Let's talk one-on-one. Here we gon' talk, we gon' have fun. We be on fire, we be Lidly. It's a unique hustle. Check it, check it, check it. It's a unique hustle. It's your boy, E-C-E-O, and I'm here with the lovely, amazing, official Miss Jamaica. What's going on? None, none, you know I'm gonna have a walk on. But let me tell y'all, don't forget to like, subscribe, follow us on all social media platforms, including our new platform, it's Patreon. That's where you're gonna see our full length interviews after a while.  But for a small membership fee, you can see all of our full length interview even before time on Patreon. Man, y'all hear she say it even before time on Patreon. It's almost like a commercial. Check it, man. Hey, man, we got a guy here today, y'all. He really don't need no introduction. This guy right here, a man. Man, it go all the way back for me, man. Miss Ice Cream Man and all them other hits, man. There's a lot of hooks. This guy right here done been on, man, created a wave, man, a no limit soldiers in the building, man. But really a beach by the pound of original, man. Check it, man. Moby Dick is in the building. What's going on? What's happening, brother? It's a blessing to be here. You heard me? Oh, I just love it, you heard me? Man, so, man, you know, man, like I said, K.L., man, that's my guy, man. He been rocking with me, man. And he put me on, you know, he put me on early in the game in this show. We came by here, shot out to Corey Clout, who brought him through. Corey brought him through. We just had started this thing, man. And it was a blessing, man. And now look what's gonna happen, man. You know, I'm waiting on either beach by the pound chain or no limit chain. You know what I'm talking about? Yeah, I made that introduction between him and Corey Claycorn. That's him, yeah. Yeah. So you and Corey, how did you link with Corey? Well, man, shout out to my frat brother, Ike Williams, man. He's a basketball phenom, man. He used to play for the University of New Mexico. Okay. And by way of the fraternity, the bruzz. Hey! You know what I'm saying? Shout out to the bruzz, root to the bruzz. Well, we had a project that- What's the name of the fraternity? Omega Psi Phi fraternity incorporated. Incorporated. The only, one and only. But me and him, we were working on a project back in 2000, 21, 2000, my bad, 2001, 2002. And we had a project that we had in East Dallas called Texas Best Kept Secret. You know what I'm saying? TBKS for short. And while we were working on that project, you know, we were going all over Dallas from East Dallas to Oak Cliff to Pleasant Grove to, you know what I'm saying? All over Dallas, man. And we were finding talent and we put it all on this one project and Cory had his own label. I forgot the name of the label he had back in the day. Out there in Oak Cliff, he had some artists, one I can remember is Sir Charles, he was on that project. We put him on that project and Cory was always a boss from day one, man. You know what I'm saying?  And when we met, it was just instantaneous vibe and connection and eventually I introduced him in KL, Seaman KL, got introduced to the project as well. So that's how that happened. Wow. Okay, so how I like to do it here, because I like to get to know you as a person and not you as the artist or the entertainer and so forth. But growing up in New Orleans, what part of New Orleans were you raised in? Or born in? I actually was raised in a town that's due west, 80 miles to the west of New Orleans called Morgan City, Louisiana. I've heard that before. Yeah, it's actually on the outskirts of that incorporated section called Syracuseville. Never heard that one before. But it's right there, you know, it's Morgan City. We use the zip code and also the post office. So that's why I was raised there, you know what I'm saying? What was it like being raised there compared to when people talk about New Orleans and the things that go on in New Orleans, was your city any different? A major difference, you know, because it's more industrial. Okay. You know, we're connected to the shrimp and petroleum industry, seafood and petroleum. Like a lot of your big companies like Halliburton is connected, it's located there, you know what I'm saying? Those who push the petroleum products and drill offshore. So matter of fact, I used to work in that industry myself, you know what I'm saying? So yeah, it was pretty industrious, but at the same time it has its struggles, it had, you know, everybody got their thugs, you know, they got their knuckleheads, their hard heads. So, you know, and a lot of people from our area, you know, when they're getting in the street like they want them going to the prisons like ain't going to repopulate those prisons, you know what I'm saying? That's nothing to glorify, but we're in there, you know what I'm saying? So you talk about knuckleheads. Were you a knucklehead as a kid growing up? No, actually, I was a good kid. Really? But I made some bad choices that got older trying to, you know, you know, test the streets. I've been in them streets. I've been in the prison system as well. You know what I'm saying? But I was raised by some good people. So mom and dad in the household? Absolutely, both parents. That's good, married? Married, yeah, to my dad passed in 2009. That's a blessing, because looking back now you see how many people didn't have that. Oh yeah, that's real, that's real. So I was blessed to raise with both parents and, you know... But did you value that as a child? Because most kids don't value it. Oh man, I still value it. But as a child? Absolutely. Really? Absolutely as a child. Because our neighborhood was built on those. Most everybody in our neighborhood and really in our city, you know, most of us had both our parents, you know what I'm saying? And I wasn't raised with my, with a grandmother, but you know what I'm saying? But I was raised with my parents and uncles and, you know, families, everything now. Right. So you had siblings as well? Absolutely. I was raised with my baby sister. Baby sister, you're the oldest? Well, by way of my mother, but my dad had kids before he married my mother. So I have an older brother that I knew. I have an older... Well, he's deceased, he passed away. Oh, the rest? Yeah, passed away. Rest in peace, Stanley, T. Joe, that's my big brother. You know, that's the only big brother I knew. That I had.  So when did you start loving music? How old were you? And why? I think it was in the embryo. I was in the embryo. So your mama used to play, because you know how they say that?  Absolutely. So that's where you think that happened? I think that happened. Then it's also in the bloodline, you know what I'm saying? I come from, you know, a lineage of musicians. Tell me some of them. My grandfather for starts, he gave me a Washington, it's my mom's dad. And he was, his family's, but really the church's minister of music. Oh, okay. Ultimately, I became a minister of music in the church later. Okay, so you were raised in the church as well? Absolutely, yeah. That's good. So where did you get the name Moby Dick? Because that's the part that I'm like, okay, where did that come from and how old were you when you came up with that and why? Well, I was, I went through several names when I was choosing my path in the music industry. So like, I was, you know, went from musician to beat maker, to producer, always had. Because you were singing in the church first, right? Yeah, I was singing there in the church first, you know what I'm saying? In the church choir, ever since I was like a youth. But that name, you know, I'm going to have to because I got this one out. Oh, okay. You can find that out in here. Oh, you're gonna leave me. That's the book, wait, I'm not gonna put that in here. So it tells it all in the book. Oh, I got everything, you know. Because you know, when people think about Moby Dick, you think about the kid's story, the whale, right? Yeah, I mean, but see, you spell it different. A lot of people spell my name with the Y when I separate it. And you'll find out in that book called Moby Dickopedia. Dickopedia. Mm-hmm, yeah. So yeah, that's one of them I have to send on the scam, send people on the scam to hunt for. Nice, I love the pictures in there. I could say this much is not what you think. It's not what you think. But you hit a good point on the Moby, the whale. I mean, compared to the whale. Right, because that's the first thing I think about when I think about that name growing up. You know what I mean? Well, I would say that it does have some connotations of that. Because, you know, it's a lot of people read that book in elementary or college. Exactly.  That's not what I'm talking about. But, you know, being that he was a beast in that water. Right. And I was raised around nothing but water. Like three bodies of water, bayou, river, lake. Yeah, right there. So it's like, well, I'm from, it's like a big island. Matter of fact, I used to call it Tiger Island. Oh, okay. But coming up in the church and you were singing. And, you know, you said you love music from, you know, the embryo, but when did you decide what genre of music and how you're going to take those steps to go into that? Because you were singing in the church, so you could have branched off into gospel, R&B. You could have done so many different things. Great question, great question. I've never been asked that before. Great journalist. Oh yeah, this is how we win over here at Moby. Great journalist. We ready, I can promise you. This is going to be the best interview ever. What did the DOC say? This was a good one. Are you from here too? Yeah, he was. Shout out to the DOC man, we love that guy man. Let's get to it. So this is what happened. I've been a musician all my life. Right. You know, kind of accolades from high school, junior high and stuff like that in the band. Went all the way from fifth grade to college. Actually I marched at Southern University. What instrument did you play in the band? I played several, the whole, but at Southern University I played the melophone. Okay. Mm-hmm. But jazz has always been my love in R&B, especially the 70s and the 80s. I think that's the best stretch of all. Like how can you come from New Orleans and not love jazz? I love jazz. I don't think anybody in New Orleans don't love jazz. Well really, we started pop culture and a lot of people don't know. If you do your history, pop culture comes from jazz. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? So without jazz it wouldn't be no nothing. Right, right. So but anyway, my love is actually that, but hip hop was very popular. You know what I'm saying? When I came in my college days and stuff like that and for a while I didn't have a real good appreciation of it and really tell like the gangster rap came out. I could identify what NWA was talking about, what Skool-E-D was talking about. You know what I'm saying? What was the first song you heard that made you relate? Actually, Hard Times by Ron Dempsey. Hey. Okay. You know what I'm saying? War going on across the city. It's across the city. Hell. Nothing. Nothing but they coming for me and something. Nothing with him. Street soldiers killing the enemy or something like that. You know what I'm saying?  And that's the way it is. Hard Times had the same cadence. Yep, Hard Times, you know what I'm saying? I would say the message also. You know what I'm saying? That was Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five. And you know, I related to those. Those are things I really related to. But then when things that were going on in my neck of the woods, I would say NWA, you know, that dope man, that stuff right there. Because during that time, that was going on everywhere. I thought it was just in my area. But then when they said that, I'm like, okay. It's happening everywhere. Not just here, it's California too. You know what I'm saying? So I identified with that. And Schoolie D was that one he did. I can't think of it right now. PSK 13, that right there, you know. So that made you branch off into the rap? Yeah, because I was out of youth and I wanted to be here.  And you wanted the girls? Yeah. But that never was a problem. Never was a problem, I had them and you know. Oh, okay. I had my share. I got you, I got you. So, but what steps did you take to get to where you are today? Like first of, because there's a lot of young people who are watching who have been trying to get into this music industry for years and can't get a break. So what did you do and how long did it take you? The R word, research. Back in the day, we didn't have the internet. Internet, exactly. We had libraries. So you could find whatever you wanted in the library, whether it be copyrights, you know, connected to the Library of Congress. You know, I got this book by Kashif, which you better know about the music industry, you know. So I was going, you know, wherever I was living at whether it be New Orleans, Morgan City, I would go to the library and research in my craft. Was this after you got older?  Like how old was you when you did your time? I would say, I'm gonna say I did a whole, like years, I did a couple of months. Like my parents were in prison. So that didn't take me long to say this ain't the place. Hey, once the judge gave me the grace where I would say, God, use the judge to say, hey, get him up out of here. You know what I'm saying? God bless me in many ways. So I didn't have to do a whole bunch of time. Just enough for me to say, you know what? Nah, this ain't the route. And how old were you? I was about, I would say about 27. Oh, so you were older. 27, no, I would say no. Yeah, about 27, 26, something like that. Because at that time, a lot of stuff was happening economically to where they put a choke hold on us. And it created what you call a filtration system into what they call the prison industrial complex. I don't know if you are familiar with that, Chairman. Yeah, we actually was researching prisons last night. So I was telling about how many prisons was in Texas. Versus everywhere else. Texas got the most prisons. Texas has 94 prisons compared to, and I compared it to California. The reason being because California's a big state compared, you know, just like Texas is, California had 34 compared to us having 94. That's crazy. Texas is the second biggest state, what's the biggest state in the continental United States? That's crazy, though. We have the most prisons anywhere. Well, I'm just gonna say this much. The narrative that's going on right now in hip hop is another filtration system to that industry. Prison is an industry. Yes, it's a big business. It's a business, business.  And here you have to stir it up to make sure that you keep those prisons, you know, at a place where they can keep it at max capacity. Yeah, the doors are revolving.  Absolutely. That means stirring up the legal system. Absolutely. That means going out and figuring some things out to make it to where we can keep these facilities full.  See, a lot of people say we get, think that we get money from the government, but you got billionaires out here. You got people, how do they become billionaires? By, you know, insourcing and outsourcing. And that means cheap labor, free labor. Free labor. When I look over there at you and I think about all the stuff, Mr. Ice Cream Man, I keep saying that song because that was one of my favorites during that time. How did that even come about? You know, I want to jump right into that song. Like, Mr. Ice, how did you come up with it? How did y'all come up with it? Just explain to me how that whole process went. Shout out to Cubs, man.  He was a visionary. Okay. And P had this concept of the Ice Cream Man. You know, a lot of people want to say that, you know, where there was an actual beef between him and the loonies about who was the real Ice Cream Man and so on and so forth. I didn't know nothing about that prior to. But at the studio session, shout out to K. Lou, it was at K. Lou's studio session. And he caught the vibe, you know, it's like the vibe was infectious. He had the concept.  You know, I played some keys on that as well. So after I finished laying my keyboard part on there, I went to singing. And K. Lou said, go drop that. And that was it, you know what I'm saying? That's been going since, you know? Man, that's one thing about it, man. P, man, he had to be a special kind of leader to even, you know, have an ear for that type of sound or to go with what he felt like was his, because he had to go with his gut. When you're young, you got to go with what you feel. You got to go with what you think is going to be the right way, you know? Just the fact of all of those different songs, it makes you somewhat of a, like I told you on the phone, like I compare you to Nate Dogg when he come down. Yeah, yeah, yeah, because of the way that you, you know, the way that you hook in them, you know? The hooks, man, the way that you was doing your thing, man, you can't deny that that talent is there. And it's not a talent that everybody possess. I'll just say it like that. So you're blessed to be able to do that. God is great, man. I was just expressing myself the way I knew how, you know what I'm saying? And feeling those voice that I figured that, you know, I was on the vibe, you know, just had a vibe, catching the vibe. And when that vibe was felt, you know, Cubs would say, they should call me that a lot. Cubs could mean him Cubs. Y'all are cousins. So how are y'all cousins through the mom, dad, or what? Paternal side. Okay, okay, okay. His dad's dad. And my dad, they're brothers. Okay. With close kin. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, and so when you think about just you guys early on, we're gonna go back to those early stages when you went to, you end up going to LA, Richmond. Richmond, absolutely. When you ended up going to Richmond. Now keep going on listening. I just want to know how you ended up there. I know how Kale, when he first, when it was him serve on and Mia X, right? Well, the full stories in that book. Oh, really? Yeah, I got it. It's called Movedicapy 4, you know. I would say partial story because it's not a, that book Movedicapy is in a encyclopedic format. Oh, okay, you have to go research it. So the encyclopedia, if you know the encyclopedia format of encyclopedia, it's summarized stories. It's not like the full blown out story. So I got summarized stories in there. But that story, you know, happened here. Dallas? Yeah. Wow, that's hard.  Hey, that's crazy. God don't make no mistakes. And it happened, you know, me and my frat brothers, we were road tripping from Kansas. And two of my frat brothers were, you know, security there, got in there and got in there for free, ran across my cousin, you know, inadvertently didn't know that he was doing a promotional tour. And he spotted me, actually. And then, you know, we made that reunion type of thing, connection exchange numbers. Two weeks later, I was in, you know. Oh, that's awesome. Yeah, that's how that happened. Wow. You wanna talk? But at that time you weren't making, were you doing beats at that time? Oh, yeah. Okay. I had, see, I had previously before that, I had my own record label. Oh. I was partnering with my cousin, Mary Young. Okay.  And at that time, I was actually a church organist in Wichita, Kansas. So I always did music, so what I do. Right. You know what I'm saying? It's in the blood. Yes, it's what I do. So, was he doing music before you was rapping? You was doing the beats in the, so that was first. I had drum machine in the church before Kanye. Whoo-hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo. That's hard. Absolutely. That's hard, man. Yeah, I got witnesses for that. So when did y'all create Medicine Men? That was after the departure. When we departed, we departed No Limit. Okay. What made y'all leave? Well, it wasn't that much. But you know what? It was a disagreement. I was about to say. Disagreement. You keep saying it's in here, but you said it's a summary. So give me everything else that's not in the summary that's in here. That's not in there. Yeah, well, get him in there. It was, it was a disagreement. I was just gonna say this here. Things were happening prior to, and it just came to a head. Things, you have strife and all that within any family. Like I'm saying, P is my family, I love them to this day. You see what I'm saying? Well, you have internal strife that was going on. Things that weren't being. Communicated properly. That part. And that's what causes any disagreement. And there was a riff in the communication. And he, at that time, he was off doing this basketball thing, you know what I'm saying?  Right, I remember. He got two sons as beasts right now, right there. But, you know, he was just doing him. Right. And the line of communication got messed up and we, things weren't, you know, we weren't able to work it out. Right.  So medicine men, because when I look it up, I see medicine men in parentheses, but then I see beasts by the pound. So is it the same? Mine is Carlos. Okay, because I know when I counted how many people they say that was a part of Beats by the Pound, it was like seven people, but then when I asked him, he said, no, I thought it was like four or five people. It was four or five. See, the DJ Darrells. Right, I saw that. They were like honorary, because he did, you know. We can actually say PMC was honorary. Stop playing. Don't do that on my show. That's not, once you do that right there, and host this whole show, we'll stop. That's my dude. Let me tell you something about PMC, man. From a kid, every since I'm older than him, from the tell me something good, when it first jumped off, I've been rocking with this guy. So, yeah, that right there stops the whole show every time when Kale came, when he's a Leo Bobo, Mr. Lee, whoever, we gotta talk about that. You know what I'm saying, because listen, man, how this, I already did the background check on you, man, when players from the South Stack G's. Listen, hey, that song right there, that's one of the hardest songs, man. I told Silk, didn't I? I told Silk, I say, arguably, you had one of the better verses on that song for me. Yeah, if he was sleeping on Silk. Yeah, I just, a lot of people said that you, a lot of people say he can't rap. Because he rap off beat. Because he rap off beat. But I'm telling you on that song, and I played it on, you seen how when I interviewed, listen, of course I'm gonna go with PMC bars because it was just something about his swag.  And Silk was beat. See, you gotta look at Silk in his way. See, it's what your taste is.  Or people who do abstract art. I was just thinking about that. They can just put a little splash and some people are gonna see something from that. That's how Silk was with his word play and the way his flow was. He just wanted to be different. That was him. Silk is actually an intelligent guy, you know what I'm saying? All three of them are really brothers, very intelligent. You know what I'm saying? That's my blood, you know what I'm saying? So yeah, see I'm gonna tell you what, I had some of the better sections with Silk. From, you know, if I don't gotta, you know what I'm saying? That right there, you know, that was very fun and very interesting to see him do what he do. You know what I'm saying? So yeah, I had to stop an interview one time. It was in Atlanta. Somebody was trying to go off on my cuffs, you know what I'm saying? And say some negative things about him. I stopped the whole interview. I said, man, look, you ain't about to talk to my cuffs by my cuffs, I'm his cousin.  You know what I'm saying? But Silk was dope. So I really appreciate it, Silk. Man, I think, like I said, that's why I went and interviewed him because I like him, you know what I mean? Like, I thought, you know, he was a younger dude during that time. And so to me, with him being a younger guy, the next generation always carried a vision for me. You know, when you look at history and the way things unfold. So I already know, and something he said in that interview, he said, if Drake would have been rhyming some of the things he said, they looked at it as the ones who don't like him would look at him as great because it's just the way people are. And I agree with him on that, you know what I mean? Cause you got to, you pretty much, you have to see what you're giving out. You have to convince it's the way you bring it. And I think, like I said, for that time, his confidence level, even the Hot Boys movie, when you look at his acting and all that, I probably would have used it, but when you see the Hot Boys movie and all that stuff happening. Some of the, our Hot Boys movie, you know what, when that came out, I never saw it. Really? I never saw it. We were working. We didn't stop. I noticed that when I looked it up, y'all did so many records. No, I saw something like between 95 and 99, y'all had over 30 million records? No, it wasn't. It was sold. Sold. Yeah, and it was accumulating that, you know. Right. And now we're in the digital world, so, you know. Yeah. Yeah, we were working, we never stopped. It was like a five years, like, oh man, it was a blur. We never stopped, you know what I'm saying? We were the engine to that tank. You know what I'm saying? Before any vehicle to move properly, you got to have the engine. And it has to be fine tune, it's gotta be, have proper maintenance and all that type of stuff. So we were that engine, you know what I'm saying? But do you realize how much y'all affected other rappers? Because just like in anything that you do in nature, if in a career, if you push hard and you're pushing like the way y'all are doing, all you do is make other people push us as hard. If y'all didn't do what y'all were doing, they wouldn't be pushing us hard. Well, I gotta get credit where credit is due. It was Peter, you know, he was a driving force. Like, he never stopped, he hardly ever sleep. So it was like, we went from, we were working on several projects at one time. Like he said earlier, there were revolving doors of artists from the mystical, from the sea murders, from the fiends, the mere exes, Cain and Nables, Mack, he just didn't stop. So it applied to a talent like that. And we had due dates that were posted on the wall. And we had to meet those due dates. Where did he get that drive from? You're his cousin. You knew him, you know, since he was little, right? Where did he get that drive from? Well, he come from the Caldeo Projects. Right. You know what I'm saying? And I'm gonna use the, I think it's still a post made the song called Sense of Purpose. I think it was still, still a post. Maybe third world, but I think it's still a post. But they had a song called Sense of Purpose. He had a sense of purpose. He didn't wanna go back. I ain't trying to go back to that. I don't wanna subject my children to that. Right.   He wanted to supersede that because I think they doubted him. But then by, you know, when he got us, when he had first meeting Kale or the weather, I think he had met Kale before he had ran into me out here. And Kale was, you know, still a DJ. But, you know, me and Kale wound up in California. And we heard the other guys' beats and stuff like Craig B and Odell, Carlos was already doing business with him. When he figured he had that sound, he had something that could support, you know, his identity. So, because before us, he was doing a lot of Bay Area stuff for you. You know, you go back to his earlier albums and it didn't do it quite like, had quite the same effect as to when we came to the table. Right. So that really changed the game right there. In the Beats by the Pound group, who would you say, because when you have a group, everybody has their specific talent that they offer to the group. What would you say your talent was or what was it specifically that you did for the group to enhance the group? I was multi-dimensional. Okay, not only did I do beats, I sang. Songwriter, you know, living songwriter. So I bought that aspect as well.  Cause I heard you were like the hook man. That's what I'm saying. I am the hook Smith. You know what I'm saying? You know what I'm saying?  You know what I'm saying? And that's where a lot of, you know, the, should I say the content came from certain hooks that I did. You know what I'm saying? He had some himself as well. But when I came with the hooks, you know, that is where it was. So I think by me being multi-dimensional, multi-talented, I think that was, you know, and I could just play whatever genre, you know what I'm saying? Whatever it is by me being a true musician. So I bought musicianship too. When you think back to King George and all those days, the early on days, even when we talked to Silk, we talked about Kevin Miller, their brother that passed away because the early on that was a campaign that basically the RIP, Kevin Miller, you know, that was the thing because I thought that they had left after he passed away, but they say, Silk say they was in Richmond already when he passed, when he got killed. Could you just give me your spiel on Kevin Miller and just basically, did you hear about it? You was relative, so of course you heard about it. Well, I can say this much about Kevin. When Percy went to play ball at U of H, he was in Houston playing ball out there. It's like Kevin stayed at home. I think he was playing ball at Southern University of New Orleans soon though. And we were close. Like I would come from Morgan City and go to the Cali, you know, and visit my cousins.  So, but I was there, I was going to soon on myself. You know, and when I would go to school, sometime I would get off and all or if I was at another school, nickel state, I was going to nickel state as well. So I would go sometime on the weekends to go with my fraternity brothers and then I would stop in the Calio. Percy was, he was already in Houston going to your vage, but I left Kevin in the Calio. I mean, Kevin used to hang out all the time. We used to kick it and, you know, do cousin things. So, Kevin was a real serious person. He had jokes, you know what I'm saying? He would put him in, I would say, peas, they did about a year apart, you know what I'm saying? So he was peas, you know, other side.  This dude had a savvy about him. He had a charisma about him. And just, I'm just going to say I miss him, man. Cause the more I talk about him, you know what I'm saying? The more emotionally I get, I remember when I got, when I called, I got to share this moment. I call the Calio. Call his house that he was staying with and he was staying there. And his uncle answered the phone, his uncle Anthony. And I asked for Kevin and his uncle said, my name is Raymond, you know, it's my real name, Raymond, you say Raymond, this Raymond? I said, yeah, this Raymond. He said, you ain't hear about it? He said, Kevin died. I said, what? How, where, who, what, when, what? I said, man, Kevin got killed.   And, you know, I'll never forget that when I called looking for him. And when I got the news from his uncle, wait at the house that he was staying at, and he had passed away. And then a couple of weeks later, well a week later, we went into the funeral. That's when I saw a person, that's a Romeo was a little boy. Yeah, Romeo was holding, he was holding, he was holding Romeo in his hand. You know what I'm saying?  He was tough, man, and P, you know, he was looking at his brother, and he told Romeo, there'll be the thing, Romeo had been about two or something like that.  Like, it was crazy, man, so yeah, man, so that's my family, man, you know, real tough. Rest in peace, Kevin Miller, man. I just used to hear P when he say, Kevin Miller, he would say that on song so much, and I loved his music so much that I would always, at every interview, I always ask that question, because his method early on during that time when he was putting the music out was to keep his brother's name alive. He was gonna make people do worse. He was gonna make him feel Kevin Miller, and I was one of those guys that caught that, and I caught it, and since I've been doing this show, and since I've been dealing with y'all, I always ask that question. Silk just gave me his spiel. Silk told me how he would look out for him and stuff. So I always remember, you remember still talking about it, and that's what make us who we are, because I remember those spots because I lost my uncle, my daddy's brother. When he was 13, he was dead, and I went and found him when he was dead.  And I always think about being young and dying young, and just those things that I went through, losing friends, and losing friends that I was hustling in the streets with. So I know this is real, and I know already those people that I'm talking about now always wanna keep their names alive. Family relatives, you know we found those letters in my dad's house of people who had passed, but wrote letters to one another. So stuff like that just touched my heart. So the Kevin Miller thing, it'll always be on this show. Like I do PMC the same way, I'll always do that. Do you feel that when you lose people like that, like you talking about finding someone that, not everybody experienced something like that, do you feel like that affects you mentally, even as years go by sometimes? When you're younger, you don't think subconsciously it might, but as you get older, you learn to realize certain things. Oh, that's why that affected me. You know what I mean? So do you think that you were affected by seeing something like that? I don't really, I was tough, man. I seen a lot of deaths. I seen a lot of deaths. I seen a lot of dying. I lived in the projects in Vegas. You would see diggers die, I was young. My daddy got shot in the head when I was a kid in the gambling shack, the same place. Oh, he lived? Yeah, he lived. And used to keep the bullet in his pocket. And my other, his brother died, got killed in that same gambling shack. And my other uncle, he burnt that shack down. But it's like, always remember these stories and then coming up, seeing people get shot, seeing people get killed, that was a part of life. So I just, you start becoming numb to it. Being a part of it, when the 90s, when the drugs hit the scene, you start being a part of it if you're in the streets. So now you used to seeing people get killed. You now seeing it and it don't affect you and you cool with death. When you turn 35 on up, you go to a lot of funerals. Oh yeah. You see what I'm saying? Yeah. But through it all, you start to understand that this is a process in life, right? So I don't think it affects you if you're a person that deal with it a lot. Just like going working at the funeral home, right? It's the same thing. But then exactly what comes to mind when you're talking and you're saying how you see it so much that you become numb to it, I think about in the military, how when they're overseas and they have to go through killing and all of that, and they see it, they become numb to it. But when they come back here, that's not now their normal life. So they now have to readjust to certain things and it causes problems. To some people, some people that don't, the guy that be with us, our security, he's not affected like that. So it becomes a mind thing. It's like in the military. Like in the theater of war, especially like in Vietnam, there's a death around them all the time. So it's like a condition. It's a mental condition. So in psychology, it's just such a thing. There's terminology that they call classical conditioning. Okay. You know what I'm saying? So when you see things so much like you say, you become desensitized to it. Just like this generation right now through these video games to the- Didn't know. Everything. The video games and also the narrative that's being pushed right now. Yeah. It's a deaf culture going on right now. And when these kids play these games, the shooting games, the grand theft photos, you know what I'm saying? Now you got a lot of kids jacking, they're breaking in cars now. Correct. It's a big nationwide epidemic going on right now. And you know, I wanna ask you about, I'm gonna go back to PMC and that, playing from the South Stack G's.  Got to get that. When y'all came up with this, and even the down South hustler, thank you for getting them on that track. I know all this stuff, you like me, you locked in the bun in PMC, that UGK movement. But how did that song end up even happening? Could you explain that to me? Which one? Playing from the South Stack G's. Well, I had already did work with them prior too. Okay.  You know what I'm saying? You know, I was out of town saying, hey man, you take it over, you do it. You do your thing with it. But I told him if you ever need me, you know what I'm saying? Just call me. Okay. You know what I'm saying? And that was one of the times when he called me, he had already built a relationship with them. You know what I'm saying? And when I met them, you know, we had a vibe. And then that transferred to me introducing them to my cousin, to Percy, to P. And they flew him out to California. We got a vibe. I started doing my thing on the keyboard.   He knew the, he done music too. Beat machines and stuff like that. Did you ever see him do his stuff? Absolutely. We did it together. What was the type of beat machine did you see him work with? R8, Rollin' R8. He did work with a Rollin' R8. He would call with it. Call with it. What sticks out to you about Pimp C and that R8? What was it? He just knew it. He just did things with it that nobody else did with it. His, the way he programmed it, his high hats, you know what I'm saying? You know, he had his thing. He was a musician as well. And he just put his own, his own sauce on it. You know what I'm saying? That's the best way I could explain it. You know what I'm saying? And I got some more in there that I'll talk about on that particular song. Oh yeah. Oh yeah, it's in there. That's how hard it is. But the thing I say about this dude, man, he had a passion. Like we had a Kendrick passion for music, for the same type of music from Soul. You know what I'm saying? He would like to go back to the, he was a big Ashley Brothers. Yeah man. You know what I'm saying? Organs is another thing. But then he had some punching kicks that's on that guy. That's one thing Rollin' known for is the kick drums that he always, that's where the whole terminology 808 come from. A lot of people think that the 808 is a drum, but 808, TR 808, the rhythm 808 is actually a machine. So not only the kick comes from it, the snare, the hi-hats, the clavez, the cowbell, a lot of stuff comes from that machine. But Rollin' also made that R8 and he knew what to do with it. When the beat goes dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun. Dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun. Who was that doing that? That brought me in here. That brought me in here. Because what he did, he took what I did and made it do that. It's like chopping it, like before chopping and screwing. He did it on an actual machine. Because that wasn't the only thing he had. It was also a keyboard that I was playing called an OnSonic. Okay. You know what I'm saying? And I forgot what my other thing was a T3, something like that. And what I played, he took it and freaked it. Yeah, cause he go. Duh, it kind of, it kind of builds up. That's me playing that part. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. Man! So he, you know, he, that's when he heard me play that, he was like, yeah. So then he even did his thing and do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do. Yeah! You know what I'm saying? So yeah, he freaked it. Man, and, and, and Bun B come to things live and die, really. Man, that thing, man. Listen, man, that's one of my favorite songs, man. What? Man, that thing was so nice, man. I know already, man, that was, that was different, man. That right there, really, you know, I didn't go by the chart thing and all that really, cause I knew already how they looked at the South. A sound that you guys created. That's another thing we've got to get into before I get you out of here. Just how that sound y'all created was in a time when it wasn't respect, it wasn't, it wasn't respected, I'm gonna say it. It wasn't respected on the level that I think it should have been. They didn't, they lived it as not hip hop. Correct. And that's when, you know, I don't know if you remember Pimp C said. What? Don't even play. He said, this ain't no hip hop. It's country rap, too. It's country rap, too. You heard me? Yeah! You know what I'm saying? So I was riding with him with that. You was riding with him? Yeah.  You hear me? Yeah. We ain't give Bun a say there. So, you know, when we came and did our thing, which could you gotta know, everything came from the South. Everything? Everything. Memphis had its blues, you know what I'm saying? Even country come from the South. Everything, you know? So when we finally made our entry in it, like even the song that they were sampling back in the days, were old New Orleans records, you know what I'm saying? Oh, you know, Jane Brown. Jane Brown got his funk from New Orleans, something saying after the funk and drummer, you know?  Wow.   And when I think about just the stuff that you bring to the table, you know, without you, that Down South hustlers, Bun B and UGK, they don't end up on there. What about the Dayton family? Dayton family, I never met those guys. You never met those guys? How many people, this project, cause even C was on there, big court, you know? Like, like, how many people, this was a, it was a double cassette. That was P, bro. It was a double cassette, man. He said, you wanna get on it? Come on, get on it. See, P was, you know, he was a dude like, you know, a man, I think he felt that the South and the Midwest because they were, you know, Midwest ride with us too, because we were next door neighbors. And people who didn't have an opportunity for exposure, he just gave him that opportunity to say, you wanna get on this? Same thing he did with West Coast bad boys. He just was like that, putting people on, you know? Man, let me ask you about C murder. That's your cousin. And he gets locked up. Free C murder. Free C murder. How tough is that being? I know it's tough, cause I got relatively locked up. How tough is that being, seeing him go through what he had to face? Well, of course, that's my cousin in real tough to see that, you know what I'm saying? Me and C, now we had an old relationship too. That dude right there, man, like he used to keep, you know, he was like the jester, man.  Brilliant, brilliant jokes, you know what I'm saying? And to not have that arraignment or more. And then how much he love his family, you know what I'm saying? How much he love his kids. For him to be taken away from his kids is, you know, that's tough. And not only tough on him, it's tough on those kids as well. A lot of people say he was the hardest lyricist, hardest rapper that came from no limit. One of them. I'm just telling you what people have hit me up with.  You know what I'm saying? Real tough.   Woo, that's a hard one there. You know what I'm saying? He came with that. And the thing is, see, I actually could rap. You know what I'm saying? You know what I'm saying? Out of the Miller brothers, I would say he my favorite. When he comes to rap? Yeah, he my favorite. Why? Because his whole method, his style, his voice, so he had a heck of a voice. You know, he had that baritone voice. So he was very dark, you know, kind of sinister. You know what I'm saying? But he just, in his wordplay, you know what I'm saying? You know, when I had a conversation with Steve, you know, at first he wouldn't take a rap that serious. You know, Steve was always a go getter.  And I had to sit down and cuddle. One time I said, cuddle, man. But you need to do this, bro. You plan with it. He wouldn't mess with it at first. What I'm saying? He was doing it because he was on the earlier TRU stuff. He was. You know what I'm saying? He was doing it, but he wouldn't, you know, fully engage like I figured he could have been. I just sat down, cussing and cuddling and said, cuss, bro, you can do this, bro. You know what I'm saying? And then you see, you know, he put his mind to whatever he put his mind to use, you know, me and him played chess too. You know, he's like. Oh yeah? Yeah, he a thinker. He called me slipping. He called me slipping. And you know, so like I'm saying, he was a thinker, a critical thinker. And whatever he put his mind to, he excelled at it, you know what I'm saying? So I miss my cuddling, freestyling. Freestyling murder, man. You wanted to say something? Where can people buy your book? The book could be found on the one Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Walmart, Booksandmillion.com for right now. So you just get it from any one of those. And what motivated you to write this book? Well, my cousin, Renea, on the maternal side, he came to me one day and said, well, have you ever thought about doing a book? And I had it because of my mind, I'm just straight in the beats and writing songs. You know what I'm saying? I was into that. I'm still into it, but he said, man, when you experience your expertise, and you got a story, man.  You got a story, man.  You need to do a book, you know? And I heard him, you know what I'm saying? But I wasn't listening to that. I was about to say, how long did it take you from the moment he said that, till you actually did it? I actually did it. He told me that somewhere around like about 2016, 2015. He made the suggestion to me, shout out to Rainier Livers. That's my birthday, cut him. We shared the same birthday that before the July. Oh, your celebration, baby. Absolutely. But then he, you know, I said, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I was just still, like I'm saying, I was in my beat zone. I'm trying to put out more projects, post no limit. And then I started thinking about doing a documentary. And that didn't, you know, come to fruition. You know what I'm saying? And we tried to beat by the palm documentary. It didn't come to fruition. So I'd say, you know what? Let me do more research on this. And I did more research. And come to find out all your greatest movies. Started out in a book. Just started out in a book. Exactly. You know what I'm saying? So I'd say, you know what? But even before then I had started, I would say like about after he made the suggestion, I started about three years after. Three years after? Okay. And when like I'm saying back to me doing a documentary, and I did my research and looked at all the like comic books and DC comics and the Stephen Kings, you know what I'm saying? The Harry Potter and all this stuff. They were all books. Years before.  You know what I'm saying? So when is the documentary coming? Cause I know that for the main fact that you did this, you know, you went ahead and did this first because that didn't work out. I know the documentary is still coming. Oh, it's definitely still coming. So I'm just gonna let God do that. You know what I'm saying? Like hopefully an adaptation comes from, like I'm saying this in an encyclopedia of formats or any portion of that could be made into an adaptation or a documentary or whatever, you know? But I just say, well, look, cause I had a stroke. What? Yeah. I had a stroke to, well, 2020. That's recently. I took 2020, yeah. I had, I'm both left here. God bless you. You look good man. You look good man. You can't even tell. What was your symptoms? Well, how did you know you were having a stroke? At first I thought it was vertigo, just vertigo. I thought it was the things that came with age, you know what I'm saying? Because I'm in my upper 50s. I'm closer to 60s than what I am to 50s. I'll praise you the most high ground. Thank God. So I had those symptoms of vertigo then they started, I went and got treated for vertigo. So they didn't even check it to know that it wasn't that? No, cause that's what I told them. The doctors don't wanna go on what you tell them. Oh, I can't stand that. So I went on, so you know, I got one test, you know, a couple of test blood and all that type of stuff. And then they gave me a CAT scan. I didn't do MRI, same. But after I got that, the CAT scan, the first time I went to the doctor because I had several episodes of vertigo. Because when I had the first episode, I'm like, man, something's going on, what's happening? So I did my research, like I said, my research. I researched the symptoms and it said vertigo. So you actually had vertigo as well? Vertigo is a byproduct, it's a symptom of stroke. Oh, a stroke? No, I thought it was vertigo, was many strokes, little strokes that would lead enough to the big one. So how many strokes did you have, many? I think about three or four. And it was spread out in two weeks interval. That's what I was. Then it went into weeks and days. You were stressed? Yeah, I think it was. I think, and also it's the accumulation of, you know, serious events that happened in life, stuff that I had on my mind for a long time. Yeah. It was, you know, on top of that, I was binging on shrimp, not knowing that shrimp, you know. What does it do? It's the highest source of cholesterol, bad cholesterol. Really?  Yeah. PMC, like I'm saying, we're like brothers. You know what I'm saying, bumby. So I used to eat a whole, like bags of pound of shrimp. Peppered shrimp? Boiled shrimp. Boiled shrimp, okay. Boiled shrimp, you know what I'm saying, with potatoes and corn and all that type. We talking about cholesterol and all kind of bad stuff in that. I'm thinking I'm eating good. You know what I'm saying? So when he said I eat so many shrimp, I got iodine poison, you get that from me. Cause I used to tell him, he say, damn, Dickie. You know, cause that's the terminology down, you know, South, like from Port Arthur, like the I-10 corridor, Highway 90. Yeah. Old Spanish Trail. And that sea and that area, and that body of water is a lot of shrimp. Yeah. He said, my mom used to say, you know what I'm saying? Hey boy, you keep eating that shrimp, so many shrimp, you're going to catch iodine poisoning. So when I was, he said, man, Dick, why you eat so many shrimp? I said, man, I'm trying to catch iodine poisoning. Wow. You know what I'm saying? Man. Get that from me. That's crazy, man. I would never guess that, man. Thank you so much, man. The history is, hey man, it's something else, man. When you, boss told me to ask y'all this. I talked to y'all, boss asked him, man, what did boss mean to no limit, man? When it comes to boss. Boss? I don't first say this. Boss is a true, and is a true connoisseur. Shout out to boss, man. Shout out to boss, man. Love that dude. True connoisseur of music. True connoisseur. True connoisseur of music. And a businessman of, you know what I'm saying? So he was P's right brain. Cause they were in school together, you know, from elementary and stuff like that.  Boss would tell him how he felt about it, and then P would go with it. You know what I'm saying? Sometimes they would have disagreements, you know, like any friends or brothers, you know what I'm saying?  That just to make sense, you know what I'm saying? Not saying that anybody was emulating anyone, but just to make it, you know. Make it make sense, make it fit. Let me ask you this, man. See, big court, how did he, when you seen him rapping and dealing with his thing, being an outside guy from Kansas, I don't know why you hanging in Wichita, but anyway, just how, what did you think of his style of rapping, who he was as a person as it became the no-limit team? He was dope, man. They came in his group called CCG. Correct. When I first met him, you know what I'm saying? He was just cool, you know what I'm saying? Just like he is now, you know what I'm saying? Really? Great, great person, man, great heart, you know what I'm saying? He wouldn't always that big. That big. He swooned, when I saw him next time, I say, boy, you think I swore, you know, I saw him in the videos and stuff later in the kind of find out, because he used to have the mask on at first. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? I find out, like, through the grapevine, you know that's cool, right? You know that's cool. And when I saw him at the no-limit, we did a show for the, like a reunion show for the Essence Fest in 2017. And it was like when we saw each other, you know? Well, you know, from day one, he always been a real, real good dude. And I understand guys from Kansas City, for me, you know, living in Wichita. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I used to live in Ogden. Stop playing, man. Yes, indeed, yes, indeed. I was over there before Riley. Oh yeah, so you were in the military? No, I wasn't in the military, but my family was, so I had to be there. But we could, we used to always go, right? Because that's not too far from the state. Manhattan, too. Yeah, we used to always go there, you know what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah, that's hard, man. Let me ask you, I gotta ask you about Mac. I'm not gonna let you go to ask you about these two people, Mac and Meal. So I gotta ask you about Mac. When Mac was early on, we interviewed Mac when he came home. This dude, man, went through so much, but he still was so humble, and he still was so forgiven, and he still was such a pure spirit, dealing with this guy that you didn't sense anger or hate toward any situation that had became him. Just who was he to you when he left, before he left? When he comes home, explain Mac to me. Man, the first thing I'm gonna say, intelligent, prolific, intelligent, prolific, humble, good just all around a good person. And like I said, the apple don't fall too far from the tree because it's his mama, Miss Sheila, his big Mac, his daddy, just good people, man. Real talk, you just come from good pedigree. Wow. You know what I'm saying? So, you know, Mac is just genuinely, when you see him, that's what it is. So, we all knew when he caught that charge that that wasn't him. No, man, y'all got the wrong dude, but, man, you know, come on, bro, not Mac. You know what I'm saying? He, when he came up with the word camouflage assassin, I mean, he was a real MC. I was assassinating motherfucking on his mic. Yeah, he loved.  You know what I'm saying? So, his flow, his choice of words, it just, I mean, to have him on the tank was just a blessing. Like, we got us, you know what I'm saying? We got us a MC. Now, not taking anything away from the other one, you know what I'm saying? But we got a dude who's resting and he's oozing hip-hop. See, we had a hip-hop artist. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah. A real hip-hop artist. The other one was gonna, with Mia, let's go with Mia. Let me take a quick shot. Go ahead. I wanna ask you about Mac coming home and when you heard he was coming home, kind of how, and we're going to Mia, but how he, where were you at? What did you think?  I haven't seen him. I haven't seen him actually. You haven't even seen him? I haven't seen him. Wow! We talked. You talked. Okay. We talked. But you hadn't seen him. I haven't seen him. You know, I'm still looking forward to doing it. Because you was up in, you been in, where you at, that's kind of far. So, when are you going back to New Orleans? Well, I would say later on this week. There you go. Hopefully. Hopefully. Because he be moving around. You know, he doing video. I see, last time we was there, he was doing a video with Fiend and he moving around. He doing this thing right now. Yeah, man. When he got out there, it was like, man, by time, man. Yeah, yeah. By time, you know, these people saw that this y'all had the wrong guy the whole time. But he kept his composure.  But for him to get out, just like a big, man, it's a big celebration. Man, ain't it a big celebration, man? I was so happy to talk with him. He talked about Scarface.  He been on Beehive. He been on, he been on mine. You know, this guy, man, just love Mac, man. Just happened to embrace him and show him that we are all happy to see him home and we believe in him. Oh, yeah. Shout out to Beehive too, as my dude. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'd never got to meet him. He followed me on IG. I followed him back by. I need to interview each other. That'd be hard, right? Interview him and he need to interview y'all. That'd be hard, man. You said you didn't do that. You heard it on Beehive. Beehive, man. I said it. Let me ask you this. Me or X, man? Me or X, we shout out to Sherrani at Peaches where we interviewed Mac and interviewed K.L. and interviewed Sherrani. Okay. What's up with me or X, man? I got to get her in. She said, she coming on Boss Talks. She already counted and committed to it down the line whenever she get ready to pop out. You know, she got her product, man. You know, she got her cookbook and all that. The cookbook or seasoning. She got to come on Boss Talk, man. You know what I'm saying? So, me or man, that's my sister, man. That's all. You know what I'm saying? We, you know, in the early days, we had a clique between me, her, Sirvon and KLC. We called it three niggas in the broad. We were all... I heard about that. Yeah, that's us. Yeah. Three niggas in the broad. You know what I'm saying? So that's my sister, man. Like, I mean, for her to live amongst men like that, still be a lady, you know what I'm saying?  Amongst, you know what I'm saying? I mean, class act. Class, class act. I love Mia. I love her kids, you know what I'm saying? Mia and her little system in too many commences. Nothing like it. In too many commences with her. But she would just, she was the nurturing spirit, man. Just very nurturing, you know what I'm saying? Mama Mia. You know what I'm saying? Sirvon said, she was like, you knew to get it together when you come around Mia.  She wasn't playing no games. None, man. And to be a female in the whole long, during that time when you didn't have many female, you know, hip hop or especially from the South. That was hard, man. That was hard, man. I think that's it. Is there any other albums we can expect from you, down the line? Yeah, I'll be putting one out here real soon. When? I would say between the next month or two. Okay. Yeah. So right now my focus is the movie. The book. Of course, of course. You know what I'm saying? So I'm gonna be on a hardcore campaign for that and I'm gonna follow that up with this next project which I feel is like right now the title of it right now is a top secret right now. I was trying to see if you were gonna let that top secret go. But the thing is now, that's that work, bro. Wow. That's that work, I'm telling you. Is there any youngsters we can expect on the project? Because you know with the newer generation, is there anybody you collab with or worked with for this new project? I'm glad you had great questions. I'm glad you asked that question because I'm about to say it. No features. Mm. Just the only project I ever did. With no features. No features. Why? Because I figure I just want to just. I want to do one for everybody. I'm gonna love it. I just want to just express myself. You know what I'm saying? I never did none like that. I was always a feature. Right. You know what I'm saying? I was always a hook smith or whatever. Mm-hmm. But I never did one just me holding mine. Ooh, I can't wait. I can't wait just to see. I'm gonna love it, man. So I'm doing it all itself for just the production. I got production from other people. You know what I'm saying? K.L. only production? Not yet. Okay. My boy right there. What do you think when you think about K.L., man? K.L. is my boy. Beast. Beast. Beast. Beast. That's my dude. We both cancers, too. Oh, yeah? Yeah. So, man, I'm gonna tell you what the first time I heard about it. Yeah. Yeah. Let's talk about it. I'll say something wrong with this dude, right? Something wrong with it. Well, why? Where is he from Neptune? Where is he from? It was different, wasn't it? He's from another galaxy.  You know, a lot of people don't know he's a B-boy, too. You know, he's a great dancer, to be honest. We all really challenge each other. He talk about that every time. Yeah, we challenge each other in here. Cause I- What? Did he get down? What? I know I could spin. I could use to. I could still spin, I think. So, and I don't know if I could, I definitely couldn't do that. No, it's one move I ain't gonna be able to do. No, no, no, it's a second one. I can remember, man, you better hurt yourself now at this age. He embodies all the elements of hip-hop, of B-boy, you know, from tagging. Yeah. You know, to breakdancing, to DJing, MCing. He embodies it. And the thing about it, he takes his craft real serious. He's very meticulous, you know what I'm saying? And he's, you know, he's none like him, man. I mean, we still hear that down for my niggas. Yeah, it ain't went on, man. You know what I'm saying? The move basically gets out the way, you know what I'm saying? Man, I'm telling you, it's K.L., man. Man, that boy go crazy, man. It's K.L. He tell me his PMPC story, man, that one that they did together too, man. Break him off some. They break him up? No, no they're not. That's you? No, that's me and PMPC. That wasn't break him off, it wasn't break. I think that's the one me and him talking about. No, you tell him about, you might be talking about kick dough. Kick dough, that's what it was. Bro, break him off some, was you and PMPC? Yeah, me and PMPC. Now you gotta give me that story. I did, because we did kick, he did, the kick dough was the one me and him talked about. The game, that was it. Break him off some, let's go for it, you get off here, cause you feel to get off here. Break him off some. Break him off some is like a continuation of Play From The South. Really? You know, people like, hey, man, we gotta have another one of them from you and PMPC.  Dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun. He already see the bulk of that beat was him. That was PMPC? You know, from the drums, the organ, the bass, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, that was PMPC. You know what I'm saying? When I came with the, ooh, that was me. That was you. And the chords from the roads, you know what I'm saying? So that was me. How long did it take y'all to do that whole thing? Well, and it take a long, cause you know, when I came in, when they, you know, we actually did that one in Port Arthur. Y'all did that one in Port Arthur? We did that one in Port Arthur at PMP and Bunhouse. You know what I'm saying? That was the one that he talked about getting in the bathtub to make, isolate the sound? No, no, no, no, no, no, that wasn't one there. Cause they tell you they put, they put something in the, you remember that? That was Boss who said that. Boss was saying that it might've been an early one when they first done it, huh? Yeah, I was there. I helped me to beat. You helped me to beat. At that PMP house? At PMP house. Yeah, yeah. You know what I'm saying? I did that, you know what I'm saying? I heard Bob saying, I was there one of the ones who did the beat. You know what I'm saying? Wow.  You always in the midst, man. Yeah. Always. You know, God is great, man. Just God gave me some great opportunities, man, to be around some great people to make history with. You know what I'm saying? Like, I mean, it was just a ride like no other, man. So I'm grateful for all of them. You should be very proud. Thank you so much, man. Appreciate it. Now man, you blessed me, man. Like I said, all these years, when I get to see y'all, the ones I really, really listen to y'all music and I was going down the street or something and they were telling me what I was doing because I probably wasn't doing anything. You only want, boy, God made it. God is good. That's all I can tell you. I made it home. You know what I'm saying? But it was a lot of days and nights that that music got me through, bro. A lot of days and nights that music got me through. Thank God we were able to be instrumental in that. You know what I'm saying? And not only just, no limit was a machine. It was more than just a talent, but like I'm saying, you had the bosses and the peas who was able to rest in peace to Vesta Scott. Okay. And was able to make sure it was packaged properly and brought to the rest of where they did the business on it, you know what I'm saying? So it wouldn't have been done without those people. Man, thank you so much for coming on the show. Top three artists, producers of all time, did our lives. This here, top three. Did our lives? Did our lives. Quincy Jones. Quincy Jones, number one, or no water. Barry Gordy. Barry Gordy. Uh, McFan and Whitehead. McFan and Whitehead, sir. Well, you're a bad boy, man. See, CK took a long time trying to figure that out here. I had to listen to the call. Oh yeah, well, he's got to give it to me, man. Thank you so much, man. How can people get a hold of you if they trying to reach out? Well, on social media, all my social media is Moby Dick official. M-O-B-No-Y. D-I-C-K, official. Man. Well, add that on all of them, IG. And on Facebook, it's just Moby Dick, M-O-Space-B.D-I-C-K. Man, thank you so much. Did you get everything out? Yes, sir. Man, I'm gonna tell you something, man. Thank you so much. We love you, brother. Love you all, man. And let me tell you something, man. In time, you're in Texas, man. As long as I'm here and these bills getting paid, listen, man, you always welcome to come here if you're trying to show somebody something or put something out into the air, atmosphere. God bless us to have a platform here. You always welcome to come here, man. Absolutely, man. Appreciate y'all for having us, man. Man, we love y'all, bro. What y'all do Cat Daddy to? That's my boy. Cat Daddy here in Texas, he called me one day. He might call me again now. He called me on the phone one day probably about three months ago. Absolutely. He probably coming on the show. I ain't seen him. He both called me back. He said, this Cat Daddy. I said, what? Yeah, he is. Ask him who gave him that Cat Daddy make it stop. Ask him who turned him on to that. Man, check it, man. Hey, man, make sure you got a like and subscribe, man. It's been another great segment, man.  And we out. Man.


Welcome. It's the 11th of April. This is the Jenkins Project in Sheikot, Africa, Contributon. First session to get started on Jenkins Inclusive Naming Project. Thanks for being here. We're being recorded. A copy of the recording will be available in about 24 hours through community.Jenkins.io. So peace and Catherine, welcome. Thank you, Mark. So what I think we should go through today, what I'd propose anyway is let's talk through the tasks and let you ask any questions you may have about the tasks or, or hey, how are we going to approach it? What I'm working from is this document. I'll paste a link to this document into our chat channel. It's available in that folder that I already shared with you and is also available mentioned in the Slack channel. So this talks about the initial tasks and what I'll use is I'll use this document acts as a place for our notes for this session. And we'll then discuss and talk through what questions you may have and we'll answer them and take notes in the document. Does that work for the two of you? Yes, it does. Okay, great. So let's start with the sort of high level picture. There are a number of places in Jenkins where as a 15 year old project, it uses some terminology that is not as inclusive as we'd like it to be. What we've done is been through the effort to identify what the replacement should be and how to make those changes. So the term master, for instance, is being replaced by controller. The term slave is being replaced by agent. The term white list is being replaced by allow or allow list in phrasing. The term blacklist is being replaced by deny or disallow. Those are the terminology corrections we want to make. There are many, many, many places where we have to make those corrections. So Jenkins is a system of, well, of a core component that is already quite a large component. And then if we look at plugins and just browse them, you'll see 1,800 plugins in Jenkins, and there may be terminology mistakes in any one of these plugins. So we want to be to be able to correct those mistakes, actually submit pull requests to correct those mistakes to as many as we reasonably can in the project, we know we won't get through all of them. We know that the top four or 500 of these plugins are the most interesting to Jenkins users in general. And therefore, will it will approach those first. And when I say top what I really mean is number of installation so if we look here, this right now let's search, let's sort by most installed. And you'll see that there are 308,000 installations of the script security plugin so 308,000 controllers in the world that use this plugin. If there's a terminology mistake in it, fixing it in this one plugin can fix it in 308,000 installations so it's a nice nice way to have a big impact very quickly. Excuse Mark, can you zoom your screen a little if I can't see it. Sure can is that better. Yes, yes. Let's see so is that is that is that workable piece. Yes, yes, it's okay now. Great. Excellent. Thank you. Thanks for the reminder. So, so what we see here is there are, there are many many plugins that need to be checked to see if they have an issue with the terminology. Now in addition to the many plugins there are each Jenkins plugin includes several different forms of content. So, they are Java source code. There are HTML files that are used for help. And there can be property files that are used for strings or jelly files that's j e l l y jelly files that are used to define the user interface. And there can be terminology mistakes in each of those three places with different changes needed in each so it needs a little bit of thought and some programming skill to decide how to make the changes and which things to change and which not to change. So inclusive naming actually is a hybrid of a change text and think about programming and do programming experiments to be sure that that's the right thing to do. So we'll need both your skill as identifying things and your ability as a developer you'll need to do some compilation and run compile things and see that they work. Any questions so far. Okay, then let's not from my hand. Okay, great. So then first step is you'll need Java. For Java 11. Check that you've got it you'll need Apache Maven, and I've been using Maven 3.8.5. You can use 3.8.4 either is fine. You've already connected to the channel, the, and have both of you already registered for a Jenkins account. Yes, I have. Okay. Great. Thank you. So then you need to use these installing instructions to install yourself a local copy of Jenkins. Now the local copy of Jenkins it's probably better for you. If you do it using the war files technique, rather than using a for instance the Windows installer now which platform development platform each of you using so Catherine are you on Windows Linux or Mac OS. Okay, and, and piece Linux Mac OS or Windows Windows okay good so so for both of you it's probably best to follow the instructions in war files because you're going to be doing more development centered things, whereas these install instructions on Linux and Windows are mostly about people who want to run in production. So you're going to be doing development work so use the war files technique to do your installation. Let me make a note of that. Okay so use the war file install instructions so that you have an easily maintained local development instance. And then you don't have to become the root user in order to make changes you don't have to create an administrator account on Windows, any of those things. Now this suggests that you should install Jenkins install the recommended plugins and the blue ocean plugin. Now there's, there's good information about blue ocean. You will you may or may not need it if you're interested in learning more about Jenkins and, and it's pipeline visualization tool called blue ocean. You can go to this location and read all about it. I'll put that link in the in the document as well. Yes, I was trying to install blue ocean and it says I need to have administrator permission. It said you so Jenkins said that you needed to have administrator permission. Yeah, I'm reading it wrong. No, no, that's that's so. So if your Jenkins is, if you did a relatively specialized Jenkins configuration you might not be logged in as the administrator. Let's do a quick check be sure. For instance, if I look, let's do this way weekly dot ci dot Jenkins that I was a is a running instance and if I attempt to do, I can't do a put an installation here because I don't even have managed Jenkins. Now if I log in. Now I have managed Jenkins, and in this case then I can install plugins. That that may be what you need to check if that's not enough. Then let me know and we can do some further exploring. Okay. As another example, yours. Yeah, well, other examples won't help. It's the same, same thing just be sure that that you are, for instance, logged in here, and that you have available to you choices like configure. So, and getting Jenkins running with blue ocean is a is a good step for for your familiarizing yourself with what this, what this means and what it is to run Jenkins and what can I do with Jenkins Oh I want to create a new job therefore I do this I want to, I want to administer it I do that. So this is a good thing for you to explore during these two weeks of preparation. Using your GitHub account fork up plug in repository. For instance, they're here it suggests pipeline build step, and be sure that it's visible in your account so by that I mean you go to the Jenkins pipeline build step. And here if I click the fork button. And it says marquee wait that says I've got it forked already. So I have a fork already of this. And if I go there like this, instead of Jenkins see I go to marquee wait you'll see here is my copy of that of that plugin. And when I want to update it I click fetch upstream and that gives me the most recent copy into my copy of it. And this would be a working place where you could make changes, and they're just yours. You don't have to share them with anyone. They're there all yours. Have, have, have you each had some experience with GitHub and forking and pull requests yet or should we do a session later on forks and pull requests. Yes, I have an idea, but I would love on a section because the, the time I use GitHub that was the first time I was using it and since then I have not used it that much. So, I would like you to give us a session on that please. Great. Okay, so we will plan for that. There is actually a mark, I will be presenting a session on GitHub. It's April 2021. And we could, we could have a session that lets me practice for that. Would the two of you be willing to be my test case so I can test what I'm going to present to everybody else to the two of you first. Okay, and, and could I ask one of the two of you to be my, my assistant presenter so, in fact, maybe I should ask both of you to be my assistant presenters if you're willing. Have you both had at least some experience with GitHub. Yes. Okay, good. So, so if you're willing, let me let me create some, I'll, I'll get an idea and we'll in our next session attempt to do it together and then you can decide if you're willing to be my helpers at the presentation to the rest of the group. Okay. Please can I ask a question. Sure. Yeah. So, the basic said, join get up and ensure that you can fork a gene king plugin repository. The plugin we are, we're going to fall. Is it the one that is listed on this Excel sheet. It may be, but we may find a way. So yes, you'll have to fork many plugins each time you need to make a change to a plugin you'll need to fork it. So each each plugin you need to change will need to be forked. So in that sense, yes, and the sheet that we're using. Where did I put that sheet now shame on me where is that sheet. It is right here. So the plugins on this sheet are exactly the plugins you'll be working so peace. For instance, you'll look at script security and see are there any inclusive naming problems there. If there are, you'll note it and then then you may submit a poll request to fix that. If you find those kinds of issues, you'll definitely want to fork it but you don't particularly have to fork it until you find that you need to make a change. Do you have a question. Yes, that's exactly what I'm asking. So I need to first find out if I would require if a plugin needs a change before I can talk that blogging that there is right there is no benefit to you to forking a plugin before you know it needs a change. And as an example script security as a test I went through it and I did not see any reason that it would need a change. I didn't need to change it I would think you would not fork it. So, for instance, when I look here for the word master. The only two places where the word master occurs is in a file that is Java source code and it's Java doc. That's harmless. Yes, you could change it, but it's much lower priority than us changing things that are visible in the UI. And here, this is another one this is in sandbox whitelist blacklist so the file name is is not inclusive right that's that's a poor choice of file name, but renaming a file is really difficult. Whereas changing because then you have to find all the source code that refers to it and you have to upgrade users. So we're not even going to attempt a file rename. So here it says, oh, this one is a comment, and you could change this one from master to controller. But again it's not terribly valuable because it's a comment inside the file so yes it needs it. Now if we instead said, what about slave. That's another non inclusive term. No references at all. Let's see how about blacklist. Okay, there are a few but again these are function calls in Java we won't change those and a string get resource that's an interesting one I don't know about that one. Yes. Yeah, so therefore no we don't have to, we don't have to worry nearly as much about making tests inclusive as making the product inclusive that people see. So did that did that address your question piece. Yes, but I want to have so if the name will want to change is in form of a script, we don't have to change it. If you find if you find something let's let's take this example we were just in that one it was let's see it was master right. And here, what I see is. Oh, okay this says there's there's a reference to master. We could change that and maybe let's go ahead and do that. We can't however change, and we could change a comment in the in the in this Java doc in this Java comment without harming the the softer functionality. We can't rename this file without making significant changes to support the files rename. We would not make, we would not change this file name. Now we might go in and change this file, instead of using the word see what was master right. We might hear. Now I'm just going to do this live and this is not the way I would recommend you do it, because I like forking and doing that work myself or doing it from my local computer instead of using their web interface but here we'll do it from here and we might say hey, we're going to change this. I did not give me this on the master branch sorry I've got to go find this, just a minute. Now I would like to edit that. Now it's put me into my editor. So I look for master. And I could change this. It's not harmful to change it it's just a comment. It really isn't helping much either for me to change it. And yes, I can now I'm going to go ahead and submit it. Fix a comment. That is, let's make make a comment more inclusive, rather than master use controller. Okay so what you're seeing me do actually is I am creating a poll request to the script security plugin to fix an issue. And, and I did it through the GitHub UI. Now I think you'll find it much better to do it from your desktop. But this at least shows you hey it can be done from the GitHub UI. What I'm doing now is I'm checking each of them. Okay I have not provided tests. So I'm going to use the till double till to the market out. And now I'm going to create the poll request. So now what I can do is I would put this into our inclusive naming sheet and say, there's a poll request. Actually it's even better if instead of that I just paste it like that. And I would, it would have been better if I'd done multiple changes in that one poll request, so that I didn't have to link to multiple times but this is good enough for now. Any questions so far. I do have a request. Is it possible we schedule another meeting, I think the next Monday, where we can pick one issue and then we go through the whole process. Absolutely. Yes, you bet. And if next Monday, that's a good thing because I'm, I'm sort of at the end of my time I've got other things I've got to do. If next Monday or we could meet earlier if that's if it's crucial to you but next Monday would be easy for me. And I think we might be able to schedule a 60 minute time so that we could do this kind of thing again would that be okay for the two of you. Yeah, that would be good for me. Yes, that'll be okay for me but I have a question please. Yes. What I was asking the other time was, if we, if you showed us a comment of white blacklist on a script. So I'm asking doesn't mean that we can't change like we can change the name when the, when the, when the name is on the script for you. Okay, you typed blacklist, and then it brought out is your breath with white this is brought out some codes where blacklist is included a kind of JavaScript file. Right. So I want to know, is it that we cannot change a script like in, we cannot rename a script is just the, the documents or will I say the read me file. So, so what I would phrase it slightly differently. It's that there is a there is a, there is a set of priorities that we have and let's so let's talk about that so there are priorities, priorities and, and improving success and increasing the likelihood of success. So, and now I'm going to outline which things so priority one. Whoops. Yeah, there we go priority one. HTML files are used for online help all terminology. It can be fixed in our HTML, and if they occur. So let's say differently, any terminology issue detected in HTML. Okay. And be fixed. And that's because it's, it's help text right. It is help text. And even if that's imperfect, but it's close enough, let's say almost any terminology issue detected in HTML can HTML can be fixed because it's help text. So we do that jelly files are used to define the you to bind the web page to the job objects. What that means is they have. They include some components that are variable names inside Java, and we can't change those variable names. They include some components that are just text strings that are UI text strings. We can change those components, we can change those strings. So peace, does that does that help you get a sense of those two things. Then there's a third layer which is Java files. Provide the core logic strings in Java files, often can be can be updated Java identifiers, like, let's see like, what's a good example. File path or slave to master callable cannot be updated without breaking compatibility. And we don't want to break compatibility. Our first focus is these HTML files, the jelly files. And if we find things in the Java files that we confidently can change without breaking compatibility, we would want to do that but more important is we want to preserve compatibility. So peace back to your question you asked, hey, couldn't I change blacklist. Right. That was, that was that example in script security plug in. Right, so let's get the Jenkins script security plug in here it is. And now you may ask, well, why couldn't I change that. Where was it. Yes. Okay, this one it's easy why you can't change it. It's an identifier blacklist is a Java method name. It's also not shown to users so that's okay, we don't change it. This one is more complicated because it may in fact just be a string shown to users, but it's inside a test. And because it's a test, it's not shown to users so we wouldn't bother with it. So let's look for master. That was the one that I think we found yes, why not rename this file, and my guess is and this is just me guessing but my guess is that this is a data file that's being provided with the product and other code depends on this exact name. I can't change the name without changing all the other code that uses it. So, did that, did that address your question about, hey, why didn't we fix this inclusive naming problem. Yes, it does. Okay, good. All right, so. Question. Yes, go ahead. Is there a list of or a document that shows the best practices, or the kind of instances that we cannot change the names. There, there isn't, and I think what we want to do is we'll assemble that here. So, so things that we cannot rename include. See if I can get it to do an indent. Java identifiers. That's variables, class names, package names, etc. Okay, so, so if, for example, we looked in the Jenkins Java doc, this is a good one for an example of lots of things we cannot change. So here's the Jenkins Java doc for Jenkins core. In Jenkins core, I'm going to search for slave. There's an entire package.  None of these things can be renamed. Because they're Java identifiers that are dependent on by other other things. If we were to rename them we'd have to rename everything everywhere we just can't do that. So there's an example of a, we can't make that change and proposing that change will just waste people's time they'll say sorry that's not acceptable we would break Jenkins completely if we made that rename. So Java identifiers know we can't change those resources resource file names, typically can't be renamed so again this is a form of Java identifier, it's not really a Java identifier strictly but it's it's the same kind of thing where a resource file name is probably used by others. Now if we talk about things we can safely rename Java dot comments. HTML file contents. HTML help file contents. We can do jelly file strings. We can do Java source code strings with several caveats with several risks that we have to evaluate, because there are a number of places where a string in Java source code may in fact, not be safe to. Oh, maybe we should say it this way. Localizable. Java source code strings. We can change other Java source code strings we may not be able to change and when I say localizable. What I mean there is strings that when running in French could be shown in French does does that help and we can certainly talk further about this in later sessions. It's a good, it's a good place to start. Great. Okay. So in terms of what I would hope is I'd hope that the two of you are able to go through the getting started as much as you can this week before we meet next week. And it would be really great if you were able to submit a pull request proposing a change. It would be as simple as you as you would like the one word change that I did would be that kind of thing would be just fine. If you would like to do it on a plugin that I maintain. Let me offer you several that you could you could consider this way will assure that you've got a reviewer and I can help so some plugins to, and these are not important plugins most of them they're just plugins that you could use to check out and use for experiments include the elastic access probe plug in the let's see the platform labeler plug in the test and G plug in the schedule build plug in, and if you're freely feeling brave to get client plug in, and the get those are all plugins that I maintain, and therefore you could, when you submit a pull request I'll see it, and I can coach you on it. Now ultimately, none of these are important enough, except these very last two to probably be on your list for a very long time they're all small infrequently used plugins. I apologize, I've got to end for now. Next Monday, same time for 60 minutes is that okay for the two of you. This is perfect. Thank you. All right, I'll schedule I'll schedule a session for next next Monday and we'll go from there. Thank you. Thank you. Yes, go ahead. What was that from with your calendar, because I don't know if it's the same thing for you. Easter Monday. Oh, we won't do it right next Monday would be a bad choice, you're right thank you because that's a bank holiday in many countries would Tuesday next week work okay for the two of you. And, and actually I had a quite a request from from nafisa our project manager, if we could move it earlier looking at my calendar I wonder, would you be available any earlier in the day so that we're not quite as late in your day. Well evening is all here with me. But I think we can move it on the, let's say, 7pm. Okay, and what's your offset from utc what what time is it now for you. Right now it's 945. Okay, so if we if we move to seven that would be moving it two hours earlier is that right. Yeah. Okay, and two hours earlier. One to two hours earlier would work for me based on that calendar let me check another calendar and stop sharing my screen to check my work calendar. Okay, so. All right. Okay, so next Tuesday the 19th at yes two hours earlier would work great for me if it's okay for the two of you. Okay, well he does. So, so good let's go for two hours earlier next Tuesday. And would Tuesday be okay in general could we move this meeting to Tuesday, my calendar on Tuesday is easier than my calendar on Monday. Okay. I don't mind if you move it to choose this or Tuesday every other week. Actually, we would actually try to do Tuesday every week. And, and if that works for the two of you. Let's go for Tuesday peace is that okay with you. Yes, that's okay with me. Great, I will schedule us for Tuesday each Tuesday and I'll make it two hours earlier in hopes that wait a sec Tuesday did I see. I've got to look at my calendar more carefully. Tuesday we are now here. One, two, one. Yes, two hours earlier works great for me. Okay, good. That's, I can, I can make that work. So, two hours earlier each Tuesday and, and we'll go ahead from there. Okay. Thanks both of you. Thanks very, very much and thanks for joining the Jenkins project. Thank you. Thank you. Bye.