we will ask you to make those in bold. So the questions is again what is your view on these proposals, anything missing? What is the priority for governments, TCPs and the secretariat and what can we governments and IEA secretariat further to support TCPs in promoting their work? So that takes me to the first area which we have been coming to we have heard in a number of interventions today so what can CERT and working party delegates do? We have heard this proposal or mentioning as well of the value of the national TCP days as a way to gather the TCPs to discuss both priorities of the government but also have a chance to have cross TCP learnings from delegates, building that national community as well among the TCPs and if it makes sense also of course involving other organizations or representatives from your country that participate in initiatives under let's say Clean Energy Mysterial, Mission Innovation or other platforms but also to identify a national TCP coordinator of course to help with these activities but it could also be a focal point both from us from the secretariat but also from a national research institute of course the CERT delegate is in a way overseeing the TCP participation but often quite the senior person could also be identified as someone who can have more dysfunctional role to also be the go-to person to get with the CERT delegate in the country on any TCP matters to strengthen the home organization or the organization in the countries for the TCP participation and a few other things here that you will see on the list but I'll just in the sake of time you will have those in the files that you have received for the meeting and you can go through them at the meeting in the break as well but just coming to the next pillar or the next area of which is TCPs here again of course there is longstanding activities where TCPs are reporting their activities to the working partisan CERT for the annual written briefing there's no intention here of course to add in the briefing but rather see if we can if this the way the communication is today fulfill the expectations from CERT delegates but also more in general government officials trying to understand what our TCP is doing we also know and understand that the process is quite different from how different working parties are operating this it's also taking some time from now until the March meeting to review how the opportunities for streamlining some of these activities further then coming to and for the breakouts again it would be great to have a discussion about the list here of course when we're talking about what TCP can be doing but I think we in particular want CERT delegates to use this opportunity as well to let the TCPs and us know what kind of information you value in particular coming from the TCPs then when it comes to the CERT the longest list but again we're saying here this is just a start English that doesn't mean that all these activities will be selected in then we're trying to see how we can make things in a way with the resources we have and which are the most useful so of course when we're asking the colleagues around the table what can we further do to help in coordination information sharing between the TCPs we understand this is an important task for us and here from now until the March meeting we'll spend a bit more time on thinking how we can use the delegates hub for regularly updating costs for the substantial air and air exchange I also would like to mention that as was mentioned today in the lab this early today or as I said just now it's a many way for us to find ways to communicate the great work of the TCPs the question is how can find an approach that is sustainable over time that suits the different features of the different TCPs knowing that you are very different in the way you operate what type of activities you have some of course have amazing conferences where you bring together the world expertise around your sectors of technologies either so working very closely in processes linked to policy development, building codes while others of course provide insightful research or as we heard this morning as well from many of you are certainly the go-to places when you have any questions about a certain technology but again what's the best format for us to think about how we can share that as well in our external communication if it's through our website, through newsletters or any other communication and here we also now will be in a brainstorming phase from now on until the March meeting so this is you have all this again in this list in the material that we sent out before the meeting the no-takers or the models of no-takers will also have this template so you're in the breakout groups you will go list by list and again it's very important for us to get your feedback on the list and it's something that's missing or what's important and see it and just I'll come to this one let's see if we so I think that's then coming to the trickiest part which is since we are quite a few we're testing now our facilities to organize breakout groups with around 80 to 100 people we have five breakout groups in total I will go through them slowly so you can try to find your names so this is room one, room two is downstairs and then we'll be in two other rooms but I'll in a moment point to my colleagues who will guide you to the room if you don't find your name as I go through the slides they will also on the doors there's some here in the back too we can try to find which room you should be in but everyone who's done in the first on the left side here you can stay here and you will be with Luca who will moderate and together with my colleague Shane who will take the notes and then for the colleagues here on the right you have Simona who will moderate you will go downstairs just right of the entrance you can follow my colleague Casey Michaels who of course many of you know going down to that room then coming to the other breakout group three so you will go to room 0108 which is also on the ground floor where you arrive by the entrance here it will be Christoph from Germany who will moderate my colleague Joyce there's Christoph Joyce so you can follow her down to that room for group four you will be in room 4104 which is you take the elevator or the stairs maybe the stairs, follow Theo who is here which is on the fourth floor and then to the last group which is one floor down of one floor up sorry and here we have Annemarie from Ireland so we are there who will walk together with Jules who is there and again if you didn't find your name have a quick look at the lists this has been a slightly challenging exercise with late registration so you don't find your name we suggest as well that you stay in this room to join this breakout group sorry and for people online we had intention of having a virtual group as well in Den we see there is relatively few people joining online so that's why we recommend that if those colleagues they can actually stay in this room but otherwise if they can also send a written feedback if it's difficult to follow the discussions that will be taking place in this room all right thank you Per any questions before we break off into our separate groups? everyone understands the assignment wonderful maybe you should say something about when being back please come back please come back and please come back I think we have a break at 3.30 right that's correct so 3.30 there's another coffee break so when you finish the motor moderate you feel like the discussions come to a point where it's time for a break please then move into the coffee break which will again be outside here and then we start here again at 4 o'clock with the session on external communication thank you thank you hello everyone in group one my name is Luca and I ask you to move to this corner so that we're a little bit closer together thanks hello and welcome everybody to this breakout session my name is Luca Costiglione I'm the vice chair of the end-use technologies working party and I'm trying to moderate this session Shane is helping me with taking notes and having all the online users with us as well you want to say something Shane? thank you yeah I think I mean this is the core also of the of the meeting that we're having today that the cert was discussing yesterday is how to enhance the communication in between the TCPs between the TCPs at the working parties and the cert and also between the member countries and this is as we all know a very difficult task and the tedious task resource consuming task so we'll try to find out how this can be enhanced a little bit I think we are already moving to slide number two I think we're already on slide two no problem we're very fast so like what's the the purpose for the objective is to review the cert list of proposals for how involved third TCP and the IA secretariat may prioritize activities over the next years to improve communication of the TCP work and we will respond to these questions as we go through and review the suggested activities of what government officials IA secretariat and TCPs could do we have around 15 minutes to discuss per category so we'll try to keep track of that so to start with what is your view of the proposal is anything essential missing what should be the priority actions for the government's TCPs and the IA secretariat so these are the and the second question is how can governments and the IA secretariat further support TCPs in promoting their work so I think we can start with question one I hope everyone is familiar with the proposal and I'm happy to open the discussion maybe I can just start with a relatively simple question I think I think one part of the proposal is that there should be annual briefings to the cert and I'm just wondering how this is related to the annual briefs that we provide to the renewable energy working party would this be the same format or would something substitute the other thing to just streamline efforts and information templates I think this would be something to maybe clarify in the further process I think it's a good question and also depends on the TCP some TCPs report directly to the cert and other TCPs basically report via working parties and I think it is clear for both the IA secretariat and all the TCPs that we want to have a very efficient and streamlined process I mean it's always about reporting what is the minimum required what is important and so on and I think this is key yes maybe one suggestion would be to use those annual briefings as a source of information so to make the best use of it so distilling key highlights from the TCPs featuring them in a report that could be annual since it's an annual reporting and possibly then which would not be that easy distilling kind of high level messages from a system perspective so really showing how all the TCPs are working on different technologies but then how and somebody from I guess the IA secretariat would have to do that without necessarily having to be democratic and picking up on every TCP and everything but like trying to bring together some key messages that emerge that are like a system level yeah look I think in general the idea is is good if it's one say briefing or report that each TCP has to be has to made so and then if you want to use that for both the end-use working party the secretariat and the cert then you might in the template want indeed to distinguish a bit I think the high level information is more for the cert and the details may be more for the secretariat and the end-use working party and I guess it would be less of a burden for the secretariat if the template and the kind of instructions would be as clear as possible because otherwise I indeed think that those reports will contain a lot of information and that you can extract a lot of things out of it but that also will cost resources so the much say pre-prepared and with the template the more that is the more easier it's also for the secretariat to process and to give the right information to the right level I mean I think templates are of course already in place but I mean I think what you suggest is also to have a target group oriented or structured report so you have like a high level policy brief basically where with the key highlights and then you have all the administrative information about the TCP's plus maybe in addition you have a level where you want to communicate also to other TCP's yes but please in the same report so that not a TCP has to make a report for the cert and a second for the secretariat and a third for other TCP's and then the template will guide TCP's okay these headlines they will be cut out for the cert so please only headlines and so for very I think that need not be too detailed but some guidance on the on the levels and where the information goes to will have but please one report not free I can say confidently on behalf of cert that we would want there to be a consolidated that reporting structure yes I think the in parallel with the TCP's providing an annual report of activities which is kind of I presume we're talking about some summary in short it'd be similarly useful to get something from the working parties and certs that can be shared with the TCP's because I'm conscious that the information flow and it comes true in some of the feedback the information flow is seen as one way and I think the TCP's would probably engage better with certs and the working parties if they had a better understanding of what their role is what they do and again I'm not talking about additional work because I presume there's some kind of reporting that's been done anyway by the working parties and cert but some summary version of that that can be shared because I think these and it builds on what's been said these reports can be used for multiple purposes because it also is a way of course then of showing the value of the IEA work and the cert, the TCP's etc so it can be used for different dissemination means but certainly I think a version of a summary that's made available to the TCP's would just help in terms of this two-way flow information, thanks Yes, I think that's a very valuable remark because I mean we ask about how to align what is being done in the TCP's with priority of member countries and the CE and certs and this is difficult to achieve if you don't have this kind of bi-directional information flow and yes I mean maybe we hear some other cert delegates what they think about that Try again Actually just to bring a slightly different perspective because I'm not as familiar on some of the internal communication things but I think one of the priorities that we could be working towards is building the profile of the work of the cert outside the direct kind of research areas and outside of this kind of group of people but also wanting to recognize that the proposals are great and we think all of these things will certainly help us on our way that they will take resourcing so I think it seems really important that we work out how to do this with the least impact on the people power but then also work out which parts of them are really going to need some dedicated funding towards as well just to consider that and just with my hat on that works in mission innovation and the clean energy ministerial as well maybe thinking about a way of being more structured in how TCP's meet and interact with those missions and initiatives that are also doing work either it be a regular part of your meetings or making sure that like if you're not already attending the Sam and my ministerials each year that you do because it's that really great convening moment that's just a couple of thoughts on the external side Maybe it's a little controversial but I was thinking I was struck this morning by the fact because we have a direct exchange with the third delegate it's the first time and I was struck by the fact that some day some third delegate are not very aware of what is inside the TCP what is the work and I was thinking about the structure to have three layers working party cert and no TCP working party on cert and I think there is some drawbacks because the fact that we have an intermediate layer is something very heavy and I don't know if one solution could be that the delegate in the working party will be the same as the cert because in this case the knowledge is easy to share but generally speaking I don't know for countries but for France it's different people they are not very motivated for that and the result is that there is no transmission of information towards the cert so I speak about internal communication and if you add the fact that we have many external initiatives like you say because in the right-of-hand field we have 20 initiatives more than 20 and the fact that it's different people in the mission innovation in the SAM in the IPHE etc at the end the information is not going well through this different so at least we need to have at the high-year level a very simple structure I think because we have too much things outside and of course I will speak later on the link between TCP and mission innovation because mission innovation is more focused on this but it's another topic but I just wonder how we can improve this structure of course we can think about why we need a working party maybe we put on the table but okay I think it's one thing we have to think about because for me it's a harder I think it's an important comment because I mean of course the structure with the levels of TCP working parties and the idea of the working parties is to facilitate the work of cert and to help and support and even like support the communication but it's true what you say like in particular ideally it could be that it's the same delegates it's not the case for my country either and it's difficult to have delegates for all the working parties and motivate them and then it turns out that it actually turns into a bottleneck of information flow instead of facilitating the information flow sorry I forgot something and just another drawback is that you have some silos renewable etc and I know for hydrogen I speak this morning that I am not only renewable and so to have only one body we'll facilitate the because we can speak about with all TCP and to the cert also it's another drawback sure so I'm thanks for that I think those that's really valuable and I think you've probably surfaced a lot of the things that pair and the task force heard in the course of doing the interviews and the research for the review certainly on the on the working parties I think that's that's something that has been heard very clearly is wanting to make it less of sort of an administrative layer and make it something more value add so I think as a first step some of the principles that sort adopted yesterday I think we are hopeful that they will help they're not going to fix everything on the issue of common reps I think it's going to depend on national governments in the way that they are structured certainly I know it would be very difficult to have one person sort of in my office for example who's attending cert and all of the working party meetings you know being in Canada and we're not an international office we are the office that coordinates R&D for energy in Canada so trying to do all of that with one person would probably actually lead to the opposite of what you're hoping to get but I think that it does depend on national structures and that might work well for some versus others but I think that there might be more structural or process-based I know you're talking to get away from process so I don't mean this in a bad way but more practices that we can adopt that will help to address some of these things but I think just hearing about how they are issues is super helpful on the broader international initiatives all I can say is I know that your area in particular has suffered I think it's something we all of us who have worked in the international space have lamented I think at various times the emergence of new initiatives sometimes seemingly disconnected or not as connected as they could be to other things I think that's why at least with some of the main initiatives that are going on I mean Peta mentioned innovation and clean energy ministerial I think there are probably a couple of others that often come up in this context but I think those of us involved in this space if we can just keep trying to make those connections and keep trying to explain why it's necessary to be complimentary I mean I know I'm preaching to the choir Paul but for what it's worth those are my thoughts thank you well for my means thanks for the input and also a little bit in the sake of time I would already direct to the second question which is also very much related to that like how can governments and the secretariat support the TCP's in promoting their work and it's not just promoting their work but probably communication in general and exactly making TCP's inform them about other initiatives and things that are going on what are your expectations there thanks two reflections on this building on things that have have come up first reflection is I think it's very positive to see the statements around particularly mission innovation clean energy ministerial I do remember I don't know if it was one of the early TCP gatherings but I mentioned work we were doing on one of the clean energy ministerial initiatives and I was asked why we weren't doing more engagement with other TCP's which was a valid question but it kind of showed an insider perspective that seems to have have moved on but I do think I mean we do support one of the clean energy ministerial initiatives on long-term energy scenarios but it's probably a lesser known part of what we do so I do think this is where the secretariat could help in terms of mapping the because I'm certainly not aware of the various TCP engagements with the different mission innovation and clean energy ministerial initiative so I think that mapping would be a would be a suggestion the second point relates to um this question of of um this this national um kind of harm not harmonization but communication flows or synergies across what what we're doing and I think the first proposed thing this identification of a national TCP network coordinator I presume it's in each country can help to to um at least provide some sense of coherence or at least an information gathering perspective on that in terms of again to have a sense so the TCP's and cert and the working groups have one point of contact in countries if that's what the purpose of that person is have one point of contact where they can actually find out about the different threads of a country or working party engagement with with the TCP's and finally the there's another it's just a small point on one of the proposals that says organize TCP national days bringing together all the national TCP representatives which is great idea we had one in Ireland in 2018 it was very useful but that was organized there's no time frame given is it you know I think it would be improved by having a kind of a target time frame is it annual is it every two years because effectively we've done one so we've organized that we've ticked that box but it was in 2018 we could do with another one and so just suggest a time frame be put on that recommendation thank you yeah just a couple of sorts from here too one is about reporting and I used to read a lot of reports from EU funded projects and and this is not always fun so it's the reports are not making the trick themselves when they are too short they are not necessarily interesting and when they are too long then it's difficult to read them and catching kind of the the essence from those so so you know I have I'm double hearted about this there's more reporting especially knowing that some of the TCP's do struggle with the administration side of the of running the TCP's TCP's require a lot of administration I attended a few weeks ago the ISGUN the X-committing I mean terrible in the sense it was three days of admin talk basically we we not always do you know even in the even with commission standard it's it's it's a lot of budget administration and the communication and then interestingly communication has been one of the most controversial thing that it is just understaffed people there is one person who was hired to do that and he was overloaded and and exhausted and and a merge of breakdown basically so it's it's not it is not so so easy to to sow this issue I would I wanted to play and kind of take up Paolo Frunkel's point from from the previous session and when he said that use the working parties invited the TCP's use the working parties as your channel as your gateway to to to to put forward your findings and your messages towards dessert because my experience with the cert is that you know the profile of the delegates says very a lot and and you know the work coming from the TCP's it's it's very technical it's very sector based and the delegates won't be able to reflect that variety of topics that that do come from the direction of the TCP's they won't appreciate they may appreciate those their heart and their experience closer to and they will ignore the rest so that the the working parties are quite well placed if they work well to to kind of to articulate the information coming from the TCP's and and formulate them in a way that is relevant for the for the cert and and maybe a last point that relates also to the to the second part to the second question is that if the IE could kind of track the input the references the contributions coming from the TCP's used in the IE products and reports and because I understand that they are being used the IE desk officers are in contact with the with the TCP's they do pick up some of the literature that that the TCP's produce but if that could be tracked if that could be also reported and follow up towards the cert that would be kind of a demonstration because what what we very often in the ministries I guess and that the governments we do read the IE reports because you have the IE's stem there it's kind of a quality assurance but if we can see that what is the TCP contribution to those that but I think I get great value thanks maybe one last comment yes first maybe a general remark on the guidelines and it was triggered by the remark of my neighbour that say organized national TCP's days is not not so specified I would be very cautious with further specifying these guidelines because then you come into a kind of legal text and I don't think this is meant to be a legal text but a guideline and a stimulus for all the say the adversaries to take action what you can do of course is monitoring how these guidelines have been played out and if you then see that in in three years time say all TCP's have maybe zero because they did it already in 2018 or organized one TCP day that might then be a reason for for further action but as a start don't try to make a legal document out of this that I think will work counterproductive and the second point is the structure I indeed think also that the working parties can be very useful but then especially in their administrative function and that is reporting and we will come to that tomorrow the review process that kind of thing and therefore it's of course good that working parties are consist of TCP's with more or less the same topic but if we try to add a kind of cross cutting function to the to the working parties and that has been tried I think a bit in the past and then then the trouble begins because several TCP's will then be in several working parties and it will get confused and therefore I like very much as said the coordination group and especially the new one which is limited in time focused on indeed the cross cutting topic and there I think the the bulk of the content or the focus of the content should be and there of course please no administrative stuff thank you very much for for these remarks I think related to the to the TCP networking days countries I think this is very country specific some countries are engaged in a lot of TCP's order or only in a few some have more resources some have less so I also think it doesn't make sense to to specify whether this has to happen on an annual basis or a different period and I think it is important to comment that that you made that the role of the working party is also to translate elevate and condense the output of the TCP's but it's not an easy task yeah maybe one last comment thank you I thought with the sort of introduction of the new TCP coordination groups then couldn't they serve some of the role of the working parties because if you've got both those organizations then it seems to me that's quite a lot of work and another bit of bureaucracy and my other query was about the national TCP sort of networks and days because you know we're all international organizations so I wasn't quite sure what purpose they would serve I mean this is great all meeting together like this but I'm not sure what the value would be especially as we're based in the UK and the UK government hasn't been a member of our TCP for years so I'll be perhaps we're unique in that setup but I'm not sure what the value would be of this national layer thank you thanks I'm happy to share what I think the value is both as a cert member and as a representative of a national government we've done one so far in Canada we intend to do more we're members of I think maybe 24 TCP's primarily government representatives but not exclusively and I think it is valuable as certainly as a cert member but in our other undertakings with the IEA and other colleagues internationally to understand sort of the full range of work that is happening internationally where there is collaboration so essentially what it is is the the representatives of so in our case obviously Canadian representatives of all of the TCP's that we're members of come together we did it virtually because it was during the pandemic but I know other countries have done it in person as well so you come together sort of for however long you think is needed which is probably dictated by how many TCP's you are a member of perhaps and you know we we developed a program that allowed for connections between the TCP's so where there might be areas of work that are are cross cutting or related but they maybe didn't know that each other was were doing work in this space so to connect on that level also helpful sort of as the coordinating person or office responsible for all of the TCP's to understand the range of work so that when I come to a cert meeting or I go to other meetings internationally I understand sort of where we are active and then I think that the other piece is just to it helps orient around priorities so I mean I'm not going to tell TCP's what to do or not do but it gives me a sense of are we active internationally in the R&D space in the areas where we think we need to be in terms of like other gaps for example are we hitting all of the priorities something has emerged is there is there already an existing avenue we've already talked about all of the initiatives or the initiatives that tend to pop up from time to time centered around sometimes ministerial meetings or otherwise it's useful to be able to know that these things exist to say hey you know this already exists let's make sure we're not duplicating or what I like to do a lot of the time here's my secret is sometimes we'll get pushed to put things in an international agreement I often point back to multilateral mechanisms like MI like the TCP's like SAM where I know that there's a focused work plan in a particular area it's just it's really really useful to be able to do that to avoid new things popping up so hope that helps that's just a Canadian perspective yeah sorry can I come back I just misunderstood I thought you meant all the TCP's that were based in a particular country getting together yeah thank you well I think it depends on the way how it is organized but I mean we also organized in Switzerland we also organized those national TCP days and for instance we also invited a representative from the IEA to inform us about high-level initiatives that are going on and so on I think that's the the exact purpose to coordinate and enhance the communication again I think we have to move to the next slide and so there are some I mean we already discussed this now to a large degree so these are proposed activities of certain working party delegates the I think the identification of a national TCP network coordinator I think for a lot of countries is already quite big task and then the national days regularly assessing national participation in TCP's and alignment with national priorities sharing information and best practices and TCP participation administration facilitating communication between national representatives of international platforms in clean energy including the TCP's MI and SEM that just was mentioned then then of course other suggestions from the group I give you some time to reflect on this maybe a couple of very concrete suggestions to translate this into into specific actions this issue of sharing information and best practices on TCP participation administration I think if back to back with for instance group meetings there was a half day booked for TCP's to exchange information maybe with the IA facilitating a little bit like clusters of TCP's they have more synergies would make I think would increase the value of participating in those meetings for chairs and secretaries and whatever whoever is representing there the TCP and then maybe a simple suggestion if there are TCP national days organized if the SEM and MI share plus focal points points of contact could be involved I think there would be idea so that there is really a complete picture since it's all IA's facilitated they say activities then you really have a complete picture of what's going on and possible synergies just one reflection to add to what Amanda said about the value of these TCP national days the other thing I found was useful in our case was that it it highlighted the value of the investment nationally in TCP activities because it showcased some of the outputs and impacts in terms of other suggestions I've mentioned already this question of whether it be useful for how to have a cert and or working party briefing reports annual reports to TCP's and another one it reflects on something I mentioned earlier and it's probably here but I'm not sure how to articulate it properly but I think there is a broader usefulness in government officials in particular to build or develop mechanisms for absorptive capacity for increasing their absorptive capacity for what's coming from the the kind of analytical community or in this case from TCP's that's a very broad thing to say so you know in terms of breaking it down into suggestions well maybe as a broad thing I think it's something that might be useful for cert to reflect on but in terms of some of the specifics we heard earlier about the TCP secondment to the IEA but equally you can have government officials I don't know if that would work government officials being opening up that opportunity for a secondment in other directions you know government officials working on a particular task or a particular area of policy to have a mechanism where they can directly engage and kind of absorb that from a TCP as I'm not sure of the structure for that but secondment is possibly the wrong word but some way of that bridging I suppose to explore better ways of bridging between TCP's and the working party delegates and cert and it's really to try and increase this absorptive capacity of the policy system to be able to draw on the analysis that the TCP's are generating and make use of it thank you any other comments or do you see anything particularly missing wonder if there should be some feedback on the stuff that's going to and fro because they're still I can't see anywhere where it actually says okay we provide this they provide that but there's nothing that I can see which there's an assessment by the recipient of whether that actually was what they wanted whether it worked and whether there's some subsequent refinement of that otherwise we could chug on with the same thing until we meet again say in the next two, three, four years and then discuss like this and make a change but it could be a bit more responsive than that maybe more feedback yeah yeah I think that's a really good suggestion I think these days it's you know everything takes time nothing is easy but it's relatively easy to do a survey periodically just in terms of exactly these things is it working is it what we need do you need more of this less of this any other suggestions I think that's a fantastic idea so thank you I mean there's one formal as well it's of course when you have to request for extension then you typically get an extensive feedback but I guess it would be helpful to have this also on a more regular basis and in a different way not just that the whole program is is X I mean but you just get specific feedback on results actually indeed that I don't think that these were key recommendations with regard to the network coordinator and DCB national days because for communicating from TCP is to to policy level is actually the interpersonal relations are key from that point of view and and as long as there is no contact between the third delegate or the working party delegate and the TCP then it's very difficult and once this is contact is there and the whole community knows that who is who and who can expect what from from those persons then it it becomes more more feasible and we actually just last week we organized the TCP meeting with all the commission colleagues involved in in TCP's and it created some anxiety at the beginning because I mean some of the TCP representative so that what are these guys wanting from us they say should they never talk to us why is this invitation now but in the end it was a good dynamic there and and and then you know through this because because you don't within the same country or organization that that's that the trust is there that you are on the same side let's say that the background knowledge is is also there that what is needed in in that organization or government so you can you can tailor the information that's coming from the TCP for the needs of the specific government so this interpersonal relations I think in both regard key and those frameworks cannot cannot have to do can I ask you then one thing so you know like in all these committees with the TCP's chairs are changing on a quite regular basis delegates are changing on a quite regular basis so how do you think are there ways to improve this kind of interpersonal relations and many times also I think this probably worked for the IEA and the Secretariat to really have just an organic RAM so people know who is in charge of what at a certain time and that you have points of contact yeah I mean that that's a fair question I mean it depends we do have colleagues who are involved for decade long in the same TCP so that also exists and and what on the other hand I recognize that especially in my unit in the in the PVSP TCP I know that DG energy colleagues have been changing all the time basically and and yeah these are framework conditions that you that you can't do much about it actually because because that's just the nature of public administration and people moving on if there is not anything else then let's move on to but excuse me just to add but exactly from that point of view these structures can help because if you organize those meetings regularly then you will be able to you know keep up with those personal changes if you don't organize those then you keep up losing those contacts okay so now we come to the activities proposed for the IEI secretariat so prepare briefing material about the TCP network the role of certs it's working parties and TCPs update the delegates hub regularly with information improve the visibility of TCPs on the IEI website communicate the success stories and results of the TCP strong on past experiences newsletters one pagers today in the lab tomorrow in energy organize webinars relevant to such as the management of the TCPs to learn from each other organize the TCP universal meeting every two years at a minimum other suggestions from you so that's quite a bit of activities yes maybe as a general point better few and have continuity then a lot of these and having them say two newsletters and then think well this might not be a good idea and drop it and go to something else because I can remember that there were at some point in time newsletters but they suddenly disappeared and picking up on on the foregoing discussions it is I think a characteristic of international organizations that the cycle and the time to get these interpersonal relationships is much longer than in a national or situation or in an organization so the communication should be tuned to that longer cycle and not and not say to a hit and run stuff so that's yeah that may be not so easy but yeah this should be certainly on a say five-year plan basis and then choose what you want to do and then stick to that for a number of years so that people can get used to it and and value it maybe maybe on the same point I think the IEA had a long time the open energy bureau at home which has disappeared I don't know exactly why but I think that seemed to me like one communication channel that was quite helpful to communicate also TCP results we have usually advertised our conference and I agree that having newsletters can be also and quite additional effort but something like that for the whole for the whole IEA shouldn't be too much and I think it's really missing a bit I don't know why it disappeared probably just a whiskers question but I would propose maybe to think about starting again with it and there was a but there was a kind of newsletter the so-called open energy bureau which was sent out I don't know maybe every month or so and there were news from IEA results and TCP results and so on so so that will be your expectation that the IEA secretariat provides a newsletter with IEA activities plus also information about selected TCP outputs like in I think this is also key to have like one newsletter I mean every TCP typically has a newsletter but you do not want to as a third member probably do not want to subscribe to 50 newsletters and this is really helpful I think I'm trying to think of I see a lot of it would be helpful to understand even more I think like what the what would be helpful to you to have in the newsletters so because I've heard a few like I have a few different ideas but I also don't want to read my interpretation into what you're saying so I think there's obviously one objective I assume would be to share information and news about TCPs with other TCPs but also with cert and the secretariat I would assume a second objective or category of useful info would be sharing news from the IEA secretariat and cert as has been said out with TCPs and then maybe there's I'm guessing there might be a third category of information which might be like useful other useful things that are happening that are handy for the community to know is that I don't want to go too far off and then my the related point I had is I know there is a delegate tub that the IEA runs that all TCPs have access to for their TCP documents I know as cert members we have access to it for our meeting documents and relevant information I think we can look at some TCP info as well I wonder if there's a way of better leveraging that delegate tub to make sure that there is the right access and the right information sort of pairings to maybe reduce the need of preparing sort of a formal newsletter not that it couldn't be there but I think if you're in boxes anything like mine sometimes things get lost in there if emails are coming in with newsletters from different places and it might be handy just to know that once a month this is going to be updated with this type of information and I can go there at any point in time and see what the most current is just a thought maybe what is missing is social media so a newsletter can be hard to sustain over time and experience shows that there was a case in the past while for instance of course not for all TCP outputs but for major reports that are in line with IEA's priorities if they could be picked up by the IEA and social media of course I would make more justice to those reports and have the feeling sometimes we've been in the IEA by NGTCP thinking about how we make justice to this incredible wealth of information that we produce and we don't have the means to do that effectively in this very complicated world where it's with a lot of voices and a lot of inputs that we get from everywhere and I think it's a problem that all TCPs face so but maybe all together and with the IEA help if the website is improved and if we have more of a systematic way of as I mentioned before maybe if we because I think we talked a lot about how to improve communication to the working parties and to cert but the world out there doesn't probably even know what the cert and the working parties are it's a very internal communication which is key and fundamental but if we want to I think make justice to everything that we do here we need to make sure that this technical information is communicated and is mainstreaming to the debate then somebody has to pick it up and our own websites don't have the capacity to sustain that and to have that impact so if IEA can pick up things and when a report on a certain topic is produced if they can also make reference to other relevant TCP reports that have been produced recently of course anything that can be done in that direction would be a great help Thank you very much I think this is a very important comment but of course it also it is a political issue because like a report of TCP is not necessarily the opinion of the IEA and so you cannot just use the IEA channels to promote the TCP work but I guess it's also within the scope of the work of the CERT and the working parties to figure out how this can be improved and I think what you said I think probably sometimes it's best to have both of two worlds to have a newsletter but have that information also on the delegate top Maybe just sometimes newsletters today are basically just a summary of headlines and links and then you can click and go to the news and I don't think that really is a lot of work I would suspect that nowadays you might be even able to do it with a little bit of artificial intelligence and I think then it could be a good means of getting informed when there is something new on the delegates up otherwise I would have to go there and simply this activity also sometimes get lost so it could be an easy way to maybe improve the communication I was too fast Yeah, no, no, no, I don't do that There is an additional breakout session about external communication and I think this is a big thing and but you need a coherent strategy it's really a coherent strategy that is required Do you see any additional sort of activities that the IA secret secretariat could engage in to support facilitate the work? Yeah, thank you It's actually not an additional one I'm just looking in the slides I would like to stress on the fourth point here about the success stories of TCP's and then the one pagers because I represent a ministry here and Dufani is quite a new member in IA like two years or so and we're getting to know what TCP is about what they're doing in your work and there's so much information about so much TCP and especially for those ones which had decades-long work and sometimes it's really hard for me to transmit what TCP is about to my colleagues even rather to my ministry because he always gave this policy impact question so what's the policy impact of technology? What's the policy impact of in this case TCP? So sometimes it's hard so I think that's such a format it could work and maybe it's an expectation both from the secretariat and TCP's to think about in addition what you achieve and what results artists and update on one pager or what you're working with and what you have achieved we have an example in another field we have a cooperation with Nordic Energy Research the Nordic Council of Ministers Agency for Funding Energy and we collectively fund energy-related R&D studies so in the last two years they were producing excellent results but the communication part was really really difficult but then we started asking them that in addition to their full reports of findings and one pager is produced and I think it worked it's much easier to transmit this to our political management so that's our results and why is it important? So then we had an answer so maybe it could work here as well Thank you Maybe in line with that and to connect with the foregoing point where there was we talked about reporting and the different levels if you have a good basis of reporting then that can be a source a good source for a newsletter and then as somebody said then of course you need to put resources into it and I very much doubt whether I would trust AI to do that but maybe with the help but then at least you have a kind of strong and regular basis where you can also which you can say disseminate in different formats and the delegate hub is then one but there it's more like an archive and passive the newsletter is more active and maybe there are other and if you have the good basis then it's more easy to disseminate that in different formats Thank you just one comment so organizing webinars would be very useful but not only for the management of the TCP and the current TCP participants but also for potential participants in Hungary we are not active in TCP I know only one participant but these webinars would be very useful for them to gain information from the first hand and to know good practice so I think it would be very useful Thank you I mean you're referring to webinars to reach out to potential new member countries and inform them about TCP work the TCP work Yeah Yes Just a very minor comment regarding the TCP universal meeting every three years is fine but I wouldn't say this as a minimum I would not propose to have it more frequently Thanks I think everybody agrees I guess we move on to the next slide so that we still have a little bit of time for those things so now we're coming to the work of the TCPs I mean of course provide an annual written briefing provide status updates on the request of CERT or a working party provide inputs to the IAEA secretariat's activities such as newsletters and one-pagers I mean this is also related to what we just discussed before such communication channels do not work if they're not feeded with input then invite and involving CERT or working party delegates as well as IAEA desk officers in XCO meetings establish communication with initiatives under the other international platforms like SAM or the ministerials and other suggestions again One suggestion would be to include automatically include the TCPs in the peer review of reports related to that technology I think as of now it's done on an individual basis it's up to the analyst or to the author of the report to liaise with relevant TCPs but I'm aware occasionally which that person was not even aware necessarily of the existence of the TCP or the work that the TCP was carrying out so I think having that as a systematic thing would allow the TCPs not necessarily to get the recognition of the work but to have the work mainstream into the main IAEA reports I'm just reflecting on the fourth bullet point there that invite and involving CERT and working party delegates as well as the desk so the desk officers are already invited to XCO meetings I suspect that the CERT and we working party delegates if they attended a full XCO meeting they it's a big ask so I wasn't sure what was and maybe it's either refining or reflecting on it because it would be useful maybe to invite a CERT or working party delegates to a specific part of the XCO meeting if there's something of use that can be exchanged I suppose because we have the mechanisms where where the TCPs report and attend and report to working party and CERT meetings so it is useful I think to have that flow in the other direction but I think it would be worth thinking about how to do it in a way that's actually useful for both and not painful for both thanks yes I think this is a good comment I think no CERT member or active in the working party can take part in a lot of XCOs at the same time but for instance I took part in an HEV XCO activity which was particularly focused on just the the next strategic work plan so where you really discuss the strategy of and what's going to happen next I think such kind of meetings there may make sense but of course not when you go through all the XCO tasks and through the administration just to pick up on that I agree with you Brian and I'm guessing that that was not the intent but I think it's just in crafting agendas for example think through other areas where either the IEA desk officer or CERT or working party delegates where either it would be useful for you for one of those people to attend and hear something or if it would be useful for you to have a report out on anything that had happened whether at CERT or in the IEA secretariat or what have you I think it's more just keep that in mind Yeah I think also here there is a differentiation between I think it's always useful and in 4E we have that as a kind of default agenda item to get a report from the desk officer and we also always like the desk officer to be present whereas indeed CERT and working party delegates that would be I guess death by attending EXCO meetings so that indeed would need to be reserved for more the strategic issues so that would be good to differentiate further first three bullets again I think these are all of these I think is or could be fine if it's clear structured and there is a clear say expectation management towards the TCP what can be expected at what time so the annual written briefing I think that is very clear on the positive side every TCP knows it's also known when it comes but when I read a possible status updates or request of the CERT or a working party when do they come and what is the response time that you that you then expect and there it could become cumbersome and such the same as input to the secretariat's activities and that's why in the foregoing slide I pleaded for having a stable good basis where others could find the information which is both I think efficient for TCP's and for the secretariat and of course if there's good relationship which I hope there is between the desk officer and the TCP then of course the desk officer can always send an email or phone or we need information on blah blah blah and that's yeah but please with the first three bullets try to make that yeah as structured and predictable as possible and also the say the last one above other suggestions this could be a very broad and resource intensive task and that is also where TCP's are a bit shy of and backing if they are expected from their budget to do all of these communications because that can be very resource intensive plus I guess many times for this particular task it would be helpful to have support to establish the connection to the initiatives I think with the provision of reports and briefings like the first three bullets I think the bullets number one and two are of course that's sort of mandatory what you have to do but I think the bullet number three is also the chance to use the IEA channel to communicate but I guess it could be facilitated in the way that the secretariat informs that newsletters are planned other kind of information material if you would like to contribute information for that so that could be facilitated yeah thanks so I think what I heard is you're busy I know the IEA secretariat is also busy and so it's a plea to make the format of the request for information as clear and as succinct as possible and I just wanted to reiterate I can't remember who was making the point this morning but I know we talked a little bit about you know the point of some of this is to help us and help the IEA secretariat help TCP's in terms of communicating messages out and up including to ministers and so I think it's a chance to put in your own words especially that third bullet what are the really sort of the concrete headline message that you would want to get across because I think you don't want to leave that in somebody else's hands like if I'm the TCP I want to make sure that I'm in there crafting that message if I'm writing something about my office I want to be the last word or the last person who looks at it and make sure that it's completely capturing what I intend and so I just wanted to say I completely support the idea between or of being as clear and as helpful as possible in the way that we're asking for the information but I just wanted to maybe underline that the objective here is is to help spread the message of the TCP's and to help TCP's so I think as we heard this morning I think ultimately the more clear the message can be you know the more it resonates with people like ministers the better the chance that that at some point translates into into you know things like additional funding a short comment on that exactly what you said that you want to be the last person that sees the message that you sent that can be an issue because in an Exco if that is really and I don't know how formal other TCP's are but if that is practiced then it will take a long time before any message is formally issued so that can be a problem and in practice we had such a thing with the joint TCP work which there were say a number of work of the TCP combined in one IEA report and I can remember that there was I think it took a couple of weeks and with a lot of fine-tuning because before every TCP had officially agreed to say a half-page summary and so there and there maybe it could be good to split things that TCP's may input something to the to the secretariat but it's the secretariat's responsibility to reformulate maybe and send it out and also clear that that is then the IEA's responsibility and not the TCP's and that I think that will speed up things because otherwise yeah that you might need to wait half a year before you get anything out to but try to be quickly have to wrap up and I just wanted to to clarify like I said that I work in a bureaucracy I understand that I was talking about the third bullet which I understand to be providing input so you're providing like a paragraph or a blurb or a page or something on your stuff over so that's what I was talking about that input thanks so I think we just quickly go to the last slide and that that that would address mostly now search delegates country representatives so what what you would consider the highest value in reports on TCP activities like in the annual briefings well what is it what do you find really important or what is missing I just I think from a the certain the working party delegates the important information is more about the maybe the research outcomes and the next steps as much as the kind of list of reports or the in-depth kind of analysis which is great for the technical community to read but yeah we need you to spoon feed us sometimes and also it'd be great to know about who contributed to the project I think part of some of the cert delegates that we're spoken to were all on the same journey with TCPs and trying to work out who from our own countries that you're working with engaging with and so it's actually really useful to say here's a report and then also to know kind of some of the specific inputs to that so we get a better understanding of the landscape but the first part's the more important one in terms of what's what's the outcomes and next steps from this this research you've yeah we now understand this so what so you would like to have a policy brief and the highlights or a hybrid or something that's maybe says these are the things that maybe as policy people you should you should consider or the implication of this from a technical perspective is you know where this could go from here sure I was a fan to the second point interesting like this like the TCP network is so large there's so many tasks so many operators so many participants that I think for a lot of countries they they simply don't have to overview they don't even know what kind of institutions in their country are active in in in the TCP's and in what way and yeah I mean this is of course also additional work for the TCP's to somehow summarize that in an annual report any other comments here and then I think we can all go and coffee yes yes I have one comment maybe also like what assumptions are underlying the report I think would also be quite valuable like what is the report based on like what is the yeah basically the assumptions if that's clear I mean I think that's that that's quite specific I mean when you make scenario modeling then of course you have a lot of assumptions when you report technical experiments it's it's probably less but I mean like the I think that's a problem the nature of an annual report it's not a scientific paper so it's it's already condensed but it's not the brief so you have to find the right format last comment so briefly I think on the one hand there is value in knowing the international cooperation that's going on so I think someone has already eluded to that that just recording at that government level that what are those multilateral engagements that anyone is involved in and that it's working and it's meaningful I think that's one valuable information then the second is is directing I mean the the information and reports coming from the tcps are not always relevant for the third delegate but the third delegate must find the people his colleagues in the relevant units and and divisions for whom it is relevant and and for those colleagues it can be even detailed information because that's their job and they want to have detailed well-founded information the you know the slug words the the the headlines are not enough for police making for those who are drawing up legislation regulation whatever they want to have the substantive part of the information and then maybe the last point it relates to the previous slides that just one good example about from the is gone tcp about links to other international platforms that in is gone we have kind of a table with liaison liaison officers for the various other international platforms and though usually those are colleagues who are involved in those other activities too so we can use those channels kind of actively to to align messages and activities i think that's a that's a good practice thank you very much i i think that's quite a few good suggestions and i mean there's always a room for improvement and i think it also reflects what you said at the very beginning that reports and briefings you should always address specific target groups so have it both have have like a short highlights policy brief and then also have in-depth information if the expert then really wants to go into the detail okay so if somebody still has a very important comments they would like to make then i leave the floor open and otherwise i think we can start with the coffee break if i'm not mistaken thank you okay everyone i think we'll get underway all right welcome back hope you had a chance to grab a coffee maybe a cookie have some good conversation during the break i hope i hope that the first session of the afternoon was useful as you know that one focused on the internal side of communications within the tcp certain network but we're going to focus for the balance of the afternoon on external communications i'm going to hand it over to paul our french cert delegate and also the representative from bolt of attack power systems at the end of the day to run us through the next session thank you mander so now that everyone got warmed up with workshops on internal communication we're we're now looking at external communication so i prepared some introductory remarks you're no less than than 39 tcps and you're all a bit different working on providing technologies and policy recommendations so important in the fight against the climate change so each of your tcps decide within your excos with some guidance by the oversight structure on what should be worked on as a priority this afternoon is about better delivering better communicating on the results of your work it's on improving the impact of communication making sure that what you're all been working on so hard lends well with the intended audiences so i was very happy to learn during the coffee breaks that because we send a big package of slides as homework so to speak and some of you have actually read through 106 pages so this afternoon there will be a lighter version that will be will be presented so your 39 tcps and you're all a bit different like i said some of you have really pinpointed your offering for instance to the scientific community and but most of you i think have broader target groups which required requires sending different messages to different groups of people so i represent the difference agency for ecological transition at them and we're involved in many tcps but with the ministry we were having a hard time getting a good overview of its outcomes and i guess that we're not the only one so the technical reports that are being produced are often a bit difficult to access they're quite scientific for one and the websites of some of the tcps are sometimes a bit outdated and that's just to name some of the hurdles i think that the people that are interesting by work may come across so this this is not helping getting the tcps and their results known also not known to to friends stakeholders and it also makes it hard from from my perspective as an agency representative to to should use friends experts to participate in the works of your your tcps so is it fair to compare a typical tcp with a factory a factory that's producing knowledge but only has a small sales department so lots of production but few resources spent on on selling what you have been producing of course we're talking seriously technology we're not talking about a cookie factory but could your knowledge product be better promoted could it be packets in such a way that the results can be improved and maybe should the basic product itself also slide be sliced a little bit differently and finally do you know your stakeholders sufficiently well and do they know your tcp so maybe a small anecdote two years ago so i'm representing pvps we were having a technical visit at one of the prestigious friends pv institutes and so we met with its director and was all very well and we got this this nice tour and in the end i wanted to have some advice on how pvps could improve it its functioning and its offerings and we're was a bit of a cold shower because the director didn't know that much about pvps so it was kind of a sobering fact that although we think that we are doing great work it wasn't recognized by by at least the place that we thought were important to us so i'm ex-co-alternate and five-year communications at pvps and i'm also involved in reviewing tasks reports before publications so i've learned first hand of some of the difficulties that tcps like pvps are facing so it's ranging for from help that experts need to identify key messages from their work to the absence of for instance indicators the number of downloads of technical reports to discovering that when you want to update a communications strategy that there wasn't one in the first place so i know a little bit of the internal workings and the problems that us at tcp can face when you start to work a little bit more seriously on communication so as a national agency we would like very much to see that the outcomes of all the tcps is easily digestible accessible relevant for policy advisors but very much also for the branches that are concerned by the tcp topics and we figured that the tcps as a group are doing very well and they have many great practices to to share that each tcp individual tcp can benefit and learn from and we think we would like to share these needs that we share these needs with many of you so 30 90s piece that that's quite a big number and that's why in very close collaboration with the ias secretariat so i would like to name ana calista and kc michael's who have been very involved over the past 12 months so the secretariat and the bcw consulting group we analyzed only a limited number of of tcp seven actually so that came down to holding to holding interviews with them and also to analyze their the websites their production and to come up with recommendations so it was a rational approach because only limited to seven we needed to be efficient but also very positive approaches were seeking for very positive messages that could can be shared with all of you so today we want to share and discuss these recommendations with you we hope that you will get excited by the remaining untapped communication potential for your tcp and that you will drive home the results of this afternoon's exchange for further discussion within your excursion and that you will get organized to kickstart working on improvements if you deem that useful so we acknowledge that this will take time it will take its time to acquire necessary competencies and for that you may probably also need additional budget or reallocate budgets but we would love to meet in the near future so that each of you can present and share the progress and possibly also some tangible results that you will have produced with all of us so I am quite sure that this afternoon will be quite interactive and inspiring and I promise you won't get bored so let's see there's a a slide this is a little bit what I discussed so the assignment was initiated by by Edem and the secretariat and it was really driven by by a need that we felt at Edem in France but I think it's shared with many of you and so we would like what we think it's can be helpful to improve the impact of of all your communications for your productions and publications and so the it will be what will now will be presented is the recommendations based on the best practices and we'll sum it all up in about an hour from now with recommendations on how to take things a step further so it's a partnership with BCW so it's Carolina Clouet and Alan Mikloski were in the center of the room and I'm now happily presenting the word to you thank you oops so good afternoon everybody thank you Paul delighted to be here with you today I'm Mikloski from BCW just perhaps a few words about who we are our agency so BCW Global is essentially a network of agencies from around the world who are present in 130 countries we're part of the WPP group which is one of the world's let's say most far-reaching communications services group what's our focus we have an approach that aims to seamlessly seamlessly weave a comprehensive narrative that engages the complete range of the most relevant stakeholders for the organizations that we work with and we leverage every tool every channel and every tactic available to achieve the goals set by and often with our clients so in terms of our expertise we cover the full spectrum of communications with the exception of advertising so that covers insights and analysis corporate reputation media relations government relations and public affairs influencer advocacy issues and crisis purpose and ECG ESG sorry and financial communications so that's it in a nutshell on who we are so how did we work Paul touched on this briefly we worked with a tried and true methodology through seven interviews with the representative panel of the TCP so we have 4E, HEB, users, bioenergy PVPS HPT and combustion and it was we have to say a most stimulating exercise for us because we collected lots of very rich input so the objective here was to understand TCP's communications how you communicate your needs your constraints activities experiences and of course your criteria performance then as Paul already mentioned we did a website analysis and this was really to ensure that the website as you all know plays the full role of a showcase for your TCP activities but also as a tool of promotion and we'll talk about that in a little bit more detail in a while as a lever of attractiveness to really accelerate the sharing of the knowledge that you produce the very rich and in-depth knowledge that you produce and then in a third step we analyzed different publications with a focus on the reports and two pages for for policymakers our recommendations are driven really by a review of broader TCP's publications so a lot of TCP's came up with newsletters case studies magazines and articles but we'll go through that in a little bit more detail in a while good afternoon we had four levels of reading first what we learned from interviews and analysis this is the first level and we had a lot of quotes in our report second the best practices to our point of view that is to say the good practices to be generalized then we we had to share a key recommendation to make progress by enhancing the value of work produced by you the TCP's and at the end to go a step further we also mentioned some guidelines on how to accelerate performance in communication so how are we going to work this session this afternoon we're going to review together the key recommendations as we already mentioned that came out of the analysis we've also prepared four rounds of questions which will enable you all to react because one of the objectives this afternoon is to have an interactive session however it's going to be very short you will have just a few minutes so between five and ten generally to react to these different rounds of questions let's go through our recommendation beginning with this way of extending audiences and with a picture and a question are you sure you have all reached all your audiences today so that the third question which is important to us and we recommend to make a mapping of your ecosystem in order to be sure that you have identified all the potential audiences that may be interested or related to the technologies and the research you deal with first point step out of your comfort zone so to say to reach strategic ecosystems to reach new networks and new communities and second point question your target ecosystem as a on a regular basis to entertain to enrich your audiences as you can see on the picture in blue you have your traditional targets as we heard from interviews so to say policymakers industry actors other research makers and content makers also that is to say journalists NGOs newspaper etc and this is our third point we recommend to add additional target groups here in orange in the picture such as financial bodies that also support research through for example investment funds through industrial analysts who have as you know sometimes a role of prescription for technologies but also academic world at large with major universities laboratories or new emerging or new players such as startups and young enterprises and also think and do tanks or specialized consultancies to develop this potential target audience fourth point mobilize these stakeholders you already work with or you have identified through this process to enrich your database and last recommendation get yourself listed if possible in the circles that interest you and that you don't know or you don't participate yet so we're now going to move on to the interactivity based on what Garlene just said and okay you're going to have several pieces of information on the side here so on one hand you need to to be able to be interactive and to be able to give your input you need to connect to what you see on the screen here so you have the the site menti.com and then you have to enter the code that's that's on the screen and in the meantime this is as our first round of questions I'm going to call out the questions that you can think about and out of the four recommendations we want to know which one do you consider to be the easiest to implement when it comes to extending audiences so question one question your target ecosystem regularly so evaluated and and really decide what is interesting to to think about get together and and have several points of view second question add additional target groups to your initial mapping third question mobilise the stakeholders you already work with to enrich your database and fourth question kaolin already mentioned it in in her previous slide get yourself listed in the circles that interest you and that you don't yet know so you now have 10 minutes to react I hope everything's clear has everybody expressed their votes okay so so it looks as if we have a winner which is which is question three so mobilise your stakeholders you already work with to enrich your database followed by question your target system regularly and then we have two parts with add additional target groups to your initial mapping and get yourself listed in circles that interest you that you don't already know thank you so we're now going to move on to optimising websites yes I think we have somebody has a yes I have a question and it comes to database can you extend a little bit what you understand on database and when you reflect it with the requirements of data projection and all this regulation that you have to fulfil because that's one of the big challenges yes we don't have in mind something formal like Excel and Excel file for example because it's forbidden and it's not necessarily the best way to work with so our approach is quite informal but which what is important is to have identified interesting networks interesting functions organisation and people and to get in touch with them as quickly as possible does that answer your question okay let's move on then since we're rather limited in time so I'm just going to move on to optimising websites so really to to to brand the home page and to deliver and express the TCP promise we have this is the slide that's indicates on the right hand side the IEA brand guide with the seven different chapters introduction visual guidelines digital media print media communication guidelines contact us so to increase TCP's legitimacy as trusted science producers in a very competitive ecosystem of research players our recommendation is and the IEA's is to really use and follow closely the brand guide and this is also to draw benefit from the IEA's reputation and then what we thought was interesting as well as a promise is to express yourself sharply in the about section on your website so you can on one hand refer and have a descriptive a descriptive standard introduction if you like to the TCP slash IEA or you might prefer to have a more attractive promise let's say a catch your kind of promise and we had two examples on the right hand side that we thought were interesting one is expressed as being as having independent knowledge and the other is international framework for cooperation and networking so this is really accentuating your value proposition through carefully chosen and sharp words that resonate as far as wording is concerned promises and signatures can also be expressed in a sort of compact formulations and also in an editorial style we have here two examples of what we mean bioenergy with this promise accelerating to net zero which goes straight to the point if you want more information read more etc etc and the second example is related to users TCP and we can see here that by social technical research to inform policy making for clean efficient and secure energy transition we have this compact formula that gives sense plus energy to the presentation of the work and of the activity we also recommend strongly recommend using what we call visual vocabulary so on the left hand side of the slide you see a very attractive visual which brings warmth to the reader to the person who's navigating your website versus what you have on the right hand side whereby you have more technical graphs and visuals which for us are really more appropriate for integrating into the actual content of the work let's talk about instructive language and let's consider together that even your grandmother must be able to understand the research you do and the things you do okay however complex the technologies however complex the scientific contents please keep it simple there is some tools for that you can use pictograms such as here in the slide use pixels we have picked up some models here you can also use of course videos you can use tutorials and so on and so on the the idea is to be understood as large as possible and as with a degree of proximity to your audiences so from this very moment all your grandmothers be part are part of your target audiences so another way of animating your home page is to have a lively and updated a regularly updated news section this shows that you are in tune with what's going on it serves to provide information on different trends and we think it's interesting to show a more open TCP also if you have any events going on the idea is to promote conclusions and include when possible replays and links to on your webinars so we have one example on the on the left hand side of the slide a workshop entitled technology advances in liquid biofuels and renewable gas and so read more so you have the links so you have the essential in the title and again it's good to promote this and to share as much as possible and then and then the invitation to actually join the debate and provide any facts that can actually bring the debate forward let's say but also let's say safeguard and defend the technologies that you are promoting and here we have so campaigns questioning the use of woody biomass for energy are missing key facts and then the FAQs and the reports and so on recommendation number five stimulate collaborative contribution here you can see as some examples of membership how to join ideas and proposals all this material giving a positive signal to your audiences that you are sending to your networks and your your communities if you have a suggestion for an international collaborative project please contact suggestions are very welcome etc so show you as a TCP as open as possible to welcome ideas and contribution so that we describe yourself as an open entity and lively entity so we would strongly encourage you to share any success stories that you have because it just makes what you have to say a lot more concrete and and this is what speaks most to those visiting your website so we found too interesting examples here so bioenergy bioenergy success stories so divided into first of all you have the the date took place between 2013 and 2016 location in Germany the technology don't use the principal feedstocks and so on and so forth so the idea is really to have a short format short and consistent and sharp highlighting really the success factors the players involved the impact when you can with facts and figures and of course highlight the sources of additional information to go even further last recommendation regarding websites is to anticipate information needs through for example like here F IQs to anticipate answers to commonly questions about issues different aspects of the research technologies involved in your works etc it helps present the TCP that is in tune with the issues of society which is of concern to a wider audiences so you have the choice here we have chosen a few examples such as is energy from woody biomass positive for the climate and so on and so on so we're now going to go to the second round of questions well in fact know the recommendations rather to be more precise so if you can do as you did a while ago and then what I'm asking you to do is out of the seven recommendations that we're listing here which ones do you consider to be the most difficult to implement so branding the homepage and the TCP promise building a visual vocabulary using instructive language animating the homepage stimulating collaborative contributions sharing success stories and anticipating information needs so I'll leave you to to connect and and vote please okay has everybody voted finished voting perhaps what might be interesting to share here because we see that there are two that take up the biggest portion here so one is stimulating collaborative contributions and the other is building a visual vocabulary as being the most difficult recommendations to implement would anybody feel like expressing why? why you find them difficult to implement any any takers? well stimulating contributions are fantastic but extracting them from the participants of annexes and tasks has proven very difficult over the years and it seems that pretty much any incentive that you offer doesn't always result in a flood of responses thank you what about stimulating collaborative oh sorry what about building oh sorry sorry so in our case or in the case of our tcp we find building the visual vocabulary the the big challenge and it's often difficult to distill complex concepts down to a simple understandable graphic that my grandmother would understand we don't have that skill amongst our technical experts and we struggle to isolate or find the resources to fund the right expertise to do that that has the communication skill set and at least a fundamental understanding of our technical content to be able to work with our experts to do that so that's some kind of where we come at that challenge okay thank you we do appreciate the difficulty but we did see some input that we found quite interesting thank you excuse me is it possible to make some comments on your questions I I appreciate the question I find that some art if I may say a little bit easy for instance when you say that you want you recommend to use the ia brand which I fully share the fact is that if you want to issue a report with an ia brand I mean you have to go through the ia and the process is very cumbersome as far as I know so even if you wanted in that is effectively I wouldn't say a non-start but a very heavy process when you say that you want quick ways to join the community I mean again this is the process tends to go through government through you know ministerial approach to the ia I don't know whether it's really a necessity to have a quick way to access but I mean it is not and I think the nature of the TCP is such that yes it's easy to say but okay you welcome to talk to your neighbour on the right hand side and see what you can improve that the website again something very easy I mean we had the discussion in some TCP's I mean the website you need somebody to host the website to design the website to maintain the website and it's not obvious that the community that are involved in the TCP have the resources to do that on a on a continuous basis because I mean worse than not having a website is to have a bad website so we need to foresee that and and finally you know anticipating the questions I would say that I agree with you although the question tends to be very political I work on nuclear fusion I mean I'm quite happy to answer to the question is nuclear fusion good but I don't think that the technical answer is to satisfy anybody that you look at the question so yes you're right but the question may be very much of a political connotation and I do not think it is for the TCP technical people to try to answer those okay thank you so let's go through a new slot of recommendation dedicated this time to publications first recommendation please facilitate the understanding of your own world I mean for example this particular way to simplify the understanding of your own organization here is an example of a diagram which enables us to understand how the research is for example subdivided particularly by showing the tasks appendices projects including several TCP's links between other TCP's timeline of the project etc it's important because it's easier to understand how you work and therefore what you produce in terms of research the second example here is to give an overview of milestones in your area of activity such as key dates such as technology which are concerned by your research and so on and so on by this kind of images too so how to gain conviction so on the next slide we have yes so we continue on optimizing publications what we think is a really good way to do this is to really opt for the use of infographics when you can to really highlight the essential and we have this example just below key findings ESL report which we think is really well done so you have really the essence of what you want to say it helps you distil so you have the pictograms you have the key facts and figures you have percentages so it really helps to grasp the essential of what you want to communicate in a light and easy to consult way on the right hand side of the slide what we do recommend is to avoid what we call the catalogue effect of the year's achievements but we think what we have in these examples is really good in the sense that you have a short summary of what you want to say and then you have the links to if you know if somebody's interested but it's it is important to to get the wording right so that you're your visitor let's say will want to go a step further and click on the links the other recommendation we have is to work like journalists too how do journalists work they love playing with words they love part of I guess their training is to really look for the essence of what they want to say and really encapsulated into just a few words and they come up with catchy phrases catchy titles really to to attract and to stimulate and to I guess facilitate the reading as well so this again just as a few examples we've taken for the heat pump systems so good examples exist more standardization needed so the use of heat pumps in apartment buildings is possible already so on so on so then key findings it is possible to use heat pump system in apartment buildings is possible and already practice and so on and more standardization needed etc etc so really the idea as well is to insert subheadings introductions quotes whenever you can again it's to to give some air to give some life and bring what you want to say to life with the catchy wording as soon as do our last recommendation convey emotion yes you can through your publications what we would like to share with you today is this kind of motto just because your subjects are highly technical does not necessarily mean that you are condemned to an Oster style and this is the reason why we have chosen this image and these warm colors here give yourself the freedom to inject color warmth and emotion in your into your publications today we know that all players in the research sector in the research area do this use this kind of techniques for your type of subjects to for example NGOs for example actors from civil society journalists et cetera or other international organization the first way to do this we have already mentioned that about the websites is the use of the visual vocabulary you have here some examples as extracted from your reports showing buildings showing and user technologies for example or other technologies which are very impressive and a very aesthetic to share with your audiences to to share emotion worms and something more over your technology and research okay so just to finish up before we move on to the the last round of questions our idea is really to incite you to when you can introduce the human touch and when possible even lightheartedness even though your subjects are serious but that does not not take away from the seriousness of your subjects so it could be through team portraits it could be what we call backstage stories or the making of reports for example I know that I'm just thinking of a professor from MIT a few years ago at a at a conference here in Paris and he he he just created a very funny movie and the audience was breaking their heart laughing and it was about AI okay it was in the early stages because it was a few it was a few years ago but it was just whatever way he did it was so good because the audience really loved it and was a way of getting the message across in a in a fun way and his his point was making sure that the objective and the instruction you give to your robot is very precise otherwise it could go haywire and it did because the robot seeing hungry children they he actually looked around in the fridge couldn't see anything got the cat and put the cat in the oven anyway that's just one example so yep so we're now going to continue on on our round of this time it's actually recommendations we wanted to know if any of these recommendations if they surprised you in any way we would like to just have your reaction so I'll just go through them briefly so simplify the understanding of your organization give the overview of the milestones in your area of activity avoid the catalog effect of the year's achievements create titles like journalists do insert subheadings introductions quotes or keywords and then on the conveying emotion use all available available space to introduce images show communities at work teams portraits backstage stories and making of reports amongst others excuse me what do we answer if none of them surprise us well I guess you're a champion everybody completed their vote okay so we're I guess we're surprised maybe at reactions but I'm sure they're interesting and we'd like to have your comments so visibly the one that surprised most is avoiding the the catalog effect as would with somebody like to express why or not otherwise sorry I just if you wanted to explain just I think that it was like the the gentleman said already that maybe none of them were so surprising sure understand understand understand I guess this is followed then by communities at work and then we have simplified the understanding of your organization and create titles like journalists do I choose this last one create titles like journalists do I wasn't surprised because it's a it's a valuable thing but we are not journalists so I think it's dangerous leave a message in few words if these words are not so precise on the communication because the most of the people are people from of course scientific or technical environment so I think that there's the need of a professionalist to do it because of otherwise you only send this message nobody reads the other things and if you're not right with this message it's in my opinion at least in my professionality that is not like a journalist understand I understand the precision precision point I guess our message our main message was to incite people to incite visitors to your website to to read your reports inject a bit of catchiness if you like it's kind of boosting the attractiveness inciting people to to read further so but understand that that everybody is not doesn't have a journalistic mindset we do not recommend to damage your production it's perfectly clear we just like to share the fact that you can it's a question of balance between precise being precise as a searcher do as scientists do and convince your audiences this is this balance is there is something to play with I think there was somebody else down here wanted to comment thank you it was really interesting I ticked the box on simplifying the understanding of your organization we we did our website a few years ago and we started off with big discussions about who our target audience was and we sort of were aiming at energy professionals so they might not be experts in our field but they kind of know the energy language so we didn't want to oversimplify it because we're not really aiming at the general public thank you understand I think there was somebody else who wanted to make a comment so um I just wanted to say maybe another way to think about it is and I've worked for the federal government in the United States for a long time so I understand this concept sometimes we think that when we post something through a website we have communicated when in fact communication is when you get a response and connect with an audience right so I understand the limitations of being able to communicate highly technical issues to an audience right but we do have that obligation to do that we aren't doing this for a public service right so I think that we have to find a way to to make that connection to not just put stuff out there but also to hear the feedback from the audiences that you're trying to reach so I maybe just I'm very sympathetic to this idea of communicating like a journalist right but I think the aim of what's being presented here is to connect with your audience and so forgive me if I'm not expressing that right but I think that's what the aim is and and if your audience is a technical one then then you know then it's a technical one right but I do think that to a certain extent we do have to think about the grandma because she is paying the taxes for for the work that we're doing thanks thank you that was very clear maybe somebody else we think put up their hand it's not exactly on this question thank you very much for this presentation but they have a plea I unfortunately belong to the part of the population something like 15 percent which face problems with colors and contrasts so they are parts of your slides I just cannot read so if you can later on avoid to write in white on or in light green on white or in dark pink or red on black on dark pink on red or things like that that will help that you cover 100 percent of the population and I will be very much happy to understand what you say and what you write thank you oh thank you for sharing that with us we will certainly take that on board thank you so we're now going to maybe jump to the future and we're going to round up with a very last a very last question so out of we're going to we're going to put up here we go so out of the three solutions that would help you most can you indicate this time in order of priority from one to three so this would be really helping you most as you go forward in the future with your communications programs so one participate in a training session two benefit from external communication expertise three exchange best practices with other tcps thank you so if everybody has finished maybe I'll hand the floor back to Paul to come and tend to conclude yeah thank you Carolina and for for very very clear presentation very vivid so I think it was a nice opportunity to to present to you these recommendations I feel that all tcps can benefit from them some of them of you may have recognized some of the information the website pages etc that were presented so thank you very much for for all these tcps that have participated in the interviews I think what we can take home is a number of things for one as the polls have shown there's quite a breadth in the answers on what is perceived as as your needs and your regard communications some difficulties some surprises that you may have had or not so it's quite a various landscape that no easy single needs that have shown up I think I very much appreciate the remark made by the US delegate that communication is connecting with your audience I think that sums it up quite quite nicely so thank you for that so and like I said I think bcw itself had an experience rather painful one when it comes to communication because your homework was actually a slide deck of under seven pages so we insisted on bringing that back to some 35 there was not a difficult there was not an easy thing to do it was quite difficult so that shows that that communicating getting the essential information out is no easy task and that's well I think for everyone so it also has been mentioned that we're not journalists and I think that's very true so today the audience is you it is the chairs of the tcps and cert members and I think what is very valid is that that experts that typically work in your tcps they normally in their line of work when it comes to public publication of scientific articles they're actually being taken by the hand by by a journal that is publishing their results and all the work is done for them so it's really a different it's a different expertise that is needed so that's well noted as well so I think just to conclude the big question is how to go forward so I think there's this variety of needs some things have come up quite quite clearly I think especially with the latest poll so I think there's need for external expertise for for many of you tcps so it's probably something that should be organized within your tcp the other thing that came up is also something that's interesting I think to the IEA's secretariat that is that tcps are looking forward to having an exchange on best practices so to continue more or less what we have been doing this afternoon I don't know we have discussed a little bit with the secretariat how to follow up I think we'll think it over we'll think what has been set in exchange this afternoon but it could be that we'll get back to you soon probably before the end of the year probably with some kind of questionnaire to to get a better idea of what what your needs are if you wanted to improve your communication and then based on that we could probably come back to you early 2024 with some concrete propositions thank you Alander thank you very much Paul and thank you for the presentation I hope that we all learned a little bit today or maybe a lot and as you said Paul a lot of food for thought and to think about as we think through how to incorporate this into next steps one last session before we close I'm going to hand it over to Per who's going to provide a short summary of what we heard amongst the various breakout groups in the first session earlier this afternoon thank you very much Amanda and thanks of course all to all the participants including the the moderators and the note-takers for for conducting the exercise and I take it that since no one was here for the coffee break you had a in time you had a good discussions and also passing by the rooms outside of the rooms I heard were quite active discussions as well so I really hope from our side behalf from our side that you really found this as a useful exercise and as we said this is a starting point in many ways for trying to dig a bit deeper into what we could be doing from a of course from a government point of view you delegates from certain working parties but also from TCP sides what are the potential improvements to make in the how you communicate for the annual briefings and of course what's the wishlist to the ISCA Territz for also helping to support communication across the network and then also of course thanks to the the colleagues here for doing this last exercise which of course is also part of this broader conversation of how to improve communication building upon the feedback we received through the the cert review just in very short summary and we go through the details and debrief with some of the colleagues that took the notes to make sure we don't any miss any good inputs and details but just in a quick summary on when it comes to the the role of the cert working parties basically our government officials seems to be quite a strong support and recognitions that there will be a value to have national TCP days on a more frequent basis in countries but also identifying national TCP coordinators to continue building that ownership of the TCPs ensuring that there are alignments with government's priorities also there is a wish for clear guidance from cert to the TCPs and we have that discussion tomorrow as well as part of the request for extension that process we're also part of the cert review we are there are discussions or had been discussions of clear guidance to the TCPs for those for that process so cert is something that being in motion but again here the working parties will play a role as well because cert cannot in itself be active in 39 TCPs however on that note I also see in some comments that many TCPs and we heard it's also in the past from the cert delegates to open up the TCPs ex-commitings activities for cert delegates that are interested there was one idea of not saying that that's cert delegates adopt the TCP but this also find a way to maybe if there's an interest from cert delegates to also follow individual TCPs to ensure that the gap between the delegates of cert and the TCPs are closed when it comes further to the discussion about what the TCP can be doing of course that's merely linked back to the annual reporting and was the format of that and I think we have again I got a few more reactions both from the cert delegates that's one to see a bit more policy oriented policy briefs achievements who were behind who were to part of the activities or were behind the achievements and to make sure that this is a document that in the end of the day is actually read so I think this is something we with certain tech note of and we'll use the next month to think and work together with you how it can be further improved then it comes to the IA side I think you mentioned it too to pull the role of us to continue facilitating between TCPs on best practices not so much of course on substance but on operation of the TCPs where communication is one side but also we hear that the other topics where TCPs even if working on very different topics can still have a value of working sharing best practices if it's on how to administer how to as was said by the the wind TCP this morning as well how do you as you're growing how do you manage to also how do you manage that growth to sustain it as well with all the additional work with the limited resources again something to think more about how we can operate of course we what we also heard from so in some of the comments is this idea of yes there is a need for and that's also that in the final slide here for continued advice from experts on communication we one of the questions when we asked what TCPs were missing sometimes in your network as well as linked to if we this idea of the peer review groups that can help with the request for extension process communication was mentioned what quite a few of you that this is one area where you don't have the expertise in the network and that could also be brought in so something to take note of as well the last thing to say or two more things and I know this is coming up also in many of the input to us where you TCPs think we should prioritize more is this how to facilitate better communication between the TCPs the delegate sub is mentioned as one potential tool but we also see in some of the proposals here to go even further and how to share contacts how to monitor exactly what's happening in each TCP work stream level annex level task level and these things is something to think about as well to ensure that we reduced barriers between the TCPs to work but again something on our which we take note of before as well and just finally which I think is a very good comment in this soup of acronyms how can I share that any newcomers are not discouraged for entering this community and easy poly well easy briefing material for and that goes the same with assert colleagues as well but also here if you have any newcomers to the TCP network is there anything that we can put together one or two three pages that could easily explain what this about what it's trying to achieve etc I think that's something which I think we can also consider but again there's no decisions here today it's just we really appreciate all the input and ideas that was a purpose for this session and now we continue regroup and we'll come back to you as well but seeking together with assert delegates preparing for the assert meeting in March to come up with the first or next step of some of these ideas to actually be put into practice thank you very much again and back to you chair thanks very much pair and thanks at all of you for your excellent participation through the day I think it's a positive sign when we can come out of these discussions with a very long list of things to consider it means that people participated in the discussions and had lots of thoughts which is better than the alternative I continue to be struck by the diversity among the TCPs in this room and otherwise both in terms of the subjects that you cover the level of granularity with which you cover them and the organization that you use to undertake your work so I hope that it's been beneficial here on the first day for us to continue to learn from each other before we wrap up I'm going to hand it over to Timur for a few parting words thank you Amanda I don't want to say too many things other than big thanks to all of you for the active participation today I hope it was useful for you both the input we just got from our external colleagues on the communication side of things big thanks from my and certainly from the secretariat and for for the contribution here but also with a view to the exchanges we had I personally found it extremely useful not only with regards to the themes that we were covering but I also learned a lot from Brian about the history of the ETSAP TCP to Keith the number of summer schools that they have been hosting or from Stefan in the break no over wind supply chains so I think that's the key value here that we have an opportunity to meet others talk about things that we're experiencing in our day to day type of work how it compares with the work of others so for us as an agency it was very useful to discuss with you today I hope you find it among yourselves as useful and also the opportunity to exchange with the CERT colleagues we will have a formal or we will have a reception not so formal I think a reception tonight so no I'll take off the tie then so to emphasize the informality but yeah we are looking forward to further discussions there and of course to tomorrow so back to you Emuna thank you so for those of you here in the room and with apologies to those of you online the reception is going to be in the IEA cafe which is just outside the door and to your right at the end of the hall just a few things to remember for tomorrow so we're back here in this room we're downstairs in this room again for day two tomorrow same timing so coffee networking starting at 9 a.m. with the session kicking off here in the room promptly at 9 30 tomorrow we're going to dig in a little bit deeper to the notion of TCP coordination groups to the request for extension process and we'll also have a special address by Dr. Biral the executive director of the IEA a reminder for those of you here to please keep your badge so you can get back into this building tomorrow and I'll see you at the reception thank you to those of you online have a good evening thanks for an excellent day