can't withstand right right but but I'll I'll argue the the probably best version of this army is running a hundred guard anyway and then another 40 marauders so yeah it's still paying more than I'm paying for 40 skeletons or 40 chain raps sure but not so much more that it's not still able to absorb some of that sheer weight right okay nope that's fair I don't know if I'd go that high but that's an interesting it's an interesting thing well just said there but yes mortal wound would be another one getting hit at the start of the combat phase not on their turn where they can't tilt into their shields uh the old catching with their pants down maneuver where with you know an ASF type of thing that kind of stuff but I mean they're tough these guys are tough in melee they are hard to shift I mean I think it would be egregious if we didn't mention the harvester at this point because like these guys like that their defense is only half of the equation here okay Tom just for you you know what we're gonna do okay come back now stream mm-hmm there we go and we're back it'll come back in a second all right we can keep talking so uh the uh yes because the harvester is going to restore models now there was FAQ'd okay yep yep we're only going to talk about the reality not what was once possible of course and and what reality is is this if a model dies so the harvester is like this big like ten wound monstrosity like this monster that's the thing with the guy in his crotch right yeah it's a smiley handy crotch guy um and basically what it is is that uh it's a ten wound four up save monster that's going to move along with these guys it's going to probably be bubble wrapped in these skeletons and anytime a model dies within uh three inches of it and that includes enemy models you roll a dice on a four up you can pen you can pick a friendly ocr bone reverse model within six inches of this model not holy within just six inches of this model and replace a wound heal a wound or replace a wound so you regen models by killing models um and so the key is is that like and this is rolled right away so like in a world where let's say shooting didn't target the harvester which it should have targeted the harvester that's another story in a world where the shooting targeted the skeletons and didn't target the harvester what's going to happen is is that every model that you kill because damage is assigned one by one you assign a damage it kills one of the model like let's say it cuts through all the defenses right so which is like the four up the six up if it gets through all of that then you remove that model you roll a dice on a four up you put that model back and so functionally it adds a six uh four up damage reduction that also regens models win the harvester and the the surrounding bubble wrap unit gets into combat yeah yeah so yeah the the downside to it is it's 200 points it's a three up save and petrified that doesn't benefit from uh look out look out yep um in that it's actually in a really good spot I think right now after the FAQ clarified it to not be very very broken is that it's 200 if you had 20 or if you had uh like 20 guard and and three of them in 20 guard it took a million damage to remove the unit mathematically yeah you just you can't kill anything ever right yeah yeah it's basically as Sean Clark said it's a walking fec chalice right yeah and notably like so so look we're on the harvester tom we might as well just discuss it so six inch move 10 wounds four up save as you mentioned three up in petrified decent enough in melee like it's not utterly terrible it's not you know it's not it's gonna throw some attacks out that has neg to rend that you can bump to neg three if you want two damage shot yeah like it's over it's ogre ish it does some decent damage it does shooty attack too so it does have a little shooty attack at 16 inch range not the most impressive thing but hey it's got a shooty attack a shooty attack in death right come on now yeah you put it behind uh you you create a little a little circle in your wedge of your more tech guard where there's just a couple of them that are one deep and then you can scoot them behind the one deep ones to get all those attacks in and be relatively safe and the other thing I'll say is that it's it's responsive to the uh to the wounds like the way Tom you're describing it you're only triggering the lowest thing right yes keep in mind it does have this scaling profile like I this is the ability that really soured me uh because I mean like the uh this is overwritten I'll let me read the text here we go I'll roll dice each time a model of slain within 3 inches this model on a 4 plus you can pick one friendly osaerk bone reef's unit within six inches this model if you do so in the slain model how to wounds characteristic of four or less you can heal one wound allocated to that unit if the slain model for its characteristic of five or nine five to nine you can heal d3 wounds allocated to that unit or if the slain model Alina wounds characteristic of ten or more you can heal up to d6 wounds allocated to that unit if there are no wounds allocated to the unit you pick you can return a number of slain models to that unit with I just like I get it we're trying to have a way where we can get the bigger things actually regen right so like if you slay a big giant thing you actually could get a new Well, yeah a new death right or a new guard or whatever right these these bigger wound things that can otherwise very have a very few ways to come back But like oh god, that's just too much text just in it just it could have just been if it dies you can do a wound Just it could have just been if it dies you can do a wound. Yep Or at least bullet points so it's like boom boom boom got it. Yeah that wall of text You can either heal or if there's not a heal restore like I I get the legal language at the bottom but my goodness Okay, and so then his other things are all weapons specific like he can get you know either Plus one to hit so he hits on twos or he can have his little bloodins where he can do mortals on a six great fantastic And this this kind of is when I mentioned there are certain armies that are just going to have a bad day against this army It's people that can't deal with the harvester behind the walls is Gonna it's gonna be a bad game In general again if you have the ability to reach out at range or if you can somehow You know if they leave the the the harvester less protected like if they just literally have him behind But not truly bubble wrapped and you have the speed to you know get around behind or fly over the top or something like that Cool then then you know you can deal with this thing, but if it's just sitting there healing I mean the reality is it's it's going to end up End up extending the value of those more tech guard like a lot A lot Like it has to be removed and if I was building this army I would have two of them I just would It's competing with a lot of stuff. I mean one thing I'll say is this is it's full of a lot of expensive toys Right. Yeah There's nothing cheap here nothing Like you can get your you can end up at a point where your list is like 1930 or 1920 and you're like Okay I guess I'll just take those endless spells Yeah Luckily they're good but and that's the thing when I see a lot of people that are out there being like this army is OP This army is broken. This army is so so strong My comment to that is try building a list of points. Sure You soak them up so fast and you realize that's all I get to deal with the play with I mean, it's a fireslayer problem like fireslayers dealt with the same thing Only they didn't have magic and they're on bigger bases and they don't And they all look at him and they're not interesting and and but I do agree that I find both of them about equally uninteresting Okay so let's Gentlemen, let's get into the the other half of them the battle line because I think these are the next relevant ones to talk about Let's talk about some Cavalos death writers I think the sweetest looking unit in the army as far as like unit units go That's I think they're heroes look or but you know why this guy's the coolest So John you want to take us through the Cavalos death riders? Okay, sure. So they are three wounds apiece 12 inch move four up save flash three up save if you're playing Petra backs They are 180 points for five So you're getting 15 wounds for 180 points pretty nice Pretty nice and that 12 inch move is pretty big They have force you could take to 15. Yeah, you're you're only yeah, you're only you read that as 15 That's minus one RDP and a 15 move. That's what that says. Yeah, that's true They do get a discount if you take a max unit size of 15 of these there's 480 points Stop nobody's doing that. Yeah, I was like well, I was gonna do that when I could spend five Five RDP to then be rolling 75 dice five up mortal wounds Uncharged I can't do that now FAQ FAQ came out and said for their command ability over in a second You can only use it once per charge per unit as if listed you could spam it which is really frustrating I don't know that you can like like let me be clear I don't know that you can because in every other area of the game when you have a trigger You can only respond to that trigger like with a single ability once Are we discussing a thing that's been FAQ answered? Does it matter because people are still trying to do this with with the Ardboy battalion Where they're like for that too this took an FAQ to resolve in that will too all of those arguments have been made Do you think you're cracking new ground here Tom? You think you're out in blue ocean? I am I've seen this exact argument trotted out 70 times It didn't convince the people before it won't now You know what does solve it an FAQ which we have so who cares please continue All right, so let's talk about their weapons so they have the same options of later spear They have the exact same attack profiles except for these death riders get three attacks per model of these weapons instead of two like the guard Still hit on threes and fours they have horsies that hit with two attacks forced to hit threes to wound Which zero ran one damage Some of the heroes in this army actually have good ponies kind of weird but not these guys these are slightly better than average ponies Oh, they're still good ponies. I mean fours and threes are good by pony standards Yeah, there's not a five in there. I'll take it. Yeah classic death ponies were super weak I especially like the threes on the wound with these ponies because it's really easy to get plus one to hit in this army or more So they get plus one to run in charge roles they have the more tech hackatos dude in their unit so they can then get the six up save after save Keep him in the middle of your pack so it's pretty easy to get that with these guys They also have the Naderite weapons that explode on sixes, but if they charge that turn and they're using yeah if they charge that turn and they're using spears They get fives up five ups on their explosions and then the command ability is they can just do it to themselves and after they complete a charge Roll a dice for each model in this unit that and five up the enemy model suffers a mortal wound And that the key thing with that is that it's they just have to end within one inch of this unit not one inch of every model that ends in one That makes sense right so and then they get to add another three inches their pilot in that turn to that's another kill I forgot So I think they're strong I don't think they're amazing but I think they fill a hole So here is where we can segue to talk about a couple of different elements that connect in to these guys right So because there are I think two potential supporting pieces we need to discuss now obviously some of that stuff you talked about before is relevant here For example the Empowered Naderite weapons because it actually turns their mortal woundy thing Exploding hits on two fours which is good Yeah that's cool super cool So on one hand they have a battalion that you may be interested in using if you were to make a writer focused list right And that's the Cavalos Lance overall John what's your take on the battalions in here I think overall they're nice they're adequately point costed but you're already so damn point stars that it's it's hard it's really hard to justify the extra 100 to 120 But getting that extra RDP and that extra really nice artifacts because there are some really nice artifacts in this army You know I can see the value it's just it's hard to fit them you know you're giving up bodies I'm giving up 20 ks for orders for that Yeah you're already pretty squeezed on points and I think some of these are like fairly underwhelming Yeah You know I mean I think the two core ones this one and then the more tech battalions are super viable So at any rate I like the Cavalos Lance so the Cavalos Lance is either you know Arch Cavalos Zhentos Which is their sort of liege character named character Who's broken right now Or one leech Cavalos which is the generic version that dude and I agree with you earlier like that dude's a hot pick of course he Because he generates two RDP on his own and if you're doing that sort of thing we'll talk about him in a moment then you know yeah right on Yeah unfortunately the name to one is basically unusable right now Try disagree completely Disagree completely Okay well hey we'll get there Yep Not what we're talking about right now So the Lance obviously what it gives and we're clearly triggering Mr. Meff he's in the comments just just spamming He's got he's got thoughts he's got lots of thoughts Yeah this is this is Meff's army he is all about this and I love it Yep I mean this is this is what I'll say by the way I love this battalion at a thousand points Okay Like it's this is hot at a thousand So this is 120 point battalion and yes units from this battalion can charge even if they retreated earlier in the same turn If they are wholly within 12 inches of the leash from the same battalion when they When the charge rule is made In addition once per turn you can use the death right or wedge so the command ability we just talked about of the Five up mortals and extra three inch pylon Without spending a RDP to do so So okay cool I think that's good Like I said I mean it's there's no tax there if you were already taking a Cav ish list right It's all pure benefit and I've always been a huge fan of retreat and charge like huge fan I think it is like there's a reason clan rats are one of the best battle line in the game and it's because they can retreat and charge Yeah Swarming unit Yep So yeah and then the other thing that we should talk about related to ponies So while we're talking about riding that pony Then we should we should come up and talk about the pony focused Legion Okay So this stuff Stoll Stolly arc lords I don't know if I'm saying that right Okay All right so Stolly arc lords Stolly arc lords units can run and still charge later in the same turn so I mentioned like the run and charge thing earlier that there are ways to get at that Here's one of them amongst a couple and so you could have all of your death writer dudes running and charging Yeah as you mentioned they do get plus one to run from their little their little guy that's in there And you know they can't automatically run six but between the plus three move and plus one to run they do end up having a very you know decent movement especially with a base 12 plus three plus blah Okay so cool cool good ability I like run and charge for the whole army And then your command ability is rally back you can use this command ability in your movement phase if you do so pick one friendly Stolly arc lords unit that has a mount and is either and Holy within six of a more tech hecatos or is holy within 12 of a friendly Stolly arc lords hero that unit can retreat in that phase and still charge later in the same turn as long as it did not run Yep Okay this is the kind of thing that sort of drives me a little bonkers Tom why does this drive me bonkers Because it's redundant Yeah like cool I can get at it without the battalion or I can you know what I mean or whatever but like all right That's fine The battalion but the battalion but plus Patrick X is just 10 times better so Yeah Sure sure I mean you're not wrong I just wish this had like I don't know like whatever if you already had this ability to this other thing you know whatever like wouldn't that be fun At any rate that's where you should that's where you should be put the extra words in not with the golf is our harvester nonsense where you Ten pages of text to explain what should be a simple ability I when I read when I read this and read the battalions I went back and forth to those two pages like six times like thinking I was misreading one of the two of them What am I missing here They could possibly have done this right Oh oh they did they did it Oh they did yeah The Real quick I also want to say that the command trait I'm not even going to bother to read because I hate it so much again it's just like this doesn't need to happen like this it's just Nope we're not gonna we're gonna skip past it like it doesn't exist cool Okay And then the artifact is Is your native bound mount you can roll d3 additional dice when this leash uses their unstoppable charge ability Okay cool which is basically overcharge because again they clearly wrote these two books at the same time and we're just like let's just borrow some stuff here seems jobs are good I also want to I want to point out That that the leash Cavalos since you're going to be running one likely in this type of heavy Cavalos has a leash Cavalos only item Like if you're asking like why take the battalion it's to get the bonus item for the leash Cavalos like item Sure Which is a 12 inch bubble of plus one to hit for all bone reaper units in their mounts Sure So like That's really good It is To make all the hurt Italians in general I mean like yeah there are some decent magic guns in here I agree with what John said right like in your right Yeah Yeah But like that's something else that's synergistic with this does that make sense because the leash is here And he's going to be running with these guys and he's going to have an item that can bubble out of plus one to hit which is going to hit all of them in their mounts Which like that's a nice synergy Sure No Mr. Meft these are not the new slanash although they will give many people a bad game experience and they will hate them but it's not new slanash It's it's it's far from that it doesn't show You have to dominate the tournament scene in order to do that and I just don't think this is going to do it I mean I think they'll be highly competitive but they're not going to be like skew broken or anything like that so yep okay Agreed Hey let's talk about that leash Cavalos Tom you just introduced him So talk him through get give me the rules of these Cavalos Oh, I have to do something now.  He is a leash so he's going to generate two of those RDP He's a seven wound hero on a three up save two up in Petrifex He I mean he has you know he has attacks is what I'll say He has some hero attacks and they're fine After he makes a charge move he has the unstoppable charge where like he rolls and over he gets like the He doesn't over charge He doesn't over charge both sides And he gets the three inch pylon and then finally he has a command ability endless duty and You can use it in the shooting or the combat phase if you do You know picking it holy within 12 and he's gonna add in a tax characteristic to their weapons Which that's really good. Yeah Because if you're running him with horsies that's like plus one to both The horses and the the riders and so you're actually going to multiply how quickly those those attacks bonuses go up And as we mentioned they already do have an ability to trigger off extra attacks if you also had So like any more attacks is more shots at at your pretend fives fours that to double off your attacks So like you know just rolling more dice is for attacks is never a bad thing But these guys can especially capitalize on that if you throw this on some of your other horsey buddies Right and it is shooting or combat phase. Yep. Yeah So those harvester so those harvester You can add to those right Right Would we like to talk about the special character then as well since since he's there so because this has both a this is One of those heroes where there's a sort of generic version of him and then there's also a Named character unique version of him as well Yeah, so the the named guy basically has very similar profiles He has he's already locked into them the mortis praetorians keyword So like you're not gonna you like even if you take this guy in In Petrifex, he does not get the plus one to save you can take him, but he does not you can't take him Yes, right, but he would get the plus one to save from Big big bone daddy, which we'll talk about later because he is the same Legion that mortis Praetorians But so he has like You know he has a hatred of living so he personally re-rolls wounds of one against order and destruction and Against chaos he re-rolls any wounds so he's like more hated he hates chaos more than order destruction apparently He has the unstoppable charge his lance does three on a charge or does a little bit more damage. That's all fine But and he see he has the endless duty like plus one attacks. I don't care about any of that If I put this guy in the list, you know why I want putting this guy in this this list still their Still their breath Yeah What it does is use the command ability in the shooting phase or combat phase if you do you pick a friendly mortis Praetorians You know that's holy within 24 so if you do this you need to be mortis Praetorians Right because like basically it forces you down that road Okay But what it does is You know within 24 re-roll wound rolls of one for attacks made by that unit that target order destruction units period Re-roll any wound rolls for attacks made by that unit that target chaos units period What is missing there? I don't know Tom. What's missing there when it goes away a duration. Yeah until your until your next it's permanent No, it's permanent. Yeah, right now you spend one RDP and you get a permanent re-roll on wounds sure Yeah, because this this did not get FAQ'd It's there You get a permanent re-roll on wounds either re-roll ones who re-roll wounds against chaos permanent RDB they did just they did Clarify the spell that didn't show its duration to say it's you can only do it once for unit per game Right, and they did this Mortal contract or whatever the one you're talking about. Yeah, which sounds like a magic card by the way It's like I wasn't that the thing that made you anti an additional card that contract from below. There you go Yes, John, I love you forever my brother. I love that you pulled that out Fantastic All right, uh, that's so good. Yeah, it has no duration. So I guess it's just that that's how that unit works now. Yeah Like like you have to design a list around this I haven't gotten yet, but it's permanent I mean, it doesn't matter you'll build the one generic guy and just sub in whichever one nobody will know the difference between it Yeah, just um you put this you put the one weapon on the back the other weapon in his arm. Exactly. Yeah, that's it Yeah, that's it. You don't know any difference. Um, but yeah It's a permanent re-roll and people are like there aren't permanent abilities in this game. Uh, bullshit Um, there there are a lot in fact go read Zeke sometime Like Zeke has spells that permanently add stats and characteristics to things sure like um, and so this just adds re-rolls permanently to something So that's how that works apparently so what you're saying is you generate all your initial RDP and then everything Army do re-rolling Unless you're in the mirror match in which case it does nothing Yes, but but I mean I do want to point out that like They have a lot of bonus to hit a Lot like everything hits on twos Yeah, um, you know just because of all the bonuses to hit floating on wound wound is a little bit more difficult Not real hard, but this is one way that you can actually like spruke wounds. They can really push wounds hard Um, and so like I don't hate it is what I would say Yeah, you're going mortis. You have to be mortis praetorian. Yep So you do you have you almost have to take catacoros because he gives you the plus one save Mm-hmm, but then listen to what you just said So now you get the petrifyx plus one save and all the way though the wind re-rolls Yeah, and re-roll all ones and five RDP around from catacoros So round one you've got like 12 RDP and hey guys my entire army is re-rolling all wounds for the rest of the game Now you can kill Xantos out of here Right, right, right, right. Just shove him into something. It's fine. It's fine So I don't know like I don't think he's terrible is what I would say I think he's playable But you have to like build us a list towards him and towards this combo And when they nerf him he'll be worthless Yeah that without that he's But right now he's very playable folks sure who doesn't love permanent buffs that you just throw around on your army And this guy is what 20 points. Yeah to 20 right so 20 points more expensive than the the normal guy Yeah, continuing the trend of over pointing the named character. I mean, I guess not now That's why I mean if that rule stands up absolutely But otherwise his nameless bro is running on artifact in a community And to up save this guy's got three up unless you're running catacoros. Yes, you know So so I want to We already mentioned that this dude was in the mortis praetorians So I actually want to move we're gonna use this to move to bone Chad next.  I don't know. It's a funny No, it's because he has a silly name that sounds like Krakatoa So the This is obviously the named Mortar of the army as we all know and it's spoiled. I mean everybody's seen this dude They they gave this out to several different artists to paint and they all did amazing renditions of it Sam's I thought was especially cool. I really liked it Tyler did a nice job with his there was just some really really great ones They've been out there.  It's it's It's some of the most amazing like storytelling narrative modeling they've done in forever John you know, you're a great painter when you saw this what is this inspiring or fear causing? All right, so last night I put them together just him like I put the base together I'm like, all right I got a game on Thursday All I need is the base and then came blue tack top of the base with like no no arms yet and no case Sure. Sure. That's legal and so When I'm putting him together like the the anatomy the of his pose of how weight is Carried by a human and how muscles in the body just acts naturally is Not seen the way that this model is sculpted in your typical GW models or basically any gaming minis I'll go so far as to say So it's he's freaking amazing. I Really gosh, I don't know if I should share this. I really want to paint him like buffalo bill from sounds You're saying yeah, he's doing a little T and D is that what we're talking about here. All right, right. It's just it's so good All right, so Yeah, this guy has a whole just pile oh rules boy.   He is in mortis frittorians. So he has His Legion his bone clave, which I saw somebody say earlier and I like it So we're on that his bone clave is automatically assigned Winner winner chicken dinner whoever whoever said that is already assigned And he has a couple weapons and blah blah blah whatever He has a bunch of companions and the important thing to sort of understand about how this guy fights I'm not going to go into this in detail because my god even just reading it out It's not like you're gonna really get it like that to say that the detail rules but the important part is he starts with all of his buddies around him and they can all do their things and They fight and he doesn't as he takes wounds. You're effectively killing his little buddies and And they he deans to engage you right and he eventually will step down and fight you right So like he doesn't attack with the shield and mortis his big bashy shield until he suffered at least 13 wounds and None of the companions are left And Indycott his big giant weapon He basically is making one or two attacks until that same point in time, right? Okay, so They created a boss fight they created a boss fight. It's it's really cool design. He's he's super cool obviously that does mean that like when this guy is Is unwounded he's not as He's not doing as much in melee right like when he's at low wounds He'll still do work. Don't get me wrong. It's not that his attacks are terrible It's just he's not punching for 500 points worth of damage when his profile is still near the top, right? Right, right, but then again, I don't know that he's ever honestly punching for 500 points worth of damage Yes, he's a utility piece absolutely He's a he's a meat sack of wounds that stands on an objective sure So the relevant part is not only do you lose the relevant attacks as you lose companions You also lose their abilities and his companion abilities are some of them are quite good So for example when the avi arc spy master is alive and he stays alive until Until basically eight wounds have been suffered Once for a journey you can roll a die when your opponent receives a command point on a four up They lose that command point obviously fight a potent ability There's robbing command points The scroll bearer who's we lost string for just a second, but we're still going all right The scroll bearer at the start of your hero phase you can pick one enemy unit That's on the battlefield until your next hero phase subtract one from hit rolls for attacks made by that unit that target friendly Ossiarch bonerifers units obviously very no No range no right. Yeah, so very powerful, but he has that dude has one wound If you literally zot two wounds off of catacross you're getting that dude Well well until they go again and then push them though, then he heals himself for three I understand I get it. I'm just saying like if that dude's wounded Basically at all not truly at all, but almost at all. He doesn't have that ability and like this is one of those things I've talked about like People and I and somebody had said this in the chat already like people are gonna misplay this dude Like in casual play they're gonna forget they're gonna just use all these abilities They're gonna miss these abilities like if you're piloting catacross around please spend a little time with his scroll to really understand how all this works because I mean He's got a lot. He's got a lot going on and and use the app not the book because his His wounds chart is wrong and they had to make you Yeah, his wounds charts wrong in the in the on the in the book, which is funny And then finally the pot the prime necrophoros Who is the Basically the second guy to die When you use this model supreme lord of the bone reaper legions command ability it affects friendly Aussie arc bone reapers units while they are holy within 36 instead of 18 Well, what does that do Vince? What a great transition Tom and thank you for asking so He has endless duty just like the other guys we mentioned. I know it's such a funny thing to say endless duty He so which is as we mentioned before it's the plus one attack thing However, he also has supreme lord of the bone daddy legions and You know, this is his sort of special ability His special special command ability because he's a special boy You can use this command ability in your hero phase if Catacross is your general if you do so until your next hero phase add one to hit roles for attacks made by friendly Aussie arc bone reaper units while they are holy within 18 inches of this model and Add one to save roles for attacks that target friendly mortis praetorian units while they are holy within 18 inches of this model you can only use this command ability once per hero phase as Mentioned if the prime at necroforos is still alive then this extends to a 36 inch bubble Instead of an 18 inch bubble Plus one to hit and plus one to save. Yes for your mortis praetorian people which again like you know I've I've seen lists where people use this guy not in in mortis I mean, I see it is for all the plus one to stay is only for mortis praetorian Right, so you just use them in petrifices elite, and he just get off the plus one save and everybody else always Right, right. Yeah, exactly. I give you're just gonna duplicate that in petrifices like you don't need to active You don't need to blow blow the RDP, right? So Okay An odd thing with him is he is not considered a monster, so he does benefit from lookout sir. He does Yes, he does.  Yeah Yeah, right. He has a pretty wound not monster So you mean I can wait so you're saying I can put them on get terrain. Yeah, give him cover Isn't that rule restricted by it's wounds. It's Yeah, he yes, he can get lookout sir, but he can't get Yeah, and it should be mentioned by the way that this guy has The ability the more his is no more charcoal the necropolis But like a number of you like a number of units in this army the big name guys He can choose three like he has the updated healing Ability where he chooses three OCR bone ruper model or units wholly within 24 inches And he kills them three wounds or restores three models like or three wounds worth of models So this is important because that means that he is going to just natively heal three for him But yeah, because he can do it himself and two others for three every turn, right? Yeah and If you have a lot of those other healers here They can all just like pop them back up to full Because everybody can target him as one of the healers of one of the targets being sure. Yeah So one thing about this army is I was surprised that it I Was predicting it wouldn't have any recursion or it'd be kind of nigh-haunt level recursion It's on almost on par With legions and the gosh, it doesn't get the free ones from the gravesites, but the auto freeze And the fact that you can straight up heal other stuff not just bring back summable stuff is a pretty dang strong It's you know and people are like well, you don't get the command point to bring a whole unit back Yes, that's a big deal for these in the gosh, but how often did you actually do that? Yes?  Math had made a statement in the in the In here that I that is That I'm not sure about so because you met in the comments had said he has a mount which is a thing we neglected to mention I don't know that he Yeah, I don't know maybe Like it doesn't he has companions. It does not have classifying him as having a mount Well, and then if you read to the very very end of that section, right? It says for all other rules purposes companions are treated in the same manner as a mount Right, but they're not a mount in but like it doesn't have the mount header I wish that had been answered in the FAQ to like does he have a mount because there are things in here that specifically talk about mounts so Hmm. I mean it says for all the rules purposes. They're treated as a mount So I guess the answer is yes if other things as it targets a mount then it would so I guess asked an answer Fair enough Okay, and yes that healing ability you mentioned You know stuff like Archon also has an updated version of that now as well my gosh as well Yeah, not gonna run him in the gosh, but yeah sure And as I mentioned this guy is five honey points. So he's a he's a big boy a lot of people were like poo-pooing him like I saw in the chat and not in our chat but in in What the other? Um Was so funny sure like I've seen chats where He is really good and he is utterly terrible are both opinions. I have seen Figurously argued yeah, which actually tells me he's probably right where he should be I think maybe Because he is expensive like he is crazy expensive and that those points feel right like it we does a lot But he's mostly a utility type of thing who can also get in there and mix and hold an objective and like he's he's not bad by any stretch But like you pay a significant cost for him, which I mean at 500. I'm a buyer I just am think think about how many points worth of heroes you need to buy to get five part in P You're spending you're spending 500 and he's just giving you better stuff now He's not three bodies you can spread around And he it's it's again. I think he's just about perfectly pointed because it's a high Point commitment army like at committing 500 points to one model is really tough here so I'm testing him tomorrow in my game and You know, I'm you know, it's gonna be interesting, but I think he does something that nothing else does that Yeah Like as a hero, he's a 20 wound to what save hero you're gonna put on a new objective and no one's gonna take it away from them Yeah, one interesting thing is him having the endless was it the endless discipline one Where the plus one attacks is yeah when he throws it on himself when he's got five weapon profiles All these dudes and all of those get plus one attack Yep, that's pretty cool He's not gonna tear through everything, but you you have to be careful what you come at him with because he could just Screw it up and then heal it back Yeah, yeah, and like and again He can be subjected to the healing that those other units can hand out and so like heaven forbid You have like two bone shapers near him. He's gonna heal nine a turn Yeah, like if he's sitting on objective, he's never moving Mm-hmm, you know, and if it's when if it's a hero holding objective. Good luck. I Don't know about never moving, but yeah, sure Like there's plenty of things in this game that could peel him in a turn It's not about peeling him. It's peeling him and all of the guard around him Sure, you're saying if he's if it's him and then he's bubble wrapped completely Yeah, I guess well, but he's gonna be bubble wrapped But that's the point like if you're in a hero objective like it's not just removing him It's removing him and whatever is guarding him I'm not gonna say that scenario is not realistic. Sure. It could happen. Yes He's also like a bigger base than some things. He's not he's not on the full pie plate, but he's a big enough base Sure, and it's also like some of the hero objectives have three spots or something You know and like you can't always just dedicate you don't as mentioned you don't have a ton of forces So it's not like you can It's not like you can just say well I'm gonna take him and this 40 guard this 40 pack of guard every time and dedicate them completely to one thing now I agree with you. Sometimes you will be able to and in that case Yeah, boy, that's gonna be a rough go There are some objectives. He's just going to win. Sure. He is a he is a power piece I don't disagree but like again, I think he's pointed Fairly accurately like at least my sort of read on it is that he feels like he's in the right spot That's just feeling obviously. I haven't played this dude at all. So well, like Yeah, if you keep him on an objective that's In your side and they've got to churn through stuff You don't you don't leave up spots to summon in around him She's got across the whole field for the minus one to hit and 36 inches on his two buffs If you if he's not touched He can be a long ways away from a lot of stuff. That's still making an impact. So We'll see.  Yeah So Can we talk about Morris for Torian's real quick just to just to show how underwhelming his actual faction his his bone clave is I don't even remember what it does. That's how important it was. I understand I get it Alright, I'll burn through more dispertory into a quick because like the special characters have more dispertory ends the two We've mentioned and like it's worth discussing Just so we understand that like it's Let's call it underwhelming. Alright, so abilities subtract one from the bravery character bravery characteristic of enemy units While they are within 12 inches of any friendly more dispertory and units Great Super great counter strike You can use this command ability At the end of the enemy charge phase. I read that part and I was like, oh, okay I'm interested, you know lots of things that happen at the end of the enemy charge phase are good locusts Iron Suns counter charge. I was like, where are we going with this one? If you do so pick one friendly blah all that standard text about more tech more Hecatosis and crap Until the end of that turn you can reroll hit rolls for attacks made by that unit That target an enemy unit that made a charge move in the same turn Like but okay So they can set spears for charge or whatever it's kind of the idea there like I get it I get what you're doing there because this is like the whole you know defensive phalanx fighting blah blah blah Like we're similar to it's cool It would have had my attention Can we talk about this? It would have had my attention if it was reroll hits and wins Yeah Because you're probably hitting on to his anyway and your best after in the army can just throw out rerolls to hit like it's candy. So Reroll hit rolls of one I should say sure You're already hitting on twos. Yeah, the distance there between just reroll ones and reroll everything is often pretty small in this army. Yeah, right Is it worthless? No, is it like worth full for whatever the opposite of that is Okay You might use it sure your command trait is once for battle at the start of your hero phase You get D3 additional relentless discipline points of D3 additional RDP Hmm. Uh-huh They aren't command points man. The value of that is a is not as high So nope and your artifact is pick one of the bearer's melee weapons and change the rank characteristic of that weapon and egg three I mean again with the command trade as always if you did end up taking catacoros or the named The name death writer What's it's Right, it's the case for the generic capitalist. Yeah, sure I'm just saying like, you know, keep in mind with all those things. Yes, they're underwhelming But often you may not even have them, right? So who cares right and this one especially because if you took Catechro, if you're going mortis, you're doing it for some reason to get into catacoros so you can do this type of thing, right? So, right? Yeah, and and then he has to be your general to use his big baller Supreme Lord of the Bone daddies So which you would you would have him do that anyways, but yes Oh Okey-dokey Well gentlemen, I think there's one unit that's up there that we've got to talk about next we got to got to got to We got to talk about that thing that's sitting right behind your right shoulder John on the top of the pile. Oh Yes, it's time to talk about dropping them bombs This this is the reason why I chose to play the army sure sure All I wanted to do is shoot That's all I've wanted I was really hoping that they'd give us an archer battle line unit, but that probably was too much to ask for But I think that thing's good enough for now So tell us about the more tech crawler Good boy. All right. So it is 200 points like just about everything in this book, right? Yeah, if you just like if somebody asked you how much something was in this book and you just said 200 points randomly It's a good good. Yeah So it's a giant catapult with 12 wounds four inch move and a four up save three upper pet effects and What it does is it shoots you? It's got three attacks. It's got three different kinds of ranged attacks. It's got a normal one It's got something called cursed steel and something called cauldron apartment They're all six inch to 36 inch range Okay, so that minimum six inch is a deal, but 36 inch max is bananas its standard attack is Three attacks two is to hit three is to wound and damage is a star profile It starts out at straight five and it goes down for about every three wounds it takes So what you do is you throw your plus one attacks on it, so that's for attacks or crawler You throw your new news getting on to is You can even have a plus one to hit on there to negate their lookouts, sir, and then You can reroll ones if you throw the soul mason buff on it for attacks I run gonna run two so that's eight attacks twos to hit rerolling ones threes to wound and Five damage, so that's pretty bad news There's no red obviously so no red it does not have red which is a pretty important thing but what it does is it it snipes your stupid hearth guard berserker hero and Suddenly they're not until It's an example of something they can do sure like I wound heroes are pretty scared of this thing Because you can just throw enough shots at it that like if they're on they will fail Something if they say if they go squish it should be noted by the way that the one thing that this does not do is Ignore line of sight sure. Yeah So yeah, you say that but if that hero is next to a you know a firewall Then you can't target him Yeah, sure sure I will say that there is one small modeling for advantage here and you always You always build it with the arm up because that's about nine inches tall right there In my eyeball from the top of that catapult to your guy suddenly there's not a whole lot that can hide even with even with Blocking terrain sure That's a fair point All right, I'll quickly go over its other two attacks There these you can only use once per game And they clarified that you can't give the model plus one attacks and use these twice in that one turn So it's once per game is once per game The first one cauldron of torment you do not make attack sequences for either of these special attacks That's very important to know they both have the 36 inch range Instead you pick one enemy Unit that is in range of the attack roll one dice for each model in the unit add the modifier on the list Starts off at no modifier goes down to negative two it does If the results it's equal to or greater than the unmodified bravery characteristic of the target unit one model that unit is slain so You target a unit of 40 You know plague monks at bravery for You just remove 20 of them. There's a four up 50 50 Unmodified bravery. I think they're bravery for right, but I mean many things in this game an army of bravery for so sure Yeah, I'll go into a bravery for right Yeah, so you're it's great against God's against BC chaos against You know scaven stuff like that It's terrible against some other stuff. So fire slayers sure I mean notably anybody who's like running around at higher than bravery six Like the things that like what I'll say is this the things that you wanted that to be useful against It's not actually useful. Okay So her scar berserkers, which else Undead like other other more tech guard sure Like the things that have like really hard to kill hordes Phoenix guard All those things are immune to that catapult the mass kill shot.  You know what also kills goblins Just dumping all four shots into the goblins, right? Sure. Sure, right like That's also going to do the same work because it's just a bunch of this is on like on a very low save So like many of right five damages are getting through. Yeah, yeah, right So like I don't know like I'm mixed on the special shot on on that one on the horde killer shot Because it just doesn't do it doesn't do what I want it to do Yeah, sure, I agree. I can see that I mean, it's it's a very interesting shot and like even if the thing is bravery six Depending on what exactly it is What I mean by that is like the key to this is it's not dealing wounds, right? It's removing models It's one model from that unit is slain And that's anytime you get into like slain stuff So like I Jordan just made a really good point in the chat and I want to hone in on stuff like this So he had said like big blocks of storm fiends are somewhat scared or like trolls, right that kind of stuff. Yeah No Some of the iron jaws stuff is a good example Jordan like for example a big block of pigs I don't care because I'm based my bravery characteristic is seven on pigs, right? That's not it That's not a modified number. That's just it is what it is right But like storm fiends especially other bravery six it may be worth tossing this shot Maybe because you you know, you might kill one or two of them Just outright slay them but like stuff that has Big after saves and is on like a break or or just happens to be on bravery five or six is obviously You know pretty susceptible to this but the reality is the base shot if you're up at like four shots You know look at it like this. This is this is like a pretty simple math, right? If you're firing at a unit That's sort of that's on like a five up You're gonna probably get 10 damage through a bunch figure in your hits and wounds right depending on your sort of re-roll situations and stuff like that. Yep, if you're firing at a unit that's like imposing additional negatives to hit in shooting or that has like Additional saves to shooting and they're really already really hard like if you're shooting that base shot. It's something that's like a two up you know against shooting so like the The storm cast drake off writers that go to two upright against shooting attacks. That's kind of the fulminators Thank you. Yeah, which are probably immune to on bravery. They're probably have a seven bravery I don't cast default. Sure. I believe the those guys are actually bravery eight. I think but either way Um Like those dudes are fairly resistant to like all of the sort of attacks that this thing is gonna end up making but right on Hit me with that cursed steel as well my friend the cursed steel is a is the more exciting of the special shots again once per game again Don't make any attack rolls Just pick one model that you can see within range and you roll 2d6 and you add or subtract the modifier If it is equal to or greater than the wounds characteristic of the target. It is slain So it starts at negative three zero 2d6 your average seven negative three means you're gonna on average kill a four wound model By the time it's down to have it taken ten wounds the crawler is at plus three Meaning you are can on average take down a ten wound model, right? So it's good for a couple things one you're gonna want to take care of a high armor smaller wound hero if they string their units out in our dumb dumb you just pick the middle one and Blow that one up and then they delete in the battle shock phase The rest the other half of that unit So a couple things if it does get I mean if you if it gets wounded throughout the game And then you let it stay wounded and then you can shoot it off later That's a thing that feels completely unreliable to me, but possible I suppose I could throw the scythe through my own back line and wound them.  Up to like decent, but yeah, it's fine. I mean goblins beware Fungoid cave shamans or whatever, you know, like that's a little goblin shamans of the world be afraid Yeah, you're gonna. Yeah, I mean you're gonna kill those with just regular shot anyway Sure, I understand I think to me the biggest thing that this does is it throws out the constant threat of turning along your units But if you can do it and they're not in combat to consolidate yep Then you can threaten to remove half of them that you saw absolutely It just like any of those other things like that I should also mention that like this is an army with a fun interesting weakness to those similar pick out a particular model attacks right like stuff in the pants or the the jaws of the of the The big dragon in Stormcast or you know Marathi's gaze or the splinter from the Vermenlord or you know all those pick a unit and sorry pick a particular model and kill that model Obviously, you're always going to be killing the heck of toast, right? Which can shut off some of the units potential ability to use the RDP Right depending on the presence or absence of other heroes So it is interesting the counterplay with those pick a particular thing and kill them because oftentimes the heck of toast is just Some dude in the unit, right? So right which let me just say like that that's a great counterplay like that catapult becomes almost required in my opinion and If you're wanting to do Like the mere match Sure, because you can just pop their hack of toes off and right of a unit You want to engage of the key unit that you're on engage, right? Sure, or two if you had two catapults or whatever. Yep Yep, we should note that they did answer I don't I don't know if we commented on this or not, but we they did answer in the FAQ that These are always once per game Yeah, you can't increase their shots even though there's a profile that says one correct Yeah, this is these are hard locked to once a game You may do each of these special things regardless of the adding the plus one attacks We previously mentioned they you can add it to the regular dread catapult as we said They didn't answer the the line of sight question though, which is which is do you still need a line of sight to use those? especially ammunition I Would assume so since they're still in missile weapon attacks and they would refer back to because it just says do not use the attack Sequence right and the attack sequence isn't actually like the line of sight check isn't actually in the attack sequence It's just in the how you use missile weapons, isn't it? Yeah, but by the way, neither is the number of attacks in the attack sequence sure But they did answer that part is what I'm saying right they did so they did Yeah But there was a question as to as to how that worked and how that interacted because some people were positing that like because It's a special ability with special rules and most other special rules that have that like special bodies that have that special rule Say a target within 18 inches with it that you can see sure and so there was some debates around that fair enough There's also a I'll answer that question hold on a question just came in doc adored and said seeing those more tech crawlers What would be the difference in running a more tech crawler oriented army compared to a hellstorm rocket battery oriented gray water fastest army? My answer would be one of those armies is good and one of those armies is not as the cancer Just hellstorms are just highly unreliable like This thing actually can do work. So here we go here. Here's that here's the final question I want to ask on this thing before we leave it behind Tom you and I had originally discussed remember when we saw this unit spoiled, right? And and and I don't know if we knew how many points it was but we said is this thing going to be worth it, right? Yeah, is it worth it? Did they get? Finally like the shooting and damage and worth of an artillery piece correct here Yep John I Think so I think it is a great threat to the things that you want to kill. Yeah Well, I think that it is a usable piece. All right. I don't think it's required I think it is a usable piece. Yeah, agreed. That's exactly how I define it I think they made a competitively viable shooting unit. Yeah Yeah, okay Cool beans. All right, so Can we just take a moment and pour one out for our homies the morgasts? Who I would argue are still no good in this army, but I'm curious if either of you have a differing opinion So the harbingers and the archai who are just the never picked in this army because there's just too many like the points Don't have it like almost regardless of how good they are on their scroll. I'm not saying they're not fun They're super cool. They're you know one of the few things that flies which is valuable, but Yeah, they got a good reach there the thing is they're 210 points and They're worse than the 200 point options. It's just right Yeah, I mean what I'll say is this in the battalion that comes in Feast of Bones They're feelable as you can regen them like you can restore models in that world So they could be possibly usable I mean my big challenge with them is I think that If like we would be having a different conversation if they were if they were battling let me say that yes, absolutely Yeah, I mean I I agree as Berserk pointed out in the comments They do have the heck of toast keyword on themselves, which is true So they can sort of activate all those things as necessary, but I just I don't see them fitting like all the lists I tried to play with I never really had room for these guys. They just weren't They like it's cool. They can fly and that's actually a very valuable piece in this army, but Geez they just never made it into any lists. I sketched out when I was playing around with us There was just like I ran out of space There were other things I wanted more we'll say it. I'll say it that way. Yeah, to be honest You're playing a list that's gonna be running probably to make these make it impact You're gonna probably run two packs of two packs of two. That's four hundred and twenty points You're doing that you're quickly do running men battle on across the board And you're then running men on the better units in the army to take these instead for the points and that just The only thing is Harbingers get that 3d6 charge in an army that can't re-roll charts. Sure that I Mean, but is that more to take them? I don't know. Well, I'll say is this they Is it these guys or 80 marauders? Sure, I I'd probably say the 80 marauders Personal taste so next up I wanted to hit up the Immortus guard and the necropolis stalkers. So these are our big elite dudes the original guys spoiled back when we first saw this army was the necropolis stalkers, right? So the four Headed guys. They have the alternate version that has more of like the samurai-esque style helmets and one face Not four-headed. I guess four faced. Oh, they kind of warheads kind of they're like Half heads. I don't know for face So I mean these dudes are both interesting right because so just let's let's let's knock out some basics here So the Immortus guard Five-inch move for wounds three up save. Do you want to say the next part? To