Talk:Circular reasoning

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Circular Reasoning = Begging the Question?



Circular Science



Traddles raised this argument:





I see no difference in your two statements. Perhaps you could expand on this argument a bit. I had never heard this argument before, I do find it rather intriguing. I do think you missed an important caveat:


Of course, one would need a good reason to toss these "assumptions", but there is nothing suggesting that this good reason won't be discovered today.

I think it's an unfounded assumption that one must always start from an assumption. I don't see why one can't start with observing a fact, and moving on to theory, rather than start with theory and move to facts. In base 10, 2+2=4. I don't see a problem with starting from an assumption, but I do have an issue with the idea that conclusions drawn from an argument based on that assumption can then be used to support that assumption in any way. I do take issue with the idea that science is incapable of even identifying an assumption, which seems to be necessary in order to shoe-horn science into the category of circular reasoning. Rivalarrival 10:02, 19 September 2008 (CDT)

Ok, I will put it to you in more general terms... World-view 'W' begins with a basic assumption 'A'. From 'A' proponents of 'W' draw conclusions and build a system of logic/knowledge. This logic/knowledge is not absolute of course because it is based on an assumption. Now, within 'W' a conclusion 'C' is reached. 'C' happens to confirm 'A'. Obviously if proponents of 'W' claimed that this is a true confirmation that 'A' MUST be true then they are using circular reasoning. If however they say "This is consistent with 'W' and every fact that we learn which is consistent with 'W' makes it stronger". Obviously 'A' can never be "proven" 100% but with every fact/conclusion that is found to be consistent with it that beginning assumption becomes more solid.
Now, am I talking about science here or the christian faith? The presuppositional apologists follow a very similar methodology as scientists do.
in response to: "I think it's an unfounded assumption that one must always start from an assumption. I don't see why one can't start with observing a fact, and moving on to theory..." well, in this example you do begin with the assumption that your observations are trustworthy. Traddles 10:42, 19 September 2008 (EST)

"'...I don't see why one can't start with observing a fact, and moving on to theory...' well, in this example you do begin with the assumption that your observations are trustworthy." Point taken, but pointing out that I happened to start with an assumption does not imply that all worldviews must start with assumptions.

Back to the article - A necessary component of circular reasoning is that the conclusion implies the assumption. Your latest edit qualifies your argument with this:

  1. ...because the scientist does not claim that the conclusion validates the assumption, only that it is consistent with it.

It seems to me that your argument now fails to meet the definition of circular reasoning by implying that the conclusion is not used to support the assumption. Rivalarrival 10:26, 19 September 2008 (CDT)

Ahh, I see what is happening here. There is the subtle difference between circular reasoning properly defined "using a conclusion to prove the assumption" and the scientific method which is "using a conclusion to show consistency with the assumption thus making it a stronger and stronger assumption". From these definitions we can not say that the presuppositional apologist employs circular reasoning but that it's ok. Instead we should say that the presuppositional apologist (and probably other apologists) employ a methodology that can _seem_ like circular reasoning but which is in fact a variation of the scientific method. Traddles 11:35, 19 September 2008 (EST)

I agree completely. Rivalarrival 13:30, 19 September 2008 (CDT)

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