thing now whose terms is this where some of the the allies will say wait wait wait hold on a minute what why are we doing that yes in a word i can first of all say it's not unprecedented the 2012 Gaza military operation for example began with an Israeli targeted assassination on a major figure in Gaza and that led to an instant escalation so Netanyahu has done something like this before but that said when you look at the sweep of israel certainly the major guys of conflicts and even the ones that were lesser the general pattern has been an escalation from the other side that israel is responding to and you're right albert that gives israel a stronger measure of legitimacy abroad at the beginning and we have to emphasize that at the beginning we all know all of us all of our viewers know what has happened over the course of those campaigns to israel standing abroad in an international public opinion yeah we did hear something outside just in case you're just joining us we did hear a big large explosion just out of our studio very close yeah there's a three or four now yeah yeah no sirens in in Tel Aviv but we did hear the explosions anyway obviously an evolving situation and something is rarely sadly have become used to of course to remind everyone watching in israel important it is of course to follow the instruction of the home front command and how we have seen in past conflicts that it has often saved lives and it's something important for all of us to keep in mind but you're right albert that international standing and opinion is part of this but of course not all of it there also is internal politics and giving the israeli public a sense of confidence in the security and there is the strategic calculation right trying to take control of the timing trying to do this in israel's own terms so it's not during the month of ramadan on one hand so it's not after the drusselm day march next week which is tended to lead to escalations most famously in 2021 two years ago that this is a time when israel is doing it on its terms and not on the other side's terms to what extent will that actually give israel an advantage and actually get israel and prime minister netanyahu a better result of course that's the big question great oh and ultimate hold on one second i just want to get people up to date right now in case you're just joining us from around the world the i-24 news is live with breaking news coverage of the missile attacks that are occurring on towards israel they have been some interceptions in the past few minutes when the past 30 within the past 30 seconds that we heard a large boom there have been four or five of them that we can hear right here in our studio there have been interceptions all throughout the southern part of televieve we are in yafo which is just on the southern part of televieve we can hear it from here so we know that the interceptions are underway we are going to continue with our live coverage as this continues oh and let me go back to you for one second now the this would then presume that we we know the israel the israeli government knows that this is about to happen they are now intercepting as best as they can the iron dome is knocking out almost all of these missiles but now now comes the now what now what happens from here what happens from here is israel tries to get to a point where the security situation is better at the end of the campaign for israelis and israelis feel safer at the end of the campaign than they did before it that's always the standard when you're measuring gaza campaigns albert it's a different difficult standard to apply a very difficult standard to evaluate right especially since it often has to be evaluated looking backward rather than forward but that ultimately is the standard by which it will be judged it's the phrase that's often used in hebrew is the best translation i can make in english is the picture of victory right which is a kind of emotional sense that what you are seeing before you is something that means that you have come out on top in the campaign it's very very hard to pin down and i think what you're getting at in your question i think rightly is is how much that shows about how little strategic imagination there is here in israel's part but the reality is no one has come up with a better alternative we could talk about this later in the broadcast i think actually the biggest crisis is the crisis of strategy for mass and it's complete strategic failure great let's hold on one second all too much let me go now to piaz talk about she's joining us live uh at the in estad pia what's happening right behind you now well urban exactly we're here in estad we're less than 40 kilometers less than 25 miles away from the gaza strip here we had at least six rockets six times people had to run to the shelter within the last hours now people here are quite used to that regular rounds of escalations but still you see that the roads are relatively empty where you hear and a shopping mall and as you can see there are a few cars parked here most of them also belong to the workers here but there are really not a lot of people outside here now there are a few public shelters here also in the area of the shopping mall also we are being told that many of these shops have a safe room within also as i said because estad is if cities that is regularly targeted whenever there is an escalation with gaza chances are high that also estad is affected so people here are regular are relatively used to these rounds of escalations but of course the situation is very volatile as they can see it is relatively calm right now but we saw that an interception also happened quite close to the hospital here in estad so people of course are quite worried about what is there to come what is there to expect they have been albert under special instruction and the special instructions for the past more than 24 hours since yesterday morning special instructions were in place for people live in the area of about 25 miles away from the gaza enclave which means that public gatherings were restricted not more than 10 people were allowed to gather outside not more than 100 inside schools were closed were suspended today throughout the day as well now some train services were suspended as well in the area and also some roads were blocked now these special instructions from the home front command are in place until 6 p.m. in the evening but given the situation albert it seems very likely that they will be extended maybe also to further areas people here are not also were advised to stay very close to shelters not everyone also in a city like estad has a public shelter room in their houses there are lots of public shelters people are advised and have been advised to do so to stay as close as possible next to shelters since yesterday morning basically so people are also after a very tense and very tiring period of time as they were expecting that reaction from gaza to come now the escalation has begun we have seen that rocket fire also up for the north to up to televiv now people here are expecting that this round is not over yet of course they are remaining as close to their public as close to public shelters as possible or as close to their homes as possible people are rushing also to get their children from wherever they are school service has been suspended throughout the day but there is this feeling of people have to prepare for whatever there is to come of course there are many questions albert that need to be asked now is that rocket fire only coming from the palestine islamic had will have us join those are questions which we don't have the answer for right now but i guess the facts will speak in the coming hours so i'm looking behind you some people have left their security they've left the secure spaces are walking around in the streets is that mean that that they've gotten the all clear or are they just doing it on their own risk they're doing this basically at their own risk as the home front commands instructions still say that people should remain as close to shelters as possible but you'll also hear in an area that has some public shelters so here in us dot you have about 45 seconds to run to a public shelter when you hear the alert so people here in this area they are within that time frame of being able to run to a shelter in the case off so but as i also said albert here in us dot people are used to that rounds of escalations people are used to these scenarios so many people feel comfortable enough to leave also but also shops were not close throughout the day so we also have a lot of workers here who take their break who are outside to do not stay in their shops all the time because they also have a lot fewer customers than normal because of course people were advised to stay home if possible so also business as usually you cannot really say because as you see this shopping mall is quite empty and has been quite empty but yes there are people who feel comfortable enough to also wander outside although this is not recommended especially as we can expect a new alert basically any second great pia sheikh box he's joining us live now from asto with our live team coverage i just want to give a recap as we hit the top of the hour there have been about a hundred missiles aimed at israel in the past couple of hours now within the past five ten minutes there were about four or five interceptions right over televieve the rocket siren alerts have occurred in televieve we all got it on our mobile phones we hear the sirens outside in the televieve area so the this continues you're looking at live pictures now this is gaza this is now another idf strike at a gaza at a gaza point you'll see a plume of smoke there as the camera pulls back you'll see that's uh there in gaza city uh this is uh i've been going on now for about two hours i'm joining not only live in studio with on ultimate but also with rafael you're you're showing me he's a former senior intelligence officer at the idf and also security analyst thank you so much for joining us uh this is um quite the escalation that was expected uh yes and no because we were expecting them to fire at some point yes but not to fire that intensely and that's such a long range usually in the former rounds that we've had uh with the the guards and terrorists uh they graduate their shots they start by the south of israel then there's like a reprisals from the idf that's also those and graduated and then they shoot more inland and it takes usually a few good hours sometimes more than a day before they decide to shoot towards televiv which is usually a message uh saying we're ready for the big fight when they so usually it takes longer this was like between 130 and 213 in one hour they they did what they usually do in one day and they immediately sent the message we're ready for the big fight meaning for a bigger reprisal bring it on yeah come with us bring it that's right so the there are two possibilities here what did they do that uh the first is that they were frustrated by the fact that they were trying as we know since yesterday uh to do a different kind of hit uh with an anti-tank missile maybe to shoot at an idf patrol or some bus with workers uh to or any hit that would have had real casualties uh to maybe have a new formula uh not the missiles and they failed yesterday they tried the anti-tank missile people were trying to shoot got eliminated by the idf so there is this frustration that might justify or explain this intensity of firing of the missiles today another explanation is that they're in a panic they know that they will be able to operate for so long so they probably want to stop uh very strongly because they want to fire uh uh what they can while they can and use these long range missiles while they can knowing that sooner or later right now as we are speaking i think we can hear that there's a bit of a long it's a little quieter because uh of course the idea is in full swing over them with the drones with the artillery with the with the planes and they're now not going to be so easy for them now to shoot missiles uh not only to the north of israel or the center but even uh the mortars because they've just been hit a few positions have just been hit by the idea of uh mortar shootings we don't know on our sides of casualties on the palestinian side but the palestinian ministry of health has announced that they have received uh at least a few wounded people and maybe two or three corpses so the fact that they had very little time you also must remember that the islamic jihad doesn't have the quantity of ammunition and that the Hamas has right the Hamas you're talking thousands thousands of missiles in the islamic jihad is more like hundreds and missiles able to reach Tel Aviv a few dozens so that's might explain the fact that they shot so much so fast uh it the kind of panic like they say let's do it now because we don't know if we're going to be able to continue uh disquieting the the israelis uh for long so that would that would it seem to think that that what they're doing now is getting rid of everything which is all in one big barrage but that's at some point they'll run out of missiles at some point but the the estimate is between 3000 and 5000 projectiles I would call it meaning like real missiles I said a few dozen towards Tel Aviv for the south of Israel it's it's much more and then you have all the mortar or the little projectiles but these projectiles can be more lethal because they are much more difficult to intercept they're very short range it's a few seconds the the iron dome is not able to intercept such small projectiles they might be be actually more dangerous even though we saw that we had at least two hits meaning the iron dome didn't stop everything today it was one hit on the house since they wrote and when we hit on the roof of a kindergarten fortunately the inhabitants obeying the instructions were not there but you see how dangerous the situation is they want they are frustrated more and more that they didn't manage to kill anybody and especially soldiers but now they would like to kill absolutely anybody a child would do the trick for them and this is very dangerous for us we have to be the civilians have to be of course very alert and the idea has to pound and pound and strike hard all the time to create like a oppression a oppression that makes it difficult for the terrorists to operate and to regroup because now what what this quiet means they're actually regrouping to redeploy somewhere else they've been spotted they have to find other places to shoot from so you're saying that basically what the IDF does right now is continue the constant pressure on them a constant barrage of of attacks on them as we saw a few moments ago there was a plume of smoke in Gaza City so they are they are attacking where they see these rockets coming from and where they see is a very important word because you have to see them and if you consider a shooting a mortar you you're speaking of two guys on a motorbike right they can arrive with the equipment they go into an orchard they hide me in between the trees and they're very difficult to spot sometimes they make it even more difficult they will go in a school or a hospital and then the IDF cannot shoot of course that's an important fact that human shields is an important fact that's their main weapon I mean look at the the chief of the Hamas in Gaza Mr. Sinoir he walks around always with two children at this side that's so would we want to target him okay we will but we had no choice the night before when we eliminated the three arch terrorists they were with women and children around them that's their tactic so at that point we have a moral dilemma and you have a calculation how many of our women and children uh lives are we going to save in exchange for this the collateral damage but it is a real technique Mr. Sinoir walks around everywhere he goes with children around him so Rafael one question one thing that was brought out earlier Owen brought it out earlier was that that the prime minister and the defense minister did this they do the calculation in advance they see what the potential repercussions are but that they went in advance as opposed to responding they they went first that's a different tactic that's excellent it was done last year as well by the preceding government at first people were yeah people were a bit frustrated at first like why why isn't the IDF answering strongly and they say it was very well played or very well played what was also well played is not to convene the security cabinet because right now we have a lot of ministers that are very outspoken that could have been a security risk so it was kept very secret it was very professional the operation itself was very surgical and of course on the very night that last week after the the rocket's fire if you try to shoot back you have no effect of surprise all the guys are in the bunkers hidden waiting so it's obvious that you have to wait a few days for them to be less vigilant and come out of their hiding places then strike and of course the security services gave the army the information when the guys came out when they were at home or in their car and they were easy easier targets and we have to have the initiative it's been too many too many years that the terrorists have had the initiative they are the one they are proactive they decide when to shoot want to shoot even this time I mean we limited three our terrorists but then we were waiting to see the good or ill will of the terrorists what are they going to shoot when are they going to shoot will they shoot will the Hamas go mean will not the Hamas come in also there there is a dilemma how good and efficient is it to give immunity this kind of immunity to the Hamas to try and leave the Hamas out of it the Hamas is not out of it it's full in it so is it a good strategy not a good strategy we will see now in the coming hours it seems to be that right now the Hamas does hesitate to come in even though it has declared that they want to come in they do not seem to come in right now they depend of course on their masters in Tehran that's where but I'm not so sure it's some thought as I would say that this kind of immunity given to the Hamas is good maybe last night we should also have stricken people from the Hamas leadership interesting may you bring that up before we let's get back to that just in a moment let me Jewish Lami thank you so much one second home on here let me go to Bacha 11th all she's in Tel Aviv right now on the Tayyel at Bacha just about a half hour ago a little less than that we heard the explosions out here in front in the I-24 studios in Yafo you are you heard it too tell us tell us where you were and what happened absolutely Albert well for some of our viewers that don't know the Tayyel it meaning the Tel Aviv boardwalk or promenade which we're currently on we heard what sounded like interceptions above us but from some of the alerts that were coming through realize that was perhaps further south in Batiam but from what residents have been telling us yeah and I'm gonna ask our cameraman just to swivel so you can see this is pretty unreal for Tel Aviv at this time the beach is practically empty some residents telling us that it could be on the account of the wind it is incredibly windy today we do see some parasails in the water but a lot of people mostly tourists that are here before the summer holidays in June July and August telling us that they would prefer to stay near the hotels and you'll see just on the other side of me we're standing right next to the Kempinski hotel and people are rather lounging there by the pools some people that did come downstairs saying that they prefer to stay at the hotel because at least there's a bomb shelter there and they know what to do when speaking to some of the tourists here on the promenade we did speak to one lady earlier um originally from Holland who said that the last time she was here was almost 40 well just more than 40 years ago during the Yom Kippur war and saying that that terrorized her so much to the point that she didn't actually want to come back but she's obviously here for a wedding and knowing that this is happening again she's very sensitive to a lot of the sounds and we hear that same semblance mind you Israelis are very resilient and this is part and parcel of their lives here but Israelis also feel it that the start of a car even the rile up of some of the scooters that are here has a slight resemblance to the sirens and that almost triggers a panic response for people to send them running and so a very unusual situation here on the boardwalk in Tel Aviv which is usually packed no matter the time of day no matter the season it's very unusual to see that a lot of people are sort of bunkering at the moment but if you take a listen to what we spoke to this woman about earlier you'll see exactly some of the sentiments that I've mentioned to you now what happened this morning I don't really feel safe but so I just heard a sound again and I thought what is this but that was the ambulance or was that a sireen also you I was in the hotel when the noise came and then the owner say where I have to go so that is Evelyn that is that tourist from Holland the last time being here more than 40 years ago during the Yom Kippur world we're getting similar sentiments from a lot of the tourists that we've been seeing walking in obviously closer to the hotels than they are to the beach but I will remind our viewers that a lot of these beach bars and cafes there are public shelters and we did see videos earlier surfacing of when that rockets actually came over Tel Aviv area with the interceptions there at around 2 30 p.m local time you did see many people running not necessarily off the beach but to the shelters the public shelters that are open all across the central areas including in Tel Aviv that were on the beach so there is a protocol there are rules in place for when this happens but it doesn't detach or take away from the fact that a lot of people here are still what would be considered a sort of tense calm given the situation that's unfolding at the moment in Gaza. Great Bacha Leventhal joining us live from the tail and from the boardwalk in Tel Aviv thank you so much for joining us we'll come back to you in a few moments we'll come back into the studio for once like an ultimate to stay with me here to join us. Rafael mentioned something before about the government making sure that it was done secretly that there wasn't a lot of discussion about this operation and I would imagine that the prime minister wanted to do that to prevent for lack of a better term rabble rousers in his government saying that they needed to do more they needed to do more talk to us a little bit about that. Yeah of course the security cabinet for example was not convened before the initial strike and that of course had to go through legal review so this was attorney general had to sign off on that she she released her predecessor had signed off on similar things in the past the rationale being that she had been convinced the standard being legally that that wouldn't be an act that would lead to quote war again it's the word war itself in israel has a kind of legal meaning that is itself a high bar but at any rate the security cabinet wasn't convened and reportedly albert in order not to have too many people understanding and knowing about this obviously as the campaign continues the security cabinet has been convened and ministers will have to be brought in as always in these situations and every democracy confronts this including of course the united states what is the balance on one hand between secrecy and putting the hands of decision in and the hands of the leader who must make it and on the other hand allowing a multiple multiplicity of voices to be able to be heard in the case of the united states different branches of government obviously this has been a constitutional issue over the course of time and it's always a balance that democracies have to strike that's how it was struck in in this case be that all as it may we have not seen opposition to this in israel right is that unusual no not unusual it's quite standard for an operation like this of course from the Arab partitions of course within the Arab parties including a month's robust is wrong party we have seen opposition very important to note that but from among among the Zionist parties among the Jewish parties across the political spectrum have not seen opposition at least to this point we had both it to mark Bengevier from the furthest reaches of the right and also your ear lapid the opposition leader from the center left coming out and praising the operation praising the renewal of targeted killings praising the taking of initiative on the time that you and rafael you will show me we're talking about before so this is something that at this point is is enjoying wide support in israel we should say in general in Israeli military operations that that is one element that has continued over the course of the operation still a large amount of trust in the military here still obviously opposition to the factions and the gods of strip they may think okay that each other side of the political spectrum in israel is less popular than they are right so that the left won't stand with the right when the right quote unquote goes to war against them because the left will somehow prefer them over the right whatever kind of warped thinking that reportedly was but as we see before as of course that's not true and of course the country is going to come together to fight terror groups in Gaza again of course the real question is what's the wisdom and will this actually get to a better result at the end of that of course we'll have to judge this time goes by oh and old friend stand by one second i want to go live now to pier cluster later he is joining us live from the border of israel and gaza right now where the just moments ago once again we heard sirens going off in southern israel pierre tell us what's going on with you well the latest alert was at 3 53 p.m. which which has given us a lot of almost half an hour which is quite appreciable we hear faint booms emanating from the gaza strip and i suppose that this is due to israeli actions operations into the gaza territory we hear also the rotor of choppers but we don't see them in the sky right now at this moment it's pretty quiet there is this checkpoint this israeli checkpoint which prevents people like us or other visitors to drive along the road that drives along the security border and that's because of security issues in the past they've been the the gaza factions have been firing anti-tank missiles cornet type russian type onto israeli vehicles causing casualties even fatalities that's why in certain areas where the road is not protected from such anti-tank missiles the army sets up checkpoints and do not allow people to drive on that road except for those who live in the communal community villages that are further down the road so a lot of security here but given that there's been some hits around the vicinity of the gaza border for instance in the kindergarten which was inoccupied because kindergarten's and schools have been closed since yesterday morning under the instructions of the home from command of the israeli army and there was also a direct hit on an unoccupied house inside there are the city of about 30 000 inhabitants in this direction sorry about that appear i'm sorry thank you one second i just wondered we're just getting word in from uh the gaza factions have sent out a joint operation room statement so let me just read that to our viewers who are just watching right now it says with the help of the Allah almighty and his might the joint chamber of the palestinian resistance factions announces the implementation of the revenge of the free operation that's what they're calling it revenge of the free which consisted in directing a large rocket strike with hundreds of rockets to enemy positions starting from the so-called gaza envelope to tell evive in response to the murder of the leaders of al-Quds and mujahideen brigades then there's they're going to say that they call this operation heroic it could they say it coincides with the anniversary of the eternal battle of the sword of jerusalem and they are this is now our first response back from the from the folks in gaza where they're saying they're saying that they are they are the resistance on all fronts of the homeland will remain a single unit a sword and a shield for our people our land and our holy places rafael this is pretty standard response from that declaration it's worth so far it's a rhetoric that first of all you identify immediately as a fanatical religious nothing to do with the liberation of the palestinian people right nothing nationalistic the PLO used to have different kind of language language of nationalism patriotism independence here you have a purely religious language so they're on a holy war to kill the infidel and that unites them for sure because nothing else does nothing else does unite them right the islamic jihad and Hamas are not best friends at all this declaration is obviously a safe face at this point they might be followed by actions but right now the Hamas cannot stand by and let the islamic jihad be the only hero in this in this scenario this brings up the point that you made moments ago where you said that the IDF needed to target Hamas as well why them why them because everything that happens in Gaza happens under the Hamas whether it's encouraged first of all the islamic jihad is very very convenient for the Hamas they don't like one another these guys but it's very convenient because the Hamas can have this islamic jihad do all the damage to israel and swash their hands of it and they say look this is the islamic jihad we haven't done anything we want to continue having the border crossings open our workers going to work to israel getting money to help rebuild we're fine the same way that they also operate in juli and samaria and the west bank and not from Gaza they always like like stay behind like they're not doing anything but they are doing everything they are the ones behind everything rafael or shalami thank you so much for joining us we continue our live team coverage of the rocket strike on israel from Gaza 100 rockets being launched televieve sirens being being heard all throughout the area central israel after the past two hours i24 news continues right after the break what it's like i it's unbelievable the just to be able to they're happy we're happy everybody's happy my project is about an endless loop of life that it's very fragile and we have to be responsible for our nature being a woman who dresses this week i have to do 10 times the work of the average woman because for people to even listen to me i must have gotten to a certain stage for news team of talented correspondents are working hard for you they're in the markets on the streets in the battlefields getting the pulse of the story tune in for beyond the headlines to see how the top stories of the week are affected real people no commentary no debate just the best stories presented by our best germans oh discover i24 news radio now you can listen to i24 news anywhere anytime for free i24 news radio is the audio live stream of the television network with world headlines every 30 minutes starting from 7 a.m. tune in for top news magazine traditions while in the car in your office join us from your smartphone tablet or desktop to stay connected in the middle east and around the world don't wait any longer head to our website or mobile application and click on i24 news radio to subscribe shalom and welcome to jewish world weekly i'm caled ben david and each week we're going to bring you the latest from the jewish world from politics to religion entertainment to the latest trends and everything in between join me each week as we explore the global jewish diaspora don't miss jewish world weekly only on i24 news middle east is changing old alliances make way for new partnerships bigger threats lead to new relationships and shared goals meaning new opportunities we speak to those who know the inside story and are the hearts of the changes don't get caught up with the same old story find out what's happening in middle east now middle east now on i24 news albert louis and in the i24 newsroom in televieve we continue our live team coverage of the breaking news that occurred about two hours ago when over 100 missiles were launched at israel at televieve from gaza all throughout the afternoon now we are now two and a half hours into this you're looking at live pictures of televieve at about two o'clock local time the sirens went off there were loud explosions in the air for those of us joining us around the world and from the united states and europe we could tell you that as of now there have been no casualties in televieve proper itself there have been some damage to areas that stirrup we heard of a of a kindergarten school that had been had been struck but that most of the kids are not at school today because they have been told in advance not to go to school now the the the loud explosions terrified many of the people who ran for cover that as you may know we have about 15 seconds once we hear the alarms to go into cover and to be in the sheltered space right out here in front of the i24 newsroom we heard very loud explosions at least four of them that occurred about 30 34 minutes ago now looking at the clock and it appears that there have been over a hundred projectiles headed towards israel this comes as israel also now strikes into gaza city and hitting attack and hitting some of the palestinian islamic jihad strongholds in gaza city i'm joining live in studio with oan ultraman the islamic jihad as well as some of the other factions put out a statement saying that they are that they were doing this in the name of Allah and that this is an attack that was done for the freedom of the people our guest a moment ago said it was a religious unification of such and you you have some comments on that well obviously there are strong religious overtones in there pretty explicitly right it's seen through a kind of religious framework with religious with a religious lexicon and obviously these are the religious groups right i mean these are islamic groups that's at the core of their identity but i disagree with with how rafael characterized it before the break i'm sorry we'll be here to to answer it obviously is religious but this obviously is not and it's a through religious framing and not a secular framing but certainly there are elements of nationalism and national goals in there right it talks about occupation and talks about we'll get to this in the second albert about how all of the elements in the fronts of the of the front will be united that's an important phrase an important paragraph it's gotten a lot of attention uh that element in israel last weeks but i want to it's not simply blind religious fanaticism obviously it's part of a context right a context of of the palestinian people's story the palestinian people's story over the last hundred years over the last 75 years in the gaza strip over the last 56 years for that matter uh over the last 20 some years since israel evacuated all of the soldiers and all of the settlers from every inch of gaza but nonetheless uh and this from the eyes of hamas and islamic jihad and the factions and i'm sure from the eyes of many of the people in gaza uh today and an every day is seen through part of of of rectifying a historic injustice done to the palestinian people and being able to as i don't know if the phrase if the statement used the phrase but liberate their land which is of course how the palestinian people see it so it's not just a blind religious fanaticism of people who woke up one morning and are acting uh because of because of what a la told them it's because of what they see is happening to their people uh i do think though of course the more important question is this strategy that hamas is using uh albert's been a complete failure okay this mukawama strategy this resistance strategy of using the territory of gaza that israel evacuated completely completely in 2005 and hamas took over in 2007 of using that as a base for fighting israel and for nothing else for the most part okay has been a complete failure hamas has been added for 16 years the strategic results are zero right except for maybe an erosion of israel standing among democrats in the united states and you could argue that that's not connected to this in any event so this entire strategy of resistance of mukawama from hamas from his valla from others has been a complete failure israel is stronger economically than it was stronger militarily than it was and yes even even despite what we've seen or maybe because of what we've seen the last few months israel is stronger socially than it was then this is made no dent israel is simply adjusted built the iron dome built shelters have a new routine for the public it's obviously difficult for children and for the elderly and for the handicap but a new routine for people to manage this and israel is simply thrived and hamas has made zero strategic dent into israel and so the words and and essentially putting this strategy out again okay simply shows a complete lack of strategic imagination for a group that might actually have better options i want to just finally say one more thing that paragraph about all parts of the front being united right this is a reference what we saw two years ago in 2021 right where incidents in jerusalem uh in mixed arab jewish cities throughout israel including where we're sitting here in jaffa and of course what happened in the gaza strip and now in 2023 we can add the situation in lebanon right about a month ago we saw rockets fired by palestinian groups in lebanon that this is all part of the whole and hamas wants those fronts to be ignited and acting in unison to try to spread israel thin and to make it more difficult for israel to achieve its goals uh that is something a bit new and might present more challenges for israel but would actually get the kind of strategic results that the mukama strategy has completely failed to get over the last 16 years i don't think so so this is almost going back i mean the question i had about triangulation you've had the north you've had the east now you have this the southwest uh this triangulation is the newest part of it all but this is nothing israel remember i mean i'm going back like chalk to 1948 when all the arab countries attacked israel so it's not as though israel is not ready for something like that yeah i mean listen um you know some palestinian strategies over time have been say more successful than others i seems to me that this particular one uh is one of the less successful and again israel has done overall a good job of adjusting that's it israel certainly hasn't been able to win right the strategy that israel's use has been in a way that's it's always dehumanizing uh but still a reasonable metaphor although problematic mowing the lawn right the idea of a chore that has to be done time and time again because the lawn is going to continue to grow and the best that can be achieved is cutting the grass so applying the metaphor to the situation in Gaza right these terrorist groups are not going away israel is not going to be able to get rid of them what israel can achieve is mowing the lawn right targeting some of the leadership some of their military assets and then when those come back targeting them again and again and again to contain them that's not a strategy to win that's a strategy to contain it is a lack of strategic imagination but the problem albert is that no one in israel has been able to actually supply a real alternative for the most part not been able to supply a real alternative that the israeli public and israeli establishment fields could actually get a better result which is why we continue to see that strategy again maybe 14 or more years after it's after it was initiated so taking a look now live pictures you're looking at live pictures of Gaza there have been some strikes now by the idea in Gaza city at some of these locations you'll see a plume of smoke in Gaza city these are targeted locations exactly what Owen was saying is that the idea has to specifically target these pij strongholds these mortar areas the places where they're launching this as part of operation shield and arrow this is sort of this is the idea the idea is you target the top leaders in precision strikes and then from here i mean i'm looking now live pictures we're looking at live pictures of Gaza this is exactly what the IDF needs to do to get it done from what your perspective is look there's a plan the plan is then executed as i described it before there's a target bank with the targets as i understand it essentially ranked and you go down that list right at the top of the list again targets that have high value and low risk of civilian casualties and then as you start to exhaust the target bank it starts to get more problematic obviously the the spokesperson's unit the idea of coming out and telling us exactly what has been hitting each time in some cases of course these are rocket launchers being rolled out and about ready to launch right and so are being hit in other cases these are other military assets of Hamas or of course human beings as as we saw at the initiative at the outside of this campaign that are not connected necessarily to something that's happening here now but to the general campaign that that Hamas and other groups we should say because of course Islamic jihad that's been at the front here are using to target the israel and target israel civilians so while you're talking now we're just getting some word into the i-24 newsroom we're getting a red alert on our phones basically there there is a red alert on Yad Mordechai which is nishterot but there we're getting nativ hasara which is also getting attacked right now through rocket attacks they're moving they're telling people to seek shelter right now this is now we're talking two minutes as you probably know they have about 15 seconds to race into their shelters we're now we hear that there are once again they're coming i'm looking through we can hear the sirens in the area as well let's now we're going to go live now to bacha 11thal who's in the televiv right now bacha are you there yes albert i'm with you it's relatively quiet still in televiv a lot of tourists that did hit the beach in the early hours or at least the morning before the sirens started going off in the south but also that one that came through to televiv and that interception above our channels in jaffa have more switched over now and moved into some of the hotels a lot of them also hovering by the cafes and bars on the beach that do have public shelters that are just right next to them what we noticed in the last couple of hours which has been quite interesting is that the lifeguards on the beach are updating people on where the rocket alerts are going off in the south but also updating and we're updating earlier today when those rocket alerts went off in televiv they're making an announcement both in english and in hebrou for a lot of the tourists mentioning that they are not saying the alerts in order to worry anyone but just to give them an update on the situation knowing that a lot of the tourists don't have some of those applications that a lot of us locals use during times like this for the red alert sirens as well as the homefront command app so just trying to explain to people where the red alerts are how far away they are from televiv and instructing people where the shelters are along the beachfront every couple of minutes we are hearing some of those announcements coming from the lifeguards quite a few tourists that have been at least walking on the promenade a little bit sort of in between and you can see almost their hesitancy as to whether they actually go and sit on the beach or whether they go back to the hotel not knowing exactly what to do with themselves we did speak to a tourist earlier in the day from holland who said the last time she was here was over 40 years ago during the yom kippur war and this was obviously not what she had intended on her next visit here to israel but saying that she understands that it's part of israeli life but also saying that there's a lot of noises that give her sort of an icky feeling when it comes to listening to the sirens or whether it's just noises that are happening on the streets around her albert great batch 11th all thank you very much for joining us she's live at the tayela the boardwalk in televivo get back to her as soon as possible i just want to bring us up to date on what's happening now we've just gotten word that the minister of defense you have galant has submitted a request to the government to for the emergency declaration for the southern part of israel to continue it now is going to be within a range of 80 kilometers from the border this extension will let the idf determine some safety guidelines for the civilian population this is uh an extension of the emergency order and to that end we're going to go live right now to pia she's an astod which is within that 80 kilometer zone pia tell us more about what's happening with you well albert actually astod is less than 40 kilometers away from gaza so within the range that already had special instructions in place since yesterday morning public gatherings were restricted as well as train services some roadblocks education activities were suspended and people were advised to stay as close as possible to their shelters because when an alarm goes off here in astod you have about 45 seconds to run to a shelter as you can see we're here in a shopping mall that is relatively empty only the workers came here today not all the shops open because as i said people had these special instructions but here in astod people are often targeted by these rounds of escalations between israel and gaza and many people are already used to what is happening in these rounds of escalations and we are here with one of the residents yonatan kirov i want to ask you you grew up in astod how do you feel in those days what do you do when an alarm goes off most of the homes here are they have shelters if not there's a neighborhood shelter when an alarm goes off people already train people are used to it they go to the shelters we have an excellent alarm system never eye and functions none of functions always functioning so people are used to it although there is this instruction in place that people are supposed to stay as close as possible to shelters you decided to go out you just told me you wanted to go to the bank what is your personal feeling are you scared are you anxious or do you just go by your day as if nothing was going on no i go my day as it is i'm used to it i live here since i was a kid um like there's excellent defense system the iron dome does its work also all the shelters are open also like i said every house has a shelter so you can go about your day now we're hearing that many especially families from the south are looking for an accommodation elsewhere in the country well how are you going to proceed do you plan to stay in astod how do you see what do you think the next couple of days will look for you i guess the round of finding that will go on for like about a week 10 days so you plan to you plan to stay here and you're not afraid that's what we're hearing from you and that's what we're hearing from from many residents here who are used to these rounds of escalations who are used to alarms who are still applying to the instructions of the home from command as you see it is relatively empty here these instructions have been in place again since yesterday already the cars that you see here in this parking lot are mostly from the employees here in the shops many of the shops also have a safe room within the shops there also public shelters here so also the customers the very few who decided to come here today they're in this time frame of 45 seconds they will be able to go to public shelters in the time but we also spoke to some of the employees here who said that especially yesterday evening there was no one here as people were of course expecting that reaction from gaza there was a very very tense day yesterday also this morning up until we saw that first round of rockets eight rockets were fired here to ashkelon one landed in an open area very close to a hospital so there is this form of tension and residents here know that they are being prepared also by the israeli army and the home from command that this could lead into a multi-day campaign and they are prepared for the next dialogue that could go off any second great piaz chah back joining us live now from from ashkelon and ashkelon area thank you so much for joining us on this now we we you spoke she spoke with a resident there and let me i'm joined here by the way with oan ultraman uh she spoke with a resident who had this understanding that it's commonplace and we're ready but there's a human element to this you can't walk through the streets of tel aviv without every backfire of a car freaking people out yeah and then obviously the situation becomes more severe and more tense as the closer you get to the border with gaza first of all it is important to stipulate that again we don't know exactly what the situation is on the ground in gaza we certainly know from experience in past campaigns that if you're a civilian you'd much rather be on this side of the border than that side of the border right given the lack of protection that there is there the lack of concern hamas has philosophy and of course we have to say the obvious the massiveness of the israeli attack right and the poverty of the public and the fact that it's not a developed country like israel is right or even a country officially at all so you would much rather be a civilian on this side of the border than that side of the border the numbers have certainly borne that out in terms of the people who are actually civilians actually killed and wounded in past campaigns that said it's no a great deal to be a civilian on the israeli side of the border either certainly right on the border with gaza right yad mordechai nativa asara those those kibbutzim that you mentioned because they are kibbutzim close to the gaza border by the way yad mordechai of course named for mordechai and alevich right the leader of the war sageto uprising which just marked the 80th anniversary of just a month or so ago these are communities kibbutzim that are in many cases very very close to the border in the case of nacho those for example you can see the gaza fence from there right i think we have a team on their way there i've been there it's 800 meters that's it okay before the first intifada it's almost unimaginable now people from there in these communities would go to gaza city to go to the beach i mean as a child as a child my parents and i would go down to gaza as it so it's not as though you know it was a different world back then really was but obviously talking to today's world these are communities where as you mentioned very very very short time to be able to go to a shelter many cases are insensitive living in the shelter in a situation like this you ask why do people want to live in these places but then you go there and you understand it quite well these are lovely places wonderful communities wonderful homes beautiful areas and these are places that have a high standard of living you're looking at live pictures this is gaza city this is these are our cameras i-24 cameras in gaza that are taking a shot now you'll see there's a plume of smoke apparently the idf continues to say that they have struck some mortar this mortar launching positions that belong to the islamic jihad throughout the gaza strip and the idf goes on to say that they'll continue to act in in order to preserve the safety of the residents of the state of israel so just just to keep our viewers up to date now we are just after two hours worth of of barrage is back back and forth some 300 rockets have been fired towards israel from gaza 300 of them and now it's the sirens continue to go off we had another siren about five minutes ago and in this in the southern part of israel we're now going to go live to pierre clush later he's at the israeli gaza border right now pierre go ahead well the last alert was at 4 36 p.m. which is about 15 minutes ago and it was trying to hit villages on the northern tip of the gaza border in this in this direction here it's pretty quiet at this moment there's been some sort of a lull after that intense rocket fire of the first one and a half hour which basically covered not only the villages and towns around the gaza strip but also the central part of the country with tel aviv as a the price the golden price for the for the palestinian factions as you said the israeli army is still operating into the gaza strip we hear from time to time the roar of shoppers that are aiming at a mortar and rocket position we know from the idf that's over 40 rocket and mortar launchers have been neutralized we hear from the palestinian ministry of health in gaza that's over 20 people were killed in israeli military activities tens of wounded here on the israeli side you said over 300 rockets were launched toward israeli territory but something like 130 were intercepted a lot fell into open space also inside the gaza strip and as far as i know three or four where direct hits on you know unoccupied places such as a house in derot or a kindergarten in one of the community villages around the gaza strip and that's about what's happening right now great pier thank you very much for joining us i will you know while i have you on i just want to let you know the idf just sent out a small statement that combat helicopters were the ones that attacked the military position in belonging to the islamic jihad at the same time some jet fights as you see here another plume of smoke so that both the jet fighters and the firefight and the helicopters have been dropping dropping and attacking let me go to oan ultimate for one second here let me talk to you about the the of course is the i word iran they are from what we know they're directing they're calling the shots they've got their puppet strings this is all from them it's from them is it all from them i think their question mark amas existed before having iranian support i think it would exist even after having iranian support it has its own motives it has its own goals it has its own drivers it is part of the israeli palestinian conflict in a way that iran is not much as iran is trying to muscle its way in it is not in principle part of the israeli palestinian conflict again which gives hope for an israeli iranian reconciliation of course over the course of time in a way that's much more straightforward than in the israeli palestinian conflict but obviously iran plays a role in funding groups that surround israel it has been said that iran is playing a role in coordinating the workings of these groups around his own right again he pointing to that statement from the gazin factions right all parts of the front are united that's a reference to this that's a reference to what we saw in 2021 in may of 2021 just about two years ago exactly right the unity of events in jerusalem and mixed arab jewish cities inside israel in the gazin strip potentially also could impact the west bank and lebanon as we saw those rockets coming from there a month ago so again the idea is iran is a kind of hidden hand here even were iran not doing that and of course in some groups like khizball of course iran plays an oversized role right does iran play that kind of role in hamas a question mark maybe in islamic jihad more so but at any rate obviously iran is very important and but iran is a problem for israel a irrespective of rockets of hamas and hama akats from hamas or from islamic jihad we should focus on are a problem irrespective of iran yeah but these missiles these rockets come from someplace you can't you you're not going to home depot or go buy yourself rockets well a lot of them as i understand are actually built in gaza but you're right the money has to come from someplace and the training has to come from someplace certainly that's been supplied from iran it's certainly finding a way to change iran's incentives and change iran's policy from israel's perspective and not only israel's perspective god willing change iran's regime obviously albert would greatly help israel's security situation that said of course iran's regime is a reality its activity in the areas that surround israel is a reality and its reality israel needs to confront as we discussed before in terms of the situation in gaza the israeli strategy and a somewhat dehumanizing term is called mowing the lawn right the idea that the terrorist groups cannot simply be wiped away it's like grass that grows and simply needs to be mowed over time whether that means targeting leadership targeting assets and targeting financing that the targeting simpson needs to be done to bring the grass down to size and that the task simply needs to be repeated over time at any rate it's obviously a strategy that doesn't have much imagination doesn't really lead you anywhere the problem is no one in israel has been able to to to find a better alternative um so let me bring up everyone to speed right you know we're almost nearing the top of the hour here in israel i just want to let everyone know it's happened for the past couple of hours now about 300 rockets have been fired towards israel from gaza uh there have been uh at least 22 who have been killed uh not in israel but actually in in the gaza strip from idf responses back 40 have been injured uh the idf now says that 40 rocket launchers and mortars throughout the gaza strip have been eliminated because of uh the idf fighter fighter jets and helicopters the sirens are still going off in the southern part of israel the last one about 15 minutes ago you're looking at live pictures this is the gaza strip this is gaza city on on there are now rocket alerts going off we're being told right now uh give me one moment i'm hearing it now yad morachi we talked about this this is the this is the kibbutz that's right on the israel gaza border uh this is maybe the fourth or fifth time oh and that we've seen they're being attacked it seems as though these are the smaller mortars the smaller missiles rather not the large range because it's more uh how many kilometers away from the edge yeah it's a nightmare being in these places in a situation like this albert and i i can't for better or worse said from experience i've never experienced anything quite like with people in those communities again much closer even than the city of sterot which is a real town but at least a bit further away from the border although also very very close but these these kibbutz are extremely close to the border uh they each home in these kibbutz will have a fortified room and as do many and many we should say in many towns and cities across israel but there it's a place where people are living and we've seen families leave these communities for obvious reasons imagine being with children with children small children a situation like this great uh oh and ultimate thank you very much for joining us i24 news coverage of the breaking story of 300 missiles attacking israel from gaza continues right after the break by midnight tonight thieves will have stolen 2400 vehicles


All right guys, this talk is about challenges observed when testing with the FES tests and block tests and scaling that. So first thing I'd like to request is that please just refer to it as a FES test rather an ex FES test because even at LSF MMS, I've been present at LSF MMS where new file system developers really don't understand and still know that you can use ex FES tests to test all file systems. So I think it would just help to make it generic. Took a poll on Twitter a while ago about how long people think it might take to stabilize a file system and it seems people think it takes about two years to stabilize a new file system. So clearly that's a bit wrong. Takes about like 10 years give or take depending on who you ask, but give or take it takes about 10 years if you're introducing a new file system. So proper file system design is really difficult, right? Really, really difficult. So whenever you're designing something new, just have patience, right? So how about testing though? Can we help in the testing world for stabilizing file systems? So I figured I'd set as an objective many, many years ago to try to help with this problem. And I figured one of the problems that I could tackle was reducing the amount of time it takes to test a file system. So once I had that done, I figured, well, why not also use this to also test adding new block features? So this is why this is now an FS test and block test talk too. So one of the differences with other areas of the kernel is that determinism in FS test and block test is really, really low. And to give you an example, K-unit tests are highly deterministic, extremely deterministic, right? Self-tests in the kernel have higher determinism, but it doesn't mean that there are always going to be, it doesn't mean that you're always going to have success. Sometimes some self-tests like the K-mod test is an example of sometimes you may have issues and you have to run them over and over and over again. FS test and block tests, however, can be extremely non-deterministic but produce really, really catastrophic failures. Give you guys some examples. Well, actually, before I get into examples, I think if there's any takeaway about some of these things, I'd really like you guys to think about this little graph and understand that the time in involvement for testing really needs to be divided properly if we want to take this seriously. So about 25% of the time really should be dedicated towards test design. 25% tracking results, 25% also for reporting bugs. And then 25% also for fixing low-hanging fruit. And I'll describe a bit of what some of these things are. We're, I think, pretty good at test design, and that's it, really. So in order to help with this, obviously I worked on a project called KDevOps. I try to address variability by using KConfig. It basically also addresses bring up, whether or not you want to use local virtualization or use the cloud. And then for management, I basically just use Ansible. But this talk is now about this project. This is about lessons learned from that experience and actually scaling testing and automating it. To give you an example, though, here's a Leap 15.3 failure. For those that don't know, Leap 15.3 also means that it's a SLE bug too because there's binary compatibility between the kernels and user space. So this is just an example where you have an EXT4 failure failing one out of 300 times. So you have to run the test about 300 times in order to get it. When I ask some file system developers how many times have you ran FS tests in a loop? They look at me kind of puzzled because it seems like not many people do that. Well, it turns out if you do run FS tests in a loop, you eventually will get a failure. Here's an example in block tests. Fails about one out of 80 times, for instance, and it produces an RCU stall, CPU stall. And this is a recent one. I'd like to also thank the folks who did the analysis of what likely could fail here. Is Sinchut, I'm not sure how to pronounce his name, is he here, Koa? Is he here? Awesome, thank you, that was really cool. And then Klaus is also a Kimi developer and then he ended up also looking at these issues. And basically, it seems like Kimi's zone reset is super slow when resetting old zones. So that could be optimized a bit. But there's a few lessons that we can learn from this case, right? One is that future optimizations are obviously needed in Kimi for resetting old zones. But the other one is that the false positive CPU stalls are helpful, right?  Here's another example. This is a, let's see, a block O09 failure. This failed one out of 669 times, for instance. And when this was reported, it was kind of like really not understood what the heck was going on. And it took about eight months to really figure out what was going on. Really, it was just like ignored by folks. So this was fixed in 5.12 and Yankara has a series of patches that also can be back ported. But like in Amir's last talk, for instance, of merging stable fixes, I mean granted, it was for falses and for the block layer, it's also complex to merge some changes. So for stable, you can't really merge Yankara's patches as is. It's really complex just to give you an example. So fixing some of these issues in older kernels is really, really difficult. Here's a low hanging fruit example. This one was really odd because it was failing for all these different XFS configurations in really different failure rates. It was just really puzzling. But it was a very consistent type of failure. It was just SCSI debug. Well, it turns out that SCSI debug, if you guys are familiar with SCSI, it's a pain to ask when you're trying to quiet things, right? But long story short is that there was a longstanding kernel module user space issue. You basically tickle anything with the module ref count and basically you just can't remove it. So that was a longstanding issue, present in modules since forever. So that'll eventually be fixed in Kmod with a patient module remover. But still, there's some lessons to learn here. A FAST test and block test should not require modules, right? So as I think folks had pointed out before, you know that we, sorry. But I mean, you can't remove it because if there's still a reference held by the module, which is okay. And I think that's perfectly valid. No, no, no, right. But the thing is that if you want to get to the point where you want to create high confidence and in your baseline, you have to remove the module currently. Doesn't mean that you... I'm not arguing against removing the module. It is if that module has some configuration, that configuration might well keep the module busy. So you first have to clean up the configuration. Of course, of course. Of course, this is totally understood. The problem though is that we expect that this is going to work and it doesn't. And basically all your tests just stop. So it would help also if we just don't require the modules and yes. So yeah, I'm aware of this problem. It's been pointed out several times. So currently the block test, especially NVMe category, they assume to test the module removal because there are so many modules involved when it comes to NVMe or fabrics or just NVMe host and a target. And that interdependency has significant impact on various reference counting we do on the host side and on the target side. So what we can do is to move the test cases to just as the module have come separately or in separate category. So you can skip it. Well, so let's think about this, right? What's really desired is to quiet us. It's not really to remove the module. Removing the module shouldn't really be a requirement. For instance, the null block, right? Added, folks that added config.itha support to essentially just remove stuff, right? That's the way to go. It's because the debug already has that too. Can we do that for the NVMe modules, for instance? No, that's what I'm saying because there are so many reference counting has been done on the host side and a target side for different transports. And when you remove the module, you are 100% sure none of the recent changes are breaking the reference counting mechanism. Are you saying it's impossible? It's not impossible, but it is easy to introduce a bug in that part. That's what I'm saying. That's why module removing and module loading, we made it mandatory. So we can just add separate test cases to test those scenarios where you are sure that there are no bugs in reference counting and leave rest of the test cases where it just assumes that modules are loaded. If members, sort of, because we debug is rather old and strange the way it's configured in that you pass the configuration of the block device that you want to create as module parameters. So it can only be configured at module load time. What if we just change the schedule debug to be configurable via configfs? My understanding was pointed out in the mailing list recently that that support is already there. Maybe the test should be changed to use that, not care about loading it on them. If we have agreement here that that's the way to go, then absolutely. I mean, Kristoff recently had, you know, requested that block test stop requiring modules for instance, right? So that's something to consider here. We just need some consensus that this is the way to go and we just go into it, right? So if we have consensus here, then great. But you're pointing out, though, that in NVMe, we probably have no other option but to remove the module. So if that's the case, and you know, well, the good thing, though, is that the patient module remover is there, right? Why do you need to remove the module, though? Well, what I understand is that they're testing that at the time that you're tearing the module down that you have properly torn down everything NVMe related. So they want to test the reference counting in NVMe itself. That sounds like a test that covers SCSI debug's ref counting. That should be a test of the SCSI debug code. That's not really an NVMe test. No, we don't want to test the NVMe modules. Yeah, and I'm saying that they're not really testing what they think that they're testing. No, it's not only reference counting. We also are free of the work use and resources when we unload the modules, which are global to the transport or to the target. And when we remove that, it does the cleanup. And we are sure that nothing has been broken in the cleanup part because there were bugs that we found in the cleanup part before. So we're talking about two different things and let's not get too far on the weights here. We should be making tests that test the NVMe cleanup path. Those are what those tests are. And then we have this knock on effect thing where just because we happened to remove the SCSI debug thing, it caused test failures. That's not actually part of the test. So let's try to separate these things and make it as easy as possible that we are testing the thing that we care about and not introducing other side effects. All right, moving on. It seems that we have at least some consensus on the SCSI debug front. NVMe, I'll just leave that alone, right? Other issues and challenges? Well, it turns out, at least on FS tests, you have the .bad files and then you have also the .junit file. Turns out, sometimes you'll actually find an error present in .bad files but it's not present in .junit. So if you're processing the .junit.xml file, you probably are not capturing failures too. Likewise, if you're doing it the other way around and only capturing .bad files, sometimes you'll actually see the failure in the .junit file but not in the bad files, for instance. So you actually have to check for both. Blocktis is a bit better but it's new, right? And there's not as many tests as FS says but one of the things that's really nice about Blocktis is that it also captures the .dmedics file as well and I think that we should be doing that in FS test as well. Dead? Yeah, I mean, I think we need to be a little bit clear about what's going on, right? If there is a nnn.bad file but it's not marked as bad in .junit, which probably also means it's not marked as bad when you look at the text output, that's arguably a test bug. Yeah, that's a problem. Right, and we should just fix the test. Yeah, that's a problem. I mean, we can try to make the test runners a little bit more robust but let's just fix the test. Yeah, that's definitely just a bug, right?  Great. Regarding the DMS, FS tests that keep DMS configured. Who's this? Where can... Oh, okay. Ask keep DMS so you have a per test .dmedic file to check. Yeah, and it saves it when there is an error, right? It's because our CI stuff saves it and so you can look at the message when it fails, so. All right, so I think there's no one opposed to adding the .dmedic files to FS test, right? So it already exists. So right now it will generate the file if it detects a warning or a leak or whatever. So like if you look at the ButterFS results, you can see where we have DMS files uploaded to the results website. But you also, there's another option to say always save the DMS files. Got it. So you can turn that on. Sure. But by default, it only generates the DMS if it detects a warning, leak, all these variety of things. Great. And I copied that for block test. The block test does the same thing. I'm pretty sure it'll only save the DMS if it found something bad in there. But I don't have an option to always save it. If you want that, we can add it. Great, great. All right, moving on. So to address the problem of these non-determinism, the non-determinism on a FS test and block test, essentially in KDOPs, you can configure the steady state which is basically how many times do you want to run a FS test or block test, for instance, in a loop. Just to give you guys an idea, it takes for a setting of 100, it takes about five to six days to run that. Ideally, ideally you would, there's comments or questions. What device? What file system? This is all file systems. No, but five, six days you're running on what device? I'm sorry, can you say that again? The FS test run on loops, you say five, six days. What's the underlying device for the test? Oh, so there is a bit of architectural design here that has to be considered. I basically use loopback devices and truncated files and I test on XFS and on Butterfests as backend for the guests. And then also the sparse files are created on XFS and Butterfests. I test on both XFS and Butterfests. It turns out that if you run the FS test in a loop, for instance, on XFS on the host, you get sometimes results that are different than Butterfests. So I'm actually testing for both and I use both XFS and Butterfests to have more coverage. So you're saying XFS and Butterfests in the guests that's running the test or testing XFS and Butterfests in the whole... I'll explain, I'll explain. So you have, let's say there's one server that has data one and data two partitions on the host. Data one, for instance, is XFS. Data two is Butterfests. I then create truncated files on data one to use as NVMe drives on the guest. Then inside the guest, I also have those NVMe drives. I mount them in MKFS using XFS or Butterfests. Okay, that makes sense, thanks. I think I'm gonna guess what question Damien was really asking, or just ask my own. What could we do to get that down from five to six days to two hours? I'm glad you asked, but I think that I have some crazy ideas there. When I said those crazy ideas, some people kinda like, I'm not sure if that'll work, but I have some ideas and I'm not sure we'll have enough time to get to some of those ideas. But what if instead of being crazy, we just threw hardware at it? Yeah, so my question actually, the context was five, six days, 200 times, when I have drives that are so big that it takes a full day to do a single right pass. So I can't even do a full run on one day. That's just where we are at, depending on what. Yeah, I know, I totally understand this is, yeah, you're right, this is totally on a virtualized environment for sure, yes. I have not covered yet direct raw access to devices, but that easily can be done given that you can just use PCI pass through, right?  Would it be possible to just move it into a RAM disk? So in practice, in the worst case scenario for testing all file systems, you need give or take about 50 gigs. Can run it in a RAM disk. What's that? So you can run it in a RAM disk. You can, but here's a funny thing to address your question too. I actually did that, there's no gain in running it in memory. And the reason is that FS test is so slow, it wasn't designed to be parallelized. There's no gain in running it in memory. Personally, I liked run tests going over 16 terabyte in capacity because you can actually catch bugs over the flows with that 4K times 4G, the 16 terabyte. So it'd be definitely great to optimize a fast test to be paralyzed, but I think we need to think about a proper architecture for a fast test.  This is great work, thanks. When you run a fast test and then you establish a baseline, are you running the auto group or are you running all the tests? For which file is this? For XFS and ButterFS, for example. So for XFS, these are configurations that had failures, but pretty much I think there's, I haven't looked into this in a while. I think maybe like eight profiles and each of these basically have different XFS parameters, right? So yeah, pretty much any possible known configuration that is important. The only one that I'm not testing right now, but I will soon is the real time because I'll have an interest in the real time stuff in a bit, but yeah. For ButterFS, I welcome patches. Right now I'm just testing the default. It should be really easy to add new configurations to add support for new test profiles like sections. I call them sections. It's pretty much just a K-config patch. So I think one other thing that's probably worth making sure people understand is it really depends on what your goals are for running tests, right? What I perceive is if you are a QA person who is trying for the platonic ideal of zero bugs, then yes, you may have to do a huge number of baselines and you're interested in bugs that only show up one in 800 runs. At a company, the problem is I could invest a lot of money trying to find those bugs. I don't have the headcount to hire to have software engineers to run down all of those bugs. Right, so. And so I think we need to be very, very clear about what we do, right? I mean, in our environment, we run tests constantly on the hardware that we will actually use in production because those are the bugs we care about, right? Now, I'm not pretending that I'm trying to find all bugs. I'm trying to find the bugs that will matter for my company when I'm running a kernel in production at my company. And so that's just, I have different goals than you do, right? I mean, my goal for that set of tests that I use for work is to maximize bang for the buck in terms of the highest quality kernel that I can afford given the headcount that I am allocated. Totally. And it's a slightly different thing because you can find bugs. It's like, yes, if you told me that there's a bug in EXT4 that only triggers one in 800 times, I will ignore you because I've got bugs that fail more frequently than that. And I don't have the bandwidth to handle the ones that fail 15% of the time, right? And so I think this is really good work. I'm glad that you're doing it, but I think we also need to remember that what may be appropriate for a developer who is trying to validate commits that they plan to send to Linus during a pull request may be different than the sort of QA effort. Yeah, so time is limited, so I just want to move on. And I'd like to say that, yes, you're right, but it basically is, it's a matter of basically management, managing what your priorities are for sure. But what I also want to convey clearly is that it takes resources, as you're indicating, to properly do this and a lot of stuff. So yes, completely. But moving on a bit, so establishing a new baseline for a new file system will take about one to two months. Now, when you don't have a baseline though, a public baseline, just consider it technical debt that we have in the community. Because if we did have that, then we could just move on, right? And as Ted is indicating, it takes time to go and process these failures, right? Who's going to look at them? You know, if you stop every single time and just go try to address the issue, then you can run this loop, for instance, right? So one of the things you have to do then as well is also do a lazy, I'm not sure if this slide now, but I'll just mention now it's a lazy baseline. Basically it means that, lazy baseline just means that once you have a failure detected in at least two types of configurations for the file system that you're testing, you expunge it for all those sections.   And again, this needs to be collaborative. Yes. Could you do a bot, for example, at Plumber's at some conference where you're like, hey, here is how we use KDEF ops as a developer, as a file system developer, for example, or as a VFS developer. I think this would be really useful. Yeah, I did submit my talk to Plumber's, so I will be talking about KDEF ops there and giving a demo. Cool, because I have my hacky own way of running XFS tests, but if I have something where I really have an automatic baseline. Well, so this is also an invitation now that if folks really are interested in collaborating on this front, fortunately my employer has provided a server that we can use to collaborate on this baseline for different file systems. So if you guys do want to collaborate on this, please let me know after this talk and then basically we can move forward with that. But yeah, I'll definitely be giving a talk if it gets accepted to Plumber's about KDEF ops. So yeah, like I said, Stable is also volunteer-based. I know some subsystems do the whole out of stuff and if it works for them, great, but if you have someone like Chinard complaining about stuff then obviously things are not gonna be merged easily to the file system. So we need to do proper diligence and for me, proper diligence is having a baseline that have a confidence of at least 100 loops for FS tests, for instance, for block tests as well. I'm a bit anal with test if you can't tell. So today another issue is that we skip tests today that are not applicable, but we should probably just not skip them. If we know that they should fail, we should actually run them and annotate the failure that we should expect because we're missing an opportunity there to test as well. If we have a consensus here on that, then we'll just go ahead and fix those issues. What do you mean by that? What exactly would you be testing for? Well, one example, you know, one example, for instance, is you shouldn't do a random write on a sequential DNS drive, for instance, but you know, it should fail. Well, I don't wanna crash things, right? But hey, maybe I should test it to ensure that it does fail. That wouldn't mean introducing a bug in your file system coding purpose to test that. What's that? I think at that point you just add a separate test, a specific test for that. Yeah, sure. Okay, so do we not have any possibility of gains to express the failure that we should expect if we run the test? No, I think that that introduces too many, like did it fail because it failed to do the write or did it fail because some other thing failed? When we're talking about that sort of thing, I really rather prefer we go out of our way to make sure the thing that fails failed. Yeah, so if you want an example, for example, for zone FS, I do have such test where I use DD to write a sector that shouldn't be written, then run a write on the file and it should be working, but the file system fails and that's to test the error pass in the file system. But that's not a, that failure is expected and what I'm testing is that recovery is successful. So that's not really the same as what you were saying here. Great, thank you. So one of the last things I'll just mention because I think we're out of time is, yeah, there's desires to also have presentation, right? So I'm hoping someone who does have a nice little shiny presentation for results might be willing to volunteer on some of this stuff. I wouldn't call it shiny, but it's there. Hey, that's better than nothing. It's better than nothing, that's for damn sure, but yeah, I couldn't present that later. Fantastic. File systems track this, but we really ought to have a link somewhere in XFS tests or at a Wiki. So like with ButterFS, I know what ButterFS expects because I have five or six Wiki pages for different servers, what to expect and how to set it up and all that. But every file system, we need to have a central place where I can find DXD4 and all the other file systems wherever they keep their Wiki that describes what they expect.  Let's meet at 4, because there's nothing there and we can kind of hash all this stuff out as a boff and not bore everybody else to death. Thank you.