english: In more than one instance in the last few years, I have seen people of good intent completely talking past each other on this topic.
non_english: うぐぅうぐぅうぐぅうぐぅうぐぅうぐぅうぐぅうぐぅうぐぅうぐぅうぐぅうぐぅうぐぅうぐぅうぐぅうぐぅうぐぅうぐぅうぐぅうぐぅうぐぅうぐぅうぐぅうぐぅうぐぅうぐぅうぐぅうぐぅぐぅうぐぅうぐぅうぐぅ