Yes. I'm pretty much focused on the south side of the town. The audience is still on that, right? No, I am. The entire room set up gets dictated by this one cable. Mm-hmm. We still have three people under it. Three people. It's wireless enabled, but I guess they couldn't get that to work. You know what other City Halls have? They definitely want our new one to have, which is really underneath the speaker. A small screen shows what's projected behind you, so that the council can see what's behind it that everybody likes to see. Does that make sense? Yeah. So that's what all of the equipment we have at the presenting station. In the polling booth, you have your foot, you can hold your elbow, your hand, you can do it with a touch screen, or you can do it, like, for the line people, they have the same... Yep. So you can tap them, but they use the library, they use all the little things, and so they can... We have those too now, but not everybody uses them, just people that request it, right? Well, see, we used to have a phone thing. Yes. And so this is like the newest thing in the country, I think. Oh. There's a company called something about democracy or something. We're using them for the first time tomorrow. They're testing them out during the primary, in case there's a problem. They're using them all over the market tomorrow. But every voter isn't guided to use these, right? Maybe just people that request it, or whatever disability reason they might have. Yeah, and walk in and say, you know, I need assistance to vote. There's just stuff I'm up to tomorrow morning, and I've never seen them before. Figure it out. They're not difficult. Any words for the device? No, I'm only practicing a couple of times. So I was going to see if John is still in our office, so I can ask about that. I said, Al, the tech guy is going to roam around in a huge location to make sure everybody's all set up with those new devices. Do you have a ballot that you then feed through the machine? No.  Yeah, but it's really thick. A printer takes us really thick. It's stuck. Sort of. We're set up and, yeah. I was just talking about the new machines. Well, I have one person who worked with the guys this afternoon. I was supposed to work with them. I am a machine general. I still am, I think. I've been working with them. I've been working with them for some time. It's four years since I've stayed with them. I've been chairing the secretary of the state for some time. Yeah. I've been working with them for some time. Yeah. I'm very... That's not good. I don't think you're anyone. I haven't seen you at a council meeting in a while. No. But I've been following this open spaces. Here I am. Looking forward to it. Are you supposed to do the other paper or do you provide some coverage on these outlets? Pretty much the other paper. I do some volunteer work on this site. There's enough going on and I know it's not really good for me to cover. Yeah. You're going to go to the Grand Opening on Wednesday? That's the plan. We'll open it. That means you're going to be through to the work. So, don't be excited. Hey Tom, how are you? Very, very, very well. I think we got a plan. Are you going to be there? Sorry. I'm going to try and get it for real. So, we're going to be through to the other side. I don't know what I mean. I don't know. I'm not sure. Yeah, I say so. I think it's the same. Yeah, that's right. That's it. I think it's better. I don't think so. Yeah, she doesn't write. Hi. She doesn't write. Hi, she doesn't write. She doesn't write. Yeah, we do a lot of these things in real action. A lot of these things lead up to a lot of this. Yeah. Tomorrow you're here. So if it was even my email, yeah. Oh, right, right, right. Okay. Oh, yeah. Yes, so fun. Yeah. Okay. Are we ready, Charlie? I'm sorry. All right, I'd like to call this special meeting. Yeah, special session to order. It's the South Burlington City Council special meeting. It's Monday, August 13th, 2018. We'll begin with the Pledge of Allegiance. Do you want to lead us? I would like to. I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible with liberty and justice for all. I ask for the network security key just to get into that email. Just to get into the SB. The wireless. The Wi-Fi. Oh, capital S, capital B. Small word, wireless. For every guest, it's okay. And then wireless, small letters. Yes. We're not revealing secrets. First rule of not hacking. Okay. Do not give out the password. So item two on the agenda is instructions on exiting the building in case of an emergency. If we have an emergency tonight and have to leave the building, please exit by the one of these two doors here that will lead you outside and into the parking lot to the south. If these doors are blocked, please go out the main lobby and out the front doors and around to the south. Tom Hubbard and I will be responsible for ensuring that everybody is out of the building. Thank you. So the third item is agenda review. Are there any additions, deletions or changes in order of agenda items? Seeing none, we'll move on to number four. Comments and questions from the public not related to the agenda. Is there anyone here to speak on a different issue? Seeing none, we'll move on to the main agenda. And this is our council working session on the public facilities and city center. So booth spaces. And we have until approximately nine o'clock to chew on this a little bit more. So Alana. I'm up here by myself, but I won't be for long. Okay. So last time we've had see a lot of additional work on the project. And I'm here today with the architect for the project, Steve Roy. He has a few of his team members here. And he has, I don't, is it amplified? Okay. So I'm for the record, Alana Blanchard, project director. And I'm here to talk about the city building to be located at 180 market street. And this is the project that is in the design phase and part of the TIF district. And we met last to report on the project in July. And since then we've continued with the cost estimating and the design work very much in concert. So one with the other as more information became known and as we worked to contain costs. And let me see if I can get this up. And I'm here also, and I'm going to ask them to join me with Steve Roy, who's the architect on the project. And John Stetson, who is the pre-construction manager for Engelberg Construction. So respectively the architect and the contractor who's working with us and may construct the project. Welcome. So as we discussed earlier, the cost, the preliminary cost estimate is a tool that we all use in order to make sure that the building is in line with the funds available. And also to get a realistic picture of what it would cost based on what's needed. So they work, the cost estimate works in concert with the design. And it's very much an iterative process. And there's two teams working on both sides. So one team is working on the design and doing calculations on the building and looking at the notes from the public and meeting with different folks over the past few weeks. We met with caterers. We met with the clerk's office. We met with both Holly, the director of recreation, as well as Jennifer Cokman. We met with the IT staff for the city, Al Reid, and various other parties. So all of these different activities are happening on the design side. And then on the estimating side there are various folks who are working to collect data and information using both what they have in house but then calling out and finding out current pricing on various aspects. So multiple different disciplines, not just one person, but multiple people who are experts in those fields in terms of the cost of construction and then checking to get additional information. And John can talk more to that. So and then the whole team gets together and talks about can we do this? Can we do that? What are some big cost savers? And so it's a big back and forth. It takes a lot of time to go through that process. And we're also at the very early stage, so there's not a lot known. So a lot of times you're just discovering, oh, well I was thinking this and I was thinking this and sort of coming together and doing some more investigation on both sides to come up with an answer or direction or at least identify the areas that we don't know. So we're now on I think the third or fourth estimate. I'm not sure. Usually I think because I think everyone's being very understanding of the interest in November vote. And so there have been many estimates at this stage, which normally we might wait until a later stage to continue working at this detail. So since the last meeting, we learned new information. There were new discoveries. And rather than cost going down, the overall estimate went up. And the main drivers for this were cost associated with the site. So a much better understanding of what the needs of the school are and how all of the cities, the schools, Schneider-Reverman's needs and the grading all work together. We also included heating sidewalks in the estimate this time for the first time. And that's in the front of the building and the rear of the building. We have additional information about the interiors and the types of acoustical requirements as well as some of the finishes. And then in terms of the foundation, we had better calculations from the structural engineers and a better sense of how heavy the building would be and better calculations on the soil, the soils. And so that increased the size of the foundations, means that much larger concrete pads underneath the building, underneath the columns holding up the whole structure. So during this time, we've also incorporated a lot of value management savings features. And so, and those checks indicate savings which have already been taken. So if they're easy to do, we've done them. And where there's not much, it's more of a no-brainer. Well, we'll go from this material to that material. There's not much of a difference in performance. Or rather than speccing one particular thing, leaving it open to multiple vendors, things like that. And then there are other types of savings that can be pursued. And so those are those that really impact the wow factor or the cosiness of the building. And savings which may reduce the initial cost but in the long run may reduce life cycle costs or other sustainability concerns of the city. And then savings which reduce the function or program. So over the past week, we were able to take about 800,000. I think in my last email to you, I indicated I thought we would be able to reduce it by 500,000. And we were able to find 800,000. And that's more of the low impact types of changes. So that includes reduction along the rear wall of five feet, along the frontmost wall of two feet, a reduction in natural material walls. So entire walls that were natural materials have been taken out. We had a stair from the third floor to the roof. It's kind of a nice to have item, but we don't really have it on any of our other buildings. It's not used as frequently as other parts of the building. And so it came out. I say we, I did nothing. The architects and Engelworth looked at the interior and exterior materials. And I think that changed like three or four times. Because we reduced the rear wall, we also took the elevated platform out of the auditorium because it did squeeze that space. And although it really only affected the storage closet, the ramp up to the stage took away from the overall size of the stage. So because of that, we removed the platform. And I'm telling you that now, because if that's really important, we should know that and we can work with that. Simplified the counters and other built areas in non-critical areas change this solid surface. So a lot of the countertops, which were, we take them, most of the non-high traffic areas are no longer solid surface and their laminates. Baseboards are generally not wood, except for in the most high-profile rooms. And solid surface windowsills are now hardwood. That's consistent with what we have today. And we moved daylighting in the downstairs corner and revised the stair design. And I will tell you that the stair design keeps changing. It's not a static design item. I think it's something that the stair is a big feature and it can be an organizing feature on the floor. And so it keeps moving as the library designers work with the interior space and try to make it better. But we have also looked at elements of the stair that were expensive and how to revise those so that they're less expensive. So, for example, the rail design. So there are additional changes that we don't have numbers for yet that they're still being looked at either to get a final detail for what they would be from the architects or from Engelberth is working to get a cost estimate for those items. And so, especially on the exteriors, there's been a lot of discussion and continued exploration, ways to make the building lighter and also still looking at the exterior, some of the finer materials on the exterior and how those can be changed to retain impact but not be as expensive. So I'm going to let Steve walk you through the building and talk about some of the features. I have them. So this would be helpful if I... You can do it any way you want. You can use Tom's microphone and take it right out of the stand. So just walking through kind of the current iteration, we are still continuing to look at things and see how we can improve them in every case or save money. This is the particular view from Market Street so we have a... at the moment a current... a covered bike area here. A couple of flag poles for state and national flags. We have looked at this. This is one of the main circulation stairs to get up all three floors of the building. We have kept that. We have made some adjustments to how it gets built in an effort to save some money. We have this granite banding at the bottom and along the front entrance in an effort to provide some gravity tasks to the facade in distinction. We are using less expensive metal panels that we have selected for the top edge and a product... kind of a composite product for the remainder of the building in the front of the library as well as City Hall. This area here, a little bit hard to see in this view but this is a glass railing that allows the terrace for the library to see some of the action that's happening on the street. This would be the main entrance location. There will be a library book drop-off as well as a text drop box adjacent to the main entrance. Our attempt here is really to provide a lot of glass that visual connection into City Clerk and the infodesk. And the remaining materials around it are nicer and a little bit more refined with the granite. We can look at options for changing those materials out. The living room portion, which we've talked a lot about in the past, would be this location here. This then becomes the children's library from this point to the east. Second floor of the library, we have a lot of elements meant to shade. We have a little bit of an orientation towards the west, so all of the vertical elements are meant to help shade from afternoon glare and sun. We have some horizontal shading elements, which are to help reduce glare from daytime sun from the south. We also have this 10-foot overhang of the solar panels on the south end of the building, which will help to shade the top floor windows. So those are some of the defining features of the outside from this view.  There are different patterns that you can get. Some are like a wood type of finish to them. Others are a more painted type of... But it's like a piece? Yeah. Can you go through the up first starting materials? So what we have currently in the design for this edge around the left, as well as this lighter color that kind of compasses the top, is a zinc. So it's a natural metal, it's not a painted finish, so we expect it to last longer and have a little bit of a natural patina to it, a little bit of character. These areas here are... Help me with the name. Trespa. Trespa. That is a proprietary product. There are a few variances from other companies, but it's more or less a high density material, solid, like 3 1⁄8 of an inch thick, can come in different patterns and textures on the top. What we're looking at is roughly an 8-inch-wide board that has a small gap to allow air movement around it. So they would be vertically oriented, 8-inch-wide pieces of that material. Do you want questions as we go? Sure. So the granite, how does the cost of granite compare to the cost of concrete? Concrete in the form of a concrete block or solid concrete. If you were to take... And I asked this because there was a whole section in the paper last Friday, in the Wall Street Journal last Friday about concrete homes and buildings. It was fascinating what nice things can be done with concrete. So when you say granite, I thought, well, maybe that's a lot more expensive than concrete. The concrete would be less expensive. The finishing gets expensive with those. I saw that same article. I thought it was great. Yeah. I'm John Stetson with Engelberg, by the way. And the concrete we could do for... I would say that we would do that for less than what the granite is because with the granite, that's a veneer and then you still have the backup wall behind it. So we would have to look at something. Is that something that would be worth looking at given that you thought the article was pretty good too? Yeah, I thought it was good. Yeah. What's the support wall behind the granite? It's a metal stud backup wall. But no concrete. I'm glad you read it, too. Otherwise people would be looking at me and saying, well, that's a wacky idea. Yeah, it's probably worth taking a look at if nice concrete work could be done and save us a significant amount of money and not screw up the aesthetics. Every one of you will support concrete. But that's in there a while. This is all new age work with concrete. It's much smoother, too. Isn't it? You can get all sorts of different finishes and colors. Let's take a look and see if there's anything that might work. I think that you used the granite partially because it's a Vermont product. There's a few reasons that we have granite. One is if you have any exposed concrete here, that's where things will sprawl. If we do the sidewalk heating, maybe that's less of an issue. Granite is the type of product that will not degrade over time. Just look at your curbs, right? Yes. Exactly. It's worth taking a look at, I suppose. Concrete does just go to bury. It's amazing how long granite lasts. Oh, sure. It's forever. But that article was doing amazing new things with concrete so we can save money and continue to. We'll look and then there's durability, too. We may be able to get both. Just an idea. They compare on that bury. It's pretty interesting. I went out there because I was doing research on this building. High school has a veneer of stone panels, but I don't know what material they are. That's an example of how that would probably kind of look. I'll just tell you, they have a bowling alley and it's granite. And they were trying to get that started and work. But the borders are in concrete and you can just see the difference. I mean, it was built in the 1920s or 30s or something. This is all new today's stuff. I don't know anything about it. I think that to the engineers. Is the trust work for the solar panels? Is that standard equipment or is there anything custom about that that makes it more expensive? What we have above the roof, we have essentially a flat roof assembly. No different than any other flat roof assembly. But we have a steel structure that is supporting at the proper angle. From that, that would be part of the construction manager's scope. Above that, we would be able to bid out to different solar vendors to let them know that they can use that surface to put their solar panel system onto it. They have to attach that apparatus to the roof. Has this been done elsewhere? Have you seen this elsewhere with an overhanging that far of a solar trust network? Yeah, not locally, but there are some very high profile examples. To him was that one in Seattle last week, actually. The bullet center. So that's an opportunity to look at an example and see what it's like. I'm not able to change. So this is a view from Bird's Eye from the southeast. What this helps to do is describe, you know, currently the areas that our roof terrace able to have roof terraces. This one being the library roof terrace. This one is at the third level and serves city hall functions and staff functions. Everything we're planning to provide could be done in a way that is green roof ready and not necessarily needing to be done at opening day. This starts to show you that the exact panel layout will be determined, but the panel angle is set in a way to gain a little bit more efficiency. We'll space the panels out so that water actually drops down into the roof. So we'll have some water management and snow management. I'm sorry. When you mentioned the challenge of the soil and the need to have significantly sturdier, I guess, foundation. Does that suggest that the opportunity at a later date to go up one story is not possible? Well, everything... I guess anything is possible with enough money, but I mean within the... Everything that is planned for has an impact on the weight of the building. So if we're okay with sharing this value, I believe the cost, and you can correct me, in order to build above the terrace, we have a 10,400 square foot future buildable area on the terraces, but the cost of the steel structure and the concrete foundation to support that weight is actually $150,000 of extra material. So there is a pretty significant cost to plan for that. If we were to consider going up an additional floor elsewhere, it would have a similar impact to the system. This is a current site plan. The team has met with the school and has approval for this design. It has been sent to the Allard Square ownership team for their review, and we have had a few meetings with them also to talk about some of the issues that occur between the two sites. As you can see, we are... There's a new street along this property line, with a 60-foot right of way. We are right on the 30-foot from center line of road with the building, and it's right up to the property lines, basically on all sides, with the exception of the Allard Square. We have that distance here to allow for driveway access into their garage. It currently travels through here. There's a little dashed line, so yes. One of the challenges with the site is the need to build the building while continuously maintaining access to that drive. Engelberth has been working to determine how they would build that corner, so there's more information available with how that would be phased in a way that residents could be using... Basically, which portions does Engelberth build first to accommodate their access while still being able to build the building? So that's been further developed. I just ask a question, because when I read that I was just surprised that the driveway extended so far that it needs to be moved so dramatically. And that property did not belong to them from my understanding, or did it? How does this work? Yeah, the developer of this parcel owns all of that. So their plan was to have a similar building adjacent to it with an underground parking connection or other method of connecting, so that's... This is an important point, and right now they still own this land. We just have a purchase and sale agreement. So at the time that they initially developed the first lot, they had control of this lot, and they've relinquished it back to South Burlington Realty. So Snyder-Reverman had control of both of the lots. At the time that they began the Cathedral Square development, they encumbered the second lot, and then they relinquished it back to South Burlington Realty. So it wasn't encumbered with the driveway, and then they relinquished control back to South Burlington Realty. So they do not control the second lot. It made it easier to do the transaction, frankly, to get the option. My question stands, the purchase and sale agreement that we have is still dependent on them being satisfied with how they can access this. Is that correct? So if they're not satisfied with their access to their underground garage, they could derail or not sell us the parcel of land that we're putting this library on. Is that correct? No. We have to work with them to make sure they have access, to the option with South Burlington Realty. Or South Burlington City Center LLC. That's an important point though. But this has to work for them. I have a related question. So I have three questions tonight, and I've already answered half of one. Now I want to just preface this. When I ask a question, I'm not endorsing the notion. So I want to ask the three-part question, and it fits into what we're looking at right here. If this project, I'm not insane, I want this. I'm just an experience of people. If it were scaled back to just be a library, no city hall, would we still need the land from the school district? And would we need underground parking? And if we needed underground parking for just a library, what would the cost estimate then be? Rough ballpark? I'm trying to get an idea of how much efficiencies there are being achieved by putting the city hall in the same space as the library. Does that make sense, what I just described? Could we fit the parking for just a library there or would it mandate the underground parking that they originally planned on? Can I answer that later on? Although I will warn you, I can't answer all of that question because we'd have to do a considerable redesign to understand those costs. But we're going to circle back around to that. Yes, tonight, yeah. So what we have on the site with the building here, there's new school access. So the existing school parking lot ends right around here. This is an addition of parking spaces that are being taken from this area and relocated. So the bus traffic has been planned. Student drop-off areas have been planned with this in mind. This connection has been, well it's been a separation point between the school and anything that happens next to that easement line. So the school has approved this design. There is one connection in this area and the main entrance. But otherwise, this parking here as well as this parking is for this parcel itself. First floor plan, not a lot of big changes since the last time we talked, but to walk, except for the stairs, yes. So looking at some of the major areas and the highest cost finishes, those have not changed. We anticipate the lobby and info desk, the living room of the library and the stairway area as well as the auditorium, those being probably the most expensive areas within the space, within the first floor. Those are the high interest areas for finish. Yeah, anything outlined in red is just defining the higher areas of cost. These are just draft views, but looking at the info desk from inside the lobby, so it's a pretty large glass wall behind you in this particular version. You can start to see, although there's some glare, but the library stair and living room would be through that space, trying to create a glassy enough area that it doesn't feel too small. Trying to put some local touches to the finishes, that being, we have a photo on I think one of the next slides that can explain it. The view of Mount Mansfield from Wheeler Park, so trying to get South Burlington related inspiration into the finishes as we move forward. Red Rocks Park as well, looking at perhaps some local stone or wood materials throughout those spaces. This is the stair as it has been. We are continuing to work on it, and the reasons we're working on it is one, to create a little bit better functional space within, but trying to get a similar approach to having a visual connection to the second floor, having a skylight that brings light down all the way to the first floor. What we're able to do by moving the stair over in our latest version is to provide the circulation desk and the staff adjacencies that are really preferred. It also helps to define the living room space away from the circulation zone. Functionally, we think we can improve it while keeping the wow factor. This would be a draft rendering of the periodicals, but it's the living room. This would be looking out onto Market Street. It would be well shaded, so you don't have a lot of glare, but a lot of natural light at same time. It has the potential for a fireplace, as well as some art along the wall. Just a place to have some different types of furniture and casually sit, wait for other folks to join you, or have a drink. Coffee? A coffee? A little bar we could offset the cost. So here's some inspiration for that living room space. A fireplace, maybe it has some seating in a kind of built into it. Some artwork. This is kind of an example of that glassy wall that's facing Market Street, so a lot of light. A nice place to sit and read the newspaper or any other article. The auditorium, this is a little bit more of a grander scale, but there's going to be some acoustical ceiling treatments that happen. There's acoustical wall treatments in this area as well. The seating we've looked at is being the retractable kind, so there's some opportunity for different types of events to occur. This area is where the tiered seating is, and then there's an area of flat seating. As Alana was mentioning earlier, we have the opportunity to reduce some square footage that may mean making it harder to have this ramp. So one of the cost savings methods that was discussed was allowing this to be a flat floor all the way across instead of having a raised platform. Can you show that in the picture? I'm having trouble. This is not a rendering. This is just a sample. So where's the ramp that we'd be taking? Well, it would be this one right here. So this goes from this floor level up to a raised platform. Alternatively, we take the raised platform out and we don't need that ramp anymore. But we still have a stage or no stage? It would not be a stage at that point. The reason this was my husband's suggestion, and he said that he saw pictures of VPR where they actually add a stage sometimes. They do make a separation. So he said why not just include it in the original design? Yep. It's just one of the cost choices that need to be made. Question related to the seating. Is the retractable seating more expensive or less expensive than non retractable seating? The cost of the seating for the application we have, I think, is about $70,000. The advantage is you can you can build a flat floor, which is less expensive to build, and you have the flexibility to use that for other purposes. If you you could buy chairs for less money than that and you could put them on a flat floor and have any of the same visibility issues that you might have with the flat floor and seating. If you were to build a slope floor. Unless you have a stage. Yes. Like at LA lawn. But go ahead. Yes. There's plenty of different ways we could organize it. Each one has their own cost, of course. So we could build a tiered floor with fixed seats that would be slightly less expensive for the seating. The floor itself would add cost. Use would be limited. And the use would be limited. Correct. It is nice. So a few of the other areas within the first floor that would have a slightly higher budget. The senior center up in the right hand corner. So there's an activity space, its own living room, as well as storage and a catering kitchen. Within the library, we anticipate some areas that have special finishes. There's a storytime space, the tweens, and this one's maybe not specific to this, but the next slides will help to illustrate. You know, these items are listed as enchantment. What makes this space special? Whether it's a pretty literal tree or whether it's a bit more of a... What's the word? Abstract tree. Thank you. So this takes that approach. It has acoustical clouds that can also help in that manner. So those are the types of additional cost features that are really nice to have, but do add to the budget. The tree on the left could be added later, right? Yes. Yes. Just getting it in would be tough. It would probably come to pieces. No, you just roll it. So the key is, you know, we're creating spaces for children to learn and experience. These are photos from the library itself. And some other examples of exploring and providing new opportunities with more space. Here's a blown-up view of senior activity room. So this is... We have some different test fits to show the types of activities that could happen. This one just happens to be the round table version. From an entrance, they could enter into the senior activity room and have any form or use that they're talking about. This living room has a fireplace currently with some bookshelves. And it also has an activity sink and a little bit of storage directly off of it. And some of the inspiration is on the next page. This would be kind of a draft rendering of the living room space. So the idea as it gets developed will be, you know, different types of seating arrangements, the ability to have a TV and perhaps a fireplace and some cabinetry with books and things. This is a little bit of that inspiration of what's happening in that space and how it might feel once it's built. And perhaps it has barn doors to close off areas if they're, you know, not wanting access or not wanting people to have a little separation. This is looking out, again, a draft rendering of that type of space, this little kitchenette here. This is the catering kitchen which would have its own access point. So if meals are being served, you could gather your meal and sit down. That would be the type of atmosphere once it's done. The second floor, we envision just the continuation of that monumental stair up onto the second floor of the library. That way it's, you know, bringing that excitement up to the second floor and it being a central part of the library. Quiet reading room down in this area, special seating areas that may, they could be furniture elements, they could be a few built-in elements, but some special places within the library that create special zones. And the raised floor area, we're kind of taking advantage of the height that we would like in the auditorium to create a raised teen platform and reading area. So on the following page we have a couple examples of kind of interesting furniture types that within an open or large space can help to define cozy spaces. The environments, these are library photos, I believe. Digital, yeah, digital lab, so a place to have classrooms and teach digital opportunities or to have perhaps a green wall and allow for media making. And just spaces to share and have new activities and to explore. And a part of this, this is a very similar concept to that raised area over the auditorium. So it could take a similar form as this, but the idea that there's some interesting transitions in different spaces that occur within what is kind of a large footprint. One of the concepts that we've been working with throughout this process has been South Brunnington is well known for its paths and here's one. So bringing that inspiration into the building, whether it's, you know, a path that happens within carpet or tile, perhaps it's something on the ceiling that defines that direction, but trying to bring in elements that relate to South Brunnington. On the third floor we have the city management offices planning and zoning, but the shared meeting rooms for public use would have the kind of medium level of cost finish. A couple of examples, just of the types of spaces that could happen, but smaller meeting rooms, pretty simple table chairs, some connection for media along the wall and some simple lighting. There's a larger boardroom table. That's the library. Okay, take it. Sure. I think I'll go to the next slide. So we're deeply in the process of value management and very aware that if this project is to be voted on in November, a lot of decisions need to be made between now and then. And so we're really bringing this to you for your consideration. Our current estimate is that $23.5 million, and that cost includes some costs that we would not include in the bond. So it includes the solar array and the new street. The total bond for the TIF portion would be $4.64 million, and the total bond for the city portion would be $17.83 million. The tax rate impact based on an $18 million bond is one tenth of a cent, and that's above $860,000, which is the amount that we were scheduled to be contributing, that the city was scheduled to be contributing to the reserve fund and was reduced last year. When we think about that tenth of a cent, that's about $26,000 annually, in addition to the $860,000. And if you'd like, I can pull up the spreadsheet. I do have it here. And I think when we have copies for you to look at that calculation, that would you do want to see now? Yeah. Okay. Please. No, my opera glasses. All right. So here are assumptions. So, so the it's based on in this $21.8 million is based on what's left after the solar array. Actually, I think I have one more slide that I wanted to show you. So this is the assumption for the city share bond. Okay. So the solar array and the roadway would not be funded with the bond. It also excludes the tip financing amount and then subtracts the planchette fund from the city share. And to be clear, when we talk about what the contribution to the reserve fund would be in order to make the bond payments, we're not counting any capital campaign contribution, contributions that might come to the from to the city from the capital campaign with the exclusion of the planchette fund, which we are counting or public facilities impact fee. The planchette fund is about 400,000 at this point. Is there less? It's more than that. I'm I'm counting 350,000 impact these 180,000 that over the life of the 30 years. This is so I'm excluding 100 and I was excluding 180. I'm actually excluding less for that. I'm excluding about 100,000 now for the development of a new roadway beside the city hall building. And that roadway would be funded using impact fees because it is a city center street. So using not and that's a separate impact fee from the public facilities, which is a planned impact fee that is being researched right now. Does this preliminary estimate include the purchase and sale agreement price for the parcel of land from SB Realty? Yes. But there was a you had a 23 and a half million total, right? There. Yes, but that included the solar array in the road, right? Right. Which we don't have to find and and. Right. And this and and the tip bond. Said this in an earlier slide. This new 21 eight includes all of the work to be done to the Rick Marcott Central School property, including their parking lot and what we would owe the school with this arrangement. Let me go back to the prior because it's easier to talk for me to talk about it. Okay, so 23.5 is all in. That's the school, the purchase of the land, building the new street, the solar array, all of our fees, all the design fees, utility hookups, everything all in. But then there are certain costs like the solar array, which have a much shorter pay down period. So and also generate revenues. So we're separating out that because we can we can structure that cost differently from the rest of the project. But a lot of answer. What is the number that would go to the voters? The number that would go to the voters is something above 17.83 million dollars for the city share and something above 4.64 million dollars for the tip. What is the aggregated number, though, aggregated that goes to the voter? What is the number that the voters will see? 22.5 22.5 22.5. Okay, good. I did it by hand in my head. But Jay, you put question just a question. So you have 22 20 whatever the 23.5. You're saying that includes the land and the new city street, I'm assuming the site work is just the work site work around that building itself? Or does that include the change in the school? Everything school. So would you have a number that just says what the building itself take out the land and take out the site work and take out the new street? Because somebody looks at this and says the building is going to cost 23 million dollars. That's way too high for a building. But if you took out the street and the land, I mean, that's all part of it. I can, I can get you that number. The it's hard to build a building without parking and without the site and utilities and electric and stormwater and all of these things are part of the building. But the new stream isn't it is we have to put the new street in as a building as a development requirement. We would have to put in the new street. Jay's question ties back to the earlier one I have the questions I'm hearing from I try to talk to as many people as possible is if we didn't have a city hall in this property as well, it was just the library, would we not need the school property and then would we not need to also do their parking lot and all those other things? I want to know those numbers so I can explain it to them and say with a straight face, this is this creates economic efficiencies by putting them all in the same property. So I'm interested in Jay's question as well as how much it costs to do all of the school parcel property and what it might cost less if we didn't do the school property and we just did a library. So so we would have to do a redesign library or a city hall as well. No city. Just a lot. So but including the senior center. A library senior center but not a city hall. Is that what you're asking? No, I'm not endorsing it. No, I understand. So so these are the costs that would be involved. You would have to accommodate the roadway. So the roadway would have to stay on the roadway that goes to Allard Square would which starts below grade would need to go underneath the building. So you so you would have to make the building taller in order on the second floor in order to accommodate a garbage truck. Just to and so there would be additional foundation costs to accommodate that additional height. You could decide not to put any parking associated with the building. So if there was no parking associated with the building, then you wouldn't have to deal with the structural weight of the the structure to support a parking garage. If you included the parking garage, then that becomes an additional floor. It does not. It doesn't now, but there would be no parking associated with this building. If there was no school property. So if it was just a library, it would make the most sense that we'd have to put parking underneath, right? Curious what that cost would be to understand the efficiencies we're achieving by packing more into this little postage stamp. Early on we did have other cost estimates for a parking garage. Those numbers elude me, but it was significant enough that we decided it wasn't a good approach for this building. But they did it for Howard Square. That would be under the building. Yes. Howard Square is mostly a wooden structure with a couple steel spines and so this wouldn't be like this would be mostly steel. I guess what was happening was it was knocking us into with the current building design, it was knocking us into a different type of foundation system to be able to spread that out. So it was using a map foundation instead of spread footings. We were talking about parking underneath and he was asking about it. He had just a library and senior center. Could you put the parking underneath? And if you did that, how would it change it? What would the cost be? He's always asking because then you wouldn't need to do work as big a deal with a school. But what was your question? How was that? My question was next door, Howard Square does have parking underground, but it's a different style structure building. It's different because it's just residential. It's wood from the third floor up, right? Or second floor up. So with a little bit of steel as a spine. Yeah, I mean, I think to the weight of the hour square building is a lot less probably, right? Correct. Yeah, this is not much steel and concrete, you know, because you have like these big rooms that are open and you need to support that somehow, which means as a comparison, the structural engineer says this is essentially a six story building. Because it's one it's library loading. It's a steel and concrete building, which is just much heavier than than the neighboring building. It's still in concrete last much longer. 50 years. Yes. Yes. And it is yes. And it is a code requirement based on assembly uses on multiple floors. So I'm going to keep playing with the what if questions. And this came from a resident. What if the library space that is currently in you mall that we continue to rent it for a senior center? And we just have a library. But we have room for parking. On this new parcel. Yeah, that's my question. Repeat that if you do just the library and we rent the you mall space for the senior center. Are you shrinking into just library and keep city center here? Yeah, all here. We have a three year agreement with with the current owners of the you mall. We do not expect that to be extended. So another site may be available. But I don't think that one will be available after after three years. What's that? Your contract was November. November. Yeah. Doesn't mean another site someplace wouldn't be available. But I don't think that one will be the other part of her question I still have. And again, I'm not endorsing this path. I'm trying to be able to reason with those that are questioning the cost. If there was just a library with councilor Emery just stated, would parking fit on this current lot acquired in our purchase and sale agreement with SP reality? Around the prior building less of an issue? We didn't have the auditorium either. No, no, with it would be the library and the auditorium. I always saw the auditorium as part of the library. So if you could there would still be meeting rooms where seniors could go, of course, but just not the seniors. So so there's the potential if you had most if you actually will probably not. I don't think so. Because I we did look at the number of spaces and I believe it was under 30 or under 25 stories, even with three stories. No, the number of spaces that fits on the site. When I'm saying if you go because the library currently is two stories, right? To make it three stories and just move everything up to the second and third floor. This is very helpful. Yeah, so so on this site, we have to fit the driveway for Allard Square, as well as the all of the utilities. So and trash collection. And for us not just not just for Allard Square. And access to the school, right? Access to the school can go from the new street. We would still need to build the new street, which is on the property purchasing, correct? Half of it would be. We would need that second stairway. We would we would have, well, I guess it depends, you would still need to required egress points from any floor of the library. And then as a way of connecting, you would still probably have the monumental stair as a as a communicating stair. That's Yeah, that's one of the required. Yep. It would depend a little bit on what you're trying to connect and how open it is. It's probably I would say it's probably most likely to have three stairs still. But if these are great questions, but if the City Hall doesn't go there, the whole school, I'm going to use mood, right? So this is very helpful. What I think I just heard, and that was a great question, Tim, this current combo unit would be too heavy for an underground garage. So that's not an option. Well, you just pay more. You pay more to do it. If you want to do it, but we can't. What that more would be would be helpful for me just in my discussions. But are we talking $10 million? We're talking $2 million? No, more in the more in the one to two. But you're not you're yield of spaces because it's an awkward size and you have you still have the access for Allard Square ended up in a high cost per space price. So one of the advantages of residential types of buildings is the depth matches parking very well. So the example at Allard Square is a very efficient parking zone because the building is 60 to 65 feet deep. Having the library that we have now is wider to accommodate the space to use. But you, you know, you may not want a long, narrow building as a library either. So that adds to the inefficiency of underground garage. But you're also, I mean, if if we went with just a library and cost was not necessarily the driver, but just the conversation or discussion is if we just built a library with a, I guess, the auditorium on that spot. Is it your belief that we wouldn't need to have the property swap from the school for parking and the utilities? Could it all fit on that property? Because if it can't, the arguments move. I think it can always fit on the property. I'm not sure what floor everything would end up being on, but it can always fit on the property with enough parking spaces. You would still have offsite parking spaces. It would be and we don't own them unless we just sort of use the school. Too bad. Too bad. It's it's public property, which I'm sure they would appreciate. Yeah, I think that would be a largely go back to step one redesign of the of the building. And yeah, just to kind of help you go through the steps because we were talking about kind of rough costs and what we could afford without asking the taxpayers to pay more than what we have in reserve and what TIF could cover. And so we had first envisioned Library City Hall, rec, gymnasium and office space. Too expensive. So we went down to a library city hall, right? And then the library got bigger with the senior center attached. And so I think that I guess I just I don't feel the appetite among voters and MLU or no MLU. I don't feel the appetite among voters to go to go above. And and I've been asking around to and and I think that we have to think about this differently as opposed to what is our input into place. And I would suggest I think that the library is truly what has come to the fore as to what is the first priority among the people I've talked to. And I think that if we have to really think about what's going to be a draw, and I'm going to, you know, think very pragmatically here. And again, this is all for discussion's sake. Don't shoot arrows. I'm not wedded to this. But Allard Square is going to have a social space. I've been in other cathedral squares. They have social spaces. I go over to the library in the mall regularly and there are seniors making use of the walking, especially in these hot months. And when that question came to me, well, how about we use the space in the U Mall for a senior center. That was, I think, worthy of us this morning. Now to say there shouldn't be a senior center at all. I'm not there. But it was worthy enough with regard to making this palatable. If this goes down, I just, I don't even want to think this stuff too. So I think that we have to be realistic. And we have to think about what the voters have communicated to each other. The library has been on the top of that list. And I think that if we can get it, even with a redesign, which has made it possible, one percent of what we're looking at here. If we can, just looking at what we've paid so far for the architectural fees. If we can get it to fit on our plot of land with some parking and the MOU is no longer needed. And it's within a number that the voters can rally behind. I see no reason why not to take that step forward. And I understand everybody loves to have this beautiful building and everything they want in it. But we have to realize that we're not spending, you know, money that just comes freely. And I, I'm very sensitive to, and I've talked to people in lots of neighborhoods, not only in my neighborhood. I've been out to big homes talking to people. So this is something we have to really be mindful of. Can I ask you a question? On an infrastructure basis, not including program space, not including where people actually do things. If you went just roll this back to a library with senior center or without senior center. With the auditorium. With the auditorium. You're still going to need much, if not more, expense on infrastructure in order to do what you need to do. Or not, in other words, what I'm asking is, is the savings that significant, or do you still have X amount of dollars in infrastructure that we're only going to save $4 million by chopping the project? That's the cost. That's, you know, that's you get what I'm asking. So how much of the infrastructure would you save? Or is the saving not in direct proportion to what we're what we're taking out? So you would save, uh, paving. So probably about a third of the site. You don't I know John hates doing things without you. You're right. There's a, there's a lot of costs that you're going to pay one way or the other. I just, in my mind, I don't know where that line gets drawn, where we say it's right at the property line. So does that mean that we're not doing any of the school work? And we're not doing the street, the road.  So you still connect to the school. You still do all the utilities. You would still relocate the driveway from Alex Square. You still do the work along the main along Market Street. So phrase slightly differently. If you took the whole building at X square feet and say, we're going to chop out X square feet, the price isn't going to decrease proportionately to the X square fee. I'm asking. So what I'm asking is how much is it actually going to go down? And is this worth having this discussion? Or is the savings not so significant that in essence, we're spending a fortune to build something less when to build what we initially started out looking at is not that much more. I have no idea. I think it's also worth mentioning that the library, the way it's set up, takes up a large portion of the first floor and the entire second floor. Humphrey's Polyarchitects, our partner in this, has done about 90 libraries. Not a single one of them is three stories tall. There's a reason. And that's because of staffing capabilities for libraries. Thinking about just putting the library on unless you go three floors will not dramatically change the footprint of the building. So you're not going to, you're going to save X, but the X isn't as big as some people might imagine it would be. Is that where you're, I, I, yes, I think so, maybe much larger. We can't, we can't answer that question, but it sounds like what I'd like to do is, I was asking you, what I shouldn't have been talking, to explain exactly what, you know, why do the voters have to see a 22 million dollar, you know, can you just explain in, in the clear as possible terms how that would look. But I'm, and you also made it pretty clear that we can't use or look to the university wall space once it changes hands for anything. So take that out of the picture and we still have our needs. But I'm not up for spending a disproportionate amount of money to build a library that if you then look that on a square foot basis goes through the roof because we still need all this other stuff to do it. You get what I'm, what I'm saying? Is that the auditorium we could still meet there? We could have concerts there, would still be a people's draw? I mean it would still serve a huge function. Sure, but it's still, we still have the same potential problem that the, that the non-program infrastructure cost is still going to be significant enough that we're not building enough to really get our money's worth. Well, I just say, well, we first heard 16 million as a rough estimate and then it went up to 19 million when the senior center was added on and now we're up to 225. So in the rough, the roughest estimates, right, we were in the teens and so I realized that that was not a refined number, but yet it was a ballpark number and we really moved up to 6.5 million dollars and I think that it's worth asking the question. Oh, I think it's worth asking the questions, but we've got to have the right answers before we can make any of these drastic, any drastic decisions. I'm just going to ask another question before you maybe say what I, explain what I, what I ask. The cost of building materials I know has gone up substantially in the last year. I know because I've had to absorb some of that myself. A year ago, how much less would this project have cost? Ballpark, I mean, 10 percent, 15 percent? No, it would be five to seven percent of the last year. About a million bucks worth. That's, that's not 16 or 17 to 22, but there's a million of it right there just in, and then the foundation, the foundation is significant, right? And I know, I know, I understand that from having worked on a, on a hotel project where all of a sudden, oh my God, you mean that site works going to cost another million dollars because the soil is so crappy? And the answer was yes. That's exactly what's going to happen. And so I understand where that came from as well. It's, as you get further down the line, it's all of a sudden, right? Well, we're going to have to, we're going to have to spend money on this. It is what it is. So Kevin, do you want to fill in and then Tom has a question? I'm going to ask Alana to give the actual numbers, but it's important to differentiate between what we're going to ask the voters by way of authority to incur debt, which is the total amount, project total amount, and how you pay for the debt. Very different numbers, okay? The part that the voters should be most concerned about is how much are the taxpayers going to have to pay as a component of the overall debt? I think what I heard Alana say a little while ago is that it's $886,000 a year of which you're already had programmed in the original plan for city center to reserve $860,000. When we build the budget for FY 20, that number would have been $860,000 because that's what the prior councils have all agreed to up until last year when budget cuts needed to be achieved and you went to 750. If you maintain the $860,000 track for the next 18 years and you had $23,000 to that, 26,000 dollars to that and make it $886,000, you get the whole package. Just for clarity sake. So going back, only for clarity sake, not to argue one way or another. The component that the taxpayers are concerned about most is a 17.83 million. As we all know, it's not the only demand on our city dollars and various department heads just tell us that, you know, we're squeezing, I'm very plain simple terms. We're squeezing it to the point where we might as well throw out the entire CRP. We might as well throw out the entire HRIP that what was happening before was working better.  We have holes in our roads. We have residents complaining to us. I just, I, this is not the only demand coming forward for city dollars. Would I love to have everything be beautiful? Yes. But I can't pay for it. And I am not alone in, you know, in this city. And a lot of people are telling me they can't pay for it. So we have to really talk priorities. And I understand how, you know, the numbers work for this. But it's not the only thing coming forward. And part of the problem there is, is that the debt saturation level with the budget to budget for another 20 years, right, is going to preclude other things that are going to be needed. And that's what I'm worried about is that thing that we need in three years to bond for over 3 million that's an unanticipated need or an anticipated need, right, which is then going to force the tax rate up on top of then the health care rates forcing the tax rate up on top of a new contract forcing the tax, you know what I mean? So we have to be sensitive to those types of demands on the budget as well as these types of projects. And so when you, and here's the problem is when you look at the city streets, right, and people that drive on the live here complain about that's just one example. Those are things that are physical that they can see today. What they can't see is, well, I know there's a library at the U mall or I've been there, I've used it, right? I know there's a city hall. I think there's probably a dearth of recreation space, you know, and senior center space. But but look at these streets, right, you know, or, or other types of things that are physical tangibles that they can know about all the time when they're, you know, out and about. Penny for path is a tangible that's going to receive fruition, you know, in a couple years. So because of the size of the number, I'm worried that it's going to end up precluding other things. And then what'll happen is that we'll make the commitment and then, you know, three years down the road, we'll see health care go up another 15%, right? And then the CIP will come in and they're going to need some major things like a fire truck or whatever it is, right? And we're going to be seeing, okay, now the tax rate's going to be, you know, 3.45% or 3.6, right? People like, I thought you said it wasn't going to cost extra for the library, city hall, you know, senior center building. So those are all great points. I just, you know, while we're discussing this, we've got to think about these types of things because of the number, you know. We also had our Department of Public Works ahead of the department as well as our retired fire chief who said with our increased development further away from the services, we're going to hit a tipping point where we really have to increase not only equipment, but also personnel. So I just, I think we really have to be very cautious. And pie in the sky is a lot of fun. I love it too. But, you know, the chickens come home to roost. Okay, Tom, you've been very patient. This is, I have all these same concerns. I think this is the right discussion to be having. I followed everything you said, Kevin, and that's exactly why I think we need to discuss this. Because if we do this, that locks up, that 868,000, which means a rec center pool, whatever else might come up in the future is going to be a lot harder to do. So that's why I would bring it back to what Dave reiterated in that question, which would help me fully get behind this and be able to sell it to the community. I would love to know what a library with an underground garage and an auditorium on this one parcel would be. Because if that's a 17 or 18 million dollar proposition, it makes sense to say for five million dollars more, I'll give you a whole city council or not a city council, a city hall there too. So I would just love to have that understanding of what just a library would cost so that I can communicate to the residents. Does that make sense? Yeah. OK. But if I could add on to that, we do have to take into consideration that no library goes three stories and the extra staffing costs, et cetera. I don't know who's, it's not up to the architects and the engineers to figure out how much more it's going to cost for us to operate it. And so somebody's going to have to figure out those costs as well and factor them in. But your concern is what I said, what you just repeated. We can't build something, gee, because the voters will vote for this, but it's costing us so much that it was a dumb thing to do. We can't do that either. We may not be able to do anything. And then the last piece on this, and don't throw arrows, this is just for discussion purposes. In these conversations I've had with people on this notion of a separate city hall building, there is less tiff time pressure on us for a city hall because it's only 10% tiff financeable. So that 10% is much smaller than the 33%. So I just, I think that's important for us to factor it in, that if I don't feel as much tiff time burden on us to get a city hall in this 17-year window we're now looking at. Our final question is, because, Steven, with something you said, did I understand you to say that if we were to just use just the parcel that exists now and want to get the kind of programming space and all the things you've been talking with Jennifer and the groups about, that you couldn't do it in two floors on that spot? Is that what you were saying? Could we not do it in two floors and have an auditorium? I'm just want to be sure I understand. Yeah, I'm just able to have time to actually try it. The senior center, I forget the numbers off hand, but the city council, we'd be taking those pieces out. Right. So perhaps we could balance a little bit more of the first floor up into the second floor, but there's not a lot of gain there. And without a lot of gain, you're not gaining enough to have parking on site. At that point, you would lose a lot of land area to put the ramp from Allard Square on. So I don't know that it's. Yeah, there's a swap. A whole lot of issues, I think. OK. I think you also said that the other architectural firm, Chris Pauly, have not in the recent years designed a three story library. But that for whatever reason, whether it's oversight over the people using it or it just is out of vogue, they don't. That isn't designed. Not to say it can't be done. Certainly could be. There's three story libraries all over the world, but they may not have this kind of more modern flair. So if you'd like there, I do have other slides that I can present or you can continue discussion. So well, you have some more of the sustainability and potential to rule for. Let's go. Can I ask one question about the structure stuff again about having libraries required by code, steel and concrete? The type of construction is based on the size of the building. And the as soon as you have assembly spaces on upper floors, assembly spaces, because they're free spans without is that the problem is that you? Yeah, it's about building safety with a lot of people on upper floors. Unless you put that space on the ground. If you can fit all the assembly spaces on the ground, that would have an impact. Yeah. But yeah, the choreo. Many grounds. So but to the foreign based codes, like, do they, you know, is restrict us in heights? Like, did you can't? There's no there's no minimum higher, maximum? Foreign based code would require a minimum of two floors, minimum two floors. Yeah, OK. But you could. Would it be possible to build a five, let's say a four or five story building like Allard Square with the same sort of cost structure, but put the auditorium type open spaces on the first four. Would that be feasible? I think we'd have to balance the types of spaces and I'm not sure it would. OK, I mean, I'm just trying to think here about how to achieve the same because here's the thing is that city center was meant to be foreign based code transect what, you know, the center, right? Is it five? OK, so it means ultra density, high buildings, lots of stuff inside of it, right? So if we had a big building and perhaps not on that parcel, but there was another parcel that the library could occupy the first floor and the second floor, right? Then that would be a solution. I just don't know whose building it is or who would build it or who would own it per se. I mean, one option is that Snyder Braverman has a plan for a building and we take two floors, let's say, and we lease it for X number of years or whatever it might be, right? If it would work. One of the challenges is that the library program is quite large and so it's larger than a residential building first story. And the children's area, and so I think that was one of the challenges that this project has dealt with is trying to fit all of the program right in a way that made sense for that. The ground floor has the library for the Children's Center, which is quite large. And then the second story has the adult section, which is about twice as large as the children's section. And then there's also back of the house staffing and processing, which has to be in proximity for oversight so that those staff will double up with the functions inside the library. But the second story for the adult section is not, I mean, it looks open, but you can have pillars that support the third story. So unlike the children's section on the ground floor where you really want it to be one huge room. It all has pillars. Purnitures and stuff. They all have pillars too. Yeah, I was feeling a little discouraged about hearing that the senior center would be removed from this building. Back through all of the planning that I've done research on recreation, city hall, library were all included. And as recently as the memo, I believe it was the Planning Commission when it was proposed to the Planning Commission. A senior center was included in the building that was in the Planning Commission proposal. That was back in April, April 24th. And it included senior center. And what I liked so much about what was being proposed here was that the senior center of recreation space was going to be comparable to the niceness, if you want to call it, of the library space. And the other part of it that I liked a lot was that it would allow the library and recreation departments have been doing a lot of collaboration and talking about interactive programming and so on. The senior center rec department can charge a little bit. Library by law cannot charge for any kind of their programming. The friends of the library raised money for speakers to come in and concerts and things like that. We could charge a little bit. So there could be a program that goes on in the library where it would not be charged and then some kind of nominal fee for a part of it that would be able to have, like a speaker or something else that we could charge for. It would allow for a lot of more intersectionality and creativity and generation of potential programming, I think, to have included in this building the senior center space. And Tom, I think that having the city hall in there where people can go and they can do so many different kinds of things in one building. And I really feel that relegating the senior center space to the mall is inferior. It is just inferior. And the recreation department has needed programming space for as long as the library has needed a new library. The needs of the city are all in there together. They're all in there together. The senior center space that is proposed in this building is really beautiful. And it has a canering kitchen. It could allow for cooking classes. It could be rented out to realize a little bit of revenue for things like parties, engagement parties, celebrations of different kinds. It would have a sound system. I've been speaking with people, too. What do they want? They want ballroom dancing for one thing in a senior center. And this would allow for a nice facility to allow for ballroom dancing. The combination of the canering kitchen, the room that holds like 80 people for a lunch, and then a little living room space up to the side. It's really ingenious and it's beautiful. And it complements the library and the auditorium space so nicely. And really it makes it very, very sad, beyond sad, to think that that space would be taken out of this really well-designed comprehensive building and sort of broken up. We have an opportunity to create a beautiful building in our city center. And I understand that. I think everyone agrees with you. It is a very difficult conversation to look at the reality of finances and the wishes and hopes and what we've seen laid out. What I think might be productive for us to get to a bottom line number is to continue to go through maybe some potentials to remove some money and see what that looks like in hopes that we can, you know, cut this down. Yes. Hi, Stacey Pape from the Library Board of Trustees. I had a question about what if the recreation department took a piece of this building? Would we be able to do something with the TIF in that way because... Recreation is 30% TIF-financeable. So if this was more rec space, less city hall, then that would expand the amount that the TIF could cover. My understanding, correct me if I'm wrong. What's the total TIF percentage you have on this proposal? So the total TIF percentage, we're actually at the, it's the total TIF, I don't have it as a percentage. I know what's eligible, but the eligibility that because we applied in 2013 and 2015, it's the amount of the cost of the building, including the site, the land acquisition and everything is higher than what we estimated at the time of the application. So in terms of the senior center, we can still use the 30%. It's about 90% for the library and it's about 50% for city hall. 50% of the 10%. So 5% for city hall, probably 28% for the library and 30% for the recreation. Would we have to go back to the... Is that for a moment, huh? Pepsi? Yeah, Pepsi with a new number. We could go back and ask them retroactively to make that change. Well, I just wanted... But I haven't included that. I would like to share my perception that this building is an investment. I see a lot of synergy between city hall and the library and that having both would be much more of a catalyst for further development of city center. And as I understand it, commercial development is much more beneficial from the tax perspective than for residential development all over the city because we share... Anyway, I think we really need to think about this as an investment and what it will generate to help us meet those needs so that I've been hearing people talk about the future needs of the city. And truly, we're talking about $26,000 a year added to my tax bill. It sounds... I mean, I don't understand why we're not talking about bargain to our residents. Not the only amount that's gonna be added to your tax bill because there's healthcare, there's fire, there's... I know, but I'm talking about the additional tax revenue to the development of city center that will be available to help pay for those things. I mean, it sounds like people are talking as if city center is gonna be nothing but the library, the city hall and the two buildings and there's another development on the city center that's residential that is all gonna stand still and there's gonna be no new generation of taxes for the city to help meet its needs. And I really seriously don't. I mean, what do we have a district for if nothing is gonna happen in city center? I mean, I think we need to think. Not gonna help our needs for the next 17 years, though. So it will help us build city center, public infrastructure, but it won't come back to pay for fire. It won't come back to say the same thing. Well, there are all kinds of impact fees that we do have. No, we do have impact fees, but they're using them in this page or in this piece. Well, the other thing, I just want to say one more thing and that is I'm a little concerned about the configuration of the senior center because one, I mean, 40% of the households in South Burlington are headed by a senior. And I think the programming for that center is based on the lifestyles of seniors in the past 40, 50 years, however long our seniors have been active. They're with the baby boomer generation which is retiring and everything part of it. I think the lifestyles and the desires of senior center and seniors are changing and that I just think maybe we oughta do a little bit more needs assessment and research in terms of what the total population of seniors in this city would like in terms of the senior center. I mean, it just seems to be a replication of what we've had in the past and then maybe that's what everybody was. But I have some, you know. They want pickleball. They do want pickleball. I know, I'm like, what is that? Everybody has a different lifestyle thing. Well, that pickleball is not gonna happen in that brand, it needs to represent. So we have a question. Yeah. What would you like to pay? What do you want to pay? What do you want to pay? Well, we were told 17 million was the target. I got a couple of questions. Can I? Really quick, I just want to say we've all run for office. I've run for office and I do my best to listen to the community on everything and I fully support and have said this based on what I've heard from people, a library and recreation space. The root of my questions here is just on that city hall piece and my concern is about rec space. As I am concerned to Sandy's point that if we go down this path which Councilor Emory articulated so clearly it just locks up our entire reserve fund currently allocated plus another $26,000 a year which limits and makes future decisions much harder which I think might push off a rec space, a rec pool or other priorities we might have 30, I want a pool, 30 years over the next 30 years off into the further distance. That's the root of my questioning. I fully support the senior center and I want more rec space. I'm just on the fence on the new city hall. Does that make sense? Sure, David? Well, a couple of things. Sandy, your points are very well taken and indeed it is an investment. The challenge is selling the fact that it's an investment to all the people that are going to vote. That's always hard as you know. People have trouble visioning what that's going to do for them down the line. In my mind, it enhances the value of choosing South Burlington as a place to live for future families and that's what this city is all about and should be all about. Having said that, we can only build what we can afford. So I got a question that relates to my earlier one incrementally, how much will we save if we just build a library with an auditorium? I don't know how long it takes to come to an approximate number but we have to know that number before we can talk about that opportunity or possibility further. And then Tim just said something that is interesting. On the senior space, which is recreation space, maybe. This is just, and I just, you just made me think of this right now but we're just having a general conversation as to how we can do stuff that's affordable. Maybe if we reduce the space and took a lot of that down and out, maybe the potential deal with Tony Cairns on Dorset Street where he has the ability to put two more stories on his building, maybe in a couple of years we could then finance one of those stories on the building and that could become the senior space and it would be even more space than we're talking about now. Just a pie in the sky idea but his original permit, if I'm not mistaken, enabled him to have that building two stories higher. Is that? That's correct. So there's work in room there too. I'm just tossing out ideas. The next question I had is, how much, and I've just missed this. If we were to go just to library auditorium, how much parking is there with that? How much does it need? How much is there? Since we won't have the school property, I think we have to go up a level. Because we were under. Under, and that's an exceptionally high expense. It would be 60 spaces? 40,000 spaces. So it's two per thousand. How many spaces do we target? Two per thousand. Two per thousand. To what per thousand? Two spaces per thousand square feet. How many square feet are we talking about? It's approximately 30. Just the library? Right. Just the library would be 30. Well, library and auditorium. We need about 60 parking spaces underground in order to pull that off. That's the total number but we were able to fit less than 30, I think, underground. I've expressed this concern. So wait, hang on a second. Go ahead. You could only get 30 underground. I think we were 30 to 35 at the very most with a large footprint. Oh, but because of the alerts. If this was just a library, all it would have is 30 underground dedicated spaces. I'm not sure that you would get that many also because you would need space for your utility. That was without the utility easements. So let me then ask the rest of that question. Let's find that. If we'd be able to answer those. You'd have to take some of the underground parking potential now for the underground utilities. Right. Because we wouldn't need the school property and we wouldn't be building right to the edge. Right. So you'd have fewer parking spots. Correct. That's all we would have. And there's the Allard Square access, too. Does that take some away? Yes. So if we built the whole project, how many parking spaces do we have for the whole building? So we would need 100. We would have approximately 40 on site. And there would be 25 bicycle parking spaces. So that would reduce us to 75. So 25 plus 40, 65. And so the remainder would be off site. So we're tight on parking no matter which way we go. Yeah. But that's a, yeah. Those numbers are developed to parking spaces per 1,000 square feet based on library, retail. They're based on the form-based codes. So retail can be much higher. It can be up to five spaces per 1,000 in a suburban setting. So in the parking that we'll have will be directly behind the building that will be on site will be directly behind the building and at grade as opposed to in underground. If we went the whole thing, if we did the whole project. Well, if we include this school property in the project. Offsite would, when we say off site, how far off site? In the vicinity. So within a block. It has how many parking spaces? No, I know, but I'm thinking the middle of the winter it's discouraging for people. Within a block, right? It's around all these parking spaces. I guess we have to follow our own form-based code. But the reality is there are a gazillion parking spaces within walking distance to the proposed library. But there need to be enough parking places for the critical mass so that people who actually need to be closer can be closer. And if we go just library and we've got less than 25 spaces, 30 spaces underground versus 65 spaces for the whole shot at grade? 40 on site. On site. 40 off site, 25 bicycle. It's a parking is a challenge no matter how we slice it. Use the bus. Yes. The last piece I was going to ask is I'd like to, because we're just having a general discussion, I'd like to hear from Kevin and Tom when we talk about eating up most of our available funds. How do you guys see this as the city management? How do you see this as potentially impacting us going down the pike in the future? If we eat up 800, because the concern isn't we're only going to eat up $26,000 more, it's that we're eating up the ability to use any of the rest of it for anything else. I'm curious as to how you guys see it. Because you're the ones that are going to have to manage it. And so just in the general discussion, how do you see it? Is this high stakes, high risk game, or do you see? Gee, it's going to work out. Explain, please. I think one of the reasons that Alana had included in her memo to you what some of the other ideas were is just so that we wouldn't lose track of the total picture that we had in terms of priorities for city center and for the use of TIP money. Some of the things that Megan talked about earlier, really important things as the finance guy, I'm hearing you. To me, the general fund is the critical budget. And the TIP funding allows us to do some of the things we might not been able to do with the idea of building a city center reserve fund, which we've done. And we got it up to that $860,000 if last year wasn't so critical in terms of the number of things that we needed to have and had to cut, we wouldn't have taken it back to the $750,000. We knew that $860,000 was about in the ballpark where we needed to be. So I think the story that we've told to the voters over the years is that we're going to have opportunity through TIF financing to be able to do things that we wouldn't have otherwise been able to do. And that's why we went after this. Secondly, we told them that over a course of a number of years, we would build a reserve fund that would support the city share, the local share, to be able to do these types of things so that when these projects came up, we wouldn't ideally have to raise taxes any more than going to that city center reserve fund level that we had identified. This is pretty close to that, but you're right. That's kind of a capacity number for the reserve fund. So in terms of additional projects that we would look at in the short term, the potential for an indoor recreation space, I think, is a more immediate concern than maybe some of the other ones that Alana had listed on her sheet. But they're all important priorities to the city. And I think that's something that we do need to keep in the back of our minds. How we fund the general fund is different, I think. I think we're doing exactly what we told the voters we were going to do when we said we're going to build a reserve fund so that we have this capital outlay of money that we can utilize for these big projects. So are you saying that capital funds are not going to have an impact on things that are unanticipated, like an unanticipated 15% increase in health insurance, which is totally out of control or the need for a new fire trucker? So those are two separate pockets. The general fund, which comprises that $860,000 number. So if we increase that to $886,000, there's an additional $26,000 of money that would need to be found either through an increase in taxes or an increase in the grand list or a combination of those two things that would offset it. Right now, we'd be going up from 750, which was passed for this year. For the first time, for one year, we'd take a bigger jump. Yeah, I mean, what you'll see proposed this year on staff budget side would be back to the 860. If the council authorizes it to go to the 886, then that's the number you would see. But we'll be prepared to come back to you with the 860 number. And that's part of the increase that we'll be looking at for this year. The general fund itself, in terms of the capital budget, the capital improvement budget, has been cut over a number of years and has kind of got us to a place that is critical. In my mind, in terms of some of the expenditures that have been deferred down the road. A lot of towns have a dedicated 2 cent on the budget for capital funds. We don't have that. That's part of our budget number. So our tax rate is already built in, has the capital expenditures built into that. There's not an additional 2 cents that offsets that. A lot of towns around us have gone that route and they've been able to sustain their CIP that way. That makes a lot of sense to me. Yes it does. Voters saying why are we doing that for this? Why aren't we putting a reserve aside? So I guess what I'm saying, Megan, is that I am totally where you are in terms of we need to do something different with the general fund. We need to look at that operating in a different way. But I think we're doing exactly what we plan to do with the reserve fund and with the TIF money. It's just that we only have so much. But when we talk about the two pockets, they belong to the code of the taxpayer. Correct. So that's where it comes together. TIF makes sense because it requires debt. So the debt, to leverage the TIF opportunity, we have to go do a bond. We can't use the reserve thing you just described. But with the city hall, which is only 10% TIF financeable, I have voters saying why aren't we just putting some money aside every year to pay for a new city hall rather than bonding for it? Yes, yeah. So as part of this whole building, the city hall, I think as we've been talking about the site work, the land acquisition, that's in place. And then the city hall is on top of it. So on a square footage cost, the cost, well, when we portion everything out, it's quite a large cost, but the added cost to build the building, which I think we'll be talking about in the future, is not as high. But even still, once you fold in the site work and the land costs to put that aside, one of the things that a bond does is it allows the residents that are using the building to pay for it every year. So everyone's paying a little bit each year and you can spread that cost out over 30 years. So when someone might be here for two years and they'll still pay that cost or they may be here for 30 and they get 30 years worth of benefit out of it. It would be great to do a reserve fund, but if you put in this amount every year, it would take you 30 years and your net present value difference by the time you're ready to build, you still may be needing to put in a lot. So we would have to start now and save for a long time is all I'm saying. And that's not a bad thing. I did wanna show, since Todd brought this up, I just wanna expand this a bit. So I have two sheets here. One is a sheet and this one shows 26,000 more than 860,000. I'm showing this year as 2019 the following year it goes up. It does not actually have to go up for about 10 years, but at some point it will need to go up in order to, meaning that you can ease in the increase over time, you just end up with a higher increase at the end of that time and that is then steady for quite a while. But the impact is less, just under a 10th of a cent above the 860,000. And presumably the grand list increases each year a little bit. Which is not factored in. And that's not factored in. That's this year's grand list. And this also doesn't factor in any additional cost reduction due to a capital campaign or impact fees. I also, there were some cost reductions which I have a slide to show you and they're related to wow factor and sustainability elements of the proposed structure. And so those cost savings and there are other ones that we have question marks on but these ones add up to 800,000. That reduces the annual contribution to 840,000 and so less than 860,000. Right. And I can show you, so some of those are things that could be added later and some of them are things that would not. So the sustainability includes the structural strength for future expansion in talking with Steve's team and John's team. They feel that a lot of times when buildings are straightened for future expansion that is either never used. Now I explained that this is a 100 year building and we're not gonna buy another piece of land that is this good in this area. So, but because codes change over time, so depending on the timeframe between when this building is occupied and when the expansion occurs, codes may change. In addition, the needs may change and we may be looking for an addition in a different location on the building. That looks like some library somewhere or something maybe. And a green roof is one item that can be added at a later date so it doesn't have to go in with the building. And then the sunshade fins on the front, I also think they look really cool. But those are not essential to the functioning of the building. This is my last question of three. And it's on that spreadsheet. Can she finish with some other? So some of the wow factor items, the central skylight in the library, the roof terraces on the third floor and on the library, the fireplaces, there's three of them in the building, the sidewalk snow melt that's in the front of the building and the rear of the building, the generator. Most of our buildings do have generators and most of them have emergency functions. This building would not have an emergency function and an emergency usually we would go, not we but city management would go to public works and or the police department, police department or public works. And then the type of elevator, we have the nicer elevator right now, there could be an equally functional elevator that would cost less money. So to get combined, those two were about 800,000. It's possible we could pull another 800 or maybe more out of the building and especially down the road once more is known. So that is the second spreadsheet which I'll walk you through. However, Should we go back, I'm sorry. Yep. So based on a $17.2 million bond which is this spreadsheet that I was just showing you, that resulted in an eight, I believe it was $820,000 annual contribution to the reserve fund. And it slightly reduces the TIF contribution also, although less so. So my quick questions on that point. So this is general obligation debt. My question is with the five million that we did for Market Street and city center, adding 4.43, let's round it up to 10 million. Of that 10 million that we're gonna finance over 17 years minus the one or two years, that amount is approximately how much in 2020 and how much development has occurred. How close are we to it? I'd love to get this spreadsheet by the way so I can answer these questions outside of open session. Yes. Yes. So in 2020, we estimate that there would be an increment in the amount of $120,000 annually and the cumulative receivable that we would be booking is 220,000. One of the secondary features of the reserve fund is that we can use it as a cushion against our receivable. And so I have at the bottom here is shows us what we would have in the reserve fund account over that period. So if we... We have $78,000 coming in this year. Is that correct? So as of this year, we've got $78,000 from the development that's already occurred, Trader Dukes and so on. Right, right. And then we estimate that there would be 84,000, almost 85,000. I'm sorry, we know that. That's a no number, this number. And then this is an estimated number. And this is based on the development of a property that's two properties, one property that's under, I believe in sketch plan and one property, I believe both of them are in sketch plan and we'll be at, one of them we count them when they're occupied on April 1st. So, and there's various degrees of development that they will reach before each April 1st. So it takes a year or two for them to come on. Ballard Square is going to be occupied in... Next April 1st. Yes, but they actually are, some of them are moving in in September. Right, right. So we'll get a portion, partial payment? We get a payment based on whatever building was there on April 1st of 2018, yeah. So I'm sensing a strong degree of confidence that we will have about $300,000 of TIF increment financing by 2021, 2022 based on what we know about current development trends in the TIF district. Yes. You have that confidence, Kevin and Tom? Great. So we're all good with that. And so if I could follow up on that, if indeed we took the entire package and slimmed it down by $800,000 to a million dollars and then there's no impact to taxpayers and with the increase in the money that we just talked about, then you're pretty confident we've got a pretty good cushion there. This is a conservative estimate on the TIF side of it. The part that seems to be more troubling right now is bringing it back up to the 860 because that will be a tax increase for this next year because we're currently at 750, so that's 110,000 that we'll need to add back into a tax increase or growth within the grand list that can absorb that within this next first year. And then the idea is to keep that steady. Let me ask this question because I just thought of that. The total project here, if we don't take anything out, is what, 22 million? 22 and a half. 22 and a half. So let's say we took a million out. It's 21 and a half and the original discussion was 17 and a half? 21 and a half. No, the original, original discussion. Well, it was the roughest of the rough estimates. 17 and a half? No, it was 16 and a half. So how much of a, you know, let's just use 18 then. In three and a half million dollars, how much of a difference, right? We're talking three and a half million dollars between what we started with way back by in the sky and what we've got now from a tax perspective. What does that mean? That's about a cent. About a cent. So it's not, I mean, we're talking about pennies for pass tomorrow, a cent. It's 30 bucks on a $300,000 home, right? So, my only point there is, if indeed, your conservative numbers- Doesn't we keep everything else level? If your conservative numbers are good and you've got to have a belief that, you've got to have a belief in a good future. I mean, otherwise to think negatively, we can't run a city like that. This is about three pennies for 30 years. So the pennies for pass is a penny for 10 years. This is about three pennies for 30 years. To get all this isn't too bad of a deal. I think, looking to the future and looking for what Sandy said, an investment in our future. I think it's pretty good. I think we probably do have to take that number, that original number and try and knock out 800 to a million bucks and- And probably very few people are going to say, gee, you messed up the building. It's still going to be a pretty darn nice building because a lot of that, some of it can go in later and some of it's nobody's going to notice because it wouldn't have put it in in the first place.  And I'm thinking that based on what I've heard from you folks is that just to come down to a library auditorium, the infrastructure cost and the loss of parking is going to make that something that's going to be a lousy investment. I don't know that as a fact, but based on what you've said and the needs that are going to stay there and some of the costs that are going to increase, I think that's going to be a losing proposition. It's not going to be a good deal. But I'd like to get that number. Well, I know it would be nice to have that number. So maybe you can figure that out within 10% or so. Well, there's the other side of the ledger too, and that's the school side. And they have talked about needing more space and either having to rent it, administrative space or buy it or something. Well, that's a great point because we screw the deal up. Same taxpayers that pay that bill as pay the city portion. So what you're saying is if they don't get this building we're screwing up the school. We're not screwing up the schools, but that's another potential tax increase that we don't control. That's, again, it's not our conversation. I would want David Young to come in and talk about it directly with his accounting guy. Pardon me? I would want David and his accounting guy to come in and talk about it directly. I don't want to presuppose anything about what their budgets are like or what administrative space they actually need, which is precluding real programming space for the school. I don't know what those facts are. No. That's just conjecture at this point. I know all the facts. I just have heard David say that there's an impact and they are looking at that. They're looking at that. Right. I understand. As we are looking at this. I understand. And I'm just saying, this was one way that potentially alleviates that pressure on the school portion of our taxes. So it's not just a zero sum. Does this include a contingency? Because costs have always go up. Okay. There's an owner's contingency and news account match. The construction one is currently at about $800,000. And the design one, I believe, is $700,000 combined, the right 10% of the building cost. And then there's all the fees on top of that. Sorry? So there's the fees and the purchasing the land. Oh, okay. Those are the numbers we don't have. Okay. All right. To Tim's point, just raised. That's really raised before. I want to hear on Wednesday with the school board how much they want need this space. That's an important thing to hear. Is that a question I have for them? I think that's very fair. Yes. I'm not sure they've had enough time to think about it, but they will have some thoughts. And just from a discussion about a parking garage or not a parking garage, an elevated parking garage, they're feeling about a north facing balcony. I would be very curious to hear too, based on the schools. The schools. Shooters, active shooters. That was a concern raised. That was the concern about a parking garage. The balcony. Yes. Overlooking this. North side. That's the second story. It's the country we live in. I certainly don't. I hope we don't have to get to metal detectors in our library. That's just what I want to. OK. Jay, you've been pretty patient. I wanted to say a few things. I love this building. It makes perfect sense to have City Hall in City Center. And having all of this together makes perfect sense. But there is that number, that total number, that I don't know. You probably have a better feel. Will the city go for it? I hope they do. I think it makes perfect sense. But two alternatives, if it didn't. If you knocked out City Hall, I'm not thrilled with going without a non-parking. If you knocked out City Hall, you're cutting the parking need, I would assume, in half? No? I don't know. Just the staff part. Because the staff part, but not the user part. Is this where they're just determined? Well, if you did, if you took the City Hall off, it's going to be less money. I'm not thrilled with underground parking. Is there an option? I know how easy it is to negotiate with the school. You've done that to add some parking, as they have now, to allow for us to build on that space just the two floors of the library. My concern is the library. I'd love to have the City Hall, too. My concern is the library. The second alternative has, it was brought up about Snyder Braverman incorporating into their buildings. Has anybody ever talked, as a city, talked to them to put it into one of that? Could they incorporate into one of their buildings what we, in fact, need for City Hall not to build an Allen Square-type building, but a building that could have two floors of an appropriate library, and then they build two floors of whatever they want above it? Well, we have had a Gene Barone came in. He initially said when he wanted to buy central school and put a target and all sorts of things. He talked about that very thing, that he would put the library. He would build it, and it would be part of the deal. No one else has come forward with that idea, I don't think. But has anybody spoken to Senator Braverman to say, would you do this? Not recently, Jay, I can pretty much tell you if, for the right price, they will lease us, or kind of minimize for us in another building someplace. And then I don't know the costs are going to be that much different, but I don't think it's going to change the square foot cost of the expectation of the library and senior center. If we leased, we wouldn't be able to use tip money to pay a lease, would we? We're asking the question about whether or not we could if it were a capital lease. And I don't know that we have that answer, do we? We have half of it. So I have half of the answer, which means I don't have it from the tax department yet, but I have it from the other department. And the answer is yes. But I think that you would still be facing, you would still have the same soils and the same structural concerns on the site. Jay's talking about another site, but the soils are pretty consistent with that throughout. In fact, I think this is the closest site to, there's one other site that might be closer to bedrock, but it's not. I would just restate an earlier point. I heard you, Kevin, but I did meet with Tim McKenzie. And my concern is still that the adjacent property, if they're not happy with their access to their underground garage, my understanding from that meeting with Tim McKenzie is SB Realty, they still own this property, and that they couldn't negate this purchase and sale agreement if they feel harmed by the layout of this. So I feel like they still have to be placated or on board with the current footprint of this building. We certainly want them on board. None of us want to go to court over this. The issue goes to the agreement that Snyder-Braverman has with Cathedral Square about whether or not development next door will affect the value of their property. And I think it would be a very difficult case to make that this is going to negatively affect the value of their property. Maybe that's executive sense. We don't want to go there. I think we can work this out with them and have been talking to them about how to make this work for everybody. I can't find the document right now. I just wanted to raise that in 2016. We had seen numbers for just a library loan, and it was about $10 million. I remember seeing that. Yeah, and I can't draw out the document. Oh, and we had the three things. Yeah, $10 million. Yeah. Is that the, that was the body? Durham, Whittier? That was what I originally heard when I first started running for council in 2015. When Bobby Mainz said the task force, and they went through all three. They had six meetings. Bobby Mainz was the chair, Sam Dooley was on that. Right. Price has been increased. Oh, right. Oh, I'm sure it would be higher than $10 million, but it's still, I don't think it would, right, it's just kind of a base to think about. And it's at the build, and that's an estimate for the building alone. So it does not include land acquisition or site fees, parking, utility connections, all of those types of fees. These things factor into competing interest that we weigh every year with the budget. So that's why I think we're all honed in on this $23 million price tag. Do you have other things you wanna share with us? I think I got through everything. I think that we can redesign the building. That would, we would delay the process during that and probably refine, every budget would be refined. We can look at additional costs and obviously stay where it is, but I don't feel that's the direction that you wanna go in. And my understanding for Wednesday, unless you guys have a good sense of where we're going, that we're going to see what type of information we can give you regarding the, regarding removing City Hall and possibly more than City Hall from the site and what fits and what that might look like. And otherwise, to just continue this discussion, is that? Is that the consensus? I mean, I certainly get the sense that you have a list of between $800,000 and a million dollars worth of refinements or cuts that you are suggesting are not easy to do, but you could do them and you have a price tag approximately. And I'm sensing that we definitely wanna look at those. Is the council interested in having them go through the process of eliminating City Hall from this? Just to see the cost of the functions. What would, yeah. I'm not saying I wanna do that, but for me to make the argument to voters, I would love to know what just the library would cost. But I don't wanna see them have to spend 24 hours between now and Wednesday figuring this out. It shouldn't take too long, I wouldn't think, to say if we knock this off, what do we still have to do? Educated estimate. An educated estimate, yeah. Nothing. I mean, is that possible? Or is that even fair to ask? It's all computers, right? Yeah, you just walk by the computer. Right, that's not realistic, just say we can't realistic do that in a fair. What's our deadline to get this on the November ballot? August 24th. August 24th, you have a public hearing warned for August 20th. You can. I love meetings. Also, I wouldn't advise this, but you could consider putting it on a separate ballot from the state. But that's also possible. That'll give you a little more time. It's a big decision, so. You know. So what is the consensus? I'd like to see a breakdown by function. Megan, not in detail, just as Tom said it, what do you call it? Differential. An educated estimate. An educated right. An educated estimate. Educate this. Because, you know, that's gonna give us a pretty good idea. If you tell me a library alone will cost 17 million or more, then that tells me that it's worth putting City Hall on this postage stamp. I don't think so. But if a library would just cost 10 million. I mean, 15 million in my mind is too much to spend just not a lot. If a library would just cost 10 million on this property, then I'm not convinced we need to put City Hall there. But it's not just a library, it's an auditorium, too, where there would be concerts and we could have our meetings. And so the auditorium is essential to this because the public has talked about an auditorium or because it was added and it is really cool. Because I don't remember library discussions with, we wanna build a library and we want a great auditorium with the library. Now I may be wrong, but was that part of the conversation? Yeah, yeah, it was, it was hardly a conversation with that task force and it was thinking that it would be shared space between the recreation which would like to have the auditorium and the library. That was, I would defer to the library board and telling us what the library should or shouldn't have. Michael, and then Sandy. The auditorium was to be the council chamber as well. I know that's, they're talking about earlier studies. Well, I was talking about earlier studies as well. I just don't remember having this huge auditorium as part of the conversation. Remember the South Brillington City Arts project? Yeah, but that was the City Arts project. And the library said that we want 150 feet and so that's, there was a separation between the two projects, is that? Right, but that was a later conversation, as I recall. That was not the original conversation. I don't know how original. Michael? Yeah, it's, we shouldn't, I understand all the concerns about cost and cost overruns and taxation and all the rest of it, but this building is the aspiration of South Burlington residents. This is their dream. And we shouldn't underestimate the importance of that. The other thing is, the more you put on a piece of land, it's the land that is very expensive, the more efficient it is. And this is the anchor for city center. We've been talking about city center for 25 years. If we remove the anchor, it's a waste of time. So this is the anchor and will represents the brand of South Burlington. We should not shortchange that and forget about that. It has a big value. I just wanted to reiterate that I think the vision, I haven't really seen it articulated in terms of the programming, but I think it's premature in terms of the design and programming and vision for the senior center, given the change in lifestyles of seniors and how many seniors we have in the community and how many participate in our program. At an earlier conversation or discussion we had, I know somebody, maybe I, posed the opportunity in the future if the senior center, if we built one or had another rec center where the seniors could move to, that space could revert to the library because they had to skinny down their expectations. So I think, I agree with you. It's not a pickleball court.  But it is a, the senior center's space as in vision is probably not the senior center space for 2050, but I don't think any of us know that. But it has significant costs as far as I can see. Well it does, but I think it can also provide expansion opportunity for the library or even city hall if our city grows from 19,000 to, I don't know, the rate we're going, 30,000 at point, we'll need a bigger library, or at least someone will think we will. Jennifer will, she's still here. Yes. I do think the auditorium is an important piece of the library space if we're able to keep to that because with programming, when we were in the high school and even now in the current library we're doing programming outside of the mall to have that auditorium space to be able to do those larger classes and music and bringing that all together is a really, is a really nice piece of the project, I believe. Oh I think it's a huge benefit to the community, don't get me wrong, I just. I'm also on a library trustee and I just wanted to clarify that there were two sets of 800,000 savings. There was the easy ones, which describes initially, but in that second bunch, my ears perked up when I heard no skylight, I mean, I don't know, that's, but if that's the piece that's that bringing that light into the middle building, I'm gonna be harping a little, sorry, but you know, there's some of those wow factor things that got into the, yeah, in this slide. Okay, so let's go through them then. The skylight's $50,000. Greater than. What? Right? Where did you get that? The double, two dollar figure eight in it. Between 50 and 100. Right. Oh no, it's greater than 50,000. It's greater than 50, but less than 100,000, yeah. Okay, so, anyway, it would just. Fireplaces and to be aware. I think Lou Brzee made a great point at the last meeting is we can do these things slowly over time, so I don't know if a skylight is easy to put in 10 years from now. Okay, so let's keep the skylight. Right, so let's try it. But gas inserts in a fireplace would be easier to construct. As long as you have some wall space somewhere. I really think you should ask the school board about the North Library of Terrace. I really think we should. Just given you were out of town, but that's probably going to be about the part. Oh, I heard that in the conversation. The North Library, the North Terrace? Is having any kind of service for someone outside who'd be facing. North is always questionable for a terrace anyway. It's the least amount of sun, okay. So, if you're gonna sacrifice something, maybe that's an easy one. Well, easy to do. Sidewalk snow melt. I know this is dear to your heart, David. Well, no, it's not dear to my heart. It just seems to be a very practical thing to do. From a safety perspective, and a maintenance perspective. What's the energy cost? There's a couple different types of systems. They range from $6,500 to $7,500 per year to operate with the system that's shown, which is about the largest system that we would have, which does the sidewalk in the back of the building and the sidewalk in the front of the building. Let's put a data center closet right under the sidewalk and just dissipate the heat into the sidewall. I can do that too. Yeah, that's a good idea, that is a good idea.  I don't know if it's a $6,500 a year job, hence I guess on how much snow we have, right? Shared patron responsible. It's almost a damage to the inside of the building, having salt and sand tracked in on a daily basis too. You eliminate all that, you got a lot cleaner built. Sure. I like the idea, I mean, if you could put a harder number down, greater than 100,000, around 100,000, I think those are the features that the community would get proud of, who would you be proud of? My library, the sidewalk self-melt, so if it's a hundred K. I don't think that's the point, John, the point is. Middlebury feels to that they're lacrosse, and they're more than melted. But they're proud of it. I love it, it's green. The point is all safety and maintenance. Safety and maintenance, please. Especially if you've got a senior center in there and with the library. A lot, you know, most lawsuits in the winter deal with slip and fall. We can eliminate even having to litigate, even having to settle, and one slip and fall lawsuit pay for the whole damn thing. At your grandfather's. You know. Well, we're not getting very far. What's the other list that was harder to, I like the sunshade fins to stay too. I think the green roof can be added as Steve said, but the sunshade fins, I think that having the cooling, that's worth a lot for the south side of that building. I would give a future expansion as well. I mean, I think you made a great case that rarely do you ever really expand that way. So, I mean, that was something I thought originally was important, but as I understand the cost of the foundation without bolstering it with another floor or two, that's probably kind of silly to hang on to, in my opinion. Well, no, it's also, I mean, there's other land that we will have available. If we need 8,000 square feet for something, we can find space to do it someday down the road, 10 or 15 years. It's not like we're gonna run out of land, depending on what it's for. Depends on how we use our land. Well, true. We're gonna run out, but I would, I mean, I'm okay with that. I think the green roof we could do later. Yeah. I'm okay with that, so that's a couple hundred thousand there. I don't know how much energy the sunshade fins actually save. If it's a lot, then it may be worth leaving them in there. That's an air conditioning saving in the summertime. And, right? And that's becoming more and more necessary, isn't it? Yeah. Steve, do we have to put shades in addition? To the fins, or will the fins take the place of shades? Well, the fins on the outside are gonna function in a different way than they would on the inside. The ones on the outside are meant to block the summer sun, but to allow the winter sun into the building. An internal shade that somebody can control is more about, I don't really want the sun on me right now, I could make that change. You still have, even with the fins do you have internal shades? That's what he says. I think he would want them anyway. Yes, they're different functions. They're different functions. Well, it sounds like people don't want to lose the skylight, is that right? I'm not trying. Any? Talking to you. Well, I was talking to the council. Oh, thanks. The skylight stays in, except for the skylight. Well, everything you read, even from medical perspective, the more natural light people have, the better it is for people if you can handle the heat. The windows on the outside. We're gonna do this, let's keep the skylight. As for the North Terrace, the school shooter concerned is valid, so if we're gonna save money by dropping it, I'm hoping to get that. I gotta tell you, you're talking about Terrace in from the city hall. If somebody with that intent has to get through the city hall to do that, we got under problems. The world we live in, that's the top of the library. The east face one is on top of the second floor, right? Yes, so you're correct. It's the second floor of the library and the third floor of the building. There's one on the north and one on the south. Well, the one in the back, okay. Is that correct? Yep, you're both correct. If we don't have a terrace on the north library in just these states. But I did have a long conversation with Sergeant Duby about this and he felt that this is not, that both because of the distances involved and because of the number of people a shooter would have to pass by that someone would notice them or they would be coming into city hall, they're screened and it's such a distance from the front door in the library that, and I would recommend that the school board or you have a conversation with him because he was very articulate on the subject. I'm a parent of voter and that could be a sticking point so I think the school board needs to weigh in on that. Well, if you don't put a terrace on the north end, is it just empty space? You can make it a terrace later? It could be a terrace later. So, I mean, as we said, north terrace is not the best terrace in the world anyway, so leave the east third floor and take out the north, right? Good compromise. Make sense? The other way, is it whatever you say? Then we'll get to the fireplace, because that's a tough one. Oh, we need the fireplace, I guess. Does the center need a fireplace? I mean, really. Jennifer? I think downstairs when you enter, that is sort of a focal point. That's really cool. But for the senior center living room? Why about the library upstairs? Do they need one? I'd be happy with one downstairs. Yeah, I would be happy with one in the downstairs too. Now, we've got one downstairs and no others. The fireplace, especially the one downstairs, was one of the big things. Yeah. The visual, because of the visual. Yes, no, and I wouldn't want to get rid of that. I mean, I think that should be really beautiful. Yeah, they just asked you. They said, Rec, what do you think about it? Oh, sorry. Yes. Yes. Oh, sorry, I did not hear you ask a question about fireplaces for senior center. Do you need one here? Just a minute. The answer's wrong. Or say yes. No, I think it's a friend. I don't think we need a fireplace. There we go. One downstairs. We don't have to have one. It isn't a burning issue. Oh. Very good. OK, we've got one fireplace downstairs, and we ditched the two others. What's the next item? The elevators. I think it's great to think about putting in a noisier elevator, but in the library. And it'd be nice to have a quiet elevator as it's not chinking up the, but I don't know what the degree is of. Where is the elevator? Isn't it in the main entrance, not the library? Oh, there's two. We have to have two. Put the noisier one next to this city clerk's office, and then turn her one in the library. Well, one of them is next to the city clerk's office, and one of them is in the entrance to the library, and then it's still there, right? Has it been? And with the switch to the hydraulic system, there will need to be an additional room attached about the same size as the elevator, attached to the elevator. So that would end up, I believe, would be on the ground floor for the library. It'd have to be the, well, the next floor up, I think, would be the second floor. Hydraulic's quieter. Hydraulic's a noisier. And requires an extra room. And requires extra space. Why would that be a savings? And how much are we saving? 40,000. Quite elevators. 40,000. Right. How many square feet? Another room? Leave the elevators. 50 square feet? How many are there? Per? That seems like it's a lot. So there would have to be a room here, and then one here. Yeah, let's leave the elevators. Leave the elevators. Keep them quiet. When was the last time you had a power plant out here? It didn't, it lasted more than a couple of minutes. Now we have a generator next. Yeah, that's right, I'm going there. We're getting a better number for the sidewalks. So we can decide on that Wednesday. Generator, do you need a generator? You do for critical functions, like we do for the PD and the fire department. But don't they have one? Oh, but you don't for city hall and the library. We have one here, because the police department used to be there. Right, right.  OK, generators out. Is it the center of the adder on that? I actually remember the generator kicking in here when we were having a meeting. You couldn't ask what the price is for renting a power wall from G&P. Number why I would, I would. We can ask. You couldn't use a power wall from G&P. We can ask for that, yes. Does that give you enough specific help with how to hone this down a little bit? Yes, it does. Because it's not a million anymore. Maybe we can keep it at 800. Any other questions or thoughts anyone has? David? Yeah, not related to dollar cuts, but if we took out enough so that there was no need for any more taxes, right? If we eliminated the need for a tax increase. The $26,000? The extra $26,000? Yeah, that $0.001 cent or whatever. How would then a ballot item read? Borders would approve it's debt. Yeah, we're asking for a debt, but not for that. And can you make in, I'm just thinking, of saleability to people who don't pay a lot of attention. And it's all about, am I paying more taxes or am I not paying more taxes? If I am, I'm voting against it. And if I'm not, it's OK. Can you word that such that this does not increase your tax rate? Can you put that right in there? I take your point, but it's important to be perfectly transparent in these discussions, too. That's pretty transparent. Yeah, I see what you're saying. Well, that's with some ifs. I don't think we could put the language in the ballot. The contingency's in there. I don't think so. In your support letters that you write to the other paper, it would be a selling point to say that our budget is not going to increase. Our reserve fund is not going to increase the paper. As part of our outreach and education about the question, we can certainly talk about where the funding comes from and how it affects the taxpayer. We can't put language on the ballot that says this does not increase your tax rate. Why? That's very transparent. That's very truthful. It doesn't often go into that level of detail. We're committing for the next 30 years residents to repay this, because that's what a bond is. That's different. Tax rates, otherwise, we can adjust them year to year. This is where we owe this money, our good faith and credit. All I'm asking is about the tax rate. Now, I interpret that.  Well, that's the point I'll take. I would just say, what if? If that's what I mean, all I'm thinking of is how you sell this. It's a valid point. If we could get it below the budgeted capital reserve fund, that is a talking point. Yeah. And if that's how we do it, that's how we do it. OK. Any further discussion or thoughts that you want to share tonight? Oh, good. Well, thank you very much. I think this was really helpful. I appreciate the comments and thoughts from the public as well, and the different interactions among the council. It's like we have some work ahead of us. Yeah. Do you want to? So for Wednesday night, the meeting is worn for 5.30. The dedication of the park is at 4. We will have pizza here probably for you in the interim. Although after the discussion tonight, it made us eat cheese pizza. No veggies. No meat. And you're going to have to have water. No, but after the break. Do you want to still have the school board join you? Are you at the place where you want to have the school board? Because they have been warned into that meeting. Yeah. I think we have a question from the right about the school. They were warned in for the purpose of the Eastman agreement. Yes, it was not. So if the council is not ready for that, that should probably be postponed. Well, the Eastman agreement includes whether or not they need this building. And it was based on the assumption that eventually they would want this building. True. I just think that the purpose should be clear as to why they're coming. They may not be coming to co-sign the agreement yet. Well, would it be helpful? Can we have the conversation with the school board chair or the superintendent or whatever that the conversation isn't really going to be, are we going to sign this thing? But rather, we would like to understand how certain they might be about eventually wanting this building. Because we're. That's an important piece for me. It is a piece in terms of funding the whole spang. And whether even we need the Eastman. Yeah, yeah. Would that possibly be just then the chair? Sure. Do you want the whole board? Because, see, they have their part of the ballot item, too, that they have to warn. I don't know if they can meet to have the chair represent the whole board. So I don't know if they've even had the conversation, which is what I'm more concerned about. But David may have some thoughts. I mean, they certainly had a dollar figure in their last year's budget that they took out for renting some space. I remember in the conversation, they needed a space for programming in the middle school. I mean, they're sort of in four different places. So they certainly