Mr. Mann. Now, is there such a difference in fact in the freight
rates ?

Mr. Spencer. No, sir; 1 do not believe there was. It would involve
an examination of every waybill that was made during that 3'ear to
finally answer that question; but you can group the information and
arrive at it very closelj' and approximately.
Mr. Mann. Was there such a reduction in the general average of
freight rates between 1896, when the Interstate Commerce Commis-
sion claimed it had authority to fix rates, and 1903, when it admitted,
by the Supreme Court decision, that it did not have authority? Was
there such a reduction during that period of time as would make a dif-
ference of more than 1160,000,000 in freight?

Mr. Spencer. No, sir; I do not think there was that difference in
the tariffs. ' I think the difference was partially made up, just as I have
stated about the $155,000,000. I must saj', in all fairness, that it was
partially made up in the difference in the character of the movements,
and not entirely in the rates. These rates which had been in effect
were not changed to that extent. I have no hesitation in asserting
that the average changes of rates wherever changes took place were
reductions instead of increases. There may have been a few increases,
but the great majority were decreases and always are.
The Chairman. Proceed, Mr. Spencer.
Mr. TowNSEND. Did you assent to the proposition or statement of
Mr. Mann that the Interstate Commerce Commission had the power,
really, under the act, to declare what was a reasonable rate ?

Mr. Mann. I said " claimed to have " the power.
