On the path to creating more inclusive and diverse workplaces, the value of courage and bravery cannot be overstated. For many people, speaking out against injustice, racism, sexism and xenophobia, although necessary, is inconceivable and frightening. How can this fear be overcome? How can people become more comfortable using their voice to deconstruct systems of oppression? One of the best examples of using one’s voice to shine a light on injustice occurred April 12 of 2018 in the Philadelphia Starbucks incident that grabbed the public’s attention. Michelle Saahene and Melissa DePino happened to be in Starbucks that day and both witnessed the incident taking place. Michelle was the first to speak up and then Melissa posted a video of the incident, which went viral with over 13 millions views. Following the incident, Starbucks CEO an issued an apology, and more than 8,000 Starbucks locations shut down for mandatory unconscious bias training. Michelle and Melissa, who did not know each other prior to the incident, have since started a national movement called From Privilege to Progress, which was created with the goal to “desegregate the public conversation about racism.” They sat down to discuss what happened on that fateful day, what caused both of them to speak out and what others can do in and out of their workplaces to create a more inclusive environment.

Janice Gassam: Could you briefly explain what happened on April 12 at that Philadelphia Starbucks?

Michelle Saahene: It’s interesting because…I am the only one in that Starbucks who saw the whole thing happen…I’m the only one on the planet that saw it from beginning to end…I saw them walk in the Starbucks…we were the only persons of color and when other persons of color walk in, you take notice of them…I watched them walk up to the barista, and they asked to use the bathroom…and [the barista] said ‘it’s for paying customers only’…when she walked away…she mumbled something to herself…and I was like ‘what did she just say?’ But in those moments…it’s really important to check yourself. So, I put my head down and within about 10 minutes or less, the cops were there…I saw [the cops] go up to the barista…and I heard her lie and say, ‘those two gentlemen in the corner are refusing to leave.’ After she said that, they just b-lined for those guys. There was no more questioning on her part…there was no more ‘what happened’…I looked over and saw [the guys’] faces…[the police] start telling [the two men] that they have to leave, and they were like ‘why? We’ve been here for 10 minutes.’ The men stood their ground and said, ‘we’re not leaving until you explain to us what is going on and why we’re being asked to leave in the first place.’ First it was two cops, then four cops, then six cops, then eight cops…and they put them in handcuffs…so, I stood up…I started saying things…and the only other person that was yelling was…their friend that showed up and said ‘this is racist.’ I actually…walked up to the cop and I said, ‘why are you doing this?’ and he actually told me ‘go ask the barista’…I walked up to the barista and I said, ‘why did you call the cops?’ and her face…got crimson red and she said, ‘I can’t really say…’ I walked back to my table and I packed up all my stuff…Melissa and I…were not sitting close to each other…she stood up and said ‘I, I come here all the time…no one ever asks me to leave, and you know why.’

Melissa DePino: What happened that day…I’m the middle-aged white lady that tweeted the video, yet the person who got my attention, who spoke up, is this young black woman, named Michelle…Michelle was the person to speak up that day…essentially I just amplified what she did and it got all this attention…as you know, when a white person speaks up, it gets all this attention…people don’t hear or believe a black woman when she’s says it, but when I say it…it goes viral with 13 million views…

I live in this neighborhood. It’s…maybe 72% white…and I think more than 50% have a master’s degree or more…it’s a very particular kind of neighborhood. I was walking through the neighborhood and decided to stop at the Starbucks. I saw these two young black men…I saw them, literally a few minutes later, police come walking up to them…first two, then four, then six…eight at the end. I saw their friend, who is a white guy…come in and say, ‘what did they do?’ Then I heard Michelle. Michelle was like ‘I saw everything! They didn’t do anything.’ To be perfectly honestly, I never spoke up that day. I’m just some regular person…I really don’t know what compelled me to stand up and join in with Michelle that day but all I know is that I saw something in a different way than I had ever seen before in that moment…I felt angry for them, I felt ashamed that this was happening…I saw it through a different lens than I had ever seen any situation in my life. I knew, intuitively that those things happen but I never had it happen to me before in a way that I could actually see it…there was a woman sitting next to me…that was video-ing…Michelle and I…decided that we needed to walk out of the Starbucks…and I remember saying ‘someone needs to put this on social media.’ And the girl next to me, who had recorded, she didn’t want to…so I said, ‘just send it to me.’ She texted it to me, and I wrote this caption, where I was essentially calling it out as racism, and I put it on Twitter and I just went home…within 24 hours, this sort of tsunami of viral-ness hit me…I really firmly believe that the reason it got so much mainstream media attention is because I’m a white person and when white people speak up, it’s so rare and our networks are so segregated that it gets attention.

Gassam: Why do you think that those with privilege in our country have such difficulty speaking up when they witness discrimination happening?

DePino: We have been socialized, and I speak as a white woman in this country, to see things through my lens…we don’t often listen to or hear or believe black people when they say these things…we’re afraid we don’t know what the real story is…we might say the wrong thing…we might be ashamed or embarrassed if we do say something and it’s not really what we thought it was…we think that it’s not our place…we think we don’t know enough to say something. There’s so much…we think that we’re going to get judged for it. We’re so afraid of judgement…we’re so afraid people are going to say that we’re racist…we’re just afraid to talk about race, in general. We’re taught not to talk about race…if you’re colorblind, you’re denying the experience of someone walking around this country in a different color skin. We’re taught that if you’re not racist, then you don’t talk about it. The truth is, if you’re don’t talk about it, then you’re not part of the solution and your silence is contributing to the problem…it’s hard to speak up…people feel like, ‘I would never do that,’ but the truth is…it’s actually not that hard…you just feel like it’s hard but if you do it, you realize, that wasn’t hard at all.

Steven M. Falk of the Philadelphia Inquirer

Gassam: What do you say to the people that witness things like this, maybe not to this magnitude, in their workplace and they say they’re afraid to speak up or that they don’t know how?

Saahene: Of course it’s scary…in the moment…but if you don’t do anything in the moment, you are part of the problem. If you don’t do anything in that moment, you are not part of the solution…I would say, find it in your heart and your soul to put yourself in the position of that person and what would you want someone to do for you? For your mother, for your father, for your family? This is about us looking out for one another. You need to treat people the way you want to be treated. If you don’t know what to say, it could be as simple as saying ‘that’s not okay with me,’ ‘don’t do that in front of me.’ Just asking the question ‘why?’ is so powerful because in that moment, people have to reflect.

DePino: I would say…things that are worth it are often hard to do. Even if what you can do is as simple as saying ‘this isn’t okay with me,’ and you can’t go further than that…whatever level you can make known that whatever is happening is not okay, that makes a difference…once you start, it gets easier. Besides that, it’s so necessary…if women are the only ones fighting sexism, then we’re fighting against something that we can only go so far…we need men that are going to stand with us…they’re the ones that hold the power…what I’d like to remind people is, when we say things like ‘you have privilege,’ that’s not an accusation…that’s an opportunity…it’s unproductive to feel guilty, or ashamed or defensive about it…what is productive is when you take it and use it to then make progress against inequality in the country…don’t feel guilty about having [privilege], feel guilty about not using it.

Gassam: What have you both done since this incident happened to make sure that the conversation continues and that we are using our voice and our platforms to deconstruct systems of oppression?

Saahene: So…we [founded] From Privilege to Progress. It’s a national anti-racist movement to get people to use their privilege for progress. We asked our followers to do three really simple things. We asked them to educate themselves, speak up in your everyday life, and amplify the voices of people of color…we do that mainly through social media campaigns, we do speaking events…we do some workshops…we do it on social media because we realize that social media is very segregated. Even though people of color as posting their stories all the time, we found a few studies that said if you are white, it’s likely that your social media network is 91% white and if you’re black, it’s 88% black…so when we’re posting the stories, we’re just literally not crossing over. We’re not seeing each other’s stories. So, we ask people to come to our page, and just simply share the story to their network…we believe that our experience was super powerful. We were two very regular women, who did a thing and got Starbucks to close 8,000 stores…we just ask you to do the work internally yourself…you can fight racism at all different levels…I think where the problem lies is that people are trying to change the system without changing the individual people…they forget that the systems are made up of individual people. You can put all the D&I policies you want into work and implement them all you want but nothing will ever change if the individual mindsets of the people that you’re employing aren’t changed.

DePino: The movement that Michelle and I started…what we do is we continue the conversation that started that day amongst white Americans who hadn’t seen or been paying attention…we work at a really high level to create awareness and inspire action. We say there are three things you can do. They’re very basic things…the first thing is to learn…there are so many things we haven’t learned about the way this country was built and designed and perpetuated…that we don’t learn in school. The second thing is to speak up in your everyday life. And that’s sort of a muscle that you have to develop…the third one is to amplify the voices of people of color…and to use the privilege that you have to amplify that so that other people in your network can be exposed to this information…we work to open the door for people.

Gassam: How do you overcome the resistance that you will inevitably experience when you talk about race and have these difficult conversations?

Saahene: Usually in those conversations, we turn it back to…privilege. And get people to reflect on privileges that they have that if you’re a person of color, you don’t have. In those moments, it’s really hard for those people to deny what they already know…Melissa and I like to point out that…we’re not trying to assault anyone…it’s wonderful thing to have privilege…in those moments, I usually admit my biases first…we have biases—it’s just important to recognize them and work against that. I’ve shocked myself before where I think someone’s racist, and next thing you know, they’re asking me out…we just have to realize that we live in a very racialized country and all we are doing is asking you to be aware of those biases because they exist…confront them…let’s talk about them together…the resistance is hard to get by but we try to emphasize that…there’s nothing negative about [privilege]…Melissa was able to post a video and the whole world was able to see that…do you want to be part of the solution, or do you not?

DePino: There are a lot of people that don’t care and I don’t know if we can get them to care…sadly, but what I will tell you is that my work is with the people who are curious enough to care, who say they care…whose hearts break for Sandra Bland’s family, for Philando Castile’s girlfriend or child…who see it and go ‘oh that’s awful—but what can I do?’ Those are the people that I am working to move…through the continuum. So that instead of saying, ‘I don’t know what to do about it, I hate it, it’s awful,’ they can actually do small things in their everyday life that will start to chip away at this insidious system that affects all of us…some of these people are willfully ignorant…but they don’t want to be. They want to feel like they’re doing something for humanity…we all want to feel like a good person…before April 12th, I didn’t know what to do…then I got faced with this situation, I saw things through a different lens then I figured out what to do…everybody should have the privileges that I have…if I don’t speak up and say ‘everybody should have what I have,’ then I’m complicit in the problem.

For more information about From Privilege to Progress, click here.

This interview has been lightly edited for clarity.
