re the guy moving toward him that he just like you know keeps his head down versus neck into the tail neck and slowly walks away like yeah okay patrick slowly retreats into his turtleneck he goes all the way down and shrinks and then it's just clothes on the floor yeah head should probably go down there an actual turtle crawls out of the clothes pile is true ultimate form unless it's like punching nazis i'll be the first to admit that cinematic violence can be extremely satisfying i'm only human and i've cheered at my fair share of headshots i'm gonna say patrick you're not doing good for your argument at this point though if you just established this we're now we're in a little bit of trouble and impalements and disembowelings i'm not trying to start a whole exploration of the psychological catharsis of onscreen violence but i understand the impulse for more i remember when i was 14 oh okay all right look you don't like i don't know maybe i'm reading this a little bit harshly but i just like the idea is like look i understand i was 14 once you're like okay i was young and sure and i like the things that you like now yeah that's sort of ask people girls don't typically like violence so so you have to be a 14 year old boy to understand this argument and how exciting was it the rumors that the extended editions of the Lord of the Rings movies might be rated r for additional violence they weren't they remained pg-13 but at the time i was thrilled that peter jackson snuck in a few extra decapitations and then i got older and i realized how soon i mean and then i got older like and i bought a turtleneck i started reading i decided turtlenecks with jackets was the way to go yeah something happened absurd and pointless and r rated lord of the rings would be absurd and pointless okay it wouldn't be it wouldn't be absurd or pointless like this is an interesting one because if someone said like do you want to see a lord of the rings in r like r-rated i'd probably like i don't know i i don't i don't really not really i'm wary to see another lord of the rings regardless of yeah i think that's where my actually i think go for it sure but if i don't know if someone said like peter jackson wants to do a cut and he has all of everything filmed whereas an r rated sort of version and if all that was added was extra gore i'd be like i don't really care but if um i'm trying to think of how you would do it like maybe more is is is addressed more things that are a little harsher and going further into characters that are like like not necessarily as as obvious into just like really rough stuff maybe um about the different because there's plenty in orderings you could possibly explore there like obsession and addiction and like the giant vat of toxic waste that's what you need oh yeah yeah it would just be violence there's nothing else they could really put in from the lord of the rings that would make it oh yeah it would have to be something that they're bringing to the table because i doubt the books i don't want to see areas tits unless you put the hobbits in dancing around naked after i want to see friday's happening oh yeah some people like but yeah um not something this is the thing i would need to be sold on the potential i guess and that's kind of where i'm looking at with the superhero ones like the x-men one i feel like you can make a good case for why you could make an r rated one this worthwhile but if also what's got is well it's going to be like superman but there's going to be heads exploding stuff i was like i don't know all right you want to go on a little bit more than that and like he's like yeah i grow up yeah i feel like he's conflated to my sets right like um the the investment in sort of like the grindhouse type stuff doesn't make you a 14 year olds enjoying like uh over violence with with the right context versus someone just is just like lord rings would be better if there was more heads getting chopped off okay but go on that was always intended to be for all ages and then the extended edition of the third hobbit movie in r rating which is extra weird because the hobbit was always more of a children's story than lord of the rings but look we all know my god i didn't i didn't know there was so much violence well it was happening so fast you couldn't see it yeah so that they made some questionable choices with the hobbit trilogy i'm using that anecdote as a way of saying that i understand the desire for amplified violence in these stories but my question is what is it really adding superhero stories are in one way or another power fantasies the premise is that people gain spectacular impossible abilities and use those man it depends if i don't know like it it depends on how you see yourself in a relationship to the superhero uh i think it's in relation to the superhero i would say it's a power fantasy if you imagine yourself with them or if you think i'm much more invested in seeing what they do when i understand who they are and how much power they have that's sort of my connection to it rather than man i wish i was this because i'm not going to say that's not like i'm sure that is for a lot of people as well as perhaps myself with certain superhero movies i guess but like for example like you know civil wars like i'm much more interested in seeing who i understand to be cap and iron man trying to wrestle out what is happening in this world this one's like this power fantasy i'd be like not really like honestly not not really um it is when i mean like when you're a kid sure like you guys just said if you're a magic like i am gonna pretend i'm spider man for the next two hours and that's that's like a seven eight nine year old mindset it depends on when you watch it and how you watch it like a bunch of us wanted to see these superhero movies because we read the comics and then some people just went in cold without reading the comics and just a good story a good timeless story will be enjoyed for different reasons no matter what time you change throughout life uh he just said that so i i yeah i have no idea where he's going with this it's it's seems contradictory because you know patrick seems to be arguing that it's there needs to be more stuff aimed at children and as you said the comics aimed at children superhero stuff aimed at children could be more about power fantasy the kid wants to imagine himself as being superhero but all the adult superhero material that he sort of seems to not like or things are too much or that stuff could not be it that stuff's not at all power fantasy like no one's watching logan and thinking like oh i want to be old man logan slowly dying you know joker thinking like oh i want to you know be isolated from society yeah well and this is what i think he's doing so many he's doing so many of the situations are like the people are powerless batman you know his parents are killed uh same with spider man spider man is uh doesn't stop the yeah his uncle is killed uh x-men they're all uh under the thumb of the humans i mean it's all about being powerless um being able to fight back against a power i suppose with power you could you could argue sort of there but uh what i think he's he's doing a little bit of a sneaky here he's he said like they become our rated and it's like agreed what is the typical reason they get the r rating well gore and what is that even adding to these films almost as if we've now got the formula up in the air that they only are rated because of gore gore adds really nothing meaningful therefore they shouldn't be r rated i'd be like whoa we're missing a lot of um as we've kind of gone over it's not necessarily like like there's lots of the things that get added i'd say that the goal will be so like a circumstance like you know joker if you remove all of the overt violence it's still pretty mature that film in terms of like what it's dealing with i don't think kids are going to watch it and be like woohoo they're gonna be like whoa this is uh joker's a total another powerless character do you think he's gonna make an argument that since superhero movies are power fantasies and adult ones are more violence driven that this is creating a generation of of young adults who want to enact violence on people he's gonna lack all self-awareness whatsoever and say that i don't know that he's gonna go that it's the car it's the comic books that are causing all of this violence is going to make the in-sell argument but this is the thing i think that um a film being mature and aimed for adults is actually not in the same category as whether or not it's r rated in the sense that um you can have what's that like elie roth is a person who makes a lot of r rated stuff that is absolutely fucking juvenile um but then you have films that could be quite like not necessarily child friendly but rpg um hey rpg i just said that in a sentence without it meaning what it sounds like oh weird role playing gore um what right what age range was um 12 angry men for example because the original or the remake 12 12 angry men the 50s what age range um yeah well because are you saying that all ages i could be theoretical anyway so let's just say there was a film like 12 angry men and it was a pg or even what is it you is is like universal it can be watched by everyone or whatever but like a kid watching it would be like this is a shit like i'm bored a bunch of guys are going to talk about something and you'd be like yeah because it's more for an adult audience i would say but it's not r rated and so what i guess i'm getting at it's when people see that the next batman movie is going to be r rated they'll be like oh shit that is an indicator that there may very well be content for adults in it the lots of stuff for us to think about to chew on more so than it's typically president so basically by definition of a 3d r there's content for adults and well i'm trying i guess to separate out like because he's he's almost made it seem now that it's mainly gore that makes this happen and i'm just like yeah but it's that's not necessarily what we're in it for like right well it's like the king's speech is you know that it's only rated r because of the cursing but the studio didn't care because they knew kids weren't going to like it anyway yeah i don't think they'll feel like they've lost their market if they are rated right exactly so you're saying like with the batman movie if it's rated r it's not just a signal that oh it's going to be violence and gore it's a signal that maybe this will be a more darker you know grittier interpretation of batman that's not necessarily um because if we had two batmans you didn't know who wrote and directed it but one was pg and one was r rated which one do you think is going to have the light like likelihood not is just likelihood which one's gonna have more adult shit in it you'd be like the r rated one r rated one it's like well it turns out the r rated one is just this goofy childish set of gore it's just blood splashing all over the place and batman just be like with his machine gun just killing everyone meanwhile the pg one is something really contemplative but safe in terms of allowing kids to see and you're like oh so i was wrong but the r rating implied to me that it wouldn't and that's just how people look at it i think which is totally fair because it often will be the case like logan logan's r rated it's like oh shit we're gonna have like a and you watch the trailer and you're like oh my god this is going to be like really introspective because it's it that film looks back on like the the franchise as it as it stands the uh the one that hu jackman's a part of just like this is really really interesting i can't wait to see how he defines power fantasy i think birds of prey is the only superhero movie i know that's a power fantasy yep the premise is that people gain spectacular impossible abilities and use those abilities to do what we wish we could fly or save the world or fight save the world shows what the if you say so all right sure angiopascal okay it's corruption and evil and most often these stories are about characters using those abilities to solve problems with violence and again to be clear fictional violence is very often cool and fun the audience is usually meant to identify with the heroes so when the violence is amplified in our always a real violence can be cool and fun calm down what is what is like all of the violent stuff about if not like something that they want to do like boxing ufc yeah that's what i'm saying sure totally football is violence if you don't want to admit that the people doing it are finding it fun you can't deny the audience find it fun like course they do weird that he said that again to be clear fictional violence is very often cool and fun the audience is usually meant to identify it seems like a weird edit he put in after the fact you think maybe like i don't know why yeah maybe i'm trying to think of why he would think he needed to say that i don't know like he wants to clarify that he does he's okay with violence in in films i guess in case people thought he wasn't with the weird thing the default should be that you're okay with fictional violence yeah we're like i guess because you want to you want to knock out like gratuitous stuff and just like yeah we're suitable in context obviously everyone everyone thinks that i don't approve of literally everything ever cool and fun the audience is usually meant to identify with the heroes so when the violence is amplified in our rated films what is it accomplishing other than making these heroes appear more powerful and brutal why would that not be realistic consequences to the things that they do yeah and why would that have no like he makes that sound like it's worthless like isn't it really useful we talk about this all the time with villains being introduced showing how much power they have to let us know where the stakes lie yeah yeah and same with heroes if we want to believe like how strong is superman fucking punches someone and they'd like fling across the room you know punches a car right through he's just like oh i get it now i get it i'm very clear there's a thing and there's a thing in movies called stakes yeah it can achieve a lot it's very it's very simple we have to know what the stakes are yeah i never feel like the stakes endure the explorer high close case scenario she doesn't get to where she wanted to go that day so she tries again the next day it's high it's i don't have to worry about worry about her being kidnapped and raped and sold into slavery somewhere you know she's like on a waterfall edge she goes whoa we're all expected to be pulled back because she's consequences for dora it's a head on a rock her teeth explode out and blood's everywhere and she struggles to get up and then she drowns she can't quite swim properly at that point and you're just like wow we went into happy tree friends all of a sudden because that's which by the way anyone without context will be so confused by what i just said one of you guys know what i'm talking about right i know about happy tree friends yeah violence is like the stakes just manifest primarily manifest on yeah yes i mean it's it's a tool and by the way if we're gonna get really if we're gonna get really thingy here like like uh seeing someone punch someone is you only liking that because you just enjoy watching the violence or watching justice being served to someone who's a piece of show so i'm gonna be like is that bad yeah maybe i do just like seeing people get punched like yeah we can enjoy the fight so like yeah you need to convince me why that's not good enough to have it in there i guess in theatrical oh wait sorry i was gonna say no i was gonna say in the daredevil series i think one of the the violence is important to the story it shows you again the stakes the realism and this guy with no power well with the only powers he can see in 360 he's blind and he's taking on this like extremely dangerous world guys are getting their heads cut off with car doors he's fighting like nine guys in a hallway and he's coming through and it adds to it it adds to the realism the verisimilitude so it's a very important and yeah what you said earlier it's ridiculous to have wolverine killing a bunch of people there's not a drop of blood anywhere and you ask your you know and the same thing happens in the comics too to be honest with you you know it gets ridiculous that's kind of the thing i guess like it it that's what i mean with like when you watch logan you don't go oh my god they've taken my child thing and they've made an adult thing instead it's like oh shit it is what it is now whoa yep right it was something different that i mean in that case that they took x-men somewhere we never thought they would tell us like the darkest ending possible saddest it's a it's a dark ass movie but it's great that i've only seen once because it's so dark but and i guess this bringing us around to a point of just like yeah i mean superheroes they have way more power than the average person and they typically fight crime violence that's gonna come up it's gonna come up once in a while it would seem silly if it didn't come up and then you'd be like well now we talk about should the violence be pow and then they fall over or should it be and then blood splatter you're like oof and it's like yeah well that's the conversation i guess and it's about contact well pretty soon uh you know marvel's gonna start adapting their modern comics and we'll have she-hulks sitting around a table watching youtube videos and eating food oh man oh my god oh i eat food that's relatable yeah food's relatable right well cut man v superman batman flings a wooden crate at a random goon and we go wow batman really hurt that guy but the r-rated director's cut adds a smear of blood where the goon's head hits the wall and we go wow i think batman killed that guy i always thought he was dead regardless yeah i don't know yeah you toss a crate into that man's face and it rams him into a brick wall he's dead he can recover from that's gonna be tough he fucking died um i suppose i would have made the great g&g and the load is that him almost advocating that the blood was a plus there then because it tells us the truth of the situation or is it that he's saying is the only reason you put it there to tell us he was dead that's that's lame definitely raises the stakes doesn't it the blood raises it well that's the thing right it's confirmation i guess in a way of yeah in isolation trying to say when you have a person punched and they go oof and then they punch back and that person goes ow and then they carry on versus one punch and it like hits like the watermelon and it's they slow it down a little bit and then like blood comes you remember um the end of spider man one the rainy one like you definitely get a sense of like oh shit this battle is a little bit more um this is a little more serious yeah now i'm feeling like i'm actually very concerned for spider man's life because of how they're portraying the fight this is no common thug and so i'd be interested to know if you would think that it was unsuitable there or what did it achieve by having it more violent um yeah this guy does story essays i don't know why he's not bringing up the stakes seems important well we're only halfway through maybe you will oh god you can't apply that that was the first thing he did to the guy first and last thing a crate to the face can really fuck you up i guess yeah when he should fight batman what the fuck it's making the inherent power fantasy more sadistic what sadistic no let's just no somebody was shooting a man okay somebody was shooting a bunch of guys were shooting at him yeah you know um it makes it more realistic i was gonna say he's just like wait on the flip side you're just looking for a world where you get to hide away from real consequence of what things do to you like i don't want to know i don't want to know that someone died is deriving pleasure from inflicting pain suffering or humiliation on others so no because it's a movie there is no actual pain or suffering or humiliation happening well i suppose his argument would be what's the word when you say like you enjoy it from like a as though someone's you enjoy it that someone else is performing it and you get it um there's a word for this i've completely forgotten what it is vicariousness vicariously yeah i think that's what i was going to reaction no sorry wrong word um like i vicariously enjoy watching someone torture someone else even in fiction because i can believe that that's what i could be doing right now all right oh so but it's like no fuck off if if i would again we brought the spear example with black panther i was in the cinema i saw that happen i was like that's strange it's not that i want her to bleed from the deck it's that i was just like wait what are you telling me just happened like did she is she okay so yeah how did she die yeah what's wrong with her and so if you show batman crushing a guy's fucking skull with something and it's like yeah he fell over he's okay i should be like okay fine i guess and someone's like oh i added blood don't you feel sadistic about it's like no what if we know what if they set up that that guy is a huge transphobe he deserves it he's a nazi it wasn't sadistic enough right matters here simply what happens on screen it's how it's portrayed right the thing about cinema is that the visual language being used tells us how we're supposed to feel about oh really comes to portrayals of violence look at yeah i'm getting such an education in a scene in a film school it shifts between these dispassionate static wide shots yeah every everyone watches clockwork orange has a power fantasy i just want to kill and rape i guess that's his point is that it's portrayed as much more clear in terms of what is happening is bad and he's obviously going to cycle back to bvs and be like the violence here is awesome and that's wrong because this is sadistic or something like that we're all here empathizing with alex you know you are you know you wish you were alex sadistic fuckers and chat we know this is so poison is real droog posting hours my dude well it's just i think he's he's counted himself he's trying to say like um magic no so cinema as a format it will tell you like so you know like if i punch um a little kid to death and in the background the music is is triumphant you you'd all be like what the fuck like yeah um the child has been vanquished meanwhile if if we win the day and sad music plays and i look really sad we're all like oh is there something going on we didn't catch what's what's wrong like why you know because it's that's just how it works and he's i guess he's trying to say that when batman threw that crate of that guy in the blood splat on the wall that the film is happy for you to enjoy that sadistically you're like oh because it's only two it's a means to an end well this is one good thing is happening as a result this is where my point's going he's he's almost implied even though he set this up with film language is complicated and can tell you many things he's basically said like either you can damn it or you promote it it's like no there's loads of things you can do with violence i'm sorry but he just said you can punch a nazi yeah yeah he even he shows a clip earlier of watchmen and part of the the violence and watchmen i always thought was interpreted is a bad thing like when documental people up you're not supposed to be like oh yeah it's kind of like us yeah yeah it was weird he chose that as the example of being excessive when it's like well isn't the point of that seem that like what do we think about dr manhattan ending any war that we're looking to win like who that's a really weird how violence you need the context to understand if it's good or bad isn't it isn't that odd that's human like you won't catch me doing much defense of bvs but i'll defend that batman scene is not it's not sadistic he's fucking fighting for his life totally yeah so fuck thank you so what this is itself defense here in clockwork orange though that's why juxtaposing these two scenes is is mental yeah it's very strange alex is clearly the bad guy yeah everyone is never not portrayed as the bad guy that's his but he's saying the film makes that clear but bvs isn't there's like this is even remotely fair for so many reasons like it's not fair yes just happening and then the perspective of the victims with the camera on the floor looking up at the attackers the violence is disturbing and cruel and unpleasant yeah but it doesn't always have to be even when it's yes he's yes he's a villain and yeah it's it's almost like you can't compare these because batman is doing it to save a woman's life and people are trying to shoot him to death clearly very bad people this is stupid and then this fight scene from the first episode of the show titans okay i guess we're not gonna i thought he was making it more about bvs but you know what i put words in his mouth all right we're talking about titans in pretty much every shot robin is the focus we're experiencing this from his perspective the camera moves with robin amplifying his movements making him look more powerful it zooms in on his attacks like this guy's face being dragged across broken glass when he's beating the guy in the ground we focus on robin's face and how he's feeling the whole scene is lit with glossy moody lighting everything looks shiny it's cool it's sexy shiny it's cool and shiny that's not true though okay you can't show me a picture of not everything looking shiny then tell me everything shiny um there's a lot of things to say about this first of all haven't seen it second of all i know that most people think it's shit third of all it's very well could be considered gratuitous for whatever reason but we really need to remember that like having consequential damage being dealt to people shouldn't always be associated with sadism that's just stupid yeah that means that stuff that we see has like impact it's going to come back later if someone breaks their leg or jumps off a building or something like that it's going to have an impact on what happens next that's just basic cause and effect and so yeah like i'm not defending titans i just mean that like i guess he's saying in this instant instance titans is taking pleasure in dealing pain to people irrelevant of whether or not these people are attacking robin with lethal force this is the thing i'd have to see the scene is this and titans it doesn't even seem like it's a sadism it seems like they're trying they're trying really hard and you could say it's over the top but to be like oh this isn't your this isn't your father's robin this is a new robin yeah this is cool robin for the yeah just trying to feel like a different crowd the sadism line seems to be if it's just violence for violence sake but there's so many all of the superhero movies it's like it's justice it's like retribution it's like it's not violence for violence sake at all yeah and the understanding of fake versus real suffering is a huge distinction because if you watch suffering in a fictional context like in a movie and you know it's cool and awesome and fun you wouldn't be okay with that if that was a real person suffering well you have a vast majority of people wouldn't that's why people who would be okay with that are like they're the sadists yeah the bbs the bbs scene for example if we were told that was security footage i my reaction is very different i should be like jesus christ like what what is happening here this man like wow this is all okay oof that guy's dead i don't think i don't think when like a kid is playing mortal combat and they do the like the x-ray fatality that they're like oh yeah that's happening in real life i'd be so excited this is what i mean i don't think you should toss around to say it is a so casually patrick that's all yeah exactly yeah and and it well obviously baban versus superman and titans are completely two different things on two different networks and if he centered his entire argument around while this over-the-top edgelord tryhard garbage titan show is on a thing called dc universe a streaming service that was meant for kids that sure i mean i you know it was especially the uh i mean fuck batman whatever but robin stabbing a guy in the dick with the with the scissors what it was just it was it was it was uh it was it wasn't sadist it was just fucking bad it was just poorly executed i understand their creative choices and what they were trying to do is just the writer for that show really sucked so i mean to make it overall argument about and try to conflate batman versus superman and titans which i guess they were trying to be like that but it just didn't work i would say there's another thing to take into account it could just be incompetence you don't have to assign it like the person maybe was like i love making people bleed you're like okay yeah well and there's an irony here too because like with titans usually when something's too edgy or too ridiculous it's becomes childish it's not seen as a dull yeah it's like yeah the thing's being grounded is uh it helps with investment a lot right absolutely our rated material being used to say anything or is it just there to indulge our desire to see more hardcore versions of these characters he says is it being used to say anything um it could be as simple as the punches delivered by people will actually be punches like in real life okay audience like okay that's already saying something sure i still say it's there to raise the stakes that's kind of what i just advocate for because yeah when our hero gets punched that that shit is that has an impact but yeah it's an annoying if you have just an average move to two normal dudes fighting each other one of them punches the other hundred and just like nothing's happening to either of them you can just be like oh we this is like a chill movie there's not really any like worry for anybody and yeah okay but if one punch knocks a guy to the ground and he starts bleeding out of his nose you're like oh shit yeah okay like i fall yeah stakes yeah there's reason number two for our rated violence oh here it is raise the stakes in the comic what deconstruction oh my god is he saying deconstruction like this is now my deconstruction or it is for deconstruction it's gonna say that violence like in logan is deconstructive and therefore good because it's deconstructing the character but violence that's gratuitous is bad yeah like violence designed to make you aware of what you've been consuming and what it means and stuff um almost like critical commentary on the genre or something like that i'm assuming like you look at these superheroes look at look at them committing to what they can do you should be upset you should be thinking more about what you're enjoying that sort of thing watch man alan more and dave gibbons very deliberately chose not to portray any of the action or violence as cool there are no badass poses or big action splash paid shots of a hero punching a bad guy any instance of violence is shown blunt yeah i mean that seems like entirely different goals right yeah yeah yeah exactly unspectacularly in panels that are the same size and shape as any other because the superheroes of this story are not meant to be idolized or glamorized in any way there is nothing indulgent about it okay we're getting into places so when you so when he started this video doing rorschach's voice was that not idolization i'm assuming he hates rorschach he probably hates rorschach like and that was just sort of him making fun of something so there are i think the thing that i think the thing that we like the thing that uh entertains us is violence plus justice like if the violence is unjust then we we shrink from it we don't like yeah we like it when the night slays the dragon yeah we want to yeah exactly up the bad guys we like violence that is like used as an like it it's channeled into virtuous and good yeah it's so nice so taking that that's that's that super high feeling of like ultimate justice and ultimate violence and just stylizing it in a way to make it that much more ooh so tantalizing then i mean that's that's that's what the movies are designed to do and but he's completely ignoring that moral component here which is essential yeah we want it proportional as well if i should essentially be picked in with just totally yes jaywalking you know ecapitation and jaywalking doesn't necessarily go together no but um a guy is like i'm going to melt every child in the city that you fucking rip his head off you're like well like yeah exactly exactly this is one of the more things zack snider got wrong in his film adaptation as slavishly faithful as the whole thing is with each shot perfectly recreating each of the comics panels snider portrays violence in the exact opposite way that moran gibbons did well that's that's the only way zack snider knows how to portray violence so i you can't really blame him for that so i guess it's gotta look good right we're suggesting that the watchman comic was um trying to bring light to like how rough a lot of this is while the film was having fun with violence i still don't i don't like i need to see the film again but surely this is uh significantly dependent on the viewer as well someone could watch the same scene and come away like man that was rough or rather than that was awesome if zack snider hadn't made any other movies but watchman i would say oh no he's using the violence to show what's wrong but i guess if you're judging it based off his other work afterwards you can say well maybe he's 300 was before watchman right i think so yeah and like 300 is absolutely a movie that's like let's fuck shit up 300 is amazing i love it but there is a point that 300 does have like the violence plus justice model and watchman doesn't necessarily like this first scene and watchman is completely devoid of moral content because you don't you don't know the situation yep yeah i i don't think it's glorifying i i mean it is pretty to look at i don't mind that but you can argue that in the comic they use the four color palette they didn't try to tone it down just because they didn't use big splash pages and stuff that i don't well they did occasionally like the i know the the scene where ozzie's like hitting that guy in the face with the pole before like a big splash page yeah it's not all nine panels i got this the best violence though in watchman is i mean for me personally is the scene with rorschach in prison because a guy totally has it coming and he fucking lights him up like it's so perfect what he puts the i don't even is it just like grease or whatever he pours on yeah he like pours the fryer on him oh my god it's badass slow motion shots with the heroes striking classic comic proposes the violence is sexy this is what i don't get about people like patrick williams they talk all the time about how subjective everything is and then they suddenly like this is glorifying well that's my point yes it's like well wait a second what if someone just comes away from this like geez i don't think that's glorifying i hate you yeah that's what i mean and a lot of people can be like oh man and then they start to question like is this even like oh i don't know and and he's like no it's glorifying like okay sexy violence right that's what he's been saying it's just like oh because of slobo shots can't you use slobo to enhance the pain of a situation yes yeah let's slow down that clockwork orange theme it's reconstruct also whether or not it's cool as well i feel like this is complicated now as a feature it's like if it's cool it can't be something that tells you like it's it's rough or something like i don't know about that couldn't they work together in the sense that you're like oh man look how it's being portrayed in a sense of like it's kind of um badass but at the same time i don't know that i agree with how much violence is being used and so i'm like conflicted about this is what i mean there's so much going on in a person's brain when they see this stuff but he's like no he did it wrong you're like oh okay yeah he so matter of fact too yeah that's what i'm saying i'm not even saying i necessarily disagree because i need to watch the film again then i need to go through the comments see how it's all uh adapted and and maybe make different arguments to him but it's just interesting to me that he's so definitive about it talking the myth as quickly as the story attempts to deconstruct it if the comic is saying superheroes are actually damaged fucked up people and fighting crime is a pathetic way to feel a sense of power the movie is saying yeah but also it's awesome this is the same contradiction snider continually falls into i mean i almost have to take his word because i just i need my references are refreshed for watch but unfortunately but like okay batman v superman wants us to question the purpose of superheroes and whether or not they should exist in the world but it also really loves it when batman stabs people and blows them up in slow motion this is what makes the amazon tv series the boys so effective it uses similar aesthetics and visual language as sniders films but tells the story from the perspective of regular humans okay see now he's just he's just picking and choosing at this point the boys has plenty of violence being done by the bad guys that still cool and flashes violence absolutely yeah this is yeah homelander going on laser vision terrorists and things like that you know i don't know but this just feels like you're just gonna choose whatever you think best matches what you're talking about like he showed that scene homelander throws the guy remember he melts his gun into his own hand like homelander has the power to take these people out without having to torture them so like i don't know the just i don't know this this feels really cherry-picky to me he's just choosing whatever he wants to support whatever he wants perspective the superheroes using their powers to kill and maim isn't cool it's terrifying yeah sometimes yeah yeah the times that it's not terrifying and it's fucking awesome though you know when you see batman brand people in bvs and then the people left behind a chained up and like whimpering i don't even zack snider i don't think he's saying it's it's super awesome i think he's being like what do you think do you think batman's going too far with this especially when you find out that they're getting killed in prison because of the brands i'd be like again i'm not like zack sniders fucking person but like why are you saying that he's trying to say that that's just cool it's like clearly not the conflict in the movie superman calling him out superman's like you fucked up when you did all that batman i'm gonna beat you up for it like that's that's it's like now the visual language is trying to say it's cool it's like you're saying that that's the case i don't know do you remember the guy in bvs who's like please don't put me in the um in that group people because they'll kill me and the guy walks up to him just stab stab stab stab stab his belly it's like yeah that's so awesome it's not at all portrayed in a sense of just like wow that guy is now dead that yeah he just got fucking wrecked totally glorified only glory that's what i mean he's just been really unfair the trope for man's glowing red eyes is no longer shorthand for badass rage it's now a symbol of sociopathic violence as we see it rip through innocent civilians oh my god it bugs me so much what's the point he said but the point season two is so bad with how it does this it's just annoying or melt people's skulls but really the ultimate example of the r-rated superhero deconstruction is the one that everything else has been ripping off for the past 35 years alan moore's miracle man which was originally called marvel man until marvel comics got lawyers involved it's a reboot of a comic from the 1950s that's really just a ripoff of shizam about a kid who turns into a superhero when he says i'm assuming he's just gonna this this particular thing is going to present an idea the idea that everyone's been ripping it off for a second not going to be true but i'm assuming he's hyperbolic took words i would i would i would argue that the style because you seem to be making a argument that the style the stylistic element of the whatever it is the violence it like has some sort of influence over how you feel but i i i think that's completely wrong i think that all the style does is crank up whatever moral component there is to the scene like if it's uh the boys and obviously he's being bad or doing bad things the style component raises up that feeling of oh my god this is so terrible and if it's someone good you know batman good destroying someone who deserves it it cranks up that oh my god this is so good but i don't think the style is even a style is like the volume but the moral component is you know the feeling he mentioned slow mo as being a component of like glorifying it it's slow mo and gringoblin punches spiderman at the end of the climax when he's i completely disagree i completely disagree i think all the slow mo does is crank up whatever moral component is going the um that final fight we're all very aware that spiderman's life is at risk and they're doing slow mo hits so patrick would have to concede that the slow mo is being used there to actually show us how horrifying the violence is horrifying exactly yes and so this is the thing you feel like you can use all of these things to do the opposite of what he's saying it's just like you know your argument's not that it's leaking it's leaking everywhere i wish i wish we could ask him yeah i mean like not talking about what led up to the violence the i mean i hate to say the obvious here but the actual story uh the payoff like maybe that has something to do with it too you know it's not just we're not just there to see i'm waiting for batman to fight i don't care what the words he's saying out of his mouth or what everybody else is saying i'm just here for the you know like 66 batman for the pow died yeah it's it's i don't yeah sounds like he was light on material needed to come up with something i will i mean i think it's clear this was a rushed video yeah which is weird because it's one of his longest ones but like you just seems upset this is a lot of there's not a lot talking about what i thought there would be talked about you know consider my expectations subverted the story takes decades later when the kid has grown up and longs for the fun and adventure these stories used to have he's a stand-in for the adult comic book reader who loved superhero comics as a kid and never moved past them so in the story when michael maran remembers his magic word and can fly again it starts off as a glorious thrill until the real world seeps in until the gross cynical truth behind those innocent early adventures is revealed and miracle man encounters his former sidekick who is godlike powers have turned him into a monstrous psychopath the series culminates in a massive superhero battle that is not fun at all it's a genocidal nightmare it's like morris saying okay you want superheroes for adults well it's not gonna be cool or indulgent it's going to be awful Jesus fucking christ there's more than one way you can do this like look at that image okay i don't think appealing to sadist is like the widest audience you can grab it seems well i'm guessing the point you're supposed to be like look at this horrifying like this is how this is what can happen when people with so much power left in a realistic adult world you know like okay chill this seems silly it's going to is a bit far for me like there's literally a woman walking there with both of her arms taken off and no eyes like okay yeah it is a little horrifying disturbing end the story points to a new way forward it moves beyond the classic superhero tropes and conflicts as miracle man remakes the entire world abolishing all weapons and money what the fuck if only there were no weapons or money how do you even do that what do you use magic i'm guessing i don't know has he gone to like the outdoors where there are no weapons and money abolishing weapons and money will get rid of all the killers cure racism everybody will live together they won't fashion new weapons or find new ways to trade find new barter probably old porn that's what i'm thinking i agree with it and uh yeah i think uh that's a great answer it's funny the first there's no political slant from alan more who by the way is an adult fucking wizard i yeah the first half of that was like interesting to me when he was explaining it like oh you know a hero grows up but he finds out a lot of when he was younger as a hero there was also cynical shit behind it and then you know a friend of his from when he was younger is older and powerful now and is doing things he doesn't approve i was like this this could be a cool story that it's like we abolish weapons and money i know yeah it's listen i like this what it came out okay there's there's things when you read them in at their time they're fine uh they're they're played out now you know mark wade used to be able to to write and uh he did basically a ripoff of this irredeemable uh and tried to jack it up even worse and they were trying to out edge lord each other in the mid two thousands and i just shared with you guys don't have to share i'm like avatar press which is just which just a gorefest it's by it's violence porn that's all it is yeah that there's that aspect but what what moller just said there's another way you can portray it too and yeah cherry picking this one uh everybody's copying watchmen there's a bunch of people didn't even know miracle man existed so yeah i guess that's the point he's making use like there was the watchman before the watchman you know and it's like all right the idea of taking stuff that we often associate with like an altruistic happy sort of thing and turning it on its head it's like i think it's going to predate even miracle man all right it's an age old idea it's superhero stories for adults can be full of challenging new ideas not just amped up a gritty violent versions of what we've seen before yeah but that's like the shallow version like oh let's take spider man and make him rip his head off this is like okay i don't care if spider man's ripping people's heads off or not that sounds lame and it's like what do you want to do is actually like there's so much that comes with trying to convert something from child friendly to teenage friendly to adult friendly and to reduce it down to the woman without her eyes and arms or something okay but i mean that seems to be the main contention here it's like what is what is the point of our rated right really depends on who's making it what they want to do oh check out this one gritty's wearing a suit he's classy but he still knows how what am i gonna notice about this channel is that it tries really hard to be pretentious but it's extremely shallow in surface level yeah oh man like there's really it's really so is this what you do for every video no it kind of varies sometimes i just sit there and listen sometimes i operate the camera i was in the band for the talk show oh yeah i did that too it's weird that patrick doesn't seem to remember i think he just took it hard when you didn't come back there were a lot of disappointments around that time the good thing about this is that it gives us a lot of time cut out of the video that we don't have to watch you know yeah that's true um it's it makes me think about how awkward it must be to make a video like here's the script you guys are gonna talk about me this zoom call anyway okay uh-huh so this is self-insert done incorrectly that's what he's saying what's our job title anyway you know i uh never actually asked maybe i should oh my god look at this it's gritty dressed as rocky hell yeah that's what i'm talking about this notebook smells good i kind of like it now i have no idea what's going on yeah does anyone know what's happening can enlighten me somebody tell me what's happening in this these are the skippable parts of the video you put them in there as buffers so we can all come back down and then we go back up something about a wet script something about a super wet script and this guy that's been popping up fight club style but i don't in fight club we find out why the scenes were spliced in are we gonna find out in this i'm skeptical chat are having plenty of fun they all seem very happy about this it almost seems like they want us to to play it again or something sorry guys yeah only once we can't uh we can't let the lunatics run the asylum why why let them play it again go ahead there's a quote from we just wrote the great all ages comic thwer the mighty avenger that i think about a lot he said you don't think i really don't think marvel and dc are helping things by having gritty r-rated versions of their superheroes in their main comics how prevalent is this like i guess gary's r-rated versions of superheroes well in main comics because i don't i wouldn't know i didn't know i mean the the roger perspective is that what you're saying people are complaining about yeah i don't think it's no it's well i don't know i'm asking is it is it is it really common now is it like a lot of comics are just r-rated now it's not r-rated it's not the real you know well okay i mean i'm not selling newer comics now but no i mean they're they're well they're they're not violent they everybody's talking about well who they're gonna screw and everybody's turning gay right now so yay that that's a video that needs to be made you know uh maybe we'll start adapting phoenix you know turning iceman gay oh there you go we can have what's the point of gay superheroes exactly um you know it's the gritty the gritty thing was played out but like i said before that's what comic books do and uh they missed the opportunity of kind of returning back to heroism because of intersectional feminism and going woke and just turning into trash and hiring shitty comic book writers who aren't even who have probably never even seen a comic book until they got hired at marvel because they were hired for their politics it has much bigger problems and roger langridge i i don't that's not the problem comics have right now or yeah the r-rated gritty thing he's conflating it with with films and it's not even a problem in the film i was about to say if you saw about films i would have to completely disagree it's like this hardly any what do you mean like r-rated superhero movies how many r-rated superhero movies have we had i mean superhero movies not adaptions what birds pray oh joker a pool logan watchman well too low game and then it's like far that's a glut it's anyone thought oh well that's still a significant amount of like let's name the ones that aren't r-rated we'll be here for a while air devil hellboy constant team the punisher all right like the constant r-rated superhero movies oh i didn't know that the crow blade trinity oh birdman the fendor everything in the mcu basically judge dredd oh where devil yeah i assumed dredd was r-rated a constant team was pretty badass i don't know if constant team could be is that superhero really i don't know absolutely be rated r they should not make a pg 13 oh dude constant team is like perfect for r-rated with the fucking demons and like suicide shit yeah she killed herself oh no be for vendetta there you go the movie was all right yeah super hard wire with panel anderson is r-rated what about um what was that i see what was the superhero movie was the one with pabla radisson is what was his superhero name was here here here's your example kick ass two press to please rest kick ass two is r-rated but kick kick ass one i think is probably pg 13 because it's not on the list so there's your example of the person seeing i saw kick ass and now i have to wait i have to wait for kick ass two damn it again i'm still not even like convinced that that's such a bad thing i don't know how i'd feel if i really enjoyed like a pg movie and then the next year they released a sequel that was r-rated so i had to wait until i was older i don't know how i'd feel i guess i'd be annoyed but like i'd watch it oh well these kids are watching for me but jeez it's not like well that's the thing you never know i'm gonna not be able to see the r-rated movie right ratings of guidelines right you never know what a kid is going to not be able to handle you never know and the age of unlimited free porn yeah yeah well i i mean i was sneaking in the movies when i was like 10 so i mean to this day there's still stuff and i didn't care i didn't care about the rating so much well um we no like we've gone over it before but like uh any of you guys seem bone tomahawk this is an example i use quite a bit there's no there's a scene in it that is gore related but it's not excessive like elie roth it's done in such a way that it was like the first time in so long that i've seen gore in the movie that maybe go like oh what like it's like jeez it's like the sound sound effects and the the way they did it um and so what i was saying is i see silenced the labs when i'm like eight and it doesn't bother me at all and i see this movie when i'm absolutely old enough to see it and i have a worse reaction so it's just like yeah it's complicated we don't really quite know what what yeah totally all right i saw alien uh well i'm going to show my age now i saw alien and a 20 minute version when back in the 70s if we wanted to see a movie outside the theater they they used to make these 16 millimeter or eight millimeter films that are that are shorter edited down versions like star wars and alien so i saw the alien come out of a stomach when i was eight freaked my shit yeah but i love but i know i loved it i was like yeah i had it's fascinating as i get to watch stuff like that yeah the face hugger scene was like crazy just a guy like why do you stick his face in there what a dumbass yep and we've talked about it before but like there are movies that are like not at all rated high like the pg and then there's some of the stuff in them you remember forever because you're like that was terrifying and it's like yeah the rating system didn't think so you know that's how it goes mm-hmm yeah anyway uh anyway gritty are rated versions of their superheroes in their main comics what they sell as the real versions while simultaneously selling those exact same characters in kids comics and plastering them all over lunch boxes and animated cartoons so so he is making the argument that the ip should be consistent that's basically the argument he's making and then his rating that's weird it is yeah i look at this thing make less much i'm not sure like how to properly make the consistent argument here of just like but is it that bad though if like there are versions that are just you know that you're like oh this is i like this character he's across all these different mediums i've seen batman's parents get killed seven times so i know that it's not all one continuity and there's this one that only my parents can see and i can't see it yet 14 parents and is that so bad and i'm just like i don't think so um and i think really honestly if this was prior to 2017 i might have trouble generating real-world examples but i really feel like logan kind of just proves this is true just like it's done the fact that you took something that was so kid friendly in the um the x-men movies even though they're like it's more so for teens i guess those movies but i mean fuck it kids love them um logan is definitely not for kids that movie is is not something you'd want your uh your 10 year old to be watching you'd be like nah that's probably a bit much um but it worked and if someone was like yeah but logan uh you know you know i was i was about to say look what is logan's full name is just logan and then huge uh uh wolverine is his like code name i forget um logan jackman logan jackman yeah um if someone was like you can't make him r rated he's children expect to be able to watch stuff that relates to him i should be like yeah but then we don't get logan so i don't know that i think this is a good standard i guess you can't make that standard that standard's ridiculous and i think it does fit in the face of the whole idea that your audience grows with the content too that you can't yeah that too that too exactly very complicated um i understand like i guess but again it comes back to what we were just talking about like there's some kids out there who maybe they saw x-men you know 2000 and the rest of them a year before and they were the right age for a year before logan came out that they saw logan they were like oh my god logan's fucking amazing like even if they were like 11 this is how complicated it gets because obviously the the assumption here is that children of that age can't can't be watching stuff like logan not only because of the age rating like legally but also it'll fuck them up they can't see that but it's like well and by the time they're old enough to watch stuff like logan they already have like a brain that can compartmentalize different like iterations of the same superhero like in like a basic adult like the the low low low bar of being an adult being able to do that just distinguish between different fictions does does logan definitively take place in the x-men universe or is it an alternate reality that you're looking at i mean we don't know it definitely references it but it you could definitely consider it like a an else world what if thing if you wanted to yeah and i think that's a great idea i think that's a brilliant idea that's the one thing dc that's why warner brothers is stupid they should be killing marvel and film right now because they can tell stories marvel can't because they're stuck in a continuity and they can make fun they can have you know tim burton's batman come back you know michael keaton and oh yeah brand new one right now you know they tell me maguire should be in a spider-man four with sam ramy it would make all the money in the world but then oh my god you know in spider-man three which i guess isn't going to happen now spider-man should be r-rated everyone's heads need to explore us yeah one time one time i lost a tna the brand i mean we're way past brand confusion we're way beyond that and and i think uh there's been a lot of comic creators to go i think they're just trying to rationalize why their industry is falling apart and they just don't ever want to recognize what the real problem is you know guys going out and attacking fans on twitter and they've just alienated customers for the last five years and people are fucking sick of it and their story sucks they really do have horrific talent the art is bad uh i mean give me violence over you know i wasn't joking when you know she hulk sitting around a table eating food talking about a youtuber that that was an actual storyline justifiable violence so gary because they mix it up in like uh captain marvel like oh god it's ambiguous like when she's stealing some dude's fucking motorcycle and what did that guy do wrong well y'all did a smile y'all's for a smile that makes it well that's that is like the that's the decapitation over jaywalking that's exactly what that is he's probably a nazi though he probably you know and it's okay to punch them you couldn't tell by his skin color of course he was a nazi jesus if you got punched no see this these Thanos with the infinity gauntlet right just bounced right back from that but of course in wand division we found out that uh you know captain marvel could have just taken out Thanos by herself with the infinity gauntlet oh totally you know what they should have had a throw a line like i would argue that Thanos she gave him a chance i would argue that thing where no you first you first i'll be quick i swear it's like they say oh you know what she could have taken him out she just didn't want you know it'd be too easy you know it's like we're gonna we're gonna get Thanos a shot otherwise it's boring you know captain we all could be here right we wouldn't want him to waste their trip so i just want to make a comment about moral ambiguity because the moral ambiguity in captain marvel doesn't work at all but i would argue that the the moral ambiguity in the Thanos character is great and adds like a whole another dimension to it but they're dealing with like real ideas there in captain marvel they're dealing with like intersectional feminism like you know isn't it terrible for me to be walking down the street and get cat called out like that's that's their moral lens capability there and to bolster you on that movie because some people don't quite share this point or don't really see it this way but like i think it's important you have um their life cycle in that movie is he's a hardcore member of the kree he goes down to the planet she slowly learns that the kree are full of shit and she's been taught something bullshit her whole life and then the kree attack are attacking earth and she's got three major ships i think and she blows up one of them she flies through it and just explodes the whole thing killing every single person inside and then she says ronan leave or i'll you know fuck you up too it's just like whoa she just killed like could it be thousands of people who were just like her a day ago yeah wow because the thing is they've been lying we don't know how many of these people like and you might be like well they were attacking earth though and it's like it's not really about whether or not you should have killed them that's a different conversation is that there's no acknowledgement even attempts at anything else but the film's unaware of this the film is just like those bad guys like but that was her yesterday like what do you mean this is the lens on morality is they lie to her so they all deserve to die well i mean that's probably that's what i get that's the message i get that's what i'm trying to bring up is the many were lied to in the kree culture because there's no fucking way that every single person in the kree culture was in on the the meme except her like everybody is aware that how they're totally evil they just pretend to be good it's like no i'm pretty sure a lot of people are being sold along the same lie she was do you remember go ahead they had the exact same problem as star wars because it's like finn is brainwashed as a stormtrooper and the last one they meet a bunch of stormtroopers who ran away and yet every time they kill them it's like oh look they kill another stormtrooper yeah yeah that guy well yeah um because that's the thing right empathizing with them now through the mouth right um right now they're still white you can only empathize with the black words if you had a if you had to wipe them out and she recognizes like this is the necessary like thing to do to save earth and stuff it'll be one thing but she yeah she's like whoo-hoo when she slams through the ship and you're just like oh my gosh oh my god that's so bad because um a lot of people are got a new hope as a comparison where they're like but Han Solo is like a cowboy saying yee-ha sort of thing when he it's like yeah when he saves luke from about to be shot by Darth Vader to destroy the death star is about to blow up old uh sorry Yavin 4 right it's just like that's a little different i think right yeah and the empire trading new hope is being morally ambiguous at all yeah they're bad no very bad nobody's being lied to on that death star they they know what they're doing you know why you're here carl to blow up planets yeah exactly press the button i don't think we'd actually do it you gotta put food on the table okay gosh and here i was thinking moral ambiguity was not knowing how to properly identify mushrooms oh oh my god your ship by kids or by parents for their kids is effectively impossible the way things are captured casual readership is effectively impossible because of how things are structured bullshit casual reships are possible that's not true at all that's insane possible not because of this issue possible because like if you try to get into a comic that's got like 10 years of backstory that you need to understand to get into it well no because like the implication of this statement is i have a kid and he's like oh man i'm buying the new iron man or iron hot whatever the fuck it is it's like i'm gonna go buy all the it's cool they also made this little tv show anime it's really cool i'm gonna go watch this iron man by by by who is it a quentin tarantino okay yeah whatever oh my god there's blood everywhere ah i can't even casually enjoy my iron man now because i might slip into something super adult it's like that doesn't happen that's ridiculous isn't this a whole point of the rating system i mean jesus christ it says i'll rate it on it if i pick up as a kid a movie called like happy this happened with happy tree friends it's rated like 18 i remember being like what what is happy tree friends it's like but it's a cartoon yeah so good it's what's what i mean it's it's a really fun thing to find out but like as if people just oh you know what i just i accidentally fell into watching it like i'll rate it things like no you didn't that's bullshit not really not happening and it's an exception if anything and he's like all casual readership you just can't do it anymore like you know okay so a children's book writer i mean like i've said this before not in all cases but in most uh the last person i would ask about the sales of a comic or how to sell a comic book is somebody who writes it or draws it from a store in a store perspective they they they don't understand the business side of it for the most part not everybody some people do and they do very well when they figure that out but uh yeah no it's up to the wherever you sell the comics for like i have a kids section and i direct the kids or i parking lot yeah right uh no it's usually in the back room in the van the white van oh shit gary stay away from the white van now go take you to the back cave no the back cave no actually my kid section had bronze comics in it i didn't even buy the modern uh because they're dumbed down they're the guys like roger lang whatever's name is would dumb down like a Thor comic and i would just rather read have them read the comics i read as a kid that were made uh supposedly for 8 to 12 year olds that i still enjoy now so maybe i'm immature i don't give a shit uh and that's that's how i got kids reading comics it depends on the person selling them and it depends on the parent you can't just say like mauler said you know there was violence and one thing the character's ruined forever and can we also remind everybody that kids have parents like if your kid is like i want to know everything to do with iron man and you find out iron man is about 50% friendly to kids 30% friendly only to teenagers and then 20% is all mature stuff it's on you to get all that children related stuff and provide them to your kid okay don't make the kid go i'm just gonna casually check out a google iron man oh no is all this violence i'm traumatized now thanks disney also you know it's like what do you mean this doesn't happen no we have to save space the world man that's exactly what we have to do kids have to be able to go anywhere this was like the whole meme i remember back in the day parents would be like you can't see this 18 movie and i'm like oh man you go into a video game store and you pick a bulk hub at resident evil this is legit happened to be i saw the 18 ratings and i was like hmm can i have these and my dad was like yeah look it's a game they didn't my tears didn't take games seriously they were like oh it's a game it's fucking it's like little pixels doing stupid things like who cares what 18 months right and luckily for me they never like with resident evil i remember when i first booted up they never walked in on you no because like this near the beginning you you open that door and there's just a zombie eating someone and it slowly turns towards you and i would be like jesus christ this is terrible this isn't mario yep um more combat though never struck me as too violent i was just having fun because the context of those games violence is so different again which i guess i'm just talking about how kids take violence is so the realism adds a completely different level to it it does yeah like if it's if it's real you're like oh my goodness holy cow what have i stumbled into i mean i can remember all the movies that affected me that way when you're like this is weird i love it though the moral complexity is the most interesting thing about movies for you i like it when heads explode i think it's the but that's part of it that's part of it that's a huge part of it and i think the far now to claw that ground back i think it's insane that dc has spent 70 years making superman as big as mickey mouse and branding him to be understood by parents as being pretty much as kid friendly as except for the movies that have a clear r rating posters yes all right yeah now we need to talk about what is it dumb our parents if there's two operations happening at once here being what is created for them as content and what people are being told about them in terms of who they're friendly for it's going to be pretty hard to separate those two things if they made 50 years of r rated superman just ripping people to shreds and then someone was like yeah but they had 70 years of making of a friendly person so now i'm confused like what do you mean just look at the fucking rating you weirdo it's not hard yeah you'll figure it out it has an r that means don't show it to kids because this is an entirely different argument at this point this is actually advocating that people are going to get confused and then end up watching something they didn't want it's like you just have to read yeah yeah it also goes counter to patrick's point because patrick's point was violence and adult themes is fine as long as you're deconstructing it but this guy's point is completely different he's just saying no no characters that are on kids lungs boxes should ever be portrayed as r rated characters yeah and he said only to piss that brand away implying more so a monetary like uh consequence now which again i don't give a fuck to be honest with you if someone if someone said like well if we make our child friendly thing adult friendly now we might lose a viewership whatever i'd be like okay but i'm assuming you you weren't doing it to make more money you were doing it because you want to tell that story and again um if someone was like well you may not care about it but they might i'd be like yeah well that would be valid but like i thought we were talking about some things more meaningful than what makes the most money you know at that point i should be like yeah i mean there's lots of things you could do to make the most money it's that brand away in a decade nothing wrong with doing mature content in comics in fact it should be encouraged as often as possible i mean i agree it's not the maturity of superman that has led to his i guess i don't know if it's not downfall per se but lack of quality it's not the r-rating again we we come to this impasse of like being our rating doesn't mean being adult content they're not entirely synonymous this just indicative like if it's r-rated then surely it'll be for adults it's like well yes yes it's about quality yeah we want i'm more than happy for someone to have an adult take on any content as if it's well written like go for it um and again we're sort of tossing around with like adult mature um all all it really is trying to come to is just talking about things or presenting things that children are typically if you sit a kid down who's like eight years old you're like let's talk about addiction and the results of bottling up grief to the point of taking your own life the kids would be like what you're like oh well okay okay i guess you don't want to talk about that that's fine like the best you'll get in terms of like a pixar type movie is only things that could be allegorically represent that sort of thing where a daddle is like oh i can kind of see a message here and the kid is like huh i was just looking at the characters running around doing little things i can't imagine the intro of up not disturbing children i mean i think that was a risk that intro is a bit risky like a lot of kids probably did not enjoy it they were probably like i'm gonna gear i'm gonna go out on a limb and say that that movie is not r-rated either like they're really just talking about sex and violence they're not talking about like uh adult subject matter the beginning of up is very much adult subject matter is it not i mean it's like the same thing you spelled out yeah why can't i fuck a baby into this woman oh she died yeah exactly oh yeah um because he said nothing wrong with your mature content as well which by the way you probably don't want to bring that up after everything you just said yeah but doing it with characters who are on your kids lunchboxes is kind of moronic i don't even know what to say about this people put fucking robocop terminator alien predator they were all on lunchboxes too they would never i found a birds of prey lunchbox i looked it up i think we need to like reevaluate what we what we're thinking about when we say kids like when i was a kid i fucking like i said i loved predator predator was fucking amazing it was like oh yeah that children's tv show yeah how to catch a predator oh i have a little chris hansen on my on my lunchbox he's my favorite oh my god don't talk shit about my lunchbox or i'll find out where you live oh the characters who were on your kids lunchboxes is kind of moronic explain yourself why take a lesson from watchmen and come up with new characters for that stuff and then go back to superman and why and put the same kind of love and effort and craft and intelligence you've been putting into all those rape scenes and so if it's watchmen content it can't be creative or intelligently made yeah to be honest with you now it seems like he's more so saying because at first i thought he was trying to say like remove the gratuitous nature and make batman superman mature sure that's fine but then he went on to say like no actually don't do that for things that are on kids lunchboxes do it for something new and so now it feels a little bit scattered well why doesn't patrick use this argument against star wars or any of the other stuff i mean this is would he use this argument when people exploring new territory when star wars does it it's a new take on star wars i mean would patrick make this argument if someone's complaining about you know why is miles morales black why spider-man black now why don't they make a new character yes they're gonna agree with that i think we could reflect this back on him yeah because um this is the thing when you talk about adaptation changing elements and keeping elements like shouldn't everything be on the table that's oh yeah that's yeah so hypocritical because that's the argument that i thought patrick and and people in that genre have been making for so long about you know being able to insert politics or change the gender sexuality or race of characters so the human centipede lunchbox i'm getting one of those oh definitely um and yeah also this seems like a little bit bitter it's like it just turns to bitter it's like go back to superman about and put the kind of same kind of love and effort and craft and intelligence you've been putting into all those rape scenes and body view that mutilation it's like okay is there a rape scene in batman or superman it seems like i don't know that i remember i wanted to put it in there every time they have sex with someone is great because of the politics involved okay okay well that makes sense yeah you're right i forgot about that intersectional feminism exactly yeah quote mutilation into something kids can read and adults can also be proud to read because of all the love and effort and craft and intelligence i'm not proud of my rape fetish but um right at this point it just seems like he's not advocating at all for what he sounded like he was at this point he just he just doesn't like gratuitous violence or right nudity which again it's like that's a different argument different thing or yeah or i don't know i mean he kind of seems to be dwelling he's not talking about marvel very much obviously because there is anything but yeah there's not this glut of violent rated r movies that's the thing that's kind of yeah because i just like that's the vibe content the vibe of the video it's like stop this from happening we're all looking around like what's happening oh all right mit we did it hooray and it's funny because he compares himself he's like i'm not being hella lovejoy from simpsons who's the stereotype like thinking the children but it's like you kind of are though like you know what he brought up they always pull these they always pull these quotes out to kind of add like some authority to their video and stuff but i always feel like it's super safe for them because they can say oh you know these aren't my words this isn't the way i feel i'm just pulling up someone that i yeah exactly but it's not me you know it's kind of it's kind of safe i want to know what this guy feels not what he thinks this other guy feels yeah they never do that because yeah it's hard to it sometimes it gets hard to like sort of pass out who you're supposed to be talking to but like at this point it's like okay your issue is that it's roger guys i need a kid loves his batman puts it on his lunchbox and then one day he watches a film with batman gets raped or something he's like he's rubber patents in his batman yeah i'm taking you to the bat rape dungeon you're like oh no it's like we can't have this happen we need to find a better way the better way is make your own fucking thing called rape band and he does the rape but you're like oh okay robin it's time to slide down the bat pole and i think we can all agree that the other solution is hey you know that our rated batman just don't let your kid watch it until they're older they're full of that where's the white van mobile right man has a white van mobile very very well named very adult and shows the real versions i think this sums it all up pretty perfectly no it's confusing and weird but i know sums it up perfectly what this is why i have absolutely no problem with things like watchmen are the boys because those characters only exist in those stories they were created exclusively for adults and there's no kids version happening simultaneously you can't do this when we've already gone over how much kids love like adult shit again with the the ludge but you made the lunchbox compares it was like the ludge box people had all kinds of show the ludge boxes that went for them like he's yeah modern warfare two is full of 12 year olds do we um i guess like to prove this it's like patrick what if i told you that we we polled uh 100 of the children audience of batman and we told them do you want a batman who hits criminals harder maybe there's some blood involved of these children the majority of them voted yes would you at that point just be like well they don't know what they want okay they're wrong like all right they know what they want yeah they do i mean i i still remember being that age just like hell yeah i'll watch a batman who hits harder sure this is still like a like a boy girl thing too boys like violence far more than girls do so they want to see their try movies yeah exactly yeah and something like the dark night returns sure it's about that i just want to say too that i nailed it with the ip consistency like that's exactly what he's advocating here man but it's an out of continuity miniseries it's not the main ongoing batman oh oh so you're okay with it in the ip as long as it's else will type shit or what if or alternative so it's now it's not about the ip it's about the literal timeline all these what is actually criticize we don't even know what he's got he doesn't want a mainline timeline to ever change its audience it has if ever it does it either has to be a different ip or it has to move outside of the universe which by the way you can just treat it that way yeah because i'm assuming that's how people are treating the dc movies no one's looking at the zack sider ones is a continuation of the michael keaton batman movie no no dude people even now this night or right it's funny because like even as a kid i never treated um the schumacher batman movies as continued from the timburton ones i thought they would knew and it's like no this shit can't do this like i guess even as a kid i knew there was the animated show there was the batman and robin stuff and there was the other thing like they were clearly different yep you know what i really think made him do this it's because he knows he can't he can't advocate that we don't have dark knight returns right he has to account for that and so now he's like okay that's okay but he is why it's because they said it's an else will thing um i wonder if we could just have something like logan you might you might even say it now that logan's acceptable because of that reason um but again as you just said couldn't we treat all of the dcu this way can you just and even if it wasn't right even if the creator said no no it's absolutely mainline you could still as a parent be like sorry child this is not mainline you can't say yet like simple as that i don't know yeah it's an alternate version of the character made for an older audience which is why it's kind of weird that that's the version that zack sider based his main canonical does that not make your entire point fall apart though like it does yeah he's like oh zack sider shouldn't be doing it this way but it is weird that he had he did the one that i said was okay to do in the way that he did it it's like wait but that yeah that's in line with you why is that wrong at all in the first place they're weird why is it weird he chose that one i don't understand like the isn't that the one he should choose if you want to from patrick's perspective i mean i mean patrick's argument would only apply if there were no previous batman movies if the very first batman movie was you know gritty batman in the con and that didn't match the comics then he'd have an argument but that does not even work if the first one was like all you'd be advocating for there is like why didn't you choose mainline instead of what if for your first right but that is is that the mainline should be kid friendly or something um but it's an adaptation shortly just because it's the first adaptation doesn't mean it has to be the mainline one does it i mean i don't agree with that it's a bad right right yeah right okay i understand like that's the least argument would be consistent with himself yeah because well maybe he thinks it all the batman movies haven't been correct adaptations there are some people who feel that way um yeah so i don't know i'm confused now because as soon as you open up that you can um alternate universe it in your own head canon it's like yeah so surely we're now fine anything goes that man anyway when allen moore wrote superman comics they weren't full of murder and brutal violence they were very much in the mold of classic superman stories for the classic superman audience now the other allen moore comic we must bring up is the killing joke the famous batman story in which the joker shoots barbra gordon through the spine strips her clothes off and photographs her naked writhing in pain and uses these photos to torment her father who is bound and gagged in bondage gear well okay it's odd good book you damn it i love it it's got a great reputation i've not read it but like wow yeah that's what i hear i never saw it as anything other than an else world right uh and ate it canon you know but when i was reading it at the time i just kind of thought it was uh like dark knight returns that's if someone said like they read that story to me they're like do you think this is the mainline source of batman i've been like probably i don't think so probably an offshoot like this is what it was like when it came out it was 87 so i was 17 and that's about the right age to read it i thought it was the coolest effing thing i ever read the arts amazing and it was different back then i mean now it's just it's played out but i loved it yeah all right let's see what he's got to say about this it's uh pretty grim definitely grimmer than a regular batman story and so for decades it has been held up by fans as one of the best ever stories about these characters but alan more himself called it a regrettable misstep i don't give a fuck i don't give a fuck if he said it's a regrettable misstep i don't care if george lucas tomorrow said the empire strikes backs was was shit i shouldn't have made it that wouldn't change a god damn thing nope and he shouldn't think it does either death of the author is something these people talk about all the time like it bye bye author doesn't matter if you think it's bad or a mistake i'm sorry justin timberlake just made a big apology yesterday for all the stuff he doesn't really regret doing it all so yeah and don't listen to alan more he's i love him as a writer he's a great writer and he's a little off not judging anybody but he really does think he's a wizard so that's okay he's a little jaded too he's a very yes yeah i yeah okay jaded off the charts off charts he said i've been told the joker film wouldn't exist without my joker story but three months after i'd written that i was disowning it it was far too violent it was batman for christ's sake it's a guy dressed as you just said that it's okay to do this if it was an alternative timeline and now you're saying like no i can't do it because it's batman can you make up your mind like when is it after saying it well that's what i mean it's like you're presenting this as though it adds to your argument but it's like it's totally against yours so you need to contextualize it differently the best version of batman was adam west which didn't take it serious okay hard to disagree yeah i don't know about that i mean it's it's fun in a goofy way but yeah i don't i don't really mind what anybody thinks is the best version i'm just like yeah it's fine but like why also is your best why does it say i've been told the joker film wouldn't exist without my joker story as if this is like regrettably the joker movie was inspired by my work i just feel like i mean the movie's pretty awesome so you made a great comic can you inspire a great movie like okay yeah i don't know you don't seem too happy about this what's wrong with you i won't even i won't even believe that i mean the killing joke in the joker movie i don't i don't seem that similar i can believe it was inspired uh it's just that it's obviously doing loads of different things to the point of there's no real like batman isn't in batman is like an ip really isn't in that much of the joker movie uh with obviously walking phoenix because there's probably gonna be more than one joker movie eventually um it's it's a it's clearly a character study and he's called a joker in it and he wears the makeup but like this is a point of um criticism for a lot of fans right they're like it doesn't have enough of the source in it and so it annoys them and i understand that i'm just saying that uh you can see where pieces came in from uh what may have been read i'm pretty sure uh the director's on record is having said the killing joke is definitely referenced and inspired it there's probably where he's gotten this from a bat and crink the best version of batman was adam west which didn't take it at all seriously whoa alan go off so tell us what you think about superheroes in general well uh it's weird that he's like the best version is the version that didn't take it seriously it's like hmm this feels weird okay should it not be treated seriously i was like intrinsically you should not treat it seriously well so this quote is something else i mean we haven't heard patrick read it out yet so i guess we'll let him do that interest in superheroes they were a thing that was invented in the late 1930s for children and they are perfectly good as children's entertainment but if you try to make them for the adult world then i think it becomes kind of grotesque so alan more is an idiot yeah so that's what i'm pulling away from these quotes is that alan more is a fucking moron what do you even say to this like hmm i'm like i scoot away slowly from him at the weird wherever it is that i've met him at the gas station like he's behind you in line and he just is randomly talking and you just want to pay for your gas in your snickers bar and leave you just want to get away from him that's how i picture alan more like we're a weird guy at that gas station in sedona arizona i feel like we'll be we're just greek mythology fit in with this oh i'm curious right well i mean it is i mean greek mythology is kind of superheroes from a thousand years ago right it's fucking awesome yeah it's all his politics he's like leaned hard into you know he's very anti-patriarchy and any kind of violence is jingoism and whatever yeah it's it's all his politics he's just gotten crazier as he's gotten over and yeah he's a comic writer it's talking about by the way i'm trying to make them for the adult world becomes grotesque see you look at um iron man again i like bringing him up because he's one of my favorites all right and it's just like this this story of a man who through his intelligence and his the family he was was bought into and his you know technology investment he's created weapons and he sold them and he's made a really good life for himself as a result those weapons end up being used by people to do horrible things to other people and then it's like he as a result of obviously this already is he can design himself a suit that makes him more powerful than basically any one person on the planet and he's he's he's going to change because he has the power to people being able to use that against him and he's usually portrayed if i remember correctly he's like he's got he's an alcoholic as well as feeling as though he's responsible for a lot of what is essentially absolute misery in the world and it's like you see it becomes grotesque when you try and tell that story for an adult it's like that already sounds like an adult story that's a kid's story though clearly what you just described for me was like that's like after dora yeah there's iron man yeah so it's so i remember learning about arms dealers in preschool yep day one it's it's everything's got to go to extreme streams right so you know adults can't uh enjoy superhero films because it's uh you know it's it's arrested development or something like that you can't be an adult and enjoy superhero stuff that's i mean that's utter bullshit you know i like my stuff i like superhero stuff and then i can be a dad i can turn dad on yeah whenever the fuck i want i'm not i'm not stuck in one mindset all the time but at the same time give me any film that is definitively like adult and then you know you do and it's like okay so what if i made this film but i also added in that one of these characters was born with an ability that gave them stronger strength than anyone else and then they started fighting crimes like oh well you've become grotesque now oh and childish okay i didn't realize that those variables because this is the thing i don't you know when people talk about genre and they're like superheroes a genre i'm always just like superheroes i couldn't isn't superhero just encompasses like everything the only variable is that someone has power that puts them you know higher than other people's ability and then they decide to fight with it for whatever reason um yeah and you won't make it could be noir it could be a rom-com it could be anything yeah that's and you can do a superhero it's like imagine alien then you go okay but uh you know dallas he's he's got laser vision you should be like okay and not say like oh this wouldn't be good i'm gonna say no i'm just saying like does that out that i guess he could use it on the alien maybe we should make it he can go invisible and it's just something that he can do it's just what i'm trying to argue is like suddenly it becomes like this it's superhero now i'd be like that's weird like what if it never even comes up it's just something he could do someone here said alan moore wrote a graphic novel about wendy from peter pan alice from alice in wonderland and northy from the wizard of os telling their sexual adventures when they grew up what yep oh they say that kind of makes patrick's argument is also they're not super you see the person yeah of course yeah women do the person asking you about how's the Thor apparently at some point had to dress up as a girl to get his hammer back from a frost giant what did that happen in the comic books that sounds hilarious i can do it i want to see this in Thor 4 okay actually no they would probably make it really lower the destroyer i'd watch it yeah lost girls that's that's the name of the graphic novel that came out and he's still writing stuff like that he's alan moore's full of shit he's the kind of guy who like one bad thing happens to him and it the whole day is bad it might my day is bad i can't get over this one bad thing that happened oh yeah and i think some people are like a little bit like rags and i are not commenting on alan moore's ability as a writer okay simply these comments he just comes across as a crazy person at a gas station that you want to get away from if he wasn't writing combooks he would be that crazy guy at the gas station if that's a picture of him then he looks like a crazy person at the gas station but he's a good homeless person who snuck in and is just biding his time in the air conditioning before he's asked to leave and he doesn't have to work he doesn't have to work for the rest of his life because he wrote superhero comic books and he cashed a lot of checks now he does give away a lot of money he refuses to take any residuals from watchmen the film he doesn't want his name on it so he's got you know at least he's got a little bit of integrity there but that's a lot of integrity oh yeah i can respect integrity it's just that his beliefs are strange okay they're just strange and worth discussing i think because yeah the because i'm still in my head to unfavorable point the better explain the point i was making with um having a superhero ability right does that then make you a superhero genre movie it's like i don't think so it's it's no and so there's more that comes with it and it's just like is it automatically grotesque if ever is for adults i just find it it's all very strange i maybe be interested to talk to him about it i don't know i don't know that he might be a little set in his position might not be with him well he recently came out and basically said if you like superhero comics you're a youtzi oh great did uh pulled a Pedro Pascal recently you told me really yeah it was like all superheroes are fundamentally fascist right yeah they're fundamentally fascist and you like it you're one too where's indiana jones fit in that in that uh idea because i don't necessarily know still a nazi just thing internalize nazi of them it's especially relevant with um iod man because he doesn't actually have any powers he has technology and so super rich like this is if superheroes uh well yeah yeah if superheroes were like automatically there's no point going into that it's so absurd you just can't even like you might have counters you can have to it's like okay you know whatever it's fine okay okay maybe a little more extreme than i would go but yeah i get it won't somebody please think of the children it's good that you play these clips yeah it's very important it is what's the was it all superhero fans are nazis in response to this video the response to this video rather because it seems like it might be it might they might be related i'm gonna i'm just gonna guess here feeling more nazi by the moment especially if it was recent well if he's gonna watch this response of course but then it all makes oh we're nazi he doesn't like to recognize that i exist he's not something if i could get you about it patrick will is watching an efap episode i think he he would be very upset his brain would explode implode it would do a plode of some kind uh he watches all these are you kidding me he cleans his gut while he watches them he doesn't he's not a con owner i love superhero comics and superhero movies and i love that this genre has become so embrace admitted nazi right there race by history audiences fascist but we can't forget that at their core superheroes are inherently kind of silly uh there you go the silly trigger warning so i'm gonna call i'm gonna call super realistic i don't think we need the word so it out because you get the Iron Man could happen someday it could a billionaire who made weapons like and felt really bad about it that makes a suit it's revolutionary with technology has access to it's like that could happen so you must not be talking about realistic you must be talking about campiness i guess or just yeah because we've got ability right now and elon musk you know two sides yeah well i think jay silly so yeah oh yeah yeah i'm by the way i can't wait to see elon man elon's awesome he's gonna muskman gonna go to space in his space suit fire lasers the aliens over mar yeah he's gonna have like a harem on mars yeah yeah he's gonna establish a muskocracy absolutely these are stories about people who gain magical powers in freak accidents so it's that it's not real is that it is that it's not yeah everything silly that isn't real you dress in tight colorful costumes oh is that an important factor that this the costumes are tight what the fuck is this i like it when they're yeah i give themselves made-up nicknames oh man when you give yourself a a made-up name i guess all of you guys that would be really fucking weird wouldn't it if someone did that like you gave yourself a made-up nickname instead of your real name i would never give myself a makeup what a weird thing to do so silly and unrealistic i was called rags i was alpha of the litter i don't why would you even say this when like most of the time is to protect their identity like fort first and foremost why would you even make this from freaks like him i'm reason for yours to protect our identity it's funny because categorically there are more fake names if you will in chat than there are real ones it's like what this is kind of how we operate these days especially with how we have to stay inside all the time are you silly folk all of you with your silly names well i bet you with skin tight suits superheroes would be more childish if they could all run around with their own names and no one cared like oh look it's john the guy who's super powerful no one's ever gonna attack him while he's sleeping and could you believe what chaos the world would be if you were allowed to like legally change your name like that would be insane there's no way that would they'd ever allow that no no no that'd be ridiculous is it a bird is it a plant no it's john smith it's adam here he comes it's it's robert it's robert oh no robert criminals in the face it's so weird that they punch criminals in the face no one does that what a weird thing yeah i'd punch him in the the shoulder yeah yeah it's it's bizarre too because like this is superheroes are just the continuation of the hero mythology that has gone on through human history from its existence yeah and people like it when someone with an extraordinarily extraordinary circumstance can use it for good that's something we like right we're okay with that we give it a thumbs up it happens in real life before 1930 there was no superheroes yeah you can use a fucking faggot you'd have to just deal with the fact that everything sucked nobody did anything special ever with anything old stuff no matter how this and mythic and profound and gritty these stories can be oh my god there is always going to be that silliness at the heart of it no what is the silliness at the heart so first of all what if they don't have a silly costume and a silly name i was going to say all the things he defined are things that we can erase and maintain it being a superhero movie they they wear baggy outfit they wear their they use their real name they don't have a magical power they just have a power i don't even have suits yeah i was gonna say this this example's like a isn't punisher just a guy yeah he's wearing a skonish shirt so it's costume oh okay well if we take the skull off and he calls himself frank castle and not punisher looks like we did it prattrick by your own stupid system what is this also the way this camera is aimed is very this is a very angle wrong with not forget that when stan lee and jack curvy and uh steve ditko were creating marvel and making such a huge impact on comics uh with doing quote adult stories if you actually read those stories they are not adult stories they are silly and don't care what does that even mean tell me what you don't care yeah in the in context they were more adult than what they were getting before so it was a progression yeah right which is which is probably what i meant yeah it's not even be like jerry conway was there with roi thomas when you know it progressed again and it evolved and that's what we're in right now while it was evolving now it's devolving but for a long time it was evolving and it was very good mm-hmm more violent the brace that material we're embracing it at least in part because it gave them the freedom to to be silly you know to to embrace the silliness of these characters uh by the eye winking and the and the uh acknowledgement that it was silly that came with stan's commentary fine silly exactly i'm sorry yeah i know let me tell you what silly is wearing a tight costume you'll be like does he seem fun yeah like yeah he looks like the kind of person who would call fun things silly yeah as he as he runs his bank in 1915 that's supposed to be all written in london in the smoggy city and he forbids singing it's weird because patrick has like his patrick has his own point which is not fleshed out and kind of muddled we don't really understand what it is and then he keeps cutting to older guys who are basically saying back in my day comics were better because they were you know sillier back in my day and have nothing to do with patrick's point really i don't really know patrick has a point i think so yeah ralph's talking about and he's talking about comma books two completely different media we do get as you say self-conscious over time and we start looking for excuses for why it's really good stuff well it's really good stuff on its own terms so when what the fuck does that mean yeah what was that that's so confused i'm so confused here who's finding an excuse to like our stuff are you guys find looking for excuses to like your stuff i'm not yeah it's almost like oh man i love adam west batman so good but i want to make it better by making it gritty and then he's like you don't understand it was good enough itself i just be like okay you guys are all taught you need to define these terms i don't fucking anyone's talking about anymore do you think you talk about you just like it and you want to make something else you also like in which case more power to you but then the guy saying right hey it was already good i'd be like okay it could also be different right like i i'm so lost to the all of you you're all weird people like that isn't variety the price of life if it isn't great to have variety that's what i yeah what's going on here i'll need to think the same be pod people i want people i want all i want it all i want the silly i want the gritty i want the violent the gratuitous sex i want it all the conversation was cut off before the end guy a says i no longer want silly campy i want edgy because that would be good and then the guy says hey it was good before and that's where it ends it's like no no the guy should then said hey maybe it was good before but i want to make something else this good and different yeah oh shit yeah we could have all the good yeah let's do it let's have all the good guys more good can you have this guy saying fuck that that's not but that's a different argument the part you yeah you you put up a different robin though you can have that robin you can have a gritty adult robin then you can you can have this yeah yeah because this is the thing you have to be definitive about the problem is here we all see this we go oh my god how edgy of you to say fuck batman robin that's like the one of the people you don't expect it however there could be a context where robin is perfectly justifiable and saying fuck batman there wasn't driving around of course i don't believe for a second that titans justified it but you know i've been sold on it completely and stabbing people and dick with garden shoes yeah i'm also wearing a colorful span it's costume one of my viewers uh cut that to the teen titans theme of him him just stabbing the guy in the dick over and over again to the it's out there on the internet again he yeah edgy would be the word that comes to mind predominantly with this thing all righty he's i'll just google robin dick stabbing musical interlude it creates this dissonance it's trying very hard to be serious and adult but it's like a 13 year old's idea of what that's a different problem no it isn't that's a different problem anyway from what he's been talking about you're talking about being edgy for the sake of it not actually trying to portray adult stuff that's not what you you're you're making it sound like you can't do this you can't make robin and batman and superman and spider-man a mature thing because you end up with this it's like no that's a result of someone being incompetent being like isn't it edgy just stabs one of the dick that's a different thing patrick i always said teen titans needed more dick savings absolutely but adult clearly embarrassed about what it is it's so i would say it ain't it ain't embarrassed about what it is it is very confident about what it is it thinks it's doing great yeah problem is not it should be embarrassed but it isn't adult means it's so clearly embarrassed about what it is it's so afraid of being silly or childish that it ends up even more ridiculous it's like that's not why also if you want to say that after saying that silly is good you're now in trouble this is even more silly which is bad like wait a minute get a little bit crossed over here i don't know what's happening anymore ironically sing a nickel back song why even bringing i mean i agree that that is super cringe and i wouldn't let any of these people close to me how did you connect this like look at this other thing that's extremely cringe and embarrassing like how is this for an analogy making robin stab someone in the dick is like singing nickel back okay yeah all right okay i love land there is a moment batman versus superman that should have a nickel back song playing in it all of it's the moment when he's like mom your mom has to say nickel back should come up while he's saying that with martha you say that name take that scene to the next level you would have to admit it it would elevate it listen to this music it's so inspiring yes our moms have the same name we know comic books were dismissed for decades as dumb childish stuff and i remember when i was younger and i desperately wanted them to be taken seriously but this desperation is how you end up with comics like identity crisis dc's crossover event most of the story revolves around the reveal that years earlier book not a movie and he's also again it's not it's the execution clearly it's not actually the idea right every time dr lay he just refuses to acknowledge that of course it can work also we also have the fucking escape card that he gave us earlier which is well this is elsewhere patrick this is this is a what if that was fine yeah that was fine what a terrible video what wouldn't you have to be arguing that it ever works uh in order to make this argument that's the thing this video should be called why it sucks when people get really edgy it's lord edge patrick willams yeah and that's the other thing i probably end up disagreeing with that video because it's like really hard to be definitive about that sort of thing it's definitely a personal preference like i consider the dark saber too edgy but someone else would be like that's the fucking best thing ever it's like all right you do you supervillain dr light sexually assaulted elongated man's wife and then the justice league covered it up the entire thing is an agonizing attempt to cram quote unquote adult themes into inherently childish material it's not inherently childish yeah what is it silly you're childish you said silly earlier now you're saying it's childish and um when you was explaining it it's like a team member rapes somebody and the rest of the team covered up i assume for the sake of their image it's like that sounds pretty adult um and it could be very well executed for all we understand and it's something that could be relevant for something of a in a superhero wilderness like well this is meant for children though like oh i really don't think you've made a good argument in that case i don't know i thought he was gonna say it's really edgy but um i don't know that scenario does seem like you could make a really good story out of it yeah absolutely result is just unpleasant but i'll admit when i was is that your argument it's unpleasant yeah your argument about trying to cover up rape is unpleasant it's like yeah yeah right it sucks it's amazing to me that we have this 40 minute video so few points like he could make a distinction about why an identity crisis the sexual assault is stupid and why it works in watchmen but he just says no it just doesn't work just gross take my word for it yeah yeah it was popular i didn't sell the kids had good covers people were into it they were shocked it was there to shock but he's not like really he said the jla covered it up it was i don't know it was it was more of a mind wipe by satana we're not gonna go down that road though maker forget about it stuff but it's still wrong and then dc relaunched their universe like you know another year later so it didn't really happen oh wow again though like you could even just consider it that way a lot of people don't consider the sequel trilogy canon like no fuck that it's elseworld bullshit and they might even make that the case as time goes on who knows was 16 thought it was awesome the only way to establish its replacement it will become much more likely did you catch that once they realize that people will clap at anything he did the thing when i was when i was young i also thought it was cool but then i grew up like yeah he's done that before yeah he he likes to always yeah comics are super childish like he's constantly devaluing the things that he like yeah the whole medium but at the same time he's saying you know i you know back when i was a kid he was a super cringe and all that stuff but i thought it was cool but not me it's like he's looking down on the thing that he his livelihood is it is weird it seems like a consistency for him that he's like you uh i wanted to be sure but it's not i mean but it's okay to do a 41 minute whatever video on it which i don't think is silly at all but i mean based on your argument why are you talking about this much then if it's so silly and childish and you don't care you had to show off earlier yeah this is the guy who was recommended my video and said i'm not going to watch a five hour rant by some angry guy on youtube it's like oh okay i am okay yeah i'll watch it yeah i'm okay with an angry guy ranting go for it see what he's got to say earlier in the video he was saying that inherit like wearing a costume is inherently childish and yet he's wearing yeah he's wearing this costume to try to turtle this isn't nor a person clothes this is like yeah well look what i used to like violence when i was a kid but then i bought a turtleneck and grew up but imagine telling me that i was incapable of violence like i know this is absurd but jump into the iron man movie with patrick and he's like you're ridiculous look what you're wearing i imagine tody songers be like we mean it's like it protects me from bullets why are you saying this to me and like who says the iron man suit especially the iron man one looks like ridiculous it looks awesome what do you mean it does look awesome yeah when i was six i thought it was awesome the r-rated versions that work know how to navigate this dead pool leans into the silliness and absurdity and positions itself as a wacky and see so what he had to do was say don't do this but then the ones people liked dead pool logan etc he has to justify them he's like no they're okay though because they did it right because of this reason this yeah yeah yeah this reason but you know what he executed an individual story yeah this is what he should have figured out it's not that you shouldn't do it these are the exceptions it's the these guys didn't do what titans did which is stab a guy the dick over and over again to say fuck batman edgy cringe shit i mean basically he's this whole video is just critiquing zack snider and zack snider inspired dc stuff really yeah which is fine but don't don't make this broad label of all r-rated superheroes because he's like lamenting like oh people want r-rated x-men no but what you haven't proven why that would be a bad thing inherently other than saying you shouldn't be children shouldn't have to see that it's like okay hell and love joy that's all you're doing dark where you're within a classic superhero universe and logan which is as gritty and serious there you go makes that work by stripping away all the tropes and iconography of superheroes and shifting into an entirely different genre is he's not wearing a costume logan is the one that kind of falls entirely into his whole argument in in the it's a sequel technically speaking depends on how you view it right but you watch x-men one two three then you watch x-men origins wolverine then you watch the wolverine then you watch first class days of future past apocalypse and then this one or is it before apocalypse this one is point is yeah that there's a continuity this film relies on you having seen the others it references them the events in them so the idea that those films were meant absolutely not for the audience that this is exclusively for it just destroys his argument he's like no no no it's fine though because logan is like a where it's like you can't do this it's too late the child who watched x-men one watched this and went oh no mr patrick i'm so scared by how adult this has helped me you were right patrick they shouldn't be making films like logan and then patrick like no no no no people liked logan were allowed logan it's like oh yeah it's too late already erasing logan i thought he said it was a superhero genre and it's shifts into a different genre no this is still a superhero movie absolutely in in a darker action adventure that's that's all they are it's different genres that's why they can make them forever at this point and yeah you know all together it's secretly a western so here it's a western okay like i said at this point it's superheroes just something he brands when he doesn't like it it's when he likes he's like okay yeah it's not a superhero movie yeah it's not a superhero movie when i like it like logan's not a superhero movie because he's not a spandex but will bring here's the part i know is coming where people in the comments accuse me of being a hypocrite in other videos i'm advocating for your hypocrite in this video let alone other videos yeah it's fine we don't have to bring those into this makers to have creative freedom or i'm oh that's actually another angle yeah it would be cool if we let the artist really just try and do the thing with the thing i guess but um whatever he definitely feels that way about everything so be interested to see how he accounts for it i guess demanding that big franchise entertainment take more risks and move away from predictable homogeneity so why now am i imposing these restrictions on these characters and saying they have to be done a certain way well that's not really what i'm saying ah then you phrased it very poorly what i'm saying here is really less about the creators of these movies and shows and more about the audience which is where we talk uh you talk to them a bunch but yeah tell me how it's my fault you talk about pretentious audience's fault there's a bunch of angry white males enjoying violent comic books i seriously hope that's me okay i hope that's not always going with this i but i have to bug out but i want to hear this keep going okay i gotta hear to own the characters and there's something kind of selfish about demanding that they change to appeal to us as we you literally is this video that's literally this video patrick why are you so dumb you just spent the whole video so wait has patrick never made the argument that superheroes should become more diverse to reflect a diverse population i suppose he considers that modern year i suppose he considers that a different type of argument a different format because what he just said is we as grown up children now shouldn't advocate that it grows up with us we should instead allow it to stay for children and so they can enjoy it right how diverse batman is he probably like batman being black has no effect on this it's nothing to do with that but it's just fascinating because he spent the whole fucking video talking about what he wants it to be and he's like we shouldn't be so selfish as to demand that they get he remember he said when i was 13 i thought this too is like oh you don't need more well he's gone the full cycle he's like when i was younger i wanted them to be more violent so they should have been but now that i'm older i don't so they shouldn't be yeah it's like wait did you say that we're advocating for the reverse of that that we shouldn't be so selfish but you get to have what you want all right then it's the privations of discovering them the way we did they can still discover it the way you did yeah yeah it's okay never went away i discovered style was the same way my dad obviously not in the theater but still they're still making a you know child-oriented superhero content all the time i mean i know that again because yeah there's always kids there's more kids than ever i go to this example because it's just such a such a quintessential one but like they're at parents right now showing their children the ot from 78 like some it's a while ago okay maybe he still thinks it's the 70s where we couldn't we didn't have vhs's or or f***ing dvds or i don't know he's got a yellow turtleneck on so maybe yeah so men's trapped in the past the strongest argument you can make is like yeah but that's not just easily because he said discoverable as if like the things you stumble across on modern day media it's just like why is this a problem there is new content for kids always it's a market it makes lots of money there's always going to be content for kids well and they're ignoring the money side because if if the people who are making the superhero content start marketing marketing it towards the older generation they're doing that because they feel like that's where they can get an audience because maybe the younger generation isn't interested in this maybe they're more interested in anime or manga or all these other things off which are video games part of their appeal is that they're not um you know so age defined they're like you know you have like hunter hunter and my hero which go all over the place in terms of whether it's for children or i think what he needs to wake the f*** up is to have a son show him batman like the he had his neighbor read and then the son is like this is lame and he's like what what i don't like this i'm sorry i just thought yeah i'm not interested in this you're like no because this is the solution to his problem if you want your son or whatever just discover whatever thing it's like they can go discover whatever they want but you can be like hey son i'd like you to see something that i think is amazing and if you have a good relationship with your son you should be right the tips of them checking it out it's how i got to see somebody great movies i was like yeah dad i trust your taste let's do it look you'll be okay but yeah he had these are the movies that we had to watch that we had a we had a bin with all the vhs's in it and so that was my selection yeah and it was a good one you can pass this stuff on because this seems to be his concerns like no kids aren't going to enjoy classic children friendly batman's like they still can't it's still there there's tons of it there yeah take your pick owners over fiction that existed long before us and will theoretically oh you're protecting it for the children on behalf of the child that's what i mean guardian of the children he's suggesting this is a horrible crime being their future like children grow up and they pretend on the tv and sax not as batman says do you bleed and they're like oh my god this is i don't like this guys no weirdo my son that is not batman here he is and then at west is going yep i can picture the sun being equally like what the fuck is that what the fuck is this is this a joke it is this a parody this is such a non problem he's like you'll be fine you can yep turns out people gravitate towards the stuff they like anyway so that's how we know they like it it's kids who grew up watching duck tails demanded that the recent reboot be catered specifically to them as adults with scrooge mcduck like snow that should give you the answer actually so when you think of a modern adult friendly duck tails none of us are like i want to see duck tails but with violence and gore the superhero content showing we we talked about this right at the beginning it comes full circle the actual consequences of taking people down in a justice system as a vigilante we're starting to get to adult topics we just are yes how it deserves this and how do they do that and who watches duck tails a bunch of ducks discussing things that happen to the boy it's like of course that can stay wrong with talking animals smaller i didn't say that there is i'm saying it is not inherently as as adult topics in terms of how should we deliver justice in a system for society what we're dealing with someone who's super powerful it's like he pretends that duck tails and batman have like the same level of discussion and topics and inherently tied to whatever they're obviously batman doesn't have as much as duck tails absolutely duck tails is so much more adult it's just like yeah oh my god like this was this was clearly he's going after the audience here this is his got sure it's like you wouldn't expect this would you this it's it's the audience this is a bunch of plebs you're a bunch of idiots well he was the one who said you're watching movies wrong maybe his whole argument is that he's mad at people who are overly critical of like star wars and things he likes he's like it's all these people if they didn't like the content if this content was geared at children then i wouldn't have to deal with the criticism because the children would just consume it and not question it maybe it's a small man argument yeah this sounds like a real weird argument that maybe comes from another place uh but i got i got a cut out guys sorry i hate to break the momentum this is take on his head gary one one long issue so i said i kind of want to see it already at duck tails i'm like hey you know if you if you want to do it you go ahead and make it see what people have to say about it um but yeah uh before you go thank you so much for joining us mr. nude rotic and do you want to um do you want to tell people about about yourself where you are where they can find you what you're up to oh my god well i'm gonna go spend some time with my son craziness i know uh maybe we'll watch joker or you know fight club yes uh yeah my name is gary i have a channel nerd rotic i make a video more than mauler but less than most people once a week and do a lot of live streaming so uh check me out if you'd like uh and subscribe to all these guys too they're great and uh thanks for having me on i appreciate it yeah man thanks for being here and uh we will catch you take care man take care guys oodaloo bye bye yeah link in description and chat subscribe to nerd rotic check out Friday night this is so cliche man he's going after the audience now it's just this is like the he thinks he's one video he thinks he's like you're thinking ahead duck tails but they've beaten the shit out of people it's like you wouldn't want that would you so now you understand like whoa first of all yeah we might do our words has to cater to you why do you think star wars has to cater to you like that's really the subtext here but like you i guess let's go let's go crazy when you the poo it's a strong man it's totally a strong man you could have a really adult winnie the pooh episode you know like uh yeah i'm not i'm not even going to demand that i'm not going to the violence or the sexual just like um uh ior said in world war two winnie the jew i went into some adult topics i was going to say we're all adults here Christopher robin Christopher robin gets sucked into nazism but you know we've just highlighted the value of parody too like having like oh yes big time if someone said i'm creating an r-rated winnie the pooh you'd be like that is not what we do the pooh's for you like exactly that's why it's going to be so good because it's going to be so fucking funny to watch like oh this video is terrible it doesn't account for so much immediate it appears i've been diagnosed with herpes oh no that's what you that's what you get pooh for sticking your cock and all that money so sticky i thought it had medicinal properties that would make me grow i thought it would cure the herpes i should have just put more stuffing in it honestly because i'm a fucking stuffed animal i'd fund that oh yes james oh yes uh what was it what was i even saying yeah just like the these creators often look at us as t