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Subject: Re: 託する
From: TAKASUGI Shinji (tssf.airnet.ne.jp)
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 02:23:39 GMT
References: 1, 2, 3

I had forgotten to say one thing: we are dealing with verbs of an on-reading kanji and -suru. (こい) する, for instance, has no unstability like (あい) する, because the former is the compound of the noun 恋 and the verb suru.

A. (だれ) かに 恋してる？ (Do you have a crush on somebody?)
B. うん、してる。 (Yes, I do.)

A. 誰かを 愛してる？ (Do you love somebody?)
B. うん、*してる。
B. うん、愛してる。 (Yes, I love somebody.)

> > Just for your interest, verbs like (たく) する, which consist of a kanji and the verb -suru, are quite unstable in modern Japanese. They can be group I verbs. I would say 託す, a group I verb, instead of 託する, a suru verb.
> > 1. Commonly used as suru verbs: (あっ) する, (いっ) する, (はん) する, etc.
> > 2. Commonly used as group I verbs except the nonpast form: (あい) する (you say 愛さない, 愛せ, and 愛そう, not *愛しない, *愛しろ, or *愛しよう, though you can say both 愛する and 愛す), (よう) する, etc.
> > 3. Commonly used as group I verbs (-す): () す, 託す, etc.
> > 4. Commonly used as group II verbs (-じる): (あん) じる, (えん) じる, (おう) じる, etc.
> > 5. Commonly used as group II verbs (-せる): only () せる (influenced by () せる)

> 1. Would it be accurate to say that the suru verbs with a geminate are always used as suru verbs, for example, 圧する, 逸する, (くっ) する, (はっ) する, (ばっ) する, etc.?

Yes. Verbs with -っする are commonly -suru verbs. You can use them as group I verbs, however. It depends on your style, not on verbs.

> 2. That's interesting. I can't recall ever having heard or seen either 愛する or 要する in any of those forms, but now I can keep an ear/eye out for them.

要さない and 要しない are both heard, though 愛しない is never used.

> 3. I had just assumed that those types of verbs were used for a more classical flavor, like (せい) す or (しゅく) す. Interesting to know that that isn't the case.

You can't tell whether 制す is a -suru verb or a group I verb in formal Japanese.

> 4. Don't most of these also have a voiced <suru> version, for instance, 案ずる, (めい) ずる, 応ずる, 演ずる, etc.? Is the <zuru> version just used for nonpast affirmative? I can't recall having come across an inflected 命ずる, for instance.

Right. -ずる always becomes a group II verb today, but you can also use -ずる for the plain nonpast. However, most forms of a -suru verb and the corresponding group II verb are the same, like 命じない, 命じた, and 命じろ, and you can't tell the difference.

The kanji that ends or ended with a nasal consonant ("n" or "ng" in Mandarin) vocalizes the following -する. Exceptions include (かん) する and (はん) する.

> 5. This brings up a question I have about what seems to be a passive form of suru verbs that takes a different form. For instnance, I see 科せられる where I would expect 科される, or 発せられる where I would expect 発される. Am I just completely missing the picture, or are these verbs in some way affected like 魅せる was?

科せられる and 発せられる are the correct passive forms of the -suru verbs 科する and 発する, while 科される and 発される are the correct passive forms of the group I verb 科す and 発す.

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