Interesting Analogy in the breakdown of Hybrids and Electric Cars

Discussion in 'The Coffee Shop ~ Chit Chat' started by 09Z71, Dec 21, 2010.

  1. 09Z71

    09Z71 Rockstar 100 Posts

    because i work for a company completely powered by solar energy, i was asked to speak to a group of teenagers at a "fresh minds create fresh ideas" solution program about electric powered automobiles and was asked to break the idea down into a simple analogy, and i thought it was pretty good, so i thought I'd share it.

    here is the analogy referring to the Prius, Chevy Volt and a Hummer in relation to food. (what a great concept for teens)

    -a Hummer or any other big V8 vehicle is like a delicious double cheeseburger with all the toppings. it is desirable, but they are very unhealthy to you (the environment)

    -a Chevy Volt is like a gourmet salad with some healthy flavorful dressing. not as desirable as a big burger, but very tasty and in the long run much more healthy for you. this is because the Volt is not only fuel efficient, it is also a beautiful sedan with great value and nice features. it is also exciting to look at and apparently nice to drive.

    -however, (sorry if I'm offending anyone who has a Prius, it is just my opinion from research, as sourced by Prius drivers) a Prius is like a plain, cold, hard cheeseburger. undesirable, but also bad for you (the environment, because of the procedures used to build Hybrid batteries) and in the long run will not benefit you. a hybrid battery will wear out after 7-10 years. after that, you are left with an underpowered gas powered car. it would be unsellable because of the reason just stated above. also, a conventional/two mode hybrid is a wrong follow-through, because the engine is the dominant energy source with a battery assist. what a better idea for a Hybrid is a vehicle that you plug in to charge and there is a gas engine for emergency situations when the battery runs out of charge, and the gas engine would not be the dominant energy source.

    this is my breakdown of Hybrid vehicles based on experience. this is my opinion, and although it may not be a fact that a Prius is a terrible car, I did research and talked to a few Prius owners, and they all said that they did not really want to drive their Prius, but it was more of an obligation to "save the earth"
  2. stephan

    stephan Rockstar 4 Years 5000 Posts

    Good write up 09. I especially liked the ref. to the Prius. The only Prius owner I ever had contact with, was a guy I called about buying a Fooseball table from. He was giving me directions to his house & said "when you get on my street just look for the dead Prius parked in front." ha ha ha... The battery was finished & they couldn't afford a new one, & there was also something wrong with the gas half. He said it had been sitting useless & unsellable for 6 months.

    BTW, what burger analogy would you use for a GM/Chevy truck? :)
  3. 09Z71

    09Z71 Rockstar 100 Posts

    in response to both of your points, Hydrogen is a sort of "last resort" alternative. you are right, that Hydrogen is like helium and the tank level would lower, but only by a small bit after a few weeks. i think we should have a go at full electric vehicles that are charged by solar power, rather than the gasoline with electric assist deal.

    my analogy for a GM truck is that they are like Red Bull. pretty bad for you and all the healthy salad eaters hate you for having one, but sometimes it is part of a diet supplement that you need to have every day to survive.
  4. phoebeisis

    phoebeisis Epic Member 5+ Years 1000 Posts

    Hah- Prius haters here huh.

    There is plenty of evidence that Prius batteries have very long lives- show us any real evidence that the batteries are dying early?
    The reason you haven't heard of Prius battery problems is because they are sooooo rare.A BP costs about $3000 to replace(or $700 if you use salvage like I would-besides in most places it has 8 year warranty-EPA regs of some sort require the long warranty)
    The battery BS you are referring to is the mining of Nickle-heh,almost every piece of steel also has nickle in it.Prius batteries aren't any bigger deal than any other nickle metal hydride batteries. In a few years most hybrids will probably switch to Lithium batteries-much better energy density, but 3x the cost now.

    You don't understand how a Prius works. It will not run with a dead traction battery.
    You are mixing the Honda hybrids up with the Toyota hybrids.
    Honda hybrid system will run with a dead battery pack.
    Honda has had HUGE problems with various battery packs, and some problems with the CV transmissions they use with their hybrids.

    The Prius is EXTREMELY RELIABLE- look it up-don't spout BS- give us some numbers.

    Now the Prius is a dull car- basically an appliance-my ancient 1998 Suburban is more fun .

    The Volt is a good effort, but it has some shortcomings. It isn't really meant to make money, it is meant to get some plug in cars on the hy, get some real world experience with this type hybrid- driven by an electric motor supplied by a battery which can be recharged on the fly with a 1.4 liter ICE.
    The problems-which eventually will be "made better"
    1)$41,000 msrp- dropped to $34,000 with the $7500 TC.Base Prius is $22000
    2) It gets 36 mpg-mixed- on gasoline- Prius gets about 46 mpg mixed
    3) Gets 1 mile per 350 WATTHRS(3 miles per KWHr)- The Plug in Prius gets 1 mile per 250 watt hrs( 4 miles KWHr- 2.5 cents per mile at 10 cents KWHr)

    The Volt will have at least a 40 mile plug in range- plug in prius 14 mile range, but $10,000 cheaper to buy.

    The Volt's main current problem is cost, weight(3700 lbs-hence the poorer fuel economy). It will eventually have a better ICE, and it will also eventually be able to drive the wheels DIRECTLY with the ICE( it has been built with that in mind-patent already in place, and most of the hardware has been set up with that in mind).
    The reason you would want to drive the wheels directly off the ICE would be to get better hy mpg-just like GMs Two mode hybrid system. In fact the Volt is an awful lot like Toyota's system and GMs two mode hybrid.
    GMs two mode hybrid system has a FE advantage over the Toyota HSD system because it can directly drive the wheels with the ICE without have to put some of the ICE torque thru the system to "make" electricity. Unfortunately GMs current Two mode hybrids have HUGE markups on them-$8000 over standard systems vs maybe $3500 more for Toyota's system.

    The Prius is a dull vehicle, but it is EXTREMELY RELIABLE and the BS about the batteries being environmental problems is BS-.
    Most folks buy Prius because they get great mpg-nothing to do with saving the planet- it is to save $$- and to send any less $$(via oil sales) to various foreign countries that use the $$ to build nukes to drop on our heads( Iran, the other ME countries, Venezuela-all hate our guts)

    Eventually there will be more Plug in vehicles-running almost completely on USA energy-coal, NG, NUKES, wind.Wind is waaaaay ahead of solar in respect to commercially viable electrical power plants. We-USA- have lots and lots of viable wind sites- most in the world. Commercial wind power is viable now(just drive across TX)- solar is still years off-too expensive.

    PS Prius haters- yeah it is dull but 50 mpg!!
    PPS- I'm taking all you Prius haters off my Christmas list (wait I mean Winter Holiday List)
    The Volt is a first step (actually second for GM-EV 1 ETC) in moving to electrical cars. The battery packs are the problem now- expensive and not much range- but over time they will get better range and lower cost) The Volt also needs a better- more efficient-generator motor-the 1.4 is OK but waaay bigger and less efficient than optimal. They-GM originally planned to use a 3 cyl TD for the generator-GM makes lots of very efficient small diesels for the Euro market.The TD was too expensive for now.
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2010
  5. stephan

    stephan Rockstar 4 Years 5000 Posts

    LOL Charlie, I'm not a Prius hater. Like I said I only know about one. It just happend to be a dead one. I don't know enough about them to hate them so please don't take me off your Christmas list. BTW I'd like a big screen tv this year:great:
  6. phoebeisis

    phoebeisis Epic Member 5+ Years 1000 Posts

    The Volt has a gasoline only EPA hy of about 36 mpg. This means real life it will easily get about 40 mpg at 65 mph. I think the tank is about 9 gallons- so you have a 360 mile range on gasoline only not bad. Granted not the 900 + miles my Suburban gets, but then 44 gallons is a heck of a lot of gas!

    I would rate the Volt as much more than just a commuter car- it can be a family car just like a Cobalt. Granted folks who can spend $40,000 on a small car usually have more than one car.

    The Leaf is really limited with a 80 mile or so range.It is REALLY SLOW TO CHARGE- 6-7 HOURS with 220 Volts-much longer with 110.I think the BP is 25 KWHrs and it only recharges 3000 watt hrs per hour-15 amps or so I think.I thnk the BP is actually more than 25 KWH(maybe 32 or so), but it can discharge 25 KWHr.
    The Leaf really is strictly a commuter car.The Volt aspires to be a full family car.

    The Volt is a good initial effort at a fancier sort of hybrid-the plug in with ICE generator.The 40 mile range was pretty smart, but I would have gone for 25 miles and had a cheaper lighter bp and lighter vehicle.GM is considering a 5 door hatch version of the Cruze(Euros have the hatch), maybe they will do the same with the Volt

    No question We need to get off foreign energy. We have lots of wind potential which is supposed be competitive at 4 cents KWHr to generate. We-the USA- have more "usable" wind potential than any other country- lots of coastline(always blowing on coasts) and the windy TX,OK etc.
    We'll see.We sure can't continue to make various enemy states rich while bleeding ourselves dry sending out $1,000,000,000 /day for the 12 million barrels we import(most from Canada/Mexico- but no matter where you buy you are supporting enemy states that sell oil)
    The CO2 is another consideration, but I'm mainly concerned with getting off foreign oil, and using less oil in general.

    Stephan- A Big Screen huh, yeah we'll see!!

    The Prius is strictly an appliance-like a COROLLA or a Cobalt- but combined with a big, cheap, used Suburban it is the perfect combination.

    09Z71- didn't mean to be so harsh, but the "environmental havoc" the Prius is supposed to cause is strictly BS. It is usually related to an old Nickle mine in Canada that was mined with old fashioned methods.Besides it isn't as if Prius batteries are the only users of nickle! It basically a lie/smear that has been repeated to death-all the Prius batteries will be recycled because they are worth a fair amount of $$- not because the GOV has to force recycling.
    In truth the best FE economy car for the $$ might be the 6 speed MT Cruze Eco- EPA rated 42 mpg hy-means it will easily get 47 mpg at 65 mph-not too shabby for $18,000.
  7. Jimmeh

    Jimmeh Epic Member 5+ Years 500 Posts

    This is the only part of your post I saw (not really, I actually read the whole thing, but I couldn't not reply to this)

    You're telling us that your 98 Suburban gets 20.454545454545454545454545 MPG's (based on if you got exactly 900 miles on 44 gallons of gas). I need proof! And if it is true, how in the hell do you do it?
  8. stephan

    stephan Rockstar 4 Years 5000 Posts

    LOL Jimmeh, Charlie could squeeze an extra 3mpg out of my sled just by his different driving style. I get 17+ mpg freeway with 4:10 gears & .70 overdrive, but he could easily get 20-21 with it just by driving style. Different vehicles & different drivers puts the manufacturers gov mpg stats all over the map.

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